Federally mandated LED lightbulbs to cost $50 each

[DarrinS]

Better stock up on your incandescent bulbs

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110516/ap_on_hi_te/us_led_lighting;_ylt=AsE3Gkdtse.WMyLRBM_sWOCs0NUE; _ylu=X3oDMTNqNzVocWJlBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTEwNTE2L3VzX 2xlZF9saWdodGluZwRjY29kZQNtb3N0cG9wdWxhcgRjcG9zAzg EcG9zAzUEcHQDaG9tZV9jb2tlBHNlYwN5bl9oZWFkbGluZV9sa XN0BHNsawNs






NEW YORK – Two leading makers of lighting products are showcasing LED bulbs that are bright enough to replace energy-guzzling 100-watt light bulbs set to disappear from stores in January.

Their demonstrations at the LightFair trade show in Philadelphia this week mean that brighter LED bulbs will likely go on sale next year, but after a government ban takes effect.

The new bulbs will also be expensive — about $50 each — so the development may not prevent consumers from hoarding traditional bulbs.

The technology in traditional "incandescent" bulbs is more than a century old. Such bulbs waste most of the electricity that feeds them, turning it into heat. The 100-watt bulb, in particular, produces so much heat that it's used in Hasbro's Easy-Bake Oven.

To encourage energy efficiency, Congress passed a law in 2007 mandating that bulbs producing 100 watts worth of light meet certain efficiency goals, starting in 2012. Conventional light bulbs don't meet those goals, so the law will prohibit making or importing them. The same rule will start apply to remaining bulbs 40 watts and above in 2014. Since January, California has already banned stores from restocking 100-watt incandescent bulbs. (naturally)

Creating good alternatives to the light bulb has been more difficult than expected, especially for the very bright 100-watt bulbs. Part of the problem is that these new bulbs have to fit into lamps and ceiling fixtures designed for older technology.

Compact fluorescents are the most obvious replacement, but they have drawbacks. They contain a small amount of toxic mercury vapor, which is released if they break or are improperly thrown away. They last longer than traditional bulbs but not as long as LEDs. Brighter models are bulky and may not fit in existing fixtures.

Another new lighting technology, organic light-emitting diodes, or OLEDs, has had problems reaching mass production. OLEDs are glowing sheets or tiles, rather than pinprick light sources, as LEDs are. They're used as vibrant color screens for smartphones, particularly from Samsung Electronics Co.

But making OLEDs that are big, bright, cheap and long-lasting enough for use as light sources has proved difficult, in part because they use chemicals that are sensitive to oxygen and spoil unless sealed very carefully.

Acuity Brands Inc., an Atlanta-based maker of light fixtures, will be showing some OLED panels at the show. They will go on sale next year, but the price will likely make them technology showpieces rather than candidates for everyday lighting.

LEDs are efficient, durable and produced in great quantities, but they're still expensive. An LED bulb can contain a dozen light-emitting diodes, or tiny semiconductor chips, which cost about $1 each.

The big problem with LEDs is that although they don't produce as much heat as incandescent bulbs, the heat they do create shortens the lifespan and reduces the efficiency of the chips. Cramming a dozen chips together in a tight bulb-shaped package that fits in today's lamps and sockets makes the heat problem worse. The brighter the bulb, the bigger the problem is.

The most powerful pear-shaped LED bulbs in stores today — the kind that fits existing lamps — produce light equivalent to a 60-watt bulb (lame), though there are more powerful ones for directional or flood lighting.

Osram Sylvania, a unit of Germany's Siemens AG, said it has overcome the heat problem and will be showing a pear-shaped 100-watt-equivalent LED bulb this week. It doesn't have a firm launch date, but it usually shows products about a year before they hit store shelves.

Lighting Sciences Group Corp., a Satellite Beach, Fla.-based company that specializes in LED lighting, will be showing several 100-watt-equivalent prototypes, including some that solve the problem of cooling the LEDs by using microscopic devices that move air over the chips, like miniature fans.

Before the 100-watters, there will be 75-watters on the shelves this year. Osram Sylvania will be selling them at Lowe's starting in July. Royal Philips Electronics NV, the world's biggest lighting maker, will have them in stores late this year for $40 to $45.

However, 60-watt bulbs are the big prize, since they're the most common. There are 425 million incandescent light bulbs in the 60-watt range in use in the U.S. today, said Zia Eftekhar, the head of Philips' North American lighting division. The energy savings that could be realized by replacing them with 10-watt LED bulbs is staggering.

To stimulate LED development, the federal government has instituted a $10 million "L Prize" for an energy-efficient replacement for the 60-watt bulb. Philips is so far the only entrant in testing, and Eftekhar expects the company to win it soon. But Lighting Sciences Group plans its own entry, which it will demonstrate at the trade show.

Philips has been selling a 60-watt-equivalent bulb at Home Depot since December that's quite similar to the one submitted to the contest. But it's slightly dimmer, consumes 2 watts too much power and costs $40, whereas the L Prize target is $22. Sylvania sells a similar LED bulb at Lowe's, also for $40.

However, LED prices are coming down quickly. The DoE expects a 60-watt equivalent LED bulb to cost $10 by 2015, putting them within striking range of the price of a compact fluorescent bulb.

Bob Karlicek, the director of the Smart Lighting Research Center at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute in Troy, N.Y., thinks that price is achievable.

But, he said, "it's not necessarily clear to people in the lighting industry that LED chips were ever meant to go into a bulb."

What's really needed, he said, is a new approach to lighting — new fixtures and lamps that spread out the LEDs, avoiding the heat problem.

[TeyshaBlue]

There is no federal mandate for LED bulbs. http://www.audioandanarchy.com/images/smilies/fack.png

[ChumpDumper]

Where does it say LED bulbs are mandated, Darrin?

[DarrinS]

There is no federal mandate for LED bulbs. http://www.audioandanarchy.com/images/smilies/fack.png

Incandescent will be illegal and CFL's will probably join them.

[TeyshaBlue]

Incandescent will be illegal and CFL's will probably join them.

No they won't. Jesus.http://www.audioandanarchy.com/images/smilies/fack.png http://www.audioandanarchy.com/images/smilies/fack.png

[TeyshaBlue]

http://www.startribune.com/blogs/90608939.html

[ChumpDumper]

Incandescent will be illegal and CFL's will probably join them.So the answer is no, there is no federal mandate to buy LEDs and the article states that in a few of years LED bulbs will be $10 each.

Why do you feel the need to lie, Darrin?

[DMX7]

I've already begun replacing my old bulbs with GE LEDs. No complaints here.

[MannyIsGod]

You really are a liar

[TeyshaBlue]

I've gone back to coal-gas lanterns.

[DMX7]

Darrin prefers we just burn tires for light.

[TeyshaBlue]

We should move to lanterns that burn baby seal oil.

[Winehole23]

Saying that DarrinS lies implies prior familiarity with the truth. That's a rather big assumption, IMHO.

It seems more likely to me that DarrinS parrots whatever conforms to his own prejudices without vetting the sources. Generalization from ignorance isn't necessarily a lie, but Darrin's gross disregard for the truth or falsity of what he says for sure points to him being a big bullshitter -- not that that's any notable distinction here, but he is notably bad at it.

[coyotes_geek]

I just fill up empty beer cans with crude oil and set them on fire. I get to make statements against Obama's liberal, enviro-wacko, radical, socialist agenda on many different levels at the same time.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Better stock up on your incandescent bulbs

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110516/ap_on_hi_te/us_led_lighting;_ylt=AsE3Gkdtse.WMyLRBM_sWOCs0NUE; _ylu=X3oDMTNqNzVocWJlBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTEwNTE2L3VzX 2xlZF9saWdodGluZwRjY29kZQNtb3N0cG9wdWxhcgRjcG9zAzg EcG9zAzUEcHQDaG9tZV9jb2tlBHNlYwN5bl9oZWFkbGluZV9sa XN0BHNsawNs

Did you read the article? Or did you just believe the liar who wrote it?

[ChumpDumper]

Which blog were you parroting, Darrin?

http://www.google.com/search?q=Federally+mandated+LED+lightbulbs+to+cost +%2450+each&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

[Drachen]

I replaced all of the bulbs in my apartment in 2007 with CFLs, then when I moved out, I switched the incandesents back in and brought those CFLs with me to the house we bought in 2008. I still have those bulbs, all in use and doing thier jobs quite well (except one which was broken during the move and yes I took the appropriate precautions). If they last at least a year longer, I will probably replace them as they burn out with LEDs (a year to allow the LED prices to come down). I guess in about a year or so, I can sell my box of incandescents (which came out of the sockets in my house) to some luddite for a shit ton of cash

[ElNono]

CFLs work great and produce great savings... I don't know exactly where the idea that they'll get outlawed anytime soon comes from...

[Winehole23]

Spreading fake outrage based on lies and bullshit is one of DarrinS's main functions in this forum.

[boutons_deux]

Philips Lighting CEO: LED prices to drop in half


http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-20063664-54.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20

[DarrinS]

CFLs work great and produce great savings... I don't know exactly where the idea that they'll get outlawed anytime soon comes from...


I just figured the greens won't like all that mercury going into the landfill.


