Dirk is one of the top 2 players in the NBA

[Nathan89]

Does anyone disagree with this fact?

Discuss.

[Reck]

Overall, of course not.

Right now. I would agree.

[ElNono]

I do... besides Manu, Lebron and Wade are still playing...

[Ghazi]

I do... besides Manu, Lebron and Wade are still playing...

:lmao David West > Dirk

good call, bitch

[endrity]

LeBron.....

And then Dirk!

[dirk4mvp]

LeBron is the only player clearly better right now.

[ElNono]

:lmao David West > Dirk

good call, bitch

:lol I actually ranked Dirk ahead of Capt West in my last ranking... honest... I'll look up the thread if you want

[lil_penny]

LeBron.....

And then Dirk!

[HarlemHeat37]

Right now, I would agree that Lebron is the only player that would clearly stand out..

After that, it would be a toss-up between Wade, Dirk and Howard IMO..

[Nathan89]

Overall, of course not.

Right now. I would agree.

Waiting patiently for names.

[endrity]

Right now, I would agree that Lebron is the only player that would clearly stand out..

After that, it would be a toss-up between Wade, Dirk and Howard IMO..

Word. Especially on Howard, I think Dirk is a bit more efficient than Wade, but Howard is a monster. These four are the best players in the league right now. Rose, Durant, are a bit far away. CP3 is still not there physically, and Kobe just got old in front of us.

[Nathan89]

Right now, I would agree that Lebron is the only player that would clearly stand out..

After that, it would be a toss-up between Wade, Dirk and Howard IMO..

Howard:lmao

Remind me again what team knocked him out of the playoffs.

Wade can't impact a game like Dirk, IMO. Dirk consistently gets his numbers with a high shooting percentage. A must when you play with only role players.

[Giuseppe]

He's gonna have to ring. Otherwise, he's just cashin' checks & shinin' shoes.

[DAF86]

Howard:lmao

Remind me again what team knocked him out of the playoffs.

Wade can't impact a game like Dirk, IMO. Dirk consistently gets his numbers with a high shooting percentage. A must when you play with only role players.

Howard: 27pts on 63% shooting, 15.5 rbs, 2.8 blks and DPOY

Yeah, I would say is fair to rank him ahead of Dirk.

[Ghazi]

Howard: 27pts on 63% shooting, 15.5 rbs, 2.8 blks and DPOY

Yeah, I would say is fair to rank him ahead of Dirk.

is it fair to rank Manu "skullfucked by 8th seed" Ginobili ahead of Dirk?

:lol Manu > Dirk
:lol DAF
:lol hating on the best PF in the universe

[crc21209]

In these playoffs Dirk sure as hell has been a top 2 player in the NBA, with LeBron being slightly right above him...

[Ghazi]

He's gonna have to ring. Otherwise, he's just cashin' checks & shinin' shoes.

u mad? :lmao

as for Dirk, I consider him 4th best... best player in the West... if he wins it all this year with this good but not great supporting cast.. then he's the best player on the planet..

[DAF86]

Ghazi is this you?


TBGzj-ojB8M

[florige]

Howard: 27pts on 63% shooting, 15.5 rbs, 2.8 blks and DPOY

Yeah, I would say is fair to rank him ahead of Dirk.




I can't agree. Dirk can take over a game literally. I guess going off of sheer numbers maybe. But when the game is on the line I would still 10 out of 10 times rather the ball be in Dirk's hand verses Howards 7 days out of the week.

[BRHornet45]

I do... besides Manu, Lebron and Wade are still playing...

lmao Manu ... what a fucking joke

[jARS mEsH sEt]

Top 10 Players in the 2010-2011 Post season according to PER

1. Chris Paul 29.03
2. Dirk Nowitzki 27.47
3. Lebron James 26.85
4. Dwight Howard 26.21
5. Dwayne Wade 25.44
6. Kevin Durant 24.64
7. Derrick Rose 23.31
8. Carmelo Anthony 22.62
9. Manu Ginobili 22.44
10. Zach Randolph 22.10


10 Worst players in the NBA 2010-2011 Post season according to PER ("1" being the worst) -

1. Landry Fields 0.34
2. Mike Bibby 2.67
3. Chauncey Billups 3.44
4. DeShawn Stevenson 3.47
5. Jason Collins 3.86
6. Wilson Chandler 4.04
7. Bill Walker 4.21
8. Omer Asik 4.37
9. Glen Davis 5.24
10. Nazr Mohammed 5.61

[BRHornet45]

top 10 players in the 2010-2011 post season according to per

1. Chris paul 29.03
2. Dirk Nowitzki 27.47


the king!!!!

[DAF86]

I can't agree. Dirk can take over a game literally. I guess going off of sheer numbers maybe. But when the game is on the line I would still 10 out of 10 times rather the ball be in Dirk's hand verses Howards 7 days out of the week.

When the game is on the line 10 out of 10 times I would rather have the ball in Ray Allen hands instead of 2000 Shaq but that doesn't mean Ray is the better player.

[BRHornet45]

Top 10 Players in the 2010-2011 Post season according to PER

9. Manu Ginobili 22.44


bald ass, baby back bitch

[jARS mEsH sEt]

Mike Bibby, Udonis Haslem, Mike Miller, Joel Anthony, and Mario Chalmers are among the 50 worst players in the NBA in the post season right now.

[DAF86]

bald ass, baby back bitch

You forget: "broken arm"

[Sean Cagney]

bald ass, baby back bitch

LOL YOU hate the SPURS, we get it by now BR.

[Sean Cagney]

:lmao
the king!!!!

STILL NEVER GOT ClOSE TO A RING!!!!!!!!!!!!!:lmao:lmao

[florige]

When the game is on the line 10 out of 10 times I would rather have the ball in Ray Allen hands instead of 2000 Shaq but that doesn't mean Ray is the better player.




Ray Allen? Even though Shaq got ALL the calls in 2000 and was still dominate?

[joshdaboss]

LeBron, Wade, Howard, Paul are all obvious.

[ElNono]

lmao Manu ... what a fucking joke

lol son, you just mad because he beat Belinelli for an All-Star spot...

[mystargtr34]

1. LeBron
2. Howard
3. Dirk
4. Wade
5. Kobe

Tbh

[BRHornet45]

LeBron, Wade, Howard, Paul are all obvious.

now this is a man who speaks truth

[BRHornet45]

lol son, you just mad because he beat Belinelli for an All-Star spot...

LOL Belinelli!

son we got a new "Great white hope" now and that is Aaron "Tha Gasol Killa" Gray

[Nathan89]

Howard: 27pts on 63% shooting, 15.5 rbs, 2.8 blks and DPOY

Yeah, I would say is fair to rank him ahead of Dirk.

Tbh, I don't care what stats you give me. His team was beat down by the Hawks in the first round. I personally don't think the Hawks are that good and if Howard was even close to as dominate as Dirk he would have been able to lead his team to a first round victory. I know payroll doesn't mean everything but the Magic have spent a ton of money on their roster and certainly have enough talent to beat the Hawks.

