If Dirk wins the title this year, he will be better than Duncan

[Muse]

Duncan was never the best player on Championship teams, if Dirk wins the title this year he will move ahead of Duncan.

What Dirk is doing right now is legendary, he's taking over games, shooting insane percentages and right now he just cannot be stopped. He's also doing it with a team full of over the hill veterans. :lobt2:

[lefty]

:lmao

[Giuseppe]

:lmao

Lefty is right. There are consequences to meandering thru a lengthy career as Dirk has done. Now when he's on the precipice of breaking his ring cherry his people look back in denial born of regret.

[Sigz]

Who was the best player on the Spurs in 2003? Steve Kerr? LOL

[Frenzy]

They see me trolling...they hating..

[Proxy]

This is the kind of bullshit that makes spursfan go for Miami

[Blake]

Duncan was never the best player on Championship teams

grey named spur fan > grey named troll

[mystargtr34]

:lol gnmf

[frodo]

dirk ain't never overtakin duncan in terms of career imho. dirk may possibly win a ring this year perhaps but i doubt he could win another 3 the following years b4 he retires. dirk being roughly the same age as duncan isn't likely to maintain such good form for many years to come. however speakin of current versions dirk is twice the player duncan is w/o no doubt. dirk has no legit supporting cast outside of TC and kidd tbh, other nigs such as JET JJB etc... are no better then previous seasons. the german allah just be too good dis season tbh

[BlackSwordsMan]

Tired old shit bag : 4
One left in the tank shitbag: 0

[dbreiden83080]

Duncan was never the best player on Championship teams, if Dirk wins the title this year he will move ahead of Duncan.

What Dirk is doing right now is legendary, he's taking over games, shooting insane percentages and right now he just cannot be stopped. He's also doing it with a team full of over the hill veterans. :lobt2:

Watch 2003 Duncan

Seriously.. Dirk is doing what Duncan already did and still not as well..

[i MAke GOod POlls]

You could argue that Dirk has played better these playoffs then Duncan did in any of his, but overall Dirk will never have a chance at overcoming Duncan's legacy.

And this only applies if Dirks rings too

[100%duncan]

:lmao grey named mavs troll, obvious troll is obvious

[frodo]

duncan was THAT nigga on his team 3 of their 4 champion years imho. TL was da finals mvp in 07 IIRC dat was the only championship year when duncan wasn't da best of his team imho

[dbreiden83080]

duncan was THAT nigga on his team 3 of their 4 champion years imho. TL was da finals mvp in 07 IIRC dat was the only championship year when duncan wasn't da best of his team imho

Duncan was far and away the best player of the 07 team. Tony shined in a sweep of the cavs. The best teams the Spurs beat were all in the west. Suns series Duncan was awesome..

[Sportstudi]

Duncan was never the best player on Championship teams, if Dirk wins the title this year he will move ahead of Duncan.

What Dirk is doing right now is legendary, he's taking over games, shooting insane percentages and right now he just cannot be stopped. He's also doing it with a team full of over the hill veterans. :lobt2:

:lmao:lmao:lmao

I've never heard such a bullshit before. Yes, I would be damn happy if Dirk finally rings (he has been insane during the playoffs), but I will NOT be that crazy to put him above either Tim Duncan or Larry Bird. Dirk needs a couple of rings more to knock at the door of the top 10 of all time. As much as I would like him to be there, there's still much to do.

[Ghazi]

You could argue that Dirk has played better these playoffs then Duncan did in any of his, but overall Dirk will never have a chance at overcoming Duncan's legacy.

And this only applies if Dirks rings too

Nobody on the Mavs is as good as Parker/Ginobili... besides Dirk of course.

Dirk winning the title this year would be a greater accomplishment than anything Duncan's ever done.... beating fucking Lebron/Whistle (two top 3 players) and Bosh (top 25-30) in the Finals?.. :wow

[Ghazi]

Damn shame (if we lose) that it took the Mavs this long for his teammates to step up... even without Chandler, we could've been in this position last year if Marion/Terry/Kidd/Barea played like they have during this playoff run..

[100%duncan]

Nobody on the Mavs is as good as Parker/Ginobili... besides Dirk of course.

