Five Step Rebuilding Plan

[timvp]

Obviously, this is really, really, really early and I have kept myself from thinking about it until now ... but here is my five step rebuilding plan to turn this squad into a legit contender. Please post yours.

1. Start Tiago Splitter next to Tim Duncan and bring DeJuan Blair off the bench as the first big. Splitter needs to play big minutes in an attempt to revitalize the defense. Blair's explosiveness and energy will be great if he buys into the bench role. And his size won't be too much of an issue if he's playing mostly next to Splitter or Duncan.

2. Send Manu Ginobili and Richard Jefferson to the bench. Ginobili needs to conserve his body in the regular season. And I think he can be just as productive to the success of the team by giving the Spurs the best bench punch in the league. As for RJ, you'd obviously try to trade him but that won't happen. Playing him off the bench at least makes it so that anything he gives you is a bonus. He can't be relied upon, as was reinforced in this series.

3. Let George Hill, Gary Neal, James Anderson, Danny Green and Da'Sean Butler fight for starting spots. Bring in other young wings who are hungry to join the fight. To get back to a true championship level, the Spurs will need a couple swingmen to emerge.

4. Don't rely as much on three-pointers. I'll take 50 playoff-style wins over 60 fun-and-gun wins if it means the team is built for postseason success.

5. Don't panic too much. It's not time to start over. The Big 3 needs to be remained intact at all costs. Find a group of role players willing to compete. Revert to a playoff style strategy. Try again.


What would you do?

Thanks.

[NASpurs]

Getting bounced out in the first round and then having a late first round pick kind of sucks. Maybe a backup point in the draft?

[MannyIsGod]

Sorry man, but the Spurs simply don't have a franchise player anymore. They will probablly not start to rebuild until Tim and Manu's contracts are done but that doens't mean they shouldn't.

It was so brutal at times this series when it was obvious the Spurs didn't have a go to guy. They're not winning a ring in this NBA with Kobe, Durant, Rose, Lebron, etc without a similar player. Just the facts.

[MannyIsGod]

Zebo was a franchise player this series. Thats what the Spurs are missing.

[Mugen]

this team is a perimeter defender away from being a legit contender. Who knows what JA/Green/Butler can bring next year...but that's a good crop of young talent who can defend.

If you're RC, you're calling Kahn in Minnesota every day til training camp and try and convince him that RJ still has shit left in the tank. He's dumb enough to believe him.

This team is absolutely done for 8-10 years when Timmy hangs them up. I'm not sure why so many people are anxious to see him retire now and trade TP so that number can be reduced to 7-9 years.

Til the wheels fall off. The Big 3 aren't going to quit. So don't fucking quit on them.

[Spurs Brazil]

1- Agree 100%. I think Pop will start Tiago but Bonner will be the 1st big off the bench.

2- Agree about Manu. Spurs must trade Jefferson

3 - Start Neal at SG. Find a reliable backup PG. We'll need Hill to make a RJ trade. Hope Anderson or Butler can be a rotation player

4 - Agree, bring back the old Spurs defense first and find guys who want to play D

5 - I'd also give the big 3 one more run.

I hope they try to trade Jefferson on draft day, after it, with the new CBA will be almost impossible

[Homeland Security]

"Till the Wheels Fall Off"

They did.

The Turks just blew up the Theodosian Wall. The Genoese aren't coming.

Half the city lies in ruins already and the doors fell off Hagia Sophia decades ago.

The Empire, at long last, is finally lost.

[DesignatedT]

1. Trade RJ for a decent big
2. Trade RJ for a bag of chips
3. Get bigger inside. No more Blair, Bonner or Mcdyess. Use the MLE here.
4. Need some perimeter defenders.


Tim, Tony, Manu, Neal, Hill, Tiago, Anderson only guys that should for sure stay IMO.

[mexicanjunior]

1.) Fire Pop...bring in Mike Brown, he at least understands what Spurs winning basketball used to be...

2.) Buyout Jefferson, Bonner and Mcdyess...I know the Spurs are too cheap to do this but, in a perfect world, they would be gone. Bonner and Jefferson because of their performance, Mcdyess because of his age.

3.) Start Duncan, Splitter, Anderson, Hill and Parker...bring Manu, Blair, Green (or Butler) and Neal off the bench. Sign or draft a defensive minded backup big and true backup PG.

4.) If the Spurs get off to a bad start and it is clear they are not going to compete for at least a division title...trade TP while he still has value and encourage Duncan/Manu to retire as Spurs or trade them to a contender for a chance to win 1 more ring.

[Brutalis]

Trade RJ as DT said.

Make Pop revert back to defense first strategy or tell him to GTFO and go coach the Warriors.

Blair is good enough now to be used for trade bait to get RJ the fuck out of SA.

Get TD to retire, open up the cap room, go after D12.

[Obstructed_View]

Either find a new head coach, or purge the coaching staff and bring in assistants that aren't afraid to do anything other than tow the company line.
Splitter/Duncan/smallforwardtobenamedlater/Manu/Parker starting lineup
If Ryan Richards comes over, let him play
Defense over shooting
Get Antonio McDyess a gold watch before his body stops aching.
Find a long three, whatever it takes.
Find an actual backup point guard, whatever it takes
Hill, Bonner, Blair and RJ become expendable.
If you keep Blair and/or Bonner, they need to get minutes at small forward.

[ElNono]

I mostly agree with 1), but you need a 4th tall, physical big. Tim will only be effective closer to 25 mpg soon, Bonner needs to be shipped (might cost us Hill, Neal or Anderson), Dice is gone. I'm also dubious Dejuan can get good minutes if you want to have a team with good D, unless he gets a lot of help.

I also agree with 2), but also think RJ needs to be shipped, and again you're going to have to sweeten the deal with somebody else. We haven't had a good wing for a long time, and it's obvious RJ is not that guy, so there's no point to keep trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Anderson might be that guy, if so, he needs to get burn and we need to find out soon, or go out there looking for trades.

We need a backup PG. We've been needing one for a few seasons now. Hill is a SG, and he can't run a team. Manu is getting older and so is Tony. It has to be a true PG.

I'd like Pop to make the biggest adjustment, and turn back the clock to the days were he was a freaking asshole when somebody fucked up on defense. Sit them out, rip them a new asshole, etc etc etc... If the coach doesn't hold people accountable, we're just not going to change.

Prioritize trying to keep Danny Green and Neal... Danny showed he can play D, Neal has balls...

[Spurs Brazil]

And one more thing. The best thing that can happen is a lockout and another 50 games season.
Manu and Tim are old and playing only 50 games will help a lot in the playoffs

[crc21209]

Keep the Big 3, obviously. We have 1-2 more runs left in these guys. Keep Neal, Hill, and start Splitter next to TD. Find 1 or 2 more shooters, and get 1 or 2 perimeter defenders. I'd keep Dice over Bonner, but what are the chances of that happening? You can try and trade RJ, but it aint gonna happen folks. Bring him and Manu off the bench....

[TacoCabanaFajitas]

I know you live the Big 3 TimVP but there's just no way this team can contend for a title. I leave it up to Tim and Manu what they want to do. If they want to ride it out and keep trying with this organization let them do it, if they want to contend somewhere let em go. Had Splitter gotten PT all year I would have believed in a title, but since halfway through the season when it was evident this team was not built around the defense anymore (same story the last 3 years) I gave up hope for a title.

Look at it this way, even if we had 2 more athletic wings to throw at Memphis in this series these games still would have been insanely close and MAYBE the Spurs would have won. We had to fight hard for every basket this series it seemed, while Memphis was able to end droughts by throwing it down low and getting the easy bucket. The Spurs don't have that guy anymore, that can take a game or a series over

[Marcus Bryant]

Splitter and Anderson will be additions to the rotation next season. This team isn't that far off where it needs to be. Defense needs to make a comeback though. Too early to blow things up.

[DirkDoesWork]

Richard Jefferson doesn't need to be sent to the bench. He needs to be sent out on the first train available.

I'm not sure the Spurs can go after D12. I don't think he'd be interested living in San Antonio. He wants to be an "entertainer and an icon," as Cam Newton so famously said. I would be surprised if he doesn't land in L.A. or New York either via free agency or trade.

[crc21209]

And one more thing. The best thing that can happen is a lockout and another 50 games season.
Manu and Tim are old and playing only 50 games will help a lot in the playoffs

Agreed. And then the Spurs would win it all, and Laker fans would put another asterisk on it...:lol

[Chomag]

2 of the big 3 are at the stage in their years where they need to compliment a yonger player not the other way around.

I don't think staying pat with the same team again will get it done. It might keep you in the playoffs but it wont make them a contender. Spurs are going to need an younger immediate impact player.

Spurs to somehow need to add another game changer, roll players built around the big 3 just can't get it doen anymore.

[scottspurs]

1. Keep the big 3.

2. Keep developing Hill, Splitter, Neal and Anderson.

3. Find a perimeter Defender. Chris Singleton from Florida State would be awesome I'm a huge fan.

4. Package bad contract Richard Jefferson with great contract Dejuan Blair for a low post scorer or shot blocker. Only way to possibly get rid of Jefferson's contract and Blair is too short anyway.

5. Like timvp said ditch offensive style for defensive philosophy even if it results in less wins and lower seed.

6. Bonner has to go. If he is on the spurs Coach Pop will give him minutes and we all know how that will turn out come playoff time. He works hard. I have nothing against the guy, but he just is not a championship caliber team roll player.

7. Some luck and Health. Sucks, but it's clearly a factor.

Basically Spurs need a low post scorer and a wing defender. Probably two of the toughest players to find.

[crc21209]

Splitter and Anderson will be additions to the rotation next season. This team isn't that far off where it needs to be. Defense needs to make a comeback though. Too early to blow things up.

+1. I think that's exactly what the Pistons did, blew things up too early, and look what happened to them....

[spursbird]

Well I think it's not a rebuilding mode. Trading for picks and building around them is a better idea imo.

[mattyc]

1. Trade RJ.

Go from there.

[DPG21920]

1. Trade RJ for a decent big
2. Trade RJ for a bag of chips
3. Get bigger inside. No more Blair, Bonner or Mcdyess. Use the MLE here.
4. Need some perimeter defenders.


Tim, Tony, Manu, Neal, Hill, Tiago, Anderson only guys that should for sure stay IMO.

:wow What a 180 we have here

[lcroock]

The Spurs need length, athleticism, toughness, and shot blocking at the 3 and 4 spots. We need guys that can contribute on both ends of the court, something RJ, Blair, Bonner were not able to do. Splitter showed signs during the year but may not be the answer either.

Ideas:
Trade Blair for Casspi and sign Kenyon Martin (as much as I hate K-Mart).
Trade Splitter for Casspi and Blair for Birdman.

[DesignatedT]

:wow What a 180 we have here

He got his 2nd chance and still didn't deliver.

[angelbelow]

Obviously, this is really, really, really early and I have kept myself from thinking about it until now ... but here is my five step rebuilding plan to turn this squad into a legit contender. Please post yours.

1. Start Tiago Splitter next to Tim Duncan and bring DeJuan Blair off the bench as the first big. Splitter needs to play big minutes in an attempt to revitalize the defense. Blair's explosiveness and energy will be great if he buys into the bench role. And his size won't be too much of an issue if he's playing mostly next to Splitter or Duncan.

2. Send Manu Ginobili and Richard Jefferson to the bench. Ginobili needs to conserve his body in the regular season. And I think he can be just as productive to the success of the team by giving the Spurs the best bench punch in the league. As for RJ, you'd obviously try to trade him but that won't happen. Playing him off the bench at least makes it so that anything he gives you is a bonus. He can't be relied upon, as was reinforced in this series.

3. Let George Hill, Gary Neal, James Anderson, Danny Green and Da'Sean Butler fight for starting spots. Bring in other young wings who are hungry to join the fight. To get back to a true championship level, the Spurs will need a couple swingmen to emerge.

4. Don't rely as much on three-pointers. I'll take 50 playoff-style wins over 60 fun-and-gun wins if it means the team is built for postseason success.

5. Don't panic too much. It's not time to start over. The Big 3 needs to be remained intact at all costs. Find a group of role players willing to compete. Revert to a playoff style strategy. Try again.


What would you do?

Thanks.

Not much to add here. I don't think we can trade RJ either.. so bringing him off the bench makes sense here. I would keep Manu as a starter.

At this point I don't think any significant changes to our roster is realistic. No one is gonna take RJ or Bonner and we probably won't spend the MLE (Although I hope we do if the right piece comes along.)

[celldweller]

1. Keep the big 3.

2. Keep developing Hill, Splitter, Neal and Anderson.

3. Find a perimeter Defender. Chris Singleton from Florida State would be awesome I'm a huge fan.

4. Package bad contract Richard Jefferson with great contract Dejuan Blair for a low post scorer or shot blocker. Only way to possibly get rid of Jefferson's contract and Blair is too short anyway.

5. Like timvp said ditch offensive style for defensive philosophy even if it results in less wins and lower seed.

6. Bonner has to go. If he is on the spurs Coach Pop will give him minutes and we all know how that will turn out come playoff time. He works hard. I have nothing against the guy, but he just is not a championship caliber team roll player.

7. Some luck and Health. Sucks, but it's clearly a factor.

Basically Spurs need a low post scorer and a wing defender. Probably two of the toughest players to find.

Totally Agree.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

At this point, fucked if I know. Seems to me that aging players without any athleticism are being left behind in the modern NBA, so it might just be time to blow it all up (except Tim - he gets to do whatever he chooses - he has earned that right). Then again, what could we get for Manu and Tony? Depends on the offers. I'm going to have to think things over before I decide anything.

One thing is for certain though - as I said before this season even started, the RJ contract is a fucking albatross and was a nightmare decision. Imagine if, as I suggested, we'd just let him play out this year for 15mil (or whatever it was)... we'd now be able to jettison his useless arse. Instead, he will hamstring our rebuilding for at least 2 more years. Fuck.

[Obstructed_View]

Duncan might not be mobile, but he is, at absolute worst, a top five defender in the league. It's not a coincidence that the one time in the last five years that the Spurs bothered to have someone beside him who was remotely capable of playing passable NBA defense, they won a title. He was clearly fresh during the playoffs, so removing him as the offensive focal point was a step in the right direction.

BTW, it might take Neal to get someone to take RJ. Would you do it?

[Stringer_Bell]

I suppose I shouldn't have been so shocked that our offensive arsenal was totally absent this series, but the fact is we need to play smarter than just great regular season offense. That means...

1) Renewed emphasis on post-game and shooting late into the shot clock. Limiting the possessions of the other team and putting ourselves in a position to grab as many boards as possible off missed shots. That means...
1a. Get rid of Bonner.
1b. Start Splitter no matter how clumsy he looks at some points in the game.
2) Preserve Manu. That means...
1a. Like Timvp said, bring him off the bench with RJ for the bench punch from Hell.
3) Stop living and dying by the 3. That means...
1a. Be content with Neal/Anderson being our designated 3-pt shooters in the starting line-up (with TP/Manu/Splitter putting up points in the paint).
2a. Be content with Manu/RJ/Hill as our designated 3-pt shooters off the bench that can also get into the paint while Blair/Dice/Young Defensive Big to be determined focus on rebounds and tip-ins.

I dunno if all that is asking too much, maybe we really are done and I don't want to give up the ghost. But there was a total shift in tone that makes me feel like this team was sabatoged after Pop started fucking with the line-up and kept playing Bonner after the injury. Ughhhhhhhhh. :(

[baseline bum]

I really really don't want to see Tim ever in another jersey, but I also don't want to see 2-3 years of being a 7-9 seed and drafting at 16-18 every year either, and then 3-5 years of total suckage. I really hate either option. :depressed

[200 miles]

1. Fire Pop

2. Hire Mike Brown

3. Sign Ryan Richards

4. Waive Bonner

5. Waive Bonner

[DesignatedT]

BTW, it might take Neal to get someone to take RJ. Would you do it?

Depends what we will end up getting in return. Blair could be a piece to throw in as well.

[Borosai]

I think a Reloading Plan is more accurate. And we're talking about competing for a championship right?

1) Move Duncan to center where he will split minutes with Splitter. We clearly saw in this series that the Spurs simply don't have a go-to post player. Duncan has his moments, but it's not enough. And Splitter doesn't appear to have the offensive polish to score consistently down there, especially one-on-one.

2) Get a PF that can become that post presence the Spurs need. This is the most difficult part, and possibly impossible, but if the Spurs want a championship, they must be able to hold their own offensively in the paint. Duncan and Splitter would be a great defensive duo at the 5, but the points have to come from somewhere. Blair would be great as the backup PF, and should do really well if he doesn't go into Pout Mode. I like Bonner, and I always root for him, but if the Spurs can trade his contract for a more complete player, they'd have to do it. I want to see the Spurs dominate the paint again, and they'll need to get the right players to do it. Stretch 4s aren't it. Sadly, Dice should retire at this point.

3) Bench Jefferson. He is so invisible out there, but perhaps he'll find his nuts against 2nd stringers. His contract will be impossible to move, so make the best of it and trade his expiring contract when the time comes.

4) Find a starting SF. Maybe Butler will turn into a steal. But whomever they find, please let him be tall. Enough with this small ball crap. Neal and Ginobili shouldn't be defending small forwards. Hell, find a one-dimensional, defensive specialist with the ability to defend 1-4. The Spurs need a shutdown defender on the perimeter. They can score in other ways.

5) I agree about sending Manu to the bench once again. We all know the pros by now.

6) I would love to see Anderson take over the starting job at SG. He has great size and talent. If he stays healthy and fit, he should be able to hold his own. Every time I see him out there, I notice how long he looks. That is never a bad thing in the game of basketball. Gary Neal should be the designated shooter: come in, shoot.

7) Trade Hill if possible. Yeah, I like him too, but he's way too inconsistent. He plays so soft and passive at times it's not easy to take. He has good value at the moment, and wouldn't be difficult to move. Anderson, Ginobili and Neal can easily handle SG duties.

8) Parker is fine. He struggled recently, but he's still the Spurs' most consistent scorer. He'll be fine.

9) Backup PG. They don't have one. Instead they have 2s handling the ball, and that sucks. Get a PG --any PG-- with a decent game. This may not be as important as other things, but it would help the team's flow a lot. Quinn could be the 3rd PG if necessary.

10) Pop needs to get his shit together and revert back to the system that those championship teams were built upon. Don't have the players? Get them. Can't get them? Well, fuck it then. We'll have to wait to rebuild after a few more years.

IMHO.

[stealthjbravo]

Acquire Lucas Nogueira and build this team around him and Tiago Splitter. Thats our twin towers for the next 10 years. Keep Tim around to teach and develop those two.

[HarlemHeat37]

The problem is that some of these "plans" for "ideal" players are ignoring a crucial part of the team: the coach..Pop has not given any indication that he is in favor of bringing in some of these players that play the "ideal" style of play(in the opinion of the fanbase)..

[GrandeDavid]

Good plan, TimVP, and the most realistic.

[Obstructed_View]

I don't understand the impulse to put Manu back on the bench. Up until Pop decided to play him in an utterly meaningless game, where he suffered a freak injury, he was perfectly healthy and perfectly fresh for the postseason. The only way this makes any sense is if you decide that Parker/Anderson is a better starting lineup, and you only know that after you let them play together for a while.

Duncan and Splitter do not play the same position. The absolute biggest mistake of this season was thinking that's the case. Duncan can play 12-15 feet from the basket and still be able to defend. He needs someone with length beside him.

[TDMVPDPOY]

hill + rj + bonner for granger + fillers...do it

[Mugen]

BTW, it might take Neal to get someone to take RJ. Would you do it?

If all it takes is gary neal to move RJ then you jump for fucking joy.

I love Gary and he showed some balls in this series but RJ was so absolutely worthless in this series that i would send anybody outside of the big 3 to get rid of him.

It was fucking disgusting to watch him play out there.

They need to take the 2002 and 2003 MVPs from Timmy and give it to Jason Kidd for making RJ appear like a decent player in NJ and not the POS vagina that he's turned into now.

O pts
1 Reb
0 asts

In a game to save your fucking season. Absolute disgrace to that jersey he is wearing.

[Obstructed_View]

BTW, fuck Mike Brown. The last thing the Spurs need is a Pop disciple. They need a young coach that focuses on defense and has ties to the team.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_f4Fo_GlfJs8/SUa1eLXI0GI/AAAAAAAABns/HyawQKC8O1U/s400/chuck+person.jpg

[SpurOutofTownFan]

I agree with many here but most importantly if the Spurs want to compete in the West they need to get bigger at all costs and I mean just with Splitter and Duncan it can't be done. The Spurs need 1 or 2 more real bigs - over 6'10 and good weight - in order to get out of the west.

I think the backup PG and big wing is secondary to getting big in 4 and 5 position.

This point guys has been the demise of the Spurs since 2007.

[Chomag]

Duncan might not be mobile, but he is, at absolute worst, a top five defender in the league. It's not a coincidence that the one time in the last five years that the Spurs bothered to have someone beside him who was remotely capable of playing passable NBA defense, they won a title. He was clearly fresh during the playoffs, so removing him as the offensive focal point was a step in the right direction.

