Why was POP/FO the only team going wrong way?

[JonNOKC]

One thing that I I never really understood was Pop/RC (who regularly receive praise from their peers) basically choosing to go towards less defense, while the rest of the NBA contenders understood what it takes to win championships - pretty much following the formula the Spurs created.

The Pop supporters will immediately say that he had to adapt to the players we had, but that is not entirely the case. The FO chose to extend Bonner, resign RJ, sign Quinn, draft Blair, etc. The Big 3 are all at least capable defenders with TD being above avg. - not to mention we saw other contenders make moves not only in off season but at trade deadline.

Dallas gets Chandler (and even going to prev year Haywood), OKC goes for Perkins/Nazi, Memphis already had size and good defense but adds Battier, and others made moves as well.

The only size we add is Tiago - who Pop fails to integrate into system and waits till game 4 to finally use. I somewhat understand Pop not playing Splitter once he was healthy as we were winning games and chemistry is good, but I think as a leader of team/business/organization you have to constantly look for ways to make yourself better because you can bet your competition is.

Anyway - sorry for long post - I guess what I can't understand is how do you forget the recipe for success when you were the ones who created it?

[Fireball]

It was interesting how Pop told everyone during the regular season how the team had to improve defensively ... and at some point he just said that they will not get much better defensively. He had some hope but with that personnel it did not happen.

[SenorSpur]

One thing that I I never really understood was Pop/RC (who regularly receive praise from their peers) basically choosing to go towards less defense, while the rest of the NBA contenders understood what it takes to win championships - pretty much following the formula the Spurs created.

The Pop supporters will immediately say that he had to adapt to the players we had, but that is not entirely the case. The FO chose to extend Bonner, resign RJ, sign Quinn, draft Blair, etc. The Big 3 are all at least capable defenders with TD being above avg. - not to mention we saw other contenders make moves not only in off season but at trade deadline.

Dallas gets Chandler (and even going to prev year Haywood), OKC goes for Perkins/Nazi, Memphis already had size and good defense but adds Battier, and others made moves as well.

The only size we add is Tiago - who Pop fails to integrate into system and waits till game 4 to finally use. I somewhat understand Pop not playing Splitter once he was healthy as we were winning games and chemistry is good, but I think as a leader of team/business/organization you have to constantly look for ways to make yourself better because you can bet your competition is.

Anyway - sorry for long post - I guess what I can't understand is how do you forget the recipe for success when you were the ones who created it?

It's a totally legitimate question - and one that I've posed in other threads. Pop coached and lived through the formula for the Spurs championship success. A stout defense, solid interior play and an inside-out game featuring a HOF big man. Now that that big man is in decline, the FO has failed to address the issue of size. The FO failed to provide Duncan with the kind of help needed to offset his heavy workload.

Obviously, HOF-type big men don't grow on trees, but for Pop to totally abandon the winning philosophy to go small and to a perimeter-oriented style was just short-sighted.

All of which leads me to ask, what was Pop thinking?

[JonNOKC]

It's a totally legitimate question - and one that I've posed in other threads. Pop coached and lived through the formula for the Spurs championship success. A stout defense, solid interior play and an inside-out game featuring a HOF big man. Now that that big man is in decline, the FO has failed to address the issue of size. The FO failed to provide Duncan with the kind of help needed to offset his heavy workload.

Obviously, HOF-type big men don't grow on trees, but for Pop to totally abandon the winning philosophy to go small and to a perimeter-oriented style was just short-sighted.

All of which leads me to ask, what was Pop thinking?

I think most Spurs fans realize we aren't going to be able to go get a Dwight Howard or even a Marc Gasol, but we could certainly get someone with legitimate size to play next to Duncan, and at least 1 legit big (by big at least 6'10 240 with a some athleticism) I know you have been a steady supporter of size/defense - what makes it tougher is that the other contenders FO/coaching staff understood this

[Harry Callahan]

Pop did not want to play this way if he had the personnel to play better D with bigger guys.

His plan worked pretty well but Duncan and Gino getting hurt put too much pressure on everyone else to produce.

Trust me, Pop would have loved to go big and play tough D, but he did not have the opportunity to get enough quality bigs.

This is the problem when you don't have any high #1 picks for the last 13 years. You have to play the hand you are dealt.

[JonNOKC]

Pop did not want to play this way if he had the personnel to play better D with bigger guys.

His plan worked pretty well but Duncan and Gino getting hurt put too much pressure on everyone else to produce.

Trust me, Pop would have loved to go big and play tough D, but he did not have the opportunity to get enough quality bigs.

This is the problem when you don't have any high #1 picks for the last 13 years. You have to play the hand you are dealt.

Don't buy it - he could of made it more priority to play Splitter for one - bottom line is he had to know Bonner/Blair would get abused in playoffs - not to mention having no one at the basket to be a shot altering big when TD is on bench - playoffs not reg season, teams are ore focused, take better shots, and value each possession - we know Pop plays big part in FO decision making - they chose to extend Bonner and make original trade for RJ, so if he lacked the players necessary - some fault is on Pop (and I am not a Pop hater)

[SpurOutofTownFan]

I don't buy the concept of everything was ok until timmy and manu got hurt. you can't base your success in one or two guys, it will take a team to win the championship aside from injuries that will force you to be out for the reminder of the playoffs.

The spurs have realistically suffered from lack of big help since 2005 and they haven't addressed it. yes, as far as 2005 - 2007 was won against a poor Cavs team with only one superstar and TP playing at a high level.

But seriously, we are in 2011 and the last good big the Spurs had was Nazr???

What a way to waste Duncan's best years.

[SenorSpur]

I think most Spurs fans realize we aren't going to be able to go get a Dwight Howard or even a Marc Gasol, but we could certainly get someone with legitimate size to play next to Duncan, and at least 1 legit big (by big at least 6'10 240 with a some athleticism) I know you have been a steady supporter of size/defense - what makes it tougher is that the other contenders FO/coaching staff understood this

It's actually long overdue. The Fakers underwent their massive size upgrade, courtesy of the Pau Gasol trade, back in 2008. A trade that literally changed the balance of power in the West. That was 3 years ago. Over that period of time, several of the western conference contenders got the message and responded accordingly.

The Thunder traded a promising, young PF Jeff Green, to acquire Kendrick Perkins, to go along with the insertion of Serge Ibaka in the starting lineup. The Mavs acquired Brendon Haywood one year, and acquired Tyson Chandler the next. That's an instant size upgrade. The Grizzlies secured long-term extensions to both Marc Gasol and Zach Randolph. They only led the NBA in points-in-the-paint and just by coincidence, just exposed and ousted our Spurs in a first-round upset.

In the meantime, what have the Spurs done? Initially, Pop uncharacteristically bitched and moaned publically about the unfairness of the Gasol trade. Instead of bitching about it, perhaps he should've paid more attention toward upgrading the size of his own roster. He allowed a 6'11" big (Mahinmi) to walk, resigns a one-dimensional stretch-4 (Bonner), signs a former first round pick, a 6'11" Brazilian center (Splitter), which he kept chained to the bench most of the season. All the while, he simultaneously changed his offensive philosophy from to a perimeter-oriented style, which was predicated on small-ball lineups and the 3-ball as the primary offensive option. What's wrong with this picture?

Meanwhile, his future HOF big man (Duncan), just turned 35 and is STILL the best big man on the roster, and still charged with manning both ends of the floor with little help. What's wrong with this picture?

Even the Blazers, who already sport Marcus Camby and LaMarcus Aldridige, along their frontlien, have recognized their size deficienc. In light of them having to ship out former starting center, Joel Pyrzbilla, in the Gerald Wallace trade. they have firmly stated their intentions to aggressively seek to upgrade their size over the offseason.

Every western conference contender has seemingly gotten the message - except the Spurs. On the contrary, perhaps Pop is finally getting it. In his end-of-regular season press conference, Pop made a vague reference to the Grizzlies exploiting their size advantage. Huh? Are you kidding me? Now he's getting the message? The problem is he's about 3 years too late. 3 precious years off Duncan's career have evaporated, while the coach sat idle and did nothing.

