Obamas speech on israel/palestine

[TDMVPDPOY]

He wants israel to recognize 1960s international agreed resolution regarding borders for the 2 states...

i see nothing wrong with that, if thats the only way to solve the stupid problem over there.

now the problem is the fkn israelis PM, talk about how the speech identifying palestine as a recognize state, could damage relations between usa and israel in the middle east, the only thing i know is why are the israelis always holding the USA/allies to ransom over disputes in the middle east in regards to stability in that region and conflicts of both states.

do we really need the israelis as an ally in that region? with or without them the middle east could become a seabed if we had our way, seems like they need the usa/allies support more then we need them, so why are we always bending over taking their orders? is it because the ZIONISTS are made up all jews/israelis?

[Winehole23]

A Phony Controversy and A Pointless Speech (http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2011/05/19/a-phony-controversy-and-a-pointless-speech/)


Posted on May 19th, 2011 by Daniel Larison (http://www.amconmag.com/searchr.php?v&author=Daniel+Larison)


When I listened to Obama’s speech delivered at the State Department earlier today in preparation for my next column (http://theweek.com/bullpen/column/215472/obamas-empty-mideast-rhetoric), I didn’t find anything terribly interesting about the section on Israel and Palestine. Indeed, what little news there was in that section consisted of confirmations that the administration flatly opposes the Palestinian bid for statehood recognition at the U.N., which in itself is hardly shocking. So I was more than a little surprised that there would be such a flood (http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/obamas-reference-to-israels-1967-borders-creates-faux-controversy/) of manufactured outrage (http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-mitt-romney-obama-israel-20110519,0,527848.story) over (http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2011/05/the-big-lie-obama-hates-israel-ctd.html) one of the least remarkable parts of the speech (http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/05/nothing-new-in-the-idea-that-67-borders-should-guide-peace-talks-updated/239162/). At most, what Obama said represents the tiniest of incremental changes (http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/05/19/obama_alters_us_policy_tells_israel_to_start_with_ 67_borders), which for some reason some administration supporters want to applaud as “bold” and “daring” and many critics want to denounce as treacherous. It isn’t bold, and it isn’t treacherous.

This is very much like the outrage over the demand for a settlement freeze in the past two years. Opposition to settlements has been standard U.S. policy for decades, but Obama created some waves by making an issue out of it. The key to his opponents’ success on settlements was pretending that something completely unremarkable and entirely reasonable was an unspeakably monstrous idea, which then lead to Obama quickly backpedaling away from doing anything to advance his unremarkable consensus position. That seems to be the pattern. First, Obama re-states the rather bland U.S. policy consensus. Next, his critics treat this as a dramatic and radical change to current policy when it isn’t anything of the sort, and the Israeli government pretends that the consensus view is some new, horrible imposition that cannot be tolerated. At the same time, Obama’s political foes declare that he has betrayed Israel, which ought to reveal them as buffoons but instead somehow makes them seem more “credible” on foreign policy. After all of this, Obama backs down and stops saying anything about the uncontroversial position that caused the phony controversy.

I don’t really understand why Obama gave this speech, I don’t see what he was hoping to accomplish with it, and there seems to be general agreement (http://shadow.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/05/19/obamas_latest_middle_east_speech_much_ado_about_no thing) that it was fairly underwhelming (http://www.frumforum.com/ff-liveblog-obama-speaks-to-the-mideast) and lacking significant proposals (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/post/obama-confronts-change-in-the-middle-east-but-words-can-only-do-so-much/2011/03/04/AFUI3H7G_blog.html) of what the U.S. is going to do differently (http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2011-05-19/obamas-middle-east-speech-much-ado-about-little-says-andrew-bacevich/). As I argue in the new column, the lack of attention to Libya was striking, and it was all the more so given the Libyan war’s supposed importance for “aligning our values and interests” and supporting protest movements elsewhere. The complete omission of any mention of the GCC’s intervention in Bahrain was also very odd. The two areas other than Israel/Palestine where U.S. policy is most directly implicated right now (i.e., Libya and the Gulf) received scant or no attention, and what attention Obama did pay to Libya was essentially a repeat of his March 28 speech justifying intervention.

Update: Exum concludes his reaction (http://www.cnas.org/blogs/abumuqawama/2011/05/previewing-presidents-middle-east-speech-live-blogging-and-reactions-follo) with these remarks:
Overall, though, I was underwhelmed and suspect most Arabs will be as well. But maybe the early analysis is right, and this speech was more aimed at a U.S. audience than at the peoples of the region itself.
If that’s the case, I definitely don’t understand why he gave the speech. To put it bluntly, most of the U.S. audience isn’t terribly concerned about administration policy towards Bahrain or Syria or even Egypt, and Americans are mainly concerned about Libya now only because the administration dragged the U.S. into Libya. If the speech was geared towards the small fraction of the population in the U.S. that follows event in the region closely, I still don’t see what it accomplished.
http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2011/05/19/a-phony-controversy-and-a-pointless-speech/

[Wild Cobra]

It won't solve anything. Those who hate Israel will find something else to focus on, especially if we help them with that win.

Israel won that land and more during a war that they didn't start, but finished.

