Once Lebron a title this June, he will officially surpass Kobe

[ChrisRichards]

Among the All Time Greats.


Allow me to explain why. Lebron already has 2 regular season MVP's in the bag. Lebron has the better career averages across the board (PPG,RPG,APG,BPG,SPG FG,TS% and PER) both in the regular season and in the playoffs. At this point, Lebron has showed that he's the best damn defender in the league and obviously the better defender than Kobe at any point of Bryant's career. Kobe's biggest advantage is his scoring but Lebron has broke every "youngest" scoring record held by Kobe.


The only missing hardware is a championship ring and a Finals MVP and once the Heat wraps this series up in 5 maybe 6 games, Kobe doesn't have any case anymore.

People may argue that Kobe has 5 to Lebron's 1, but it's not about the total amount of rings tbh. Olajuwon has 2 but people don't have a problem ranking him ahead of Kobe, am I right? IMO it's all about how the player closed a series out and at this point, Kobe wasn't spectacular in the Finals during Shaq's era and while he definitely was the man in their last 2 title run, his numbers are pretty anemic in comparison to the other greats in the Top 1-11 category.


Lebron will have a chance to put up some historic numbers and I won't be surprised if he gives us one of the most dominating NBA Finals performance ever since Shaq ir perhaps Wade's performance in 2006.

[IronMexican]

Definitely will be if he wins a ring this year. Shouldn't even be a question. If Dirk rings, so will he, but it will be more up for debate, cause he isn't as glorified(no slight to LeBron)

[Giuseppe]

:rolleyes

At my lowest, when I'm down 13 in the third quarter of a Game 7|NBA Finals and haven't had Luva give me the dutch uncle treatment yet I wish it were as easy as C R says it is with his numerous strokes upon his keyboard.

But, it ain't.

[TE]

Great troll thread.

[ChrisRichards]

:rolleyes

At my lowest, when I'm down 13 in the third quarter of a Game 7|NBA Finals and haven't had Luva give me the dutch uncle treatment yet I wish it were as easy as C R says it is with his numerous strokes upon his keyboard.

But, it ain't.

You're absolutely one of the smartest guy in this board and quite frankly you are my favorite poster of all time and honestly one of the very few reason why I even come to ST.

But I disagree with you.


The proof will be in the pudding soon enough. The league has never seen a talent like Lebron even the greatest players of all time ( MJ,Pip and Bird) are quick to point out this kid will be the bestest evaaar. It's time to accept that opinion will be a fact.

[namlook]

No way does Lebron pass Kobe for career achievements with one ring. That's laughable.



IMO it's all about how the player closed a series out and at this point, Kobe wasn't spectacular in the Finals during Shaq's era

Shallow and misguided.

Those of us that know what really happened know that Kobe put up huge performances against the toughest teams the Lakers faced each year of the Lakers threepeat.

In Game 7 of the 2000 WCF against the Blazers Kobe was the MVP of that game with a tremendous all around performance 25/11/7 and guarding Pippen into a 3-10 shooting performance in what was the real NBA finals. Blazers > Pacers that year.

Kobe dominated a great Spurs team in the WCF in 2001 and was the MVP of that series in what was again the real NBA finals . Spurs > 76ers that year.

In 2002 the Lakers/Kings WCF was the real NBA finals. Kings > Nets that year. In game 7 Kobe put up 30/10/7 .

[Venti Quattro]

If we all say that Dirk will surpass Jim when he rings, we should also be fair to LeBron. He will surpass Kobe in the pantheon of greats if he rings this year.

[DPG21920]

Wow, Venti, so many stupid threads and comments.

[chunticakes]

cully FTMFW.

[ChrisRichards]

Thanks Venti & IronMex. I'm glad you guys use fair logic.


@ namlook, why the hell not? Kareem has more individual achievements and records than Magic, but people are too quick to rank Magic ahead of him.

[namlook]

Thanks Venti & IronMex. I'm glad you guys use fair logic.


@ namlook, why the hell not? Kareem has more individual achievements and records than Magic, but people are too quick to rank Magic ahead of him.