To everyone else in this thread..... "you lie"? Really? That's what you bring? :lol Sticks and stones, mo fo's, sticks and stones. :lol

[TeyshaBlue]

Your retarded OP was handed to you on a platter accompanied by your ass. That's orders of magnitude more than you brought with this idiotic thread.

[DarrinS]

Your retarded OP was handed to you on a platter accompanied by your ass. That's orders of magnitude more than you brought with this idiotic thread.


Whatever you say. :sleep

[ChumpDumper]

I just figured the greens won't like all that mercury going into the landfill.


To everyone else in this thread..... "you lie"? Really? That's what you bring? :lol Sticks and stones, mo fo's, sticks and stones. :lolWhat else is there to bring?

I can't believe you expected us to overlook such a bald-faced and regurgitated lie.

Do you really like lying that much, Darrin?

[TeyshaBlue]

Whatever you say. :sleep

lol. It's what I saw.:lmao

[Stringer_Bell]

I hate big government telling us how to light our houses. Some of us don't make 300-400 dollars extra to light our homes. The liberals are trying to bankrupt the working class, simple as that.

Ya know what? Fuggit! Take our light bulbs, but you ain't touching my fucking gun(s)!!!

[boutons_deux]

"you ain't touching my fucking gun"

ah, remember the NRA-generated paranoia (NRA is nothing but the political tool of the guns&ammo industry) just after Barry was elected? He was gonna take all the guns and ammo. Caused a huge run on guns and esp ammo. Gun/killing fetishists were buying every bullet in sight. They all got duped, suckered by the guns&ammo industry. :lol

[CubanMustGo]

Damn, Darrin, do you ever post anything that is remotely true?

There's plenty of stuff you can post that supports many of your stalking points, but when you constantly post crap that a two-year old can disprove using Google, all it does is make you look stupid. You have done it so many times now that one would think you would learn.

The theory of "throw shit until some sticks" doesn't work when you keep shitting on yourself.

[ElNono]

I just figured the greens won't like all that mercury going into the landfill.

So the 'greens' is who you're afraid of, not the government...

[Drachen]

So the 'greens' is who you're afraid of, not the government...

Plus why is mercury going into landfills. These should be being recycled. HD, Lowes and Walmart all have drop offs.

[Wild Cobra]

Incandescent will be illegal and CFL's will probably join them.
I agree. It will happen in the near future.

they are toxic and have recycling problem.

Go green on electric use, but at what cost to the environment and recycling costs?

[ChumpDumper]

Now you care about the environment?

:lmao

[ElNono]

Curious, what 'recycling problems' are there for CFLs?

[Wild Cobra]

http://www.startribune.com/blogs/90608939.html
As near as I read, the article is accurate.

[Wild Cobra]

I replaced all of the bulbs in my apartment in 2007 with CFLs, then when I moved out, I switched the incandesents back in and brought those CFLs with me to the house we bought in 2008. I still have those bulbs, all in use and doing thier jobs quite well (except one which was broken during the move and yes I took the appropriate precautions). If they last at least a year longer, I will probably replace them as they burn out with LEDs (a year to allow the LED prices to come down). I guess in about a year or so, I can sell my box of incandescents (which came out of the sockets in my house) to some luddite for a shit ton of cash
Cheapskate.

At under $1 per CFL, not worth my time.

[Wild Cobra]

CFLs work great and produce great savings... I don't know exactly where the idea that they'll get outlawed anytime soon comes from...
I'll bet dollars to donuts that when LED's become affordable, there will be a push to outlaw fluorescents due to their poisons.

[ChumpDumper]

As near as I read, the article is accurate.Not very near.


Cheapskate.

At under $1 per CFL, not worth my time.What does this mean?

[Wild Cobra]

I hate big government telling us how to light our houses. Some of us don't make 300-400 dollars extra to light our homes. The liberals are trying to bankrupt the working class, simple as that.

Ya know what? Fuggit! Take our light bulbs, but you ain't touching my fucking gun(s)!!!
Maybe we can protect our light bulbs with our guns?

[Wild Cobra]

At under $1 per CFL, not worth my time.

What does this mean?
Not worth my time to save $1 a bulb. All my lights are CFL, and when I move, I'm not wasting my time taking them with me.

[ChumpDumper]

I'll bet dollars to donuts that when LED's become affordable, there will be a push to outlaw fluorescents due to their poisons.So LEDs will be affordable.

What are we bitching about again?

[ChumpDumper]

Not worth my time to save $1 a bulb. All my lights are CFL, and when I move, I'm not wasting my time taking them with me.Maybe he sold the house to a Republican and the incandescent bulbs were a selling point.

[Wild Cobra]

So LEDs will be affordable.

What are we bitching about again?
Am I bitching?

I would prefer to have LEDs. In fact, bought one last year, but it wasn't adequate, so I didn't buy any more.

[Wild Cobra]

Maybe he sold the house to a Republican and the incandescent bulbs were a selling point.
LOL...
If your biased closed mind wishes to believe that, I won't stop you.

I would be more prone to believe it to be a selling point to a family with little kids.

[ChumpDumper]

Am I bitching?

I would prefer to have LEDs. In fact, bought one last year, but it wasn't adequate, so I didn't buy any more.So when they're more affordable and come in brighter versions, you're there.


LOL...
If your biased closed mind wishes to believe that, I won't stop you.

I would be more prone to believe it to be a selling point to a family with little kids.If your biased and closed mind wishes to believe that.

I was just making a joke.

[Wild Cobra]

So when they're more affordable and come in brighter versions, you're there.
Absolutely

If your biased and closed mind wishes to believe that.
With your track record of trolling, what else am I to believe?

I was just making a joke.
Again, with your track record of trolling, what else am I to believe?

[ChumpDumper]

AbsolutelySo you disagree with Darrin's OP as well.

OK.


With your track record of trolling, what else am I to believe?I expect you to believe nothing but your biased and closed mind.


Again, with your track record of trolling, what else am I to believe?We'll add this to your track record of not being able to tell the difference.

[Drachen]

Cheapskate.

At under $1 per CFL, not worth my time.

I am a little confused, what are your referring to? The fact that I moved the bulbs from the apartment to the house? Or the fact that I have a box of incandescents?

If it is the former, remember that this happened in 2008. They were a little more expensive... Also, I was buying my first house so saving pennies was in order (as it is now). Additionally, I had a < 1 year old daughter and a special needs 10 year old. So yeah, I am a cheapskate. If I don't do things like that I don't get to buy the occasional 10 dollar beer or send my (now) 3 year old daughter to private school. That is tragic in my world.

If it is the latter, then I have to say I don't see the point in throwing away a perfectly good working item. Like I said, I can sell them to wingnuts next year.

(edit: now that I have read the rest of the thread it seems to be the former. Also I didn't move from one house to the next, I took the bulbs from my apartment and put them in the house I purchased)

edit 2: also, I do agree that they will likely outlaw the cfls when the LEDs become more competitive. Incremental progress.

[ChuckD]

I just figured the greens won't like all that mercury going into the landfill.


To everyone else in this thread..... "you lie"? Really? That's what you bring? :lol Sticks and stones, mo fo's, sticks and stones. :lol

If you're not a completely lazy fuck, you can take them to any Lowe's or Home Depot. Problem solved. Lowe's will also take any large rechargable batterires (laptop, lawn equipment, etc), and Home Depot will take almost any rechargeable battery, including personal AA and AAAs.

[fraga]

Oh dear sweet Darrin...

http://www.demotivationalposters.org/image/demotivational-poster/0906/godzilla-facepalm-godzilla-facepalm-face-palm-epic-fail-demotivational-poster-1245384435.jpg

[Agloco]

The theory of "throw shit until some sticks" doesn't work when you keep shitting on yourself.

:lol

[DMC]

I have two LED bulbs and only paid 20 bucks each. They've lasted for 5 years. Prior to those, I was replacing the incandescent bulbs every month.

[Wild Cobra]

I have two LED bulbs and only paid 20 bucks each. They've lasted for 5 years. Prior to those, I was replacing the incandescent bulbs every month.
Every month?

Seems a bit of an exaggeration. I have never had them last so short a time.

I don't recall LED bulbs of any proper lighting capacity being available that long ago either. What type are they?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Obama's biggest donor: GE

Biggest LED light bulb manufacturer: GE

:rolleyes

[ChumpDumper]

Obama's biggest donor: GE

Biggest LED light bulb manufacturer: GE

:rolleyesToo bad the legislation was passed in 2007.

[ChumpDumper]

And GE was barely in the top 20 if the sources I've seen are correct.

[Drachen]

Too bad the legislation was passed in 2007.


Thank you for immediately owning AHF rather than playing the ChumperDumper game of asking inane questions that go nowhere.

LOL, you said exactly what I was thinking as I was reading his post.

[Drachen]

Every month?

Seems a bit of an exaggeration. I have never had them last so short a time.

I don't recall LED bulbs of any proper lighting capacity being available that long ago either. What type are they?

The every month thing could be explainable, maybe he was changing *an* incandescent bulb every month, not all of his incandescent bulbs monthly.

As far as the rest, I hate to say it but I agree with you on this. I don't think that LED bulbs (outside of christmas lights) were commercially available until last year or the year before.

[DarrinS]

So the 'greens' is who you're afraid of, not the government...


The greens in the govt.

And I only have to go to Lowes or Home Depot to recycle my spent CFLs? How convenient. :rolleyes

God, you people really miss the point.

