If you think racism is gone....

[MannyIsGod]

http://politicalwire.com/archives/2011/04/29/lawmaker_says_minorites_dont_work_hard.html?utm_so urce=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+PoliticalWire+%28Political+Wi re%29

During a debate over affirmative action, Oklahoma state Rep. Sally Kern (R) said that minorities earn less than white people because they "didn't want to work hard in school," according to KOCO-TV.

Said Kern: "We have a high percentage of blacks in prison, and that's tragic, but are they in prison just because they are black or because they don't want to study as hard in school? I've taught school, and I saw a lot of people of color who didn't study hard because they said the government would take care of them."

Kern added that women earn less than men because "they tend to spend more time at home with their families." She later apologized for her remarks.

Who the fuck elected WC?

[boutons_deux]

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178494

[clambake]

what did you expect?

[MannyIsGod]

Link above is bad.

http://politicalwire.com/archives/2011/04/29/lawmaker_says_minorities_dont_work_hard.html

[TeyshaBlue]

This is one of those byzantine constructs that loops around and destroys itself.
There is a kernel of truth behind her observations....there is a culture of underachievement among black students in certain settings...urban being primary. The rule of street is often more important than the rule of school (the Anti-school peer group pressure) and it's a phenomenon that's been heralded and addressed by many in the community.
That she ties this up into some bizarre GOP talking point of welfare dependency is the teaspoon of sewage in the barrel of wine.

[MannyIsGod]

There's no truth in this. Minorities work just as hard as whites in any setting given the circumstances are the same. Whites in poverty do just as badly.

I'd love to see that bitch work some of the fields my family did and then tell me that we're lazy. Fuck that.

[ManuBalboa]

Conditions aren't the same. The truth hurts. There's no secret poor Asians/Indians have a different cultural mentality than other minorities in relation to academia.

[TeyshaBlue]

There's no truth in this. Minorities work just as hard as whites in any setting given the circumstances are the same. Whites in poverty do just as badly.

I'd love to see that bitch work some of the fields my family did and then tell me that we're lazy. Fuck that.

The anti school peer pressure is documented. It's real and it's true.

It's not related to how hard a minority will work. It's directly related cultural and sociological factors.

And no. You are demonstrably wrong in your ascertation that whites in poverty do just as badly. They don't. Neither do Asians.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40095887/ns/us_news-the_new_york_times/

[MannyIsGod]

Thats all fine and good but thats a symptom not a root cause. This lawmaker isn't saying we need to fix poverty so that this goes away, she's saying that it is the fundamental reason that minorities are behind. She also gives no credence to the fact that minorities are targeted much more by laws and their enforcement (whats up crack cocaine legislation). There's no truth in what she's saying at all Teysha. There is complete misrepresentation.

[TeyshaBlue]

Her conclusions are completely invalid.

The observations underneath are valid.

Couched specifically within the context of education, what you label as a symptom, is indeed, the root cause. Poverty is a tangent or maybe even a symbiotic symptom, but not a root cause.

[MannyIsGod]

I couldn't disagree more. Do African american kids that come with families with higher median incomes display those traits in education more than any other ethnic group?

[angrydude]

you can point out reality without saying its caused by race. There's nothing biological about this.

[TeyshaBlue]

I couldn't disagree more. Do African american kids that come with families with higher median incomes display those traits in education more than any other ethnic group?

Don't invert the problem Manny. It's not symmetrical like that. But to answer your question, yes. They do.

[DarrinS]

Terrible thing to say.

[TeyshaBlue]

Don't invert the problem Manny. It's not symmetrical like that. But to answer your question, yes. They do.

This probably sounds counter-intuitive as all hell. It is really. But only if you predicate your position upon poverty being the major driver for minority scholastic underachievement.

[boutons_deux]

A Voyage Into The Racial Code Words Used To Attack Obama’s Americanism

http://www.politicususa.com/en/obama-race-code

==========

birtherism is racism. Blacks aren't Real Americans, so Barry's not (born)American.