While it's virtually impossible any team to equally match the Fakers size. However in order to give your team the best chance to overthrow the champs, you cannot contend with an undersized, aged frontline - which is precisely what the Spurs have rolled out the past couple of years. After all, the Fakers only have 3 straight NBA Finals appearances and 2 consecutive titles to show for their troubles. It seems to me that, THIS is the team you need to match up against. Going small, doesn't cut it.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Pop did not want to play this way if he had the personnel to play better D with bigger guys.

His plan worked pretty well but Duncan and Gino getting hurt put too much pressure on everyone else to produce.

Trust me, Pop would have loved to go big and play tough D, but he did not have the opportunity to get enough quality bigs.

This is the problem when you don't have any high #1 picks for the last 13 years. You have to play the hand you are dealt.

If Pop played the hand he was dealt, Splitter wouldn't have been glued to the bench all season.

[ChumpDumper]

Mahinmilol

[FromWayDowntown]

The Thunder traded a promising, young PF Jeff Green, to acquire Kendrick Perkins, to go along with the insertion of Serge Ibaka in the starting lineup.

What asset do the Spurs have (or have they had) that even closely resembles a 25 year old lottery pick who averaged 15 ppg and 6 rpg?


The Mavs acquired Brendon Haywood one year, and acquired Tyson Chandler the next. That's an instant size upgrade.

What 18 ppg scorer have the Spurs had to package in a deal to bring back guys like Haywood and Caron Butler, as Dallas did with Josh Howard? What expiring contracts like Erick Dampier's massive deal have the Spurs had to dangle in front of teams to get a guy like Tyson Chandler?


The Grizzlies secured long-term extensions to both Marc Gasol and Zach Randolph.

After having given up Pau Gasol to get Marc and having taken on Randolph as a problem child. And unless something has changed in the last hour, Gasol's deal expires after this season.


Even the Blazers, who already sport Marcus Camby and LaMarcus Aldridige, along their frontlien, have recognized their size deficienc. In light of them having to ship out former starting center, Joel Pyrzbilla, in the Gerald Wallace trade. they have firmly stated their intentions to aggressively seek to upgrade their size over the offseason.

The Spurs bid on Pryzbilla in the summer of 2006, offering the biggest deal they possibly could to him, but he took more money to stay in Portland. And I'd be interested to know what asset they have that can remotely equate to Gerald Wallace to have gone after him again.

The Spurs didn't have capspace to take on Camby's massive deal when Denver sent him away by firesale at a time when it was looking to shed contracts and didn't want to take on players. The Spurs still took a run at Camby in 2009 when he was with the Clippers, only to come up short at the deadline (and, by the way, Spurs fans freaked out (at the time) that the FO would even think of dealing off George Hill for Camby . . . .).

My point is that you have to have something to get something and short of the Big 3, the Spurs haven't had much of anything to entice teams to deal with them -- not players, not picks, not space, not prospects. Those problems, of course, tend to be the byproducts of long-term success. Even with that, it's simply wrong to say that the Spurs have wholly ignored the problem, given their established efforts to get Pryzbilla and Camby (among others). There's a difference between trying and coming up short and not trying at all.

[SenorSpur]

My point is that you have to have something to get something and short of the Big 3, the Spurs haven't had much of anything to entice teams to deal with them -- not players, not picks, not space, not prospects. Those problems, of course, tend to be the byproducts of long-term success. Even with that, it's simply wrong to say that the Spurs have wholly ignored the problem, given their established efforts to get Pryzbilla and Camby (among others). There's a difference between trying and coming up short and not trying at all.

I totally get your point. You're not going to get every player you go after. However sometimes making the incorrect decisions can just can be even more disastrous as swinging and missing on a player target.

Two summers ago, the Spurs FO made a conscious decision to go over the cap two summers ago in a bold move in an effort to try and secure title #5. Bold moves were made that netted both RJ and later Dice. Those were aggressive moves that were and should've been applauded. No one can or should quibble with that. However, after one year of seeing how bad of a fit RJ was and after 3 years of watching Bonner suck, the inexplicable decision was last summer made to re-up both. There was no mystery there. That was just idiotic.

My point there is that was a huge amount of salary tied up in two non-performing players. Money that perhaps could've been better spent on a player or two that would've help achieve the objective we're discussing.

The hallmark of any good GM is the ability to make smart decisions and select personnel that fits the organizational philosophy. Everybody makes mistakes. When those occur, it's important to recognize and correct. Choosing to ignore the mistake only compounds the isse.

In the end, the FO is judged on whether or not they they've fielded a team that has a realistic chance on winning a title. That is barometer of success during the Tim Duncan era.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

after all that has been said and done - unfortunately everything is turning to the point where in order to get massive help with the bigs the spurs will have to part ways with one of the big 3s, because frankly that's the only thing they have that has real value. I would say it's probably Parker as both Duncan and Manu make more money for the franchise overall and bring the most fans around.

If TP is traded then I can see something serious happening next year and some of these trade options that have been thrown around might actually happen. Other than that, the only other viable option is to throw some of the other precious assets the Spurs might have, the likes of Splitter, Neal, Hill or Blair which I think it could be a mistake.

Bottom line is and I reiterate, the Spurs haven't dealt properly with this issue since 2005, 6 years ago, when Duncan was 29.

[jjktkk]

Pop did not want to play this way if he had the personnel to play better D with bigger guys.

His plan worked pretty well but Duncan and Gino getting hurt put too much pressure on everyone else to produce.

Trust me, Pop would have loved to go big and play tough D, but he did not have the opportunity to get enough quality bigs.

This is the problem when you don't have any high #1 picks for the last 13 years. You have to play the hand you are dealt.

This.

[jjktkk]

It's actually long overdue. The Fakers underwent their massive size upgrade, courtesy of the Pau Gasol trade, back in 2008. A trade that literally changed the balance of power in the West. That was 3 years ago. Over that period of time, several of the western conference contenders got the message and responded accordingly.

The Thunder traded a promising, young PF Jeff Green, to acquire Kendrick Perkins, to go along with the insertion of Serge Ibaka in the starting lineup. The Mavs acquired Brendon Haywood one year, and acquired Tyson Chandler the next. That's an instant size upgrade. The Grizzlies secured long-term extensions to both Marc Gasol and Zach Randolph. They only led the NBA in points-in-the-paint and just by coincidence, just exposed and ousted our Spurs in a first-round upset.

In the meantime, what have the Spurs done? Initially, Pop uncharacteristically bitched and moaned publically about the unfairness of the Gasol trade. Instead of bitching about it, perhaps he should've paid more attention toward upgrading the size of his own roster. He allowed a 6'11" big (Mahinmi) to walk, resigns a one-dimensional stretch-4 (Bonner), signs a former first round pick, a 6'11" Brazilian center (Splitter), which he kept chained to the bench most of the season. All the while, he simultaneously changed his offensive philosophy from to a perimeter-oriented style, which was predicated on small-ball lineups and the 3-ball as the primary offensive option. What's wrong with this picture?

Meanwhile, his future HOF big man (Duncan), just turned 35 and is STILL the best big man on the roster, and still charged with manning both ends of the floor with little help. What's wrong with this picture?

Even the Blazers, who already sport Marcus Camby and LaMarcus Aldridige, along their frontlien, have recognized their size deficienc. In light of them having to ship out former starting center, Joel Pyrzbilla, in the Gerald Wallace trade. they have firmly stated their intentions to aggressively seek to upgrade their size over the offseason.

Every western conference contender has seemingly gotten the message - except the Spurs. On the contrary, perhaps Pop is finally getting it. In his end-of-regular season press conference, Pop made a vague reference to the Grizzlies exploiting their size advantage. Huh? Are you kidding me? Now he's getting the message? The problem is he's about 3 years too late. 3 precious years off Duncan's career have evaporated, while the coach sat idle and did nothing.

While it's virtually impossible any team to equally match the Fakers size. However in order to give your team the best chance to overthrow the champs, you cannot contend with an undersized, aged frontline - which is precisely what the Spurs have rolled out the past couple of years. After all, the Fakers only have 3 straight NBA Finals appearances and 2 consecutive titles to show for their troubles. It seems to me that, THIS is the team you need to match up against. Going small, doesn't cut it.