The govt removes phosphates from dishwasher detergent, leaving you with white film all over your dishes.

The govt mandated efficiency ratings on washing machines, making today's units much less effective than they were 10 years ago. --> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/08/science/08tier.html?_r=1&hpw

And now they want to replace bulbs that have worked great for decades. And bulbs don't even use that much energy compared to other major appliances.

[boutons_deux]

Darrin, may your environmental footprint be in a pile of anti-green Repug dogshit.

[MannyIsGod]

The greens in the govt.

And I only have to go to Lowes or Home Depot to recycle my spent CFLs? How convenient. :rolleyes

God, you people really miss the point.

The govt removes phosphates from dishwasher detergent, leaving you with white film all over your dishes.

The govt mandated efficiency ratings on washing machines, making today's units much less effective than they were 10 years ago. --> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/08/science/08tier.html?_r=1&hpw

And now they want to replace bulbs that have worked great for decades. And bulbs don't even use that much energy compared to other major appliances.

:lmao

We get the point. The point is that your lazy and that you'e a liar and when you don't flat out lie you use red herrings and strawmen like crazy.

Don't think these are insults, Darrin. They are accurate descriptions of your posting.

[DarrinS]

:lmao

We get the point. The point is that your lazy and that you'e a liar and when you don't flat out lie you use red herrings and strawmen like crazy.





You're --> you are


e.g. You're welcome.

[Winehole23]

Spelling smack. Strong.

[admiralsnackbar]

As the world gets more industrialized/developed, do people really think energy prices will ever go down? Why would the government bother mandating any kind of bulb when market forces will make consumers choose to save money?

You don't need a crystal ball to see that energy prices will continue to rise precipitously, and economies of scale will bring LED bulbs down in price.

EDIT-- Also: crying about the removal of phosphates from detergents? Really?

[DarrinS]

EDIT-- Also: crying about the removal of phosphates from detergents? Really?


Phosphate-free Cascade sucks balls.


Lemishine to the rescue.

[MannyIsGod]

you're --> you are


e.g. You're welcome.

l i a r

[fyatuk]

The every month thing could be explainable, maybe he was changing *an* incandescent bulb every month, not all of his incandescent bulbs monthly.

Sometime's with older houses, the wiring is kind of hinky. In my house (60 years old), when it was changed over to a fuse box to a circuit breaker, something went crazy with the kitchen light. It started blowing a lightbulb every month and the fixture burned out 3 times in a single year.

For some reason I switched to CFL and no problem since. Still haven't actually looked at the wiring to figure out what was wrong ;)

[Drachen]

As the world gets more industrialized/developed, do people really think energy prices will ever go down? Why would the government bother mandating any kind of bulb when market forces will make consumers choose to save money?

You don't need a crystal ball to see that energy prices will continue to rise precipitously, and economies of scale will bring LED bulbs down in price.

Planning ahead is better than catching up.

By forcing efficiency we are moving the demand curve to the right and lowering the slope of the energy price increase equation.

It affects all of us, not just the ones who are happily paying for 4-6 times more electricity than they need.

Darrin: You are saying that they don't use that much electricity?
The most popular bulb in the US is the 60 watt bulb. The standard bulb uses 60 watt hours or .06 Kwh and produces about 800 lumens.

Sylvania has a 60w replacement LED bulb which consumes .012 Kwh and produces about 810 lumens.

I recognize that in the grand scheme of things .048 Kwh is not a huge deal for an item which is on at most 5-7 hours a day (no source, just my own guess). This only really makes a difference of about 1 Kwh every 4 days (assuming the light is on 5 hours). Where it comes into play is the immense amount of bulbs that are in use in the US. I cant find the article but I read yesterday that there are 425 million 60 watt bulbs in use in the US. Assuming the average bulb is on an hour a day (energystar says the average bulb is on 3.13 hours per day, but that seems a little high to me so I am going more conservative). This would mean that by changing to LEDs the country would save 20,400,000 Kwh every day. My last bill from cps showed a charge of .09 cents per kwh which as you know is very low relative to the national price of electricity. Using this very low cost, that would mean that Americans would save 1,836,000 per day or 670,140,000 per year (much more if energystar is correct about how long the avg bulb is on/day). Also, the incandescents last about 750 hours to 1,000 hours and the LEDs last between 25,000 and 30,000 hours. The point here is that your assertion that this doesn't make a big difference is wrong. Also, remember, that I only used 60 watt bulbs. There are many other bulbs that would only serve to show even more benefit to the switch.

[DarrinS]

l i a r

You have become quite boutons-esque of late.

[DarrinS]

http://www.energysavers.gov/your_home/lighting_daylighting/index.cfm/mytopic=11980




Nationwide, artificial lighting consumes about 10% of a household's electricity use. Use of new lighting technologies can reduce lighting energy use in homes by 50%–75%. Upgrading 15 of the inefficient incandescent light bulbs in your home could save you about $50 per year.




Upgrading 15 incandescent bulbs

Cost $750

Savings $50

I'll pass

[Drachen]

http://www.energysavers.gov/your_home/lighting_daylighting/index.cfm/mytopic=11980




Upgrading 15 incandescent bulbs

Cost $750

Savings $50

I'll pass

Are you dying this year? Or are you going to just quit using light next year?

[DarrinS]

Are you dying this year? Or are you going to just quit using light next year?


I guess I would get a return on my investment in 15 short years.

By the way, Phillips has a 60W equivalent for the low price of $40/bulb.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&q=led+light+bulbs&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&wrapid=tlif130573769078810&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=13816059723532640450&sa=X&ei=V_rTTZGnIMK2twfb_NSrCg&ved=0CGcQ8wIwAQ#

[admiralsnackbar]

Are you dying this year? Or are you going to just quit using light next year?
Moreover, what makes Darren think the savings will only be $50 next year or thereafter? Last I checked, Earth's population was still increasing geometrically.

[DarrinS]

Moreover, what makes Darren think the savings will only be $50 next year or thereafter? Last I checked, Earth's population was still increasing geometrically.


So, the population increase will make the bulbs more efficient? Hmmm.

[admiralsnackbar]

So, the population increase will make the bulbs more efficient? Hmmm.
You aren't this dense.

[DarrinS]

You aren't this dense.


Yes, if energy costs go up, it will "save" more money, but the % energy savings will be same.


Who's dense?

[TeyshaBlue]

lol @ the % being static.

[ChumpDumper]

Damn, Darrin actively wants to be stupid.

[TeyshaBlue]

I'm sure the kwh rates will remain exactly the same..

[admiralsnackbar]

Yes, if energy costs go up, it will "save" more money, but the % energy savings will be same.


Who's dense?

I guess I am. Explain how you get from your first clause to the second.

[TeyshaBlue]

90% is just not enough!

[scott]

http://www.energysavers.gov/your_home/lighting_daylighting/index.cfm/mytopic=11980




Upgrading 15 incandescent bulbs

Cost $750

Savings $50

I'll pass

You simultaneously suck at deduction and math.

[ChumpDumper]

Darrin, do you ever think it might be a good idea to cut your losses in a thread, or does what you perceive to be your internets rep force you to hold on to stupidly untenable positions until grim death?

[Drachen]

I guess I would get a return on my investment in 15 short years.

By the way, Phillips has a 60W equivalent for the low price of $40/bulb.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&q=led+light+bulbs&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&wrapid=tlif130573769078810&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=13816059723532640450&sa=X&ei=V_rTTZGnIMK2twfb_NSrCg&ved=0CGcQ8wIwAQ#

If only you would have looked a little further. Phillips is the favorite to win the L-prize which is for a 60w replacement bulb in which 75% of its parts must be manufactured here, 75% of it must be assembled here, it must produce in excess of 900 lumens, last 25000 hours, consume 10 w, and be priced at $22. It is similar to the one on sale right now but a little brighter a little more energy efficient and a little cheaper. They are in the testing phase at the moment.


Additionally, the link you posted doesn't specify LED bulbs. Heck it even has a picture of a CFL in the article... Go to solarfest next year and you can get a four pack for free. HEB gives them away sometimes for free too. If not free, they are pretty cheap. You can save your money on electricity and not have to spend whatever fairy tale amount you come up with. Also, by the time those CFLs burn out, you can probably buy 100w replacement led's for $5 after inflation.

[Winehole23]

If only you would have looked a little furtherWould have required reading. Darrin's allergic.

[MannyIsGod]

:lmao

[DarrinS]

lol @ the % being static.


Assuming I turn on my lights for the same amount of time each day, how could my % energy saved be anything but?

[DarrinS]

If only you would have looked a little further. Phillips is the favorite to win the L-prize which is for a 60w replacement bulb in which 75% of its parts must be manufactured here, 75% of it must be assembled here, it must produce in excess of 900 lumens, last 25000 hours, consume 10 w, and be priced at $22. It is similar to the one on sale right now but a little brighter a little more energy efficient and a little cheaper. They are in the testing phase at the moment.


Who said they weren't?




Additionally, the link you posted doesn't specify LED bulbs. Heck it even has a picture of a CFL in the article... Go to solarfest next year and you can get a four pack for free. HEB gives them away sometimes for free too. If not free, they are pretty cheap. You can save your money on electricity and not have to spend whatever fairy tale amount you come up with. Also, by the time those CFLs burn out, you can probably buy 100w replacement led's for $5 after inflation.