Flips coin

Dirk on the other hand is now sitting in the finals without a second option. He kept the team from crumbling after the Mavs choked a game vs the Blazers. He led his team in a sweep of the two time defending champs. For crying out loud the Lakers had four of the top five players on both teams. And tonight he slammed the last nail in the coffin of OKC.

If you swap D.Howard and Dirk do you really think the Mavs would have beat the Lakers? I absolutely do not think that he could have led the team vs. the Lakers.

It boils down to if you think Howard had enough talent around him to beat the Hawks. I already said that I do. So no matter what statistics or how great I think he is at defense, Imo there must be other variables that I am overrating or overlooking about Howard. Same goes for Dirk. You can say that he is only a scorer and not that great of a defender but the fact remains he is winning without a second option. To me that means you are underrating how good he actually is at certain aspects like scoring and defending. Perhaps not even factoring in his leadership, creating ability, bbiq, composure, ability to score consistently at the end of games,etc... Most these games have been won in the fourth quarter, could Howard takeover in the fourth? Doubtful. I've seen many games where Howard has lost his composure. Perhaps this negatively affects his teammates play.

Dirk and Lebron are the top 2, IMO.

[DMX7]

LOL Belinelli!

son we got a new "Great white hope" now and that is Aaron "Tha Gasol Killa" Gray

Zing! I love it when you make racially charged puns. Mr. Sackler (tee-hee) and the Honorable Rev. James David Manning, PhD. would be proud.

[DAF86]

Tbh, I don't care what stats you give me. His team was beat down by the Hawks in the first round. I personally don't think the Hawks are that good and if Howard was even close to as dominate as Dirk he would have been able to lead his team to a first round victory. I know payroll doesn't mean everything but the Magic have spent a ton of money on their roster and certainly have enough talent to beat the Hawks.

Flips coin

Dirk on the other hand is now sitting in the finals without a second option. He kept the team from crumbling after the Mavs choked a game vs the Blazers. He led his team in a sweep of the two time defending champs. For crying out loud the Lakers had four of the top five players on both teams. And tonight he slammed the last nail in the coffin of OKC.

If you swap D.Howard and Dirk do you really think the Mavs would have beat the Lakers? I absolutely do not think that he could have led the team vs. the Lakers.

It boils down to if you think Howard had enough talent around him to beat the Hawks. I already said that I do. So no matter what statistics or how great I think he is at defense, Imo there must be other variables that I am overrating or overlooking about Howard. Same goes for Dirk. You can say that he is only a scorer and not that great of a defender but the fact remains he is winning without a second option. To me that means you are underrating how good he actually is at certain aspects like scoring and defending. Perhaps not even factoring in his leadership, creating ability, bbiq, composure, ability to score consistently at the end of games,etc... Most these games have been won in the fourth quarter, could Howard takeover in the fourth? Doubtful. I've seen many games where Howard has lost his composure. Perhaps this negatively affects his teammates play.

Dirk and Lebron are the top 2, IMO.

Everybody knows that Howard > Nowitzki on D, where most people give Dirk the edge over Dwight is in the offensive end but there Howard has more or less the same pts as Dirk and is more efficient.

Basketball is a team sport, Lebron has been the best player in the NBA for quite some time and he has never won it all. Look at the help Dwight had against Atlanta during these playoffs.

Nelson:13.2 pts, 37FG%
Richardson:10 pts, 33 FG%
Turkoglu:9 pts, 29 FG%
Bass:7 pts, 42 FG%
Arenas: 8.6 pts, 42 FG%
Reddick: 6.7 pts, 35 FG%

Do you think Dirk would have won that series for Orlando playing instead of Dwight? A player combining the skills of MJ, Magic, Bird, Wilt and Kareem wouldn't have been able to win a playoffs series with that kind of help.

IMO Howard is the better player but I'm OK with others thinking Dirk is better, the thing is you even add one of these: :lmao when someone mentioned Howard.

[Nathan89]

Everybody knows that Howard > Nowitzki on D, where most people give Dirk the edge over Dwight is in the offensive end but there Howard has more or less the same pts as Dirk and is more efficient.

Basketball is a team sport, Lebron has been the best player in the NBA for quite some time and he has never won it all. Look at the help Dwight had against Atlanta during these playoffs.

Nelson:13.2 pts, 37FG%
Richardson:10 pts, 33 FG%
Turkoglu:9 pts, 29FG%
Bass:7 pts, 42FG%
Arenas: 8.6 pts, 42FG%
Reddick: 6.7 pts, 35FG%

Do you think Dirk would have won that series for Orlando playing instead of Dwight? A player combining the skills of MJ, Magic, Bird, Wilt and Kareem wouldn't have been able to win a playoffs series with that kind of help.

IMO Howard is the better player but I'm OK with others thinking Dirk is better, the thing is you even add one of these: :lmao when someone mentioned Howard.

Yes we all know that Howard is better on D but Dirk is better at offense and clearly better at all the other variables that make a great basketball player.

You gave me a list of pretty good players,IMO. I just can't understand why Howard couldn't maximize the talent of his team. You know make his teammates better than they actually are. I mean just last year Richardson average 19.8ppg over 16 games in the playoffs.

If the Dirk was on the Mavs the team wouldn't have traded Gortat. So I do think with the combination of Dirk and Gortat with the rest of the Magic players they would have beat the Hawks.

[DAF86]

Yes we all know that Howard is better on D but Dirk is better at offense and clearly better at all the other variables that make a great basketball player.

You gave me a list of pretty good players,IMO. I just can't understand why Howard couldn't maximize the talent of his team. You know make his teammates better than they actually are. I mean just last year Richardson average 19.8ppg over 16 games in the playoffs.

If the Dirk was on the Mavs the team wouldn't have traded Gortat. So I do think with the combination of Dirk and Gortat with the rest of the Magic players they would have beat the Hawks.

Now you're just reaching, if how a role player performs depends solely on how good a franchise player is to make teammates better then Howard had no problems making his teammates better in '09, why would he have a problem now that he's a better player? And again if role players performances are determined by the ability to make teammates better by the number one guy, well Dirk has been shitty in that department for most of his career 'cause I always hear Mavsfans talk about how much Dirk's teammates have sucked during the years.

IMO the big advantage Dwight has on defense and the close he is to Dirk on offensive production makes me think Howard is better and I'm sure most fans would agree with me but it's ok that you think Dirk is better than him, what it's not ok is that you think is lmao worthy to place Dwight ahead of Dirk.

[Giuseppe]

if

tee, hee.

[TheManFromAcme]

1. LeBron
2. Howard
3. Dirk
4. Wade
5. Kobe

Tbh


to hell with all of you...

