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RandomGuy
05-25-2011, 10:24 AM
We are, by all credible estimates, VASTLY underinvesting in our infrastructure.
I have been reading a series of articles in many different sources about this, and the more I read, the more apparent the need is for us to do something about it. This gentleman has one solution I will be looking into.


Posted By Clyde Prestowitz

First to Third World in one lifetime
Posted By Clyde Prestowitz Tuesday, May 24, 2011 - 6:13 PM Share

I'm sitting at Gate 31 of Washington's Reagan National Airport waiting for a flight to Chicago. I've actually been sitting here for about four hours so far with no departure time in sight. During that time, I have been booked on three different flights, denied boarding on my original flight when the pilot failed to show up, and had my plane swapped from the Chicago route to become a flight to Denver, but then that was also delayed for want of a pilot.

This follows an experience last week in which I waited at National Airport for four hours while trying to get the 11 a.m. shuttle to New York and then waited at La Guardia for another four hours before my return flight took off.

The guy next to me just remarked that he prefers traveling in what we have become accustomed to calling the "Third World." My wife just called to report that the outer loop of the Washington Beltway has been completely blocked for hours.

As luck would have it, today's Wall Street Journal has a special feature on the future of transportation that has provided particularly appropriate reading while I wait. The Journal cites estimates that congestion costs the U.S. economy over $200 billion annually. But that's mostly from sitting in our cars on blocked freeways and in airplanes on delayed flights. It doesn't count the losses from dropped phone calls, slow Internet speeds, and lagging application of existing technology that could remedy many of these problems.

Take the Washington Beltway and the heavily traveled Interstate 95 that connects much of the East Coast. The technology exists to post information on electronic highway signs showing where the bottlenecks are, how long the wait will be, and alternate routes. A few of these signs exist between Washington and Baltimore, but none seem to be in use on the Beltway. Comparing this to driving in Singapore, urban China, Japan, or Germany makes one want to cry.

South Korea's Internet speeds are about 10 times faster than those in the United States, which makes it possible for Koreans to do levels and types of research just not possible in America. Indeed, we Americans come in at only about No. 18 in the international Internet speed comparisons. We also lag in Internet penetration.

The Journal supplement on transportation speaks breathlessly of all the potential in using technology to create a digital train control system, smart roads, and cars that will automatically choose the best routes and most efficient speeds. It also speaks of new aircraft guidance systems, more and better bridges, electric cars, cars that talk to each other, and much more.

There are only two problems -- cost and policy. J

ust to maintain the current transit and highway systems will take about $100 billion above current annual revenues for the next 25 years. To improve the system would take $150 billion annually. China, with an economy less than one-third the size of the U.S. economy, is spending about $1 trillion on upgrading its infrastructure. The total U.S. bill for a modern infrastructure would probably be on the order of $5 trillion to $10 trillion over the next quarter-century. That's a lot of money, and it's unlikely to come from either increased taxes or reduced government expenditures. It could, however, come from an Infrastructure Bank that could use an initial government-funded capitalization to leverage private capital on a project-by-project basis.

But don't hold your breath on this. It's not going to happen because of the policy issue. Or perhaps I should better say the jurisdiction issue. As currently structured and organized, the U.S. government makes infrastructure and other appropriations in the context of a legion of committees and subcommittees, each of whose chairman can be counted on to fight to the death to maintain oversight and appropriation authority of his/her piece of the budget. A bank would preclude this jurisdiction by taking much of the project-by-project decision power and thus the political credit for projects out of the hands of the chairmen.

The Journal supplement further talks about the need for states and municipalities to cooperate and coordinate on their bridge, harbor, road, airport, and other infrastructure projects. But that is not going to happen either. All the incentives in the system run the other way. States build duplicate harbors and airports and then compete to attract traffic. Even sillier, they compete to see who can give the biggest tax breaks to attract investment. Take the case of some of the European and Korean plans to invest in new auto assembly plants in the United States. The decisions to invest in America were based on fundamental considerations of supply chains, appealing to customers, costs of production, and so forth. Those investments were going to be made in America under almost any circumstances. Yet by competing to see who could give the biggest bribes, the winning states reduced the value of those investments to the United States.

The bottom line here is that the United States does not have an economic problem or a competitiveness problem so much as it has a political problem. Its institutions, largely created for the 18th and 19th centuries, are simply no longer adequate to shape the debate and the decisions we need to arrest the slide toward Third World status that has taken place in my lifetime.

RandomGuy
05-25-2011, 10:26 AM
I'll post a few more of the articles over my lunch hour.