You will never get over Mahmni will you.? Haywood's has a huge contract and he doesn't even start. How could of the Spurs obtained Chandler, Perkins? Randolph was a selfish thug who nobody wanted, but Memphis. It seems after several seasons, that Randolph has finally seen the light. And speaking of OKC beefing up their frontline, how did it look the other night against Memphis? Have you considered, given the Spur's ownership's buget, and the Spur's picking in the low 1st and 2nd rounds for over a decade, how the Spurs can obtain a starting caliber 4/5? What possible star caliber player really wants to come to San Antonio?

[TJastal]

You will never get over Mahmni will you.? Haywood's has a huge contract and he doesn't even start. How could of the Spurs obtained Chandler, Perkins? Randolph was a selfish thug who nobody wanted, but Memphis. It seems after several seasons, that Randolph has finally seen the light. And speaking of OKC beefing up their frontline, how did it look the other night against Memphis? Have you considered, given the Spur's ownership's buget, and the Spur's picking in the low 1st and 2nd rounds for over a decade, how the Spurs can obtain a starting caliber 4/5? What possible star caliber player really wants to come to San Antonio?

No were not going to shut up about Mahinmi. Here's why-

Mahinmi outplayed Brenda several times this season, and his stats on a per minute basis were virtually identical (actually Mahinmi shot 70%+ at the FT line compared to Brenda's 30%.

If you ask me, the only reason Carlsile is playing Brenda now is because he realizes he's going to be with the team a LONG time (5 more years of bloated Jefferson type $$). I guarantee you if he could dump Brenda's salary & contract right now and move Ian into that spot he would do it in a heartbeat.
Ian is making 9X less than Brenda and put up similar numbers to Brenda.

[SenorSpur]

You will never get over Mahmni will you.? Haywood's has a huge contract and he doesn't even start. How could of the Spurs obtained Chandler, Perkins? Randolph was a selfish thug who nobody wanted, but Memphis. It seems after several seasons, that Randolph has finally seen the light. And speaking of OKC beefing up their frontline, how did it look the other night against Memphis? Have you considered, given the Spur's ownership's buget, and the Spur's picking in the low 1st and 2nd rounds for over a decade, how the Spurs can obtain a starting caliber 4/5? What possible star caliber player really wants to come to San Antonio?

You're mising the point, as usual. I'm not suggesting the Spurs had a chance at any of these players. Those are all merely just examples of the how the other contenders responded to the Western Conference "arms" race, that was spurred on by the Gasol trade.

Trades and free agency are not the only ways to upgrade roster size.

[SenorSpur]

You're mising the point, as usual. I'm not suggesting the Spurs had a chance at any of these players. Those are all merely just examples of the how the other contenders responded to the Western Conference "arms" race, that was spurred on by the Gasol trade.

Trades and free agency are not the only ways to upgrade roster size.

And for the record, given the choice of re-upping Bonner to a 4-yr extension, just for the pleasure of watching him get routinely abused on the defensive, while choking away wide-open 3's on the offensive end, I'd take my chances on Mahinmi every time. IMO it would make much more sense throwing him in as a backup big to combat a very physical frontline, like Memphis, than a one-dimensional 3-pt shooter, and historcal playoff choker.

Ian may still be an unknown, but we already know what Bonner is and more importanly what he isn't.

[ChumpDumper]

lol Ian

[Obstructed_View]

lol centers playing center.

[ChumpDumper]

Ian actually playing center....

[TJastal]

lol Ian

lol Bonner's oil boy

[rmt]

Spurs didn't have to go out and get any one. They already had Ian and Splitter. The fact that they re-signed Bonner and had Splitter rotting on the bench emphasized the mis-calculation (insanity, lunacy, whatever you want to call it) of Pop giving up on size. A line-up of Duncan, Splitter, Dice and Ian would have looked a damn sight better against MEM than TD, Dice, Bonner and Blair.

And if DAL should happen to beat LA, there'll be even more what-ifs. Pop has just totally messed up with all the big men he's drafted (in recent years) - Scola, Ian and Splitter - virtually handing 2 of them to division rivals.

[DesignatedT]

lol comparing Ian to Brenda. They both are terrible.

[ChumpDumper]

lol Bonner's oil boyIt's funny. You can't really find any posts of mine actively lobbying for Bonner to play the amount he played. Most of the time I was making fun of insane haters like you who couldn't get their facts straight or just outright lied in their "objective takes."

You're a joke.

[TJastal]

Spurs didn't have to go out and get any one. They already had Ian and Splitter. The fact that they re-signed Bonner and had Splitter rotting on the bench emphasized the mis-calculation (insanity, lunacy, whatever you want to call it) of Pop giving up on size. A line-up of Duncan, Splitter, Dice and Ian would have looked a damn sight better against MEM than TD, Dice, Bonner and Blair.

Oh fuck ya... THREE 7 footers + Dice (who can guard bigger guys) .. yah that would have worked nicely.

[ChumpDumper]

lol Ian

[SenorSpur]

As if the current rotation of bigs is getting it done.

[ChumpDumper]

As if Ian is playing games.

[TJastal]

It's funny. You can't really find any posts of mine actively lobbying for Bonner to play the amount he played. Most of the time I was making fun of insane haters like you who couldn't get their facts straight or just outright lied in their "objective takes."

You're a joke.

Seems to me your the one who actively lobbied against Ian playing and/or resigning, scoffed at ppl who were critical of the Bonner / RJ contracts, scoffed when people suggested earlier in the year that Pop wasn't using Splitter enough.

Now that its all blown up in your face you still strut around here like your hot shit nit-picking everyone's posts you don't like. Fucking pathetic really.

[ChumpDumper]

Seems to me your the one who actively lobbied against Ian playing and/or resigning, scoffed at ppl who were critical of the Bonner / RJ contracts, scoffed when people suggested earlier in the year that Pop wasn't using Splitter enough.Sure it "seems" that way to you because you are blinded by hate. You simply believe what you want to believe.


Ian gets a few minutes this season, then is left off the playoff roster and you formulate a grand conspiracy to try to bolster your belief that Ian is a better basketball player than he actually is.

That's how you work. You're delusional. I scoff at you because you are a fool who fools yourself.

[TJastal]

Sure it "seems" that way to you because you are blinded by hate. You simply believe what you want to believe.


Ian gets a few minutes this season, then is left off the playoff roster and you formulate a grand conspiracy to try to bolster your belief that Ian is a better basketball player than he actually is.

That's how you work. You're delusional.

A few? Try 487 minutes, approx 3X as many minutes as he got in SA. And that's with Chandler & Brenda on the team.

If I were a gambling man, I'd say Ian Mahinmi will be a good chance to become a reliable backup/rotation/starter in this league sometime within the next couple years.

[ChumpDumper]

A few? Try 487 minutes, approx 3X as many minutes as he got in SA. And that's with Chandler & Brenda on the team.Right. Then he didn't play.

If I were a gambling man, I'd say Ian Mahinmi will be a good chance to become a reliable backup/rotation/starter in this league sometime within the next couple years.WTF kind of bet is that? You certainly aren't a gambling man when you hedge that ridiculously.

[TJastal]

Right. Then he didn't play.
WTF kind of bet is that? You certainly aren't a gambling man when you hedge that ridiculously.

You all say Ian sucks and isn't deserving of a roster spot. Should be easy money for y'all.

:lol

[ChumpDumper]

You all say Ian sucks and isn't deserving of a roster spot. Should be easy money for y'all.

:lolI understand why you have to lie.

[rmt]

SenorSpur, you forgot to mention (in your long post) that even with LA's great length, they went out and got even more length, Ratliff, who Pop shipped out mid-season and who played well for the Bobcats.

Imagine - TD, Splitter, Dice, Ian, Ratliff instead of TD, Dice, Bonner and Blair.

[jjktkk]

SenorSpur, you forgot to mention (in your long post) that even with LA's great length, they went out and got even more length, Ratliff, who Pop shipped out mid-season and who played well for the Bobcats.

Imagine - TD, Splitter, Dice, Ian, Ratliff instead of TD, Dice, Bonner and Blair.

So what you would like is for players like Ratliiff and Mahimni to sit at the end of the Spurs bench? Is that cause it looks real cool and impressive to have 7 footers on the bench, regardless if the 7 footers can play?

[jjktkk]

A few? Try 487 minutes, approx 3X as many minutes as he got in SA. And that's with Chandler & Brenda on the team.