Dirk winning the title this year would be a greater accomplishment than anything Duncan's ever done.... beating fucking Lebron/Whistle (two top 3 players) and Bosh (top 25-30) in the Finals?.. :wow
1999 Duncan as a Sophomore with a peaking DRob beat Minesota, swept LA, forgot the other one, Knicks

2003 Duncan (no other superstar) beat the suns,a laker team hunting for a 3peat, your MAVS, NJ

2005 Duncan, Ginobili (considered as a superstar that time) beat Denver, Seattle, a suns team that had the mvp and coy and detroit who dominated LA the year before

2007 Duncan,Ginobili,Parker beat denver, suns, utah, cavs (this is the easiest path out of the 4)

4 RINGS 3 finals mvp

Dirk? How many man? Choked against Heat in '06? Look I want Dirk to win this year but bullshit fans like you makes it a hard choice

[TD 21]

Nobody on the Mavs is as good as Parker/Ginobili... besides Dirk of course.

Dirk winning the title this year would be a greater accomplishment than anything Duncan's ever done.... beating fucking Lebron/Whistle (two top 3 players) and Bosh (top 25-30) in the Finals?.. :wow

You're a joke. Apparently you forgot '03, when Duncan, with no true second star AND no bloated payroll (it was supposed to be a re-building year), destroyed the three-time defending champs, who had the second and third best players in the league. Duncan's domination didn't start and end with his jump shot, either. He did it all. It remains, to this day, the greatest all around playoff run I've witnessed.

And no, the Mavs couldn't have done this last year. If they could have, they would have. They didn't have Chandler and they didn't have nearly their entire rotation playing as well as they can possibly play. There's a reason a lot of these guys generally don't play as well as they're playing now.

[100%duncan]

Oh and 2 consecutive NBA MVP, ghazi was probably choking from my facts so he decided to run to la la land

[Ghazi]

TD 21... just be happy for him (Dirk) in June.. ok? :)..

[Fpoonsie]

1999 Duncan as a Sophomore with a peaking DRob beat Minesota, swept LA, forgot the other one, Knicks


Uhhhh...

http://www.nba.com/media/playoffs2004/elliott_99_450.jpg

[i MAke GOod POlls]

Nobody on the Mavs is as good as Parker/Ginobili... besides Dirk of course.

Dirk winning the title this year would be a greater accomplishment than anything Duncan's ever done.... beating fucking Lebron/Whistle (two top 3 players) and Bosh (top 25-30) in the Finals?.. :wow

huh?

I'm one of the biggest Dirk lovers you'll find on this site. I already said that if he rings, you could make a case that this year is more impressive than any single playoff run Duncan has ever had.

But there is no way Dirk will ever approach Duncan's legacy overall. Sorry, case closed

[Ghazi]

I didn't say he'd approach Duncan's legacy..

[4>0rings]

At least give a half ass effort when you try to troll.

:lmao

[i MAke GOod POlls]

I didn't say he'd approach Duncan's legacy..

i was referring mainly to the OP

If Dirk plays like he has the past 3 rounds and they win the title, i'll gladly admit that his 11 postseason was better than any of Duncan's. :)

[baseline bum]

Nobody on the Mavs is as good as Parker/Ginobili... besides Dirk of course.

Dirk winning the title this year would be a greater accomplishment than anything Duncan's ever done.... beating fucking Lebron/Whistle (two top 3 players) and Bosh (top 25-30) in the Finals?.. :wow

You don't remember Duncan beating two top 3 players coming off a three-peat in 03? It'll go down as a legendary performance for sure if Nowitzki is able to take Miami out though, and I think Dallas has a great shot to do it.

[DMC]

You don't remember Duncan beating two top 3 players coming off a three-peat in 03? It'll go down as a legendary performance for sure if Nowitzki is able to take Miami out though, and I think Dallas has a great shot to do it.
It will be a good win for Dirk, but it's not like Miami has established itself as a fortress in the NBA. They haven't won shit. It's all speculation at this point whereas the Lakers were on their way to their 4th. If someone beats the Heat while they have a 3peat behind them, that could mean a great deal, or even if they have a single championship.

[Axe Murderer]

If someone beats the Heat while they have a 3peat behind them, that could mean a great deal, or even if they have a single championship.

:rollin

Didn't Dallas just sweep a team off a back to back championship?