Wild Cobra
05-25-2011, 10:38 AM
Well, I would say that most of our infrastructure development was before we started spending such a significant portion or our budget on social costs. Developing nations don't have these same costs and can develop infrastructure like we did before the mid 70's.

coyotes_geek
05-25-2011, 10:44 AM
We've been underfunding our infrastructure relative to growth/demand for decades now. We're going to pay a price for it.

MannyIsGod
05-25-2011, 10:49 AM
They had a real chance to fix this shit with the stimulus and fucked it up.

coyotes_geek
05-25-2011, 10:51 AM
It could, however, come from an Infrastructure Bank that could use an initial government-funded capitalization to leverage private capital on a project-by-project basis.

This is the future of American infrastructure right here.

coyotes_geek
05-25-2011, 10:54 AM
They had a real chance to fix this shit with the stimulus and fucked it up.

+10000000000

Only 5% of the stimulus bill went to infrastructure projects.

Capt Bringdown
05-25-2011, 10:56 AM
Well, I would say that most of our infrastructure development was before we started spending such a significant portion or our budget on social costs. Developing nations don't have these same costs and can develop infrastructure like we did before the mid 70's.

Social costs such as our glorious for-profit health care system that delivers lousy outcomes and soaring fees.

Wild Cobra
05-25-2011, 10:56 AM
They had a real chance to fix this shit with the stimulus and fucked it up.
Although I was against such a large stimulus, I agree it would have been better spent on actual infrastructure.

Maybe improve the roads where there is congestion. Maybe fund a moon base. Anything that would actually put USA citizens into jobs. Not bailout the elite for poor investment decisions.

Blake
05-25-2011, 10:58 AM
What's an example of research that we can't do but south koreans can because their internet is that much faster than ours?

CosmicCowboy
05-25-2011, 11:06 AM
We saw how well the soviets centralized planning worked.

boutons_deux
05-25-2011, 11:09 AM
Cost of Repairing the US's Crumbling Infrastructure? $2 Trillion


http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/study-2-trillion-needed-for-us-infrastructure/2011/05/16/AFyppB5G_story.html?hpid=z3

===========

Why doesn't the "free market" solve the infrastructure problem?

Why hasn't the free market modernized the nation's electrical grid? Water and sewage? etc, etc.

boutons_deux
05-25-2011, 11:10 AM
"We saw how well the soviets centralized planning worked."

We see how well the UCA's financial and airline deregualtion worked.

DarrinS
05-25-2011, 11:19 AM
First to third world? Really?


I don't know about the rest of the US, but it appears that they are CONSTANTLY reinvesting in infrastructure in Texas. The roads, for sure.

TeyshaBlue
05-25-2011, 11:22 AM
Fucking toll roads up here.:bang

Wild Cobra
05-25-2011, 11:31 AM
What's an example of research that we can't do but south koreans can because their internet is that much faster than ours?
Got me there.

Here is something those propagating such facts leave out though. Population density. Because of a far higher city density in Korea, the material cost isn't as costly per person for high speed internet. Distance per person for fiber and cable have both real labor and material costs.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/15/Countries_by_population_density.svg/800px-Countries_by_population_density.svg.png

RandomGuy
05-25-2011, 11:35 AM
What's an example of research that we can't do but south koreans can because their internet is that much faster than ours?

I wondered that as well. Sorry I don't have an answer. I might try to find it at some point.

Wild Cobra
05-25-2011, 11:37 AM
Something else to chew on.

New York city has the highest population density in the USA at about 10,000/sq mile. Seoul Korea is about double that.

Wild Cobra
05-25-2011, 11:38 AM
I wondered that as well. Sorry I don't have an answer. I might try to find it at some point.
I'll bet on internet searches, they don't get all the extra BS we get on our searches. Not the whole of the issue, but I'll bet it contributes. Once you get to tier 4 level and above, I don't think most users will notice much difference on the actual data speed, unless they are doing massive data exchanges.

RandomGuy
05-25-2011, 11:39 AM
Fucking toll roads up here.:bang

Toll roads are a pretty good idea, given how little we tax gasoline.

If you want to use up the road by driving on it, pay for it.

Better would be simply to tax gasoline much more, and avoid the overhead that invariably accompanies toll systems though.

Take a good chunk of the gasoline taxes and use that to fund roads, or other transportation infrastructure projects.

RandomGuy
05-25-2011, 11:40 AM
Something else to chew on.

New York city has the highest population density in the USA at about 10,000/sq mile. Seoul Korea is about double that.

