Osama Dead Or Captured?!?!?!?

[LnGrrrR]

interesting. i read the way they got to that courier was through those dudes at gitmo, and that info was acheived through waterboarding. if no waterboarding no info.

I don't think that justifies waterboarding. While it may point out the efficacy of torture, it doesn't justify it morally, in my eyes.

[clambake]

White House press briefing just now:

Osama used his wife as a human shield during the gun fight.

What a little bitch (Osama, not his wife).

she was probably tiny. he shoulda married a san antonio chick. zing

[Jacob1983]

I was watching CSI Miami when it happened. Why couldn't Obama have waited like 10 to 15 minutes? His speech cut off the ending of CSI Miami. I wanted to know if Jan from The Office was the killer. I bet a lot of old people were pissed that Barry had to cut into CSI Miami.
First off, I think this whole Bin Laden being dead thing is suspicious. They destroyed pretty much most of the evidence of the raid including Bin Laden's body. And why the fuck was that piece of shit given a Muslim funeral? Who the fuck cares if he gets a funeral? Did Tim McVeigh get a funeral after he was executed? Nope. Whether or not if it really happened, this really helps Barry in a lot of ways. It may have sealed the deal on his re-election. However, I do think it's possible that he may have played this card too early. For the record, I believe that terrorists especially pieces of shit like Osam don't deserve funerals. And I also think it was stupid for Osama to be killed. What about all the information that the CIA could have gotten from him if he had caved and gave them information?

So how long will this current Obama lovefest happen? And isn't it funny how this shit makes people forget about how fucked up the economy is and how hard it is to get a job right now? And everyone's pretty much forgotten about the tornado victims in Alabama and other parts of the south.

[clambake]

wheres that face palm emoticon?

[Jacob1983]

In Osama's asshole

[xeromass]

So climb out and bring it with you.

[TeyshaBlue]

wheres that face palm emoticon?

I'm a giver.:lol


http://www.audioandanarchy.com/images/smilies/fack.png

[Jacob1983]

Do you know everything? If not then how the fuck do you 100 percent know if Bin Laden's dead? Are you all knowing?

[Crookshanks]

Now I lay me down to sleep... one less terrorist this world does keep... with all my heart I give my thanks... to those in uniform regardless of ranks... you serve our country and serve it well... with humble hearts your stories tell... so as I rest my weary eyes... while freedom rings our flag still flies... you give your all, do what you must... with God we live and God we trust.... Amen

[MannyIsGod]

I'm not all knowing but I do know Jacob is an idiot.

[Stringer_Bell]

So how long will this current Obama lovefest happen? And isn't it funny how this shit makes people forget about how fucked up the economy is and how hard it is to get a job right now? And everyone's pretty much forgotten about the tornado victims in Alabama and other parts of the south.

Osama fucked up the economy by attacking the financial center, then getting Bush to launch 2 wars. Killing him doesn't fix our money troubles, but it sure feels good.

[Jacob1983]

So you know everything that happened on 9/11? I just think it might have been more beneficial if he had been kept alive at least for a little bit. Obama just showed his true colors. He's a conservative pretending to be a liberal.

[monosylab1k]

I just think it might have been more beneficial if he had been kept alive at least for a little bit.

Yeah so does every-fucking-body else in the world, but if you're in the middle of a firefight are you gonna let more Americans die just so that faggot can be taken alive?

[Jacob1983]

Innocent people die every day. Besides, the U.S. government could live with it. They've done it before.

[monosylab1k]

Innocent people die every day. Besides, the U.S. government could live with it. They've done it before.

I hope that you die from AIDS.

[clambake]

this jacob guy is a riot

[DarrinS]

Some White Knuckle Moments for Elite Navy SEALs Team

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2011/05/some-white-knuckle-moments-for-elite-navy-seals-team.html




The Navy SEALs team that conducted this operation was the legendary Team Six, aka DevGru, or the “Naval Special Warfare Development Group,” flown into Pakistan by helicopter teams from the 160th Special Operations Air Regiment, part of the Joint Special Operations Command.

The original plan was for the Navy SEALs to rappel down into the compound, and that’s how they practiced it in April on a replica of the compound the military constructed in the U.S. on which SEALs Team Six conducted two practice runs.

But Sunday, one of the helicopters had an issue – they’re not sure what as of now – and conducted a soft crash landing. The chopper hit the deck – “it was a real white-knuckle moment,” a US official tells ABC News.

Another white-knuckle moment – at the end of the operation, Pakistan’s military scrambled fighter jets looking for the US helicopters. Who knows what could have happened if the Pakistani planes had reached the US helicopters -- but they didn’t.

The US team got back to Afghanistan by around 5:45 pm ET.

This operation happened, an official said, because of dogged, relentless intelligence work. For years, from detainees at Gitmo, the CIA had the nom de guerre of the courier, but they didn’t have his true name until 2007.

Intel spotted him in early 2009 – it took a while to follow him . Last August when intel found the compound the reaction was along the lines of “Oh my God who are they hiding here?” a official said, recalling definite recognition this was a significant find. Congressional leaders were briefed about the compound in December.

One possible complication: While CIA contractor Ray Davis was in the Pakistani prison there were concerns about his safety were this mission to be conducted.

Davis’s March 16 release cleared that possible obstacle to the operation -- a kill mission, with the clear objective to kill bin Laden.

-Jake Tapper

[lazerelmo]

I for one am not buying the justification for burying him at sea. It reaks with cover up. Why don't they just admit. He was unarmed, in the bathroom hooked up to his dialysis machine, and some Pakistani security guard shot him in the back with a deer rifle. Instead they have to come up with this glamorous, "shot in the head while returning fire." scenario Complete with black hawk down helicopter and Navy seals.

Couple of days from now Al Qaeda will produce some video of Osama tooling around some mountains with his cane saying he's not dead. We needed that body as leverage.

[LnGrrrR]

I for one am not buying the justification for burying him at sea. It reaks with cover up. Why don't they just admit. He was unarmed, in the bathroom hooked up to his dialysis machine, and some Pakistani security guard shot him in the back with a deer rifle. Instead they have to come up with this glamorous, "shot in the head while returning fire." scenario Complete with black hawk down helicopter and Navy seals.

Couple of days from now Al Qaeda will produce some video of Osama tooling around some mountains with his cane saying he's not dead. We needed that body as leverage.

Uhm.. pretty sure there's evidence of a downed helicopter.

But I guess dumb people can believe what they want.

[Jacob1983]

I'm just saying that you can't always 100 percent believe everything you hear from this government. They've been hiding shit from us for over 200 hundred years.

[vy65]

I'm just saying that you can't always 100 percent believe everything you hear from this government. They've been hiding shit from us for over 200 hundred years.

like aliens and shit, right?

[DarrinS]

Enhanced interrogation produced intel that led to OBL.


Everyone cool with that?

[fyatuk]

That said, the question stands, do you really doubt that the GOP will take great steps to minimize this before the election?


They'll definitely try and minimize Obama's credit, but I'd bet they're more likely to do that by accentuating their own part in it (law changes in intelligence gathering, etc, etc, whatever they can reasonable claim affected it, and of course Bush chasing him into a corner or something).

I don't think they'll try and say Obama didn't do anything (or very little), just that he stood on their framework.

[clambake]

didn't look like he was chased into a corner.

it looks like bush was duped by his buddy.

[lazerelmo]

Uhm.. pretty sure there's evidence of a downed helicopter.

But I guess dumb people can believe what they want.


We'll yeah. It "malfunctioned". That's military code for "shot down" by deer rifle.

[Winehole23]

Enhanced interrogation produced intel that led to OBL.Source?

Everyone cool with that?Absolutely not. If the ends don't justify the means neither do the results.

[lazerelmo]

Enhanced interrogation produced intel that led to OBL.


Everyone cool with that?


:clap

[DMX7]

Michelle Obama "got some" last night, baby!

[Jacob1983]

vy65, can you definitively tell me that aliens exist or don't exist? Can you also tell me definitively that Osama is dead? Who killed JFK? What about Area 51? Would you bet your life on your certainty that Osama is dead?

Liberals apparently don't care how the information was received. I guess Gitmo actually is a good thing since isn't that where the information came from about Bin Laden's location?

[lazerelmo]

Michelle Obama "got some" last night, baby!

Yeah, I'm sure standing in that conference room going " What just happened? What just happened?" really made him feel like a man.

Probably dressed up like a navy seal, too.

[DarrinS]

Source?
Absolutely not. If the ends don't justify the means neither do the results.


http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=13512344

[DarrinS]

Michelle Obama "got some" last night, baby!

I see that you are in full kneepad mode.

[DoubtingThomas]

You'd think it was so obvious it was OBL's pad that no torture would be needed find this out.

[Winehole23]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=13512344
Mohammed did not reveal the names while being subjected to the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding, former officials said. He identified them many months later under standard interrogation, they said, leaving it once again up for debate as to whether the harsh technique was a valuable tool or an unnecessarily violent tactic.Your own link just kicked your ass. That would surprise me if it didn't happen so frequently.

Won't you ever learn to check your own sources?:rollin

[TeyshaBlue]

Your own link just kicked your ass. That would surprise me if it didn't happen so frequently.

Won't you ever learn to check your own sources?:rollin
http://www.audioandanarchy.com/images/smilies/fack.png

[TeyshaBlue]

C'mon, Darrin. Cowboy up here and take yer licks dude.

[024]

this absolutely guarantees obama's reelection. this operation also absolves the democratic image of being weak national security leaders ever since carter's failure to rescue those hostages in iran. combined with the navy seal op against those pirates, the successful assassination of bin laden will crush all lingering doubts that obama cannot decisively act.