BTW, it might take Neal to get someone to take RJ. Would you do it?

Yep, the reason why Timmy's defence has not dropped off becuase he plays defence with his brain and not his body. He blocks so many shots yet his feet hardly get off the floor. He should go down in NBA history as one of the most smart Basketball players of all time.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Bonner can't be on the roster when next season starts. Pop will go back to that scrub ass who has no business being in our rotation, let alone the first big off the bench. It's the Finley principle - as long as he's around, Pop will trot him out there to get abused.

[outmap]

1. http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=3kxskq9 THIS! Add the Spurs first round pick if necessary.

2. Sign a big and a long-3 for the MLE and LLE.
- Options for MLE Big: Greg Oden, Jonas Jerebko and Samuel Dalembert.
- Options for MLE 3: Wilson Chandler and Thaddeus Young.
- Options for LLE Big: Aaron Gray, Ryan Hollins and Jason Smith.
- Options for LLE 3: Al Thornton, Luc Mbah a Moute and Julian Wright.

3. Ask Duncan for an ETO and re-sign for less.

4. Draft and stash the 2nd round pick. Sign Richards and re-sign Green. Reserve the last slot for the mandatory veteran min signing or D-league developmental signing sometime in the mid-season.

5. Start TD, Splitter, Jack, Manu and TP.
Rotation:
- C Duncan, (MLE/LLE Big), , Splitter, Richards
- PF Splitter, Tyrus, Bonner
- SF SJax, (MLE/LLE 3), Butler
- SG Manu, Green, Neal (midseason vet/d-league signing)
- PG TP, Hill, Neal (midseason vet/d-league signing)

[outmap]

1. http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=3kxskq9 THIS! Add the Spurs first round pick if necessary.

2. Sign a big and a long-3 for the MLE and LLE.
- Options for MLE Big: Greg Oden, Jonas Jerebko and Samuel Dalembert.
- Options for MLE 3: Wilson Chandler and Thaddeus Young.
- Options for LLE Big: Aaron Gray, Ryan Hollins and Jason Smith.
- Options for LLE 3: Al Thornton, Luc Mbah a Moute and Julian Wright.

3. Ask Duncan for an ETO and re-sign for less.

4. Draft and stash the 2nd round pick. Sign Richards and re-sign Green. Reserve the last slot for the mandatory veteran min signing or D-league developmental signing sometime in the mid-season.

5. Start TD, Splitter, Jack, Manu and TP.
Rotation:
- C Duncan, (MLE/LLE Big), , Splitter, Richards
- PF Splitter, Tyrus, Bonner
- SF SJax, (MLE/LLE 3), Butler
- SG Manu, Green, Neal (midseason vet/d-league signing)
- PG TP, Hill, Neal (midseason vet/d-league signing)

[elbamba]

1. Trade Hill because we will probably have to overpay him if he stays. See if you can trade RJ. The Spurs unloaded Rasho and Rose, where there is a will, there is a way.

2. Consider trading TP if the right amount of picks come into play.

3. Move Manu to the bench and start Splitter next to TP.

4. Hire a personal trainer for Anderson so he is in shape coming into the next season.

5. Try to draft a 6' 7'' or 8'' wing that can play defense.

*Hope that Dice hangs in up so we can sign another big man.

[Crazymaddopeyo]

Do you think RJ would trade for a pure defensive guy?

[all_heart]

1. Get bigger and more athletic. Even if it means trading a combination of Hill, Blair and 1 or two other bench players.
2. Dump Bonner.. see above.
3. Dump RJ if possible, dude is too flaky for our style of play.

[mingus]

first step to rebuilding is to lower your expectations for this team. the Spurs can try all they want to re-structure the team but they still will not have a go-to post-player next year. i can't remember a team other than the Chicago Bulls that didn't have a low post player they could throw the ball to consistently for high % buckets. it's a hard reality to accept, but it's one you have to accept. no amount of re-structuring will fill that fatal hole. that's what it comes down to for me.

Spurs need to just break the Big 3 up. and hate to say it, but they're pretty much a big 2 now anyways with Duncan being where he is. flush this team down the toilet, and get to the complete suckage phase of re-building as fast as you can. trade Parker, or trade Ginobili. or both. i really, really, hate the prospect of giving any one of those guys up, esp. both, BUT THEY CAN CRY THEMSELVES ALL THE WAY TO THE BANK. i respect them both for all that they've done, but keeping them here will only prolong mediocrity, the standary of which is not being able to get past the first round.

obivously, i want RJ gone, but it's not happening. his contract is f'n ridiculous. Duncan isn't going to turn down 20 million, and i don't blame him one bit.

i'm hoping that next year we go into training camp with RJ & Tim as the only guys out of the starting five left. we'll be really shit then, and probably only win 30 games, and in the West not even make the playoffs. hell, sit Duncan for back-to-backs and maybe the team wins 25. hard pill to swallow, but we'd get a lotto pick. the following year, Duncan retires. so we only got RJ & Bonner in the books. the team would suck so bad that year (it'd be the 2012-13 season), we'd have to get a high pick for sure. 2013-14 we'd suck again, but we'd have another high draft pick. and guess who will be a FA in summer of 2014? Blake Griffin. maybe by that time we have enough in young talent to lure him.

best case scenario is we give ourselves a chance to be really good again by 2014-2015 season.

[Obstructed_View]

Well, I'm smarter than Pop. Again. The Spurs waste another year of Duncan's career. Again. I don't feel any better, but talking about how they're going to re-tool for next year has been cathartic. Have a good night guys. I wish I could say it was a fun season.

[SenorSpur]

Obviously, this is really, really, really early and I have kept myself from thinking about it until now ... but here is my five step rebuilding plan to turn this squad into a legit contender. Please post yours.

1. Start Tiago Splitter next to Tim Duncan and bring DeJuan Blair off the bench as the first big. Splitter needs to play big minutes in an attempt to revitalize the defense. Blair's explosiveness and energy will be great if he buys into the bench role. And his size won't be too much of an issue if he's playing mostly next to Splitter or Duncan.

2. Send Manu Ginobili and Richard Jefferson to the bench. Ginobili needs to conserve his body in the regular season. And I think he can be just as productive to the success of the team by giving the Spurs the best bench punch in the league. As for RJ, you'd obviously try to trade him but that won't happen. Playing him off the bench at least makes it so that anything he gives you is a bonus. He can't be relied upon, as was reinforced in this series.

3. Let George Hill, Gary Neal, James Anderson, Danny Green and Da'Sean Butler fight for starting spots. Bring in other young wings who are hungry to join the fight. To get back to a true championship level, the Spurs will need a couple swingmen to emerge.

4. Don't rely as much on three-pointers. I'll take 50 playoff-style wins over 60 fun-and-gun wins if it means the team is built for postseason success.

5. Don't panic too much. It's not time to start over. The Big 3 needs to be remained intact at all costs. Find a group of role players willing to compete. Revert to a playoff style strategy. Try again.


What would you do?

Thanks.

Great plan. I agree for the most part. However, this team, as currently constructed, will likely not challenge for conference supremacy any time soon. And while a wholesale rebuild can't possibly start until Duncan retires, some hard decisions can be made now.

That said, it turns my stomach to see this team continue to invest dollars and court time into weak-minded, rotation players, who are either one-dimensional or poor defenders or both. Because the Spurs desparately need an injection of more size, skill and athleticism into this rotation, they can no longer afford to allow players to simply take up space on the court and in the rotation. That much is painfully obvious. If you'll indulge me, I want to go a bit more drastic.

1. The first way this team is going to get better is by shipping out the dead weight. Bonner and RJ CANNOT be on this roster next year. By whatever means necessary, these two players, along with their contracts, need to be shippied out. Even if it takes throwing in either Hill, Blair and McDyess' partially guaranteed contract, as an asset, to make it happen. Besides, getting rid of Bonner and RJ would help evolve away from the perimeter-oriented, outside-in, style that Pop has been foolish enough to adopt.

2. Incorporate Tiago Splitter into the starting lineup.

3. Draft either a lockdown, defensive-minded SF (Chris Singleton or Tyler Honeycutt) or a long PF/C (JaJuan Johnson, Jordan Williams or Lucas Nougiera). If somehow they could come out of the June draft with players that fit both positions, that would be a huge win.

4. Prep Ryan Richards for a contributing role off the bench. His development should be accelerated, as his skills could come in handy in support of an aging Duncan.

5. Have an open competition for all positions. Allow James Anderson, DeSean Butler and Danny Green each the opportunity to compete and win the starting SF job. Unless of course, somehow the Spurs are fortunate enough to draft a SF like Honeycutt or Singleton.

6. Get better defensively by incorporating better defenders onto the roster and into the rotation. That's why having Splitter, a new defensive-minded SF or PF, and another backup rim-protecting big, would work wonders. Gone are the days where Duncan should be the longest, tallest and best defender on the roster.

7. Consider moving Tony Parker. While I don't advocate this whole-heartedly, I would listen to offers for Parker. It's not that I want him gone, but if some team knocks the Spurs socks off with an offer, I would consider it. However if said offer should include a nice, young player and a high draft pick, the Spurs would be foolish not to listen. It would be a nice way to start stockpiling some assets.

8. No more players as old or older than Duncan. It's long over due, but the time has come to put even more youth and skill around Manu and Duncan. Those two should be the oldest players on the roster.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Duncan might not be mobile, but he is, at absolute worst, a top five defender in the league. It's not a coincidence that the one time in the last five years that the Spurs bothered to have someone beside him who was remotely capable of playing passable NBA defense, they won a title. He was clearly fresh during the playoffs, so removing him as the offensive focal point was a step in the right direction.

BTW, it might take Neal to get someone to take RJ. Would you do it?

1. Agreed on Duncan. He and Splitter need to be starting together next year.

2. Get rid of Jefferson. Dude is worthless. Find some sucker to take him + whichever of Neal, Blair, Anderson it takes to get him off the team.

3. Get rid of Matt Bonner. Dude sucks. Memphis spent the last two minutes of the 3rd and first four of the 4th scoring on him or drawing a foul on him every single play. It was a joke. It was the 'Sheed principle all over again. And it's the Finley principle. As long as his scrub ass is on our roster, Pop will squint, see a white Robert Horry, and trot him out there to get abused.

4. Embrace athleticism on the wing. Ryan Richards, James Anderson, Dasean Butler, come on down.

5. We need fresh ideas on the bench. Whether it's some new assistants that have the balls to stand up to Pop, or Pop himself goes, I don't care. But Pop has gone to this jacked up mix of Nellie's mad lineups mixed with Larry Brown's stubborn love affair with corporate knowledge that results in only guys over 35 getting any serious run. That shit has to stop or Tim ain't winning another ring.

6. I'd actually keep Novak as that end of bench big that can shoot from the wing that you can trot out for 5-8 minutes a game and see if you can get some cheap threes from the corner (you know, what Bonner should have been).

7. Go back to defense. This fun 'n gun is fun to watch, but you can't win with it.

8. Get tough. We need the Horry/Bowen mentality to return to this squad. No more sissy ball. Find a tough post presence that can block some shots and a perimeter wing. It's comical that Memphis went out and got two guys who should have been on this squad (Allen and Battier) while we re-signed Richard fucking Jefferson for $40 million.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Not much to add here. I don't think we can trade RJ either.. so bringing him off the bench makes sense here. I would keep Manu as a starter.

At this point I don't think any significant changes to our roster is realistic. No one is gonna take RJ or Bonner and we probably won't spend the MLE (Although I hope we do if the right piece comes along.)

We should be able to find a team to take this season's three point fg% leader...

[Capt Bringdown]

Sorry man, but the Spurs simply don't have a franchise player anymore. They will probablly not start to rebuild until Tim and Manu's contracts are done but that doens't mean they shouldn't.

It was so brutal at times this series when it was obvious the Spurs didn't have a go to guy. They're not winning a ring in this NBA with Kobe, Durant, Rose, Lebron, etc without a similar player. Just the facts.

We've had years to bolster the big 3. All these rebuilding/retooling plans amount to more of the same, and don't recognize that we don't have a franchise player anymore. Yes, we've arrived at that point in history.

I don't know where to go from here - how do you acquire a franchise player and surround him with the right pieces?

I think the Spurs will take the most conservative option as they always do & we're going to be like the Utah Jazz during the last days of Stockton/Malone.

[angelbelow]

Duncan might not be mobile, but he is, at absolute worst, a top five defender in the league. It's not a coincidence that the one time in the last five years that the Spurs bothered to have someone beside him who was remotely capable of playing passable NBA defense, they won a title. He was clearly fresh during the playoffs, so removing him as the offensive focal point was a step in the right direction.

BTW, it might take Neal to get someone to take RJ. Would you do it?

I just dont see trading RJ as a possibility. Maybe if this was 2005 and it seemed like our franchise could make no mistakes.

I don't think we'll see significant changes with our roster. We just have to make some internal changes. Starting and playing Taigo 25+ minutes is a must. I like playing Blair as the 3rd big because I don't see us adding on another capable big.

I think an exciting part of training camp will be Neal vs. Anderson vs. Bulter. Hopefully they all emerge as contributors so we have RJ insurance.

[DPG21920]

Don't touch Tim/TP/Manu if you can help it. Other than that, I don't care at the moment.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Oh, and I'd like to point out that both Marc Gasol and Shane Battier will be free agents next season.

Just sayin'.

[DDS4]

Obviously, this is really, really, really early and I have kept myself from thinking about it until now ... but here is my five step rebuilding plan to turn this squad into a legit contender. Please post yours.

1. Start Tiago Splitter next to Tim Duncan and bring DeJuan Blair off the bench as the first big. Splitter needs to play big minutes in an attempt to revitalize the defense. Blair's explosiveness and energy will be great if he buys into the bench role. And his size won't be too much of an issue if he's playing mostly next to Splitter or Duncan.

2. Send Manu Ginobili and Richard Jefferson to the bench. Ginobili needs to conserve his body in the regular season. And I think he can be just as productive to the success of the team by giving the Spurs the best bench punch in the league. As for RJ, you'd obviously try to trade him but that won't happen. Playing him off the bench at least makes it so that anything he gives you is a bonus. He can't be relied upon, as was reinforced in this series.

3. Let George Hill, Gary Neal, James Anderson, Danny Green and Da'Sean Butler fight for starting spots. Bring in other young wings who are hungry to join the fight. To get back to a true championship level, the Spurs will need a couple swingmen to emerge.

4. Don't rely as much on three-pointers. I'll take 50 playoff-style wins over 60 fun-and-gun wins if it means the team is built for postseason success.

5. Don't panic too much. It's not time to start over. The Big 3 needs to be remained intact at all costs. Find a group of role players willing to compete. Revert to a playoff style strategy. Try again.


What would you do?

Thanks.

What's maddening is--all of your points could have been started this year.

[TDMVPDPOY]

7. Consider moving Tony Parker. While I don't advocate this whole-heartedly, I would listen to offers for Parker. It's not that I want him gone, but if some team knocks the Spurs socks off with an offer, I would consider it. However if said offer should include a nice, young player and a high draft pick, the Spurs would be foolish not to listen. It would be a nice way to start stockpiling some assets.



if westbrook continues to be a clown thinkn his the top dog on the thunder which hurts his team and whose the real franchise player, would the thunder do a deal with the spurs, trading starting pgs?

[mexpurs21]

this team is a perimeter defender away from being a legit contender. Who knows what JA/Green/Butler can bring next year...but that's a good crop of young talent who can defend.

If you're RC, you're calling Kahn in Minnesota every day til training camp and try and convince him that RJ still has shit left in the tank. He's dumb enough to believe him.

This team is absolutely done for 8-10 years when Timmy hangs them up. I'm not sure why so many people are anxious to see him retire now and trade TP so that number can be reduced to 7-9 years.

Til the wheels fall off. The Big 3 aren't going to quit. So don't fucking quit on them.

:lol
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=3khdj5t
:lol

[coachmac87]

1. George Hill or Gary Neal? Spurs have to choose one of these guys. Pretty much the same player as in they are undersized SG. I think they even have somewhat of vaule. I'd prefer Neal, but I bet Pop has George Hill on this one. Just pick one.

2. Manu off the Bench. Going back to #1 depending on who the Spurs pick, that person must start IMO. Both play out of their minds at times when they are aggressive or have their # called.. We all know what Manu can do on the bench and I doubt anybody will complain

3. Spurs need another low post scorer. Not sure how many people thought of this, but yeah having an talented offensive big next to Duncan would be more ideal than another shot blocker/or rebounder. Not sure how many people thought Splitter would be the solution to that but he is just waaaaaaaaaaayyyyyy behind offesnively. Don't have options on the top of my head but, Scola would be nice..

4. Trade RJ. He is the player I blame for a lot of things. He set us back 3 years. Will go down as one of the biggest Spurs bust and possibly one of the most overrated basketball player I have ever seen. Jason Kidd truly did him wonders. It's truly to the point where it doesn't matter what we get....just get rid of him somehow.

5. Stress Defense. Spurs defense was just pitiful at times this year, we couldn't get a rebound or stop when it counted mostly all season. It starts with Pop and his rotations IMO. I know why Bonner plays because he shoots 50% from 3 and he WORKS HARDER CONSISTENTLY THAN ANY SPUR ON THE ROSTER. <<<< Real reason Pop has a man crush. He can stress defense all he wants but if the players he puts out there night in and night out can't play it becasuse of physical limitations. You can't blame them. Only the coach.

[Brutalis]

Ryan Richards is not ready for the NBA... seriously folks... he needs D-League time first...

[024]

i don't agree. don't reload, rebuild.

you guys can close your eyes and cross your fingers all you want but this trio is done. they were done after the phoenix sweep and the grizzlies defeat is just confirmation. start rebuilding now instead of risking more crappy contracts like jefferson and bonner's. spurs wanted to hold on to this core so badly they desperately took these contracts and now they are digging themselves a hole. stop digging and accept the fate. rebuild.

[vednam]

The spurs need more active bodies in the front court. Duncan and McDyess were very competent skill-wise in the series, but they didn't have the energy and speed to get the loose balls and rebounds that are needed and make the rotations in time.

I think a little bit of that kind of stuff that was lost when Blair went to the bench (of course, Blair had to be benched because he can't credibly guard quality big men).

Fortunately, the Spurs have a guy in Splitter who can bring the energy Blair brought, but with the necessary size. However, I think they also need to look for an energetic small forward.

[lmbebo]

1. I think we need more size. McDyess is gone now. I think we need another 7 footer and someone who can match up with the more athletic 4s in this league. Z-bo was a tough cougher, but Arthur chewed us up as well. We got out muscled and out hustled.

1b. Trader Bonner? I don't see Pop moving him down the rotation. He's great as a 4th big off of the bench. Not as your first one. He hustles and a great piece for the team. But he's being over utilized.

2. We need a more effective perimeter player. RJ is not it. He started off the season great and disappeared. I think him moving on would be good for the team and for himself. Just not sure what he will get us. Most likely a worse contract for a player playing below expectations.

3. Need a a perimeter player with some attitude and defensive ability. Honestly, someone like Tony Allen. Someone who will get after you.

4. Slow the game down for the team. Make them a top 3 defensive team again.

In Tim's early days, they built around him by adding key vets. Now, this team needs to add talent and youth to an older Tim. While we've found guys like Hill, Neal and Blair. They really haven't addressed the areas that were needed.

5. Maybe more of a pure point guard to back up TP? GHill is more of a 2 who can handle the ball. Or maybe someone like Nate Robinson?

6. Keep Neal coming off of the bench. He's instant offense kind of player. Not a starter.

[coachmac87]

Oh, and I'd like to point out that both Marc Gasol and Shane Battier will be free agents next season.

Just sayin'.

Battier. :wow To me he is the closest thing we can get to a Bruce Bowen. Dude is a pro, and he can shoot the 3. ANd he wont be expensive.

[TJastal]

1- Agree 100%. I think Pop will start Tiago but Bonner will be the 1st big off the bench.

2- Agree about Manu. Spurs must trade Jefferson

3 - Start Neal at SG. Find a reliable backup PG. We'll need Hill to make a RJ trade. Hope Anderson or Butler can be a rotation player

4 - Agree, bring back the old Spurs defense first and find guys who want to play D

5 - I'd also give the big 3 one more run.

I hope they try to trade Jefferson on draft day, after it, with the new CBA will be almost impossible

These two bolded statements are not mutually exclusive.

[vednam]

Above all else, I think everyone should enjoy what is left of the Big Three, even if the Spurs fail to contend the next few years.

Even tonight, I marveled at some of the difficult drives to the paint by Manu and Tony, and some of Duncan's blocked shots.

Timmy is not the player he used to be, but guys like him come around very rarely. Enjoy every last bank-shot and jump-hook you see.


Manu and Tony have their limitations (which have been exposed since Duncan's decline), but they are still very special players. Ginobili does some incredible things. Watching him drive to the basket is a thing of beauty. Tony Parker is not in the same league as, say, Chris Paul as an all-around point guard. But I don't think I've ever seen any point guard finish around the basket as well as Tony.