It is theirs. they have over the decades tried for a peaceful solution that never comes.

[fyatuk]

they have over the decades tried for a peaceful solution that never comes.

That's debateable. Israel has been the initial violator of several agreements, and there's been a lot of shady behaviour by their government.

Both sides are jacked up over there, and no one in power seems to really want peace.

[hater]

agree that nothing will change. Entire political campaigns on both sides are mainly based on the Israel/Palestine disputes. Those disputes can't disapear because then politicians would be left out on the street.

[CosmicCowboy]

If I was Israel I would tell Obama to kiss my ass. There is no fucking way I would give up the Golan Heights where Syria could again start randomly lobbing artillery shells on my heartland.

[ChumpDumper]

I think it's merely a starting point.

Why should Israel dictate the terms of our billions of dollars of support, CC?

[lefty]

Fuck Israel

[CosmicCowboy]

I think it's merely a starting point.

Why should Israel dictate the terms of our billions of dollars of support, CC?

Classic Chump straw. I'm talking Israel's right to defend itself and he comes back with with US financial support for Israel.

[ChumpDumper]

Classic Chump straw. I'm talking Israel's right to defend itself and he comes back with with US financial support for Israel.It's not straw. It's a real question.

Why do you think Israel should be given over $80 billion and counting with, as far as I see it, not one condition?

What does the US get for its $80+ billion?

As I said before, the 67 borders are a starting point, not an ultimatum.

[boutons_deux]

"What does the US get for its $80+ billion"

Legislators prevent AIPAC from attacking them.

And of course, the MIC makes $Bs selling hardware to Israel (and Muslim countries).

[CosmicCowboy]

It's not straw. It's a real question.

Why do you think Israel should be given over $80 billion and counting with, as far as I see it, not one condition?

What does the US get for its $80+ billion?

As I said before, the 67 borders are a starting point, not an ultimatum.

If this was a negotiation then he would have done it privately. What good comes from him making a speech and demanding in public a return to the 67 borders? The guy is a tool.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

It's not straw. It's a real question.

Why do you think Israel should be given over $80 billion and counting with, as far as I see it, not one condition?

What does the US get for its $80+ billion?

As I said before, the 67 borders are a starting point, not an ultimatum.

So because we give them money, they should give up their land?

[ChumpDumper]

If this was a negotiation then he would have done it privately. What good comes from him making a speech and demanding in public a return to the 67 borders? The guy is a tool.lol demand.

Talk about straw.


So because we give them money, they should give up their land?Why did they give up "their" land in 1979?

Maybe you can tell me what the US gets in return for all this money. Give it a shot.

[Winehole23]

Let me conclude by talking about another cornerstone of our approach to the region, and that relates to the pursuit of peace.



For decades, the conflict between Israelis and Arabs has cast a shadow over the region. For Israelis, it has meant living with the fear that their children could get blown up on a bus or by rockets fired at their homes, as well as the pain of knowing that other children in the region are taught to hate them. For Palestinians, it has meant suffering the humiliation of occupation, and never living in a nation of their own. Moreover, this conflict has come with a larger cost the Middle East, as it impedes partnerships that could bring greater security, prosperity, and empowerment to ordinary people.



My Administration has worked with the parties and the international community for over two years to end this conflict, yet expectations have gone unmet. Israeli settlement activity continues. Palestinians have walked away from talks. The world looks at a conflict that has grinded on for decades, and sees a stalemate. Indeed, there are those who argue that with all the change and uncertainty in the region, it is simply not possible to move forward.



I disagree. At a time when the people of the Middle East and North Africa are casting off the burdens of the past, the drive for a lasting peace that ends the conflict and resolves all claims is more urgent than ever.
For the Palestinians, efforts to delegitimize Israel will end in failure. Symbolic actions to isolate Israel at the United Nations in September won't create an independent state. Palestinian leaders will not achieve peace or prosperity if Hamas insists on a path of terror and rejection. And Palestinians will never realize their independence by denying the right of Israel to exist.



As for Israel, our friendship is rooted deeply in a shared history and shared values. Our commitment to Israel's security is unshakeable. And we will stand against attempts to single it out for criticism in international forums. But precisely because of our friendship, it is important that we tell the truth: the status quo is unsustainable, and Israel too must act boldly to advance a lasting peace.



The fact is, a growing number of Palestinians live west of the Jordan River. Technology will make it harder for Israel to defend itself. A region undergoing profound change will lead to populism in which millions of people -- not just a few leaders -- must believe peace is possible. The international community is tired of an endless process that never produces an outcome. The dream of a Jewish and democratic state cannot be fulfilled with permanent occupation.
Ultimately, it is up to Israelis and Palestinians to take action. No peace can be imposed upon them, nor can endless delay make the problem go away. But what America and the international community can do is state frankly what everyone knows: a lasting peace will involve two states for two peoples. Israel as a Jewish state and the homeland for the Jewish people, and the state of Palestine as the homeland for the Palestinian people; each state enjoying self-determination, mutual recognition, and peace.
So while the core issues of the conflict must be negotiated, the basis of those negotiations is clear: a viable Palestine, and a secure Israel. The United States believes that negotiations should result in two states, with permanent Palestinian borders with Israel, Jordan, and Egypt, and permanent Israeli borders with Palestine. The borders of Israel and Palestine should be based on the 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps, so that secure and recognized borders are established for both states. The Palestinian people must have the right to govern themselves, and reach their potential, in a sovereign and contiguous state.