[Winehole23]

Full propaganda mode:

Just make stuff up. When challenged, post the first superficially relevant search engine hit without reading it, pray hard nobody else reads it, then bask in your hard earned internet glory. Mission accomplished.

[Winehole23]

C'mon, Darrin. Cowboy up here and take yer licks dude.Runs and hides, every time.

[coyotes_geek]

C'mon, Darrin. Cowboy up here and take yer licks dude.

Fat chance of that happening.

[coyotes_geek]

this absolutely guarantees obama's reelection. this operation also absolves the democratic image of being weak national security leaders ever since carter's failure to rescue those hostages in iran. combined with the navy seal op against those pirates, the successful assassination of bin laden will crush all lingering doubts that obama cannot decisively act.

Pretty much.

[DJ Mbenga]

la times suggested waterboarding was a key to the intelligence, anyways im sure obama got a bj and called it a night. about all he had energy for.

[symple19]

Don't we pay Pakistan handsomely to use their air space for the Afghan mission? I'm pretty sure we do.

Sure, but I'm also sure there's some communication before that happens. These guys are still paranoid as hell about an Indian invasion, no way they let unidentified aircraft fly around unmolested

[Brazil]

Sorry for the dumb question maybe already answered why killing him instead of capturing him if they identified where he was living ?

[CommanderMcBragg]

This is how it is done sons.

http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2011/05/02/5680724572_d4696d593d_b_custom.jpg

[ChumpDumper]

Sorry for the dumb question maybe already answered why killing him instead of capturing him if they identified where he was living ?I believe he was told to surrender and refused.

And :lmao @ DarrinS.

[Chomag]

Sorry for the dumb question maybe already answered why killing him instead of capturing him if they identified where he was living ?

I would have personaly liked to have seen him brought before justic and not just executed on the Spot without tiral. I thought we were above that kind of tactic but..

Either way he is gone, and thats one evil guy less in the world. Sadly thats just one out fo many though.

[LnGrrrR]

Enhanced interrogation produced intel that led to OBL.


Everyone cool with that?

Not really. But I guess I'm "Dukakis"-ing myself with that answer.

[LnGrrrR]

I would have personaly liked to have seen him brought before justic and not just executed on the Spot without tiral. I thought we were above that kind of tactic but..

He wasn't executed. He was shot in a firefight. There's a difference.

If he had surrendered immediately, then the soldiers would have (in theory) taken him prisoner. But the chances of him surrendering were slim to none.

[ChumpDumper]

Not really. But I guess I'm "Dukakis"-ing myself with that answer.DarrinS was lying.

[LnGrrrR]

I'm just saying that you can't always 100 percent believe everything you hear from this government. They've been hiding shit from us for over 200 hundred years.

No one's saying you can trust the govt' 100% on everything. But in THIS case, the evidence seems to be in their favor. (Plus it would take a monumental idiot to claim Bin Laden is dead without some sort of proof.)

[Brazil]

He wasn't executed. He was shot in a firefight. There's a difference.

If he had surrendered immediately, then the soldiers would have (in theory) taken him prisoner. But the chances of him surrendering were slim to none.

well for trained soldiers and the correct equipment it is perfectly possible to capture alive a guy even if he didn't want to surrender unless he had some explosives with a detonator. That could be an explanation... I guess.

[clambake]

ummm, he was killed in a FIREFIGHT.

[symple19]

Another white-knuckle moment – at the end of the operation, Pakistan’s military scrambled fighter jets looking for the US helicopters. Who knows what could have happened if the Pakistani planes had reached the US helicopters -- but they didn’t.

answers my question

[LnGrrrR]

well for trained soldiers and the correct equipment it is perfectly possible to capture alive a guy even if he didn't want to surrender unless he had some explosives with a detonator. That could be an explanation... I guess.

It's possible, yes, but at a much greater risk to the soldiers involved. That mission involved multiple things going right, and they were on a strict time limit obviously. They didn't have time to get into an extended firefight, or deal with a hostile prisoner. If he had given up immediately, with all of his men, and not done ANYTHING hostile, he might have lived.

I doubt that occurred. Of course, we'll never know for sure. But I'm inclined to believe the explanation that was handed out, as I can't picture Osama just giving up.

[LnGrrrR]

DarrinS was lying.

Even if he WASN'T lying, it wouldn't change my opinion.

[ChumpDumper]

Even if he WASN'T lying, it wouldn't change my opinion.I believe you, but it's so much better to know that he was lying, isn't it?

[Marcus Bryant]

Cap the bastard and dump his body in the middle of the fucking ocean.

Well done. :tu

[Winehole23]

Even if he WASN'T lying, it wouldn't change my opinion.Nor mine.

[LnGrrrR]

I believe you, but it's so much better to know that he was lying, isn't it?

Definitely. Anything that denigrates waterboarding, and enhances classic interrogation, is a thumbs up in my eyes.

Edit: I know that last part is worded strangely, but you get what I mean. :lol

[Sigz]

This is how it is done sons.

http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2011/05/02/5680724572_d4696d593d_b_custom.jpg

Are they watching the firefight or something?

[Marcus Bryant]

And fuck the Pakistanis. Those fucking bastards.

[ChumpDumper]

Definitely. Anything that denigrates waterboarding, and enhances classic interrogation, is a thumbs up in my eyes.

Edit: I know that last part is worded strangely, but you get what I mean. :lolYes, we should repeat the words of the article DarrinS linked that exposed his lie:
Mohammed did not reveal the names while being subjected to the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding, former officials said. He identified them many months later under standard interrogationhttp://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=13512344

[ChumpDumper]

I was watching CSI Miami when it happened. Why couldn't Obama have waited like 10 to 15 minutes? His speech cut off the ending of CSI Miami. I wanted to know if Jan from The Office was the killer. I bet a lot of old people were pissed that Barry had to cut into CSI Miami. You're too stupid to realize you can watch full episodes online.

You're stupid.

It's worth repeating.

[ElNono]

Enhanced interrogation produced intel that led to OBL.

From your own link:

Mohammed did not reveal the names while being subjected to the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding, former officials said. He identified them many months later under standard interrogation, they said, leaving it once again up for debate as to whether the harsh technique was a valuable tool or an unnecessarily violent tactic.



Everyone cool with that?

Nice strawman and nope, not cool with that at all.

[ElNono]

Sure, but I'm also sure there's some communication before that happens. These guys are still paranoid as hell about an Indian invasion, no way they let unidentified aircraft fly around unmolested

They could have just told them we were shipping four choppers to Afghanistan for some BS mission... it was a 40 min quick stop and if not for the downed chopper they probably wouldn't have known any better.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Another white-knuckle moment – at the end of the operation, Pakistan’s military scrambled fighter jets looking for the US helicopters. Who knows what could have happened if the Pakistani planes had reached the US helicopters -- but they didn’t.

We'll likely never know, but I bet we had a couple of F-22s flying overwatch to deal with anything like that. Pakistanis would have probably been blown out of the sky.

[Winehole23]

And fuck the Pakistanis. Those fucking bastards.The increased tempo of US operations inside Pakistan since 2009 and this operation seem to reflect that view.

[Brazil]

It's possible, yes, but at a much greater risk to the soldiers involved. That mission involved multiple things going right, and they were on a strict time limit obviously. They didn't have time to get into an extended firefight, or deal with a hostile prisoner. If he had given up immediately, with all of his men, and not done ANYTHING hostile, he might have lived.

I doubt that occurred. Of course, we'll never know for sure. But I'm inclined to believe the explanation that was handed out, as I can't picture Osama just giving up.

I found that on a french newspaper

"Mais Ben Laden lui-même avait indiqué à plusieurs reprises qu'il mourrait en martyr et qu'il ne se laisserait jamais capturer. Par conséquent, je pense qu'ils ont dû faire plusieurs sommations, mais comme Ben Laden lui-même circulait souvent armé et portait en règle générale une ceinture d'explosifs, les forces spéciales n'ont pas eu d'autre choix que de l'abattre pour éviter d'abord qu'il ne les tue, et aussi pour être sûr d'arriver à un résultat."

"It says roughly Ben Laden had indicated he wanted to die like a martyr and he would never surrender. There US forces made certainly several warnings but as Ben Laden had a gun and usually had explosives with him the special forces had no alternatives to avoid casualties."

didn't know he was wearing explosives.

Anyway thats a very good news.


French site also stated that putting him under water was meant to avoid a cult of his body and no pictures to avoid a disrespect to muslim religion that could lead to violent movement of revolts.

all in all sounds plausible

[clambake]

you guys are mean. you ran darrin off.

[ElNono]

I would find much more justified the US issuing an ultimatum to Pakistan to clean up their shit or else, than keep on wasting money in Afghanistan, when it's been fairly obvious that pretty much all the support for the bad guys is coming straight from there, and that your average afghan citizen doesn't seem too interested in being a 'bastion of democracy'...

[djohn2oo8]

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkjxnikgwO1qhvsgno1_500.png

[The Reckoning]

heard the compound was only 200 meters from the Pakistani Military Academy

what. the. fuck.

[Mr. Peabody]

This is how it is done sons.

http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2011/05/02/5680724572_d4696d593d_b_custom.jpg

This pic can't be accurate. According to WC, Obama wasn't aware of the operation and was caught off guard by it just before making his long-awaited Sunday evening tornado speech.

[EVAY]

Sorry for the dumb question maybe already answered why killing him instead of capturing him if they identified where he was living ?