[Master splitter]

Kevin love
Minesota is stupid
Kevin love
Minesota is stupid
Kevin love

[ShoogarBear]

-We have to accept that the Tim Duncan of this playoff is the Tim Duncan we're going to see mostly from now on.

-Even if you move Splitter to the starting lineup, you still need another true big if you're going to play playoff basketball. I like Blair and think he can still be a factor, but for the Spurs to be serious they need Splitter AND an upgrade on McDyess.

-I think we've seen about everything George Hill is going to be. And while I'm happy with Neal, he's 26 and doesn't have much more of a ceiling either.

-Anderson is the only true undeveloped talent currently on the Spurs. He has potential, but not as the shutdown perimeter defender they need. I'd like to see a lot more of Green. Butler is still a shot in the dark.

-Nobody is taking Jefferson for more than 50 cents on the dollar in value. The only thing you can really hope for is cap flexibility.

-Bonner actually was a step up from being completely useless in the playoffs this year. But if the Spurs are still using him to guard scoring 4s next year, the season will be over before it's begun.

-Truly, the best thing for the long-term future of the team would be to break up the big 3, so I don't blame people who advocate that. But I don't want to do that and am willing to exchange that for a few painful years of mediocrity.

[coachmac87]

10) Pop needs to get his shit together and revert back to the system that those championship teams were built upon. Don't have the players? Get them. Can't get them? Well, fuck it then. We'll have to wait to rebuild after a few more years.

IMHO.[/QUOTE]

Let's all be real we can post all we want to post. But this one nailed it. :toast

[DPG21920]

-Truly, the best thing for the long-term future of the team would be to break up the big 3, so I don't blame people who advocate that. But I don't want to do that and am willing to exchange that for a few painful years of mediocrity.

[Master splitter]

Trade splitter, hill, Blair, for Kevin love and rights to Ricky Rubio.
Trade RJ, james Anderson, bonner, and mcdysse for Danny granger.
Try to sign Olden only at MLE.

[mingus]

i think you trade Manu and TP. the one guy i would NEVER trade on the Spurs is Tim Duncan, no matter his contract. i'm not sure Manu and TP would be opposed to it either if they are going to a better situation, which would probably be the case. teams trading for those two guys would probably be one piece away from contention, like New York.

[Doe]

I agree with Manny, this team doesn't have a go to go guy. We saw flashes of TP and Manu being able to do that, but not consistently. They could throw it into Randolph and have a guaranteed bucket. I'm more of the mindset that the roster should be blown up, as painful as it would be to swallow.

If the Spurs continue to try to reload, which I think they'll probably do then...

- The Bonner experiment really needs to end. I don't need to say anything further as it's been discussed ad nauseam.

- The magnitude of extending RJ is really starting to seep in. Highly questionable at the time, colossally stupid now. He needs to play a marginal role like you said.

- George Hill? I don't know about this kid. Did he choke this year or was he just playing horribly in a road game as he did all year long? Regardless, when he's passive (which is too often) he's a soft and scared player. Add on RJ and Bonner and that's too many of these types of players. I'd look to trade Hill for a more useful piece.

They need to find a guy on the wing who can adequately defend premier players (no Udoka-types please). Defense on the perimeter in general needs to put under the microscope. When you're so soft that shitty shooters like Tony Allen and unproven rookies like Vasquez have supreme confidence against you, there's a big problem. Same Young made like 18 threes in the regular season and against the Spurs he's busting clutch threes.

[Cane]

The Spurs almost got away with a healthy season. They're just not competitive enough with even one starter injured and it seemed like Duncan, Manu, and Dice were all pretty banged up towards the end of the season and they all tweaked some injuries in the playoffs too.

Beyond being healthy (which is a daunting goal), the Spurs need more active and athletic size. They could use a 260+ lber to give them a few minutes against the giants of the league like the Gasols. The Spurs need a legit back-up (or starting) SF. Spurs relied too much on Manu as a SF which led to a guard heavy lineup that'll get exposed by the Grizz and even the Suns last year as well. Bonner and Blair playing as your frontcourt just won't cut it either and even the Suns can throw out young giants out there in Gortat and Lopez.

I don't see the Spurs tanking unless the Big 3 get season-ending injuries or if they're broken up completely. The Spurs organization also have to take into account what Duncan wants (competitive or I guess at least a winning team) and the Spurs fanbase and most of San Antonio probably wants to cheer for the Big 3 until they're retired anyway.

There'll be undoubtedly a ton of movement in the NBA but who knows what the CBA has in store.

[Chomag]

I would love to see the Spurs take a chance for at least a 1 year contract on Greg Oden at the MLE.

IT a small chance but possible imo. Oden would have a chip on his shoulder to prove in that 1 year to the Spurs or other teams that he is worth more money later.

[NASpurs]

I want the players that are brought in next season to fight it out for minutes and none of this "corporate knowledge" shit! Give the best players and those who deserve it minutes. Don't be afraid to bench players like Jefferson who suck and don't wait 'til the last game of the season to do it. Pop used to be of the philosophy of strong defense and not be afraid to bench those who were sucking. WTF has happened to Pop? Who the hell brainwashed his ass that playing up-tempo offense with liabilities on defense was going to get them somewhere. What I'm saying is that it all starts and ends with Pop.

But saying all of that, I don't even know what to think of this team anymore. Are the Spurs really missing pieces to compete for a championship or is it just me being delusional as a fan to think they have a shot next year? The Spurs don't have players anymore that can take over a game and grip it to their will. This team reminds me more of a Nuggets team with talent but no real MVP type players... maybe that's a bad comparison but who knows.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

i think you trade Manu and TP. the one guy i would NEVER trade on the Spurs is Tim Duncan, no matter his contract. i'm not sure Manu and TP would be opposed to it either if they are going to a better situation, which would probably be the case. teams trading for those two guys would probably be one piece away from contention, like New York.

It's tough to envision any of the big three not retiring a Spur.

No way on Tim.

Manu should have the opportunity to retire in SA. He loves it there, and the hispanic community loves him and his passion. It just wouldn't be right for him to go anywhere else.

As much as I criticize Parker, it'd be hard to see him go. That said, Parker's likely the most appealing for other teams.

Perhaps you could trade him for a disgrunted Chris Paul, a cocky Rusell Westbrook, something like that.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I would love to see the Spurs take a chance for at least a 1 year contract on Greg Oden at the MLE.

IT a small chance but possible imo. Oden would have a chip on his shoulder to prove in that 1 year to the Spurs or other teams that he is worth more money later.

Oden will never play a playoff game in his career. This would be almost as big a waste as RJ's extension last summer.

[Capt Bringdown]

Timmy is not the player he used to be, but guys like him come around very rarely. Enjoy every last bank-shot and jump-hook you see.


Even a broke-ass Hakeem could execute a doddering spin move against some nameless scrub during the final minutes of a Raptors game, that doesn't mean it was a moment to cherish.
God forbid TD suffer a similar fate, although it's a matter of laughing all the way to the bank, ain't it?

[xellos88330]

I would say to get a tall, long, athletic, mobile shot blocker and a defensive SF.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Without Duncan at an all-star level there is no chance the Spurs can contend. They probably won't start rebuilding until Tim's and Manu's contracts expire and will just roll with what they have even if it's a 1st/2nd round ceiling team.

I just hope they are able to stockpile some talent and look for trades for younger players even taking some risks but either way we've been treated great by this team for such a long time that I have no problem watching the big 3 just finish their careers together ( Tim and Manu , as Parker is younger ) and ride into the sunset.

[Master splitter]

Oh and fire pop please

[TDMVPDPOY]

mayeb should target al jefferson in a trade...

[pad300]

1) Get rid of the PUSSY characters the Spurs have acquired over the last few years. The key characteristic of the championship Spurs teams was toughness (not, as some mistook it, character). This means personnel changeover. Key players that HAVE to go - Bonner and RJ.
2) The bigs needs to get bigger. Key characteristics that continue to win in the NBA - frontline SIZE. The Lakers are huge. The Grizzlies have a bucket of muscle. Boston`s championship teams were big. The Bulls are big up front.
3) Either fire Pop, or force a number 2 who he will have to listen to on him. We need to bring along younger players, sacrificing regular season wins if neccessary.

Trade Bonner, RJ, Hill, 2011 First round pick for Andris Biedrins and Dorrel Wright.

Next Years lineup
Bigs - TD, Splitter, Biedrins, Blair, Richards (as 5th big, to develop),
Wings - Wright, Anderson, Hill, Neal, Green / Butler
PG - TP, Manu, T-Mac (yes, he was playing PG for the pistons this year)

Note that we will do a lot of 2 PG sets...
Take a shot at getting Oden with the MLE.
Try and find a 3 who can shoot and play D as an FA.

[mingus]

It's tough to envision any of the big three not retiring a Spur.

No way on Tim.

Manu should have the opportunity to retire in SA. He loves it there, and the hispanic community loves him and his passion. It just wouldn't be right for him to go anywhere else.

As much as I criticize Parker, it'd be hard to see him go. That said, Parker's likely the most appealing for other teams.

Perhaps you could trade him for a disgrunted Chris Paul, a cocky Rusell Westbrook, something like that.

there's a lot to explore with Parker, for sure. you can trade him and wait for Duncan to retire the following year. then you'd be left with Manu and RJ (assumming the Spurs can't find a way to trade RJ, which i can't imagine they will), and the Spurs would suck really suck that year. get a lotto pick that year and hopefully the next. yeah, keeping Manu would be great. now that i think about it, you're probably right.

best case scenario would be to trade TP, and find someone willing to take RJ. throw in Neal or Hill, or shit even both, if you have to, but for Christ's sake get this f'n guy outta here.

if the Spurs can find a way to start sucking really bad for the next couple of year w/o giving up Manu and definitely not TD, that would be ideal. i just hate the idea of being too good to get a high lotto pick.

[ElNono]

Trade Bonner, RJ, Hill, 2011 First round pick for Andris Biedrins and Dorrel Wright.

Next Years lineup
Bigs - TD, Splitter, Biedrins, Blair, Richards (as 5th big, to develop),
Wings - Wright, Anderson, Hill, Neal, Green / Butler
PG - TP, Manu, T-Mac (yes, he was playing PG for the pistons this year)


???? :lol

[baseline bum]

???? :lol

Hill would get bought out and return... duh.

[stealthjbravo]

Trade RJ, Bonner, Hill, Blair, along with our 29th spot in the draft for Le' Tarcus and 2 2nd round draft picks. Draft Leroy Bushca and Lucas Nogueira. Trade Leroy Bushca to washington for their D-League 3 stud Kenni Reminche plus $. Give the MLE to Oden if possible but more than likely offer it to Al Jefferson.

[pad300]

???? :lol

Minor Brain Fart... I originally had Blair in that trade and forgot to chop Hill from the roster when I changed it. I`m still not sure which of them GS would want.

[phxspurfan]

Obviously, this is really, really, really early and I have kept myself from thinking about it until now ... but here is my five step rebuilding plan to turn this squad into a legit contender. Please post yours.

1. Start Tiago Splitter next to Tim Duncan and bring DeJuan Blair off the bench as the first big. Splitter needs to play big minutes in an attempt to revitalize the defense. Blair's explosiveness and energy will be great if he buys into the bench role. And his size won't be too much of an issue if he's playing mostly next to Splitter or Duncan.

2. Send Manu Ginobili and Richard Jefferson to the bench. Ginobili needs to conserve his body in the regular season. And I think he can be just as productive to the success of the team by giving the Spurs the best bench punch in the league. As for RJ, you'd obviously try to trade him but that won't happen. Playing him off the bench at least makes it so that anything he gives you is a bonus. He can't be relied upon, as was reinforced in this series.

3. Let George Hill, Gary Neal, James Anderson, Danny Green and Da'Sean Butler fight for starting spots. Bring in other young wings who are hungry to join the fight. To get back to a true championship level, the Spurs will need a couple swingmen to emerge.

4. Don't rely as much on three-pointers. I'll take 50 playoff-style wins over 60 fun-and-gun wins if it means the team is built for postseason success.

5. Don't panic too much. It's not time to start over. The Big 3 needs to be remained intact at all costs. Find a group of role players willing to compete. Revert to a playoff style strategy. Try again.


What would you do?

Thanks.


After thinking about it a few hours, I agree. The Celtics (my pick to win it all this year) did it with their aging core, and we can do it too. Re-tool, get Splitter, Hill and Neal more burn, and get back on the horsie.

[duncan228]

The media starts. Hit the link for their answers.


Roundtable: What now for Spurs? (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/basketball/nba/04/27/spurs.roundtable/)
SI.com

* The Spurs were the best regular-season team for most of the year and led the West with a 61-21 record. How do you explain their first-round loss to 46-win Memphis?

* How would you assess the chances of this team's core ever competing for a championship again?

* Tim Duncan, who turned 35 this week, has a $21 million player option for next season. What is the most likely scenario for him?
A) Play out his contract
B) Opt out and sign a longer deal with San Antonio
C) Opt out and sign with another team
D) Retire

* Assuming Duncan returns, what can the Spurs do to improve?

* Gregg Popovich is the NBA's longest-tenured coach, with 15 seasons in San Antonio. How much longer do you see the 62-year-old Popovich coaching the Spurs?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/basketball/nba/04/27/spurs.roundtable/

[1Parker1]

Zebo was a franchise player this series. Thats what the Spurs are missing.

I think the combination of a healthy Ginobili/Parker are good enough for the Spurs "go-to scoring options."

Zbo is an inside player and if the Spurs had enough size and athleticism at that position, he could have been contained somewhat.

The problem is, Spurs didn't have enough role players providing offense to take some strain off Parker/Ginobili. And you can tell by their body language in the losses...it's hard to continue scoring on one end while your team is just giving up points on the other end.

Spurs need to drop this whole run and gun offense and find defensive minded players.

[Flux451]

Size, athleticism, backup pg, defense

[DrSteffo]

Well number 2 is difficult to understand and will not happen. We have ONE half legit sf so we have to go with him. If we go into next season without TWO legit sf we are doomed. I don't like 3-guard rotations in the playoffs. I am not counting on D-league caliber players to develop.

[roycrikside]

C'mon LJ...

I respect you dude, but be real. It's over. It's really fucking over. This is your second lamest thread ever, only to that one you tried to start in 2009 before the first round series against the Mavs when you wrote "How the Spurs can win the title without Manu," when it was so plainly obvious to anyone with a brain that they'd be bounced (and easily) in the first round without Ginobili.

Anyway, the reason the Spurs lost to the Grizzlies was simple: They didn't have the best player in the series.

The common theme for all the Spurs title runs was that Tim was their best player and one of the two or three best in the league. Now, he's a shell of himself. Realistically, on a championship team the 2011 Tim Duncan would have to be their fourth, maybe fifth player, their McDyess, more or less.

I'm the biggest Manu homer on the planet, and even I know no team can win a title with Ginobili as their best player - especially the 2011 Ginobili. I'm not even sure the Spurs would've won it with the '05 version. On a title team this Ginobili should be the second best or more ideally the third best player.

No team can win a title with Parker as their second best player. He's a third banana. Always has been, always will be.

George Hill was a third guard for us. On a championship squad he'd be a fourth guard, seeing maybe 10 minutes a night in the playoffs. With him and Neal we basically had two fourth guards and one of them was masquerading as a third guard. He's a tad better than an '07 Jacque Vaughn but definitely less useful than an '05 Brent Barry.

Bonner is a 5th forward, at best. On a title squad he'd have the same role as Novak has now, which is none at all. McDyess and Blair are also 4th/5th guys. No more than spot backups for that superstar power forward who plays 40 minutes.

And most of all, no championship team would ever EVER have a guy as soft, mentally weak and fundamentally awful as Jefferson on their team. The guy is meant to be a career Golden State Warrior, someone who can score a meaningless 18 points every night, give up 25 on the other end and enjoy his vacation after game 82. He is a fucking loser.

The ONLY way the Spurs have a chance is if something crazy happens where Duncan either comes back for the veteran's minimum and the team uses the cap savings to find a land a legit superstar like Dwight Howard (who is also mentally weak like RJ, but he can at least actually play).

If the Magic see the writing on the wall that he's gonna be gone after the year, maybe they can do something crazy and trade Howard for 25 cents on the dollar for Tony. But more likely he'll go to somewhere else like LA or Boston, since the league is rigged for those teams to always be good.

If we can't land a superstar, then I would think Duncan will just choose to retire and maybe the Spurs will give Manu the option of trying to work a trade for someone else (he'd fit well in OKC or Chicago) or to remain on the Spurs.

[Hoops Czar]

Obviously, this is really, really, really early and I have kept myself from thinking about it until now ... but here is my five step rebuilding plan to turn this squad into a legit contender. Please post yours.

1. Start Tiago Splitter next to Tim Duncan and bring DeJuan Blair off the bench as the first big. Splitter needs to play big minutes in an attempt to revitalize the defense. Blair's explosiveness and energy will be great if he buys into the bench role. And his size won't be too much of an issue if he's playing mostly next to Splitter or Duncan.

2. Send Manu Ginobili and Richard Jefferson to the bench. Ginobili needs to conserve his body in the regular season. And I think he can be just as productive to the success of the team by giving the Spurs the best bench punch in the league. As for RJ, you'd obviously try to trade him but that won't happen. Playing him off the bench at least makes it so that anything he gives you is a bonus. He can't be relied upon, as was reinforced in this series.

3. Let George Hill, Gary Neal, James Anderson, Danny Green and Da'Sean Butler fight for starting spots. Bring in other young wings who are hungry to join the fight. To get back to a true championship level, the Spurs will need a couple swingmen to emerge.

4. Don't rely as much on three-pointers. I'll take 50 playoff-style wins over 60 fun-and-gun wins if it means the team is built for postseason success.

5. Don't panic too much. It's not time to start over. The Big 3 needs to be remained intact at all costs. Find a group of role players willing to compete. Revert to a playoff style strategy. Try again.


What would you do?

Thanks.

The big three isn't good enough anymore. George Hill is trade bait and if the right deal comes along, package him and Blair in a deal that will bring another inside presence. (ie. Kevin Love) If they're reluctant, throw in Bonner for good measure.

[The_Worlds_finest]

Tayshaun Prince is up. He would be a damn good spur and Rj could back him up incase RJs butt is sore from the night before

[objective]

Like others, I'll have to post my own, true reality, objectified rebuilding plan later.

But I'll post this for now, and I see a few people already are wise enough to know it:

RJ and Bonner CAN NOT be in uniform next season. Maybe the Spurs can't find anyone dumb enough to take them in a trade, but they can not be allowed into uniform.

Anyone who even thinks that RJ can perform off the bench or the other canard that Bonner is best in 15 minutes is FOOLING THEMSELVES.

It's like when people talked themselves into thinking that Pop was right for not playing Splitter at the start of the playoffs. You guys knew better, but you still talked yourself into it.

Don't make the same mistake with RJ and Bonner . . . especially RJ.

He can not start.

He can not come off the bench.

He can not be a part of the Spurs team. And that is the case no matter what.

If TD retires and they trade Manu and Parker to get pieces to rebuild . . . RJ can not play, even off the bench.

If they convince themselves they're contenders again and go for a ring . . . RJ can not play, even off the bench.

If they decide to have a smooth decline and just enjoy the last years of TD and Manu on a nostalgic farewell tour that lasts another couple of years before the true rebuild starts . . . RJ can not play, even off the bench.

NO JEFFERSON.

NO BONNER.

Contend or rebuild, it doesn't change. GET THOSE GUYS OFF THIS TEAM. I don't care if the Spurs rebuild or reload, but those two most of all drain the life out of the team.

[TJastal]

I would say to get a tall, long, athletic, mobile shot blocker and a defensive SF.

Kind of in the mold of Ian Mahinmi and Malik Haiston?

[ElNono]

Like others, I'll have to post my own, true reality, objectified rebuilding plan later.

But I'll post this for now, and I see a few people already are wise enough to know it:

RJ and Bonner CAN NOT be in uniform next season. Maybe the Spurs can't find anyone dumb enough to take them in a trade, but they can not be allowed into uniform.

Anyone who even thinks that RJ can perform off the bench or the other canard that Bonner is best in 15 minutes is FOOLING THEMSELVES.

It's like when people talked themselves into thinking that Pop was right for not playing Splitter at the start of the playoffs. You guys knew better, but you still talked yourself into it.

Don't make the same mistake with RJ and Bonner . . . especially RJ.

He can not start.

He can not come off the bench.

He can not be a part of the Spurs team. And that is the case no matter what.

If TD retires and they trade Manu and Parker to get pieces to rebuild . . . RJ can not play, even off the bench.

If they convince themselves they're contenders again and go for a ring . . . RJ can not play, even off the bench.

If they decide to have a smooth decline and just enjoy the last years of TD and Manu on a nostalgic farewell tour that lasts another couple of years before the true rebuild starts . . . RJ can not play, even off the bench.

NO JEFFERSON.

NO BONNER.

Contend or rebuild, it doesn't change. GET THOSE GUYS OFF THIS TEAM. I don't care if the Spurs rebuild or reload, but those two most of all drain the life out of the team.