[DarrinS]

A Voyage Into The Racial Code Words Used To Attack Obama’s Americanism

http://www.politicususa.com/en/obama-race-code

==========

birtherism is racism. Blacks aren't Real Americans, so Barry's not (born)American.


f3dFh8YYd70


:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao
:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao
:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

[clambake]

ha ha darrin watches msnbc.

[TeyshaBlue]

A Voyage Into The Racial Code Words Used To Attack Obama’s Americanism

http://www.politicususa.com/en/obama-race-code

==========

birtherism is racism. Blacks aren't Real Americans, so Barry's not (born)American.

Thanks for the non sequitur. Again.

[z0sa]

Umbrella statements are never worth jack, but there are, indeed, a couple underlying truths to the education in poverty observation.

It's quite well known blacks and Hispanics do considerably worse than whites and asians on IQ tests. It's not their fault, if we are to believe all people are relatively equal in mental capacity.

Yet solving the problem is impossible if they repeatedly have trouble simply passing secondary school classes and attaining higher education. Until poorer minorities are their white and Asian counterparts' equals in learning, their economic plight will continue. A vicious cycle, I know.

[101A]

Umbrella statements are never worth jack, but there are, indeed, a couple underlying truths to the education in poverty observation.

It's quite well known blacks and Hispanics do considerably worse than whites and asians on IQ tests. It's not their fault, if we are to believe all people are relatively equal in mental capacity.

Yet solving the problem is impossible if they repeatedly have trouble simply passing secondary school classes and attaining higher education. Until poorer minorities are their white and Asian counterparts' equals in learning, their economic plight will continue. A vicious cycle, I know.


OK.

Two assertions have been made in this thread.

1. That the academic performance of poor blacks and poor whites is the same, given like socio-economic conditions (by Manny - and conventional wisdom).

or

2. That poor blacks do worse than their white and Asian counterparts (in the quote above).

Which is correct?

If premise #2 is correct, and Manny's assertion is not, isn't it more of a problem (racist or not), to pretend it's all the same when it isn't? Isn't that ignoring a problem that, ultimately, will prolong that problem, and keep that minority down. That, functionally, is much worse than what the politician said. Shouting this premise down every time it is postulated (however inappropriately it may have been voiced), does nothing to solve the problem, or help the people one is defending.

[z0sa]

wasn't being specific. All assertions I made were considered to obviously be "on average." Sorry if I made it seem sweeping.

I agree economic conditions are the most important factor in education. But I am of the opinion (having lived between divorced parents in lower class incomes through more than first decade of my life) that exerting yourself in your studies and ignoring peer pressure is the key to attaining a better life, NOT blaming the circumstances and continuing the trend.

[MannyIsGod]

AFAIK, there are no biological differences between people of different races that would provide for a substantially diminished mental capacity and ability. If thats not true, then its obviously going to undermine a lot of my positions so I'm going to assume its true until proven otherwise.

With that being said, there are obvious cultural differences between different ethnic groups and Americans and immigrants. The main point I'm making, many of those cultural differences and their negative effects when concerning African Americans are the direct result of our governments policies (discrimination and slavery etc) and its lasting affects. Black people don't inherently work any less than any other minority. If you look at African immigrants they do exceptionally well, even if poor. But for America itself to have created an environment where blacks are poorer, are jailed much more, and have many social problems DIRECTLY as a result of racism and then turn around and try to say that African Americans are responsible for lifting themselves up by their bootstraps is a complete bullshit argument if I've ever heard one.

Yeah, there are social problems but the point remains that those social problems are a DIRECT result of actions undertaken by our own society.

To me thats important as hell, and for me, society has a burden to fix those issues. If I were talking to an individual, I would most certainly tell them that they must work hard and that it is up to them and them alone to make their lives better. As an individual, thats fair. But lawmakers never speak to individuals. Even a singular question in a public forum is more than that and you must always view their words in the context of public statements that reach far more than one person.

Ultimately the point becomes that while there are cultural differences that doesn't mean that culture is to blame.