Oh wait :cry they weren't the same team :cry Lakers OBVIOUSLY weren't contenders this season :cry

[xellos88330]

Nobody on the Mavs is as good as Parker/Ginobili... besides Dirk of course.

Dirk winning the title this year would be a greater accomplishment than anything Duncan's ever done.... beating fucking Lebron/Whistle (two top 3 players) and Bosh (top 25-30) in the Finals?.. :wow

'05 Duncan beat the Pistons. That was a pretty demanding task if you ask me. I mean seriously. That Pistons team was pretty freaking good. I would take an '05 Rip Hamilton, Chauncey Billups, Rasheed Wallace, Ben Wallace, Tayshaun Prince, over LeBron, Wade, and Bosh any day. That was a pretty nasty starting 5.

I would much rather play against a 3 man circus than a full starting squad of solid team players fresh off of a championship. I think 4 of them were all stars the next year or year before or something like that. Oh yea, the Pistons were also coached by Larry Brown too btw.

[Axe Murderer]

I would much rather play against a 3 man circus than a full starting squad of solid team players fresh off of a championship.

Dirk beat a team fresh off of back to back championships

[endrity]

Lol at Mavs fans already trolling the shit out Spurfan. At least hold on to see if we can really win it, Mavs are not the favourites here.

[ClippersDynasty]

It's been a bad time for Spurfan after they went through the easiest road ever to win a title in 07. Lakers back to back rings and now the Mavs on the verge of finally getting one. Oh yeah, and getting swept by the Suns and losing to an eight seed :lol

[xellos88330]

Dirk beat a team fresh off of back to back championships

So are you saying that the Lakers this year were better than the '05 Pistons?

[xellos88330]

It's been a bad time for Spurfan after they went through the easiest road ever to win a title in 07. Lakers back to back rings and now the Mavs on the verge of finally getting one. Oh yeah, and getting swept by the Suns and losing to an eight seed :lol

Shouldn't you be playing Rage? I hear Griffin is supposed to be in it.

[BRHornet45]

son

[Venti Quattro]

Lol at Mavs fans already trolling the shit out Spurfan. At least hold on to see if we can really win it, Mavs are not the favourites here.

The perfect way to cap off the season is if the Mavs win the ring.

[djohn2oo8]

Lol at Mavs fans already trolling the shit out Spurfan. At least hold on to see if we can really win it, Mavs are not the favourites here.

The Mavs are winning this thing. They have the more complete team. Also, think about the lifetime trollage Mavfans will bestow upon Spurfans

[Sean Cagney]

The Mavs are winning this thing. They have the more complete team. Also, think about the lifetime trollage Mavfans will bestow upon Spurfans

Lifelong trolling for one ring? They can do that, but it's still not near 4 damn rings, so they can say all they want to, it doesn't matter in the long run although it would be great for their franchise.

[Sean Cagney]

It's been a bad time for Spurfan after they went through the easiest road ever to win a title in 07. Lakers back to back rings and now the Mavs on the verge of finally getting one. Oh yeah, and getting swept by the Suns and losing to an eight seed :lol

Bro you are a clippers fan, nothing worse than that there in history. :lol:lol:lmao
Dirk beat a team fresh off of back to back championships

Spurs beat a team off a three peat! Shaq and Kobe in their primes. Shaq in 03 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pau now! Good lord that team was a threat to win 4 in a row or maybe 5 if they beat SA in 03, that team was not a pushover.

[djohn2oo8]

Dirk has that look in his eye, and he is already unguardable as it is. Mavs in 5

[baseline bum]

Lifelong trolling for one ring? They can do that, but it's still not near 4 damn rings, so they can say all they want to, it doesn't matter in the long run although it would be great for their franchise.

The "4 Rings, Faggot" era is over. It was a great run, but Spurs fan risks becoming Rocket Fan Part 2 if the ring smack isn't soon retired.

[djohn2oo8]

The "4 Rings, Faggot" era is over. It was a great run, but Spurs fan risks becoming Rocket Fan Part 2 if the ring smack isn't soon retired.

This

[ezau]

Duncan 4

Dirk 0

and even if Dirk wins this year:

Duncan 4

Dirk 1

While we're at it:

Manu: 3

Dirk: 0

:lol:lol

[joshdaboss]

You could argue that Dirk has played better these playoffs then Duncan did in any of his, but overall Dirk will never have a chance at overcoming Duncan's legacy.