THIS is the most accurate list :tu

[endrity]

Top 10 Players in the 2010-2011 Post season according to PER

1. Chris Paul 29.03
2. Dirk Nowitzki 27.47
3. Lebron James 26.85
4. Dwight Howard 26.21
5. Dwayne Wade 25.44
6. Kevin Durant 24.64
7. Derrick Rose 23.31
8. Carmelo Anthony 22.62
9. Manu Ginobili 22.44
10. Zach Randolph 22.10


10 Worst players in the NBA 2010-2011 Post season according to PER ("1" being the worst) -

1. Landry Fields 0.34
2. Mike Bibby 2.67
3. Chauncey Billups 3.44
4. DeShawn Stevenson 3.47
5. Jason Collins 3.86
6. Wilson Chandler 4.04
7. Bill Walker 4.21
8. Omer Asik 4.37
9. Glen Davis 5.24
10. Nazr Mohammed 5.61

This is where the limitations of PER are clear. Asik, as even Hollinger admits, is an elite defender of the league. Yet that is not refleced in PER.

[endrity]

Now you're just reaching, if how a role player performs depends solely on how good a franchise player is to make teammates better then Howard had no problems making his teammates better in '09, why would he have a problem now that he's a better player? And again if role players performances are determined by the ability to make teammates better by the number one guy, well Dirk has been shitty in that department for most of his career 'cause I always hear Mavsfans talk about how much Dirk's teammates have sucked during the years.

IMO the big advantage Dwight has on defense and the close he is to Dirk on offensive production makes me think Howard is better and I'm sure most fans would agree with me but it's ok that you think Dirk is better than him, what it's not ok is that you think is lmao worthy to place Dwight ahead of Dirk.

Man, Dirk most have done something to you cause the hate is unbelievable. And this is coming from a guy who thinks Howard should have won an MVP this year btw.

Look, I said LeBron is the only guy ahead of Dirk. Howard, to me is the other guy who is arguably better right now. I think Dirk is ahead of both Kobe and Wade. CP3 has to prove he is all the way back physically.

First, stop with all the regular season stats. Durant just called to say they are not necessarily the best measuring stick. Dirk clearly paces himself a lot during the season, as he should. His shooting though was phenomenal and allowed him to score a lot, 23 ppg, with very few shots and energy expanded. As the playoffs have shown over and over again, Dirk is probably the most talented offensive guy the in the league, despite the ppg numbers from the season.

The other key point, which is maybe not as important during the season, but key in the playoffs is his FT shooting. Because of it, the Magic completely change the way they play offense in the last few minutes of the game. And different is not better in this case. Their execution becomes Thunder-like, because they need to protect Howard. Very shortly, these last two comebacks don't happen if Howard is there instead of Dirk. He can't take over games. That is the key measuring stick for a franchise player.

[Brazil]

Dirk is having 30 pts 50% FG 90% FT when it matters he is the clear number 2 IMO behind Lebron.
With a game on the line I would prefer 10 times to have Dirk than Lebron but overall Lebron has more impact during a game on both side on the floor with his passing, rebounding and bloking activity.
Dirk has been very weak at rebounding the ball, 6 reb a game with 40 mn for a 7'0 is not enough IMO.

[dunkman]

He's definitely in another class compared to Kobe at this point and he's also much better than Durant, no question about. But it has to be seen if he's better than Wade or LeBron. In '06 Wade was clearly better.

[cheguevara]

Right now this is the way it looks:
1. Dirk
2. Lebron
3. Wade
4. Rose/Durant

[TampaDude]

Dirk is the better scorer, but LeBron is the better defender.

Toss up, IMHO.

Guess they'll have to settle it in the Finals.

[stretch]

Dirk's offense >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dwight's offense

its not even close. anyone who says otherwise must have been dropped on their head as an infant

[DMC]

Dirk is playing how he's played for years. He finally has a team around him.

[JamStone]

Based on these playoffs and these playoffs alone, there's a strong enough argument to make that Dirk is THE top player in the league. He's not better than LeBron but I think he's played better up to this point in the post season.

Dwight Howard puts up better all around numbers than Dirk. But there's something intangible that D12 lacks. As impactful as his defense and rebounding and even sometimes his offense is, you just don't get the sense that he alone can will his team to win or put the team on his back and deliver. You get that sense from Dirk. Perhaps it's the bias of offensive players getting more due than defensive players. I don't know. But going into the fourth quarter with the score tied and I had to choose either Dwight or Dirk to win the game any way possible, defense, offense, rebounding, playmaking, what have you, I would take Dirk over Dwight. No matter what the overall stats say, I would trust Dirk more to find a way to will the team to victory. But I guess it's a feeling that comes from the moment. I'm sure the answer would be different in the 2009 playoffs around this time.

[stretch]

Based on these playoffs and these playoffs alone, there's a strong enough argument to make that Dirk is THE top player in the league. He's not better than LeBron but I think he's played better up to this point in the post season.

Dwight Howard puts up better all around numbers than Dirk. But there's something intangible that D12 lacks. As impactful as his defense and rebounding and even sometimes his offense is, you just don't get the sense that he alone can will his team to win or put the team on his back and deliver. You get that sense from Dirk. Perhaps it's the bias of offensive players getting more due than defensive players. I don't know. But going into the fourth quarter with the score tied and I had to choose either Dwight or Dirk to win the game any way possible, defense, offense, rebounding, playmaking, what have you, I would take Dirk over Dwight. No matter what the overall stats say, I would trust Dirk more to find a way to will the team to victory. But I guess it's a feeling that comes from the moment. I'm sure the answer would be different in the 2009 playoffs around this time.

I think scoring/playmaking ability is the reason you trust Dirk to put a team on his back over Dwight. Defense, rebounding, and all that still is extremely important, but at the end of the day, it doesnt matter how many rebounds, steals, blocks you have... all that matters is having more points than your opponent. Rebounds, steals, and blocks help you get more chances to get points, and prevents your opponent from getting points, but in the end, points are the most valuable stat a team can have.

I think a good comparison would be Timmy in his prime, or Howard. Both are a lot alike, in that they are/were monsters on defense and rebounding. In the end, I along with anyone else would take Timmy because when Timmy was dialed in, there is not a single player on Earth who can stop him from getting his team points, whether by scoring himself, or finding others for easy open shots. You can't say the same about Howard though.

People put teams on their backs by being able to score points easily.

[Killakobe81]

An argument can be made at the moment that dirk is the "baddest man" on the planet that dribbles a ball. But let's not get carried away. I think if Dirk rings, this Playoff run will rank with shaq in 2000, Hakeem's back2 back, and one duncan's (forget the year) as the best playoff runs since MJ. But that still doesnt mean he is a top 2 player.

This is very subjective but if Orlando is called and asked to trade Dirk for Dwight (unless they could NOt re-sign him) they laugh and say no. Chicago says no for rose and Miami would not trade Wade or Lebron. Not saying they are all definitely better but a reasonable person could argue they are especially when you factor in defense. After that most would say yes unless they had sentimental or marketing reasons not to like the Lakers with Kobe or Spurs with Duncan.