The link showed a picture of both and I won't be buying any CFLs.

http://www.energysavers.gov/images/lighting_main_learn_more.jpg

[admiralsnackbar]

Assuming I turn on my lights for the same amount of time each day, how could my % energy saved be anything but?
By having a light source that throws out equivalent lumens per watt (10w vs 60-100w) such that you burn dramatically less energy for as much or more light. What's hard about that concept?

[Drachen]

Who said they weren't?

The link showed a picture of both and I won't be buying any CFLs.

http://www.energysavers.gov/images/lighting_main_learn_more.jpg

Then go Halogen incandescent. I don't know anything about them other than they are also part of the L-Prize.

[MannyIsGod]

Assuming I turn on my lights for the same amount of time each day, how could my % energy saved be anything but?

:lmao

:lmao

:lmao

:lmao

[DarrinS]

By having a light source that throws out equivalent lumens per watt (10w vs 60-100w) such that you burn dramatically less energy for as much or more light. What's hard about that concept?


I understand that. What do MY INDIVIDUAL savings have to do with an increasing population?

[fyatuk]

By having a light source that throws out equivalent lumens per watt (10w vs 60-100w) such that you burn dramatically less energy for as much or more light. What's hard about that concept?

Wow, you guys and Darrin are having completely different conversations at the moment...

The claim that started all this % BS got misconstrued somewhere, and Darrin (and I can't believe I'm saying this) was actually right in his statement.

Basically, he stated given that you replace a 60W incandescent with a 10W LED, the amount of energy you save there is static. Which is true. Just because more people use electricity, or energy costs more, doesn't mean that that one lightbulb is going to become more efficient. The actual amount of energy conserved is static (well, within a range that varies based on weather, solar flares, etc).

Not granted, at some point he oddly transitioned from talking about monetary savings to energy savings (and his monetary claims were just off), but he's correct in that the amount of energy saved from each lightbulb switched is static.

[admiralsnackbar]

I understand that. What do MY INDIVIDUAL savings have to do with an increasing population?
Higher population = greater demand = greater cost.

We can't control the right to reproduction, we can try to use better tech to make amenities we've become accustomed to (like electricity) more sustainable.

[DarrinS]

Wow, you guys and Darrin are having completely different conversations at the moment...

The claim that started all this % BS got misconstrued somewhere, and Darrin (and I can't believe I'm saying this) was actually right in his statement.

Basically, he stated given that you replace a 60W incandescent with a 10W LED, the amount of energy you save there is static. Which is true. Just because more people use electricity, or energy costs more, doesn't mean that that one lightbulb is going to become more efficient. The actual amount of energy conserved is static (well, within a range that varies based on weather, solar flares, etc).



Thanks. For a minute a thought I was talking to a bunch of zombies.




Not granted, at some point he oddly transitioned from talking about monetary savings to energy savings (and his monetary claims were just off), but he's correct in that the amount of energy saved from each lightbulb switched is static.

Well, I stopped talking dollars because the cost of energy and the value of the dollars is, admittedly, not static.

[DarrinS]

Higher population = greater demand = greater cost.


sigh



We can't control the right to reproduction, we can try to use better tech to make amenities we've become accustomed to (like electricity) more sustainable.


God, I should hope not.

[admiralsnackbar]

Basically, he stated given that you replace a 60W incandescent with a 10W LED, the amount of energy you save there is static. Which is true. Just because more people use electricity, or energy costs more, doesn't mean that that one lightbulb is going to become more efficient. The actual amount of energy conserved is static (well, within a range that varies based on weather, solar flares, etc).

Please expand on this -- I'm having trouble following how there is an equivalence in efficiency between 10 and 60 watts, be it on an individual household level, or a national one.

[admiralsnackbar]

sigh

Instead of sighing, you could make your argument intelligible. Try it -- I'm open to learning something.

[TeyshaBlue]

Just remember, this whole thread was predicated on Darrin's delusional Federal Mandate of LED bulbs.

[Drachen]

Wow, you guys and Darrin are having completely different conversations at the moment...

The claim that started all this % BS got misconstrued somewhere, and Darrin (and I can't believe I'm saying this) was actually right in his statement.

Basically, he stated given that you replace a 60W incandescent with a 10W LED, the amount of energy you save there is static. Which is true. Just because more people use electricity, or energy costs more, doesn't mean that that one lightbulb is going to become more efficient. The actual amount of energy conserved is static (well, within a range that varies based on weather, solar flares, etc).

Not granted, at some point he oddly transitioned from talking about monetary savings to energy savings (and his monetary claims were just off), but he's correct in that the amount of energy saved from each lightbulb switched is static.


Yes when he shifted his arguement from being that we wouldn't save a lot of energy over to monetary savings then to the non-effects of rising population and rates on individual energy savings if he were to switch then he finally made a true statement. Unfortunately, no one was aware that he had made the switch from money to individual energy savings.

It is true if you purchase one of these bulbs you will be using 1/6th of the electricity that you are now on the lighting from that socket. No amount of population increase or rate rise will push you from that fantastically efficient standard to an even better spectacularly efficient standard all other things being equal.

[fyatuk]

Please expand on this -- I'm having trouble following how there is an equivalence in efficiency between 10 and 60 watts, be it on an individual household level, or a national one.

It's not an equivalence of energy. It's a static ratio.

He's saying this:

{Amount of Energy used by 10W LED} / {Amount of Energy used by 60W incandescent} = a constant number (X).

Real energy savings would be X * light usage.
Real monetary savings would be X * light usage * price

The X stays the same.

[fyatuk]

Yes when he shifted his arguement from being that we wouldn't save a lot of energy over to monetary savings then to the non-effects of rising population and rates on individual energy savings if he were to switch then he finally made a true statement. Unfortunately, no one was aware that he had made the switch from money to individual energy savings.

Yep, he slid around a bit until he finally hit something right ;)

I'm not surprised that the last switch went unnoticed, just felt like helping clarify things.

[admiralsnackbar]

I see -- thanks for that, fyatuk. I don't entirely understand why Darrin changed his tack to one that had very little bearing on the conversation we were having up until then (or, alternatively, why I thought we were discussing something we weren't), but at least I see what's happened.

[DarrinS]

Yes when he shifted his arguement from being that we wouldn't save a lot of energy over to monetary savings then to the non-effects of rising population and rates on individual energy savings if he were to switch then he finally made a true statement. Unfortunately, no one was aware that he had made the switch from money to individual energy savings.


Actually, I started with money and shifted to % energy saved. The assinine argument about population growth came from admiralsnackfart.

start here: http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5247244&postcount=69

[TeyshaBlue]

Actually, you started with a flawed premise (again) and upon being called on it, you began furiously obfuscating and rephrasing.

[DarrinS]

Actually, you started with a flawed premise (again) and upon being called on it, you began furiously obfuscating and rephrasing.


"furiously obfuscating" --lol

Meh, go fuck yourself. I'll stock up on the soon-to-be-outlawed bulbs. By the time I run out, maybe the LEDs will be worth it. Right now, they are not.

[admiralsnackbar]

:lol Who do you think you're fooling Darrin? I brought up market forces to allay your baseless paranoiac posts that Big Green Brother was going to force you to spend money on lightbulbs you couldn't afford. Considering this, I'm not sure why you're crowing like the victor when somebody else had to explain your response to my original statement which, as it turns out, has little to do with your original point and nothing to do with mine.

[DarrinS]

:lol Who do you think you're fooling Darrin? I brought up market forces to allay your baseless paranoiac posts that Big Green Brother was going to force you to spend money on lightbulbs you couldn't afford. Considering this, I'm not sure why you're crowing like the victor when somebody else had to explain your response to my original statement which, as it turns out, has little to do with your original point and nothing to do with mine.


I like having choices. If I want to buy a huge, gas-guzzling truck or SUV, that is my choice (for now).

[TeyshaBlue]

"furiously obfuscating" --lol

Meh, go fuck yourself. I'll stock up on the soon-to-be-outlawed bulbs. By the time I run out, maybe the LEDs will be worth it. Right now, they are not.

You mean those Federally Mandated LED's, right?:lmao:lmao

[TeyshaBlue]

Meh, go fuck yourself.

Nice. Your conversion to boutons is almost complete.

[DarrinS]

You mean those Federally Mandated LED's, right?:lmao:lmao


Federally mandated CFLs or LEDs. Vast choices you have.

[TeyshaBlue]

Except there's no mandate. But other than that, yeah.:rolleyes:lol

[admiralsnackbar]

I like having choices. If I want to buy a huge, gas-guzzling truck or SUV, that is my choice (for now).
And that concludes another installment of Non-Sequitur Theater. And remember, kids: umbrella.

[TeyshaBlue]

And that concludes another installment of Non-Sequitur Theater. And remember, kids: umbrella.

And remember to return your strawman to the full, upright position.:lol

[MannyIsGod]

Darrin is just but hurt that no one buys his bullshit and his lies.

L - I - A - R.

[Drachen]

I like having choices. If I want to buy a huge, gas-guzzling truck or SUV, that is my choice (for now).

And its you and others like you that shift the demand curve to the left Increasing equilibrium price. Also the government mandated standards not products. If your 100 year old horse can't keep up, maybe you should retire him from the race.