If I were a gambling man, I'd say Ian Mahinmi will be a good chance to become a reliable backup/rotation/starter in this league sometime within the next couple years.

8 years and counting. You and objective really do have a keen eye for talent. :lol

[jjktkk]

You're mising the point, as usual. I'm not suggesting the Spurs had a chance at any of these players. Those are all merely just examples of the how the other contenders responded to the Western Conference "arms" race, that was spurred on by the Gasol trade.

Trades and free agency are not the only ways to upgrade roster size.

And as usual, you never answer my question when you go off about the Spurs FO's inability to obtain a quality big, to pair with Duncan. I'll ask again, who could of the Spurs realistically obtained, giving the restrictions that are in place for the Spurs?

[DesignatedT]

[/B]

8 years and counting. You and objective really do have a keen eye for talent. :lol

Same shit all over again. In 2009 he was also the #1 roger mason fan on the web and continuously trashed Pop for playing Bogans claiming "Bogans wouldn't play or contribute on any other team in the NBA, only for a senile Popovich" While Pop held the golden key on the bench in Roger Mason.

[ploto]

The Spurs made the decision a few years ago that the league was going away from the traditional center and so they built a line-up accordingly. Unfortunately, they failed to notice that the pendulum had swung back and the top teams have size again.

[Obstructed_View]

I guess what I can't understand is how do you forget the recipe for success when you were the ones who created it?

You answered your own question. The Spurs didn't create the concept of size and defense, but they certainly seem to think they did. When suffering from that kind of hubris, it's probably easy to think you can just come up with a new "formula" for winning. Unfortunately there's only been one.

[TJastal]

8 years and counting. You and objective really do have a keen eye for talent. :lol

Mahinmi was a stick thin 19 year old when he was drafted 6 years ago, and he's barely 24 years old now. Essentially he's the same age as a rookie now. He's going to be an impact player very soon and the spurs should have held onto him because he's exactly what the team needs at a fraction of the cost of a big man with his size/skillset.

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/4755/ac106rednecktoilet.jpg
(pic of jjktkk talkin' buckets with his cousin Cletus)

[Hoops Czar]

What asset do the Spurs have (or have they had) that even closely resembles a 25 year old lottery pick who averaged 15 ppg and 6 rpg?


George Hill. He might not average 15 and 6 a game, but he is more than capable. If the Spurs can package him for a bigger piece, then its time to send Hill packing. His defense has progressively gotten worst each season and his offense output is sporadic at best. He's peaked.

[ElNono]

My point is that you have to have something to get something and short of the Big 3, the Spurs haven't had much of anything to entice teams to deal with them -- not players, not picks, not space, not prospects.

To be completely honest, they had the chance to trade RJ before last season ended, and also the option not to resign him and retain the cap space to find another piece midway through the season. Same thing with Bonner, who was an expiring last season. McDyess was another asset that could've been moved. They're not huge numbers, but they're decent numbers that put together would have given them some flexibility if that's what they wanted.

The Spurs should also blame themselves up to an extent for the lack of flexibility, when they started offering player options on the last year of quite a few vet contracts (Finley, McDyess, RJ) instead of what the bulk of teams do which is to have partially guaranteed/team options.

All in all, I'm fairly convinced the Spurs just simply thought that what they had was the best they could get at the time, for the style of play they wanted to put out there.

[rmt]

So what you would like is for players like Ratliiff and Mahimni to sit at the end of the Spurs bench? Is that cause it looks real cool and impressive to have 7 footers on the bench, regardless if the 7 footers can play?

The 5 pts/ 4 rebs/ 1.5 blks in 22 mins with intimidation in the lane that Ratliff gave the Bobcats surely looked a damn sight better than Bonner's 6.3 pt/ 3.2 reb/ .2 blk and his "give it to whoever Bonner is guarding" in 21 mins against MEM. He is #18 on the NBA all-time block leader - that's 1 spot ahead of KG.

And yes, I'd take Ian's 3.1pts/ 2.1 rebs/ 0.3 blk in only 8.7 mins over Bonner.

You surely can't think that either Ratliff or Ian would do a worse job defending Randolph/Gasol than Bonner did.


The Spurs made the decision a few years ago that the league was going away from the traditional center and so they built a line-up accordingly. Unfortunately, they failed to notice that the pendulum had swung back and the top teams have size again.

Bingo. Such short-sightedness - the moment Gasol was traded to LA they should have started stock-piling bigs but no, they were stuck on Dirk and PHX.

LA - Gasol/Bynum/Odom/Ratliff
OKC - Ibaka/Perkins/Nazr
DAL - Chandler/Dirk/Heywood/Ian
MEM - Randolph/Gasol/Arthur

Notice the difference.

SAS - TD/Dice/Bonner/Blair

What a disservice to TD to go up against those kinds of big men without any "real" (size) help. What's really sad is that Splitter/Ratliff/Ian are all big men that the Spurs had in their hands and didn't use in favor of Bonner.

[portnoy1]

Their are 2 reasons why the Spurs haven't gotten a Solid shot blocking center or a have played mobile tall PF.

1 - Defensively, Tim cant play against PF's today like Dirk, Odom, Bosh since those guys are mobile and put the ball on the floor. But if he did their would have to be a traditional 7-1 300lb center in the lane taking up space and blocking shots to cover when Duncan or anyone from the Spurs gets beat. Thats pretty much common knowledge though. Look at the Lakers, its worked well for them

2 - This reason gets overlooked alot. If you get a solid bynum-sized center, or play a mobile defensive PF (Splitter) to play next to duncan then that hurts parker on the offensive end since those type players normally cant shoot. Since the 08-09 season, the offense has revolved more and more around Parker and less on Duncan. Parker can get into lane alot easier with space, and his passing game is only effective when he is in the lane, because as we all know he is not a pure playmaker. Because of that Guys like Bonner,Dice will get alot of playing time with Parker because they allow him room to operate without having to work to hard and it also simplifies the offense for him so he doesnt have to work to hard to make decisions. In the Championship years Duncan was alot more involved and could do more damage. Parker however is now the Spurs most consistent scorer and alot of the lineups put on the floor with him make it possible for him to score without too much work.

If the Spurs upgrade at that position (tall order since Pure pgs are gold in a scoring pg league) then all the other positions can play naturally. And the spurs can get a wing defender,a true shotblocking center+Splitter all with Duncan instead of worrying about whether these guys can hit from beyond 17ft.

[FromWayDowntown]

George Hill. He might not average 15 and 6 a game, but he is more than capable. If the Spurs can package him for a bigger piece, then its time to send Hill packing. His defense has progressively gotten worst each season and his offense output is sporadic at best. He's peaked.

If you know all of that, what makes you think that an NBA GM wouldn't think exactly the same things about Hill? And, thinking those things, why on Earth would an NBA GM give up players of the quality discussed earlier in this thread (Kendrick Perkins, Brendan Haywood, Tyson Chandler, Marcus Camby) for that guy?

[rmt]

Their are 2 reasons why the Spurs haven't gotten a Solid shot blocking center or a have played mobile tall PF.

1 - Defensively, Tim cant play against PF's today like Dirk, Odom, Bosh since those guys are mobile and put the ball on the floor. But if he did their would have to be a traditional 7-1 300lb center in the lane taking up space and blocking shots to cover when Duncan or anyone from the Spurs gets beat. Thats pretty much common knowledge though. Look at the Lakers, its worked well for them

2 - This reason gets overlooked alot. If you get a solid bynum-sized center, or play a mobile defensive PF (Splitter) to play next to duncan then that hurts parker on the offensive end since those type players normally cant shoot. Since the 08-09 season, the offense has revolved more and more around Parker and less on Duncan. Parker can get into lane alot easier with space, and his passing game is only effective when he is in the lane, because as we all know he is not a pure playmaker. Because of that Guys like Bonner,Dice will get alot of playing time with Parker because they allow him room to operate without having to work to hard and it also simplifies the offense for him so he doesnt have to work to hard to make decisions. In the Championship years Duncan was alot more involved and could do more damage. Parker however is now the Spurs most consistent scorer and alot of the lineups put on the floor with him make it possible for him to score without too much work.