All time ranking is not about individual stats. It's about individual stats and team accomplishments combined.

People rank Magic over Kareem based on their Lakers careers. Any objective and knowledgeable person knows Kareem > Magic for career achievements. Magic was the greater Lakers player but Kareem had the greater career.

[HarlemHeat37]

Career-wise, obviously not, but if he wins Finals MVP and has a standout Finals, he'll have cemented a higher peak..longevity, rings and the media are Kobe's main arguments..

[ChrisRichards]

All time ranking is not about individual stats. It's about individual stats and team accomplishments combined. Magic has 5 rings and is #1 in NBA history in assist per game.

Lebron statistically is better than Kobe. Please refute that.

Lebron has more meaningful individual accolades and will have some more than Kobe. Please refute that.

Lebron is a one of a kind of talent. He's a first in his generation just like Magic & Larry were, like Shaq was son on and so forth. Kobe's a great competitor but his skills are dime a dozen.


Now, I agree with you that team accomplishment must be taken into consideration so that's why I said if Lebron rings once, this debate is over IMO. The number or amount of rings will have no effect here because Kobe was not even great in 3 of those 5 championships (in the Finals).


If Lebron bombs in this series, then yes, I'll take this back. but if Lebron gives us one of those 2009 NBA Playoff performance where he had a 37.1 PER then its not even a question anymore.

[jjktkk]

Wow, Venti, so many stupid threads and comments.

+1. Kinda shocked Venti's gone off the deep end since the skunker.

[namlook]

Lebron statistically is better than Kobe. Please refute that.

Wilt crapped on everyone with stats.

All time ranking is about individual accomplishments (individual stats, NBA records, number of all stars games, number of all-nba teams, number of all-defensive teams, MVPs etc.) AND how many times you win it all. Those two things go hand in hand.


Kobe's a great competitor but his skills are dime a dozen.


Complete bullshit. That's just ignorant. To put your comment in perspective, Phil Jackson has said Kobe is the more skilled player compared to Jordan.

[Amaso]

Career-wise, obviously not, but if he wins Finals MVP and has a standout Finals, he'll have cemented a higher peak..longevity, rings and the media are Kobe's main arguments..

Kobe's peak was spent playing alongside Smush Parker, Luke Walton, Kwame Brown, and Brian Cook

[Nathan89]

In 2002 the Lakers/Kings WCF was the real NBA finals. Kings > Nets that year. In game 7 Kobe put up 30/10/7 .

:lmao Lakerfan bringing up the Kings series. IMHO not a great series to bring up because the Lakers needed help from the refs to win the series and they had two "top 10" players all-time on the team.

[LnGrrrR]

No, he won't.

/thread

[Jelloisjigglin]

No, he won't.

/thread

[Ghazi]

But isn't LeBron the biggest choker post-Jordan?

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152593

:lol ChrisRichards
:lol Cavs/Heat fan
:lol Mavs in 5

[Koolaid_Man]

Among the All Time Greats.


Allow me to explain why. Lebron already has 2 regular season MVP's in the bag. Lebron has the better career averages across the board (PPG,RPG,APG,BPG,SPG FG,TS% and PER) both in the regular season and in the playoffs. At this point, Lebron has showed that he's the best damn defender in the league and obviously the better defender than Kobe at any point of Bryant's career. Kobe's biggest advantage is his scoring but Lebron has broke every "youngest" scoring record held by Kobe.


The only missing hardware is a championship ring and a Finals MVP and once the Heat wraps this series up in 5 maybe 6 games, Kobe doesn't have any case anymore.

People may argue that Kobe has 5 to Lebron's 1, but it's not about the total amount of rings tbh. Olajuwon has 2 but people don't have a problem ranking him ahead of Kobe, am I right? IMO it's all about how the player closed a series out and at this point, Kobe wasn't spectacular in the Finals during Shaq's era and while he definitely was the man in their last 2 title run, his numbers are pretty anemic in comparison to the other greats in the Top 1-11 category.