As for security, every state has the right to self-defense, and Israel must be able to defend itself -- by itself -- against any threat. Provisions must also be robust enough to prevent a resurgence of terrorism; to stop the infiltration of weapons; and to provide effective border security. The full and phased withdrawal of Israeli military forces should be coordinated with the assumption of Palestinian security responsibility in a sovereign, non-militarized state. The duration of this transition period must be agreed, and the effectiveness of security arrangements must be demonstrated.



These principles provide a foundation for negotiations. Palestinians should know the territorial outlines of their state; Israelis should know that their basic security concerns will be met. I know that these steps alone will not resolve this conflict. Two wrenching and emotional issues remain: the future of Jerusalem, and the fate of Palestinian refugees. But moving forward now on the basis of territory and security provides a foundation to resolve those two issues in a way that is just and fair, and that respects the rights and aspirations of Israelis and Palestinians.



Recognizing that negotiations need to begin with the issues of territory and security does not mean that it will be easy to come back to the table. In particular, the recent announcement of an agreement between Fatah and Hamas raises profound and legitimate questions for Israel -- how can one negotiate with a party that has shown itself unwilling to recognize your right to exist. In the weeks and months to come, Palestinian leaders will have to provide a credible answer to that question. Meanwhile, the United States, our Quartet partners, and the Arab states will need to continue every effort to get beyond the current impasse.



I recognize how hard this will be. Suspicion and hostility has been passed on for generations, and at times it has hardened. But I'm convinced that the majority of Israelis and Palestinians would rather look to the future than be trapped in the past. We see that spirit in the Israeli father whose son was killed by Hamas, who helped start an organization that brought together Israelis and Palestinians who had lost loved ones. He said, "I gradually realized that the only hope for progress was to recognize the face of the conflict." And we see it in the actions of a Palestinian who lost three daughters to Israeli shells in Gaza. "I have the right to feel angry," he said. "So many people were expecting me to hate. My answer to them is I shall not hate.… Let us hope," he said, "for tomorrow"



That is the choice that must be made -- not simply in this conflict, but across the entire region -- a choice between hate and hope; between the shackles of the past, and the promise of the future. It's a choice that must be made by leaders and by people, and it's a choice that will define the future of a region that served as the cradle of civilization and a crucible of strife.
http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/05/19/full_text_of_obamas_middle_east_speech

[TeyshaBlue]

lol demand.

Talk about straw.

Why did they give up "their" land in 1979?

Maybe you can tell me what the US gets in return for all this money. Give it a shot.

I dunno. A shit ton of weapon sales?

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11743

[George Gervin's Afro]

http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/05/19/full_text_of_obamas_middle_east_speech

What? I didn't hear any reporting on the context of the statement from Fox News or sean Hannity.. that's really weird..

[Wild Cobra]

That's debateable. Israel has been the initial violator of several agreements, and there's been a lot of shady behaviour by their government.
Yes I know. That's what the media tells you.

Both sides are jacked up over there, and no one in power seems to really want peace.
Maybe you should spend some time with someone who has lived in Israel, and try to understand what they know.

[Wild Cobra]

If I was Israel I would tell Obama to kiss my ass. There is no fucking way I would give up the Golan Heights where Syria could again start randomly lobbing artillery shells on my heartland.
Agreed.

Why can't these people understand that Israel won the spoils of war.

[ChumpDumper]

Yes know. That's what the media tells you.They told me Gingrich called for health insurance mandates too. We all know how that turned out.


Maybe you should spend some time with someone who has lived in Israel, and try to understand what they know.Did you spend some time with a Palestinian who lived in Israel?

[ChumpDumper]

Agreed.

Why can't these people understand that Israel won the spoils of war.Why did they give so much of it back, WC?

[Wild Cobra]

Why did they give so much of it back, WC?
That's just it. That was suppose to stop all this warring. Since it didn't, why is anyone stupid enough to thing farther concessions will?

[ChumpDumper]

That's just it. That was suppose to stop all this warring. Since it didn't, why is anyone stupid enough to thing farther concessions will?You're saying they are at war with Egypt?

Wow.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

lol demand.

Talk about straw.

Why did they give up "their" land in 1979?

Maybe you can tell me what the US gets in return for all this money. Give it a shot.

So because we give them money, they should give up their land?

[ChumpDumper]

So because we give them money, they should give up their land?Straw man. They give up "their" land on their own. They've done it before.

What does the US get in return for all these billions of money, Viva?

[Winehole23]

So because we give them money, they should give up their land?The caveat "with mutually agreed swaps" is actually a recognition that Israel will not give back some West Bank settlements, but will have to swap other lands in lieu of giving them back.

[fyatuk]

Yes know. That's what the media tells you.

Maybe you should spend some time with someone who has lived in Israel, and try to understand what they know.

I've talked with people who've lived in Israel and the Palestinian territories.

Like I said, both sides are jacked up.

I don't think either really deserves our support.