I can ultimately understand the viewpoint Teysha is expressing considering the perspective of a teacher but I don't give lawmakers that type of leeway and never will.

[TeyshaBlue]

"society has a burden to fix those issues"

Our society is a poor tool to use to administer aid to problems within a particular culture.
Culture is not entirely to blame. It's a factor tho...and one that is as large as the poverty factor....the symbiotic nature of the two is what's so maddening. Neither would exist without the other, but either can potentially harm a student.

[MannyIsGod]

The current culture is a direct result of the poverty and actions of our government Teysha. Thats the point. There's no doubt that the current culture of poor African Americans acts as a tarpit but the fact is that we caused the tarpit to form. THAT is important to acknowledge every time its brought up. When lawmakers do what was done above its so completely different that I'll never give them a grain of credit.

[MannyIsGod]

Do African Americans suffer this way in Europe? If not why?

[MannyIsGod]

Its also one thing to move on from this if its not an ongoing situation but one look at our judicial system and racism within the law making process proves this is obviously not the case. There's also the public perception of African Americans.

In other words I would be more willing to address cultural issues aside from the systematic ones if the systematic ones weren't still so damn rampant. How do you tell African Americans to get their shit together when the system is still fucking them?

[boutons_deux]

When white women get paid 25%+ less that white men for the same job, why should blacks (still) hold any hope for "equal opportunity" for a comfortable, self-respecting life in the wealthiest country in the history of the universe?

[TeyshaBlue]

Do African Americans suffer this way in Europe? If not why?

It's funny, but the UK appears to be miles ahead of us in addressing this. Seems like most of the really revealing research is based in the UK.

[MannyIsGod]

Eh, thats not funny to me or unexpected for that matter. I've come to expect Europe to pretty much beat the US on everything outside of having a huge military.

[DarrinS]

When white women get paid 25%+ less that white men for the same job, why should blacks (still) hold any hope for "equal opportunity" for a comfortable, self-respecting life in the wealthiest country in the history of the universe?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704415104576250672504707048.html

[DarrinS]

In other words I would be more willing to address cultural issues aside from the systematic ones if the systematic ones weren't still so damn rampant. How do you tell African Americans to get their shit together when the system is still fucking them?


Bill Cosby does it all the time. So does Chris Rock.

[DarrinS]

I've come to expect Europe to pretty much beat the US on everything outside of having a huge military.



Well, they are cracking down on racist shit like singing Kung Fu Fighting in front of Chinese people.

[MannyIsGod]

Bill Cosby does it all the time. So does Chris Rock.

Are there any prominent African Americans who do the opposite? Of course there are. Are these 2 elected figures making laws? No.


Well, they are cracking down on racist shit like singing Kung Fu Fighting in front of Chinese people.

I have no idea what you're talking about but I also really don't care.

[fyatuk]

Well, they are cracking down on racist shit like singing Kung Fu Fighting in front of Chinese people.

:lmao :rollin :downspin:

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Self oppression is such a bitch.

[boutons_deux]

"Bill Cosby does it all the time. So does Chris Rock"

both insanely wealthy, now.

As Chris Rock jokes:

"There's not white man alive that would change places with me, AND I'M RICH!"

[Viva Las Espuelas]

How do you tell African Americans to get their shit together when the system is still fucking them?


http://chabukh.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/vallen_pursuit_of_happyness.jpg

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Well, they are cracking down on racist shit like singing Kung Fu Fighting in front of Chinese people.

PC at it's finest :tu

[MannyIsGod]

http://chabukh.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/vallen_pursuit_of_happyness.jpg

:lmao Oh - impeccable logic. No, you're not an idiot.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

:lmao Oh - impeccable logic. No, you're not an idiot.

Ah so you're dismissing where he came from to where he is now? ???

Pssssst: it's about an actual person that's really alive and didnt buy in to self oppression. Didnt think you'd recognize Chris Gardner if I put his pic up.