Lebron will have a chance to put up some historic numbers and I won't be surprised if he gives us one of the most dominating NBA Finals performance ever since Shaq ir perhaps Wade's performance in 2006.

Nice ass shake CR:

pIgZ7gMze7A

[ChrisRichards]

But isn't LeBron the biggest choker post-Jordan?

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152593

:lol ChrisRichards
:lol Cavs/Heat fan
:lol Mavs in 5
Why you keep bringing that up? I don't think he choked, he was injured. That's a different thing.

[Ghazi]

Why you keep bringing that up? I don't think he choked, he was injured. That's a different thing.
:rollin

[dunkman]

LeBron was always better than Kobe.

[redzero]

Once Lebron a title this June, he will officially surpass Kobe

A WHOLE title?

[baseline bum]

James would need 3 rings and to catch a case to be in the discussion.

[LkrFan]

No, he won't.

/thread

...and this from a Boston Celtic fan. Not some faggoty front running Heat fan since 2006. :tu

[Bill_Brasky]

Lebron could win 10 titles but if none of them are repeats he will never be better than Kobe in the eyes of lakerfan.

[Killakobe81]

1<5 but he is well on his way ...havent read thread yet ... but im sure it's full of trash on both sides. Lebron will have to at least get 3 or 4 to make OP's point valid, tbh.

[Killakobe81]

But5 i have no problem with Lebron>Kobe if and when that time comes ...all greats should be surpassed even ... even MJ. Mj should be Lebron's goal not, Kobe ...

[TE]

On a serious note, Lebron needs to win a couple more (approx. 3-4 total) by being the main guy in that starting five.

[LkrFan]

Lebron could win 10 titles but if none of them are repeats he will never be better than Kobe in the eyes of lakerfan.

:rolleyes

[Amaso]

Kobe won 2 titles without a superstar(or hall-of-famer) next to him, and has 5 total rings. Lebron is currently at 0 titles. If he wins any titles, it will be with a hall-of-fame superstar(Wade), and another all-star player in Bosh. Lebron's current supporting cast and future supporting casts will be as good/if not better than what Kobe ever had. It would take at minimum 3 rings to even put him in the same conversation as Kobe.

[Amaso]

dirk and lebron >> kobe

This post-season, absolutely. This year, probably. Lebron for sure is a better player at this point in their careers. He is in his prime playing along two all-stars and a solid supporting cast now, while Kobe's prime ended about 3 years ago. It won't surprise me to see the Heat and Lebron fall short to the Mavs; Dirk is shooting lights out at this point, it doesn't seem like he ever misses.

[HarlemHeat37]

Pau Gasol is virtually a lock for the HOF..just because Laker fan doesn't like to believe so, it doesn't mean it isn't true:lol..out of all the NBA titles in history, only one player had superior advanced metrics than the "best player" on the team, during multiple title runs, and that was Gasol..others have done it once(such as Manu in 2005), but Gasol actually did it for both titles..

Kobe has never made the playoffs without having a team with one of the highest payrolls in the NBA..he has never won a title without having the best frontcourt in the NBA..he has been to the Finals 7 times, and only had 1 standout performance..beating his peak won't be too difficult for Lebron, all he would need is 2-3 rings as a #1, which shouldn't be a problem..

The rings argument is fairly weak..Hakeem with 2 rings > Kobe with 5, tbh..

[namlook]

Kobe has never made the playoffs without having a team with one of the highest payrolls in the NBA..he has never won a title without having the best frontcourt in the NBA

Weak.

Bird had a freaking Hall of Fame front line across the board and never won without TWO Hall of Fame bigmen. Larry Bird needed two to four Hall of Famers to win three championships. For his first ring he had two Hall of Famers. For his second ring he had THREE Hall Of Famers. For his third ring he had FOUR Hall of Famers. I mean seriously, WTF with the "Kobe only won because he had more talent around him than anyone" bullshit. The talented teammates list starts with Larry Joe Bird.

Magic needed TWO Hall of Famers and a 6-Time League MVP and top 2 player all-time to win five.