If the Spurs upgrade at that position (tall order since Pure pgs are gold in a scoring pg league) then all the other positions can play naturally. And the spurs can get a wing defender,a true shotblocking center+Splitter all with Duncan instead of worrying about whether these guys can hit from beyond 17ft.

2. Blair averaged 21.4 minutes (mostly playing with Duncan) this year and he doesn't have a jump shot. Duncan and the perimeter players can take the jump shots. Surely the Spurs can get by with only 1 player on the floor not being able to hit a jump shot. Besides, MEM (and LA if we had gotten there) clogged the lane and Parker didn't get in the lane to dish out (m)any jump shots.

Spurs are not going to trade TP or get a pure PG.

[JonNOKC]

You answered your own question. The Spurs didn't create the concept of size and defense, but they certainly seem to think they did. When suffering from that kind of hubris, it's probably easy to think you can just come up with a new "formula" for winning. Unfortunately there's only been one.

Good take - and while obviously size & defense have long won championships (especially defense) the 99' Spurs moved the league back that direction after the Jordan Bulls had won (6 of 8), of course the Bulls were good defensively and had decent size from a defensive standpoint.

[++SaiNt TiAg0++]

Their are 2 reasons why the Spurs haven't gotten a Solid shot blocking center or a have played mobile tall PF.

1 - Defensively, Tim cant play against PF's today like Dirk, Odom, Bosh since those guys are mobile and put the ball on the floor. But if he did their would have to be a traditional 7-1 300lb center in the lane taking up space and blocking shots to cover when Duncan or anyone from the Spurs gets beat. Thats pretty much common knowledge though. Look at the Lakers, its worked well for them

2 - This reason gets overlooked alot. If you get a solid bynum-sized center, or play a mobile defensive PF (Splitter) to play next to duncan then that hurts parker on the offensive end since those type players normally cant shoot. Since the 08-09 season, the offense has revolved more and more around Parker and less on Duncan. Parker can get into lane alot easier with space, and his passing game is only effective when he is in the lane, because as we all know he is not a pure playmaker. Because of that Guys like Bonner,Dice will get alot of playing time with Parker because they allow him room to operate without having to work to hard and it also simplifies the offense for him so he doesnt have to work to hard to make decisions. In the Championship years Duncan was alot more involved and could do more damage. Parker however is now the Spurs most consistent scorer and alot of the lineups put on the floor with him make it possible for him to score without too much work.

If the Spurs upgrade at that position (tall order since Pure pgs are gold in a scoring pg league) then all the other positions can play naturally. And the spurs can get a wing defender,a true shotblocking center+Splitter all with Duncan instead of worrying about whether these guys can hit from beyond 17ft.

nice post :toast

[Obstructed_View]

Good take - and while obviously size & defense have long won championships (especially defense) the 99' Spurs moved the league back that direction after the Jordan Bulls had won (6 of 8), of course the Bulls were good defensively and had decent size from a defensive standpoint.

Jordan's Bulls may never have had a dominating center, but they never lacked size on their front line, people just don't think of them because Jordan and Pippen were insane shot blockers. Bill Cartwright, Will Perdue, Bill Wennington and Luc Longley were all legit seven foot centers. Stacey King, Horace Grant, Scott Williams, Cliff Levingston, and John Salley were all big strong power forwards and were at least 6'10"*. The only time they had an undersized power forward was Rodman.

In fact, if you think about guys like Harper, Pippen, and Kukoc and add them to the names above, the Bulls were huge at virtually every position over their run.

*all from memory. It disgusts me how much I remember about the Bulls.

[Cessation]

Jordan's Bulls may never have had a dominating center, but they never lacked size on their front line, people just don't think of them because Jordan and Pippen were insane shot blockers. Bill Cartwright, Will Perdue, Bill Wennington and Luc Longley were all legit seven foot centers. Stacey King, Horace Grant, Scott Williams, Cliff Levingston, and John Salley were all big strong power forwards and were at least 6'10"*. The only time they had an undersized power forward was Rodman.

In fact, if you think about guys like Harper, Pippen, and Kukoc and add them to the names above, the Bulls were huge at virtually every position over their run.

*all from memory. It disgusts me how much I remember about the Bulls.


I agree with this post, and there is nothing wrong with remembering quality championship teams.

Bulls had scrubs with size, that could shoot, and play adequate d in short stints. Spurs have undersized scrubs that can shoot in the regular season. I think pop is trying to get too cute, or cut corners, by trying to out finnesse elite teams, with clowns like bonner and mason. Unsurprisingly, it blew up in his face, yet again.

[Obstructed_View]

I agree with this post, and there is nothing wrong with remembering quality championship teams.

Bulls had scrubs with size, that could shoot, and play adequate d in short stints. Spurs have undersized scrubs that can shoot in the regular season. I think pop is trying to get too cute, or cut corners, by trying to out finnesse elite teams, with clowns like bonner and mason. Unsurprisingly, it blew up in his face, yet again.

Yeah, the same thing has been occurring to me over and over watching the Spurs' front line: You don't have to be great and big, but you have to at least be one. Too often for the last five years, they've been neither.

[dbestpro]

Yeah, the same thing has been occurring to me over and over watching the Spurs' front line: You don't have to be great and big, but you have to at least be one. Too often for the last five years, they've been neither.

I saw it coming. Pop was going to keep the Spurs small with Bonner and Blair, which gave them no chance in the playoffs. I watched every regular season game and took my kid to Disney when the playoffs started. It was just so obvious to everyone that this was no going to work, but Pop.

[DMC]

If you have to make a cake and you don't have eggs, you make it without eggs. That's pretty much what Pop did. The kicker is that he's the one that could have bought the eggs.

[HankChinaski]

last season, the biggest issue the spurs had was little help outside with the jumpers. Defense seemed decent enough to compete with the playoff contenders last year. But we couldn't do squat on the offensive end. They brought in some shooters from signing and the draft.

This year, we had the scoring from outside and players that could create for themselves when we hit the usual spurs shooting funks. The defense became and issue halfway into the season.

Ian just isn't a smart enough player to fit in with the spurs style of play. The years we had Nazr there were different issues we were having when we began to struggle.

And Splitter whom I like so far, just couldn't stay healthy throughout the season, and with Pop having to stick with an offensive minded team strategy when you would see Splitter out there, sure he looked great out on the defensive end but he was a log jam on the offensive end a lot of the time.

This coming season if there is one, expect the team strategy to fall back more on defense. I think neal sticks with the team, bonner is iffy, but if he stays is a decent contributor in the regular season. Hill and Blair are the most expendable pieces you have on the roster to bring in new talent along with a two for one trade with another spurs player.

Really the issue this year was not enough defense. Last year was lack of shot makers on offense.

People whine about the front office, but I think they did a decent job considering the deficiencies they were looking to work on last off season.

[Obstructed_View]

If you have to make a cake and you don't have eggs, you make it without eggs. That's pretty much what Pop did. The kicker is that he's the one that could have bought the eggs.

Flawed logic, because when you have to make a cake you go get eggs.

Second, the analogy needs tweaking: Pop is a professional cake baker who cooks cakes from a boxed cake mix. For years people have said that Pop is a great chef. He tells people that he just reads the back of the box and lets the ingredients do all the real work. One day, for a big event, he spontaneously decides to start making cakes using radishes instead of eggs. He has eggs in the fridge, but he just uses radishes. When people say the cakes taste like shit, he says that the ingredients need to be fresher or just makes a smart-assed statement about how the person asking the question isn't a chef. He goes and buys the most expensive radishes he can find, selling only radish cakes while his business goes down the tubes.

[MaNu4Tres]

Second, the analogy needs tweaking: Pop is a professional cake baker who cooks cakes from a boxed cake mix. For years people have said that Pop is a great chef. He tells people that he just reads the back of the box and lets the ingredients do all the real work. One day, for a big event, he spontaneously decides to start making cakes using radishes instead of eggs. He has eggs in the fridge, but he just uses radishes. When people say the cakes taste like shit, he says that the ingredients need to be fresher or just makes a smart-assed statement about how the person asking the question isn't a chef. He goes and buys the most expensive radishes he can find, selling only radish cakes while his business goes down the tubes.

:lol

[Nathan89]

Flawed logic, because when you have to make a cake you go get eggs.