[Killakobe81]

Based on these playoffs and these playoffs alone, there's a strong enough argument to make that Dirk is THE top player in the league. He's not better than LeBron but I think he's played better up to this point in the post season.
Dwight Howard puts up better all around numbers than Dirk. But there's something intangible that D12 lacks. As impactful as his defense and rebounding and even sometimes his offense is, you just don't get the sense that he alone can will his team to win or put the team on his back and deliver. You get that sense from Dirk. Perhaps it's the bias of offensive players getting more due than defensive players. I don't know. But going into the fourth quarter with the score tied and I had to choose either Dwight or Dirk to win the game any way possible, defense, offense, rebounding, playmaking, what have you, I would take Dirk over Dwight. No matter what the overall stats say, I would trust Dirk more to find a way to will the team to victory. But I guess it's a feeling that comes from the moment. I'm sure the answer would be different in the 2009 playoffs around this time.

Agree with both parts of that statement ...

[dirk4mvp]

Dirk is playing how he's played for years. He finally has a team around him.

With the way some people on this forum are acting, it seems like Dirk just figured out how to play basketball this post season.

[stretch]

This is very subjective but if Orlando is called and asked to trade Dirk for Dwight (unless they could NOt re-sign him) they laugh and say no. Chicago says no for rose and Miami would not trade Wade or Lebron. Not saying they are all definitely better but a reasonable person could argue they are especially when you factor in defense.

This is flawed reasoning as well, because some of it has to do with how the teams are built, and the age factor.

I think a better way to go about it, is by determining who you would most like to build a team from scratch around this year.

Right now, Dirk of course should be in the top 5, and the way he has been playing in these playoffs, some may even consider him as #1. I don't, as I would take Lebron 1st, but I can see arguments being made.

However I will say this... I don't think there is a star in the league that could produce more with less "star" help than Dirk. If you gave Lebron, Kobe, Dwight, Durant or other such guys teams similar to Dirk, in that they are surrounded with a well balanced supporting cast, but without a clearcut legit #2 scoring option, I don't know if any of their teams will do as well as Dirk's does, except maybe Lebron, considering what he was able to pull off in Cleveland with that shitbag of a team.

[endrity]

An argument can be made at the moment that dirk is the "baddest man" on the planet that dribbles a ball. But let's not get carried away. I think if Dirk rings, this Playoff run will rank with shaq in 2000, Hakeem's back2 back, and one duncan's (forget the year) as the best playoff runs since MJ. But that still doesnt mean he is a top 2 player.

This is very subjective but if Orlando is called and asked to trade Dirk for Dwight (unless they could NOt re-sign him) they laugh and say no. Chicago says no for rose and Miami would not trade Wade or Lebron. Not saying they are all definitely better but a reasonable person could argue they are especially when you factor in defense. After that most would say yes unless they had sentimental or marketing reasons not to like the Lakers with Kobe or Spurs with Duncan.

That's got to do with age. But if you call them right now, and say who do you want for this playoff run, they would think hard about it.

[DAF86]

Man, Dirk most have done something to you cause the hate is unbelievable. And this is coming from a guy who thinks Howard should have won an MVP this year btw.

Look, I said LeBron is the only guy ahead of Dirk. Howard, to me is the other guy who is arguably better right now. I think Dirk is ahead of both Kobe and Wade. CP3 has to prove he is all the way back physically.

First, stop with all the regular season stats. Durant just called to say they are not necessarily the best measuring stick. Dirk clearly paces himself a lot during the season, as he should. His shooting though was phenomenal and allowed him to score a lot, 23 ppg, with very few shots and energy expanded. As the playoffs have shown over and over again, Dirk is probably the most talented offensive guy the in the league, despite the ppg numbers from the season.

The other key point, which is maybe not as important during the season, but key in the playoffs is his FT shooting. Because of it, the Magic completely change the way they play offense in the last few minutes of the game. And different is not better in this case. Their execution becomes Thunder-like, because they need to protect Howard. Very shortly, these last two comebacks don't happen if Howard is there instead of Dirk. He can't take over games. That is the key measuring stick for a franchise player.

I hate Dirk because I say that Dwight should be ranked ahead of him? I've praised Dirk a lot during this season the thing is you just notice when I criticize him or like in this case I think a player is better than him. Even you are saying that Dwight could be ahead of him, why are you picking on me for saying the same? I don't get it.

And I didn't post any regular season stats, all the stats I posted in this thread are postseason stats.

[badfish22]

:lol the amount of effort DAF puts in to discredit Dirk is embarrassing.

[Ghazi]

badfish22

[DAF86]

:lol the amount of effort DAF puts in to discredit Dirk is embarrassing.

Yeah, saying he's a top 3/5 player in the league is discrediting him.

[endrity]

Yeah, saying he's a top 3/5 player in the league is discrediting him.

You should say that to yourself a bit more often, because you never lose a good opportunity to knock him down.

[DAF86]

You should say that to yourself a bit more often, because you never lose a good opportunity to knock him down.

I like arguing with Mavsfans, is the funniest part of ST.

[Nathan89]

The top 2 players in the Nba meet in the finals. I wonder when the last time that happened was.

[Amaso]

The top 2 players in the Nba meet in the finals. I wonder when the last time that happened was.

Damn, it has been a long time. Kobe/Lebron have been the best 2 for the past 4-5 years or so now, and they obviously haven't been in the finals together. Then before that was Kobe/Duncan/Shaq and they were all in the same conference.

[endrity]

The top 2 players in the Nba meet in the finals. I wonder when the last time that happened was.

Probably 97.

[TD 21]

The hyperbole is Walton-esque at this point. It's '06 all over again, when the masses claimed going into the Finals that he was a better player than Wade. Have you people lost your minds? Not only James, but Wade and Howard are clearly better than him, too. This has nothing to do with my being a Spurs fan and him being a Mav, or with him being white or any other thing Mavs fans want to say or infer. I've always had a hard time putting largely one dimensional players in the top five. I never had Iverson in my top five, either.

I'm going to give Bryant the start of next season to see where he's at before making a final determination, because he wasn't fully healthy at the end of this past season. And with an all-time great, I'm always hesitant to prematurely drop them. I'm also going to do the same for Paul. Year two after knee surgery, he could return to form. If he does, I've got him in the top four. Rose also merits strong consideration.

Taking a small sample size and jumping to conclusions is foolish, though. For the 2010 calendar year, Ginobili was a top 5 player. He was better than Bryant. But that still didn't make him better overall. The same thing goes for Nowitzki, in comparison to Wade, Howard, etc.

[Amaso]

The hyperbole is Walton-esque at this point. It's '06 all over again, when the masses claimed going into the Finals that he was a better player than Wade. Have you people lost your minds? Not only James, but Wade and Howard are clearly better than him, too. This has nothing to do with my being a Spurs fan and him being a Mav, or with him being white or any other thing Mavs fans want to say or infer. I've always had a hard time putting largely one dimensional players in the top five. I never had Iverson in my top five, either.