And yes, I've spent quite a bit of time looking at news reports from the area through various US and foreign english language news sites, some of the most respected in the world, and some of the shadier. The "media" tries to portray Israel a lot better than they deserve.

[Wild Cobra]

I've talked with people who've lived in Israel and the Palestinian territories.

Like I said, both sides are jacked up.

I don't think either really deserves our support.

And yes, I've spent quite a bit of time looking at news reports from the area through various US and foreign english language news sites, some of the most respected in the world, and some of the shadier. The "media" tries to portray Israel a lot better than they deserve.
I disagree. We may not agree with how Israel protects itself, but that is what their actions are about. If Israel didn't have to protect itself, do you think they would act as they do now?

[ChumpDumper]

I disagree. We may not agree with how Israel protects itself, but that is what their actions are about. If Israel didn't have to protect itself, do you think they would act as they do now?How many Palestinians have you spoken with, WC?

[Wild Cobra]

How many Palestinians have you spoken with, WC?
I don't know. Maybe several, maybe none. That doesn't matter. As long as Palestinians keep bombing Israel, what is Israel to do?

Are you suggesting Israel ignore attacks, and let them attack at will with no recourse?

[ChumpDumper]

I don't know. Maybe several, maybe none. That doesn't matter.Then why does your talking with Israelis matter?

[fyatuk]

I disagree. We may not agree with how Israel protects itself, but that is what their actions are about. If Israel didn't have to protect itself, do you think they would act as they do now?

I think if Israel truly wanted peace, they would have had it by now. Their actions aren't just about protecting themselves, but at subjugating and dominating through might and fear. They may feel that's the best way to protect themselves, but I find that concept disgusting.

The only person that ever struck me as sincerely wanting peace (if even for just a while) was Arafat's successor in Fatah.

[Drachen]

I actually agree with WC and CC on this one, they won the spoils of war, and they can do what they want with them up to and including giving it back. I have no problem with that stance. However, we don't have to give them any money to help them defend it either. Stop the money, and tell em all to have a ball.

[ChumpDumper]

Stop the money, and tell em all to have a ball.Fine by me.

[clambake]

it takes a lot of money to feed the animals in their human zoo.

[TacoCabanaFajitas]

Fine by me.

Same here. It's ridiculous that the same people that bitch about our involvement in other countries around the world wholeheartedly give Israel a bj when the opportunity arises.

[hater]

Agreed.

Why can't these people understand that Israel won the spoils of war.

the war still going on genius. Nobody HAS WON. And negotiations are part of the war.

[MannyIsGod]

I actually agree with WC and CC on this one, they won the spoils of war, and they can do what they want with them up to and including giving it back. I have no problem with that stance. However, we don't have to give them any money to help them defend it either. Stop the money, and tell em all to have a ball.

Except they can't. There are no more "spoils of war" and have not been for quite some time.

Its not their land at all. It wasn't their land before the west came in and made Israel, either.

[ChumpDumper]

Except they can't. There are no more "spoils of war" and have not been for quite some time.

Its not their land at all. It wasn't their land before the west came in and made Israel, either.Dude, they are the chosen people.

They got chosed.

[MannyIsGod]

Pretty funny how I never see the term white guilt thrown around here when dealing with Israel. Fucking white guilt led to the creation of a whole new country.

[DarrinS]

Pretty funny how I never see the term white guilt thrown around here when dealing with Israel. Fucking white guilt led to the creation of a whole new country.

???

[TeyshaBlue]

Manny's going for a personal best. This will be topic number 258,355,879,245,269,687 that he has injected race into.:p:

Did I get the number right, Manny?:lol

[MannyIsGod]

Are you familiar with the creation of Israel, Darrin? It happened after a sizable event in Jewish history. The west then felt guilty and created a nice little place for them in the middle of Palestine. Oh, then we gave them guns. Lots and lots of guns.

This was all accomplished before our government became all consumed by incandescent bulbs and the evils they pose.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

He has quite a knack for that.

[MannyIsGod]

Manny's going for a personal best. This will be topic number 258,355,879,245,269,687 that he has injected race into.:p:

Did I get the number right, Manny?:lol

Race when injected when a country was made for a special ethnic group by outside people. Do you, or do you not think guilt over the mistreatment of this ethnic group led to the creation of the country?

[DarrinS]

Breaking....


Obama proposes that Texas return to 1835 borders.


Developing....

[MannyIsGod]

He has quite a knack for that.

Same question to you. Did guilt have anything to do with the creation of Israel. If not what were the forces behind it?

[TeyshaBlue]

Race when injected when a country was made for a special ethnic group by outside people. Do you, or do you not think guilt over the mistreatment of this ethnic group led to the creation of the country?

Relax. I was just riffing on an earlier post you made where you threw out some ridiculous number like that.:lol

[TeyshaBlue]

Relax. I was just riffing on an earlier post you made where you threw out some ridiculous number like that.:lol

Oh and to answer your question, without a doubt it was the motivator.

[ChumpDumper]

Breaking....


Obama proposes that Texas return to 1835 borders.


Developing....Breaking....

Darrin creates another straw man.

Developing....

[Winehole23]

Breaking....