Kobe won five with only ONE Hall Of Famer on his team for those championships assuming Gasol does indeed make the HOF. And Gasol was 0 wins and 12 losses in the playoffs before he met Kobe.

Jordan had two Hall of Famers for three of his rings.

How many Hall of Fame players have won five or more rings with only one other Hall of Famer on their team? Not Jordan, Not Bird, Not Magic, Not Russell, Not Shaq, Not Duncan.

LMFAO at the talented teammates argument.



The rings argument is fairly weak..Hakeem with 2 rings > Kobe with 5, tbh..

Bullshit. Hakeem was great but he's become somewhat of a mythological figure and is often talked about in terms that were greater than he really was.

Kobe's career > Hakeem's.

5 Rings > 2
7 Finals appearances > 2
3 Repeats > 1
1 Threepeat > 0
9 All-NBA 1st team > 6
13 All-NBA Teams > 12
9 All-Defensive 1st Team > 5
11 All-Defensive Teams > 9
13 All Star Games > 12
27,868 career points > 26,946

and Kobe is still going....

[ChrisRichards]

Complete bullshit. That's just ignorant. To put your comment in perspective, Phil Jackson has said Kobe is the more skilled player compared to Jordan.
Kobe fans are too gullible. Of course Phil said that, he was coaching Kobe at that time. Its much logical to cater to Kobe's ego considering he's very sensitive when it comes to criticism.


:rollin
We'll see who will have the last laugh two weeks from now. Enjoy your WCF trophy :lol



James would need 3 rings and to catch a case to be in the discussion.
Bron needs just two titles with solid Finals performance to catch up Kobe. I just don't think total ring count qualifies as a valid argument in Kobe's case. He wasn't the best player in those first 3 peat. people know it was Shaq's team.


Dumars won MVP but nobody really remembers that, people however know that was Isiah's team, same with Tony Parker winning the Finals MVP, doesn't matter really because it was Timmy's Spurs.


If Lebron wins two back to back and puts up a better Finals performance than Kobe then the comparison is over. Not only does Lebron offsets Kobe's two titles as the best player but IMO he would also pass Kobe by putting up a better performance.

[TheManFromAcme]

meh,

it's all about the Lakers, not any individual...

stupid arguments

[ChrisRichards]

Bullshit. Hakeem was great but he's become somewhat of a mythological figure and is often talked about in terms that were greater than he really
5 Rings > 2
7 Finals appearances > 2
3 Repeats > 1
1 Threepeat > 0
9 All-NBA 1st team > 6
13 All-NBA Teams > 12
9 All-Defensive 1st Team > 5
11 All-Defensive Teams > 9
13 All Star Games > 12
27,868 career points > 26,946

and Kobe is still going....
:lol most of these awards are a joke. Just look at how many All Defensive teams Kobe has over Olajuwon.

And Kobe Olajuwon rightly deserves that mythological title. He's one of 2-3 players in history to win a title, Finals and regular season MVP's and a DPOY at the same year. he also carried a bunch of true blue collar players with no star power town NBA title.

[Kyle Orton]

What's funny is, Lakers fans are gonna pray Pau Gasol doesn't make the HOF even after playing a major role on 2 of their title teams.

[DMC]

Lebron is full of potential. That we all agree on. He has the potential to be the greatest ever. It takes more than potential. Needing Wade and Bosh to ring doesn't make him look that great tbh. I was much more impressed with him when he beat Detroit with that unreal effort a few years ago to get to the Finals, even though he was swept in the Finals. He didn't have the team to beat SA. Now he does, but maybe he's got too much. Maybe the deck is so stacked in his favor that it will taint any ring he wins.

He probably doesn't care, just wants a ring.

[DMC]

:lol most of these awards are a joke. Just look at how many All Defensive teams Kobe has over Olajuwon.

And Kobe Olajuwon rightly deserves that mythological title. He's one of 2-3 players in history to win a title, Finals and regular season MVP's and a DPOY at the same year. he also carried a bunch of true blue collar players with no star power town NBA title.

Does not compute...