I'm going to give Bryant the start of next season to see where he's at before making a final determination, because he wasn't fully healthy at the end of this past season. And with an all-time great, I'm always hesitant to prematurely drop them. I'm also going to do the same for Paul. Year two after knee surgery, he could return to form. If he does, I've got him in the top four. Rose also merits strong consideration.

Taking a small sample size and jumping to conclusions is foolish, though. For the 2010 calendar year, Ginobili was a top 5 player. He was better than Bryant. But that still didn't make him better overall. The same thing goes for Nowitzki, in comparison to Wade, Howard, etc.

notsureifsrs.jpg

[endrity]

The hyperbole is Walton-esque at this point. It's '06 all over again, when the masses claimed going into the Finals that he was a better player than Wade. Have you people lost your minds? Not only James, but Wade and Howard are clearly better than him, too. This has nothing to do with my being a Spurs fan and him being a Mav, or with him being white or any other thing Mavs fans want to say or infer. I've always had a hard time putting largely one dimensional players in the top five. I never had Iverson in my top five, either.

I'm going to give Bryant the start of next season to see where he's at before making a final determination, because he wasn't fully healthy at the end of this past season. And with an all-time great, I'm always hesitant to prematurely drop them. I'm also going to do the same for Paul. Year two after knee surgery, he could return to form. If he does, I've got him in the top four. Rose also merits strong consideration.

Taking a small sample size and jumping to conclusions is foolish, though. For the 2010 calendar year, Ginobili was a top 5 player. He was better than Bryant. But that still didn't make him better overall. The same thing goes for Nowitzki, in comparison to Wade, Howard, etc.


What exactly makes Wade better than him? Have you seen him this last round, his body is breaking down at 29.

[badfish22]

TD 21 being intentionally retarded again

[TD 21]

What exactly makes Wade better than him? Have you seen him this last round, his body is breaking down at 29.

He's a much more well rounded player. He's proven he can be a go-to player on a championship team. And statistically, there's nothing to suggest Nowitzki is better. PER isn't the be all end all, but when you're annually 2-4 when healthy, like Wade is, you are clearly amongst the top three players in the game. You don't do that by accident.

So because he had a bad round, clearly due to injury, we're supposed to ignore all the years of evidence that suggests he's better? Of course he's breaking down, look at the way he plays.

Would any non Mavs fans have even argued this pre-playoffs? But now everything's changed on the basis of a month and change? That makes no sense. If you want to say Nowitzki is playing as the second best player at the moment, I could see that, but not overall. Keep some perspective.

[DMC]

With the way some people on this forum are acting, it seems like Dirk just figured out how to play basketball this post season.

They only watch post season games I think.

Dirk has been a fucking terror forever. If anyone knows that, it's Spur fan.

[jARS mEsH sEt]

This is where the limitations of PER are clear. Asik, as even Hollinger admits, is an elite defender of the league. Yet that is not refleced in PER.

You're absolutely correct.

I have no problem admitting and recognizing the limits of PER.

That being said, I do tend to appreciate PER slightly more than merely performing the "eye test" backed up with arbitrary stats (this guy is better because he scores more points per game and just look at him!) as most sports fans do.

PER certainly is not the end all be all, but it's decent as a first look. I agree with you about Asik.


My "eye test" tells me that Dirk has been better than CP3 in the postseason. If I had to choose one player to build a team around, I'd choose Dirk. I would not mindlessly go by PER ranks and say "Oh look CP3 is better than Dirk clearly I should pick him as my franchise player!"

PER is merely a tool, it's not meant to be the end all be all ultimate ranking list.

[jARS mEsH sEt]

An argument can be made at the moment that dirk is the "baddest man" on the planet that dribbles a ball. But let's not get carried away. I think if Dirk rings, this Playoff run will rank with shaq in 2000, Hakeem's back2 back, and one duncan's (forget the year) as the best playoff runs since MJ. But that still doesnt mean he is a top 2 player.

This is very subjective but if Orlando is called and asked to trade Dirk for Dwight (unless they could NOt re-sign him) they laugh and say no. Chicago says no for rose and Miami would not trade Wade or Lebron. Not saying they are all definitely better but a reasonable person could argue they are especially when you factor in defense. After that most would say yes unless they had sentimental or marketing reasons not to like the Lakers with Kobe or Spurs with Duncan.

Dallas would scoff at giving away Dirk for Wade alone.

Lebron and Dirk > Wade and Lebron

Wade for Dirk would be a steal for Miami.

So no, I'm not sure I agree when you say Miami would not trade Wade OR Lebron for Dirk.

[Nathan89]

He's a much more well rounded player. He's proven he can be a go-to player on a championship team. And statistically, there's nothing to suggest Nowitzki is better. PER isn't the be all end all, but when you're annually 2-4 when healthy, like Wade is, you are clearly amongst the top three players in the game. You don't do that by accident.

So because he had a bad round, clearly due to injury, we're supposed to ignore all the years of evidence that suggests he's better? Of course he's breaking down, look at the way he plays.

Would any non Mavs fans have even argued this pre-playoffs? But now everything's changed on the basis of a month and change? That makes no sense. If you want to say Nowitzki is playing as the second best player at the moment, I could see that, but not overall. Keep some perspective.

What are you talking about a month and change? The guy would have led the Mavs to the best record in the NBA and got the MVP if he didn't get hurt this season. Month and change...:lmao

[endrity]

He's a much more well rounded player. He's proven he can be a go-to player on a championship team. And statistically, there's nothing to suggest Nowitzki is better. PER isn't the be all end all, but when you're annually 2-4 when healthy, like Wade is, you are clearly amongst the top three players in the game. You don't do that by accident.

So because he had a bad round, clearly due to injury, we're supposed to ignore all the years of evidence that suggests he's better? Of course he's breaking down, look at the way he plays.

Would any non Mavs fans have even argued this pre-playoffs? But now everything's changed on the basis of a month and change? That makes no sense. If you want to say Nowitzki is playing as the second best player at the moment, I could see that, but not overall. Keep some perspective.

You do know that Nowitzki has led the league in PER right? Something that Wade has never done. Wade has never been a better go to guy in the NBA, never.

I argued before the playoffs that Dirk should have been a First Team All-NBA, and Wade shouldn't even with a declining Kobe. The only reason why it didn't happen was because he got hurt, and the Mavs lost a lot of ground during the period. But the man was probably having his best shooting season up to that point, and was probably poised to take the MVP. So yes, this was also something that we believed before the playoffs.

I disagree with Howard, but I understand his argument because of how much of a difference he makes on defense. But I can't see much of an argument for Wade once you get past the fact that he is a guard and makes a lot of Sportcenter plays.

[mavsfan1000]

1. Lebron James
2. Dirk Nowitzki

[joshdaboss]

When LeBron shits all over Dirk and this Dallas team, we'll see how differently Dirk will be viewed here.