[fyatuk]

And its you and others like you that shift the demand curve to the left Increasing equilibrium price. Also the government mandated standards not products. If your 100 year old horse can't keep up, maybe you should retire him from the race.

It is rather absurd to complain about the government setting efficiency standards, when they've been doing similar for decades with air quality, water quality, auto safety, etc.

Granted, it might be appropriate to complain about the government setting standards the eliminates an old technology (incandescent bulbs) before the replacement tech (LED) is ready for mass production. Probably could use a few more years before phasing out low efficiency bulbs.

[Drachen]

It is rather absurd to complain about the government setting efficiency standards, when they've been doing similar for decades with air quality, water quality, auto safety, etc.

Granted, it might be appropriate to complain about the government setting standards the eliminates an old technology (incandescent bulbs) before the replacement tech (LED) is ready for mass production. Probably could use a few more years before phasing out low efficiency bulbs.

LEDs, however, are not the only replacement tech. There are several different options to choose from which are ready for prime time. Also, if they shifted the deadline to two years from now, then we would be having this conversation 2 years from now.

[fyatuk]

LEDs, however, are not the only replacement tech. There are several different options to choose from which are ready for prime time. Also, if they shifted the deadline to two years from now, then we would be having this conversation 2 years from now.

Quite true, although most of the other replacement techs have some big flaws. Like CFLs; a LOT of people I know can't stand the way they light, they often don't fit into covered fixtures, etc.

I'm not sure we would be having this conversation a few years from now. Another couple years with manufacturers knowing what's coming could really drop the price to the point where people wouldn't care. I think the fact that there's one lightbulb up for the prize when there's a bunch more manufacturers tells a big story. It's already been established that prices for LED bulbs are expected to drop drastically over the next few years.

I know nothing is guaranteed, but it's fairly obvious LED tech isn't quite ready for mass consumption, and that seems to be the tech with the fewest flaws going forward.

[Drachen]

Quite true, although most of the other replacement techs have some big flaws. Like CFLs; a LOT of people I know can't stand the way they light, they often don't fit into covered fixtures, etc.

I'm not sure we would be having this conversation a few years from now. Another couple years with manufacturers knowing what's coming could really drop the price to the point where people wouldn't care. I think the fact that there's one lightbulb up for the prize when there's a bunch more manufacturers tells a big story. It's already been established that prices for LED bulbs are expected to drop drastically over the next few years.

I know nothing is guaranteed, but it's fairly obvious LED tech isn't quite ready for mass consumption, and that seems to be the tech with the fewest flaws going forward.

Oh I think you misunderstand, I am saying that without this deadline, they wouldn't be this far along with the R&D. So we would just be having this conversation later. If Phillips was the only one who could pull it off, then this means that they were forward looking enough to have already started the research on this before the prize was announced, or that they have a spent the time/money on a far more capable research department than any of their competitors... Either way, they are about to be rewarded for such long term thinking.

[ChumpDumper]

It is rather absurd to complain about the government setting efficiency standards, when they've been doing similar for decades with air quality, water quality, auto safety, etc.

Granted, it might be appropriate to complain about the government setting standards the eliminates an old technology (incandescent bulbs) before the replacement tech (LED) is ready for mass production. Probably could use a few more years before phasing out low efficiency bulbs.Then it's a good thing they are taking a few more years.

[ElNono]

The greens in the govt.

And I only have to go to Lowes or Home Depot to recycle my spent CFLs? How convenient. :rolleyes

You don't have to. Can you point out where you're required to do so?


God, you people really miss the point.

Government issuing egregious regulations isn't new.
In this particular case, this just isn't an egregious regulation (phasing out incandescent bulbs).

[ChumpDumper]

Darrin, what is your point?

It certainly isn't that the federal government is mandating LED bulb, because that is a lie.

[Drachen]

Then it's a good thing they are taking a few more years.

DOH! you are correct. It is only 100 watts next year right? or is it going to other way?

[ChumpDumper]

Federally mandated CFLs or LEDs. Vast choices you have.Actually this is another lie -- but you would have to go to Home Depot to find out.

[Drachen]

Darrin, what is your point?

It certainly isn't that the federal government is mandating LED bulb, because that is a lie.


That is his point.

[ChumpDumper]

DOH! you are correct. It is only 100 watts next year right? or is it going to other way?I'd have to look it up, but I'm pretty sure the very low wattage and very high wattage and colored incandescent bulbs are always going to be available -- and there are already 100w equivalent incandescent bulbs available that meet the new efficiency standard. So Darrin is a complete liar for saying he won't have the choice and a complete idiot for stocking up on inefficient incandescents.

[baseline bum]

Wow, usually Darrin runs and hides when he gets shit on in a thread.

[ChumpDumper]

Wow, usually Darrin runs and hides when he gets shit on in a thread.He finally left once he couldn't move the goalposts anymore.

[ChumpDumper]

I'd have to look it up, but I'm pretty sure the very low wattage and very high wattage and colored incandescent bulbs are always going to be available -- and there are already 100w equivalent incandescent bulbs available that meet the new efficiency standard. So Darrin is a complete liar for saying he won't have the choice and a complete idiot for stocking up on inefficient incandescents.Hey Darrin, I saw these at HEB, two for five dollars.

[RandomGuy]

All the makings of a classic politics thread. :lol


[Stupid easily falsifiable statement.]


[Facts directly contradicting Darrin's statement]


[Insults liberals for believing facts that contradict him, spins and prevaricates]

et cetera, ad infinitum.

[LnGrrrR]

So, the population increase will make the bulbs more efficient? Hmmm.

:lmao

I guess DarrinS thinks we'll find another holy grail of cheap, dense, plentiful energy. Maybe dark energy?

[ChumpDumper]

I just want to make sure Darrin understands what his choices in light bulbs will actually be in the future.

Darrin, do you actually understand after all your ignorant myths were dispelled?

[RandomGuy]

:lmao

I guess DarrinS thinks we'll find another holy grail of cheap, dense, plentiful energy. Maybe dark energy?

If only we could figure out a way to tap into the endless supply of right-wing bloviating. Shit, Yonivore would be considered a national asset, bless his pointy head.

[RandomGuy]

I just want to make sure Darrin understands what his choices in light bulbs will actually be in the future.

Darrin, do you actually understand after all your ignorant myths were dispelled?

I could understand his desire to have a pimpin Hummer or something. That at least looks cool.

But there is no real similar "neato" factor for incandescent light bulbs.

Economically, the LED will completely pwn the incandenscents in the very near future, if they don't already.

Darrin has the right to light cigars with $100 bills in much the same fashion.

It isn't Big Bad Green Government that forces regular people to light cigars with matches or little chunks of wood. It is economics.

Keep fighting the good fight to spend money stupidly Darrin. I wish you luck.

[fyatuk]

But there is no real similar "neato" factor for incandescent light bulbs.

Except that some people prefer certain types of light. A lot of people don't like flourescent light. I can't really stand LED light (too directional, needs to be diffused, but that basically gets rid of it's brightness, hopefully they'll get a good way around that in the future).

People have reasons for preferring one light source over another. Other's might not share it, but the preference still has meaning.

[ChumpDumper]

Except that some people prefer certain types of light. A lot of people don't like flourescent light. I can't really stand LED light (too directional, needs to be diffused, but that basically gets rid of it's brightness, hopefully they'll get a good way around that in the future).

People have reasons for preferring one light source over another. Other's might not share it, but the preference still has meaning.Incandescent lights are and will be available in the future.

[fyatuk]

Incandescent lights are and will be available in the future.

At least unless the law changes any further. I'll probably switch out to halogen incandescent's once my gf moves in, since she doesn't like CFLs.

I was responding to RandomGuy implying he couldn't understand anyone wanting to keep using incandescent light bulbs.

[ChumpDumper]

At least unless the law changes any further.When do you think that will happen?

[RandomGuy]

Just to get some hard facts:
Cost of a 100W incandescent equivalent (assume they are measuring lumens, the measurement of light): $47.89, life span 50,000 hours.

I found a cost comparison here:
http://eartheasy.com/live_led_bulbs_comparison.html

Given they have an obvious viewpoint, I decided to do some verification of their assumptions and found their 20 cents per kWh to be waaay too much.
But to be more realisitic I looked up the actual cost of electricity in San Antonio:
http://www.cpsenergy.com/files/Rate_ResidentialElectric030110.pdf
6 cents plus a bit for peak usage. Call it 6.2 cents to be fair.

The cost comparison assumption of the price of electricity is the most critical assumption.

Re-running their analysis, using San Antonio rates means that running the same 50,000 hours of illumination gets the following costs for a 100w equivalent:

LED:Bulbs: $48
Electricity: $40.30
Total cost: $88.30

Florescent:
Bulbs: $20
Electricity: $62
Total cost: $82

Incandescant:
Bulbs: $52.08
Electricity: $310
Total cost: $362.08

(edit)
Incandescant - LED = $273.78
Most houses have more than one light bulb. Our little house has about 14, by my mental count.
If you have just ten in your house, then that is a total difference of some $2,737.80 over that time period.
(end)

Given electricity rates rise over time, that differential will certainly be more, making that figure somewhat conservative.

Currently Florescents seem to be cheapest by a smidge.

Halve the cost of an LED, and that edge disappears, especially given the fragility and mercury contents of the florescents.