Not a dumb question at all. The Primary reason for not capturing UBL would be, IMHO, that a live terrorist leader would have to be kept somewhere, and the somewhere that he would be would be a flash-target of massive proportions for terrorists the world over.

The same rationale, I think, for burying him at sea. Burying him where no one could build a shrine, dig him up and venerate his remains.

LIke the remains of the Tsar's family after they were assassinated, like the cremation of the remains of the Nazi war criminals after the Nuremburg executions, you just don't want to allow the bodies of big-time enemies to be used to rally the remaining members of the enemy group.

[fraga]

Clearly faked...

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I like how everyone in that room is like "America, fuck yeah!" while Hillary is sitting there over holding back tears because we just popped that SOB in the head.

[Stringer_Bell]

You know Pakistan is going to suffer for this, so let's not act like we showed be pushing them around because OBL was hiding there all along like everyone said he was for the last decade. No doubt, they allowed us to go in there, and even though we prolly had to pay a nice chunk of change - we were able to accomplish our business, while they have to worry about the mess afterwards.

Sure, they are dicks, but I'd rather cooperate with them than assholes.

[djohn2oo8]

I like how everyone in that room is like "America, fuck yeah!" while Hillary is sitting there over holding back tears because we just popped that SOB in the head.

She is likke that because the first helicopter went down

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I found that on a french newspaper

"Mais Ben Laden lui-même avait indiqué à plusieurs reprises qu'il mourrait en martyr et qu'il ne se laisserait jamais capturer. Par conséquent, je pense qu'ils ont dû faire plusieurs sommations, mais comme Ben Laden lui-même circulait souvent armé et portait en règle générale une ceinture d'explosifs, les forces spéciales n'ont pas eu d'autre choix que de l'abattre pour éviter d'abord qu'il ne les tue, et aussi pour être sûr d'arriver à un résultat."

"It says roughly Ben Laden had indicated he wanted to die like a martyr and he would never surrender. There US forces made certainly several warnings but as Ben Laden had a gun and usually had explosives with him the special forces had no alternatives to avoid casualties."

didn't know he was wearing explosives.

Anyway thats a very good news.


French site also stated that putting him under water was meant to avoid a cult of his body and no pictures to avoid a disrespect to muslim religion that could lead to violent movement of revolts.

all in all sounds plausible

What a load of crap most of that is. If he had explosives strapped to him he would have detonated them before we got to him.

Pictures will be released, and in case you forgot we released picks of Saddam and his boys, as well as the other Osama kids we've popped already and other prominent AQ leaders whenever we could.

[Marcus Bryant]

heard the compound was only 200 meters from the Pakistani Military Academy

what. the. fuck.

Exactly.

The US gave the Pakistanis 20 large to find bin Laden.

[TDMVPDPOY]

well for trained soldiers and the correct equipment it is perfectly possible to capture alive a guy even if he didn't want to surrender unless he had some explosives with a detonator. That could be an explanation... I guess.

imo theres a conspiracy

usa and paki stage this shit and put this clown in there, put urself in OBL shoes, wouldnt you go out all guns of glory and planned for ur escape or if ima die i take all you along with me...so why wasnt his compound full of explosives..go out in a blaze of glory....and it didnt make sense less then 5 ppl was in his compound...

[EVAY]

I like how everyone in that room is like "America, fuck yeah!" while Hillary is sitting there over holding back tears because we just popped that SOB in the head.

Perhaps not the absolute brightest post you have ever made, Ag.

Look again. Every single man and woman in that room is looking very serious. There is no "yeah, America" look on anyone's face, and for all you or I know, that photo was taken when the American helicopter went down and everybody there was worried about American casualties (as many of them said they were after the fact).

Hate on Hillary all you want...she is certainly no fave of mine...but that post was genuinely stupid.

[Mr. Peabody]

well for trained soldiers and the correct equipment it is perfectly possible to capture alive a guy even if he didn't want to surrender unless he had some explosives with a detonator. That could be an explanation... I guess.


Options were limited. The compound was in a residential neighborhood in a sovereign country. If Obama ordered an airstrike and bin Laden was not in the compound, it would be a huge diplomatic problem. Even if Obama was right, obliterating the compound might make it nearly impossible to confirm bin Laden's death.

Said Brennan: "The president had to evaluate the strength of that information, and then made what I believe was one of the most gutsiest calls of any president in recent memory."

Obama tapped two dozen members of the Navy's elite SEAL Team Six to carry out a raid with surgical accuracy.

Before dawn Monday morning, a pair of helicopters left Jalalabad in eastern Afghanistan. The choppers entered Pakistani airspace using sophisticated technology intended to evade that country's radar systems, a U.S. official said.

Officially, it was a kill-or-capture mission, since the U.S. doesn't kill unarmed people trying to surrender. But it was clear from the beginning that whoever was behind those walls had no intention of surrendering, two U.S. officials said.

The helicopters lowered into the compound, dropping the SEALs behind the walls. No shots were fired, but shortly after the team hit the ground, one of the helicopters came crashing down and rolled onto its side for reasons the government has yet to explain. None of the SEALs was injured, however, and the mission continued uninterrupted.

With the CIA and White House monitoring the situation in real time – presumably by live satellite feed or video carried by the SEALs – the team stormed the compound.

Thanks to sophisticated satellite monitoring, U.S. forces knew they'd likely find bin Laden's family on the second and third floors of one of the buildings on the property, officials said. The SEALs secured the rest of the property first, then proceeded to the room where bin Laden was hiding. In the ensuing firefight, Brennan said, bin Laden used a woman as a human shield.

The SEALs killed bin Laden with a bullet to the head. Using the call sign for his visual identification, one of the soldiers communicated that "Geronimo" had been killed in action, according to a U.S. official.

Bin Laden's body was immediately identifiable, but the U.S. also conducted DNA testing that identified him with near 100 percent certainty, senior administration officials said. Photo analysis by the CIA, confirmation on site by a woman believed to be bin Laden's wife, and matching physical features such as bin Laden's height all helped confirm the identification. At the White House, there was no doubt.

[Winehole23]

you guys are mean. you ran darrin off.Mindlessly repeating biased inferences (Dick Cheney) and completely un-sourced assertions (serial liar Marc Thiessen), has certain risks attached.

[ElNono]

I like how everyone in that room is like "America, fuck yeah!" while Hillary is sitting there over holding back tears because we just popped that SOB in the head.

Hillary looks like she's gonna throw up, tbh

[ploto]

Out of respect for Islamic beliefs that a person must be buried within 24 hours, they buried him at sea. No country wanted him on their land, and if there is no land spot available immediately, then burial at sea is acceptable. The US obviously is taking great pains not to offend moderate Muslims.

I am not a military or intelligence buff at all, but I have found it very fascinating how evidence has been found and put together to figure this all out.

Someone asked about why did they not just bomb the place, but there was a lot of intelligence to be found in the compound, as well as being able to ID his body without a doubt.

[fraga]

http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/photos/images/original/000/119/236/OsamaBear.jpg?1304308728

[TDMVPDPOY]

Out of respect for Islamic beliefs that a person must be buried within 24 hours, they buried him at sea. No country wanted him on their land, and if there is no land spot available immediately, then burial at sea is acceptable. The US obviously is taking great pains not to offend moderate Muslims.

I am not a military or intelligence buff at all, but I have found it very fascinating how evidence has been found and put together to figure this all out.

Someone asked about why did they not just bomb the place, but there was a lot of intelligence to be found in the compound, as well as being able to ID his body without a doubt.

i thought they had to wait 1week for t he dna results to come in...

[Spurtacus]

Still waiting for my reward money.

[Mr. Peabody]

i thought they had to wait 1week for t he dna results to come in...

The U.S. already had his family's DNA on file, so they were probably just looking for family markers.


Some scientific experts said on Monday that if results really were so accurate, at least one of the sources was likely to have been a close relative, like a child or parent with whom he shared half his genes.

“That would be most likely,” said Frederic Zenhausern, director of the Center for Applied NanoBioscience and Medicine at University of Arizona.

DNA matching usually involves obtaining genetic material from a blood sample or cheek swab.

The vast majority of a person’s DNA sequence will be the same as every other person’s. So a test, which can be done in a few hours if needed, typically focuses on a small number of locations on the genome, usually 13 to 16 spots. These spots are located on what is sometimes referred to as junk DNA, areas of genetic material that do not contain instructions for building brain, bone and muscle.

[DarrinS]

From your own link:

Mohammed did not reveal the names while being subjected to the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding, former officials said. He identified them many months later under standard interrogation, they said, leaving it once again up for debate as to whether the harsh technique was a valuable tool or an unnecessarily violent tactic.




Nice strawman and nope, not cool with that at all.



Self-pwned by my speed reading. But it does raise an interesting hypothetical. The interogators didn't know (hindsight's always 20-20) that their conventional interrogation techniques produced actionable intel. But, if you were 100% certain that waterboarding would lead you to OBL, would you support it.

I already know where WineyHole and Lngrrr stand.

[DarrinS]

Intel was gathered at one of the so-called "black sites" (that the left is so fond of), so I wonder if Obama will follow through on this.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/22/obama-to-close-cia-black_n_159950.html

[Winehole23]

Self-pwned by my speed reading. Once again your so-called speed reading has led you to make a fundamental misrepresentation of tenor and fact. Maybe you should read slower.

[ElNono]

Self-pwned by my speed reading. But it does raise an interesting hypothetical. The interogators didn't know (hindsight's always 20-20) that their conventional interrogation techniques produced actionable intel. But, if you were 100% certain that waterboarding would lead you to OBL, would you support it.