[mystargtr34]

Dirk's playoff performances since about 2001 have been pretty fuckin ridiculous. He is 7th in PER in playoff history... the only guys ahead of him...

1. Michael Jordan
2. George Mikan (:lol)
3. LeBron James
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Hakeem Olajuwon
6. Tim Duncan

He has been destroying defenses in the playoffs all decade... he's just been completely forgotten about and dismissed since 2007 due to first and second round exits because of pathetic supporting casts. For all the talk about LeBron's shitty supporting cast with Cleveland.. Dirk's supporting cast has been equally shitty until now.

[DPG21920]

I love how mav fans act like Dirk has always played THIS well and how they act like this is the only team Dirk has had with talent.

[stretch]

I love how mav fans act like Dirk has always played THIS well and how they act like this is the only team Dirk has had with talent.

Ever since the Golden State fiasco, he pretty much has. Look at the stats. Dude balled his ass off, while Terry and Howard was chucking up 20%, and other guys like Stackhouse and Dampier were completely useless.

[Killakobe81]

Dirk's playoff performances since about 2001 have been pretty fuckin ridiculous. He is 7th in PER in playoff history... the only guys ahead of him...

1. Michael Jordan
2. George Mikan (:lol)
3. LeBron James
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Hakeem Olajuwon
6. Tim Duncan

He has been destroying defenses in the playoffs all decade... he's just been completely forgotten about and dismissed since 2007 due to first and second round exits because of pathetic supporting casts. For all the talk about LeBron's shitty supporting cast with Cleveland.. Dirk's supporting cast has been equally shitty until now.

Mikan James and shaq in those spots are laughable ...
But dirk doesnt surprise me, he has been amazingly consistent playoff performer. But PER means little ...

[badfish22]

Dirk's playoff performances since about 2001 have been pretty fuckin ridiculous. He is 7th in PER in playoff history... the only guys ahead of him...

1. Michael Jordan
2. George Mikan (:lol)
3. LeBron James
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Hakeem Olajuwon
6. Tim Duncan

He has been destroying defenses in the playoffs all decade... he's just been completely forgotten about and dismissed since 2007 due to first and second round exits because of pathetic supporting casts. For all the talk about LeBron's shitty supporting cast with Cleveland.. Dirk's supporting cast has been equally shitty until now.

WinShares/48
1. Michael Jordan .2553
2. George Mikan .2541
3. LeBron James .2321
4. Dirk Nowitzki .2108
5. Magic Johnson .2108
next closest active player
9. Tim Duncan

PER
1. MJ 28.59
2. Mikan 28.51
3. James 27.03
4. Shaq 26.12
5. Hakeem 25.69
6. Tim Duncan 25.43
7. Dirk 24.96

Dirk has 7 of the highest single game PER's in playoff history.
Dirk 7
Jordan 9
Bird 0
James 8
Magic 1
Iverson 5
Chris Paul 3
Barkley 10
Kobe 4
Hakeem 4
Duncan 5
Karl Malone 3
Shaq 8

Top 20 performances all time in a playoff game based upon PER:
Barkley 3
Jordan 3
Dirk 3
Kobe 2
James 2
Iverson 2

[dirk4mvp]

This isn't Dirk's first good playoff performance? :wow

[Ghazi]

I love how mav fans act like Dirk has always played THIS well and how they act like this is the only team Dirk has had with talent.

It's true.

Just face it, U WAS WRONG BOUT DEM MAVS :smokin :smokin :smokin

[endrity]

WinShares/48
1. Michael Jordan .2553
2. George Mikan .2541
3. LeBron James .2321
4. Dirk Nowitzki .2108
5. Magic Johnson .2108
next closest active player
9. Tim Duncan

PER
1. MJ 28.59
2. Mikan 28.51
3. James 27.03
4. Shaq 26.12
5. Hakeem 25.69
6. Tim Duncan 25.43
7. Dirk 24.96

Dirk has 7 of the highest single game PER's in playoff history.
Dirk 7
Jordan 9
Bird 0
James 8
Magic 1
Iverson 5
Chris Paul 3
Barkley 10
Kobe 4
Hakeem 4
Duncan 5
Karl Malone 3
Shaq 8

Top 20 performances all time in a playoff game based upon PER:
Barkley 3
Jordan 3
Dirk 3
Kobe 2
James 2
Iverson 2

badfish with the goods yo!

[DAF86]

This isn't Dirk's first good playoff performance? :wow

You gotta give credit to Mavsfans, they have an unique talent to change the point that people arguing with them are trying to make.

[Ghazi]

..DAF.. just be happy for him in June.. ok? :)..

[DAF86]

I will.

[dirk4mvp]

:lmao why are you so defensive? That comment wasn't even directed at you.

[DAF86]

:lmao why are you so defensive? That comment wasn't even directed at you.

Because you have had directed comments like that to me, tbh. Besides I'm not defensive, just pointing out a talent you guys have.

[dirk4mvp]

lol defensive

[Pelicans78]

Why is Mikan suprising? He was the first dominant center in the league. Of course he would have outstanding numbers. He was a man among boys back when he played.

[TD 21]

You do know that Nowitzki has led the league in PER right? Something that Wade has never done. Wade has never been a better go to guy in the NBA, never.

I argued before the playoffs that Dirk should have been a First Team All-NBA, and Wade shouldn't even with a declining Kobe. The only reason why it didn't happen was because he got hurt, and the Mavs lost a lot of ground during the period. But the man was probably having his best shooting season up to that point, and was probably poised to take the MVP. So yes, this was also something that we believed before the playoffs.

I disagree with Howard, but I understand his argument because of how much of a difference he makes on defense. But I can't see much of an argument for Wade once you get past the fact that he is a guard and makes a lot of Sportcenter plays.

Yeah, I know. I did say it's not the be all end all. Robinson is fourth all-time (regular season). I'm a Spurs fan, but I'm not going to sit here and pretend he's a top ten all-time player, let alone top five (though I do believe he's underrated historically).

How has Wade never been a better go-to guy? They went head to head in the '06 Finals. Nowitzki had a superior supporting cast and Wade played out of his mind, while Nowitzki folded. Don't give me the "free throws" argument. How quickly Mavs fans forgot the Spurs series.

There's a case for Nowitzki over Durant for 1st team. Wade definitely should have beaten out Bryant for 1st team. Nowitzki was never going to take the MVP, though. He'd have figured more prominently into the discussion, because their record would have been better, but he still wouldn't have won it.

And you Mavs fans claim I'm biased? You act like Wade is Maggette. Wade is going to go down as probably a top three-five SG ever and a top twenty player.

[Pelicans78]

Yeah, I know. I did say it's not the be all end all. Robinson is fourth all-time (regular season). I'm a Spurs fan, but I'm not going to sit here and pretend he's a top ten all-time player, let alone top five (though I do believe he's underrated historically).

How has Wade never been a better go-to guy? They went head to head in the '06 Finals. Nowitzki had a superior supporting cast and Wade played out of his mind, while Nowitzki folded. Don't give me the "free throws" argument. How quickly Mavs fans forgot the Spurs series.