Agree 100%... just like Finley after getting the extension, it just grows old and tired to see the same guys doing the same disappearing acts and constantly the same mistakes.

Don't get me wrong, nobody is pinning this series loss strictly on them. They're just part of the problem.

[TJastal]

I think the combination of a healthy Ginobili/Parker are good enough for the Spurs "go-to scoring options."

Zbo is an inside player and if the Spurs had enough size and athleticism at that position, he could have been contained somewhat.

The problem is, Spurs didn't have enough role players providing offense to take some strain off Parker/Ginobili. And you can tell by their body language in the losses...it's hard to continue scoring on one end while your team is just giving up points on the other end.

Spurs need to drop this whole run and gun offense and find defensive minded players.

Kind of in the mold of say, Ian Mahinmi & Malik Hairston?

[ElNono]

Kind of in the mold of say, Ian Mahinmi & Malik Hairston?

That's bridge under the water anyways since Pop had a different idea of the way he wanted this team to play. So, even if they would've been on the team, they would have probably been glued to the bench.

[TJastal]

That's bridge under the water anyways since Pop had a different idea of the way he wanted this team to play. So, even if they would've been on the team, they would have probably been glued to the bench.

EL Nono..gotta take 90% of my posts with a tongue in cheek approach.

:D

[Slippy]

Another step . Suppose you could put into the defense first, less 3 point orientated steps. Pop's philosophy on a stretch 4 - it's just not worth it. Hopefully we've seen the end of it.

[ElNono]

EL Nono..gotta take 90% of my posts with a tongue in cheek approach.

:D

:toast

[ElNono]

Another step . Suppose you could put into the defense first, less 3 point orientated steps. Pop's philosophy on a stretch 4 - it's just not worth it. Hopefully we've seen the end of it.

Not until redhead is gone. Until then, Pop will always think Matty will turn the corner and become Horry 2.

[20beastie45]

Get R.C. Buford to take a good hard look at how Championship teams are built again. or get some that understand

DEFENSE
REBOUNDING
SHOT BLOCKING
TOUGHNESS
MENTAL TOUGHNESS

Try to convince Holt to spend some money!

[Slippy]

Not until redhead is gone. Until then, Pop will always think Matty will turn the corner and become Horry 2.

Surely, he will be done with it by now. Too many faliures.


Im clinging to the hope that Pop decides to get back to his defensive roots and realize we don't have a Horry.

[Doe]

Surely, he will be done with it by now. Too many faliures.


Im clinging to the hope that Pop decides to get back to his defensive roots and realize we don't have a Horry.

I can't even say with any confidence that Bonner will no longer be a fixture in the rotation. This game certainly did nothing to ease my fears. Seriously WTF was RC/Pop smoking when they re-upped him after the last two disaster playoffs. There isn't even the Dallas excuse this year to fall back on.

[ElNono]

Surely, he will be done with it by now. Too many faliures.

Im clinging to the hope that Pop decides to get back to his defensive roots and realize we don't have a Horry.

Not going to happen. Remember Finley? It took Fin to ask to be traded for Pop to let go. And Pop was heartbroken over it.

[Nathan89]

Step 1- Trade RJ and Hill for Gerald Wallace

[TJastal]

Get R.C. Buford to take a good hard look at how Championship teams are built again. or get some that understand

DEFENSE
REBOUNDING
SHOT BLOCKING
TOUGHNESS
MENTAL TOUGHNESS

Try to convince Holt to spend some money!

Somehow I don't think Holt is gonna be in the money spending mood after getting gyped out of a ton of playoff revenue (no game 7.. no 2nd round, etc) and facing the prospect of paying Jefferson and Bonner 11m+ next season. :lol

[20beastie45]

Somehow I don't think Holt is gonna be in the money spending mood after getting gyped out of a ton of playoff revenue (no game 7.. no 2nd round, etc) and facing the prospect of paying Jefferson and Bonner 11m+ next season. :lol
Can Holt trade himself for Cuban:blah

JK

It would be nice if Holt spent more money

Oh well

[Bruno]

Five reasons why I disagree with timvp's retooling plan:

1. Duncan is done. Pop has been extra careful this season by limiting his minutes. He has only played 28mpg during the regular season. Despite that treatment, he hasn't been able to step up during the post season. And it's not like Gasol or Randolph are DPOY candidates. They wre just big bodies playing hard.

2. National teams. Unless a lockout change that, Parker and Ginobili will play this summer with their NT. Manu will be 34 and will be extra motivated with the competition being in Argentina. Parker has a lot of mileage and French NT summer will be one of the longest and more exhausting because FIBA has expanded the Eurobasket to more teams.

3. Pop is senile. Pop has been horrible this year. IMO, two quotes sum up well that. First, the "it isn't fair to the team" explanation given on why Splitter hasn't played more. Second, the "defense isn't the problem" comment made during the 6 games losing streak while the D was atrocious.

4. Spurs youth isn't that good. Blair and Hill have plateaued, Neal is a limited player, Anderson and Butler have had big injuries... There is nothing to gloat about Spurs young players. They could be fine as a supporting cast but expecting more from them is a reach.

5. Spurs FO won't be able to do a lot to improve the team this summer. On the paper, Spurs could package Dice partially guaranteed contract with draft pick(s) and young players like Blair or Hill. however, Spurs still have a shitload of money spend and I doubt the ownership will be fine with spending even more money for a first round exit team. For financial reasons, I also don't see Spurs their whole MLE this summer.


So my five step rebuilding plan:

1. Let Duncan retire. At this stage of his career, the best for him and for Spurs is likely a retirement. Gives him the $21.2M left on his contract and keep all the awesome memories he brought to Spurs.

2. Pop should retire. A lot of great old coaches have recently retire or will likely retire (Don Nelson, Jerry Sloan, Larry Brown, Par Ryley, Phil Jackson, Rick Adelman, Mike Dunleavy). It's time for Pop to follow them. Spurs should have a young coach to start their rebuilding process.

3. Trade Parker, Ginobili and Bonner for expiring, prospects and picks. Parker and Ginobili should fetch some interesting young players and draft picks. Bonner contract isn't bad so Spurs should be able to switch him with an expiring contract.

4. Be patient with RJ's contract. Spurs shouldn't be desperate for dumping RJ to the point of using assets just to get rid of him. You don't need cap space at a start of rebuilding process. Cap space is just needed at the end of it and RJ's contract could be off the book at that stage of the process. His trade value could also improve with Spurs rebuilding and him playing a bigger role. He was a good player before his stint here.

5. Draft is the key. Spurs will have a hard time doing like Miami and attract to tier free agents. In order to get great draft picks, Spurs will need to be really bad 2 or 3 years in a row. It will be painful for fans to follow that but it is a necessary evil.

[TDMVPDPOY]

sfs we should look at if they are available in our price range

prince
ak47
battier

[MaNu4Tres]

You don't need cap space at a start of rebuilding process. Cap space is just needed at the end of it and RJ's contract could be off the book at that stage of the process.

5. Draft is the key. Spurs will have a hard time doing like Miami and attract to tier free agents. In order to get great draft picks, Spurs will need to be really bad 2 or 3 years in a row. It will be painful for fans to follow that but it is a necessary evil.

:tu

Agreed on these points 100%

[objective]

I largely agree with Bruno's assesments, though I wouldn't be too heartbroken with a nostalgia farewell tour of the 'big 3' for another year.


Five reasons why I disagree with timvp's retooling plan:

1. Duncan is done. Pop has been extra careful this season by limiting his minutes. He has only played 28mpg during the regular season. Despite that treatment, he hasn't been able to step up during the post season. And it's not like Gasol or Randolph are DPOY candidates. They wre just big bodies playing hard.

Agree. Duncan is just going to end up like Hakeem with the Raptors if he keeps playing. Sad play and a mess of missed games. It's not there yet, but time destroys everything, eventually.


2. National teams. Unless a lockout change that, Parker and Ginobili will play this summer with their NT. Manu will be 34 and will be extra motivated with the competition being in Argentina. Parker has a lot of mileage and French NT summer will be one of the longest and more exhausting because FIBA has expanded the Eurobasket to more teams.

True.


3. Pop is senile. Pop has been horrible this year. IMO, two quotes sum up well that. First, the "it isn't fair to the team" explanation given on why Splitter hasn't played more. Second, the "defense isn't the problem" comment made during the 6 games losing streak while the D was atrocious.

Absolutely true. Pop has lost it, lost it years ago.


4. Spurs youth isn't that good. Blair and Hill have plateaued, Neal is a limited player, Anderson and Butler have had big injuries... There is nothing to gloat about Spurs young players. They could be fine as a supporting cast but expecting more from them is a reach.

Largely agree. Both Hill and Blair should be moved, they don't have anywhere else to go as Spurs. I have hope for Anderson though.


5. Spurs FO won't be able to do a lot to improve the team this summer. On the paper, Spurs could package Dice partially guaranteed contract with draft pick(s) and young players like Blair or Hill. however, Spurs still have a shitload of money spend and I doubt the ownership will be fine with spending even more money for a first round exit team. For financial reasons, I also don't see Spurs their whole MLE this summer.

True. They might even have to sell their 1st rounder thanks to RJ and Bonner. No MLE makes it harder to even get former 2nd rounders signed.



So my five step rebuilding plan:

1. Let Duncan retire. At this stage of his career, the best for him and for Spurs is likely a retirement. Gives him the $21.2M left on his contract and keep all the awesome memories he brought to Spurs.

I'm torn and see both sides. But do have to say that I don't want to see Duncan turn into Raptor Hakeem. I don't want to see Orlando Ewing. I don't want to see Wizards Jordan. Duncan has always done what's best for the Spurs . . . and maybe the best thing he could do at the end is to force the Spurs to change and rebuild.


2. Pop should retire. A lot of great old coaches have recently retire or will likely retire (Don Nelson, Jerry Sloan, Larry Brown, Par Ryley, Phil Jackson, Rick Adelman, Mike Dunleavy). It's time for Pop to follow them. Spurs should have a young coach to start their rebuilding process.

I agree on Pop leaving but disagree on how it should happen. The BEST thing to happen is for the Spurs to make it clear through back channels that they will grant permission for other teams to talk to Pop. The Lakers, the Magic, and even the Knicks could have coaching changes. Pop still carries a good reputation as one of the greatest coaches ever, even if he doesn't deserve that label now or maybe even ever.

He could then make big time money from one of those teams and take Budenholzer with him. This might not happen if Duncan doesn't retire, but it's what I hope would happen. Pop shouldn't be forced to coach the Spurs through the brutal rebuild. Nor should the Spurs be forced to have the same issues because Pop is still around.


3. Trade Parker, Ginobili and Bonner for expiring, prospects and picks. Parker and Ginobili should fetch some interesting young players and draft picks. Bonner contract isn't bad so Spurs should be able to switch him with an expiring contract.


I'd be fine with that. I also would be fine with a farewell tour or two, especially with Manu. Bonner is trash and should be eliminated no matter what course the Spurs take.


4. Be patient with RJ's contract. Spurs shouldn't be desperate for dumping RJ to the point of using assets just to get rid of him. You don't need cap space at a start of rebuilding process. Cap space is just needed at the end of it and RJ's contract could be off the book at that stage of the process. His trade value could also improve with Spurs rebuilding and him playing a bigger role. He was a good player before his stint here.

Disagree somewhat. No matter what, RJ can't be allowed to be on the active roster. He's done. He's just the kind of player to get fat after the lockout on the partyboat, and his declining athleticism will fall off a cliff. Combine that with his soft laziness, and he's one of the worst contracts in the league.

If Spurs fans have to suffer through a long rebuild, fine. But they should never have to see RJ vomit on the court with his garbage play. He sucks the joy out of watching the Spurs. If he gets treated like Tinsley or Eddy Curry, I'm happy with that. But a single minute of RJ takes away from whatever prospect could have been playing.


5. Draft is the key. Spurs will have a hard time doing like Miami and attract to tier free agents. In order to get great draft picks, Spurs will need to be really bad 2 or 3 years in a row. It will be painful for fans to follow that but it is a necessary evil.

Will the Spurs even be able to afford to keep their first rounder in 2011 thanks to RJ? Even in a bad draft class, I'd hate to see RJ and Bonner screw the Spurs over again.

[TJastal]

And if Tim Duncan isn't ready to retire just yet?

[polandprzem]

And if Tim Duncan isn't ready to retire just yet?

We make him retire

[venitian navigator]

Five reasons why I disagree with timvp's retooling plan:

1. Duncan is done. Pop has been extra careful this season by limiting his minutes. He has only played 28mpg during the regular season. Despite that treatment, he hasn't been able to step up during the post season. And it's not like Gasol or Randolph are DPOY candidates. They wre just big bodies playing hard.

2. National teams. Unless a lockout change that, Parker and Ginobili will play this summer with their NT. Manu will be 34 and will be extra motivated with the competition being in Argentina. Parker has a lot of mileage and French NT summer will be one of the longest and more exhausting because FIBA has expanded the Eurobasket to more teams.

3. Pop is senile. Pop has been horrible this year. IMO, two quotes sum up well that. First, the "it isn't fair to the team" explanation given on why Splitter hasn't played more. Second, the "defense isn't the problem" comment made during the 6 games losing streak while the D was atrocious.

4. Spurs youth isn't that good. Blair and Hill have plateaued, Neal is a limited player, Anderson and Butler have had big injuries... There is nothing to gloat about Spurs young players. They could be fine as a supporting cast but expecting more from them is a reach.

5. Spurs FO won't be able to do a lot to improve the team this summer. On the paper, Spurs could package Dice partially guaranteed contract with draft pick(s) and young players like Blair or Hill. however, Spurs still have a shitload of money spend and I doubt the ownership will be fine with spending even more money for a first round exit team. For financial reasons, I also don't see Spurs their whole MLE this summer.


So my five step rebuilding plan:

1. Let Duncan retire. At this stage of his career, the best for him and for Spurs is likely a retirement. Gives him the $21.2M left on his contract and keep all the awesome memories he brought to Spurs.

2. Pop should retire. A lot of great old coaches have recently retire or will likely retire (Don Nelson, Jerry Sloan, Larry Brown, Par Ryley, Phil Jackson, Rick Adelman, Mike Dunleavy). It's time for Pop to follow them. Spurs should have a young coach to start their rebuilding process.

3. Trade Parker, Ginobili and Bonner for expiring, prospects and picks. Parker and Ginobili should fetch some interesting young players and draft picks. Bonner contract isn't bad so Spurs should be able to switch him with an expiring contract.

4. Be patient with RJ's contract. Spurs shouldn't be desperate for dumping RJ to the point of using assets just to get rid of him. You don't need cap space at a start of rebuilding process. Cap space is just needed at the end of it and RJ's contract could be off the book at that stage of the process. His trade value could also improve with Spurs rebuilding and him playing a bigger role. He was a good player before his stint here.

5. Draft is the key. Spurs will have a hard time doing like Miami and attract to tier free agents. In order to get great draft picks, Spurs will need to be really bad 2 or 3 years in a row. It will be painful for fans to follow that but it is a necessary evil.

Both TIMVP and Bruno have reasons for opposite perspective.
I prefer the conservative (TIMVP) one, but not entirely : all the points of Bruno are right, also if, imho, not totally right.

More than all, everything will depend by the outcome of a speech with our supposed "big three".

1) Tim is old and no more good enough to be decisive, but he's not completely done : just have to be kept is a reserve and teaching role if he wants to stay with us...and if he wants to go to a contender, I'm (sad but) fine with it, but only if the price is right

2) Manu and Tp wants both (legitimately) to play with their national teams...fine, but this decrease their market value and their energies for next seasons. Also in this case, be clear with them : we can't lose more time in developing players, so at the begionning of next season, their role will be coming from the bench...and if they want to go to a contender, see above...

3) Pop was not senile (how could be that a coach with the second best regular season record with a "senoile" big three" as best players?) but for sure was, and has been in the past, absurdely conservative and stubborn...but the point is that he's the only one to rapresent, for the nba world, the stability of the franchise. I say, pair him with someone (a la PJ Carlesimo) that can dispute him at the some lavel : the 2003 coaching has been maybe the best I've seen for the franchise

4) spurs youth is nothing to write home about, but is more than decent...at lest for a try giving them the right to play extended minutes from the beginning...Hill, Neal, Anderson (Butler-Green), Blair, Splitter (potentially Richards) are not a bad start, and we have to add to them our draft choice and whoever (young player) we can have from the free market or from trades. It's time to develop them and play the old ones only for limited time and just in case of play offs perspective.

5) draft can't be the main, and sure not the exclusive, way for being competitive again.
As I told in other threads, imho RJ could still be sold to some team (see clips) for interstin packages (see Kaman)...he's the typical wrong player for some "system" (our) and good for another (like the up tempo Clips). He could still be useful if, like should be imho, we decide to go "all in" with the young guns at least at the beginning of the season...but I think that his time with our team is ended.

That said, imho the real reasons we competed at the elite level for so many years were, more than all, a combination of :
1) having luck at the draft with Tim (and before D Rob) with pin-poin balls giving us the absolute first draft choice;
2) havin luck (yes, luck more than all) in drafting Manu (pick 59; not dreaming, at the time, of what he could have been) and TP (n° 28...just 'cause the Celts were without international scauting and preferred Forte...and someone else preferred Tinsley : nb remember that Pop didn't agree with this pick).

Draft can't be the only way and, in any case, you have to be extremely lucky with the years and players you choose...Bargnani or even K Martin aren't the same of a Tim or a Durant.
Lot of teams fail for decades basing their fortunes on draft only...let's see if we can use the draft for improvements on an already decent team (a la Lakers of the past)...

[Bruno]

I wouldn't be too heartbroken with a nostalgia farewell tour of the 'big 3' for another year.

The farewell tour will depend on Tim's choice. If he wants to play one more year, Spurs should postponed the rebuilding plan by one year. It's up to him. Does he want to continue to play at that low level for his standard with an average team around him?



If Spurs fans have to suffer through a long rebuild, fine. But they should never have to see RJ vomit on the court with his garbage play. He sucks the joy out of watching the Spurs. If he gets treated like Tinsley or Eddy Curry, I'm happy with that. But a single minute of RJ takes away from whatever prospect could have been playing.

I have no problem with Spurs telling RJ to stay home or trading him for an equally bad player with an equally bad contracts. I just don't want Spurs trading assets to dump RJ's contract while they don't really need additional capspace.



Will the Spurs even be able to afford to keep their first rounder in 2011 thanks to RJ? Even in a bad draft class, I'd hate to see RJ and Bonner screw the Spurs over again.

The 29th pick in a weak draft doesn't really matter. Spurs will need to be great at picking in 2012, 2013... when they will get lottery picks.

[LkrFan]

1. Acquire size. I would strongly consider trading TP to get a legit big, too. TP's game relies on speed to be affective. How much longer will he have elite speed? TP should be able to acquire a big that will take pressure off of TD.

2. When TP is traded, give the keys to G Hill. Hill is not TP, but I've seen enough of him (as an outsider to Spur Nation) to know that he is serviceable and is ready for Pop to give him the keys.

3. Start Splitter. Pop tripping. Didn't he immediately give the keys to TP (and Manu IIRC) and lived with his growing pains back in the day? Look how that turned out for TP. Splitter is a hustle player with size. I can't believe that Pop thought that Dice or Blair was a better option next to TD. Bigs take longer to develop. Pop not playing him this year will stunt his growth.

4. Keep Bonner. Yeah, I said it. Bonner "sucks" because you guys had to rely upon him to bang, rebound, swat, etc. like a typical big. That's not his game. It is very valuable to have Bonner bring an opposing big out of the lane because of the threat of his 3pt shot. Keep him as a situational bench player.

5. Start Choo Choo. You guys are rebuilding anyway. Might as well start Choo Choo and Hill together as a tandem. Ginobli has proven that he can be effective off of the bench and could bring some leadership to the 2nd unit. Besides, you guys need to be watching his minutes at this stage of his career.

Hill
Choo Choo
Dick
TD
Big (via trade) or Splitter

[Oh, Gee!!]

Step one-blow it up
Step two-get new coach and five new starters

[DrSteffo]

I cant believe some people here still want Prince. Why not get a young, promising, better SF instead with less money? The Pistons would love to get rid of Prince and their fans keep shopping him.

[kobyz]

trade Tim Duncan to Orlando give him a chance to win one more ring next to Howard!

[TJastal]

trade Tim Duncan to Orlando give him a chance to win one more ring next to Howard!

Depressing thought if the spurs shipped TD out, but it would allow for some new reconstruction to begin, and I have to admit to see Tim lift #5 might make it worth it.

[silk]

The spurs are already rebuilt but under a new name: here comes the Thunder, with a GM able to make impactful signings, a young coach who isn't an ass yet, a young humble franchise player, and several energetic and tough teammates.

Timmy & pop will come 'n say hi once in a while

[DarrinS]

I hate to say it, but I agree with Manny.

[spurspokesman]

Carl landryand m pietrus would fit well on this team

[diego]

what are the chances of the suns taking parker+bonner+blair+RJ for nash+gortat+childress? Eh, it would have to save them money, switch RJ for hill, how about that?