[DMC]

But5 i have no problem with Lebron>Kobe if and when that time comes ...all greats should be surpassed even ... even MJ. Mj should be Lebron's goal not, Kobe ...

Actually Lebron's goal should be team based. Of all the players who have chased individual accolades, a tiny few have actually succeeded and even then it's been overshadowed by players on other teams who have elevated the team.

If Lebron is ever considered the greatest of all time, he will have jumped many hurdles that we haven't even discussed, like the fact that he was considered great before ever stepping onto an NBA floor. MJ was never expected to be as great as he was. That seems to be a non-factor, maybe even that pressure could force failure, but I think Lebron gets to CLEP out of many of the tests MJ had to pass to be considered great.

Who has Lebron owned, what powerhouse team has he struggled to beat and finally beaten? The Celtics don't count because we could easily split that between he and Wade, maybe even Bosh.

Where Pippen came in to help MJ, Lebron and Wade are much closer to being MJ than Pippen was. Pippen was great, but a different type of player than either Lebron or Wade. So you have two MJ like players playing together, you cannot give the same amount of MVPness to each. It must be divided somewhere. This is why players like Manu will never be in that kind of talk, even if he had 5 rings. There are too many other great players who could also be given the award of MVP. With MJ, it wasn't in question.

Anyone who thinks Lebron is going to approach MJ status didn't watch MJ win all those rings in his prime. He was simply amazing to watch, and his mark on the league is still seen today and will be 20 years from now. People will be compared to him for a long long time. MJ was compared to Dr J, but not for long. No one was compared to J after that, and it's been comparing to MJ ever since. That's been a long time without anyone else becoming the benchmark.

[Killakobe81]

Actually Lebron's goal should be team based. Of all the players who have chased individual accolades, a tiny few have actually succeeded and even then it's been overshadowed by players on other teams who have elevated the team.

If Lebron is ever considered the greatest of all time, he will have jumped many hurdles that we haven't even discussed, like the fact that he was considered great before ever stepping onto an NBA floor. MJ was never expected to be as great as he was. That seems to be a non-factor, maybe even that pressure could force failure, but I think Lebron gets to CLEP out of many of the tests MJ had to pass to be considered great.

Who has Lebron owned, what powerhouse team has he struggled to beat and finally beaten? The Celtics don't count because we could easily split that between he and Wade, maybe even Bosh.

Where Pippen came in to help MJ, Lebron and Wade are much closer to being MJ than Pippen was. Pippen was great, but a different type of player than either Lebron or Wade. So you have two MJ like players playing together, you cannot give the same amount of MVPness to each. It must be divided somewhere. This is why players like Manu will never be in that kind of talk, even if he had 5 rings. There are too many other great players who could also be given the award of MVP. With MJ, it wasn't in question.

Anyone who thinks Lebron is going to approach MJ status didn't watch MJ win all those rings in his prime. He was simply amazing to watch, and his mark on the league is still seen today and will be 20 years from now. People will be compared to him for a long long time. MJ was compared to Dr J, but not for long. No one was compared to J after that, and it's been comparing to MJ ever since. That's been a long time without anyone else becoming the benchmark.

I never said he should chase "individual accolades" ...the OP's point was if he wins 1 ring does he "surpass". My point was that he needs 3 rings at least,probably 4. 4 combined with all of Lebron's accomplishments both team based and individual would be enough to surpass Kobe. In most folks eyes. But again with the "help" Lebron has and how great he is MJ and his 6 rings should be the goal. If Lebron only surpasses Kobe with his "gifts" ...as crazy as it sounds is probably "underaceiving".

I agree Lebron is the most hyped athlete in NBA history and to meet MOSt of those expectations is a hell of a ccomplishment. But to whom much is given much is Expected. James was given all you could ask for from God, court vision, hops, speed and power. He should win at least as much as MJ because physically he is better. The question is does he has the mental stamina to will his team to 6 like Mj. Someone mentioned that Mj's mental game is underrated and I agree. Lebron has every other advantage (besides mental) and a HOF coach ...