There's a case for Nowitzki over Durant for 1st team. Wade definitely should have beaten out Bryant for 1st team. Nowitzki was never going to take the MVP, though. He'd have figured more prominently into the discussion, because their record would have been better, but he still wouldn't have won it.

And you Mavs fans claim I'm biased? You act like Wade is Maggette. Wade is going to go down as probably a top three-five SG ever and a top twenty player.

You really think Dirk had a better supporting cast? You must not have paid attention to how good the Heat were in the playoffs.

Shaq, Zo, Haslem, Posey, Williams, Payton, Walker? Guys who may have been past their primes but were very good players in the league.

[TD 21]

You really think Dirk had a better supporting cast? You must not have paid attention to how good the Heat were in the playoffs.

Shaq, Zo, Haslem, Posey, Williams, Payton, Walker? Guys who may have been past their primes but were very good players in the league.

He clearly did, which is why the Mavs were favored. Wade had to create and/or finish virtually everything for the Heat offensively. O'Neal, who was already no longer at his peak, was beginning his decline from elite player status that season.

As for the rest, who cares about what they were? This is the same argument some use to downplay Duncan's incredible '03 run. You've got to look past the collection of names and consider where they were in their respective careers at the time.

[mystargtr34]

Mikan James and shaq in those spots are laughable ...
But dirk doesnt surprise me, he has been amazingly consistent playoff performer. But PER means little ...

Why would Shaq and LeBron in those positions be laughable? These two have had some of those most dominant playoff performances in NBA history.. Shaq more so.

[Nathan89]

Yeah, I know. I did say it's not the be all end all. Robinson is fourth all-time (regular season). I'm a Spurs fan, but I'm not going to sit here and pretend he's a top ten all-time player, let alone top five (though I do believe he's underrated historically).

How has Wade never been a better go-to guy? They went head to head in the '06 Finals. Nowitzki had a superior supporting cast and Wade played out of his mind, while Nowitzki folded. Don't give me the "free throws" argument. How quickly Mavs fans forgot the Spurs series.

There's a case for Nowitzki over Durant for 1st team. Wade definitely should have beaten out Bryant for 1st team. Nowitzki was never going to take the MVP, though. He'd have figured more prominently into the discussion, because their record would have been better, but he still wouldn't have won it.

And you Mavs fans claim I'm biased? You act like Wade is Maggette. Wade is going to go down as probably a top three-five SG ever and a top twenty player.

When you say this it sounds like the "free throws" argument isn't acceptable because the Spurs overcame in the Mavs vs Spurs series. You probably thought we were the better team and would have won the series without the bullshit ft disparity. Which leads to the understanding that it's hard for a team even the better team to win if bullshit calls are made.

Whether or not the ft argument is valid is a different story.

[Ginobili2Duncan]

Nowitzki is having an incredible playoff run. However part of the reason for this success as opposed to previous years is the decline of the other three once in a generation superstars of this era. Duncan,Bryant and O'Neal have much more mileage on them due to all of the deep playoff runs while playing more physically demanding minutes. No disrespect to Dirk, but this is clearly a transitional year in the NBA and he has taken advantage.

[TD 21]

When you say this it sounds like the "free throws" argument isn't acceptable because the Spurs overcame in the Mavs vs Spurs series. You probably thought we were the better team and would have won the series without the bullshit ft disparity. Which leads to the understanding that it's hard for a team even the better team to win if bullshit calls are made.

Whether or not the ft argument is valid is a different story.

I never saw the '06 Finals as being nearly as poorly officiated as many thought, though. The '06 Mavs-Spurs series, after the '02 Lakers-Kings series, I might rate that as the second worst officiated series I've ever seen.

Are you sure you're a Spurs fan? Because you come off as being about as big a Mavs/Nowitzki fan as there is. Constantly coming to their defense and being overly sensitive.

[Ginobili2Duncan]

Some people really underrated Howard in this thread.

And Nowtizki's teams have been right near the top in payroll for the majority of the decade. So I don't buy this notion that he had a mediocre supporting cast some people in this thread have tried to make.

[endrity]

Nowitzki is having an incredible playoff run. However part of the reason for this success as opposed to previous years is the decline of the other three once in a generation superstars of this era. Duncan,Bryant and O'Neal have much more mileage on them due to all of the deep playoff runs while playing more physically demanding minutes. No disrespect to Dirk, but this is clearly a transitional year in the NBA and he has taken advantage.

I guess 06 was also a transitional year? It's not like Dirk has surpassed Duncan for quite some time now, or that he just swept the two time reigning champs with the same starting 5..... oh wait.

And mileage? Please, Dirk has played every summer for Germany, and hasn't had his minutes managed like Duncan has. The only reason this run is happening is because the rest of the team is stepping up, but as for Dirk this is business as usual for him.


I never saw the '06 Finals as being nearly as poorly officiated as many thought, though. The '06 Mavs-Spurs series, after the '02 Lakers-Kings series, I might rate that as the second worst officiated series I've ever seen.

Are you sure you're a Spurs fan? Because you come off as being about as big a Mavs/Nowitzki fan as there is. Constantly coming to their defense and being overly sensitive.

I wonder which player shot more free throws in that series. I also wonder which player shot more free throws than the entire opposing team in Game 7. Hint: Wasn't Dirk.

Plus, lol at you comparing the finals to the Spurs-Mavs series. People from T-Mac to Phil Jackson, Rasheed Wallace to Nate McMillan, journalists like Henry Abbot and Bill Simmons have mentioned and written extensively about what happened in that series. They are not Mav fans, and with the exception of then-Piston Sheed, had no reason to hate on Wade. Yet they declared the series to be officiated in a very bias way. TMac said he thought he was watching a fix. There are videos on Youtube of the calls Wade got that are ridiculous.

There isn't a thing like that for the whole Spurs-Mavs series. You have one legit complain, and it's the call Dirk got at the end of either game 3 or 4. But if you insist on defending Dirk with smaller guys like the Spurs did, then you'll see them try to reach constantly just like they did in the OKC series. Those are fouls, just like hitting the elbow of shooters are fouls.

And before you say anything about weak fouls, look at the rip move which Duncan perfected before Durant. He got the whole Mavs frontline in trouble with that bullshit.

Don't you ever dare compare the Spurs-Mavs series to the Finals. They are as apple and oranges as they come.


Some people really underrated Howard in this thread.

And Nowtizki's teams have been right near the top in payroll for the majority of the decade. So I don't buy this notion that he had a mediocre supporting cast some people in this thread have tried to make.

I haven't underrated Howard. I said that he is the one guy that I would have no problem seeing listed behind LBJ.

But the payroll argument is bullshit. The Knicks and Blazers led the league in that for most of the decade, and see where it got them. We already had that debate with TD21, but most of that payroll is due to stupid contracts the Mavs gave to their own players from Raef LaFrentz to Brendan Haywood.