And this only applies if Dirks rings too

You must be fucking trolling to believe this. Nothing Tim Duncan did in 2003 has been matched since the days of Jordan.

[100%duncan]

I didn't say he'd approach Duncan's legacy..

are you owned or what? :lol

[Sean Cagney]

This

So the four rings mean nothing now in an argument over all time rankings? You two please STFU and see what I was saying there! It is not to down Dirk but to say 4 rings he has and one ring will not push him over the TOP OF TIM ALL TIMES! That is what I am getting at there.
You must be fucking trolling to believe this. Nothing Tim Duncan did in 2003 has been matched since the days of Jordan.

THAT RUN in 03 is legendary! Heads stop looking at Dirks 28 ppg and realize Tim put up 25 and 15 and however many blocks and assists a game! Come on now stop it, just stop it!

[Spurtacus]

This is the kind of bullshit that makes spursfan go for Miami

[Leetonidas]

Damn I miss 2003 Timmy. You couldn't even make troll threads about him because he was so good. :depressed

[joshdaboss]

THAT RUN in 03 is legendary! Heads stop looking at Dirks 28 ppg and realize Tim put up 25 and 15 and however many blocks and assists a game! Come on now stop it, just stop it!

When you look at the numbers of his teammates, it becomes absurd that they won a ring that season. It's the only time I can remember that literally 1 player put an entire team on his back and won them a championship.

[Nathan Explosion]

When you look at the numbers of his teammates, it becomes absurd that they won a ring that season. It's the only time I can remember that literally 1 player put an entire team on his back and won them a championship.

Just look at the clinching game of the Finals to see how dominant Tim was. It's one of the greatest Finals performances ever.

But, as a Spurs fan, I have to be fair. Wade carried the Heat to a title in 2006. He was far and away their best player.

As for the Dirk talk, I'll bite. Dirk hasn't approaced anything alone the lines of 22 pts, 20 reb, 10 asst and 8 blks. When Dirk can post a complete stat line like that in a clinching game, then we'll talk.

Also, in 2005, Duncan pretty much outscored and outrebounded both Sheed and Ben COMBINED in the Spurs 4 wins. That's pretty fucking impressive.

So, again, when Dirk plays like Duncan in 2003 and 2005, wins 4 rings and 3 Finals MVPs, he can enter the discussion with Duncan.

[joshdaboss]

But, as a Spurs fan, I have to be fair. Wade carried the Heat to a title in 2006. He was far and away their best player.


Shaq was on his team. That wasn't a washed-up LeBron James Shaq, either.

[Nathan Explosion]

Shaq was on his team. That wasn't a washed-up LeBron James Shaq, either.

But he wasn't great either. He averaged double figures, but Wade was far and away better. Hell, Wade score 36 in Game 6 with Shaq chipping in a mind blowing 9 points.

[dirk4mvp]

You'd think it'd be easier for a perimeter player to score with the threat of a HOF center averaging 20 and 9 down low.

[MiamiHeatNumba1]

Not using this as an excuse, but I think people forget about the injuries to Chris Webber in 2003 and then the injury to Dirk Nowitzki. If Webber doesn't go down Mavs don't advance, and I don't think a healthy Kings or Mavs team would have lost in 7 to that Spurs team.

It is what it is though. Duncan is widely considered the greatest PF of all time, but there's a lot of arguments for and against that. It might be easier to talk about when it is all said and done though. Duncan is on his way out, and Dirk is still producing at some of the highest level so let these boys finish their careers then sort it out. Even then who knows what the up-and-coming power forwards will bring. It's not like Blake Griffin, Kevin Love, Gallinari, hell even Bosh if you want to go back a few years, etc. got drafted into a team with a David Robinson caliber player to help them shape their legacy from day one.

[DMC]

The ignant in this thread is astounding.

[jARS mEsH sEt]

'05 Duncan beat the Pistons. That was a pretty demanding task if you ask me. I mean seriously. That Pistons team was pretty freaking good. I would take an '05 Rip Hamilton, Chauncey Billups, Rasheed Wallace, Ben Wallace, Tayshaun Prince, over LeBron, Wade, and Bosh any day. That was a pretty nasty starting 5.

I would much rather play against a 3 man circus than a full starting squad of solid team players fresh off of a championship. I think 4 of them were all stars the next year or year before or something like that. Oh yea, the Pistons were also coached by Larry Brown too btw.