Darrin has every right to keep spending 10 times the electricity on lighting his house.

Did I mention that the LED bulb only gives out 5% of the heat that incandescants do?

Any one bulb or even five probably don't put out that much heat, but when you are paying to cool your house most of the year, that extra heat isn't all that welcome from an efficiency standpoint. My gut says the difference probably isn't all that much money-wise, just to be fair. Still it is a minor consideration.

[RandomGuy]

Except that some people prefer certain types of light. A lot of people don't like flourescent light. I can't really stand LED light (too directional, needs to be diffused, but that basically gets rid of it's brightness, hopefully they'll get a good way around that in the future).

Based on the designs I saw in my browsing, I would say they are working on that too, and seem to have some solutions already.

Not an insurmountable engineering challenge at all.

Given the difference between the 50,000 hour cost of the incandescent and LED (some $200 or so by my calculation above) it would seem they have a good "budget" to work with to solve that problem.

[RandomGuy]

The ONLY reason I would have incandescent light bulbs is to replace the LED's when I move out and take the LEDs with me. :D

[fyatuk]

When do you think that will happen?

I have no thoughts on it. That why I used unless instead of until. Given the enviromentally conscious, energy conscious direction of society, it wouldn't surprise me to see them continually restrict the efficiency requirements, but it also wouldn't surprise me to never see them change again.


Based on the designs I saw in my browsing, I would say they are working on that too, and seem to have some solutions already.

I would imagine so. When they get an LED bulb I like, I'll gladly switch. There's no reason not to if you are fine with the light they provide.

Unless of course, better, more efficient lighting style pops up.

[Drachen]

The ONLY reason I would have incandescent light bulbs is to replace the LED's when I move out and take the LEDs with me. :D

Some cheapskate already suggested that he did that a few pages back. You unoriginal cheapskate!

[RandomGuy]

I have no thoughts on it. That why I used unless instead of until. Given the enviromentally conscious, energy conscious direction of society, it wouldn't surprise me to see them continually restrict the efficiency requirements, but it also wouldn't surprise me to never see them change again.


Given that the incandescents are about 4 times as costly to operate, it would not seem to me to need any federal mandates.

I could easily see your local utility even providing some rebates for the things, since they would benefit by not having to build as many new power plants, giving LED's even more pwnage.

[boutons_deux]

"it would not seem to me to need any federal mandates."

women bitch because fluo and LEDs are "cooler" light than incandescents.

[Drachen]

Given that the incandescents are about 4 times as costly to operate, it would not seem to me to need any federal mandates.

I could easily see your local utility even providing some rebates for the things, since they would benefit by not having to build as many new power plants, giving LED's even more pwnage.

I have been going to Solarfest San Antonio for the last three years and CPS has been handing out 2 to 4 packs of CFLs for free each year. Additionally, every once in a while you can go to HEB and walk past the CFLs and notice a coupon from CPS taped to them so that you can buy a four pack for free. I would imagine that this would switch to LEDs pretty soon (2 years or so from now).

[fyatuk]

"it would not seem to me to need any federal mandates."

women bitch because fluo and LEDs are "cooler" light than incandescents.

It's a proper complaint. Mostly that references the frequency of the light. With incandescents, it's skewed towards yellow (similar to the sun. "warm" section of the spectrum), while flourescent and LED's skew more towards blue ("cold" section of the spectrum).

Light frequencies can greatly affect the ability to see clearly for some people and in some situations. I can't really read things lit by an LED in an otherwise dark environment. Weird, but there you go.

Granted, the frequency of the light can easily be changed, as long as you don't mind lowering the intensity.

[fyatuk]

your mom minds lowering the intensity

No she doesn't, she's been in a casket for 8 years as of this past Monday.

[boutons_deux]

Philips new energy efficient retrofit halogen lamp category

New energy efficient halogen lamp category

In light of this, Philips has patented a new technology, which leads to huge levels of energy saving for halogen lamps. The new range, called Edore, saves 50% on energy and last three times longer compared to an ordinary incandescent light bulb.

http://www.newscenter.philips.com/main/standard/about/news/article-15615.wpd

[LnGrrrR]

The radio jockeys in Hawaii must read whatever DarrinS has been reading; I heard this brought up today by some idiot.

[ChumpDumper]

Oh, it's a talking point alright. It sounds good to the fatally ignorant partisan hacks out there -- e.g., Darrin.

[RandomGuy]

Oh, it's a talking point alright. It sounds good to the fatally ignorant partisan hacks out there -- e.g., Darrin.

... who has completely abandoned this steaming turd of a thread.

No matter. I am adding this one to my subscribed threads. It is a politics forum classic in the making.

[RandomGuy]

The radio jockeys in Hawaii must read whatever DarrinS has been reading; I heard this brought up today by some idiot.

"I read it on the internets, it must be true. Fowarded emails don't lie."

Too bad you can't run cars on stupidity. :(

[ChumpDumper]

We should bump it every once in awhile to see how many inefficient bulbs Darrin has hoarded.

[RandomGuy]

We should bump it every once in awhile to see how many inefficient bulbs Darrin has hoarded.

Thread worthy.

To bad the polls aren't working. That would make for a fun poll question. "How many light bulbs do you think are in Darrin's hoard?" :lol

[Drachen]

My question is: Since I live in a Red State, will my box of incandescent bulbs rise in value with the passage of time much like a Honus Wagner, or Mickey Mantle card?

[RandomGuy]

My question is: Since I live in a Red State, will my box of incandescent bulbs rise in value with the passage of time much like a Honus Wagner, or Mickey Mantle card?

Yeah, but you are gonna have to lay down a Thunderdome style smackdown on Darrin for those bulbs.

Two men enter, one man leaves!... with overpriced light bulbs.

:rollin

[Drachen]

" in a world where mandates dont exist Two men will enter thunderdome flea market on the south side. One with 35 examples of 100 year old antique tech, the other with a large amount of currency. They will exchange these items with one another. Both will leave happy, only one man will be right."

[TeyshaBlue]

" in a world where mandates dont exist Two men will enter thunderdome flea market on the south side. One with 35 examples of 100 year old antique tech, the other with a large amount of currency. They will exchange these items with one another. Both will leave happy, only one man will be right."

Fucking genius. :tu

[Winehole23]

Good1, drachen. ;]

[TeyshaBlue]

Mornin' Winehole.

[Winehole23]

Yo. Coffeetime?

[Winehole23]

Weird, how this thread became the comfy old shoe.

[TeyshaBlue]

Yo. Coffeetime?

Mos def.

[Winehole23]

Dropped in on a club thread this morning. I like to have killed it.

[Winehole23]

Til TC gets back, anyway.

[RandomGuy]

" in a world where mandates dont exist Two men will enter thunderdome flea market on the south side. One with 35 examples of 100 year old antique tech, the other with a large amount of currency. They will exchange these items with one another. Both will leave happy, only one man will be right."

:lol

That was goooood. Luckily for me I had already swallowed my sip of coffee.

[RandomGuy]

Weird, how this thread became the comfy old shoe.

The club as the Free Quattro Razor thread, we have "Federally Mandated LED lightbulbs"

[TeyshaBlue]

The club as the Free Quattro Razor thread, we have "Federally Mandated LED lightbulbs"

We could do worse. So mote it be.

[RandomGuy]

Ah well, coffee break is over. Back to preparing a list of stuff to bother some junior accounting/legal clerk about.

[Winehole23]

Is that an apology for how you just sucked, or about how you're preparing to suck right now? :p:

[Winehole23]

(to work with you then)

[Winehole23]

luego, RG.

[Winehole23]

Nice. Your conversion to boutons is almost complete.Long since if you go by the trend of posting.

Being open to the possibility that DarrinS has not yet undergone thoroughgoing tribal chainemail-bot conversion, is a quaint piety of a discarded, derided humanism, and is increasingly untenable as a rational point of view. ihmo.

[Winehole23]

It's faith based, like most of what Darrin promotes.

[Winehole23]

scare quotes around "faith based"

[DarrinS]

It's faith based, like most of what Darrin promotes.


Can you list one example?

[Winehole23]

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179874&page=1

[TeyshaBlue]

Beat my slow ass to it.

[TeyshaBlue]

:lol:toast

[Winehole23]

Did Darrin forget which thread he wuz droppin in on?

[DarrinS]

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179874&page=1


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Independence_and_Security_Act_of_2007#Incan descent_lights

[DarrinS]

Hmmm. Canadians delaying their compliance.

http://www.gazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p1/2011/2011-04-16/html/reg1-eng.html

[Winehole23]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Independence_and_Security_Act_of_2007#Incan descent_lightshttp://www.myboxingfans.com/2009/06/did-duane-bobick-get-a-fair-shake/

[TeyshaBlue]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Independence_and_Security_Act_of_2007#Incan descent_lights

Bulbs outside this range (roughly, light bulbs currently less than 40 watts or more than 150 watts) are exempt from the ban. Also exempt are several classes of speciality lights, including appliance lamps, "rough service" bulbs, 3-way, colored lamps, and plant lights.
Fail.

More fail.

The lighting industry notes that the act only sets energy-use rules that traditional incandescents cannot meet, prompting the ban. But halogen incandescents do meet the standard.