[Nathan89]

And before you say anything about weak fouls, look at the rip move which Duncan perfected before Durant. He got the whole Mavs frontline in trouble with that bullshit.



I really don't like this comparison of rip moves. Durant swings his arms out to the side in a motion that isn't even close to a shooting motion and that just is not the case with Duncan's rip move. If Duncan's defender move his arm he can easily go up for a high percentage shot, for Durant he either has to readjust or put up a low percentage shot.

[Sean Cagney]

I never saw the '06 Finals as being nearly as poorly officiated as many thought, though. The '06 Mavs-Spurs series, after the '02 Lakers-Kings series, I might rate that as the second worst officiated series I've ever seen.

Are you sure you're a Spurs fan? Because you come off as being about as big a Mavs/Nowitzki fan as there is. Constantly coming to their defense and being overly sensitive.

Charles and them after a game in 06 playoffs with the Spurs losing said flat out NBA REFS SUCK! They cost the Spurs that game no doubt and other calls, how convinient it is to forget that series for some, but it was horrible officiated in spots.


Finley gets a tech taken away and they lose in OT, Pop says that means we win by a point right? Dirk steps on Tims foot and Tim fouls out :rollin:rollin, that shit was just a flat out circus that year all around by refs. Dallas fans remember the Miami Series, I remember that one too.

[dirk4mvp]

lmao at TD 21 downplaying Shaq. He was a year removed from a 2nd place MVP finish and averaged 20 and 9 in 2006. What a dumbass.

[endrity]

I really don't like this comparison of rip moves. Durant swings his arms out to the side in a motion that isn't even close to a shooting motion and that just is not the case with Duncan's rip move. If Duncan's defender move his arm he can easily go up for a high percentage shot, for Durant he either has to readjust or put up a low percentage shot.

It might not be stylistically the same, and with Duncan playing closer to the basket it means little adjust in being able to score, but it's a cheap way to get fouls. And he did throughout the 06 series.

Anyway, let's get back to celebrating Dirk's greatness :king

[Ace]

lmao at TD 21 downplaying Shaq. He was a year removed from a 2nd place MVP finish and averaged 20 and 9 in 2006. What a dumbass.

About as dumb as saying Wade has never been a go to guy tbh...

[Josepatches_]

This is very subjective but if Orlando is called and asked to trade Dirk for Dwight (unless they could NOt re-sign him) they laugh and say no. Chicago says no for rose and Miami would not trade Wade or Lebron.

Not sure about Orlando because Howard could go next year.

Definitely Chicago or Miami wouldn't trade Rose,LeBron or Wade for Dirk.It's not even close.

[Axe Murderer]

The '06 Mavs-Spurs series, after the '02 Lakers-Kings series, I might rate that as the second worst officiated series I've ever seen.


crofl

who out there didn't see DET one coming!

[Ace]

Not sure about Orlando because Howard could go next year.

Definitely Chicago or Miami wouldn't trade Rose,LeBron or Wade for Dirk.It's not even close.

Given Dirk's age that not a good comparison.

[TD 21]

I guess 06 was also a transitional year? It's not like Dirk has surpassed Duncan for quite some time now, or that he just swept the two time reigning champs with the same starting 5..... oh wait.

And mileage? Please, Dirk has played every summer for Germany, and hasn't had his minutes managed like Duncan has. The only reason this run is happening is because the rest of the team is stepping up, but as for Dirk this is business as usual for him.


Duncan stepped into the league and was immediately tasked with playing 38 mpg and doing virtually everything. He also, from his second season on, was in the second round or further until '09. He didn't get eased in, like Bryant or Nowitzki and he's never played an easy game. Like all truly great big men, he played a physically demanding game. Unfortunately, his franchise took his greatness for granted, wore him to a nub and as such, he's got little spring left in his knees. And once that goes, for a basketball player, they're never the same, no matter how skilled they are.


I wonder which player shot more free throws in that series. I also wonder which player shot more free throws than the entire opposing team in Game 7. Hint: Wasn't Dirk.

Plus, lol at you comparing the finals to the Spurs-Mavs series. People from T-Mac to Phil Jackson, Rasheed Wallace to Nate McMillan, journalists like Henry Abbot and Bill Simmons have mentioned and written extensively about what happened in that series. They are not Mav fans, and with the exception of then-Piston Sheed, had no reason to hate on Wade. Yet they declared the series to be officiated in a very bias way. TMac said he thought he was watching a fix. There are videos on Youtube of the calls Wade got that are ridiculous.

There isn't a thing like that for the whole Spurs-Mavs series. You have one legit complain, and it's the call Dirk got at the end of either game 3 or 4. But if you insist on defending Dirk with smaller guys like the Spurs did, then you'll see them try to reach constantly just like they did in the OKC series. Those are fouls, just like hitting the elbow of shooters are fouls.

And before you say anything about weak fouls, look at the rip move which Duncan perfected before Durant. He got the whole Mavs frontline in trouble with that bullshit.

Don't you ever dare compare the Spurs-Mavs series to the Finals. They are as apple and oranges as they come. Generally, dominate big men shoot a ton of free throws; jump shooters don't. Remember this disgrace of a game? http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200605130DAL.html

I don't give a shit what popular opinion was. I'm telling you, as a guy who rarely uses officiating as a primary reason for a team's demise, that '06 series was a travesty. They were clearly trying to keep the Spurs out of the Finals that season and no one can convince me otherwise. Then the Spurs, to many's surprise, made the Finals the following season and what happened after that? Conveniently a series of "trades" that swung the balance of power in the league and essentially eliminated the Spurs from being a viable contender for the remainder of Duncan's and Ginobili's primes.


I haven't underrated Howard. I said that he is the one guy that I would have no problem seeing listed behind LBJ.

But the payroll argument is bullshit. The Knicks and Blazers led the league in that for most of the decade, and see where it got them. We already had that debate with TD21, but most of that payroll is due to stupid contracts the Mavs gave to their own players from Raef LaFrentz to Brendan Haywood.Stop being overly biased. Wade is an all-time great in the making. If you want to be biased and put Nowitzki ahead of him, fine, but don't go overboard and act like it's not close.

The payroll argument is excellent. It guarantees nothing, but it sure helps. Look at the top payrolls and you'll notice a trend.

dirk4mvp, how am I downplaying O'Neal? He was clearly on the downside that season. I love how you build him up to suit your argument, yet you pukes act like Duncan has been in decline for years, because he was averaging 19/11 in '08 and '09.

You guys are just mad that Wade, a truly great player, destroyed the Mavs, who had a superior team, but were lead by a career loser. Get over it.

[Ghazi]

:lol TD 21
:lol mad
:lol a "career loser" carrying a cast of "overrated" players to the Finals

[Nathan89]

Howard:lmao



Could Howard do what Dirk is doing?

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Go Mavshttp://www.deltalf.com/forum/images/smilies/nice_smilies/clap2.gif