Second, the analogy needs tweaking: Pop is a professional cake baker who cooks cakes from a boxed cake mix. For years people have said that Pop is a great chef. He tells people that he just reads the back of the box and lets the ingredients do all the real work. One day, for a big event, he spontaneously decides to start making cakes using radishes instead of eggs. He has eggs in the fridge, but he just uses radishes. When people say the cakes taste like shit, he says that the ingredients need to be fresher or just makes a smart-assed statement about how the person asking the question isn't a chef. He goes and buys the most expensive radishes he can find, selling only radish cakes while his business goes down the tubes.

Solid post,tbh.

[TJastal]

last season, the biggest issue the spurs had was little help outside with the jumpers. Defense seemed decent enough to compete with the playoff contenders last year. But we couldn't do squat on the offensive end. They brought in some shooters from signing and the draft.

This year, we had the scoring from outside and players that could create for themselves when we hit the usual spurs shooting funks. The defense became and issue halfway into the season.

Ian just isn't a smart enough player to fit in with the spurs style of play. The years we had Nazr there were different issues we were having when we began to struggle.

And Splitter whom I like so far, just couldn't stay healthy throughout the season, and with Pop having to stick with an offensive minded team strategy when you would see Splitter out there, sure he looked great out on the defensive end but he was a log jam on the offensive end a lot of the time.

This coming season if there is one, expect the team strategy to fall back more on defense. I think neal sticks with the team, bonner is iffy, but if he stays is a decent contributor in the regular season. Hill and Blair are the most expendable pieces you have on the roster to bring in new talent along with a two for one trade with another spurs player.

Really the issue this year was not enough defense. Last year was lack of shot makers on offense.

People whine about the front office, but I think they did a decent job considering the deficiencies they were looking to work on last off season.

What a crock of bull. Same old excuses rehashed by popsucker #5108

Splitter was not a "logjam", in fact he scored more points per minute than the legendary Bonner. And Mahinmi hardly ever got an opportunity to get better (once he was healthy).

[Obstructed_View]

It's really too bad that Mahinmi wasn't smart enough to fit into the Spurs' style of play, which is apparently to miss rotations and fail to guard the paint or the perimeter.

[barbacoataco]

After reading through this thread I see that everyone is focusing on the Spurs' lack of size at the C/PF position with Bonner and Blair making up half of their frontcourt.

IMO another big problem was their lack of a defensive specialist perimeter player. Memphis had Tony Allen and Battier. The Spurs never replaced Bowen and decided that they didn't need a defensive specialist. Remember who used to SHUT DOWN Zack Randolph? BOWEN. I know that Bruce Bowen's don't grow on trees, but they could have brought in someone.

[LongtimeSpursFan]

last season, the biggest issue the spurs had was little help outside with the jumpers. Defense seemed decent enough to compete with the playoff contenders last year. But we couldn't do squat on the offensive end. They brought in some shooters from signing and the draft.

This year, we had the scoring from outside and players that could create for themselves when we hit the usual spurs shooting funks. The defense became and issue halfway into the season.

Ian just isn't a smart enough player to fit in with the spurs style of play. The years we had Nazr there were different issues we were having when we began to struggle.

And Splitter whom I like so far, just couldn't stay healthy throughout the season, and with Pop having to stick with an offensive minded team strategy when you would see Splitter out there, sure he looked great out on the defensive end but he was a log jam on the offensive end a lot of the time.

This coming season if there is one, expect the team strategy to fall back more on defense. I think neal sticks with the team, bonner is iffy, but if he stays is a decent contributor in the regular season. Hill and Blair are the most expendable pieces you have on the roster to bring in new talent along with a two for one trade with another spurs player.

Really the issue this year was not enough defense. Last year was lack of shot makers on offense.

People whine about the front office, but I think they did a decent job considering the deficiencies they were looking to work on last off season.

I agree 100 percent. Last year posters were complaining we lacked the athleticism and offensive power to keep with Phoenix and those type of teams. So the Spurs extended RJ's contact, added Neal and Anderson plus relied on development of Blair to give us athleticism/offensive power we needed. Spurs were also able to finally sign Tiago Splitter which would give us some size. Unfortunately, with Tiago's injuries kept him off the court for the first part of the season and he was unable to contribute as much as we had hoped this year. While I prefer that Tiago have played more minutes I still think that Pop would have used Tiago against the Lakers (as they seemed to be the favorites this year and an eventual matchup).

I can bet that not one single individual would have considered the Grizzlies to be such a force these playoffs or Randolph such a dominating power forward and the best player in this years playoffs (even moreso than Dirk). And now that the Grizzlies have knocked us out of the playoffs seems like everyone now wants us to 'big' to compete with them and other big teams although there are very few of those type teams except for the Lakers now. Think about it are there even teams that have a PF/C combination as good as Grizzlies? Lakers frontline is not as dominating as had been and seem to be playing average this year, Celtics are no longer the same team several years ago, Heat are thin on the inside and more of a perimeter team. OKC added Perkins but their stars are Durant and Westbrook. Mavericks are big but Dirk is more of a perimeter player and Dice played well against him last year.

So I think that the FO did a good job of preparing the Spurs for this season. Do I think they could have done things differently? Yes, but hindsight is 20-20. Hopefully during the offseason Spurs can sign a big to take Dice's role and hopefully Splitter can remain injury free and become a starter. He looks like he could be a 13/9 type of player.

Spurs just need a few adjustments and they have a chance of reaching the Finals just like any other team in the West. Its fair to say that their is no dominating team in the Western Conference anymore.

[pancakechef]

Everyone needs to get something straight:

First 60 we played small and won ALL THE TIME.

The problem was, we abandoned that SCORE SCORE SCORE mentality during the playoffs. We had a fine group. But like last year, we were mismanaged. This has been the problem the past few years. Pop isnt a good coach PERIOD. Hes shown it with arguably the best roster in the NBA just completely misplayed EVERYONE

[TJastal]

I agree 100 percent. Last year posters were complaining we lacked the athleticism and offensive power to keep with Phoenix and those type of teams. So the Spurs extended RJ's contact, added Neal and Anderson plus relied on development of Blair to give us athleticism/offensive power we needed. Spurs were also able to finally sign Tiago Splitter which would give us some size. Unfortunately, with Tiago's injuries kept him off the court for the first part of the season and he was unable to contribute as much as we had hoped this year. While I prefer that Tiago have played more minutes I still think that Pop would have used Tiago against the Lakers (as they seemed to be the favorites this year and an eventual matchup).

I can bet that not one single individual would have considered the Grizzlies to be such a force these playoffs or Randolph such a dominating power forward and the best player in this years playoffs (even moreso than Dirk). And now that the Grizzlies have knocked us out of the playoffs seems like everyone now wants us to 'big' to compete with them and other big teams although there are very few of those type teams except for the Lakers now. Think about it are there even teams that have a PF/C combination as good as Grizzlies? Lakers frontline is not as dominating as had been and seem to be playing average this year, Celtics are no longer the same team several years ago, Heat are thin on the inside and more of a perimeter team. OKC added Perkins but their stars are Durant and Westbrook. Mavericks are big but Dirk is more of a perimeter player and Dice played well against him last year.

So I think that the FO did a good job of preparing the Spurs for this season. Do I think they could have done things differently? Yes, but hindsight is 20-20. Hopefully during the offseason Spurs can sign a big to take Dice's role and hopefully Splitter can remain injury free and become a starter. He looks like he could be a 13/9 type of player.

Spurs just need a few adjustments and they have a chance of reaching the Finals just like any other team in the West. Its fair to say that their is no dominating team in the Western Conference anymore.

Popsucker please.

We've heard the "Splitter missed training camp" excuse already. At least come up with some new material.

And damn near any frontline combo would have looked great against Bonner & Blair. Randolph and Gasol are big and physical, but in no way do I consider them insurmountable. The thunder already showed how you can beat them in game 2 (which is to match them in size, length, & physicality) and will go on to win the series using the same tactic. You see, while Pop was busy stroking Bonner's cock the thunder were making moves in preparation for the playoffs that are paying off now. Maybe Pop noticed, but I doubt it.

Grizz were just too good.. we couldn't do anything, Pop did all he could ... wahhh..