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11072/1131657-113.stm#ixzz1NHo0t8LL

[TeyshaBlue]

Hmmm. Canadians delaying their compliance.

http://www.gazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p1/2011/2011-04-16/html/reg1-eng.html

Hmmm...Darrin erecting a non sequitur.

[Drachen]

Fucking genius. :tu


Good1, drachen. ;]


:lol

That was goooood. Luckily for me I had already swallowed my sip of coffee.


Thanks Fellas, RG posted thunderdome, and for some reason I thought it would make a decent flea market name. Kinda grew from there.


The club as the Free Quattro Razor thread, we have "Federally Mandated LED lightbulbs"

Keep it going, little by little, day by day.


http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179874&page=1

THIS was freakin funny!

[TeyshaBlue]

....and DarrinS dissappears in a puff of logic.

[Winehole23]

Hmmm...Darrin erecting a non sequiturPadding.

Like a cat, darrin tries to cover his more conspicuous losses. He piles on indiscriminately, hoping to turn the page.

[Winehole23]

Which he did, with only one post.

[TeyshaBlue]

Rediscovered 8 O'Clock Columbian whole bean this morning. That's some good stuff.

[Winehole23]

Sulawesie Kalossi.

Anderson's Coffee (http://www.andersonscoffee.com/coffee.html). DUZ ship.

[TeyshaBlue]

They have Guatemalean coffees and don't carry Huehuetenango?:depressedhttp://www.beansmith.com/guatemalahuehuetenangocoffee.aspx?variation=43

I've never tried an Indonesian coffee. I think I'll order a pound on your recommendation.:toast

[TeyshaBlue]

Ok, just popped for 2 pounds. Better be good, WH.

[DarrinS]

Bulbs outside this range (roughly, light bulbs currently less than 40 watts or more than 150 watts) are exempt from the ban. Also exempt are several classes of speciality lights, including appliance lamps, "rough service" bulbs, 3-way, colored lamps, and plant lights.
Fail.



In other words, the most common incandescent bulbs ARE part of the ban.





More fail.

The lighting industry notes that the act only sets energy-use rules that traditional incandescents cannot meet, prompting the ban. But halogen incandescents do meet the standard.




I KNOW that ther are other technology choices other than LEDs. Thread title is a LIE LIE LIE! Oh, the humanity!

[Winehole23]

Ok, just popped for 2 pounds. Better be good, WH.
Your liberty, your dollar.

I'd stay away from the aged variety until you've tried a few others.

[Winehole23]

Seriously though, if the coffee doesn't work I'll pick you new one.

[Winehole23]

My mom's hooked on their decaf. DECAF!

[Winehole23]

http://i.ehow.com/images/a07/c0/ho/open-old-dictaphone-microcassette-recorder-800X800.jpg
Thread title is a LIE LIE LIE!

[MannyIsGod]

:lol

[Winehole23]

Oh, and thanx for the link, TB.

[Winehole23]

In other words, the most common incandescent bulbs ARE part of the ban.Had you limited yourself to this reasonable kernel, this thread would not exist or would shortly perish.

[TeyshaBlue]

In other words, the most common incandescent bulbs ARE part of the ban.

In other words, you were proven demonstrably wrong. Again.

Nothing new with the inclusion that you simply cannot admit it.

That's ok, Darrinbot. We'll admit it for you.:lmao

[TeyshaBlue]

Had you limited yourself to this reasonable kernel, this thread would not exist or would shortly perish.

Reasonable don't have a chair at his table.

[Winehole23]

(bad)

[Winehole23]

I laughed. Many times.

Thread delivers. :tu

[Winehole23]

Reasonable don't have a chair at his table.Maybe it comes like a thief in the night, struggling at yr window casement?

[Winehole23]

Quien sabe?

[RandomGuy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Independence_and_Security_Act_of_2007#Incan descent_lights

And the next page of reference #23, used in that wiki article that you think supports your erroneous conclusion:

http://homerepair.about.com/od/electricalrepair/ss/2007_energybill_4.htm


One major point of consumer confusion is the misconception that all existing incandescent bulbs will go away in 2012.

You have, once again, failed.

Post the law, with reference to where the LED lights are "mandated", or post not. There is no try.

From the description, all it does is simply mandate a certain amount of energy efficiency per watt and provides a rather long list of excemptions.

[RandomGuy]

Also posted by myself a page or two back, but unaddressed, as of yet by the OP:

--------------------------------------------------
Just to get some hard facts:
Cost of a 100W incandescent equivalent (assume they are measuring lumens, the measurement of light): $47.89, life span 50,000 hours.

I found a cost comparison here:
http://eartheasy.com/live_led_bulbs_comparison.html

Given they have an obvious viewpoint, I decided to do some verification of their assumptions and found their 20 cents per kWh to be waaay too much.
But to be more realisitic I looked up the actual cost of electricity in San Antonio:
http://www.cpsenergy.com/files/Rate_ResidentialElectric030110.pdf
6 cents plus a bit for peak usage. Call it 6.2 cents to be fair.

The cost comparison assumption of the price of electricity is the most critical assumption.

Re-running their analysis, using San Antonio rates means that running the same 50,000 hours of illumination gets the following costs for a 100w equivalent:

LED:Bulbs: $48
Electricity: $40.30
Total cost: $88.30

Florescent:
Bulbs: $20
Electricity: $62
Total cost: $82

Incandescant:
Bulbs: $52.08
Electricity: $310
Total cost: $362.08

(edit)
Incandescant - LED = $273.78
Most houses have more than one light bulb. Our little house has about 14, by my mental count.
If you have just ten in your house, then that is a total difference of some $2,737.80 over that time period.
(end)

Given electricity rates rise over time, that differential will certainly be more, making that figure somewhat conservative.

Currently Florescents seem to be cheapest by a smidge.

Halve the cost of an LED, and that edge disappears, especially given the fragility and mercury contents of the florescents.

Darrin has every right to keep spending 10 times the electricity on lighting his house.
Did I mention that the LED bulb only gives out 5% of the heat that incandescants do?

Any one bulb or even five probably don't put out that much heat, but when you are paying to cool your house most of the year, that extra heat isn't all that welcome from an efficiency standpoint. My gut says the difference probably isn't all that much money-wise, just to be fair. Still it is a minor consideration.

---------------------------------------------

Just so it is here too. :D

[RandomGuy]

Lastly by the way Darrin:

The thing that created this soupcon of sillyness:

Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007


Please quote the act and how exactly it supports a federal "mandate" for $50 LED lightbulbs. I would even settle for a fair implied mandate.

I haven't read it, but I'm not doing your work for you. Bullshit has been called.

[DarrinS]

Lastly by the way Darrin:

The thing that created this soupcon of sillyness:

Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007


Please quote the act and how exactly it supports a federal "mandate" for $50 LED lightbulbs. I would even settle for a fair implied mandate.

I haven't read it, but I'm not doing your work for you. Bullshit has been called.


I've already admitted this. http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5259340&postcount=196


I UNDERSTAND that the choices will be halogen incandescents, CFLs, and LEDs. CFLs and LEDs are non-starters (for me, at least). I'll go with halogens.

[ChumpDumper]

I've already admitted this. http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5259340&postcount=196


I UNDERSTAND that the choices will be halogen incandescents, CFLs, and LEDs. CFLs and LEDs are non-starters (for me, at least). I'll go with halogens.So you aren't hoarding inefficient incandescents? OP is a LIE LIE LIE!

[TeyshaBlue]

I've already admitted this. http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5259340&postcount=196


I UNDERSTAND that the choices will be halogen incandescents, CFLs, and LEDs. CFLs and LEDs are non-starters (for me, at least). I'll go with halogens.

So, we can now establish that incadescents are not banned. Finally.http://www.audioandanarchy.com/images/smilies/fack.png

[Winehole23]

No no, Darrin wasn't saying that at all. Just the opposite, the way I scan it. Scoffing dismissal.

[ChumpDumper]

So after nine pages of talking point regurgitation and ignorant bitching, Darrin admits that his federally mandated incandescent bulbs will cost $3 each.

Closer to $2 each if he buys in bulk to hoard them.

[Winehole23]

Anyway, bitching is free. Darrin seems to consider it a virtue to lie and cheat for the right side and an omission of conscience to fail to.

[Winehole23]

Fuck that guyRight?

[Winehole23]

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5259231&postcount=1

[DarrinS]

Anyway, bitching is free. Darrin seems to consider it a virtue to lie and cheat for the right side and an omission of conscience to fail to.

You so virtuous.

[DarrinS]

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5259231&postcount=1


It's still a political forum, no?

[TeyshaBlue]

You so virtuous.

He has the ability to be wrong....a critical piece of intellectual honesty you seem to lack.

[DarrinS]

He has the ability to be wrong....a critical piece of intellectual honesty you seem to lack.

I already admitted my mistake. Your failure to recognize that is not my problem.

[Winehole23]

It's still a political forum, no?Just barely. Thanks for sharing.

[RandomGuy]

I've already admitted this. http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5259340&postcount=196


I UNDERSTAND that the choices will be halogen incandescents, CFLs, and LEDs. CFLs and LEDs are non-starters (for me, at least). I'll go with halogens.

Interesting. Halogen. I will get you a cost comparison on that. Not that I think you might care, but it interests me to know how they stack up. I'll get it back in a few.