[Killakobe81]

Kobe fans are too gullible. Of course Phil said that, he was coaching Kobe at that time. Its much logical to cater to Kobe's ego considering he's very sensitive when it comes to criticism.


We'll see who will have the last laugh two weeks from now. Enjoy your WCF trophy :lol



Bron needs just two titles with solid Finals performance to catch up Kobe. I just don't think total ring count qualifies as a valid argument in Kobe's case. He wasn't the best player in those first 3 peat. people know it was Shaq's team.


Dumars won MVP but nobody really remembers that, people however know that was Isiah's team, same with Tony Parker winning the Finals MVP, doesn't matter really because it was Timmy's Spurs.


If Lebron wins two back to back and puts up a better Finals performance than Kobe then the comparison is over. Not only does Lebron offsets Kobe's two titles as the best player but IMO he would also pass Kobe by putting up a better performance.

What you think and what will be the "reality and the Perception of the league are two different things. But the Lebron/Kobe debate is so childish. Lebron stakes should be higher like KAreem and MJ at 6 and he should be looking to surpass the legacy of those 2 and Magic. Kobe Duncan and Bird is probably the "low hanging fruit" ...tbh in relative terms.

[ambchang]

Kobe has always been ranked higher than Lebron because he had better teammates.

Now that LeBron have better teammates, we can say LeBron > Kobe.

[DMC]

I never said he should chase "individual accolades" ...the OP's point was if he wins 1 ring does he "surpass". My point was that he needs 3 rings at least,probably 4. 4 combined with all of Lebron's accomplishments both team based and individual would be enough to surpass Kobe. In most folks eyes. But again with the "help" Lebron has and how great he is MJ and his 6 rings should be the goal. If Lebron only surpasses Kobe with his "gifts" ...as crazy as it sounds is probably "underaceiving".

I agree Lebron is the most hyped athlete in NBA history and to meet MOSt of those expectations is a hell of a ccomplishment. But to whom much is given much is Expected. James was given all you could ask for from God, court vision, hops, speed and power. He should win at least as much as MJ because physically he is better. The question is does he has the mental stamina to will his team to 6 like Mj. Someone mentioned that Mj's mental game is underrated and I agree. Lebron has every other advantage (besides mental) and a HOF coach ...
Then you should have said his goal should be the Bulls of that era, not Jordan.

MJ's mental game was not underrated. Him and Rodman were able to get into the head of the opponent, all the way up to the coach. The difference is that no one could do anything about Michael.

[DMC]

Kobe has always been ranked higher than Lebron because he had better teammates.

Now that LeBron have better teammates, we can say LeBron > Kobe.
That makes no sense. Fisher had those same teammates. Why is he not ranked higher than Lebron?

[DMC]

What you think and what will be the "reality and the Perception of the league are two different things. But the Lebron/Kobe debate is so childish. Lebron stakes should be higher like KAreem and MJ at 6 and he should be looking to surpass the legacy of those 2 and Magic. Kobe Duncan and Bird is probably the "low hanging fruit" ...tbh in relative terms.
No.

He should be worried about winning one. You cannot win 6 before you win 1.

[Isitjustme?]

What's funny is, Lakers fans are gonna pray Pau Gasol doesn't make the HOF even after playing a major role on 2 of their title teams.

Not even close to how bad they treat Shaq after he gifted them three titles.

[namlook]

:lol most of these awards are a joke. Just look at how many All Defensive teams Kobe has over Olajuwon.


Yeah funny how the awards are a joke now but were not when Hakeem played because it suits you. You think people don't see through this line of bullshit you peddle. :lol

Also funny how you and everyone else ignore this:

Bird had a freaking Hall of Fame front line across the board and never won without TWO Hall of Fame bigmen. Larry Bird needed two to four Hall of Famers to win three championships. For his first ring he had two Hall of Famers. For his second ring he had THREE Hall Of Famers. For his third ring he had FOUR Hall of Famers. I mean seriously, WTF with the "Kobe only won because he had more talent around him than anyone" bullshit. The talented teammates list starts with Larry Joe Bird.