I already know where WineyHole and Lngrrr stand.

The hypothetical is actually pretty uninteresting seeing you cannot realistically be 100% certain of the outcome of any kind of torture.

But regardless of that, no I wouldn't support torture in any way, shape or form, regardless of any perceived 'benefit'. I agree with the means being as important as the end.

[ElNono]

Intel was gathered at one of the so-called "black sites" (that the left is so fond of), so I wonder if Obama will follow through on this.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/22/obama-to-close-cia-black_n_159950.html

Probably not, much like Gitmo or pulling out of Afghanistan, and many more things he hasn't followed through on...

[LnGrrrR]

This pic can't be accurate. According to WC, Obama wasn't aware of the operation and was caught off guard by it just before making his long-awaited Sunday evening tornado speech.

:lol

[LnGrrrR]

Self-pwned by my speed reading. But it does raise an interesting hypothetical. The interogators didn't know (hindsight's always 20-20) that their conventional interrogation techniques produced actionable intel. But, if you were 100% certain that waterboarding would lead you to OBL, would you support it.

I already know where WineyHole and Lngrrr stand.

That's the sticking point for me. In the real world, it's never 100% whether info will be produced, or if it is, whether it will be verifiable.

It's as useful as saying, "Would you allow torture to US suspects if you knew they would give up information on where the missing bodies?" The implication is that all those who are tortured are a) guilty and b) definitely know actionable intel.

Keep it illegal, and if people go outside the boundaries of law, let a jury decide if it was the right or wrong decision. (That's my view, anyways.)

[ManuBalboa]

lol people trying to analyze this. You will never know the truth.


We all going to act like OBL isn't cryogenically frozen underneath the Pentagon?

[Nbadan]

Pakistan did its part (by Pakistan's President)...


My government endorses the words of President Obama and appreciates the credit he gave us Sunday night for the successful operation in Khyber Pakhtunkhawa. We also applaud and endorse the words of Secretary of State Hillary Clinton that we must “press forward, bolstering our partnerships, strengthening our networks, investing in a positive vision of peace and progress, and relentlessly pursuing the murderers who target innocent people.” We have not yet won this war, but we now clearly can see the beginning of the end, and the kind of South and Central Asia that lies in our future.

Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/pakistan-did-its-part/2011/05/02/AFHxmybF_story.html?hpid=z4)

Obama's primary challenger maybe Hillary again..I think she is lending great credibility to a possible 2016 run....

[Nbadan]

More good news...

Vast array of digital information recovered from bin Laden compound
by Jed Lewison


'Can you imagine what's on bin Laden's hard drive?'
They didn't just kill Osama bin Laden: they also recovered a wealth of digital information from his compound:

The assault force of Navy SEALs snatched a trove of computer drives and disks during their weekend raid on Osama bin Laden’s compound, yielding what a U.S. official called “the mother lode of intelligence.”

The special operations forces grabbed personal computers, thumb drives and electronic equipment during the lightning raid that killed bin Laden, officials told POLITICO.

“They cleaned it out,” one official said. “Can you imagine what’s on Osama bin Laden’s hard drive?”


This wasn't just about killing the guy who planned 9/11. This was about defeating the organization behind that attack. And this time, the mission is close being accomplished. For real. We are nearing the end of this nightmare.

KOS (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/05/02/972487/-Vast-array-of-digital-information-recovered-from-bin-Laden-compound)

[Nbadan]

Was Pakistan complicit in hiding Bin Laden?

Pakistani town shocked by bin Laden find
By Aisha Chowdhry, William M. Welch and Oren Dorell, USA TODAY


It casts doubt on the degree to which Pakistan was complicit in hiding and protecting bin Laden, founder of al-Qaeda and mastermind of the terrorist attacks on the United States that killed thousands of Americans on Sept. 11, 2001. Some experts say the find potentially shakes the future of U.S.-Pakistani relations by suggesting terrorists are operating more freely here than previously assumed. "The question of where Pakistan stands in this whole effort has come to the fore," said Richard Haass, president of the Council on Foreign Relations and former State Department official...

Former Pakistani president Pervez Musharraf, interviewed in Dubai by Bloomberg TV, insisted Pakistan had cooperated fully with the U.S. government and said that he had never known bin Laden's location. "No, never," Musharraf said. "That really surprises me." The implications for Pakistan were immediately clear to its own citizens. "What was he doing in Pakistan?" asked Umair Ejaz, a businessman in Lahore, which has been the scene of Islamist violence. He said his country's image has been damaged because it "implies Pakistan had given him free accommodation." "The blowback from this is going to be huge," Ejaz said...

USA today (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2011-05-02-osama-pakistan_n.htm)

its been reported it was a PAK Intelligence safe house

[Nbadan]

Some pics of bin laden's hideout

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v510/MMPics/OBLCompound.png

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-qOM0LAuBaNE/Tb8b9-0gOVI/AAAAAAAAAGE/xoE0RwHW6xE/64649-fSAT_EUROPE__FLIP__4884728_0-620874-01-09.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-JNxUtx_xVJ8/Tb8P-P8L5GI/AAAAAAAAAAM/Df05eXxH-G0/cr_mega_248_osama-compound-490.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-JNxUtx_xVJ8/Tb8P-P8L5GI/AAAAAAAAAAM/Df05eXxH-G0/cr_mega_248_osama-compound-490.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-FJUBaaagIJU/Tb8XLPmt7rI/AAAAAAAAAAM/lrK0upJh0R0/w4izm.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-CXcXRV2PdF4/Tb9pqzxT1AI/AAAAAAAAAAM/AoeVUVJjszI/compound_01.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-BK1dh_xh8qk/Tb8OIvFC-cI/AAAAAAAAAZo/wvjyiOZEXqw/OsamabinLAdenAbbottabadCompound2.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-fmmjJKAbqmg/Tb8XjYP4o-I/AAAAAAAAAAM/Wg1kEHN32M4/obl.jpg

[TDMVPDPOY]

wtf they say those are 16m walls...i thought they talkin about the fence...fkn liars

[mouse]

Reminds me when my unit @ ft Bragg went after Pablo

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44183000/gif/_44183818_plane_phone416.gif

http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00011/Hacienda-Napoles_11915t.jpg

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/09_02/pescobarR1109_468x404.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_1ofmuKkKFkA/Rrke5xrXf8I/AAAAAAAAAKw/c7owlA_mHb8/s400/DSCN1426.JPG

http://www.teoballve.com/workspace/uploads/pablo-pepe.jpg

[DJ Mbenga]

abc says somebody who saw the pic said its pretty brutal. gunshot wound above the eye with lots of blood and brains showing. i guess thats why they are debating showing it or not

[024]

they can just show the cleaned up version. they must have cleaned bin laden up before the funeral.

[ChumpDumper]

Self-pwned by my speed reading. But it does raise an interesting hypothetical. The interogators didn't know (hindsight's always 20-20) that their conventional interrogation techniques produced actionable intel. But, if you were 100% certain that waterboarding would lead you to OBL, would you support it.

I already know where WineyHole and Lngrrr stand.Waterboarding didn't work.

Live with that, Darrin. Just live with it.

[DarrinS]

Waterboarding didn't work.

Live with that, Darrin. Just live with it.


KSM had been waterboarded before giving this info. There's no telling one way or another if waterboarding was effective. None of us really knows what went on.

[MannyIsGod]

Lol

[Brazil]

Still waiting for my reward money.

I hope for your money that it is not Koolaid that must pay you. He is a welcher

[Agloco]

Obama just got re-elected.

Ease up off the accelerator boss. Lots of potential "shit happens" moments from now till then. People have a short memory. It's incumbent upon his staff to spin this in the correct fashion. The story about him proposing the seal team out of the blue is a good start I'd say.

[Agloco]

Reminds me when my unit @ ft Bragg went after Pablo

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44183000/gif/_44183818_plane_phone416.gif

http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00011/Hacienda-Napoles_11915t.jpg

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/09_02/pescobarR1109_468x404.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_1ofmuKkKFkA/Rrke5xrXf8I/AAAAAAAAAKw/c7owlA_mHb8/s400/DSCN1426.JPG

http://www.teoballve.com/workspace/uploads/pablo-pepe.jpg

I assume that's you holding the Super-Soaker 3000?

[Agloco]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/03/article-1382859-0BE03DE700000578-150_964x642.jpg

[Agloco]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/03/article-1382859-0BE03DB700000578-539_964x680.jpg

[lazerelmo]

This is how it is done sons.

http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2011/05/02/5680724572_d4696d593d_b_custom.jpg

official caption to this pic.

President Barack Obama and Vice President Joe Biden, along with members of the national security team, receive an update on the mission against Osama bin Laden in the Situation Room of the White House, May 1, 2011. Seated, from left, are: Brigadier General Marshall B. “Brad” Webb, Assistant Commanding General, Joint Special Operations Command; Deputy National Security Advisor Denis McDonough; Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton; and Secretary of Defense Robert Gates. Standing, from left, are: Admiral Mike Mullen, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff; National Security Advisor Tom Donilon; Chief of Staff Bill Daley; Tony Binken, National Security Advisor to the Vice President; Audrey Tomason Director for Counterterrorism; John Brennan, Assistant to the President for Homeland Security and Counterterrorism; and Director of National Intelligence James Clapper. Please note: a classified document seen in this photograph has been obscured. (Official White House Photo by Pete Souza

[Winehole23]

KSM had been waterboarded before giving this info. There's no telling one way or another if waterboarding was effective. KSM didn't crack while being waterboarded 183 times...but EIT may have worked because KSM gave information during routine interrogation, months later.