[Obstructed_View]

Anybody who thinks Duncan is done is a fucking retard. He just got done putting up 13 and 11 against a great defensive team with massive front line while his teammates failed to show up and his minutes were inexcplicably limited by his dumbass coach.

[silk]

Is Deron Williams reachable for tony parker and richard jefferson ?

[benefactor]

Anyone that thinks this team has anything left to contend really needs to take their head out of the sand. If you want to keep the Big 3 for nostalgic reasons then that is fine. All three have put in the work to earn that right. But don't kid yourself into thinking they can be anything they have been in the past. Once glance at the talented, up and coming teams in the league right now should be enough to convince anyone with any sort of objectivity.

I lean more towards Bruno's approach than any other. I love the Big 3...but there is only one face of this franchise and that is Tim Duncan. He and he alone should be the only player that is worthy to be called untouchable through this process. If they are going to keep the Big 3 intact then I agree with the dump RJ crowd. If they are not then I like the patience approach better...as Manu and Parker will bring good picks and good young players. Those picks/players will have a couple of seasons to develop and then RJ's large expiring could be enticing to team looking for relief that is willing to give up a good player in order get it.

[The Truth #6]

Explosion makes sense with an already screwed up/locked out season looming. The 3 still have something left in value so I can see the rationale for trading Tony and Manu. They would have value to some team. If we are going to rebuild then you keep RJ. The point in rebuilding is to lose games, right?

[silk]

Spurs run is finished. The next team who has what the spurs had may not even be in the NBA. French soccer team of 98 were the team that possessed the kind of grace Spurs 2K1-2K9 had.

[Obstructed_View]

Best starting backcourt in the NBA. Think about that, folks. Think about what that means. Think about all the teams that aren't as good.

Tim Duncan's defensive numbers. Look at them. Try to figure out how much of that comes from his incredible athletic plays and then figure out how many more years he can give you that.

I know you guys are depressed, but don't be fucking stupid. The Spurs have a championship core. They lost due to a hundred peripheral decisions along the way that in the end just added up and became too big to overcome.

With every "Duncan is done" or "Spurs have no talent" post or "Pop did the best with these dregs" post, I'm more and more sure that what the Spurs need more than anything else is a coaching change.

[SA210]

I'd like Pop to make the biggest adjustment, and turn back the clock to the days were he was a freaking asshole when somebody fucked up on defense. Sit them out, rip them a new asshole, etc etc etc... If the coach doesn't hold people accountable, we're just not going to change.



THIS!!!! WTF happened to that Pop, the coach that ripped you a new asshole because you missed a defensive rotation?? The coach that wouldn't give you playing time unless you played D?? Where did that dude go?

:pop::pctoss

[SA210]

I don't understand the impulse to put Manu back on the bench. Up until Pop decided to play him in an utterly meaningless game, where he suffered a freak injury, he was perfectly healthy and perfectly fresh for the postseason. The only way this makes any sense is if you decide that Parker/Anderson is a better starting lineup, and you only know that after you let them play together for a while.

Duncan and Splitter do not play the same position. The absolute biggest mistake of this season was thinking that's the case. Duncan can play 12-15 feet from the basket and still be able to defend. He needs someone with length beside him.

Exactly :toast

[SA210]

Bonner can't be on the roster when next season starts. Pop will go back to that scrub ass who has no business being in our rotation, let alone the first big off the bench. It's the Finley principle - as long as he's around, Pop will trot him out there to get abused.

[Josepatches_]

This team need BIG changes.We aren't going to win with the same core.

It's time to rebuilt.It's over.TD & manu are old.TP is out of gas.I don't know if we have to trade all them.I'd prefer to see them retiring as a Spur.

If we come back with the same core sure we'll make the playoffs but with zero chance to win.We only are wasting one more year.


What do you want? To win or to be in the middle of the league.

Tank next season and let's hope to find a new franchise player in the draft.We are going nowhere without him.

[Josepatches_]

Best starting backcourt in the NBA.

I'm not sure but none of them are dominant enough in the league.

I'd prefer to have only one superstar like Wade .

Anyway Manu will be one year older and he clearly will be another step down.Tony didn't look so good this year. He's young but he has a big mileage in his legs.Every year he seems to be worse in the spring.


Now let's see if the play this summer.Then I'd trade them

[ploto]

Duncan is not going to retire. Just because he is not the TD of 5 years ago does not mean he is done as an NBA player. I don't even think by now he would want to leave SA. He will not ride the coattails of some other team looking for a 5th ring. Let him hang out and shoot 15-footers and bank shots, and get someone else inside to bang around on offense (Splitter).

The most likely of the Big Three to be traded is definitely Parker.

Bonner would be OK for his salary if used properly, but Pop can not help himself.

The Spurs need some young guys who are about 6'7" and muscular, but then again don't we all!! :wow

[tlongII]

Tank and go for the #1 overall pick.

[quentin_compson]

I don't think that this team will be a contender again in the Duncan era (they weren't one this season as well, despite the great RS record), but as long as Tim plays, they probably won't blow this team up and will stay competitive enough to reach the playoffs.

[silverblk mystix]

What I read here more than anything is that everyone wants to contend for a title...but NO-ONE is willing to really change anything.

FOUR years in a row should be enough to tell you that this is not going to work.

#1) Pop needs to go. Time for a new coach, a new philosophy, new blood.

#2) Tim needs to retire--or at the very least -re-structure his contract and accept a role
as a reserve. I love Timmy to death but the wheels have fallen...in the second half
when he had an open lane to the basket and tried to SOFTLY lay it up...missed and
there wasn't even a foul called--said it all.

3) Manu & TP need to also accept a reserve role and/or get traded for young athletic
players that a NEW coach can mold into a tough athletic physical defensive unit.
Here again...if there is any player that I love more than Timmy---it is Manu...but the
only way I see these two worth keeping---is if they both renounce international play.
It is their choice...you want to win another NBA title and invest ALL your energy to the
SPURS...or do you want to give half allegiance to two teams and never win another '
title? Their answer should be the deciding factor of keeping them or letting them go
for fresh young talent.

4) RJ, Bonner, Hill....need to be fuckin' shipped anywhere for anything. Not kidding.
A team with championship aspirations needs mentally tough warriors who will kill to
win. All three of these idiots suck balls and always have --with an occasional bright
spot.

5) If any of these things aren't done...then please don't pretend that you want a title...
it will just be repeating the same result for five years in a row.


What the spurs are doing is the same as an inmate in prison who says he wants to be free...so he lobbies for better lighting, better food, better treatment,etc...

when- what he SHOULD be doing is breaking down the fucking walls and breaking his ass out to freedom.

[MaNu4Tres]

Anyone that thinks this team has anything left to contend really needs to take their head out of the sand. If you want to keep the Big 3 for nostalgic reasons then that is fine. All three have put in the work to earn that right. But don't kid yourself into thinking they can be anything they have been in the past. Once glance at the talented, up and coming teams in the league right now should be enough to convince anyone with any sort of objectivity.

I lean more towards Bruno's approach than any other. I love the Big 3...but there is only one face of this franchise and that is Tim Duncan. He and he alone should be the only player that is worthy to be called untouchable through this process. If they are going to keep the Big 3 intact then I agree with the dump RJ crowd. If they are not then I like the patience approach better...as Manu and Parker will bring good picks and good young players. Those picks/players will have a couple of seasons to develop and then RJ's large expiring could be enticing to team looking for relief that is willing to give up a good player in order get it.

This.

[CGD]

On offense, the Spurs need to recommit themselves to the interior game, specifically the high-low game. Having a big that can space the floor doesn't mean the team MUST play with a 3pt shooting big. Two things I would do, even if it costs us some of our young pieces, are: (1) trade for a big with a decent post game (e.g., Brooke Lopez, Al Jefferson); and (2) have Tim focus on being a reliable top of the key shooter.

But our deficiencies in the interior are gravest on the defensive end. It's not that I dislike Bonner, but he isn't Bill Lambier, Robert Horry, or someone who is going to bring that toughness to our defense while hitting them from range. That combination is rare. Bonner battles his heart out, no doubt, but he doesn't have the talent to guard the likes of Z-Bo, the Gasols, Bynum, Perkins, Ibaka, Dirk, Chandler, etc. On balance, I'd take more attitude/an enforcer/an irritant on defense from that position (Fab 2.0), over a specific skill set on offense.

[gospursgojas]

I agree with most of what op TIMVP said... Spurs are not far off. They need to get defensive minded. Plug in players that will allow you to do that, and get rid of/bench players who dont i.e bonner.

For those of you who say its time to rebuild, what if these past 4 years were our rebuilding years for one last Tim Duncan run??? Pop experimented with Finley, Bogans, Bonner; he dropped defense for run and gun. None worked, now time to go back to basics for one last year.

[timvp]

MannyIsGod and Bruno, you both know I respect the hell out of your basketball takes but I think you are both massively overreacting to the current situation. Just as you both massively underreacted to the difficulty level of this series.


Top one Key - Spurs vs. Grizzlies 2011 Playoff Preview


1. Play at your level
Spurs are the way better team. It is en easy series that Spurs should win in 4 or 5 games.


Spurs have this series in 5 even if Manu never steps foot on the court. Its like Bruno says, they're simply the much better team. I don't give a shit that their records were identical, the Spurs have been coasting for months now.

I pointed out reasons why this was a difficult series but you both weren't havin' none of it. I don't think the Big 3 era is over ... and I'm guessing you both won't be havin' none of it either :lol

First of all, I don't know why Spurs fans are so much in a hurry to tear it down. There's going to be plenty of time to rebuilt once the Big 3 era is legitimately over. And really, it makes sense to try to win it all in the meantime with RJ's horrible contract still on the books. (And yeah, it's easy to say to get rid of RJ no matter what, don't bring him off the bench and make him someone else's problem ... but it takes two teams to trade and no one is going to touch RJ so we might as well face reality.)

Saying TD should retire is just mind-boggling to me. Sure, he's not the dominant Tim Duncan anymore. Sure, he's probably a 12 and 8 players the next couple of years. But he's still a quality, quality starter. Per minute, he can probably remain near a star level for one or two more seasons.

If he's tired and wants to spend more time with the family, I'll tip my hat and say goodbye. But to nudge him out is stupid. Seriously. He's still a good player. He has already shown he'll play a role instead of try to continue being the star of the team (something Hakeem, Ewing and MJ never could do). And the argument that he should retire to "preserve his legacy" is one of my biggest pet peeves in all of sports. There's absolutely no shame in fighting until the bitter end. Quit because some fickle fans will find it harder to remember the good times? That's always been an amazingly stupid argument by sports fans, IMO.

Those saying the Spurs should just blow it up don't really understand how hard it is to rebuild. You press the reset button now and there's a good chance that the Spurs don't become a true championship contender for decades. DECADES. Being in a small market that can't attract star talent means the Spurs would have to hope and pray to rebuild through the draft. And there have been teams waiting to rebuild through the draft for 20 to 30 years. I'd honestly say the chances are higher that the Spurs move from San Antonio before they are able to get lucky enough in the draft to get their next David Robinson or Tim Duncan. There are three or four such players per decade (at most). You really want to play that game of chance?

I mean, the logic is pretty simple to me. With the two choices being totally rebuild or try to get the pieces needed to surround the Old Big 3, the choice is damn easy. If you choose rebuild, you have to wait around to land the next superstar ... and then hope that you can surround that superstar with a couple other stars. And then get the role players to fit around the new core. Yeah, these Spurs were able to do it four times but that was with the amazing luck of getting Robinson and Duncan with number one picks and then getting lucky with TP and Manu. I don't even want to think about the odds of anything like that ever happening again to the Spurs franchise.

Instead of blowing everything up now, you stick to it. Hope against hope to add one superstar somehow or a couple of stars next to the Big 3 in the next few seasons. Could the Old Big 3 plus a couple of very good sidekicks win a championship? Could the Old Big 3 plus a superstar win a championship? I think there's a chance.

And that chance is much greater than the chance that pressing the reset button now will result in championship hopes any time soon.

[Axe Murderer]

The Spurs should just bring Ryan Richards along or just draft a big body that can bang with the Gasol/Bynums of the league. Even if he has no skill.

Aaron Gray is a 7 foot mongloid with no basketball skill whatsoever, but he still did a great job on Pau that series. Spurs need to get somebody like that desperately

[lmbebo]

I was thinking that part of the problem this past season was that we relied on an old McDyess to be our 2nd legit big towards the end of the season.

In the past, players like McDyess got sparing minuetes but played a big role as 3rd and 4th big. I think as the season wore on, we relied on him to be the 2nd legit big next to Duncan when Blair and Bonner could not. Splitter was never given a chance.

[Agloco]

Sorry man, but the Spurs simply don't have a franchise player anymore. They will probablly not start to rebuild until Tim and Manu's contracts are done but that doens't mean they shouldn't.

It was so brutal at times this series when it was obvious the Spurs didn't have a go to guy. They're not winning a ring in this NBA with Kobe, Durant, Rose, Lebron, etc without a similar player. Just the facts.


Zebo was a franchise player this series. Thats what the Spurs are missing.

Mr. Manny with the goods.

Reality has a way of kicking you in the nuts.

[TDMVPDPOY]

theres not many players out there atm you can really turn into a franchise player, look what happen to ariza when he sign with the rockets...


how old is granger btw? good volume scorer, but he fail in the bulls series, wouldnt mind him ina aspurs jersey first option on offense....

[Borosai]

MannyIsGod and Bruno, you both know I respect the hell out of your basketball takes but I think you are both massively overreacting to the current situation. Just as you both massively underreacted to the difficulty level of this series.





I pointed out reasons why this was a difficult series but you both weren't havin' none of it. I don't think the Big 3 era is over ... and I'm guessing you both won't be havin' none of it either :lol

First of all, I don't know why Spurs fans are so much in a hurry to tear it down. There's going to be plenty of time to rebuilt once the Big 3 era is legitimately over. And really, it makes sense to try to win it all in the meantime with RJ's horrible contract still on the books. (And yeah, it's easy to say to get rid of RJ no matter what, don't bring him off the bench and make him someone else's problem ... but it takes two teams to trade and no one is going to touch RJ so we might as well face reality.)

Saying TD should retire is just mind-boggling to me. Sure, he's not the dominant Tim Duncan anymore. Sure, he's probably a 12 and 8 players the next couple of years. But he's still a quality, quality starter. Per minute, he can probably remain near a star level for one or two more seasons.

If he's tired and wants to spend more time with the family, I'll tip my hat and say goodbye. But to nudge him out is stupid. Seriously. He's still a good player. He has already shown he'll play a role instead of try to continue being the star of the team (something Hakeem, Ewing and MJ never could do). And the argument that he should retire to "preserve his legacy" is one of my biggest pet peeves in all of sports. There's absolutely no shame in fighting until the bitter end. Quit because some fickle fans will find it harder to remember the good times? That's always been an amazingly stupid argument by sports fans, IMO.

Those saying the Spurs should just blow it up don't really understand how hard it is to rebuild. You press the reset button now and there's a good chance that the Spurs don't become a true championship contender for decades. DECADES. Being in a small market that can't attract star talent means the Spurs would have to hope and pray to rebuild through the draft. And there have been teams waiting to rebuild through the draft for 20 to 30 years. I'd honestly say the chances are higher that the Spurs move from San Antonio before they are able to get lucky enough in the draft to get their next David Robinson or Tim Duncan. There are three or four such players per decade (at most). You really want to play that game of chance?

I mean, the logic is pretty simple to me. With the two choices being totally rebuild or try to get the pieces needed to surround the Old Big 3, the choice is damn easy. If you choose rebuild, you have to wait around to land the next superstar ... and then hope that you can surround that superstar with a couple other stars. And then get the role players to fit around the new core. Yeah, these Spurs were able to do it four times but that was with the amazing luck of getting Robinson and Duncan with number one picks and then getting lucky with TP and Manu. I don't even want to think about the odds of anything like that ever happening again to the Spurs franchise.

Instead of blowing everything up now, you stick to it. Hope against hope to add one superstar somehow or a couple of stars next to the Big 3 in the next few seasons. Could the Old Big 3 plus a couple of very good sidekicks win a championship? Could the Old Big 3 plus a superstar win a championship? I think there's a chance.

And that chance is much greater than the chance that pressing the reset button now will result in championship hopes any time soon.

Is +1 still allowed?

+1

[Stump]

Most posters seem to have the mentality that a team should either be a contender or be in complete rebuilding mode. I don't get that. You guys underestimate just how important luck is for a small market team when trying to build a contender. Once the big 3 era ends, we could be bad for a long long time.

[Agloco]

Tank and go for the #1 overall pick.

Speaking of.....

Perhaps the Spurs should start thinking about acquiring a big like Gregory? Not much to lose at this point.

[TDMVPDPOY]

if the spurs can blow 10m a season a piece of cumstain, i see why not take the risk MLE on greg oden....

[Bruno]

MannyIsGod and Bruno, you both know I respect the hell out of your basketball takes but I think you are both massively overreacting to the current situation. Just as you both massively underreacted to the difficulty level of this series.

Both events are linked.

It's because Memphis are a bad team and Spurs haven't been able to beat them that Spurs should consider blowing it up.

I'm interested to see what Memphis will do in the rest of the playoffs. If they do well, it will mean that I've underestimate them. If they suck, it will show how far Spurs are from being a contender.



Saying TD should retire is just mind-boggling to me. Sure, he's not the dominant Tim Duncan anymore. Sure, he's probably a 12 and 8 players the next couple of years. But he's still a quality, quality starter. Per minute, he can probably remain near a star level for one or two more seasons.

Here is what I want Pop to say to Tim this offseason:
"First, whatever your choice is, wee will pay you the reminder of your contract ($21.2M).
We aren't in a situation were we can surround you with a team good enough to have a legit shot at winning a championship. You have three opitons:
- You continue to play with us and you will have seasons where at the best, you are going to reach the WCSF.
- You retire to enjoy your life outside the basket.
- We waive you and you can sign elsewhere to chase a ring."

It has nothing to do with "preserving his legacy". It is just being honest with him.



Those saying the Spurs should just blow it up don't really understand how hard it is to rebuild.

It is the exact opposite.

It's because that's so hard to rebuild that Spurs should try to get every single little edge.
Getting something for Parker and Ginobili instead of just letting them retire as a Spur will help a little the rebuilding process.
The soonest Spurs tank, the soonest they will get a superstar in the drafT. Who know, maybe the superstar will be in the 2012 draft...



Instead of blowing everything up now, you stick to it. Hope against hope to add one superstar somehow or a couple of stars next to the Big 3 in the next few seasons. Could the Old Big 3 plus a couple of very good sidekicks win a championship? Could the Old Big 3 plus a superstar win a championship? I think there's a chance.

And that chance is much greater than the chance that pressing the reset button now will result in championship hopes any time soon.

I don't think there is a chance for Spurs to get enough talent to win a championship around the Old big 3 with no interesting draft picks, no cap space and no great trade assets.

[baseline bum]

I see the Spurs as a 6-10 seed for the next 2-3 years if they don't blow it up. I just don't see any reason to bind the team into mediocrity with no upside. I'm not sure how they get a difference maker for now, as only Parker, Ginobili, and Duncan have trade value, and moving any of them would be waving the white flag anyways. Even if RC finds someone good at #30, you're still talking at least one full season and more than likely 2-3 before the pick can become a meaningful contributor. The only way you keep the team together is if you think one of Blair, Splitter, Hill, Anderson, or Neal are going to have a huge breakout season next year. I mean, something like 15 and 10 from one of the bigs or one of Hill, Anderson, Neal becomes a 6th Man of Year candidate. That's what it's going to take; the team is going to need someone to play as well as Jefferson did in November.

[mingus]

if Spurs do bring back the Big 3, which i suspect they will, they gotta find a way to shore up the defense and toughness. you're not going to bring in a go-to offensive player, but you can at least bring in quality FAs to help defensively.

some nice perimiter defenders:
1. Shane Battier
2. Michael Petrius
3. Grant Hill
4. Prince
5. DeShawn Stevenson
6. Anthony Parker

any one of those guys is going to have a huge impact defensively.

Spurs are going to have a hole w/ McDyess retired. obviously, Splitter gets his minutes.

defensively, a lineup of:

Parker
Ginobili
one of the listed perimiter defenders
Duncan
Splitter

is actually pretty good. the problem is they're still going to be bringing the turn towers off the bench.

they can shore up the big issue by signing one of these big FA:

Jarren Collins
Kenyon Martin
Samuel Dalembert
Fesenko

through the draft, you have to aim for defense from both the big and wing positions, obviously.

unfortunately, the Spurs are so fucked with RJ's contract that they have practically no wiggle room. signing any of the listed FAs is going to be tough, and because of that i see the Spurs bringing back the same team as last year with the same problems. :depressed

which is why i am for breaking up the big 3 to begin with. just get the rebuilding process started now. the team is first round fodder for the next 2 years.

[TDMVPDPOY]

no point being mediocre building in the draft with picks ranging from 16-20 :(

[angelbelow]

Five reasons why I disagree with timvp's retooling plan:

1. Duncan is done. Pop has been extra careful this season by limiting his minutes. He has only played 28mpg during the regular season. Despite that treatment, he hasn't been able to step up during the post season. And it's not like Gasol or Randolph are DPOY candidates. They wre just big bodies playing hard.