[rmt]

Splitter was not injured that much. If pre-season were so important, why did Pop play Novak and Green ahead of Splitter? I remember some games (even with trash time) that Splitter was literally the last person off the bench - that's behind Novak, Green, and Quinn.

Pop had absolutely no excuse for not integrating Splitter. There was plenty of time and it wouldn't have taken that long as he's played pro ball and as evidenced by his play in the playoffs.

It's no coincidence that the first 2 teams to be eliminated (Spurs, ORL) are heavily reliant on 3 pt shooting which is one of the easiest things to shut down in the playoffs. Live by the 3, die by the 3. The only consistent thing that can be relied on night after night is defense and Pop/Spurs moved away from that by re-signing Bonner. The debacle of re-signing RJ is sheer arrogance - that Pop's system is so complicated that it takes players a year to learn the system. Any fool could have seen that RJ didn't fit this team (and still won't even after x years).

[pancakechef]

BLAIR has more steals/ deflected passes/ aggressive than McDyess

His instincts are better, AND he rebounds better when it counts.

This is confirmed VIA the EYE-TEST as well as statistics (PER, EFF, and stats per 48)

Thanks,

[pancakechef]

BLAIR has more steals/ deflected passes/ aggressive than McDyess

His instincts are better, AND he rebounds better when it counts.

This is confirmed VIA the EYE-TEST as well as statistics (PER, EFF, and stats per 48)

Thanks,

[TJastal]

BLAIR has more steals/ deflected passes/ aggressive than McDyess

His instincts are better, AND he rebounds better when it counts.

This is confirmed VIA the EYE-TEST as well as statistics (PER, EFF, and stats per 48)

Thanks,

So on a scale of 1-100 what would you give Blair & McDyess for these new important stats you have introduced?

Instinct
Blair -- ?
McDyess -- ?

Rebounding (when it counts)
Blair -- ?
McDyess --?

Aggressive
Blair -- ?
McDyess --?

[SenorSpur]

Everyone needs to get something straight:

First 60 we played small and won ALL THE TIME.

The problem was, we abandoned that SCORE SCORE SCORE mentality during the playoffs. We had a fine group. But like last year, we were mismanaged. This has been the problem the past few years. Pop isnt a good coach PERIOD. Hes shown it with arguably the best roster in the NBA just completely misplayed EVERYONE

Regular season basketball and playoff basketball are TOTALLY different. If playing small were a good strategy, the Suns, Warriors and Knicks would've all won titles by now.

[LongtimeSpursFan]

Regular season basketball and playoff basketball are TOTALLY different. If playing small were a good strategy, the Suns, Warriors and Knicks would've all won titles by now.

The Heat and Mavs seem to be doing well and they are mostly jumpshooting/perimeter teams.

[barbacoataco]

The Heat and Mavs seem to be doing well and they are mostly jumpshooting/perimeter teams.

The Heat have Wade and LJ. Those are two of the top 10 offensive players in the NBA, if not top 5. They both drive to the basket and are impossible to defend 1 on 1.

The Mavs have Dirk, who is a one of a kind player with a fadeaway jumper that can't be stopped. The Mavs also are a better defensive team than they get credit for.

[DMC]

Flawed logic, because when you have to make a cake you go get eggs.

see: the kicker...


Second, the analogy needs tweaking: Pop is a professional cake baker who cooks cakes from a boxed cake mix. For years people have said that Pop is a great chef. He tells people that he just reads the back of the box and lets the ingredients do all the real work. One day, for a big event, he spontaneously decides to start making cakes using radishes instead of eggs. He has eggs in the fridge, but he just uses radishes. When people say the cakes taste like shit, he says that the ingredients need to be fresher or just makes a smart-assed statement about how the person asking the question isn't a chef. He goes and buys the most expensive radishes he can find, selling only radish cakes while his business goes down the tubes.tl;dr

[portnoy1]

2. Blair averaged 21.4 minutes (mostly playing with Duncan) this year and he doesn't have a jump shot. Duncan and the perimeter players can take the jump shots. Surely the Spurs can get by with only 1 player on the floor not being able to hit a jump shot. Besides, MEM (and LA if we had gotten there) clogged the lane and Parker didn't get in the lane to dish out (m)any jump shots.

Spurs are not going to trade TP or get a pure PG.
You missed and supported my point all in one post. Blair started, yes. But Ginobili started with Blair and hooked him up on the pick n rolls. Blair and Ginobili have enough chemistry to work together even though he cant shoot. When Blair was benched and wasnt playing with Manu as much, his production dropped and then his minutes did as well later on.

About Parker not being able to drive.....Thats my point, it offset the way the Spurs offense ran. Thats why he kept forcing the issue, because if he didnt get into the lane that takes away his layups, and uncontested 3pt shots(basically their entire offense). As for the wins, I only remember the LA wins. Parker got out in transition, and on mismatches with gasol he would drive. stop. and pull up for a 16ft shot, which he was knocking down with consistency that game.

Never said they "WOULD" trade Parker. My point is that it would be easier getting a pure PG, and filling defensive holes properly after that. As opposed to the alternative, finding 2 insanely versatile players. 1) a shot-blocking and rebounding 7-0 C/F that can shoot well from beyond 18ft and move his feet well on defense. 2) a top 10 wing-defender that scores 13pts a night(mostly from the 3pt line) but can slash, post and rebound well when nessecary.

[Obstructed_View]

see: the kicker...


The real kicker is that Pop had eggs all along. Too bad you're too stupid to read six lines of text.

[HankChinaski]

What a crock of bull. Same old excuses rehashed by popsucker #5108

Splitter was not a "logjam", in fact he scored more points per minute than the legendary Bonner. And Mahinmi hardly ever got an opportunity to get better (once he was healthy).

I wasn't referring to his ability to score, i was talking more along the lines of him screwing up the offensive flow and movement on that end of the court. He'd cram up inside the paint alongside which other big we had out there with him and hinder our 1s and 2s from effectively penetrating the paint or having the ability to feed out the ball to another player.

He has good instincts at second chance clean up buckets. His pick n roll is quite possibly the best thing he provides out there he does it better than anyone else on the team.

Sure, you can make the argument that more playing could have corrected that.

And finally, don't be an jerk to me with your post. No need for name calling.

[Cessation]

:cry:cry No need for name calling. :cry:cry

[HankChinaski]

ha. okay. fair enough.

[Obstructed_View]

I wasn't referring to his ability to score, i was talking more along the lines of him screwing up the offensive flow and movement on that end of the court. He'd cram up inside the paint alongside which other big we had out there with him and hinder our 1s and 2s from effectively penetrating the paint or having the ability to feed out the ball to another player.
All the above is completely delusional, hence the name-calling. Since he played like 20 minutes with Duncan the entire season, he was usually with in with Bonner or Dice. They spread the floor or fail to spread the floor exactly as much as they do when they're in with Duncan.

[TJastal]

I wasn't referring to his ability to score, i was talking more along the lines of him screwing up the offensive flow and movement on that end of the court. He'd cram up inside the paint alongside which other big we had out there with him and hinder our 1s and 2s from effectively penetrating the paint or having the ability to feed out the ball to another player.

He has good instincts at second chance clean up buckets. His pick n roll is quite possibly the best thing he provides out there he does it better than anyone else on the team.

Sure, you can make the argument that more playing could have corrected that.

And finally, don't be an jerk to me with your post. No need for name calling.

Just stop trying to manufacture stupid reasons why Splitter didn't see more time and just face the reality that Pop is just a stubborn idiot. If you continue to do this, expect to be called out and don't whine about it.
HankChinaski, how is it the spurs won 61 games with Dejuan Blair "cramming the inside paint"? I don't get how you say Splitter cannot play in the starting lineup when Blair never goes within 10 feet of the arc. Not to mention Duncan rarely plays in the paint anymore anyway, it's mostly either Manu or Tony running pick and rolls with the bigs, which you said yourself Splitter excels at.

[rmt]

But Ginobili started with Blair and hooked him up on the pick n rolls. Blair and Ginobili have enough chemistry to work together even though he cant shoot. When Blair was benched and wasnt playing with Manu as much, his production dropped and then his minutes did as well later on.