Magic needed TWO Hall of Famers and a 6-Time League MVP and top 2 player all-time to win five.

Kobe won five with only ONE Hall Of Famer on his team for those championships assuming Gasol does indeed make the HOF. And Gasol was 0 wins and 12 losses in the playoffs before he met Kobe.

Jordan had two Hall of Famers for three of his rings.

How many Hall of Fame players have won five or more rings with only one other Hall of Famer on their team?
Not Jordan, Not Bird, Not Magic, Not Russell, Not Shaq, Not Duncan.

LMFAO at the talented teammates argument.

[DMC]

Not even close to how bad they treat Shaq after he gifted them three titles.
Or Magic after 5

[ChrisRichards]

Does not compute...

Damn auto save :lol


Yeah funny how the awards are a joke now but were not when Hakeem played because it suits you. You think people don't see through this line of bullshit you peddle. :lol


Dude the awards are shitty nowadays because the media and coaches doesnt seem to care as much and they changed the criteria for the most part. All NBA teams in particular are all based on reputation. Every knows Kobe doesnt deserve thos 1st team defensive selections for AT LEAST the past 2-3 years.




Also funny how you and everyone else ignore this:

Bird had a freaking Hall of Fame front line across the board and never won without TWO Hall of Fame bigmen. Larry Bird needed two to four Hall of Famers to win three championships. For his first ring he had two Hall of Famers. For his second ring he had THREE Hall Of Famers. For his third ring he had FOUR Hall of Famers. I mean seriously, WTF with the "Kobe only won because he had more talent around him than anyone" bullshit. The talented teammates list starts with Larry Joe Bird.

Magic needed TWO Hall of Famers and a 6-Time League MVP and top 2 player all-time to win five.

Kobe won five with only ONE Hall Of Famer on his team for those championships assuming Gasol does indeed make the HOF. And Gasol was 0 wins and 12 losses in the playoffs before he met Kobe.

Jordan had two Hall of Famers for three of his rings.

How many Hall of Fame players have won five or more rings with only one other Hall of Famer on their team?
Not Jordan, Not Bird, Not Magic, Not Russell, Not Shaq, Not Duncan.

LMFAO at the talented teammates argument.


# 1. Shaq and Gasol are both HOF'ers.
# 2. Unlike Magic who practically carried the Lakers into a championship during his rookie year, Kobe ran out of gas when it mattered (Finals). I don't think he ever shot better than 45% in the Finals and his playoff numbers dips in June. Larry & Magic always performed better. I think this is where the seperation becomes apparent.


I'm not one of those critics who uses Kobe's supporting cast against him, all the great ones needed help. I do believe however that Kobe had/has the better teammates. Dude, we're talking about Shaq here lol and Gasol whose been the second best european player in this decade. McHale IMO is overrated, so is James Worthy. Robert Parish too. Larry Bird and Magic carried their tired asses. You can't say the same for Kobe tbh.

[LnGrrrR]

The real problem for Lebron is that I doubt he will ever be beloved by the fanbase. Miami isn't really known as a basketball hotspot, so he won't get the same love that Jordan, Bird, Magic etc generated.

[LnGrrrR]

And Namlook, what a fucking awful take.

Tell me, how many Hall of Famers were the Lakers matched up against during their first threepeat?

[Fabbs]

And Namlook, what a fucking awful take.

Tell me, how many Hall of Famers were the Lakers matched up against during their first threepeat?
This.
No one outside of puppet Laker Fan respects the rigged titles. Only Kobe FanBoi thinks Bryant played a leading role in any of them.

0

[Fabbs]

The real problem for Lebron is that I doubt he will ever be beloved by the fanbase. Miami isn't really known as a basketball hotspot, so he won't get the same love that Jordan, Bird, Magic etc generated.
Champing this year will begin to change all of that.
Repeating or doing 2 of 3 will also ramp up the love Xs 10.

LeBron is already better then Kobme and the gap will just keep getting wider as we move forward.