2. National teams. Unless a lockout change that, Parker and Ginobili will play this summer with their NT. Manu will be 34 and will be extra motivated with the competition being in Argentina. Parker has a lot of mileage and French NT summer will be one of the longest and more exhausting because FIBA has expanded the Eurobasket to more teams.

3. Pop is senile. Pop has been horrible this year. IMO, two quotes sum up well that. First, the "it isn't fair to the team" explanation given on why Splitter hasn't played more. Second, the "defense isn't the problem" comment made during the 6 games losing streak while the D was atrocious.

4. Spurs youth isn't that good. Blair and Hill have plateaued, Neal is a limited player, Anderson and Butler have had big injuries... There is nothing to gloat about Spurs young players. They could be fine as a supporting cast but expecting more from them is a reach.

5. Spurs FO won't be able to do a lot to improve the team this summer. On the paper, Spurs could package Dice partially guaranteed contract with draft pick(s) and young players like Blair or Hill. however, Spurs still have a shitload of money spend and I doubt the ownership will be fine with spending even more money for a first round exit team. For financial reasons, I also don't see Spurs their whole MLE this summer.


So my five step rebuilding plan:

1. Let Duncan retire. At this stage of his career, the best for him and for Spurs is likely a retirement. Gives him the $21.2M left on his contract and keep all the awesome memories he brought to Spurs.

2. Pop should retire. A lot of great old coaches have recently retire or will likely retire (Don Nelson, Jerry Sloan, Larry Brown, Par Ryley, Phil Jackson, Rick Adelman, Mike Dunleavy). It's time for Pop to follow them. Spurs should have a young coach to start their rebuilding process.

3. Trade Parker, Ginobili and Bonner for expiring, prospects and picks. Parker and Ginobili should fetch some interesting young players and draft picks. Bonner contract isn't bad so Spurs should be able to switch him with an expiring contract.

4. Be patient with RJ's contract. Spurs shouldn't be desperate for dumping RJ to the point of using assets just to get rid of him. You don't need cap space at a start of rebuilding process. Cap space is just needed at the end of it and RJ's contract could be off the book at that stage of the process. His trade value could also improve with Spurs rebuilding and him playing a bigger role. He was a good player before his stint here.

5. Draft is the key. Spurs will have a hard time doing like Miami and attract to tier free agents. In order to get great draft picks, Spurs will need to be really bad 2 or 3 years in a row. It will be painful for fans to follow that but it is a necessary evil.

Well.. i think Bruno pretty much summed up what were all thinking..

There is little chance our team improves by adding other players, whether thats thru free agency (we won't spend the MLE + we will have trouble attracting players with NY, NJ, Heat, and others in position to take off.)

[ManuTastic]

Folks, here's the facts: Tim Duncan averaged just under 13 ppg in this series. Despite his being so conserved over the course of the regular season, we did not see the Timmy of old emerge in the postseason, just old Timmy. And Timmy of old isn't walking through that door next season either. Just older Timmy. Ask yourself this: if Memphis could hold Timmy down with their big front line, what do you think LA would have done with their bigger, better front line? It pains me to say this, but Duncan is no longer the dominant all-star who used to raise his game in the playoffs. And if Tim is no longer that force in the middle, what exactly would we base any championship hopes on?

Manu is 33, and was hampered by injury this postseason. He was clearly gassed last night--understandable after his game 5 heroics, but still. Next year he'll be 34; does anyone on this board think he'll be healthier then? All season and postseason? The way he plays?
With this year's Tim and Manu both playing as best they could, we got beat by Memphis. A good eight-seed, but an eight-seed nonetheless. This is not the story of Bonner, or Pop, or Splitter, or even RJ. It's the story of a Big 3 who just aren't that big any more. Tim was the foundation of this franchise and those four championships, and he just can't carry that load any more. He always shared it, obviously, and got good help, but he was the rock. And now he's not.
That being said, I don't see the point in searching around for this or that role player to fill in around the edges. The center is gone, pardon the pun.

My rebuilding idea: Shut it down and get young. Let Timmy do anything he wants: play 20 min a game, retire with a buyout, go elsewhere, whatever he desires. He's earned it. Trade Manu to a contender, with his permission. Surely he'd want to do that. And not that I don't like Tony, but he's got the most trade value, so trade him--hopefully for a young stud and picks. Trade for as many picks as possible. Get a new coach, one who wants to build young players.
Time to start over.

[baseline bum]

Folks, here's the facts: Tim Duncan averaged just under 13 ppg in this series. Despite his being so conserved over the course of the regular season, we did not see the Timmy of old emerge in the postseason, just old Timmy. And Timmy of old isn't walking through that door next season either. Just older Timmy. Ask yourself this: if Memphis could hold Timmy down with their big front line, what do you think LA would have done with their bigger, better front line? It pains me to say this, but Duncan is no longer the dominant all-star who used to raise his game in the playoffs. And if Tim is no longer that force in the middle, what exactly would we base any championship hopes on?

Manu is 33, and was hampered by injury this postseason. He was clearly gassed last night--understandable after his game 5 heroics, but still. Next year he'll be 34; does anyone on this board think he'll be healthier then? All season and postseason? The way he plays?
With this year's Tim and Manu both playing as best they could, we got beat by Memphis. A good eight-seed, but an eight-seed nonetheless. This is not the story of Bonner, or Pop, or Splitter, or even RJ. It's the story of a Big 3 who just aren't that big any more. Tim was the foundation of this franchise and those four championships, and he just can't carry that load any more. He always shared it, obviously, and got good help, but he was the rock. And now he's not.
That being said, I don't see the point in searching around for this or that role player to fill in around the edges. The center is gone, pardon the pun.

My rebuilding idea: Shut it down and get young. Let Timmy do anything he wants: play 20 min a game, retire with a buyout, go elsewhere, whatever he desires. He's earned it. Trade Manu to a contender, with his permission. Surely he'd want to do that. And not that I don't like Tony, but he's got the most trade value, so trade him--hopefully for a young stud and picks. Trade for as many picks as possible. Get a new coach, one who wants to build young players.
Time to start over.

Just not picks this year, unless some team is out of its mind and trades the #1 pick for TP or Manu. Tank 2011-12 for one of the talented forwards in the 2012 draft and then tank 2012-13 for one of the good crop of centers who could be in the 2013 draft.

[Chomag]

Staying pat while just tweaking, and adding some players here in there hasn't worked for 4 years, I'm not sure how it would now with another year older core.

Spurs could just stay with it as suggested here, but I don't see how that would give them a realistic shot at the title. Should they keep beating the dead horse or start the rebuild now? If they wait to long the wont have anything of value to help speed the rebuilding possess along. Just look at the other teams that have waited to long for the rebuild, it takes a good 10 years if not longer to get a full working core again. I just don't think starting at the very bottom would be a very good idea.

Why not try to start the rebuilding now while they have some value to start immediately bringing in a new core. The Big 3 was one of the best in the NBA, but father of time can be a real bitch, ask Chicago, Boston, Houston, and even LA. All of those teams had their times of greatness but eventually had to rebuild.

Tweaking or re-tooling , or however you want to call it worked great in the past when Spurs had a good young core to work around but thats just not the case anymore.

[baseline bum]

I would see timvp's side more if the team made a decent playoff showing like last year vs Dallas or lost due to injuries like in 08 or 09, but they were pretty healthy this season and were clearly the inferior team vs a Grizzlies team whose ceiling is probably a second-round showing. Forget LA and OKC... would this team have beaten Portland? Aldridge has looked like an MVP against them this season. Would they have been able to match Denver's depth and size inside? Would they have stopped Dirk 2 years in a row? Is there a West playoff team other than New Orleans that you could look at and say "that team has no answer for the Spurs"?

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Anybody who thinks Duncan is done is a fucking retard. He just got done putting up 13 and 11 against a great defensive team with massive front line while his teammates failed to show up and his minutes were inexcplicably limited by his dumbass coach.

I agree with this entirely. I can't get over how many black named spurs fans are spewing this mouth diarrhea crap.

It's as if they seriously thought by keeping Duncan's minutes low in the regular season, when we upped his minutes a little in the playoffs he would revert to 2004 Duncan or something like magic.

That's so insanely far fetched I just can't understand it.
Duncan did everything to be expected out of him this series, but he (and the entire team!!!) fell victim to Memphis' bad ass defense. His passing was slow and he turned it over, but so did our starting guards.

Memphis shut the whole team down. Made the whole team look slow.

Spurfan needs to start crediting Memphis and stop assuming the only way Duncan gets outplayed is if he's finished.

It's 1+1 = 6 to these people.


If we had played a grind it out style and incorporated all the horses at our disposal this season, we could have beat Memphis.

But we were shown that our strategy was fools gold and one of our most valuable contributors hardly could contribute properly. Meanwhile we overplay someone who does the opposite of contribute.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

My plan going into the offseason is pretty vanilla and anti-BLOW UP

1) Beg Duncan to renegotiate for less money giving us flexibility. If he refuses, oh well, resign him after his current contract. Either way, getting rid of him until his wheels truly fall off is insulting, disgusting, and flat out stupid.

2) Keep Parker and Ginobili. Move Ginobili to bench status only and give him the horry treatment like no other.

3) See what we can get for Hill, Bonner (ha), Blair, RJ (ha). The actions dictated by this step depends on what we can get for them. I honestly think Blair and Hill have already reached their respective ceilings with the spurs. I also think Blair especially can become a more beastly version of himself if he's on the right team surrounded by a different style of teammates. Other GM's might be looking for someone exactly like him.

George Hill on the other hand, I believe should be moved in the course of the next season. His value will more than likely increase by giving him high-level minutes out the start of the season. Then try trade to him when his stock is high for a player at any position with SIZE.

4) Draft size. Screw looking for diamonds in the rough, draft anyone left with size, and keep the fingers crossed. Whatever draft spot we have. If we find another undersized diamond in the rough, it will not help this team. It. Will. Not. Also keep open the option of trading up in the draft to get a player we may be out of position to get, dangle Blair or Hill if necessary.

5) Sign any available free agent wing player that gives his entire heart and soul to play defense. Anyone. Just as long as they are not (1) old 33+ and (2) under-fucking-sized. I don't care if they averaged 2 minutes a game for the Bobcats. Sign a player of at least average size that plays relentless defense, regardless of what offensive capabilities he has.


In summary, I'd like to see us retain the big 3, and draft/sign ONLY players with average to above average size. No more old signees. No more undersized signees. I could give a fuck if they shoot 50% threes for their career. I could care less if they can't even dribble. That is what I would like to see. Size.

[mingus]

I would see timvp's side more if the team made a decent playoff showing like last year vs Dallas or lost due to injuries like in 08 or 09, but they were pretty healthy this season and were clearly the inferior team vs a Grizzlies team whose ceiling is probably a second-round showing. Forget LA and OKC... would this team have beaten Portland? Aldridge has looked like an MVP against them this season. Would they have been able to match Denver's depth and size inside? Would they have stopped Dirk 2 years in a row? Is there a West playoff team other than New Orleans that you could look at and say "that team has no answer for the Spurs"?

Darko f'n Millici looked like Wilt Chamberlain agains this team. :rollin

[ShoogarBear]

Before offering rebuilding suggestions, you first need to decide what the goal is.

If the goal is to just have a team making the playoffs for the next couple of years, then there are lots of ways to do that either keeping the big 3 or breaking them up.

If the goal is to get Duncan one more ring, then NOTHING matters until Pop decides it's time to get back to size and defense.

[boutons_deux]

Pop has must again insist "play defense or sit"

[Hoops Czar]

If the goal is to get Duncan one more ring, then NOTHING matters until Pop decides it's time to get back to size and defense.

With no money to spend, that is an impossibility. You have to package size with talent. You can't throw out garbage bigs and expect the Spurs to contend. RJ f*cked this team in more ways than one. Not only has his game wasted away, but that contract will prevent the Spurs from improving the team. Its also made the FO gun shy of making anymore moves that could drastically alter the team's structure for fear it wouldn't work. I said it was a bad trade then but I was dead wrong, it was catastrophic.

[objective]

if Spurs do bring back the Big 3, which i suspect they will, they gotta find a way to shore up the defense and toughness. you're not going to bring in a go-to offensive player, but you can at least bring in quality FAs to help defensively.

some nice perimiter defenders:
1. Shane Battier
2. Michael Petrius
3. Grant Hill
4. Prince
5. DeShawn Stevenson
6. Anthony Parker


I think Pietrus might be a realistic option. Him and McDyess can be traded one for one, and PHX could then save money on cutting McDyess for the partial guarantee while getting rid of one of their many wing players.

[rick1991]

If Dwight Howard does not accept the Magic's contract extension should we take him for one year then he can leave if he wants but we can at least try to win one last championship?

Magic get:
-Richard Jefferson
-George Hill
-Dejuan Blair
-Tiago Splitter

Spurs get:
-Dwight Howard

Works on ESPN trade machine

[objective]

re: the Spurs being contenders

I'm fine with a farewell tour, but people thinking the Spurs could be contenders are fooling themselves. Are the other teams going to get worse now? Is Memphis going to get worse? Is OKC going to get worse? Are the Lakers going to get much worse? Is Dallas going to get much worse? Is Portland going to get worse? How are the Spurs supposed to get better?

But moreover, this team won't win with Pop anymore. Because Pop will not change. He had all season to get Splitter ready. All damn season, especially after seeing how disastrously inadequate the non-Duncan bigs were last postseason. He already should have learned the lesson from George Hill's rookie year. But NO. He kept up his dementia with nonsense like, "It wouldn't be fair to the team".

That isn't changing. Pretend all you want that some superstar is going to dropped into the Spurs hands by Lady Luck. Even if that happened, even if the 1st rounder this year is a ready-to-go difference maker, even if Ryan Richards blows up the world as a Blake-Griffin-meets-Dirk hybrid, even if James Anderson becomes talked about like he was the next Danny Granger, even if Nando De Colo/Viktor Sanikidze/Dashaun Butler/Danny Green/2nd Rounder/Anyone becomes the lynchpin . . .

Pop will screw it up.

It's as simple as that. And I love Pop. Love him like a family member. Hell, love him more than most of my family members. And most Spurs fans do.

But the truth is there and it hurts. Pop won't get it right. He'll bumble it up and get stubborn and ornery about it. It'll be smallball. It'll be benching and then hating Bowen. It'll be never giving chances to young players while garbage vets get time. It'll be benching Hill and Splitter. It'll be falling in love with players who hurt the Spurs like Finley and Bonner and Jefferson. AND the defense . . . it's never coming back like the old days. Pop will never have the best team on paper any more. He never won a lot of series as the underdog in the past, and that's what the Spurs will continue to be in the playoffs in the west: underdogs.

Even if you can convince yourself that Tim Duncan is still going to be a star next year when he's even older . . . Pop won't give him the help he needs. Sure, he could play Splitter a lot next year, but he'll find some other way to undercut the playoff potential of the Spurs.

[Lars]

Rebuild.....

Anything you add to make the team better will be countered by the worse and worse production from Manu/Duncan as they get older.

Trade them while they have value and jump start a rebuild.

[ElNono]

:pop: "You are all delusional. We're fine. We just were unlucky with the timing on the injuries and we lost our mojo for the stretch run because of them. We just need to get a little luckier next season with the injury bug, Splitter going through training camp, and Dice not retiring."

[timvp]

Both events are linked.

It's because Memphis are a bad team:depressedAnyone who watched the series knows Memphis isn't a bad team.

Sub par take :td


Here is what I want Pop to say to Tim this offseason:
"First, whatever your choice is, wee will pay you the reminder of your contract ($21.2M).
We aren't in a situation were we can surround you with a team good enough to have a legit shot at winning a championship. You have three opitons:
- You continue to play with us and you will have seasons where at the best, you are going to reach the WCSF.
- You retire to enjoy your life outside the basket.
- We waive you and you can sign elsewhere to chase a ring."

I'm most concerned about the Spurs winning another championship. And by far the option that makes the most sense is to keep Duncan around. He's not a top five player anymore but he's still easily a championship caliber starter.

There's no way you go to him with the defeatist attitude of telling him the best the Spurs can do now is make it to the second round. That makes no sense.



It is the exact opposite.

It's because that's so hard to rebuild that Spurs should try to get every single little edge.
Getting something for Parker and Ginobili instead of just letting them retire as a Spur will help a little the rebuilding process.
The soonest Spurs tank, the soonest they will get a superstar in the drafT. Who know, maybe the superstar will be in the 2012 draft...


1. The only team that would want TP or Manu would be contenders. The most contenders can give you are weak draft picks and mediocre talent.

2. Say you trade TP and Manu, that would actually hurt you in terms of tanking. Whatever players you'd get back would make the Spurs too good to properly tank.

3. In the big picture of rebuilding a championship contender, whatever scraps the Spurs can get for TP and Manu are worthless. You need to land that Top 50 Player of All-Time first and then build around that. There's no other avenue of doing it once one era has reached the end.

[kaji157]

Our give 3 gave me a lot of happines, i don't mind sucking for 3 years if they want to retire Spurs, i would just love to cheer for them and let them enjoy the chemistry they have with the fans. They deserve it.
If we can surround them with better players than them so that Ginobili and Duncan can ; take a serious backseat, so be it, but if we can't i understand it perfectly.

Of course will be nice to see two of the Anderson, Blair, Hill and Neal emerge as a legit 2nd and 3rd best player on the team (considering next year team will be "Parker oriented)
but i doubt that happen.

We are off for two farewell seasons, Timmy's last and Manu's last, and then a couple of rebuilding seasons, but the Big 3 did put the franchise in position to a good rebuilding, we have now around the NBA the complexion of a well runned and winner franchise, and winners do choose money, but they also choose the winner mentality this core has brought to San Antonio.

[Chomag]

Then do you guys really want to see the Big 3 struggle for the next few seasons? I think some might be still looking at the big 3 like they are not aging

[kaji157]

Then do you guys really want to see the Big 3 struggle for the next few seasons?

I wouldn't welcome it, but it wouldn't shock me. Players get old. You can't avoid that.
Sure we could be the Lakers and put around Duncan 4 allstars, but we don't get to spend 90 millons a season.
Neither i am sure if that is what i really like.
If we can somehow manage to surround them with a competitive cast, obviously that would be better, but if the management fails, i understand it, it's not easy to sign good players with no money and no draft picks. We passed on Scola, we missed on Jefferson, that's it, shit happens. We got Ginobili and Parker out of thin air.
Do you expect us to trade Jefferson horrific deal for David Lee and youngsters? we are not the Lakers, that won't happen.

The other thing to do i to assume that the best movement to look to win soon (not now, but soon) will be to trade Ginobili and Duncan (and Parker if a good deal comes) for picks and young players, Duncan and Ginobili, particulary, because of their level and shorter contracs might have good value, but still i am not sure if i want them defending other franchises, and i sure wouldnt agree on trading either of them to a rebuilding team looking to sheed salary. If i do have to see any of the big 3 on another team i at leas would like to send them to a team where they can attempt to win.

[timvp]

The only way you keep the team together is if you think one of Blair, Splitter, Hill, Anderson, or Neal are going to have a huge breakout season next year. I mean, something like 15 and 10 from one of the bigs or one of Hill, Anderson, Neal becomes a 6th Man of Year candidate. That's what it's going to take; the team is going to need someone to play as well as Jefferson did in November.

Exactly. You made my point for me.

What sounds more likely:

1. Splitter turns into a 12-points, 10-rebound defensive force. Neal or Hill take the next step to be either a legit starting shooting guard or a 6MOY candidate. Another two or three horses can be located that can carry the slack. The Old Big 3 can peak in the playoffs. The Spurs make one last surprising run with a team that depends on six or seven players rather than three.

2. You blow it up. You tank for however long it takes to get a No. 1 pick in a year when a sure-fire Hall of Famer is eligible for the draft. After you do that, you go out and somehow get two more All-Star level talents. Once you have that team set, you go get the right role players.

The first option is a long shot. I'm the first one to admit that. But there is a shot there. I don't know how but then again, it's not like we knew how the Spurs were going to survive the decline of Robinson. Nobody saw how the Spurs were going to get one of the best backcourts of all-time with a late first rounder and a late second rounder. Lighting might strike for the fourth time.

The second option, although it seems somewhat plausible on paper, is much more of a long shot. And it could take ten years. It could take 100 years. It may never happen. And really, nothing you do now will speed up the process. It's a matter of getting lucky and then making the right moves afterwards.

IMO, the options aren't even close. The chances are 1000% greater to stumble upon a strong enough supporting cast for the Old Big 3 than it is to start over and have a championship contender within the next two decades.

[objective]

Then do you guys really want to see the Big 3 struggle for the next few seasons?

I could go either way.

I'd be perfectly happy watching a 2 or maybe even 3 year farewell tour as long as trash like Jefferson and Bonner are kept out of uniform. BUT I'm not delusional enough to think the Spurs would be contenders. Others are losing their objectivity and talking themselves into it when they should know better. This isn't a situation where the Spurs can 're-load', they can just 're-tread'.