Now you're just piling absurdities on top of careless misrepresentations.

[clambake]

peter king just told the same lie on fox.

darrin is smitten.

[Pistons < Spurs]

The senior us official also says the White House received 3 sets of photos yesterday. The photos included:

1. Photos of OBLs body at a hanger after he was brought back to Afghanistan. This is the most recognizable with a clear picture of his face. The picture is gruesome because he has a massive open head wound across both eyes. It’s very bloody and gory.

2. Photos from the burial at sea on the USS Carl Vinson. Photos of OBL before the shroud was put on and then wrapped in the shroud.

3. There are photos of the raid itself that include photos of the two dead brothers, one of OBLs dead son (adult adolescent, maybe approx 18 yrs old) and some of the inside scene of the compound.

The official says the challenge is that the picture that includes the most recognizable image of OBLs face – from the hangar in Afghanistan – is so gruesome and mangled its not appropriate for say the front page of the newspaper. On the other hand, this is the one that is most identifiable as him.

http://whitehouse.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/03/even-more-on-the-photos/

[DarrinS]

KSM didn't crack while being waterboarded 183 times...but EIT may have worked because KSM gave information during routine interrogation, months later.

Now you're just piling absurdities on top of careless misrepresentations.


We'll never know.

[JoeChalupa]

Bill O'Reilly almost had an orgasm when Peter King mention water boarding last night.

[Cry Havoc]

We'll never know.

Yes, we know already. Waterboarding/extreme torture doesn't work.

[Winehole23]

We'll never know.That the benefits are unverifiable, is a piss poor argument for.

[ChumpDumper]

KSM had been waterboarded before giving this info. There's no telling one way or another if waterboarding was effective. None of us really knows what went on.The people who did it knew what went on. That's how they can say which technique got the information. You gave us an article that says so.

Why is it so important for you to cling to your lies and stupidly wrong assertions even after you destroy your own argument with something you thought was helping you?

You were wrong.

Waterboarding didn't get this information.

That's it.

Trying to deny that makes you as pathetic as any birther or truther.

[djohn2oo8]

fake?

http://wpc.281e.edgecastcdn.net/80281E/s/s/18/media18/2011/May/3/LiveLeak-dot-com-9440b6283d24-osama_bin_laden_death_picture.jpg?d5e8cc8eccfb6039 332f41f6249e92b06c91b4db65f5e99818bad7924940dbd6c6 99&ec_rate=350

[mouse]

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/Obama-RTM.jpg

[SA210]

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/Obama-RTM.jpg

:lol

[Winehole23]

We'll never know.Glad you finally admitted your support of torture is faith-based, rather than empirical or rational. As you well know, science excludes unfalsifiables.

So much for "we'll never know" being a vindication of the efficacy of torture.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

The official says the challenge is that the picture that includes the most recognizable image of OBLs face – from the hangar in Afghanistan – is so gruesome and mangled its not appropriate for say the front page of the newspaper. On the other hand, this is the one that is most identifiable as him.

Lame. Why are they worried about the front page headlines on a newspaper? Publish the damn photo and let local editors decide what page to put it on.

[DarrinS]

The people who did it knew what went on.

Yes, and we only "know" what these people are willing to say to the press.

[DarrinS]

Glad you finally admitted your support of torture is faith-based, rather than empirical or rational. As you well know, science excludes unfalsifiables.

So much for "we'll never know" being a vindication of the efficacy of torture.


If you have some empirical data, I'd like to see it.

[clambake]

clown points!

[ChumpDumper]

Yes, and we only "know" what these people are willing to say to the press.Then why did you present the extraction of the courier names from KSM through waterboarding as a solid fact? You claimed to know that with certainty and without reservation based on whatever source you heard it from.

You are lying again, Darrin. Is it the preservation of your e-rep or your desire to believe in torture that drives you to lie?

[LnGrrrR]

That the benefits are unverifiable, is a piss poor argument for.

DarrinS does more to undermine the argument for torture here. If we never know what exactly produces the info, why resort to waterboarding at all?

[LnGrrrR]

Yes, and we only "know" what these people are willing to say to the press.

Why do you think they're lying DarrinS? Why would they specifically say waterboarding didn't work?

Is it because the military is full of liberals?

[ChumpDumper]

It is true that some information that came from normal interrogation approaches at Guantanamo did lead to information that was beneficial in this instance. But it was not harsh treatment and it was not waterboarding.Which flaming liberal said this, Darrin?

[mouse]

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/Sheen-Osama.jpg

[Winehole23]

Full sophist mode: when making up shit and posting phony support for it doesn't work, fall back on obfuscation and sententious bullshit.

[DarrinS]

Full sophist mode: when making up shit and posting phony support for it doesn't work, fall back on obfuscation and sententious bullshit.


Says the guy that writes like this.

[ChumpDumper]

Says the guy that writes like this.Did you not understand what he posted?

[DarrinS]

Then why did you present the extraction of the courier names from KSM through waterboarding as a solid fact? You claimed to know that with certainty and without reservation based on whatever source you heard it from.



Actually, I used the term "enhanced interrogation", not waterboarding. Either way, I already admitted the mistake of declaring that this was a solid fact.

KSM is not the only person who revealed actionable intel. Another, at Gitmo, also endured enhanced interrogation -- cold was used on him, as well as humiliation.

[ChumpDumper]

Actually, I used the term "enhanced interrogation", not waterboarding. Either way, I already admitted the mistake of declaring that this was a solid fact.

KSM is not the only person who revealed actionable intel. Another, at Gitmo, also endured enhanced interrogation -- cold was used on him, as well as humiliation.
It is true that some information that came from normal interrogation approaches at Guantanamo did lead to information that was beneficial in this instance. But it was not harsh treatment and it was not waterboarding.Which flaming liberal said this, Darrin?

[DarrinS]

Did you not understand what he posted?


I prefer brevity and clarity to verbose, flowery lanuage. Just my preference.

[DarrinS]

Which flaming liberal said this, Darrin?


I'm on pins and needles.

[ChumpDumper]

I prefer brevity and clarity to verbose, flowery lanuage. Just my preference.Eh, you did nothing to address the actual point. That speaks volumes.

[DarrinS]

Question:


Does good-cop/bad-cop work without the "bad" cop?

[ChumpDumper]

I'm on pins and needles.Take a guess.

[ChumpDumper]

Question:


Does good-cop/bad-cop work without the "bad" cop?Conventional interrogation has worked without the techniques you have been lying about. That's why it's conventional.

[DarrinS]

Eh, you did nothing to address the actual point. That speaks volumes.


Would you consider the statement "I don't know" to be obfuscation?

It's pretty clear to me.

[ChumpDumper]

Would you consider the statement "I don't know" to be obfuscation?

It's pretty clear to me.It's the position you walked back to after stating with certainty that the harsh interrogation got this information from KSM.

You lied, then caught in the lie, you attempted to obfuscate.

It's pretty clear to me.

[DarrinS]

It's the position you walked back to after stating with certainty that the harsh interrogation got this information from KSM.

You lied, then caught in the lie, you attempted to obfuscate.

It's pretty clear to me.



lie: A false statement deliberately presented as being true;



I already admited my mistake.

[Winehole23]

Would you consider the statement "I don't know" to be obfuscation?Yes. It's a misrepresentation of what you actually said.

You said: "we'll never know." Right after you presented the linkage between torture and Eagle Claw as a fact, present tense, indicative mood.

[ChumpDumper]

lie: A false statement deliberately presented as being true;



I already admited my mistake.You lied about knowing it as a fact. Or were you lying when you said no one could ever know?

You lied at least once there.

Which one was the lie, Darrin?

[Winehole23]

DarrinS misrepresenting his own remarks is another honest mistake very much akin to misrepresenting what others say.

[ChumpDumper]

I get the feeling Darrin is done with this thread for awhile.

[NASpurs]

The US did the right thing in putting a bullet to his head even though he was apparently unarmed. Can you imagine the circus if he was captured alive?

http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/05/03/white.house.bin.laden/index.html

Bin Laden was unarmed when killed, White House says

Washington (CNN) -- Osama bin Laden was not armed when he was shot and killed by U.S. forces in the assault on his compound in Pakistan, White House Press Secretary Jay Carney said Tuesday.

The al Qaeda leader resisted the assault on his compound, Carney said, adding: "I think resistance does not require a firearm."

Carney described how the U.S. Navy SEALs carrying out the operation went floor-to-floor clearing the three-story compound where bin Laden's family lived with another family.

Three people were killed on the first floor, including a woman, and then the U.S. forces moved upstairs where they found bin Laden, Carney said.
"Bin Laden was then shot and killed," Carney said. "He was not armed."

On Monday, President Barack Obama's top counterterrorism adviser, John Brennan, said bin Laden was resisting and had a weapon, though it was unclear if bin Laden had fired a shot.

[CosmicCowboy]

The US did the right thing in putting a bullet to his head even though he was apparently unarmed. Can you imagine the circus if he was captured alive?

http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/05/03/white.house.bin.laden/index.html

Bin Laden was unarmed when killed, White House says

Washington (CNN) -- Osama bin Laden was not armed when he was shot and killed by U.S. forces in the assault on his compound in Pakistan, White House Press Secretary Jay Carney said Tuesday.

The al Qaeda leader resisted the assault on his compound, Carney said, adding: "I think resistance does not require a firearm."

Carney described how the U.S. Navy SEALs carrying out the operation went floor-to-floor clearing the three-story compound where bin Laden's family lived with another family.

Three people were killed on the first floor, including a woman, and then the U.S. forces moved upstairs where they found bin Laden, Carney said.
"Bin Laden was then shot and killed," Carney said. "He was not armed."