Ginobili clearly should have been named Finals MVP on '05.

I'm not saying Timmy wasn't essential to the win. But, he wasn't the MVP of the series against Detroit.

Hell, the vast majority of spurs fans were consistently giving "MVP chants" to Ginobili in that series -

EG8_HK_Jbow

Timmy's '99 and '03 Finals MVP were well deserved, however. '07 was rightly given to Tony Parker. '05 was wrongly taken away from Ginobili.

Timmy's 2010-2011 All Star spot was wrongly taken away from Tony Parker (if you had to choose two people from the spurs). Tony deserved it more than Timmy this year.

You have to consider context when assessing whether or not certain awards are actually warranted.

[joshdaboss]

Ginobili clearly should have been named Finals MVP on '05.

I'm not saying Timmy wasn't essential to the win. But, he wasn't the MVP of the series against Detroit.

Hell, the vast majority of spurs fans were consistently giving "MVP chants" to Ginobili in that series -

EG8_HK_Jbow

Timmy's '99 and '03 Finals MVP were well deserved, however. '07 was rightly given to Tony Parker. '05 was wrongly taken away from Ginobili.

Timmy's 2010-2011 All Star spot was wrongly taken away from Tony Parker (if you had to choose two people from the spurs). Tony deserved it more than Timmy this year.

You have to consider context when assessing whether or not certain awards are actually warranted.

You're insane. I'm surprised you aren't a Laker fan with an assessment like this. Ginobili may have scored more down the stretch, but nobody was more valuable to the team than Duncan -- scoring is NOT everything. Duncan dominates on both ends of the floor, not one.

edit: Also, the 2007 MVP going to Parker was a perfect example of what a joke it is how taken for granted Duncan is, he clearly deserved the award but the fact that Parker scored more got him votes. Let's just completely forget the fact Parker is a bigger defensive liability than Matt Bonner, ten fold.

[crc21209]

They see me trolling...they hating..

:lol :tu

[DMC]

What team in history has had 3 Finals MVPs on the same team? I cannot think of any that even had 2 (I haven't researched it, maybe Magic's Lakers or the old Celtics). That Ginobili was even considered for it is a testament to Tim Duncan. A great player makes his teammates better. Robinson was a great player, but I don't think anyone made his teammates better than Duncan made his.

[jARS mEsH sEt]

You could make the argument that Duncan and Ginobili benefited synergistically off of each other's scoring threats during that series.

Yes, Duncan was clearly the established "future hall of famer" scoring threat to start the series, but once Ginobili emerged as a threat both of them benefited.

[stxspurs]

Tim Duncan
1997-98 NBA Rookie of the Year
1998-99 NBA Finals MVP
1999-00 NBA All-Star Game MVP
2001-02 NBA MVP
2002-03 NBA Finals MVP
2002-03 NBA MVP
2004-05 NBA Finals MVP
4 time champion

Dirk Nowitzki
Most Valuable Player (2007)

yeah mav fans your right...dirk is better:lol:rollin:rolleyes:nope:jack:idiot:loser:s tfu:lmao:lmao

[Sean Cagney]

Not using this as an excuse, but I think people forget about the injuries to Chris Webber in 2003 and then the injury to Dirk Nowitzki. If Webber doesn't go down Mavs don't advance, and I don't think a healthy Kings or Mavs team would have lost in 7 to that Spurs team.

.

Bhwhwhahhahahahahahahahaahahah, okay bruh, stop it. Spurs beat LA that year, after that nothing was GONNA STOP THEM, just stop it.

Spurs 3-1 and matched up very WELL with the Kings that year! Dallas? OH my please, no frontline and won game one after 50 ft's, after that the Spurs were up basically after BLOWING game one 2-1 with Dirk in there, come on now man are you serious? ARE YOU SERIOUS? This argument is weak, nothing was gonna stop the Spurs that year. Tim was on a mission.

[Muse]

The 2003 Mavs would have probably beat the Spurs if Dirk hadn't gone down.

Dirk should have 2 rings and 2 finals MVP's if it wasn't for injuries or stern fixing the NBA finals

[Mal]

The 2003 Mavs would have probably beat the Spurs if Dirk hadn't gone down.