Obama proposes that Texas return to 1835 borders.


Developing....You didn't read the speech, did you?

[DarrinS]

You didn't read the speech, did you?

Actually, the first time I heard about it, I thought it was from The Onion.


No, I have not read the speech in its entirety. Have you?

[ChumpDumper]

Oh and to answer your question, without a doubt it was the motivator.Now I'm wondering, why the prostration of the US before the wishes of the Israeli government?

Feels like kind of a crusader state by proxy mentality.

[MannyIsGod]

Relax. I was just riffing on an earlier post you made where you threw out some ridiculous number like that.:lol

I figured as much but it just gives idiots like Viva, Darrin, and WC ammunition although I probably shouldn't care about that.

Race is important to me as I believe its now that people have started to believe its a non issue it sneaks in and has a huge effect. Not to mention that systematic racism is just ignored because of the latter mentioned belief.

In any event, my point with that statement was simply to prove how hypocritical these assholes who drape themselves in the Israeli flag and are ready to just hand them weapons and money are so quick to use the term white guilt when it comes to shit having to do with their own fucking citizens.

[ChumpDumper]

Actually, the first time I heard about it, I thought it was from The Onion.


No, I have not read the speech in its entirety. Have you?The ADL read it and praised it.

Why do you hate the ADL, Darrin?

[TeyshaBlue]

I think it's a by product of our earlier passive/agressive Defender role wherein we would almost cut off our left arm as a defense tactic. It's a weird dynamic.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Same question to you. Did guilt have anything to do with the creation of Israel. If not what were the forces behind it?

:lol don't lump me in your "white guilt" nonsense and try to justify it through me. That's your cross to bear.

[MannyIsGod]

:lol don't lump me in your "white guilt" nonsense and try to justify it through me. That's your cross to bear.

So you don't think guilt had anything to do with Israel's creation? What did then? Its a cross to bear for you to give an opinion on the creation of Israel?

[TeyshaBlue]

I'll reiterate with a question. I think guilt was the primary motivator. I'm not sure how the descriptor "white guilt" fits tho?

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Race is important to me

I guess you have a bone to pick with MLK. Like I said. You're so full of shit, it isn't funny. MannyisFOS

[DarrinS]

The ADL read it and praised it.

Why do you hate the ADL, Darrin?


Those left wing Obama nut-huggers? That ADL? I'm sooooo shocked that they loved an Obama speech. :lmao

[vy65]

I'd be careful saying that "white guilt led to the creation of an entire country." Did it have a role? Probably. But the way you're spinning it makes ideologies like Zionism or European colonial rule in the region (which are more responsible, imho) seem like after thoughts.

[TeyshaBlue]

MannyisFOS

FOS Financial Ombudsman Service (UK)
FOS Fructo-Oligosaccharides (nutrional supplement)
FoS Festival of Speed
FOS Friends of Scouting
FOS Free Online Scholarship (newsletter)
FOS Fundamental Operating System
FOS Faint Object Spectrograph
FOS free/open source
FoS Field of Study
FOS Family of Systems
FOS Florida Ornithological Society
FOS Fructooligosacaridos
FOS Factor Of Safety
FOS From Outer Space
FOS Fiber Optic Sensor
FOS Foundations of Science (journal; course)
FOS Figure of Speech
FOS Federation of Workers Trade Unions (Haiti)
FOS Freedom of the Seas (Royal Caribbean cruise ship)
FOS Free Alongside Ship
FOS First of Season (birding)
FOS French Onion Soup
FOS Forward Operating Site (US military)
FOS Family of Schools
FOS Faint Object Spectrometer
FOS Free On Steamer
FOS Freedom of Services (EU)
FOS Flight Operations System
FOS Friend of the Sea (Sustainable Seafood)
FOS Flight Operation Segment
FOS Full Operational Status
FOS Florida Orthopaedic Society
FOS Fabric Operating System (Brocade)
FOS Factory Outlet Store (retail)
FOS Full of Stool (medical slang)
FOS Florida Oceanographic Society
FOS Finger of Suspicion
FOS Front Office System (software)
FOS Full of Stuff (polite form)
FOS Fellowship of the Sun (fictitious religious organization; True Blood; TV show)
FoS Friends of Science Society (Calgary, AB, Canada)
FOS Failure of Selection (US DoD)
FOS Fuel Oil Supply
FoS Followers of Set (roleplaying)
FOS Field Operations Supervisor (Census)
FOS Flight Operations Software
FOS Fire Of Savannas
FOS Frinton on Sea (Essex, UK)
FOS Freedom of Speech, Inc
FOS Feature of Size (geometric dimensioning)
FOS Feet on Street (India)
FOS Follow On Support
FOS Field of Search (sensor management systems)
FOS Fuel Operator Station
FOS Found On Shelf
FOS Follow On Spares
FOS Follow on Sustainment
FOS Foot of Slope (change of gradient)
FOS Fall Of Shot
FoS Focus on Solving
FOS Full Operating System
FOS Fuel Oil Spill
FOS Father Over Shoulder
FOS Front Offside (vehicular collision reports)
FOS Fast Optical Shutter
FOS Feasibility of Support
FOS Fit or Split
FOS Funky Old Soul
FOS Forward Observer Software/System
FOS Fleet Ordnance Support
FOS Financial Operations Supervisor
FOS Follow On Ship
FOS Fellowship of the Services
FOS former owner's stamp (used books)
FOS Friends of Suai
FOS Functional Operational Specification
FOS Finkel-Biskis-Jinkins murine Osteogenicsarcoma (cancer research)

[ChumpDumper]

Those left wing Obama nut-huggers? That ADL? I'm sooooo shocked that they loved an Obama speech. :lmaoSo you hate the ADL.