I still enjoy watching Manu in the regular season, plus TD and Parker. But having to see Jefferson and Bonner crap all over the Spurs franchise and fans with their wretchedness drains the fun out of it. I already declared last summer, and have held to it, that I wouldn't spend a dime on the Spurs as long as Bonner was on the team. I'll be very happy when I get to spend money on the Spurs again.

BUT

I'd also be fine with a harsh re-build. I've enjoyed the hell out of the Duncan era, I don't need a lost-cause set of lost-seasons. Getting the brunt of the hurt and bitterness out of the way during the lockout year, when a shortened season will already have burned out many casual fans, doesn't sound so bad.

[Nathan89]

Splitter is definitely capable of 12pts and 10rebs. I can see Gary Neal being a Jamal Crawford type 6th man.

We still need move Rj,Bonner,and Blair. Fill the starting SF and backup PF/C positions.

[timvp]

I would see timvp's side more if the team made a decent playoff showing like last year vs Dallas or lost due to injuries like in 08 or 09, but they were pretty healthy this season and were clearly the inferior team vs a Grizzlies team whose ceiling is probably a second-round showing. Forget LA and OKC... would this team have beaten Portland? Aldridge has looked like an MVP against them this season. Would they have been able to match Denver's depth and size inside? Would they have stopped Dirk 2 years in a row? Is there a West playoff team other than New Orleans that you could look at and say "that team has no answer for the Spurs"?

I mean, it's not a bad point, but the future is what is important now. Yeah, this year's team peaked at the wrong time and its strategy was flawed from the beginning.

But let's say Splitter erupts, Hill, Blair and/or Neal take the next step, and a couple more quality role players can be found, what team's would be unbeatable next year for the Spurs ... even with the Old Big 3 one year older?

I'd say probably the Lakers ... then again, without Phil Jackson and an older Kobe ... who knows?

I absolutely see no reason to blow up a team that has the ability to be a top three team in the conference. Yeah, the Spurs will need to be fortunate for that to happen ... but not nearly anywhere as fortunate as they'd need to be to become a legit championship contender within the next few decades in a total rebuild scenario.

[Chomag]

I could go either way.

I'd be perfectly happy watching a 2 or maybe even 3 year farewell tour as long as trash like Jefferson and Bonner are kept out of uniform. BUT I'm not delusional enough to think the Spurs would be contenders. Others are losing their objectivity and talking themselves into it when they should know better. This isn't a situation where the Spurs can 're-load', they can just 're-tread'.

I still enjoy watching Manu in the regular season, plus TD and Parker. But having to see Jefferson and Bonner crap all over the Spurs franchise and fans with their wretchedness drains the fun out of it. I already declared last summer, and have held to it, that I wouldn't spend a dime on the Spurs as long as Bonner was on the team. I'll be very happy when I get to spend money on the Spurs again.

BUT

I'd also be fine with a harsh re-build. I've enjoyed the hell out of the Duncan era, I don't need a lost-cause set of lost-seasons. Getting the brunt of the hurt and bitterness out of the way during the lockout year, when a shortened season will already have burned out many casual fans, doesn't sound so bad.

I totally agree with you that Bonner and RJ don't deserve to play on the same court that the Big 3 does.

[Ross Parrot]

So we're all agreeing that Bonner and Jefferson should be out of the team? Finally!

[Obstructed_View]

It's funny that Spurs fans that like to talk about how "spoiled" other Spurs fans are because of the team's success, but then turn around 180 degrees after a humiliating loss and think that the Spurs can just be down a few seasons and suddenly get another hall of fame player in the draft thanks to ping pong balls. There have been five sure-fire hall of fame number one picks since 1984. The Spurs have gotten two of them.

[Bruno]

Anyone who watched the series knows Memphis isn't a bad team.

Sub par take :td

Have you really found that the Spurs/Grizzlies series was played at a high level? I haven't.



There's no way you go to him with the defeatist attitude of telling him the best the Spurs can do now is make it to the second round. That makes no sense.

So it makes no sense to tell the truth.

The key of our disagreement is that we have a different evaluation of Spurs. I think that they are very far of being a legit contender and that it will be worst and worst with time. Even if some players have breakout years and the big old 3 stay healthy, I don't think Spurs will be close of winning the championship.

We can argue during pages about that but, at the end, we just have a different evaluation of Spurs.




1. The only team that would want TP or Manu would be contenders. The most contenders can give you are weak draft picks and mediocre talent.

2. Say you trade TP and Manu, that would actually hurt you in terms of tanking. Whatever players you'd get back would make the Spurs too good to properly tank.

3. In the big picture of rebuilding a championship contender, whatever scraps the Spurs can get for TP and Manu are worthless. You need to land that Top 50 Player of All-Time first and then build around that. There's no other avenue of doing it once one era has reached the end.

You likely won't get a superstar by trading Parker and/or Ginobili but you can get a solid 3rd or 4th option. The superstar will be had through tanking and a top5 pick.

[DMC]

this team is a perimeter defender away from being a legit contender. Who knows what JA/Green/Butler can bring next year...but that's a good crop of young talent who can defend.

If you're RC, you're calling Kahn in Minnesota every day til training camp and try and convince him that RJ still has shit left in the tank. He's dumb enough to believe him.

This team is absolutely done for 8-10 years when Timmy hangs them up. I'm not sure why so many people are anxious to see him retire now and trade TP so that number can be reduced to 7-9 years.

Til the wheels fall off. The Big 3 aren't going to quit. So don't fucking quit on them.
Of course they aren't going to quit. They are playing basketball for millions of dollars. Who would quit besides Sprewell?

The organization has to pick a path, either restructure and rebuild, saving salary space for opportunities or go for another year pretty much resigned to the 10 or 15 percent chance that matchups will favor us in the playoffs.

[Obstructed_View]

Bruno, you need to step away from the computer while you're mourning this loss. You're not thinking clearly at all. They were a legit contender a week ago and suddenly the best way to ever have a sniff is to get rid of Parker, Manu and Duncan and spend several YEARS hoping for a lottery pick? In a month you're going to cringe when you read this stuff that you're writing.

[TD 21]

First off, I wouldn't re-build, so much as I'd reload. They may only have one more season with Duncan and they probably won't have more than two (which is also, coincidentally, when Ginobili's contract ends). They can re-build then. I understand that it's unlikely they win another championship with this core, but it's San Antonio. They're not getting another Duncan and they're not getting another core like this. They'll be plenty of time to re-build when they're gone. But until they are, I'd continue to pursue a fifth championship.

1. I think this will happen anyway, but I'll still say it: Start Splitter. He needs to add about ten pounds of muscle (not too much, otherwise he'd risk compromising his mobility) and a semi-reliable short to mid range jump shot/free throw. Aside from that, he's an ideal complement to Duncan, because he, like Duncan, is truly a four and a half. That's what Duncan needs at this stage of his career. A true center doesn't work, because Duncan shouldn't have to guard mobile, face up fours. A true power forward doesn't work, because Duncan shouldn't have to guard traditional, back to the basket fives. Duncan is essentially without a position defensively. He needs to defend the four or the five depending on match-up. Splitter is capable of allowing him to do that.

2. Try as hard as possible to trade Jefferson and Bonner. They're mentally and physically weak and flat out are not championship caliber role players. In the Kaman thread, I've already detailed how I'd go about attempting to trade Jefferson. As for Bonner, I'd offer him to the Jazz, along with McDyess' partially guaranteed contract, for Okur. I'd only do this if the Spurs, after doing their due diligence, are confident in Okur health wise. He's got one season on his contract and is essentially a bigger version of Bonner. At 6-11, 265, he'd give the Spurs the heft they need in the middle (I'd prefer even bigger, but that's difficult to find, particularly when you're talking quality), with the ability to stretch the floor. He's not as good a shooter as Bonner, but he's still very good for a big man and unlike Bonner, his percentage doesn't fall off dramatically in the playoffs. He'd also be a nice fit next to Blair off the bench, allowing Blair to play PF. And against the bigger front lines, he could play some next to Duncan.

Why would the Jazz do it? With the Jefferson and Favors acquisitions, plus the Williams trade and Sloan's retirement, they're obviously in a re-build. Plus, they have three bigs (Millsap, being the third) they're committed to going forward, which leaves little room for Okur, who turns 32 this year. It's probably not likely he re-signs anyway. This trade gives them a lesser replacement to fill the same role, in Bonner, plus financial relief in the form of McDyess' partially guaranteed contract.

I don't see Kaman as as good a fit, but he's younger and when healthy, better. If there's a trade to be made, I'd at the very least strongly consider it. I've detailed why in the Kaman thread.

3. I'd heavily pursue Chandler (Wilson, that is). I'd offer Anderson and the 1st for his rights.

He'd give the Spurs the type of dynamic athlete they need at SF. He's 23, has excellent size for a three, can play small ball four, is an improving shooter, can be a very good defender and, as an added bonus, is an excellent shot blocker for a wing.

Why would the Nuggets do it? Word is he's not happy their. With Gallinari entrenched as the SF of the present and future and Afflalo as the SG of the present and future, he has no chance to start. Even with an opening at PF, both he and Gallinari are incapable of playing their full time, unless the Nuggets think they're going to turn Chandler into Marion/Wallace lite. So why, when you have two starting wings, commit a decent salary to a third? And why would he, a starting caliber player, want to settle for a somewhat limited role? In Anderson, the Nuggets get an inexpensive, ideal third wing type, who can shoot/score. He'd be a nice fit. The 1st, while 29th in a weak draft, gives them an additional asset.

If this fails, then I'd sign Battier. I've detailed why in the Kaman thread.

4. Sign a fifth big and a third point. As far as the big, I'd look for a big, physical post defender. Foster, Mohammed, Pryzbilla, Collins (Jason) and Dampier, are possibilities. Bottom of the barrel types include Magloire, Gadzuric, Mbenga and Collins (Jarron). I'd sign Richards.

Third point, I'd prefer a true point, but their aren't many that fit that mold that are even semi desirable options. Arroyo, Temple, Lucas, Pargo, Uzoh, Banks, Ivey, Quinn and Jerrells, are possibilities. I'd prefer to do better than this.

Mills is someone I'd pursue. If they don't cut him lose, I'd either sign him to a modest offer sheet or offer them the 2nd/De Colo's rights. Short of that, hopefully they can get someone halfway intriguing with their 2nd round pick.

I'm fine with Green/Butler as the backup SF. It's unlikely either would be in the rotation anyway, so barring injury, we're talking spot minutes. I'm also not adverse to bringing Hairston back or considering other options of a similar ilk.

5. I don't really have a five and the first four are long enough. So I'll just close by laying out my ideal roster . . .

Starters: PF- Duncan, SF- Chandler, C- Splitter, SG- Ginobili, PG- Parker

Bench: PG/SG- Hill, PF/C- Blair, SG- Neal, C/PF- Okur, SF/SG- Green, C- Foster, PG- Mills

Inactive/D-League: SF/PF- Butler, PF/C- Richards

[objective]

2. Try as hard as possible to trade Jefferson and Bonner. They're mentally and physically weak and flat out are not championship caliber role players. In the Kaman thread, I've already detailed how I'd go about attempting to trade Jefferson. As for Bonner, I'd offer him to the Jazz, along with McDyess' partially guaranteed contract, for Okur.

The Okur deal might actually work if the Spurs finances don't get in the way.

Get an expiring to get out from Bonner's trash? DONE DEAL for me. I don't even care if Okur ever plays again. Just as long as Bonner is gone. Plus Utah gets to save money in a big way the first year . . . good deal all around.

[wildbill2u]

Easy for posters to say trade our bad player for your good player-- will not happen in the real world.

Jefferson-untradeable because of his poor showing and his long contract.

Blair--who wants a 6'5" center that his coach gave a shot but gave up on when it counted. He simply doesn't have enough skills and physical ability to be coveted.

Bonner: Bad shooting in playoffs for two years doesn't give anyone a thrill when they contemplate him on their team. And then they look at his defensive ability and pass.

Hill: passive kinda guy who can play a little when he lets go. Not a bad second banana--but won't get you a star in return when packaged with any one of the threee guys above.

Neal and Splitter should be untouchable since they are the only youthful future with upside.

Anderson and the rest of the spear carriers on the bench are complete unknowns other than they didn't stand out enough to get any serious minutes.

The FO is faced with a real shitty job with no real assets and no high draft choices.

[Hoops Czar]

Easy for posters to say trade our bad player for your good player-- will not happen in the real world.

Jefferson-untradeable because of his poor showing and his long contract.

Blair--who wants a 6'5" center that his coach gave a shot but gave up on when it counted. He simply doesn't have enough skills and physical ability to be coveted.

Bonner: Bad shooting in playoffs for two years doesn't give anyone a thrill when they contemplate him on their team. And then they look at his defensive ability and pass.

Hill: passive kinda guy who can play a little when he lets go. Not a bad second banana--but won't get you a star in return when packaged with any one of the threee guys above.

Neal and Splitter should be untouchable since they are the only youthful future with upside.

Anderson and the rest of the spear carriers on the bench are complete unknowns other than they didn't stand out enough to get any serious minutes.

The FO is faced with a real shitty job with no real assets and no high draft choices.


Both Hill and Blair are trade-able assets. Combining those two in a trade could net a solid return.

[Obstructed_View]

Anderson was fine when he was healthy. He got hurt and nobody ever thought it was important to give him any minutes. Might have been nice to have him available when RJ went tits up. Actually, it's entirely possible that RJ's performance was directly related to the amount of pressure put on him by Ja.

[Bruno]

Bruno, you need to step away from the computer while you're mourning this loss. You're not thinking clearly at all. They were a legit contender a week ago and suddenly the best way to ever have a sniff is to get rid of Parker, Manu and Duncan and spend several YEARS hoping for a lottery pick? In a month you're going to cringe when you read this stuff that you're writing.

They weren't a legit contender in my book a week ago. Even before the 6 games losing streak, I put Lakers way above them. So, no, it's not a knee jerk reaction. I've been low on Spurs the whole year. It's sure that I'm even lower on them after the loss against Grizzlies. I also think that it will be getting worse and worse with time because Spurs youth won't be enough to offset the aging of some players.

[objective]

I mean, it's not a bad point, but the future is what is important now. Yeah, this year's team peaked at the wrong time and its strategy was flawed from the beginning.

But let's say Splitter erupts, Hill, Blair and/or Neal take the next step, and a couple more quality role players can be found, what team's would be unbeatable next year for the Spurs ... even with the Old Big 3 one year older?

I'd say probably the Lakers ... then again, without Phil Jackson and an older Kobe ... who knows?

I absolutely see no reason to blow up a team that has the ability to be a top three team in the conference. Yeah, the Spurs will need to be fortunate for that to happen ... but not nearly anywhere as fortunate as they'd need to be to become a legit championship contender within the next few decades in a total rebuild scenario.

I'm with you if you want to see the band back together just for the reunion tour.

But they're not making any more hits. I'm afraid you're just talking yourself into it like you talked yourself into believing that Splitter shouldn't play (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5154516&postcount=1). That's okay, it's just natural.

It's like wanting to see The Who in concert. You think, wow, The Who were awesome! But you forget that Daltry's lost his voice, Townsend is old and deaf, and the other two guys are corpses. The Who aren't The Who anymore. They can put on a show, bring back memories of better times and fill you with nostalgia. But that's it.

Except that unlike the Spurs in San Antonio, The Who can probably sell out their shows. :depressed

[objective]

They weren't a legit contender in my book a week ago. Even before the 6 games losing streak, I put Lakers way above them. So, no, it's not a knee jerk reaction. I've been low on Spurs the whole year. It's sure that I'm even lower on them after the loss against Grizzlies. I also think that it will be getting worse and worse with time because Spurs youth won't be enough to offset the aging of some players.

I'm with Bruno here, others like myself were posting that the Spurs were frauds for awhile now.

Manu and Parker after an offseason of international play means they likely won't be any more healthy in the next playoffs. Duncan's age means that those injuries like ankle tweaks and sprains aren't going away.

And OKC is still so young. And good. With no worries yet about losing players to free agency.

And that's just OKC. Hell, Memphis now will have at least 5 home games of playoff revenue this year, that might be enough to keep Gasol. They're not going to fall off due to age.

Up and down the West it's just going to get harder for the Spurs. And that's just the west.

Pop is supposed to suddenly come to his senses and not pull his bullcrap like "It's not fair to the team/These playoffs aren't for him" and get back to defense and toughness?

[Josepatches_]

They weren't a legit contender in my book a week ago. Even before the 6 games losing streak, I put Lakers way above them. So, no, it's not a knee jerk reaction. I've been low on Spurs the whole year. It's sure that I'm even lower on them after the loss against Grizzlies. I also think that it will be getting worse and worse with time because Spurs youth won't be enough to offset the aging of some players.


This.And it's better to accept it.We are not going to win more championships with the actual core of the team.

It was a big surprise the regular season but finally they did what I expected in November.

[rascal]

I mean, it's not a bad point, but the future is what is important now. Yeah, this year's team peaked at the wrong time and its strategy was flawed from the beginning.

But let's say Splitter erupts, Hill, Blair and/or Neal take the next step, and a couple more quality role players can be found, what team's would be unbeatable next year for the Spurs ... even with the Old Big 3 one year older?

I'd say probably the Lakers ... then again, without Phil Jackson and an older Kobe ... who knows?

I absolutely see no reason to blow up a team that has the ability to be a top three team in the conference. Yeah, the Spurs will need to be fortunate for that to happen ... but not nearly anywhere as fortunate as they'd need to be to become a legit championship contender within the next few decades in a total rebuild scenario.

The problem is getting those role players that will put the Spurs over the top.
The Spurs have tried that route the last four years and haven't even been able to get a legit starting big.

The big 3 can't carry the load anymore like the past so the role players have to be better than what they had in the past. Where are these very good role players going to come from if you don't want to move any of the better core players on the team?

[Chomag]

And OKC is still so young. And good. With no worries yet about losing players to free agency.

And that's just OKC. Hell, Memphis now will have at least 5 home games of playoff revenue this year, that might be enough to keep Gasol. They're not going to fall off due to age

Throw in Chicago and the Heat into that mix. Maybe not this season but the next I think this is the turning point in the NBA for awhile. These top tier young teams are going to be the ones battling it out for a few seasons to come, at least untill the older teams like Boston, Spurs, and LA can rebuild with new cores and get back in the mix.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Anderson was fine when he was healthy. He got hurt and nobody ever thought it was important to give him any minutes. Might have been nice to have him available when RJ went tits up. Actually, it's entirely possible that RJ's performance was directly related to the amount of pressure put on him by Ja.

If he stays healthy and his stamina problems were rectifiable, I have no doubt that given the minutes Anderson will take RJ's starting job from him.

The inherent problem with that is that IMO he is undersized for today's NBA Small Forward. That leads me to say that if Ginobili returns to the bench, we can possibly see Anderson take the starting SG spot. Making George Hill even more expendable.

Anderson is going to be very solid for us if he can stay healthy.

[baseline bum]

Man, I hate being on the same side as rascal; he fucking hates the Spurs.

[ElNono]

And OKC is still so young. And good. With no worries yet about losing players to free agency.

And that's just OKC. Hell, Memphis now will have at least 5 home games of playoff revenue this year, that might be enough to keep Gasol. They're not going to fall off due to age.


Throw in Chicago and the Heat into that mix. Maybe not this season but the next I think this is the turning point in the NBA for awhile. These top tier young teams are going to be the ones battling it out for a few seasons to come, at least untill the older teams like Boston, Spurs, and LA can rebuild with new cores and get back in the mix.

With that in mind, I wouldn't be opposed to the farewell tour, seeing that unless you get absolutely incredibly lucky in the draft and manage to draft a top 50 all time player, you probably won't be contending anyways.

[Spur-Addict]

In reference to Neal, Splitter and Blair.

Pop: "We look forward to having all those guys back and putting it together again "

In reference to Memphis exposing us, pointing to a need.

Pop: "Their defense was excellent....To some degree that was size and strength. They man handled us in some situations....Size was definetly a factor"

In Reference to Changes.

Pop: "There are always going to be some changes. We never get drastic in that sense. Someone asked, 'we lost, are we going to blow it up?' You know, that's the most preposterous attitude to have right after you lose. Because, twenty nine teams lose. McDyess is the one guy who is probably leaning towards retirement"

In reference to Tim being back regardless of lockout

Pop: "I don't see why he wouldn't"
________________________

So, in what I take from this for the purpose of this thread is that there will most likely not be any changes in regards to the Big 3. I think Pop wants to change the suppporting cast a bit in light of what has happened this series.

Aside from the Big 3, I don't think Tiago or Neal is going anywhere. Anderson would be traded only in a absolutely must trade situation. He has played well earlier this season. Additionally, he defends well, has the size to rebound and stretches the court. The only players I see on the block are Blair, Hill, Bonner and Jefferson. Although Pop said he wants Blair back, Tiago played so well that it wouldn't be a stretch to say that their could be a trade he's involved in. But, to be honest, I don't see many changes coming.


As far as the draft goes, who knows what will be there when our pick arrives. It's a roll of the Dice.