About Parker not being able to drive.....Thats my point, it offset the way the Spurs offense ran. Thats why he kept forcing the issue, because if he didnt get into the lane that takes away his layups, and uncontested 3pt shots(basically their entire offense). As for the wins, I only remember the LA wins. Parker got out in transition, and on mismatches with gasol he would drive. stop. and pull up for a 16ft shot, which he was knocking down with consistency that game.

Manu/Splitter pick and roll looks just as good as (if not better than) Manu/Blair with the added advantage of height/size on the defensive side.

Parker's driving/dishing would work just as well with Splitter as with Blair.

To think that we could go into the playoffs with Dice/Bonner/Blair defensively was foolhardy.



Second, the analogy needs tweaking: Pop is a professional cake baker who cooks cakes from a boxed cake mix. For years people have said that Pop is a great chef. He tells people that he just reads the back of the box and lets the ingredients do all the real work. One day, for a big event, he spontaneously decides to start making cakes using radishes instead of eggs. He has eggs in the fridge, but he just uses radishes. When people say the cakes taste like shit, he says that the ingredients need to be fresher or just makes a smart-assed statement about how the person asking the question isn't a chef. He goes and buys the most expensive radishes he can find, selling only radish cakes while his business goes down the tubes.

Great analogy. The shame is that he had the eggs (Splitter) in the fridge. Sheer arrogance.

[HankChinaski]

Just stop trying to manufacture stupid reasons why Splitter didn't see more time and just face the reality that Pop is just a stubborn idiot. If you continue to do this, expect to be called out and don't whine about it.
HankChinaski, how is it the spurs won 61 games with Dejuan Blair "cramming the inside paint"? I don't get how you say Splitter cannot play in the starting lineup when Blair never goes within 10 feet of the arc. Not to mention Duncan rarely plays in the paint anymore anyway, it's mostly either Manu or Tony running pick and rolls with the bigs, which you said yourself Splitter excels at.

Look, I completely agree Pop is stubborn, especially with his rotation. It's the thing you have to take with Pop with the spurs. And yeah, i'm not a huge fan of either Blair or Bonner. And Splitter should have gotten more playing time. All I was trying to say was in the Regular Season earlier on after the injuries he looked lost and made mistakes on the offensive end. I wasn't very confident about Splitter this YEAR. My initial thought was after this season who will be in the starting lineup and play a more prominent role with the spurs. I should have probably gone on and made a lengthier explanation as to what I was stating. I think I came out trying to say something and instead lead into you believing I was stating that. My bad.

I thought Splitter was great in the post season. RJ was adequate for game 1 and 2 then just faded away and became worthless.

All i really wanted to suggest was that I liked what the FO did Overall with their moves. Their bad decisions with signings well like i just said overall i thought it was still good overall with what they did. Didn't really like Bonner getting extended and would prefer RJ gone but that's how it is.

I think the organization is going to make moves towards rebuilding further and think they'll focus more replacing the flaws and contracts they have in the next two seasons and the team will be better off. I still as a fan have faith with this front office to work on issues that plagued them this season.

[TJastal]

Look, I completely agree Pop is stubborn, especially with his rotation. It's the thing you have to take with Pop with the spurs. And yeah, i'm not a huge fan of either Blair or Bonner. And Splitter should have gotten more playing time. All I was trying to say was in the Regular Season earlier on after the injuries he looked lost and made mistakes on the offensive end. I wasn't very confident about Splitter this YEAR. My initial thought was after this season who will be in the starting lineup and play a more prominent role with the spurs. I should have probably gone on and made a lengthier explanation as to what I was stating. I think I came out trying to say something and instead lead into you believing I was stating that. My bad.

I thought Splitter was great in the post season. RJ was adequate for game 1 and 2 then just faded away and became worthless.

All i really wanted to suggest was that I liked what the FO did Overall with their moves. Their bad decisions with signings well like i just said overall i thought it was still good overall with what they did. Didn't really like Bonner getting extended and would prefer RJ gone but that's how it is.

I think the organization is going to make moves towards rebuilding further and think they'll focus more replacing the flaws and contracts they have in the next two seasons and the team will be better off. I still as a fan have faith with this front office to work on issues that plagued them this season.

Keeping the faith is defenitely your choice and right. I think your deluding yourself into some false hope (it's been what, 4 straight years of underachievement and watching Popovich's shenanigans since 2007). I don't know what happened but in 2008 a switch flipped in Pop's head and he went from being a competent head coach to a complete imebecile in almost every regard. It seemed to coincide with the arrival of Matt Bonner. Ever since we got that albatross on the team, the team's big rotation has been soft. I remember so many times screaming at the tv for Pop to make Kurt Thomas (a much better defensive big) a starter and give him the majority of the minutes. But he was infatuated with having Bonner start and play big minutes. Same kind of infatuation he had with Finley.

[Obstructed_View]

Keeping the faith is defenitely your choice and right. I think your deluding yourself into some false hope (it's been what, 4 straight years of underachievement and watching Popovich's shenanigans since 2007). I don't know what happened but in 2008 a switch flipped in Pop's head and he went from being a competent head coach to a complete imebecile in almost every regard. It seemed to coincide with the arrival of Matt Bonner. Ever since we got that albatross on the team, the team's big rotation has been soft. I remember so many times screaming at the tv for Pop to make Kurt Thomas (a much better defensive big) a starter and give him the majority of the minutes. But he was infatuated with having Bonner start and play big minutes. Same kind of infatuation he had with Finley.

Since the 2006 playoffs.

[rmt]

Keeping the faith is defenitely your choice and right. I think your deluding yourself into some false hope (it's been what, 4 straight years of underachievement and watching Popovich's shenanigans since 2007). I don't know what happened but in 2008 a switch flipped in Pop's head and he went from being a competent head coach to a complete imebecile in almost every regard. It seemed to coincide with the arrival of Matt Bonner. Ever since we got that albatross on the team, the team's big rotation has been soft. I remember so many times screaming at the tv for Pop to make Kurt Thomas (a much better defensive big) a starter and give him the majority of the minutes. But he was infatuated with having Bonner start and play big minutes. Same kind of infatuation he had with Finley.

Especially considering the huge impact Kurt Thomas had this year (in CHI) filling in because of injuries (and this 3 years after Spurs had him).

[ChumpDumper]

lol screaming at the tv for Kurt Thomas

[pancakechef]

Keeping the faith is defenitely your choice and right. I think your deluding yourself into some false hope (it's been what, 4 straight years of underachievement and watching Popovich's shenanigans since 2007). I don't know what happened but in 2008 a switch flipped in Pop's head and he went from being a competent head coach to a complete imebecile in almost every regard. It seemed to coincide with the arrival of Matt Bonner. Ever since we got that albatross on the team, the team's big rotation has been soft. I remember so many times screaming at the tv for Pop to make Kurt Thomas (a much better defensive big) a starter and give him the majority of the minutes. But he was infatuated with having Bonner start and play big minutes. Same kind of infatuation he had with Finley.

Let me tell you what that switch was: YOU READY.....

IT WAS DUNCAN COULDNT DOMINATE BOTH ENDS OF THE FLOOR EVERY GAME.

this is why pop is, was, and always will be a highly overrated coach. Anyone on here could have won AT LEAST 4 rings with TIM his whole entire career..... PERIOD.

good coaching doesnt mean taking the best team in the nba and getting them a ring. Good coaching means consistently changing and adapting to the game and your players so that YOU DONT UNDERACHIEVE.

[Cessation]

lol screaming at the tv for Kurt Thomas

That's a good one from chumpdumper, I better make the most of it.

[TJastal]

Let me tell you what that switch was: YOU READY.....

IT WAS DUNCAN COULDNT DOMINATE BOTH ENDS OF THE FLOOR EVERY GAME.

this is why pop is, was, and always will be a highly overrated coach. Anyone on here could have won AT LEAST 4 rings with TIM his whole entire career..... PERIOD.

good coaching doesnt mean taking the best team in the nba and getting them a ring. Good coaching means consistently changing and adapting to the game and your players so that YOU DONT UNDERACHIEVE.

I don't know about that. Duncan was still a dominant player in 2008. His playoff numbers (pts/rebs/blks) were very comparable to the numbers he put up in his youth. I think it was Pop's fetish for his newest ginger is what ultimately did the spurs in that year.