Makes sense.

[TeyshaBlue]

After studying the above list, I'm going with French Onion Soup. Manny is French Onion Soup. :tu

[DarrinS]

We should really consider returning to our 1733 borders.

[MannyIsGod]

I'll reiterate with a question. I think guilt was the primary motivator. I'm not sure how the descriptor "white guilt" fits tho?

Anglo dominated nations led to the creation of Israel due to the treatment of an ethnic group that they feel they allowed. I don't see a difference in using that term to describe American actions toward blacks or Jews.

Don't get me wrong, its not my term. Its the term brought up by the likes of Darrin, Viva, and WC. Its cute Viva now tries to run from it that he's on the side of Israel, though.

[vy65]

Wait, what's the problem that people have with Obama's speech again?

Is it that it's a concession to the Osama bin Ragheads over there or something?

[Winehole23]

Actually, the first time I heard about it, I thought it was from The Onion.


No, I have not read the speech in its entirety. Have you?Yeah, I did. It's not that long. There's a link posted upstream.

[ChumpDumper]

We should really consider returning to our 1733 borders.Darrin, why did Israel give up the Sinai in 1979?

[fyatuk]

Race is important to me as I believe its now that people have started to believe its a non issue it sneaks in and has a huge effect. Not to mention that systematic racism is just ignored because of the latter mentioned belief.

I agree to an extent. It's not a non-issue to many people still. At the same time, I think racism is cried far too often to the point where it's expansiveness is overblown by the "victim" races (read non-white) and dismissed as "boy who cried wolf" by the "majority."

Some things I've seen racism called on are just pathetic, but you also see it happen with no-one saying a thing. It's a rather weird dynamic.

[MannyIsGod]

I'd be careful saying that "white guilt led to the creation of an entire country." Did it have a role? Probably. But the way you're spinning it makes ideologies like Zionism or European colonial rule in the region (which are more responsible, imho) seem like after thoughts.

There were definitely other factors. My point wasn't to pin the entirety of Israel's creation on one factor but to point out hypocrisy of others on a different subject that parallels this one.

Its quite obvious I failed in making that point. :lol

[MannyIsGod]

I agree to an extent. It's not a non-issue to many people still. At the same time, I think racism is cried far too often to the point where it's expansiveness is overblown by the "victim" races (read non-white) and dismissed as "boy who cried wolf" by the "majority."

Some things I've seen racism called on are just pathetic, but you also see it happen with no-one saying a thing. It's a rather weird dynamic.

I'd agree with this. I think actual instances of racism are more easily ignored because of this.

[TeyshaBlue]

Its quite obvious I failed in making that point. :lol

Regardless of it's shortcomings, that was a fantastic attempt from a bowl of French Onion Soup. :tu :lol

[DarrinS]

Race is important to me as I believe its now that people have started to believe its a non issue it sneaks in and has a huge effect.


The day race becomes a non-issue is the day that it can no longer be used as an excuse for mediocrity or as a weapon to smear political opponents.

[vy65]

There were definitely other factors. My point wasn't to pin the entirety of Israel's creation on one factor but to point out hypocrisy of others on a different subject that parallels this one.

Its quite obvious I failed in making that point. :lol

:tu

[vy65]

The day race becomes a non-issue is the day that it can no longer be used as an excuse for mediocrity or as a weapon to smear political opponents.

You should be fucking castrated to prevent contaminating the gene pool with your extreme mental retardation.

[MannyIsGod]

The day race becomes a non-issue is the day that it can no longer be used as an excuse for mediocrity or as a weapon to smear political opponents.

LOL!

Oh really?

I figured that would be the day we were all considered the same and equal in our society. Wow man, you have a history of making telling quotes but this is a great one. Apprently the biggest problems involving race are not the fact that far more african americans are poor, in jail, or making less money but that its used to smear political opponents.

SMH.

[Winehole23]

Don't hold back, vy65. Tell us what you really think.

[MannyIsGod]

I guess you have a bone to pick with MLK. Like I said. You're so full of shit, it isn't funny. MannyisFOS

I'd love for you to explain to me how I'm full of shit.

[TeyshaBlue]

Don't hold back, vy65. Tell us what you really think.

:lol

[Winehole23]

For DarrinS:

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/columnists/krauthammer/index.html?page=1

[MannyIsGod]

The day race becomes a non-issue is the day that it can no longer be used as an excuse for mediocrity or as a weapon to smear political opponents.

Wow, just wow. I'm pretty blown away by this statement.

[MannyIsGod]

Regardless of it's shortcomings, that was a fantastic attempt from a bowl of French Onion Soup. :tu :lol

If nothing else it was one hell of a hijack. It made my train ride go by in the blink of an eye.