On Monday, President Barack Obama's top counterterrorism adviser, John Brennan, said bin Laden was resisting and had a weapon, though it was unclear if bin Laden had fired a shot.

damn. Can't believe they released that.

[DarrinS]

Yes. It's a misrepresentation of what you actually said.

You said: "we'll never know." Right after you presented the linkage between torture and Eagle Claw as a fact, present tense, indicative mood.


I have the right to change my opinion as new information becomes available. As for the whole "enhanced interrogation" business, if there is DATA that suggests that it is entirely ineffective, them I'm not an advocate for its continued use.

[ChumpDumper]

I have the right to change my opinion as new information becomes available.True, you can lie about anything you want.

[MannyIsGod]

We'll never know.

All of a sudden you think its we'll never know but before when you thought that the information backed up your viewpoint you sure as hell thought we'd know.

Textbook conformation bias.

[ChumpDumper]

damn. Can't believe they released that.Hmm. Don't know if that helps or hurts his martyrdom.

[MannyIsGod]

I have the right to change my opinion as new information becomes available. As for the whole "enhanced interrogation" business, if there is DATA that suggests that it is entirely ineffective, them I'm not an advocate for its continued use.

Um, shouldn't the burden of proof be on those who want to use it that it IS effective? Since when do we have to prove that things don't work in order to avoid using them?

I can now see why you usually just run away in threads. When you actually try to defend yourself you just come out even looking dumber.

[CosmicCowboy]

Hmm. Don't know if that helps or hurts his martyrdom.

I wasn't thinking as much about that as the legal questions it raises about invading a sovereign nation and assassinating an unarmed man.

Not that I care, but some certainly will.

[Winehole23]

As for the whole "enhanced interrogation" business, if there is DATA that suggests that it is entirely ineffective, them I'm not an advocate for its continued use.But presumably you will continue to defend its use without any data whatsoever supporting its effectiveness. Telling.

[MannyIsGod]

I wasn't thinking as much about that as the legal questions it raises about invading a sovereign nation and assassinating an unarmed man.

Not that I care, but some certainly will.

I doubt there will be a legal issue. What can be ascertained clearly from post review of video may not be clear at the time of action and it was a wartime mission.

[Cry Havoc]

Um, shouldn't the burden of proof be on those who want to use it that it IS effective? Since when do we have to prove that things don't work in order to avoid using them?

I can now see why you usually just run away in threads. When you actually try to defend yourself you just come out even looking dumber.


But presumably you will continue to defend its use without any data whatsoever supporting its effectiveness. Telling.

:lmao

If we killed prisoners before giving them a chance to speak, there would be no data that shows it's ineffective either, so maybe we should try that. :lol

[ChumpDumper]

I wasn't thinking as much about that as the legal questions it raises about invading a sovereign nation and assassinating an unarmed man.

Not that I care, but some certainly will.I'm reminded of an Al Gore quote during an internal debate over extraordinary rendition:

"That's a no-brainer. Of course it's a violation of international law, that's why it's a covert action. The guy is a terrorist. Go grab his ass."

[CosmicCowboy]

Um, shouldn't the burden of proof be on those who want to use it that it IS effective? Since when do we have to prove that things don't work in order to avoid using them?

I can now see why you usually just run away in threads. When you actually try to defend yourself you just come out even looking dumber.

It seems to be an accepted fact over the centuries that torture used in conjunction with normal stress/sleep deprivation/interrogation procedures can be effective.

The threat of impending repeated torture is often enough to make the prisoner realize the futility of resisting.

Just saying. It's been pretty effective for thousands of years.

[ChumpDumper]

It seems to be an accepted fact over the centuries that torture used in conjunction with normal stress/sleep deprivation/interrogation procedures can be effective.

The threat of impending repeated torture is often enough to make the prisoner realize the futility of resisting.

Just saying. It's been pretty effective for thousands of years.Effective in what?

Making Jews convert to Catholicism?

Making women admit to being witches?

Making Americans declare themselves war criminals?

[Blake]

Hmm. Don't know if that helps or hurts his martyrdom.

or if the needle on his martyr status even moves at all.

[CosmicCowboy]

Effective in what?

Making Jews convert to Catholicism?

Making women admit to being witches?

Making Americans declare themselves war criminals?

Why do you think the CIA gave spies suicide pills during the cold war? they knew if captured they wouldn't be able to resist repeated torture/interrogation.

[Winehole23]

The effectiveness of torture to produce false confessions is not contested. It's mainly what torture is for, historically speaking.

[MannyIsGod]

It seems to be an accepted fact over the centuries that torture used in conjunction with normal stress/sleep deprivation/interrogation procedures can be effective.

The threat of impending repeated torture is often enough to make the prisoner realize the futility of resisting.

Just saying. It's been pretty effective for thousands of years.

Accepted as fact and proven as fact are two different things. I don't need to point out the pretty much unlimited supply of ideas that were accepted as fact at one point only to be proven wrong.

If torture is effective, then there should be some actual proof of that.

In any event, the actual thing to note here wasn't whether or not torture is effective but the stunning clarity of Darrin's conformation bias and his inability to understand burden of proof which only adds to the former.

[Winehole23]

Even if it was shown to be effective, it would still be immoral, inhumane and contrary to over 200 years of US legal custom.

[MannyIsGod]

Why do you think the CIA gave spies suicide pills during the cold war? they knew if captured they wouldn't be able to resist repeated torture/interrogation.

Suicide pills were to avoid interrogation of any form. They aren't somehow proof that torture is effective.

[ChumpDumper]

Why do you think the CIA gave spies suicide pills during the cold war? they knew if captured they wouldn't be able to resist repeated torture/interrogation.Why didn't it work with KSM then?

[CosmicCowboy]

Even if it was shown to be effective, it would still be immoral, inhumane and contrary to over 200 years of US legal custom.

Just playing devils advocate, invading a soverign nation and assassinating someone is to.

[DesignatedT]

where the fuck are these pictures at. damn

[DarrinS]

Um, shouldn't the burden of proof be on those who want to use it that it IS effective? Since when do we have to prove that things don't work in order to avoid using them?



I'm not asking anyone to PROVE anything. I'm just saying that it's not a moral issue FOR ME. My concern is whether or not it is effective. If it's a complete waste of time, then I'm not for it.




I can now see why you usually just run away in threads. When you actually try to defend yourself you just come out even looking dumber.

I actually step away from my computer from time to time.

[lefty]

Don't shoot the messenger :D


UnychOXj9Tg

This was Benazir Bhutto, the hopeful FEMALE presidential candidate for Pakistan back in 2007. After she revealed that Osama Bin laden was apparently murdered and that the whole "War on Terror" was a farce, she was assassinated. Her killer was never found and it was made official that she was killed because she was a "female" running for president in an Islamic Country - and we all bought it.

Here is an excerpt from an article - www.opednews.com... (http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_len_hart_071231_bbc_censored_benazir.htm)

Bhutto herself has exposed the fraudulent nature of the Bush/Blair "war on terrorism". If Bin Laden is dead, as has been reported, then the various tapes that he is alleged to have made are all phony. The war on terrorism itself is a callous, calculated fraud perpetrated by a murderous Bush regime, a murderous Blair regime, a murderous puppet regime of Musharraf. That's why Bhutto was murdered.
She was the woman who knew too much. Bhutto exposed the fact that US policies cause terrorism and she stated the various ways in which groups inside the US and Britain benefited politically and materially from the phony war on phony terrorism, the failed war in Afghanistan, the war crime that is still perpetrated against the people of Iraq.
Bhutto posed a threat to the culprits in the Bush regime to include Bush himself. She posed a threat to the kiss ups in Musharraf's regime to include Musharraf and the liars who tried to float the incredible "lone lever" theory.

She was murdered. And the BBC has been caught censoring the most important piece of the puzzle.
I also like to state the fact that the Taliban wanted to give up Osama Bin Laden back in 2001 in effort to prevent an Invasion of Afghanistan. We all know how the story goes from then. www.guardian.co.uk... (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/oct/17/afghanistan.terrorism11)


A senior Taliban minister has offered a last-minute deal to hand over Osama bin Laden during a secret visit to Islamabad, senior sources in Pakistan told the Guardian last night. For the first time, the Taliban offered to hand over Bin Laden for trial in a country other than the US without asking to see evidence first in return for a halt to the bombing, a source close to Pakistan's military leadership said. But US officials appear to have dismissed the proposal and are instead hoping to engineer a split within the Taliban leadership.
My friends, we all have been duped. Even Wikipedia has been edited to remove any mention of Osama Bin laden being "supposedly killed" or dead anytime before 2nd May 2011.
en.wikipedia.org... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden#Activities_and_whereabouts_after_t he_September_11_attacks)

Plus to add to the fact, Bin Laden's body was immediately buried in the sea with no pictures taken of his dead body...And we're supposed to believe he is dead with no proof?

Even if he was killed on 2nd May 2011 as many of you may believe, I only fear what will happen next. Al Qaeda even threatened a Nuclear Hellstorm if Bin laden was killed. icwnews.com... (http://icwnews.com/hot-news/1790/wikileaks-al-qaida-has-nuclear-weapons.html)

I know not what the motives are of the US government, but I fear a nuclear threat is imminent in the near future which will undoubtedly lead to World War 3 with somehow Iran in the equation.




Source: IDK

[Blake]

Even if it was shown to be effective, it would still be immoral, inhumane and contrary to over 200 years of US legal custom.

I've heard spanking is effective.....would it be immoral if we just spank our enemies?