I am pretty sure that densities will change as gasoline gets more expensive.

RandomGuy
05-25-2011, 11:43 AM
First to third world? Really?


I don't know about the rest of the US, but it appears that they are CONSTANTLY reinvesting in infrastructure in Texas. The roads, for sure.

We build new roads, but don't spend enough to maintain them apparently.

It is a well known facet of city planning that we tend to skimp on maintenance, and building capacity in advance of projected growth. Things don't get done until systems are strained to crisis levels.

CosmicCowboy
05-25-2011, 11:46 AM
What's an example of research that we can't do but south koreans can because their internet is that much faster than ours?

Their internet is so advanced, when they search "Jennifer Love Hewitt nude" she really is naked.

Wild Cobra
05-25-2011, 11:47 AM
We build new roads, but don't spend enough to maintain them apparently.

It is a well known facet of city planning that we tend to skimp on maintenance, and building capacity in advance of projected growth. Things don't get done until systems are strained to crisis levels.
In our city, the liberals actually admit they want to make it harder for cars and easier for bicycles and public transportation, even when a MAX ride is subsidized over $20 per person.

RandomGuy
05-25-2011, 11:55 AM
We saw how well the soviets centralized planning worked.

No one is advocating soviet style central planning of the entire economy.

The problem is that we have virtually no coherent national plan at all. We can't and don't even do much regional planning.

What we end up with is a system of inefficient local and state solutions that hinder growth. This is especially true when you get special interest groups paying for gimmies from state legislatures and local city councils.

Too much emphasis is given to narrow special interests at the expense of wider systemic efficiency.

clambake
05-25-2011, 11:56 AM
could you provide a link to where they actually said "we want to make it harder for cars"?

RandomGuy
05-25-2011, 11:58 AM
In our city, the liberals actually admit they want to make it harder for cars and easier for bicycles and public transportation, even when a MAX ride is subsidized over $20 per person.

I am not entirely sure that American cities are really set up well for mass transit systems due to the density factors you cite.

BUT

If you don't think vehicles and cars are subsidized equivalently, you would be in for something of a shock if you delve into transporation budgets.

Wild Cobra
05-25-2011, 12:03 PM
An interesting article:

Portland Transit: Forward into the Past (http://www.ti.org/transit.html)

Please tell me how cars are subsidized.

---add---

Another:

Portland Going Nowhere (http://spectator.org/archives/2011/03/08/portland-going-nowhere)

coyotes_geek
05-25-2011, 01:06 PM
Toll roads are a pretty good idea, given how little we tax gasoline.

If you want to use up the road by driving on it, pay for it.

Better would be simply to tax gasoline much more, and avoid the overhead that invariably accompanies toll systems though.

Take a good chunk of the gasoline taxes and use that to fund roads, or other transportation infrastructure projects.

Raising the gas tax is long overdue.

MannyIsGod
05-25-2011, 01:46 PM
Roads are super subsidized. If we only built the roads we paid for we'd have the interstate system and some main roads but everything else would be dirt. Its ridiculous to me that people bring up subsidation with mass transit but don't apply that logic to the extra roads that hardly get used but are necessary to make the entire system functional.

MannyIsGod
05-25-2011, 01:46 PM
Also I have no idea if subsidation is a word or if I spelled it right.

boutons_deux
05-25-2011, 01:47 PM
Raising the gas tax won't ever happen.

In fact any national policy to discourage fuel consumption will never happen.

The oilcos are one of the many part-owners of DC.

The oilcos, and their investors, are looking forward to $Ts in profits coming in the next few years as oil supply fails increasingly to meet demand. Add on +30%-50% inflation due to oil traders profits.

Corps and capitalists are pushing Western civilization over a cliff and the Repugs are greasing the skids.

TeyshaBlue
05-25-2011, 01:47 PM
Also I have no idea if subsidation is a word or if I spelled it right.

lol

subsidization

boutons_deux
05-25-2011, 01:48 PM
Internet, MoFo, do you use it?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/subsidization

johnsmith
05-25-2011, 03:24 PM
Here's a whacky idea, how about we take the existing gas tax, leave it as it is, and spend it on....oh, I don't know, only what it was intended for?


Wait, now that I just re-read that, this sounds impossible and just plain foolish.......back to the raising the gas tax idea.

LnGrrrR
05-25-2011, 03:29 PM
I'm doing my best to upgrade/maintain federal network infrastructure. Does that count? :lol

boutons_deux
05-25-2011, 04:51 PM
water networks, sewer networks, electrical distribution networks are all much more important that bits and bytes, sooner or later.