[vy65]

Don't hold back, vy65. Tell us what you really think.

I call 'em like I see 'em . . . what can I say?

[DarrinS]

The Jessy Jacksons, Al Sharptons, and apparently the Manny's of the world need to keep race a central issue.

[DarrinS]

You should be fucking castrated to prevent contaminating the gene pool with your extreme mental retardation.

civility

[vy65]

The day race becomes a non-issue is the day that it can no longer be used as an excuse for mediocrity or as a weapon to smear political opponents.

Willful ignorance.

[ChumpDumper]

Darrin, maybe you can tell us what the US gets in return for it's financial support of Israel.

Give it a shot.

[TheManFromAcme]

If I was Israel I would tell Obama to kiss my ass. There is no fucking way I would give up the Golan Heights where Syria could again start randomly lobbing artillery shells on my heartland.

:tu

[Josepatches_]

I think if Israel truly wanted peace, they would have had it by now. Their actions aren't just about protecting themselves, but at subjugating and dominating through might and fear. They may feel that's the best way to protect themselves, but I find that concept disgusting.

:tu

[Wild Cobra]

You didn't read the speech, did you?
I think his point has to do with how we would feel if we let the few in Mexico have their way of returning those borders.

[mingus]

when Israel gives up the land Obama is asking them to give up, terrorists will suddenly lay down their arms and be all about peace. that's exactly what will happen.

:rollin

[ElNono]

They hate each other guts... what else is there to add?

Obama is hardly the first nor will be the last to propose different solutions to get 'peace talks' going again. But it's obviously a non-starter seeing that both sides are simply unwilling to do so.

[ElNono]

As far as the US is concerned, I agree I still don't get what we're getting for the aid provided. Especially now that everyone is up in arms about what our deficits are.

[Wild Cobra]

when Israel gives up the land Obama is asking them to give up, terrorists will suddenly lay down their arms and be all about peace. that's exactly what will happen.

:rollin
I see you forgot the blue...

[DarrinS]

As far as the US is concerned, I agree I still don't get what we're getting for the aid provided. Especially now that everyone is up in arms about what our deficits are.

Based on that criteria, there are probably very few countries we should give aid to.


I'm sure Israel is in this pie chart somewhere.


http://aidwatchers.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/US_aid_graph4501.png

[ElNono]

Based on that criteria, there are probably very few countries we should give aid to.

Correct.


I'm sure Israel is in this pie chart somewhere.

http://aidwatchers.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/US_aid_graph4501.png

Something doesn't add up in that chart... perhaps they've avoided FMF funding? Numbers including official sources:

http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/politics/us-foreign-aid.htm

[ElNono]

2008 figures (latest available looks like) from the US Census Bureau:

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/cats/foreign_commerce_aid/foreign_aid.html

[ElNono]

I'm sure Israel is in this pie chart somewhere.

http://aidwatchers.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/US_aid_graph4501.png

Actually, you won't find it in that chart:

So this chart does not include military aid, and it would not include aid to Israel even if that aid were economic in nature, since Israel is not on the DAC-approved list of developing countries. (www.oecd.org/dac/stats/daclist)

[DarrinS]

Correct.



Something doesn't add up in that chart... perhaps they've avoided FMF funding? Numbers including official sources:

http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/politics/us-foreign-aid.htm



Hmmm. You may be right.

[MannyIsGod]

:lmao

Darrin lies yet again!

[MannyIsGod]

Hmmm. You may be right.

Way to check your sources before your use them. Too bad its not the first time you've done this. Maybe you should stop being such a bitch and actually learn about the subject as opposed to googling your way to what you want.

You're a waste of human brain cells.

[DarrinS]

:lmao

Darrin lies yet again!


ElNono is actually a reasonable person to talk to.

You? Not so much.

[DarrinS]

Way to check your sources before your use them. Too bad its not the first time you've done this. Maybe you should stop being such a bitch and actually learn about the subject as opposed to googling your way to what you want.


Everyone makes mistakes.



You're a waste of human brain cells.


Your brain cells led you to believe that Israel was created because of "white guilt".

[MannyIsGod]

:lol You've said the same about me to others. Thats your go to line and its funny. Whats so reasonable about either lying with false information or googling your way to bullshit information because you have absolutely no clue what to you're talking about?

The day I care what a lazy liar like you thinks is reasonable is going to be quite a cold day in hell.

[MannyIsGod]

Everyone makes mistakes.



Your brain cells led you to believe that Israel was created because of "white guilt".

You make the same mistake in nearly every thread. Making the same mistake out of laziness or desire to lie seems to be your calling card. It shows how much of a conformation bias you have.

[ElNono]

BTW, I have less of a harder time justifying military aid to Colombia, considering the war on drugs and how that affects America directly (there's another debate somewhere there about the war on drugs itself, but that's a different story).

[DarrinS]

:lol You've said the same about me to others. Thats your go to line and its funny. Whats so reasonable about either lying with false information or googling your way to bullshit information because you have absolutely no clue what to you're talking about?

The day I care what a lazy liar like you thinks is reasonable is going to be quite a cold day in hell.


Fair enough. Thanks for posting about it.