[CosmicCowboy]

Why didn't it work with KSM then?

I'm not in a position to say if it did or didn't and neither are you. It could be the threat of going back for another round was finally enough. We just don't know.

[LnGrrrR]

KSM is not the only person who revealed actionable intel. Another, at Gitmo, also endured enhanced interrogation -- cold was used on him, as well as humiliation.

But we'll never know if said advanced interrogation actually worked, right? So why use it then, if we're not even aware if it produces results?

[LnGrrrR]

Question:


Does good-cop/bad-cop work without the "bad" cop?

Yes.

[DarrinS]

But we'll never know if said advanced interrogation actually worked, right? So why use it then, if we're not even aware if it produces results?


Now that's a good question. Maybe the interrogators are just evil people that enjoy hurting people. There's got to be SOME reason they employ those techniques.

[DarrinS]

Yes.

Then why does good cop/bad cop even exist?

[MannyIsGod]

I'm not asking anyone to PROVE anything. I'm just saying that it's not a moral issue FOR ME. My concern is whether or not it is effective. If it's a complete waste of time, then I'm not for it.




I actually step away from my computer from time to time.

You still obviously don't understand burden of proof.

[LnGrrrR]

I have the right to change my opinion as new information becomes available. As for the whole "enhanced interrogation" business, if there is DATA that suggests that it is entirely ineffective, them I'm not an advocate for its continued use.

Didn't you say we'll never know? Then how can you ask for data?

And even if it isn't "entirely ineffective", that says nothing to the moral arguments against using it.

[Blake]

Then why does good cop/bad cop even exist?

lol too many youtube movies

[CosmicCowboy]

Then why does good cop/bad cop even exist?

mainly for Hollywood.

[ChumpDumper]

I'm not in a position to say if it did or didn't and neither are you. It could be the threat of going back for another round was finally enough. We just don't know.Darrin already tried this. He looked really stupid doing so. I can't believe you are going down the same road.

[MannyIsGod]

:lmao

[CosmicCowboy]

Darrin already tried this. He looked really stupid doing so. I can't believe you are going down the same road.

I really don't care one way or the other.

[LnGrrrR]

I'm not asking anyone to PROVE anything. I'm just saying that it's not a moral issue FOR ME. My concern is whether or not it is effective. If it's a complete waste of time, then I'm not for it.


Maybe you should ask yourself why that is the case. *shrug*

[lefty]

Don't shoot the messenger :D


UnychOXj9Tg

This was Benazir Bhutto, the hopeful FEMALE presidential candidate for Pakistan back in 2007. After she revealed that Osama Bin laden was apparently murdered and that the whole "War on Terror" was a farce, she was assassinated. Her killer was never found and it was made official that she was killed because she was a "female" running for president in an Islamic Country - and we all bought it.

Here is an excerpt from an article - www.opednews.com... (http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_len_hart_071231_bbc_censored_benazir.htm)

Bhutto herself has exposed the fraudulent nature of the Bush/Blair "war on terrorism". If Bin Laden is dead, as has been reported, then the various tapes that he is alleged to have made are all phony. The war on terrorism itself is a callous, calculated fraud perpetrated by a murderous Bush regime, a murderous Blair regime, a murderous puppet regime of Musharraf. That's why Bhutto was murdered.
She was the woman who knew too much. Bhutto exposed the fact that US policies cause terrorism and she stated the various ways in which groups inside the US and Britain benefited politically and materially from the phony war on phony terrorism, the failed war in Afghanistan, the war crime that is still perpetrated against the people of Iraq.
Bhutto posed a threat to the culprits in the Bush regime to include Bush himself. She posed a threat to the kiss ups in Musharraf's regime to include Musharraf and the liars who tried to float the incredible "lone lever" theory.

She was murdered. And the BBC has been caught censoring the most important piece of the puzzle.
I also like to state the fact that the Taliban wanted to give up Osama Bin Laden back in 2001 in effort to prevent an Invasion of Afghanistan. We all know how the story goes from then. www.guardian.co.uk... (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/oct/17/afghanistan.terrorism11)

A senior Taliban minister has offered a last-minute deal to hand over Osama bin Laden during a secret visit to Islamabad, senior sources in Pakistan told the Guardian last night. For the first time, the Taliban offered to hand over Bin Laden for trial in a country other than the US without asking to see evidence first in return for a halt to the bombing, a source close to Pakistan's military leadership said. But US officials appear to have dismissed the proposal and are instead hoping to engineer a split within the Taliban leadership.
My friends, we all have been duped. Even Wikipedia has been edited to remove any mention of Osama Bin laden being "supposedly killed" or dead anytime before 2nd May 2011.
en.wikipedia.org... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden#Activities_and_whereabouts_after_t he_September_11_attacks)

Plus to add to the fact, Bin Laden's body was immediately buried in the sea with no pictures taken of his dead body...And we're supposed to believe he is dead with no proof?

Even if he was killed on 2nd May 2011 as many of you may believe, I only fear what will happen next. Al Qaeda even threatened a Nuclear Hellstorm if Bin laden was killed. icwnews.com... (http://icwnews.com/hot-news/1790/wikileaks-al-qaida-has-nuclear-weapons.html)

I know not what the motives are of the US government, but I fear a nuclear threat is imminent in the near future which will undoubtedly lead to World War 3 with somehow Iran in the equation.




Source: IDK


Great post Lefty :tu

[LnGrrrR]

Now that's a good question. Maybe the interrogators are just evil people that enjoy hurting people. There's got to be SOME reason they employ those techniques.

Strawman.

They probably felt that, due to lack of personnel and time, torture would be a quicker/more effective means of gaining intel. Conventional interrogation takes time in order to earn the trust of the prisoners and break them down; torture doesn't require such.

[ChumpDumper]

Now that's a good question. Maybe the interrogators are just evil people that enjoy hurting people. There's got to be SOME reason they employ those techniques.Right. A bunch of lawyers and politicians thought it would work.

That's why they employed these techniques.

[LnGrrrR]

Then why does good cop/bad cop even exist?

Good cop/bad cop can work, but only because it gets the captive to trust the good cop, which is coincidentally also the aim of conventional interrogation.

Tell me, does bad cop/bad cop interrogation work?

[Winehole23]

Bush said we needed to, and that was enough for Darrin. Still is, looks like.

[Winehole23]

Bush must have had a very good reason.

[DarrinS]

Maybe you should ask yourself why that is the case. *shrug*


I'm sure there are a lot of things that the CIA, FBI, military, etc. do that your average citizen might find morally questionable. As long as they are doing it to very bad people and for the protection innocent people, I just don't lose sleep over it.

[MannyIsGod]

Oh, the bad people. Got it.

[DarrinS]

Right. A bunch of lawyers and politicians thought it would work.

That's why they employed these techniques.



Good thing Obama closed Gitmo and all those "black sites".

[ChumpDumper]

Eh, Darrin lies as easily as he breathes. There's no need to wonder about what he considers moral.

[Winehole23]

As long as they are doing it to very bad people and for the protection innocent people, I just don't lose sleep over it. We already know it was done to dozens of detainees freed on habeas appeals -- cases in which the courts found there was no credible legal basis for detaining them in the first place, let alone torturing them.

Care to reconsider?

[ChumpDumper]

Good thing Obama closed Gitmo and all those "black sites".Gitmo would be closed if Americans weren't such pussies.

And "black sites"? You are claiming factual knowledge of black sites now?

Tell us all how you know this to be a concrete fact.

[DarrinS]

We already know it was done to dozens of detainees freed on habeas appeals -- cases in which the courts found there was no credible legal basis for detaining them in the first place, let alone torturing them.

Care to reconsider?


Innocent people were killed in order to kill bin Laden. Shit happens.

[clambake]

the clown came back. lol

[ChumpDumper]

the clown came back. lolHe never said what he was lying about though.

[clambake]

He never said what he was lying about though.

lowlifes can't handle the damage.

[RandomGuy]

The Japanese military thought live vivisection of allied POWs was an effective way of gaining medical information.

They also saved the lives of their military by testing artillery shells and bioweapons on prisoners.

As long as we are debating what is effective, and setting aside the question of morality.

[RandomGuy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

I will spare you the imagery. It is not pleasant.

[RandomGuy]

It seems whole new vistas of potential information open up when you aren't concerned about such petty things like right and wrong. :wow

[LnGrrrR]

I'm sure there are a lot of things that the CIA, FBI, military, etc. do that your average citizen might find morally questionable. As long as they are doing it to very bad people and for the protection innocent people, I just don't lose sleep over it.

I'm sure they only get the guilty people, 100% of the time.

Also, no one innocent dies in wars; therefore we don't need to think about unintended casualties when we go to war.

[Winehole23]

Innocent people were killed in order to kill bin Laden. Shit happens.Couldn't disagree with you more. Our global prestige and our reputation as a square-dealer were innocent bystanders too, but got capped just the same.


Vive la difference.

[DarrinS]

I'm sure they only get the guilty people, 100% of the time.


Are there SOME cases where they are 100% SURE they have the right person?

[LnGrrrR]

Also, nothing is morally reprehensible as long as the person is guilty and may have info.

[DarrinS]

They were only 60-80% sure OBL was at that compound.

[Winehole23]

We also subjected our soldiers to torture, by putting harsh interrogation without clear guidelines or oversight, into their hands to administer. We made them torture people.


(burp)

[clambake]

They were only 60-80% sure OBL was at that compound.

and yet we're 100% sure that you lied.

[DarrinS]

Also, nothing is morally reprehensible as long as the person is guilty and may have info.