Dirk should have 2 rings and 2 finals MVP's if it wasn't for injuries or stern fixing the NBA finals

:lmao:lmao:lmao

[MiamiHeatNumba1]

Bhwhwhahhahahahahahahahaahahah, okay bruh, stop it. Spurs beat LA that year, after that nothing was GONNA STOP THEM, just stop it.

Spurs 3-1 and matched up very WELL with the Kings that year! Dallas? OH my please, no frontline and won game one after 50 ft's, after that the Spurs were up basically after BLOWING game one 2-1 with Dirk in there, come on now man are you serious? ARE YOU SERIOUS? This argument is weak, nothing was gonna stop the Spurs that year. Tim was on a mission.

:rolleyes

Spurs were 3-1 against the Kings that year, true, but the one Kings win was a blowout. Two of the three losses went down to the wire while the other was close, one game was without Webber, and the Spurs shot 10+ more FT's in each of the wins. Yes I 100% believe that they just would have rolled past Sacramento... oh wait...

Dallas shot 50 freebies in game one, okay, Spurs shot 48 that same game. Not really a huge differential there unless you want to discuss how Dallas got more to go in the bucket.

Since you opened up that can of worms how about we look at Game 2... Dallas shot 22 freebies... Spurs... 45? What? Oh and this Game 2 trend continues for the entire series.

Granted, I'm not here to make a case for Dallas so I'll just stop there. San Antonio won in 6, went 2-1 against Dirk and co. and 2-1 against Dirkless Mavs. Props to your team if you want props. Nobody knows what would have happened if Webber or Dirk would have stayed healthy anyway, but to say that it didn't practically give away the WCF trophy is just denial at its best.

[djohn2oo8]

Tim Duncan
1997-98 NBA Rookie of the Year
1998-99 NBA Finals MVP
1999-00 NBA All-Star Game MVP
2001-02 NBA MVP
2002-03 NBA Finals MVP
2002-03 NBA MVP
2004-05 NBA Finals MVP
4 time champion

Dirk Nowitzki
Most Valuable Player (2007)

yeah mav fans your right...dirk is better:lol:rollin:rolleyes:nope:jack:idiot:loser:s tfu:lmao:lmao

You got trolled BIG time

[baseline bum]

The 2003 Mavs would have probably beat the Spurs if Dirk hadn't gone down.

Dirk should have 2 rings and 2 finals MVP's if it wasn't for injuries or stern fixing the NBA finals

:rollin
There was no way Dallas was winning that series with 2003 Nowitzki guarding 2003 Duncan. Revisionist history at its finest.

[TampaDude]

THAT RUN in 03 is legendary! Heads stop looking at Dirks 28 ppg and realize Tim put up 25 and 15 and however many blocks and assists a game! Come on now stop it, just stop it!

^ this :toast

[dunkman]

No, Duncan had much better career so far.

[Nathan Explosion]

You're insane. I'm surprised you aren't a Laker fan with an assessment like this. Ginobili may have scored more down the stretch, but nobody was more valuable to the team than Duncan -- scoring is NOT everything. Duncan dominates on both ends of the floor, not one.

edit: Also, the 2007 MVP going to Parker was a perfect example of what a joke it is how taken for granted Duncan is, he clearly deserved the award but the fact that Parker scored more got him votes. Let's just completely forget the fact Parker is a bigger defensive liability than Matt Bonner, ten fold.

This. Again, Gino was scoring points, but Duncan was outscoring and outrebounding Ben and Sheed COMBINED. He was negating two of the 5 players leaving the Spurs to go 4 on 3 basically. When you're outproducing 2 NBA starters on a defending champion, you're pretty fucking good.

Plus, go look at the games again. Everyone remembers Gino's late game shots, but everyone forgets that Duncan was the most consistent player. He'd single handedly keep the Spurs in Game 5 and 7 until Gino took over in the 4th.

In 2007, it was Duncan's defense that set the tone for the entire series. In the first game in the first quarter Duncan blocks Lebron, Lebron recovers the ball and Duncan has to guard him 1 on 1 on the perimeter. Duncan digs in and forces Lebron to take a fallaway jumper with the shot clock running down. When I saw that, I thought, "Wow, Duncan is sending a message to both teams that the he's here to win this series, not just be happy to be there." As if the Spurs somehow forgot that.