Don't get mad cuz you didn't want anyone to actually answer your question :lol
Geez you're so full of shit. Self oppress away, Manny. It's what it do :toast

[LnGrrrR]

Do African Americans suffer this way in Europe? If not why?

What's a good equivalent in Europe to the sort of "gangsta" subculture that exists in lower-class US areas? Chavs? Might be interesting to see info on that.

[TeyshaBlue]

What's a good equivalent in Europe to the sort of "gangsta" subculture that exists in lower-class US areas? Chavs? Might be interesting to see info on that.

The educational case studies I've read deal primarily with Black people from the Caribbean. A different subset from the US I would think.

[MannyIsGod]

Ah so you're dismissing where he came from to where he is now? ???

Pssssst: it's about an actual person that's really alive and didnt buy in to self oppression. Didnt think you'd recognize Chris Gardner if I put his pic up.

Don't get mad cuz you didn't want anyone to actually answer your question :lol
Geez you're so full of shit. Self oppress away, Manny. It's what it do :toast

Yeah, crack cocaine laws are textbook self opression. Yeah, theren't aren't huge numbers of African Americans rotting in jails but if there were they would be "self oppressed".

I'm not mad at you anymore than I'd be mad at a chimp for not understanding concepts beyond their mental capabilities.

[MannyIsGod]

What's a good equivalent in Europe to the sort of "gangsta" subculture that exists in lower-class US areas? Chavs? Might be interesting to see info on that.


The educational case studies I've read deal primarily with Black people from the Caribbean. A different subset from the US I would think.

Man I just realized I put African Americans when talking about black people in Europe. Genius.

To address your point though, I don't know, LnG. I would pretty much look at minority communities in general though and see if they have the same type of educational problems and/or crime problems. However, seeing as the crime problems here are in huge part due to our stupid legislation I am 99% sure the UK's black population isn't overly jailed due to crack cocaine.

[vy65]

What's a good equivalent in Europe to the sort of "gangsta" subculture that exists in lower-class US areas? Chavs? Might be interesting to see info on that.

Muslims in France tbh.

They're way more progressive than the U.S., what with their veiling laws and whatnot.

[vy65]

Algerians/North Africans tbh...

[vy65]

Also Turks in Germany. Germans love them some Turks.

[Thompson]

Do African Americans suffer this way in Europe? If not why?

No they do not, because they wouldn't be African Americans in Europe.

[MannyIsGod]

The argument isn't about new immigrants and xenophobia. African Americans didn't arrive yesterday.

[MannyIsGod]

No they do not, because they wouldn't be African Americans in Europe.

I already made fun of myself about this above. You're late to the party.

[TeyshaBlue]

Man I just realized I put African Americans when talking about black people in Europe. Genius.

:lol I read it...and passed.

[vy65]

If you're point is that Europe is way more tolerant of racial minorities, then new immigrants and xenophobia is highly relevant. If it's specific to black people, then you're right - but who cares? Europeans are just as fucked up as Americans - they just oppress different people.

[LnGrrrR]

Man I just realized I put African Americans when talking about black people in Europe. Genius.

To address your point though, I don't know, LnG. I would pretty much look at minority communities in general though and see if they have the same type of educational problems and/or crime problems. However, seeing as the crime problems here are in huge part due to our stupid legislation I am 99% sure the UK's black population isn't overly jailed due to crack cocaine.

Well, I was thinking of the "chav" population since it seems to share some of the same cultural values that some urban poor reflect (ie. buying flashy clothes/jewelry for social positioning rather than long-term assets). I could be way off; I'm no professional.

[MannyIsGod]

If you're point is that Europe is way more tolerant of racial minorities, then new immigrants and xenophobia is highly relevant. If it's specific to black people, then you're right - but who cares? Europeans are just as fucked up as Americans - they just oppress different people.

Its a different subject. Americans are just as xenophobic, but xenophobia and racism on a minority group that aren't immigrants are two different subjects. You could argue that they are related and thats fine, but trying to point to European xenophobia to counteract the argument that they are more progressive when it comes to minorities in general is especially funny considering American attitudes to immigrants. Its not like our president just had to release his birth certificate or anything.