IMHO, enhanced interrogation has nothing on choosing to burn or jump 100 stories to your death, but that's just me.

[LnGrrrR]

Are there SOME cases where they are 100% SURE they have the right person?

For the sake of argument, sure. So they do what they have to. No need to make a law allowing it; let a jury decide if the person made the right decision.

Codifying it into law allows widespread usage of torture in cases where it isn't necessary, on people that may not be guilty.

[LnGrrrR]

IMHO, enhanced interrogation has nothing on choosing to burn or jump 100 stories to your death, but that's just me.

So as long as we are better than homicidal terrorists, we are in the right. :tu good logic, about what I'd expect from you.

[DarrinS]

For the sake of argument, sure. So they do what they have to. No need to make a law allowing it; let a jury decide if the person made the right decision.

Codifying it into law allows widespread usage of torture in cases where it isn't necessary, on people that may not be guilty.


Fair enough.

[DarrinS]

So as long as we are better than homicidal terrorists, we are in the right. :tu good logic, about what I'd expect from you.



America first.

[jack sommerset]

Obama just got re-elected.

LMFAO!!!! You're a fucking idiot cheerleading faggot for this guy. Stop it. Just fucking stop it!

[clambake]

where u been jack? lets talk oil bidness!

[LnGrrrR]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

I will spare you the imagery. It is not pleasant.

Thats horrible. What good is winning if you lose your soul in the process?

[jack sommerset]

I loved all the "I's" in Barrys speech about killing Osama.

[MannyIsGod]

LMFAO!!!! You're a fucking idiot cheerleading faggot for this guy. Stop it. Just fucking stop it!

What? I know you're illiterate but I've done nothing but pretty much criticize Obama for years now.

[DarrinS]

Get them while they're hot.


http://www.bikeweek.midfloridasportswear.com/daytona/obama.htm


http://www.bikeweek.midfloridasportswear.com/daytona/obama2.jpg

[RandomGuy]

They were only 60-80% sure OBL was at that compound.

Not according to the information that I saw. They positively confirmed it before going in.

[DarrinS]

Not according to the information that I saw. They positively confirmed it before going in.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/05/02/borger.ksm.bin.laden/index.html

[Blake]

I loved all the "I's" in Barrys speech about killing Osama.

I also loved W's 2003 speech where he stood on an aircraft carrier underneath a banner that said "Mission Accomplished"

[MannyIsGod]

If nothing else, I will say this. Had this country gone stupid and elected McCain Osama would still be alive.

[Creepn]

If nothing else, I will say this. Had this country gone stupid and elected McCain Osama would still be alive.

Very true. The man was set against going into Pakistan but wants to bomb bomb bomb Iran.

[DarrinS]

If nothing else, I will say this. Had this country gone stupid and elected McCain Osama would still be alive.


Why?

[MannyIsGod]

What did McCain say about Pakistan, Darrin?

[Stringer_Bell]

I loved all the "I's" in Barrys speech about killing Osama.

I didn't think that Obama's "I" and "my" usage was done to take credit away from anyone, it was to tell those Islamofascists - "hey faggots, it's obama here. that nigga osama called the hit on NYC, i called the hit on him. we been lurking, but it was time to shut his ass down for good. step off, suck the d."...basically.

[Stringer_Bell]

oh, and Mccain would have had a heart attack in the OBL Raid room. That shit would have been too intense, even for most healthy people.

[DarrinS]

What did McCain say about Pakistan, Darrin?


I think McCain would have probably followed the same foreign policy as Bush, which is exactly what Obama did.

[DarrinS]

oh, and Mccain would have had a heart attack in the OBL Raid room. That shit would have been too intense, even for most healthy people.


That's just silly.

[RandomGuy]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/05/02/borger.ksm.bin.laden/index.html


This source said that CIA analysts rated the probability of bin Laden living at the house at between 60-80%.

(shrugs)

A lot of conflicting accounts going around, as the news organizations try to fill stories, I guess.

My memory of what I read says that they had id'ed him before they went in using DNA, but I would guess that the reporter got it wrong. Or (gasp) my memory might be wrong, either way, I stand corrected.

[RandomGuy]

I think McCain would have probably followed the same foreign policy as Bush, which is exactly what Obama did.

Oddly enough, after about 6 years or so of unilateralism, Bush started getting the hang of it. Unfortunately, those 6 years soured so many relations that reversing course wasn't quite possible.

The last 2 years of Bush foreign policy started hitting the right tone, IMO. Much as I disliked a lot of things he did, I have always given him that.

Obama has done some modestly different things, but you are essentially correct.

What has changed was the world appreciated the American people's repudiation of Bush by electing a Democrat, among other things, and this markedly improved a lot of working relationships almost instantly.

The effect has worn somewhat in the interim, but it seems that Obama, at least on several fronts, benefitted from Bush groundwork.

[Axe Murderer]

I was watching CSI Miami when it happened. Why couldn't Obama have waited like 10 to 15 minutes? His speech cut off the ending of CSI Miami. I wanted to know if Jan from The Office was the killer. I bet a lot of old people were pissed that Barry had to cut into CSI Miami.
First off, I think this whole Bin Laden being dead thing is suspicious. They destroyed pretty much most of the evidence of the raid including Bin Laden's body. And why the fuck was that piece of shit given a Muslim funeral? Who the fuck cares if he gets a funeral? Did Tim McVeigh get a funeral after he was executed? Nope. Whether or not if it really happened, this really helps Barry in a lot of ways. It may have sealed the deal on his re-election. However, I do think it's possible that he may have played this card too early. For the record, I believe that terrorists especially pieces of shit like Osam don't deserve funerals. And I also think it was stupid for Osama to be killed. What about all the information that the CIA could have gotten from him if he had caved and gave them information?

So how long will this current Obama lovefest happen? And isn't it funny how this shit makes people forget about how fucked up the economy is and how hard it is to get a job right now? And everyone's pretty much forgotten about the tornado victims in Alabama and other parts of the south.

:lol another classic from this guy

[ChumpDumper]

I think McCain would have probably followed the same foreign policy as Bush, which is exactly what Obama did.You're wrong.

[DarrinS]

Waterboarding didn't work.

Live with that, Darrin. Just live with it.






KSM had been waterboarded before giving this info. There's no telling one way or another if waterboarding was effective. None of us really knows what went on.






KSM didn't crack while being waterboarded 183 times...but EIT may have worked because KSM gave information during routine interrogation, months later.

Now you're just piling absurdities on top of careless misrepresentations.







The people who did it knew what went on. That's how they can say which technique got the information. You gave us an article that says so.

Why is it so important for you to cling to your lies and stupidly wrong assertions even after you destroy your own argument with something you thought was helping you?

You were wrong.

Waterboarding didn't get this information.

That's it.

Trying to deny that makes you as pathetic as any birther or truther.








Glad you finally admitted your support of torture is faith-based, rather than empirical or rational. As you well know, science excludes unfalsifiables.

So much for "we'll never know" being a vindication of the efficacy of torture.






http://www.nationaljournal.com/nationalsecurity/holder-don-t-know-if-waterboarding-led-to-bin-laden-20110503


Holder: Don't Know If Waterboarding Led to bin Laden
By Sara Sorcher





Although Attorney General Eric Holder on Tuesday commended the U.S. operation that killed Osama bin Laden, he said he didn't know whether any of the information that led to bin Laden's death was gleaned during "enhanced interrogation techniques" such as waterboarding.

Holder, a longtime opponent of keeping the Guantanamo Bay prison open, was asked whether lawmakers could be assured that the intelligence that led to bin Laden's killing was not the result of waterboarding and other methods used under the George W. Bush administration to extract information from inmates.

"There was a mosaic of sources that lead to the identification of the people" that ultimately led to al-Qaida's leader, Holder told the House Judiciary Committee.

When asked if "any" enhanced interrogation techniques directly led to bin Laden's killing, Holder simply replied: "I do not know."


In a startling reversal of policy last month, President Obama ordered a military commission at Guantanamo Bay to try Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the self-proclaimed mastermind of the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks--despite the administration's (and Holder's) push to bring Mohammed to trial in New York City. Efforts to close Guantanamo have faltered as well and the prison is enjoying an unexpected second life under the Obama administration, which had decried the prison and its previous interrogation techniques as unethical and an embarrassment to the United States.

Holder, on Tuesday, said that his position on military commissions is often "mischaracterized," adding that, "especially because they have been modified," military commissions are "constitutional [and] can give fair trials."

Holder warned that the government and law-enforcement agencies cannot become “complacent” because of the possibility of retaliatory attacks. “The fight [against terrorism] is far from over…. Just yesterday I ordered the [Justice] Department's prosecutors and law-enforcement agencies to be mindful that bin Laden's death could result in retaliatory acts in the United States or against our interests overseas.”

Bin Laden’s killing was the result of a “steadfast, almost decadelong effort,” Holder said, which has been “at the forefront of our work” in which the Justice Department played a vital role. “Osama bin Laden has been brought to justice,” he added.

Last year, Holder told Congressthat it's unlikely bin Laden would be captured alive. "We will be reading Miranda rights to the corpse of Osama bin Laden," he said.

When asked Tuesday whether it was legal to take action in Pakistan against bin Laden, Holder said he thought the operation was "both lawful, legitimate, and appropriate in every way." The U.S. decision makers "handled themselves, I think, quite well," he said.

[DarrinS]

You're wrong.

It's called an opinion, you ignorant fuck.

[coyotes_geek]

:corn:

[clambake]

It's called an opinion, you ignorant fuck.

stop backpedaling from your lie, mr. birther.