As many others have said, Jeff is likely stuck here. Maybe Pop can help him develop a backbone like he helped him develop his ability to shoot in our system. But, unlikely. He's a waste of money.

So we're really looking at Free Agency, the draft, and maybe some sort of trade that will not move Jefferson or much else. We will most likely have two (or three if Dice retires) new players on the roster. One (or two) bigs, and one wing. They will be "defensive minded" etc. Hopefully a miraculous trade occurs, but don't get your hopes up.

[baseline bum]

Well, I'm not going to complain too much because I still love seeing Tim, Tony, and Manu in Spurs jerseys and Pop on the sidelines, even if he does some things that baffle me. The team being competitive in the next 3 years is a monster long-shot though. I really hope Splitter, Anderson, Blair, Hill, and Neal blow up though, because there aren't too many other options for this team to get any better. Jefferson is a total write-off, but I want to see him back because the Spurs can't afford to give up a good player to salary dump his sorry ass. Hopefully the Spurs can dump Bonner for an unguaranteed second round pick or something.

[Obstructed_View]

Well, I'm not going to complain too much because I still love seeing Tim, Tony, and Manu in Spurs jerseys and Pop on the sidelines, even if he does some things that baffle me. The team being competitive in the next 3 years is a monster long-shot though. I really hope Splitter, Anderson, Blair, Hill, and Neal blow up though, because there aren't too many other options for this team to get any better. Jefferson is a total write-off, but I want to see him back because the Spurs can't afford to give up a good player to salary dump his sorry ass. Hopefully the Spurs can dump Bonner for an unguaranteed second round pick or something.

Anderson, Green and Butler are going to have some chances to develop, and the odds aren't bad that one of them will be impressive. I think Splitter is already the best all-around center since Five Oh left, and he's going to get better. There's really no reason not to expect Neal to improve. Richards is coming in at some point, and you'd hope that Pop will learn his lesson about not giving young guys burn. If Duncan's defense and rebounding continue at the same level, and if the Spurs go back to gameplanning to defend, then they should be fine and I like their chances against anyone.

[HankChinaski]

Honestly I don't see the spurs getting rid of Bonner. His contract isn't that bad at all. If anything he makes for a regular season rotation player to bring in off the bench. I don't see him being anything extremely useful come playoffs. He can shoot, but his release is slow and without a post presence that gets buckets in the paint he isn't going to get his shot off often at all.

Only way they are dumping him is with a package of neal/hill i would imagine. Honestly there's a good chance at above average to average team that could use someone like bonner to help facilitate the offense out at the 3pt line. He's shown that he is scrapy but overall isn't a major impact that puts you over the top. So a trade could be possible, but for them to give us anything back well i think they would want either one of those two added in the deal (Hill/Neal). And if it comes to that it will depend on the team the spurs are attempting to trade with has available and willing to trade for with those players in mind.

Richard Jefferson isn't effective in the half court offense with this roster. His contract isn't going to help either in ridding him. Unless we try and pull a bad contract type player with a combination of RJ and Bonner or RJ and a nice rookie contract like blairs I don't see them getting anything. Off the bench like TVP mentioned sounds as good of a plan as any.

The spurs need a younger post presence in the paint on offense. and a wing defender that can if possible stretch from 1-4 on defense. Something like that with the current squad minus a Dice since he's most likely retiring would

I like what I've seen from anderson. Would like to see him at the SG position playing 20+ a game. Curious to see if there is a possible steal in Butler. Neal off the bench is always nice. Hill, Blair, Bonner are contracts that are useable to bringing something in, but RJ is almost an albatross of a contract considering his age. It will take Buford some extra wheeling and dealing to bring something in with regards to RJ. Although there are a ton of stupid Front Offices in this league so who knows.

And Ryan Richards, well I would love to believe he could be an impact player right out the gate next season, but I seriously doubt it.

[HankChinaski]

Honestly I think a 4/5 post presence defender should be the spurs primary objective during the draft and off season. If we can bring in someone to make impressive difference there spurs can just evaluate the young talent or sign a vet wing to fill in the rest and make do from there.

[mingus]

since the big 3 are probably going to be kept intact, i hope the FO approaches the off-season with defense in mind. Spurs badly need it at the SF and back-up center & PF positions.

ideally, they get a guy that can play great defense at SF so that RJ can come off the bench. best case scenario would be Shane Battier, but he seems to have a really good relationship with his town and team so i doubt it happens. Tayshawn Prince? Grant Hill? there are some nice options at SF.

as for Blair & Bonner: bottom line if Spurs walk into camp trotting Bonner & Blair as the back-up 4 & 5 respectively i will literally cry and i will question why the team just didn't decide to blow it up.

[Obstructed_View]

I have much less problem with Bonner and Blair as backups if a couple of things happen:

Splitter and Duncan are starting
One of them (Splitter/Duncan)is on the floor at virtually all times.

I'd also like to see the Spurs get some size from the draft or the free agent market, or both, and let them play. If Richards comes over and isn't in Austin the entire season, I'd like him to get some burn to see if he can defend.

[james evans]

I have much less problem with Bonner and Blair as backups if a couple of things happen:

Splitter and Duncan are starting
One of them (Splitter/Duncan)is on the floor at virtually all times.

I'd also like to see the Spurs get some size from the draft or the free agent market, or both, and let them play. If Richards comes over and isn't in Austin the entire season, I'd like him to get some burn to see if he can defend.

at NO POINT should splitter and bonner ever be on the floor at the same time though. and pop did it quite a bit.

[mingus]

I have much less problem with Bonner and Blair as backups if a couple of things happen:

Splitter and Duncan are starting
One of them (Splitter/Duncan)is on the floor at virtually all times.

I'd also like to see the Spurs get some size from the draft or the free agent market, or both, and let them play. If Richards comes over and isn't in Austin the entire season, I'd like him to get some burn to see if he can defend.

that or make a trade.

all these guys should be on the table IMO:

Gary Neal, Blair, Bonner.

as much as i like Gary Neal, his stock might be the highest it'll ever be right now. i think for next year and for the future, James Anderson is a way better option. he's young, pretty athletic and has good size. i would say that George Hill should be used as an asset too, but there's no back up pg on this team. Quinn won't cut it. if trading one or all of those guys can net a guy with size i would be all for it. then you hope to draft a big to go along with that. as for Richards, i put no stock into this guy. i've seen a youtube video of him, but anyone can look goon on a youtube compilation.

[james evans]

i wouldn't trade neal. he can hit the open 3 while creating his own shot off the dribble. he will never be a franchise player, but can get buckets when everyone else is cold.

[Obstructed_View]

that or make a trade.

all these guys should be on the table IMO:

Gary Neal, Blair, Bonner.

as much as i like Gary Neal, his stock might be the highest it'll ever be right now. i think for next year and for the future, James Anderson is a way better option. he's young, pretty athletic and has good size. i would say that George Hill should be used as an asset too, but there's no back up pg on this team. Quinn won't cut it. if trading one or all of those guys can net a guy with size i would be all for it. then you hope to draft a big to go along with that. as for Richards, i put no stock into this guy. i've seen a youtube video of him, but anyone can look goon on a youtube compilation.

Neal looks like a winner to me, and he's making nothing. He's got no value to the Spurs if they trade him. All the things you said about Neal go double for Hill. He's actually got some value and it looks like he's never going to be worth more than he is now. And Hill isn't a point guard; Neal can probably run point as well as he can. I'd like to see Anderson get some time at shooting guard which is why Hill becomes odd man out.

I don't want Richards to get minutes because I think he's good, I want him to get minutes so we can find out. The Spurs went into a playoff series this season and could have gotten some use out of Ian Mahinmi. I'm sick of not knowing what the team has on the frontline because everyone's too chickenshit to play them.

[HankChinaski]

Hill looks identically to Parker in a lot of ways his first few years. If we didn't have such a small squad I think Hill could perform and do much better out there. He still hasn't hit his ceiling in my opinion, but I think this summer now more than ever is a time where you seriously look whats out there for a few of the guys we have on the roster.

[mingus]

Neal looks like a winner to me, and he's making nothing. He's got no value to the Spurs if they trade him. All the things you said about Neal go double for Hill. He's actually got some value and it looks like he's never going to be worth more than he is now. And Hill isn't a point guard; Neal can probably run point as well as he can. I'd like to see Anderson get some time at shooting guard which is why Hill becomes odd man out.

i would rather trade Hill but that leaves a big hole at back up PG, and i've not seen enough of a sample size of Neal playing it to back trading Hill. i would personally love it if Neal were able to come in and fill the back up pg spot though. do you bank on him to do that though?

[yavozerb]

Neal looks like a winner to me, and he's making nothing. He's got no value to the Spurs if they trade him. All the things you said about Neal go double for Hill. He's actually got some value and it looks like he's never going to be worth more than he is now. And Hill isn't a point guard; Neal can probably run point as well as he can. I'd like to see Anderson get some time at shooting guard which is why Hill becomes odd man out.

I don't want Richards to get minutes because I think he's good, I want him to get minutes so we can find out. The Spurs went into a playoff series this season and could have gotten some use out of Ian Mahinmi. I'm sick of not knowing what the team has on the frontline because everyone's too chickenshit to play them.

Seriously....:lol

[Obstructed_View]

i would rather trade Hill but that leaves a big hole at back up PG, and i've not seen enough of a sample size of Neal playing it to back trading Hill. i would personally love it if Neal were able to come in and fill the back up pg spot though. do you bank on him to do that though?

No, Neal's not a backup point guard. The point is: Neither is Hill. I'd get a backup point guard like a normal team does.

[ducks]

rj for jr smith

[angelbelow]

Exactly. You made my point for me.

What sounds more likely:

1. Splitter turns into a 12-points, 10-rebound defensive force. Neal or Hill take the next step to be either a legit starting shooting guard or a 6MOY candidate. Another two or three horses can be located that can carry the slack. The Old Big 3 can peak in the playoffs. The Spurs make one last surprising run with a team that depends on six or seven players rather than three.

Well we can certainly hope for this. Imagine if we auditioned Splitter enough this year, we would be able to make more of an educated guess oh how much hes going to average/contribute next year.

[angelbelow]

that or make a trade.

all these guys should be on the table IMO:

Gary Neal, Blair, Bonner.

as much as i like Gary Neal, his stock might be the highest it'll ever be right now. i think for next year and for the future, James Anderson is a way better option. he's young, pretty athletic and has good size. i would say that George Hill should be used as an asset too, but there's no back up pg on this team. Quinn won't cut it. if trading one or all of those guys can net a guy with size i would be all for it. then you hope to draft a big to go along with that. as for Richards, i put no stock into this guy. i've seen a youtube video of him, but anyone can look goon on a youtube compilation.

Neal won't be traded. He has value but his contract is like 500k.

Blair and Hill are likely are trade chips and may be packaged with Bonner or Dices contract. RJ is probably here to stay until 2013. With that said, I think we have a big hole at the 3 and James Anderson is one of the players that can potential help. So I believe that Neal and Anderson can coexist.

[mingus]

No, Neal's not a backup point guard. The point is: Neither is Hill. I'd get a backup point guard like a normal team does.

yeah, i agree with that reasoning.

Parker/FA PG (maybe T.J. Ford, or Anthony Carter)
Manu/Neal
James Anderson/RJ

gotta get a defensive wing though because i still don't think that's a wing rotation that's going to play much better perimiter defense than this year, or if it'll even be better at all. Spurs need a true difference maker defensively on the perimiter.

only team without a true go-to player to win it all in the last 50 years is the '04 Pistons, and they did it with defense. but even that team had a legit low post scorer in Rasheed Wallace. Duncan's not there anymore. i just see no concievable way the Spurs can get back to a championship level team w/o that. it's one of the reason i still see OKC as being somewhat suspect. but Spurs don't have KD or Westbrook level talent to somwhat compensate for that.

[team-work]

The season has ended more abruptly then I would expected. However, given the struggles since the All-Star break, this outcome is not totally surprising.

Just read from NBA.com that Popovich said injuries to Duncan and Ginobili disturbed the team's rhythm heading into the playoffs, and that the team would not undergo drastic changes this offseason.

http://www.nba.com/2011/news/04/30/spurs-popovich.ap/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt2

I agree the team should not panic and keeping the Big-3 intact is not a bad move regarding the last run for Duncan to contend for a :lobt:. Some youngsters should be kept and developed. After Duncan and Ginobili's retirement, I would expect the superstars won't prefer to play in SA even with the salary cap relief. Therefore the young core will become the cornerstone of this team. In future I would be more than satisfied if they play as a coherent group, like the Rockets this season.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Anderson, Green and Butler are going to have some chances to develop, and the odds aren't bad that one of them will be impressive. I think Splitter is already the best all-around center since Five Oh left, and he's going to get better. There's really no reason not to expect Neal to improve. Richards is coming in at some point, and you'd hope that Pop will learn his lesson about not giving young guys burn. If Duncan's defense and rebounding continue at the same level, and if the Spurs go back to gameplanning to defend, then they should be fine and I like their chances against anyone.

You had me at hello.

[rmt]

I think that Spurs are not going to make any major changes. TP has said that this was the last year of a real chance of contending. That's probably why Duncan said this was one of his toughest losses - he really did think that they had a chance.

This past year Spurs have re-signed Manu (3 years), RJ (4), Bonner (4) and TP (4). They are resigned to the fact that they weren't going to contend after this year. I don't think they're going to trade anyone. The only one they might think of trading would be RJ but with his contract who would want him. We have been spoiled with 13 years of contention, but the reality is that so few teams really contend or win. I think that as fans we just have to re-adjust our expectations.

Duncan deserves to do whatever he wants - whether that be play out his contract, retire, opt out and re-sign at a lower amount/longer years. Manu is very popular - he doesn't want to go anywhere and he won't (from a financial/draw POV). TP also doesn't want to play with anyone but TD/Manu/Pop. When they retire, then he'll be okay with going to some other team until he retires.

They're just going to go along, try to accumulate and develop the players they have and wait out TD/Manu retiring. IMO, there's zero chance they blow it up and very little chance that they try to reload with the intention of contending.

That said, here's my opinion on what they should do:
1) Try to trade RJ with Blair - preferably for a (post) scoring (not undersized) big
2) Get rid of Bonner - he shouldn't be as hard to move as RJ - try to get a mobile 4.
3) Use MLE for SF (at least 6'7" and strong - not skinny-type like Ariza)
4) Play Splitter as many minutes as possible.
5) Hope that Butler can play backup SF.
6) Keep Novak for his 3pt shooting.
7) Try to convince TD to opt-out and re-sign at a much lower price.

Bruno, Spurs (34-19) were virtually even with MEM (35-20) since Jan. 1. Spurs just had a hot start to the season and Mem a bad start with their new players trying to adjust. MEM was not a bad team - their style suits playoffs much more than Spurs. Only for a short stretch in 1st quarter of game 5 did Spurs play like they did all season long. MEM imposed their will on them.

[ploto]

Just read from NBA.com that Popovich said injuries to Duncan and Ginobili disturbed the team's rhythm heading into the playoffs...


Using the injury excuse every single year gets old. Every team, including Memphis, has injuries.

[Spurs Brazil]

Spurs have to find a contract as bad as Jefferson and make a trade. And the big problem is just not find a bad contract it needs to be a long and bad contract because Jefferson deal end only in 2014

Maybe RJ for Petro and Outlaw

[Capt Bringdown]

Using the injury excuse every single year gets old. Every team, including Memphis, has injuries.

Especially since Manu is always injured this time of year. Like b2b games, one of our built-in excuses.

[GhosTown]

Unless you put FIRED Pop at the Top of the list. It doesn't matter who we get or lose in the off season.

Pop will find a way to choke the Spurs season away. For 4 years, this guy is the problem. And it seems every year he blames it on injuries. Well not this year. That shit ain't going to fly. The Spurs were out coached by the Grizz and that's why we lost. We had the better team and HCA yet we are on vacation. Pop has to go. PERIOD

[LavaLamp]

Sadly, this is moot since there will not be a next season: http://bit.ly/lrWN2i (video) The Bible reveals that May 21, 2011 is Judgment Day.

[medic1]

what do you guys think of this trade. You cant expect anything great for RJ, but we need him off the team. I'm trading shit for shit. but some shit just doesnt smell that bad. might even consider throwing in another player or draft pick to make them do the trade.

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=3o3xwgc

[silk]

What's the problem with Greg Oden ? I think we're desperate enough to go hard after him in the off season.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

What's the problem with Greg Oden ? I think we're desperate enough to go hard after him in the off season.

What's not to love about a big man who has played a combined 21 games of basketball in the last two years due to injury?

Sign him up for the max!

[Fireball]

I am one of the guys who thinks TD should retire after his performance in this years playoffs. But I just saw the first round numbers of Pau Gasol (13 Pts, 7 Reb, 42% FG) ... should the spaniard retire too?

[TJastal]

Seriously....:lol

Don't you ever get tired of defending Pop on here 24/7 Yavozerb.. lol

Ian Mahinmi has the athleticism and size to be an impact player in the nba, a Serge Ibaka type player. He's what, 25 years old now? All he needs is an opportunity which will eventually come his way.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Don't you ever get tired of defending Pop on here 24/7 Yavozerb.. lol

Ian Mahinmi has the athleticism and size to be an impact player in the nba, a Serge Ibaka type player. He's what, 25 years old now? All he needs is an opportunity which will eventually come his way.

But can he hit the three in the regular season when it doesn't matter? [/Pop]

[silk]

I want Oden and Batum here next year, give the blazers all they want except for Timmy and Manu, find a third team, don't know, must be possible, Fuck Aggie, fuck RC do this now !

[5in10]

start a lineup of:

Parker
Anderson
Butler/Green----whoever wins out the competition for starting spot
Duncan
Splitter

bench
Manu
Hill/Neal
Butler/Green Loser
Blair
Whomever we pick up this offseason.

Trim the Fat.

-After the beating OKC took from the grizzlies today, I'm convinced that the Grizzlies could very well go to the finals. They were the better team, but not by much. I would love to keep dyess but as like the 4th or 5th big man off the bench, and not at the cost of us losing out on a more talented big man. The drive for five is still alive, and I believe with just a couple of subtle changes, and a new mindset of defense first, that we could truly contend next year.

-Get rid of RJ, Bonner, Hill and Neal if we have to, to get a shotblocking big man. IF no one takes, keep bonner and RJ glued to the bench where theyd make nice cheerleaders and not have any pressure on them.

-I love me some neal, but to me everything he does is negated by him on the defensive side. Has anyone else in the nba given up as much and 1's as him?I also feel JA has the higher ceiling and can replace the production.

-I feel like we need to trim down the amount of wings we have, maybe im wrong. It has to affetct the way someone plays when you never know if you are gonna play or not.
-Look at the following big men this offseason:

Kenyon Martin- Tough gritty big man, with some range.

Kris Humpries- Dont know much about him, besides the fact that he was on my fantasy team this year, and rebounded at a kevin love rate, blocked the occasional shot, and scored about 10 a game. Could be case of just being on a bad team, with mr anti-rebound brook

Deandre Jordan- Atheltic shotblocking bigman that would be great for us, although I wonder if he could handle POP with his immaturity, and not sure where his BBiq lies.

Greg Oden- same as Jordan, with more IQ. problem is he is as fragile as an 95 year old man with osteoporosis. Someone is probably gonna offer way more to him than we ever could.

Yao Ming- This just sounds crazy. Would be great next to duncan. Im thinking , make an mle offer to him,, maybe just a one or two year contract? His value has never been lower. We wouldnt have to play him that many minutes hopefully increasing the likelihood that he wouldn't get hurt. Talk about presence though, depending on what he has left.

NENE- Love him as a player, but just dont see him fitting any needs for us, always seemed kind of soft to me.

Tyson Chandler- Doubtful, but one could only hope he sees his chances of winning a ring better with the spurs than mavs.

Anderson Varjao- Great defender, midrange shot, rebounder, and intangibles. Kind of brings the same things as tiago"blue collar worker". Maybe trading like bonner and blair for him would work.

OK I know some of these are pipe dreams, but let me hear your thoughts on what we should do.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I want Oden and Batum here next year, give the blazers all they want except for Timmy and Manu, find a third team, don't know, must be possible, Fuck Aggie, fuck RC do this now !

Intelligent well thought out response.

Nevermind that

1) Portland hates us and will never trade with us

2) Batum is a cheap player for them relative to what he does for them, they have no reason to trade him

3) Oden is damaged goods. We need youth and athleticism, not a guy coming off microfracture surgery with brittle knees that's only played 20 basketball games in the last two years.

I think you're the one who needs to fuck off.

[ace3g]

I would just love for the Spurs to have a true back up at every position, specifically the SF spot.

[Obstructed_View]

I would just love for the Spurs to have a true back up at every position, specifically the SF spot.

I'd like the Spurs to have a true starter at the SF spot. :)

[silk]

I don't care what you think, you POS. Get the fuck off my dick !

[eightG4]

Seriously In my opinion I ll do that :


http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=3c3sle9


(http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=3rrms69)

[eightG4]

Maybe I add another player to push the trade for Minesota.