Europeans aren't perfect as you pointed out with the veil laws etc - but they're definitely more progressive than the US.

[vy65]

From what I've heard and personally have experienced, I'd take issue with American's being just as xenophobic. I'd say Europe is way more hostile in that arena. But I don't know how you quantify one over the other: do you add up racial policies and see who has the most marks - the US or Europe?

I'm inclined to agree with you on the difference - but again - what's the point? Europe is every bit as fucked up when it comes to minorities (religious or of a different national origin as opposed to straight-up racial).

[DarrinS]

I really hate the whole <insert your ethnic identity here>-American labels.

[Wild Cobra]

Who the fuck elected WC?
Their is some truth to the statements. Sorry you are a denier.

[Wild Cobra]

Minorities work just as hard as whites in any setting given the circumstances are the same. Whites in poverty do just as badly.

You're right, and if you recall, I usually elaborate that it's a thing of culture. Not color. However, people of color vastly outnumber whites in these underclass cultures. Now when it is viewed as an issue of color, the OP is correct as a generalization. However, facts make statistics and statistics don't make facts.

[101A]

Do African Americans suffer this way in Europe? If not why?

A trick question.

We've gotten so used to the term "African American" because anything else is racist - that we use it when it is nonsensical.

[Nbadan]

...excellent point....I don't think that there is anything wrong with describing someone as 'black', just as I would not think there is anything wrong with describing someone as caucasion.....

[diego]

During a debate over affirmative action, Oklahoma state Rep. Sally Kern (R) said that minorities earn less than white people because they "didn't want to work hard in school," according to KOCO-TV.

Said Kern: "We have a high percentage of blacks in prison, and that's tragic, but are they in prison just because they are black or because they don't want to study as hard in school? I've taught school, and I saw a lot of people of color who didn't study hard because they said the government would take care of them."

Kern added that women earn less than men because "they tend to spend more time at home with their families." She later apologized for her remarks.

Some of the responses make me think that people havent read the actual statements.

Is it a crime to not study hard in school?
does studying hard preclude you from going to jail/committing a crime?
do people who study hard earn more than those who dont?
Are poor students really thinking ahead that welfare will save them?
Do women without children still earn less than men?
If you think answer any of these questions with a straight yes/no, you are a dumb ass.

I went to mostly middle-upper class schools on 3 continents- almost all diplomat and corporate families. There were a lot of people who didnt study hard. None of them were thinking about welfare (sex, alcohol, drugs, clubs, and videogames usually topped the lists of what they were thinking about, though it is possible some were thinking of their family money- does that count as welfare?). None that I know of have gone to jail. Probably less than 15% of the women have children (early 30's) and about 30% married, yet they still on average make less than men (even though the "hard study" group was dominated by women). I've been to school, and this is what I saw. Why are my generalizations less valid than hers? Oh thats right, because one person's observations have marginal bearing over a large, complex problem, especially when that person hasn't even framed that problem logically. welfare leading to not studying hard leading to prison is as retarded a premise as I've ever seen; trying to tie a premise as retarded as that to an ethnic group, biologically or culturally, is straight bull shit.

[CharlieMac]

There's no truth in this. Minorities work just as hard as whites in any setting given the circumstances are the same. Whites in poverty do just as badly.

I'd love to see that bitch work some of the fields my family did and then tell me that we're lazy. Fuck that.

That was a completely different mentality when it came to that type of work ethic. My family did the same both in South Texas and Ohio. There was a need for MOST minorities then. We don't do it now for obvious reasons.

Plus there is a ton of research and articles in the counseling field that discuss this mentality in some hispanic and african-american communities. Its why there are classes like Counseling in a Multi-cultural Community for all counselors. Its actually an odd mindset that some younger students have now.

The comment on women was fucking stupid though. Something like 95 percent of all principals in one district here is female.

[Wild Cobra]

Diego, I agree with your point about family wealth. When you consider middle class and below however, "making the grade" matters more.