[Winehole23]

You so virtuous.For the record: I claim no virtue for myself for pointing out your many flaws.

[Winehole23]

Indeed, there is very little honor in it...

[DarrinS]

Interesting. Halogen. I will get you a cost comparison on that. Not that I think you might care, but it interests me to know how they stack up. I'll get it back in a few.


As I understand it, halogens aren't even more efficient, they just last longer. So, I'm a bit curious how they would pass new federal efficiency standards.

[ChumpDumper]

As I understand it, halogens aren't even more efficient, they just last longer. So, I'm a bit curious how they would pass new federal efficiency standards.

[DarrinS]

<sigh>


Yes, halogens produce more light per unit of energy, but they still waste a lot of that energy in the form of heat. A halogen could be used in an easy-bake oven.


There, happy CumDumpster?

[TeyshaBlue]

As I understand it, halogens aren't even more efficient, they just last longer. So, I'm a bit curious how they would pass new federal efficiency standards.

See? Either you are willfully ignorant, a pathological liar, or just unbelievably lazy. Which is it? http://www.audioandanarchy.com/images/smilies/fack.png

http://www.sustainablebusiness.com/index.cfm/go/news.display/id/22283

The new bulbs, which use halogen elements, provide energy savings of about 28% compared to conventional incandescents. That meets or exceeds efficiency standards established in the Energy Independence and Security Act (EISA) of 2007. Wattage options are as follows:

29-watt replaces a 40-watt incandescent
43-watt replaces a 60-watt incandescent
72-watt replaces a 100-watt incandescent

[ChumpDumper]

As I understand it, halogens aren't even more efficient


halogens produce more light per unit of energy:rollin

[DarrinS]

See? Either you are willfully ignorant, a pathological liar, or just unbelievably lazy. Which is it? http://www.audioandanarchy.com/images/smilies/fack.png

http://www.sustainablebusiness.com/index.cfm/go/news.display/id/22283

The new bulbs, which use halogen elements, provide energy savings of about 28% compared to conventional incandescents. That meets or exceeds efficiency standards established in the Energy Independence and Security Act (EISA) of 2007. Wattage options are as follows:

29-watt replaces a 40-watt incandescent
43-watt replaces a 60-watt incandescent
72-watt replaces a 100-watt incandescent



Look at previous post, you lazy fucktard.

[TeyshaBlue]

Do your fucking homework for a change, bot.

[DarrinS]

Do your fucking homework for a change, bot.


Already did, asshole.

[TeyshaBlue]

It's a shame that you predicated this whole idiotic thread on an assumption that was incorrect. Try again.

[TeyshaBlue]

Although I did get to talk coffee with WH, so it has had it's moments.

[ChumpDumper]

As I understand it, Darrin posts a bunch of ignorant shit he has to walk back from once the less ignorant members of the board prove how ignorant he is.

[TeyshaBlue]

Ideologues suck.

[Winehole23]

Do your fucking homework for a change, bot.Seems kinda harsh.

When Darrin said " halogens aren't more efficient," I take it he wasn't referring to energy efficiency but heat, or something like that.

[RandomGuy]

As I understand it, halogens aren't even more efficient, they just last longer. So, I'm a bit curious how they would pass new federal efficiency standards.

Well, they are slightly more efficient when it comes to light per unit of energy. The one source I found gave that at about 18%

You are correct that they last longer.
They last (roughly) about 3 times longer, but cost 6 times as much. Then end result is that you spend twice as much on bulbs per hour of usage.

(edit)
Link for source of above info:
http://www.ehow.com/about_5426256_halogen-lights-vs-incandescent.html
(end edit)

Factor all of that in and I will add halogens to the comparison.

LED:Bulbs: $48
Electricity: $40.30
Total cost: $88.30

Florescent:
Bulbs: $20
Electricity: $62
Total cost: $82

Incandescent:
Bulbs: $52.08
Electricity: $310
Total cost: $362.08

Halogen:
Bulbs: $97.14 (incandescant *1.87)
Electricity: $262.71 (incandescent / 1.18)
Total cost: $360.25

Virtually identical in cost performance to regular incandescent.

Where the big difference is though is in heat. Halogens put out a hellacious amount of heat, and are known fire hazards. I will set aside the risk of fire, as most insurance companies absorb that, although such costs would ultimately come back to the consumer if they were adopted on a widespread basis. Too complicated for our simple comparison though.

If you are in Texas or a similar hot climate, that would certainly make the cost of cooling the house higher, by a measurable amount, especially if you figure you might have 10 to 20 of the things running.

Here is a bit more:
http://www.lightingdesignlab.com/articles/halogen/halogen.htm

In the end the LEDs are still far cheaper to run, and as the cost per bulb comes down, will be the hands down cheapest by any measure.

As the technology progresses, I would be willing to go out on a limb and say that both the quality and quantity of the light will change, until LEDs provide the same "warm" yellow light that incandescents do now.

Of course cost isn't everything. If the cheaper LEDs are grating to your eyes, then spend the extra cash to get the kind of light that you like more, by all means.

[TeyshaBlue]

Well, they are slightly more efficient when it comes to light per unit of energy. The one source I found gave that at about 18%

You are correct that they last longer.
They last (roughly) about 3 times longer, but cost 6 times as much. Then end result is that you spend twice as much on bulbs per hour of usage.

Factor all of that in and I will add halogens to the comparison.

LED:Bulbs: $48
Electricity: $40.30
Total cost: $88.30

Florescent:
Bulbs: $20
Electricity: $62
Total cost: $82

Incandescent:
Bulbs: $52.08
Electricity: $310
Total cost: $362.08

Halogen:
Bulbs: $97.14 (incandescant *1.87)
Electricity: $262.71 (incandescent / 1.18)
Total cost: $360.25

Virtually identical in cost performance to regular incandescent.

Where the big difference is though is in heat. Halogens put out a hellacious amount of heat, and are known fire hazards. I will set aside the risk of fire, as most insurance companies absorb that, although such costs would ultimately come back to the consumer if they were adopted on a widespread basis. Too complicated for our simple comparison though.

If you are in Texas or a similar hot climate, that would certainly make the cost of cooling the house higher, by a measurable amount, especially if you figure you might have 10 to 20 of the things running.

Here is a bit more:
http://www.lightingdesignlab.com/articles/halogen/halogen.htm

In the end the LEDs are still far cheaper to run, and as the cost per bulb comes down, will be the hands down cheapest by any measure.

As the technology progresses, I would be willing to go out on a limb and say that both the quality and quantity of the light will change, until LEDs provide the same "warm" yellow light that incandescents do now.

Of course cost isn't everything. If the cheaper LEDs are grating to your eyes, then spend the extra cash to get the kind of light that you like more, by all means.

The lower voltage Halogens are a bit more efficient than the figures you're using. But, heat is an issue. I used halogens in my studio, which uses track lighting, and those can create a pretty toasty control room. I recently replaced the halogens with cfl track light bulbs and the heat is waay down, although they do still get pretty warm.

[TeyshaBlue]

Seems kinda harsh.

When Darrin said " halogens aren't more efficient," I take it he wasn't referring to energy efficiency but heat, or something like that.

Not sure if serious.

But, since efficiency is being discussed within the context of the 2007 law, I'd say it's a safe to assume it's energy efficiency being bandied about.

[TeyshaBlue]

...and harsh is my middle name....well, that or steak....yeah, harsh-steak....wait...that don't look good.

Lemme get back to you on the whole harsh thing.

[Winehole23]

As I understand it, Darrin posts a bunch of ignorant shit he has to walk back from once the less ignorant members of the board prove how ignorant he is.It's not very hard, and the opportunities are legion.

[Winehole23]

The scanty rewards of such easy and indolent work would seem to be a deterrent, but the trend of posting contradicts this.

[Winehole23]

I'd say it's a safe to assume it's energy efficiency being bandied about.Bandied about, sure. Safe to assume Darrin was on the same page? Not so sure.

[RandomGuy]

The lower voltage Halogens are a bit more efficient than the figures you're using. But, heat is an issue. I used halogens in my studio, which uses track lighting, and those can create a pretty toasty control room. I recently replaced the halogens with cfl track light bulbs and the heat is waay down, although they do still get pretty warm.

Yeah, I had to base that from one poorly sourced website, but it is safe to conclude that halogens are somewhere in the neighborhood of regular incandescents when it comes to cost.

Given that LED's cost vastly less over their lifetime though, it is very safe to conclude that the LEDs and florescents are much cheaper in the long run, even if the assumptions used for the halogens are off by a fair margin.

I will probably replace our current florescents with LEDs based on this when they start burning out. After buying a good stock of cheap incandescents to leave in our rental house when we move, of course.

[Winehole23]

Although I did get to talk coffee with WH, so it has had it's moments.Whole beans, burr grinder. Only way to go.

[ElNono]

Whole beans, burr grinder. Only way to go.

Not really. I love my Keurig... recommendations:

http://s7d5.scene7.com/is/image/Staples/s0393025_sc7?$sku$http://cache-images.pronto.com/thumb2.php?src=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.pronto.com%2Fim ages%2Fproduction%2Fproducts%2F13%2F86%2Fimagcafd2 c6acb3587924d402c788719-1289158734_160x160.jpg&wmax=180&hmax=180&quality=80&bgcol=FFFFFF