[MannyIsGod]

No thanks necessary. I quite enjoyed it. Its satisfying to me when lazy people like you are exposed.

[DarrinS]

BTW, I have less of a harder time justifying military aid to Colombia, considering the war on drugs and how that affects America directly (there's another debate somewhere there about the war on drugs itself, but that's a different story).


I suppose. Maybe the reason we give so much money to Israel is that they are one of few allies in a very important region, they are the size of New Jersey, and they are surrounded by enemies that have attacked them in the past.

[DarrinS]

No thanks necessary. I quite enjoyed it. Its satisfying to me when lazy people like you are exposed.


Ok, go get yourself some whipes.

[ElNono]

I suppose. Maybe the reason we give so much money to Israel is that they are one of few allies in a very important region, they are the size of New Jersey, and they are surrounded by enemies that have attacked them in the past.

What's in it for America though, in exchange for that kind of aid?

Truth be told, Israel is probably the only one in the list that is way over the military curve compared to any other country around them.
With Colombia/Bolivia, I see what the (at least, perceived) benefits would be.

I'm not opposed to being a Good Samaritan(tm) when we have money to throw around, but I keep hearing how way over our heads we are in debt.

[ChumpDumper]

I suppose. Maybe the reason we give so much money to Israel is that they are one of few allies in a very important region, they are the size of New Jersey, and they are surrounded by enemies that have attacked them in the past.What do you mean when you call Israel an ally?

What does the US get out of this relationship?

[ChuckD]

I suppose. Maybe the reason we give so much money to Israel is that they are one of few allies in a very important region, they are the size of New Jersey, and they are surrounded by enemies that have attacked them in the past.

The reason we give so much money is that the GOP is infested with Fundies who think they have to go fight a battle there someday. The Israelis are content to take the aid and laugh at their foolishness behind their backs.

[xrayzebra]

The reason we give so much money is that the GOP is infested with Fundies who think they have to go fight a battle there someday. The Israelis are content to take the aid and laugh at their foolishness behind their backs.

That's why all the Jews in the U.S. give their money to the Dimm-o-craps.

:toast

Or did before this little incident.

[ChuckD]

That's why all the Jews in the U.S. give their money to the Dimm-o-craps.

:toast

Or did before this little incident.

Uh, that meme has been out of date since probably the 70s or early 80s. Ever since the Reagan admin began blindly supporting Israel without any responsibility for their part in the ME peace process, the GOP has been the donation of choice for Jewish America.

[ChumpDumper]

That's why all the Jews in the U.S. give their money to the Dimm-o-craps.

:toast

Or did before this little incident.You're calling this speech an incident?

What do you think is going to happen? Obama just said out loud what has been the overall goal of peace talks for years.

[Wild Cobra]

You're calling this speech an incident?

What do you think is going to happen? Obama just said out loud what has been the overall goal of peace talks for years.
Obama just shot his election plans good unless he can fix it some how.

[ChumpDumper]

Obama just shot his election plans good unless he can fix it some how.lol are you serious?

How much support do you think he lost here?

How many voters even know anything about this?

[Wild Cobra]

lol are you serious?

How much support do you think he lost here?

How many voters even know anything about this?
It can make a difference in some state elections for electoral votes.

Do the math:

87 percent of Jews vote Democrat (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3325529,00.html)

Jewish Population of the United States by State (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/usjewpop.html)

[ChumpDumper]

Oh, I see. You think most Jews in the US will turn on Obama after his rather vague speech about the peace process.

That's as stupid as anything you've ever come up with.

[ChumpDumper]

Tell me what this really changes for Israel.

Does this force them to do anything?

[Wild Cobra]

Tell me what this really changes for Israel.

Does this force them to do anything?
His speech indicates he either hates Jews, or he is very ignorant to their daily life under the threats of attacks.

How can they appreciate such a man?

[ChumpDumper]

His speech indicates he either hates Jews, or he is very ignorant to their daily life under the threats of attacks.

How can they appreciate such a man?You're an idiot, but thanks for admitting it changes nothing for Israel.

[Wild Cobra]

You're an idiot, but thanks for admitting it changes nothing for Israel.
Yes it does. It changes their perspective of us.

[ChumpDumper]

Yes it does. It changes their perspective of us.And what does that change for us?

[Wild Cobra]

And what does that change for us?

Well, it most certainly bring out the anti-Semitics like you!

[ChumpDumper]

Well, it most certainly bring out the anti-Semitics like you!Ad-hominem straw man.

A two-fer.

But thanks for proving that this changes nothing for them or us,

[CuckingFunt]

Wild Cobra is an anti-semantic.

[Wild Cobra]

Wild Cobra is an anti-semantic.

LOL...

Got me there.

Correction...

Antisemitic.

[ChumpDumper]

LOL...

Got me there.

Correction...

Antisemitic.I can't decide if it's less fun or more fun when you don't get the insult.

[CuckingFunt]

I can't decide if it's less fun or more fun when you don't get the insult.

More fun.

[Wild Cobra]

More fun.
I got, but it was funny also.

[ChuckD]

CD&CF = #winning

[ChumpDumper]

I got, but it was funny also.Are you drunk?