[Giuseppe]

This.
No one outside of puppet Laker Fan respects the rigged titles. Only Kobe FanBoi thinks Bryant played a leading role in any of them.

0

Kobe: 5

tired old shit bag Duncan: 4

& that's just the way it's gonna be, Fabbs.

[024]

at the current trajectory lebron's career is heading, he will have not problem beating out kobe's accomplishments. lebron's stats and efficiency are better, he is on course to have about the same number of all-nba, defensive all-nba, and all-star selections, and lebron already has more MVP's than kobe (lebron's count will increase imo). lebron just needs a couple rings and finals MVP to wrap things up, which will be easily achieved in the 8-10 years he has left.

the real debate is whether or not wade can surpass kobe.

[Ice009]

I never said he should chase "individual accolades" ...the OP's point was if he wins 1 ring does he "surpass". My point was that he needs 3 rings at least,probably 4. 4 combined with all of Lebron's accomplishments both team based and individual would be enough to surpass Kobe. In most folks eyes. But again with the "help" Lebron has and how great he is MJ and his 6 rings should be the goal. If Lebron only surpasses Kobe with his "gifts" ...as crazy as it sounds is probably "underaceiving".

I agree Lebron is the most hyped athlete in NBA history and to meet MOSt of those expectations is a hell of a ccomplishment. But to whom much is given much is Expected. James was given all you could ask for from God, court vision, hops, speed and power. He should win at least as much as MJ because physically he is better. The question is does he has the mental stamina to will his team to 6 like Mj. Someone mentioned that Mj's mental game is underrated and I agree. Lebron has every other advantage (besides mental) and a HOF coach ...

How come no one ever discusses the time off Jordan took? It's very hard to keep competing mentally that long and if Jordan never took those two years off who is to say that he wouldn't have burnt out? I think the time off helped him recharge mentally and physically, not many players can do that.

[ChrisRichards]

at the current trajectory lebron's career is heading, he will have not problem beating out kobe's accomplishments. lebron's stats and efficiency are better, he is on course to have about the same number of all-nba, defensive all-nba, and all-star selections, and lebron already has more MVP's than kobe (lebron's count will increase imo). lebron just needs a couple rings and finals MVP to wrap things up, which will be easily achieved in the 8-10 years he has left.

the real debate is whether or not wade can surpass kobe.

Wade doesn't have a chance anymore. Wade's peak was wasted from 08-10. This year and the next 2,he will be under Lebron's shadow. Wade may crack Top 15 if the Heat wins at least 2 more titles.

[namlook]

# 1. Shaq and Gasol are both HOF'ers.

I do believe however that Kobe had/has the better teammates. Dude, we're talking about Shaq here lol and Gasol whose been the second best european player in this decade. McHale IMO is overrated, so is James Worthy. Robert Parish too. Larry Bird and Magic carried their tired asses. You can't say the same for Kobe tbh.

#1: Kobe has only had one Hall of Famer playing beside him at any one time him when he won five rings. That's the point. No other Hall of Fame player in NBA history other than Kobe has won five rings with only one other Hall of Famer playing beside them on each championship run. No one.

Furthermore, Gasol is not even a lock for the Hall. Before he hooked up with Kobe for a full season he had made only one all-star game in 7 years and was 0 wins and 12 losses in the playoffs. Suddenly he becomes all-world when he joins Kobe. That's fucking hilarious. Ya think Kobe had anything to do with Gasol's sudden success? Maybe just a little? :lol Even if Gasol is a HOFer, which I am just assuming here for the sake of argument that he is since he has a solid chance at it, that still means Kobe has had less help than any Hall of Famer in NBA history who has won 5 rings. They all had two, three, four Hall of Famers around them.

Kobe had better teammates than Bird and Magic? Players like McHale and Worthy were overrated? Complete bullshit. You obviously never saw them play. Worthy was a finals MVP playing with Magic and Kareem. Barkley said McHale is the best player he ever played against. Yeah they were overrated. LOL. How about Kareem with 6 league MVPs? :lmao

Point of all this being that Lebron is not passing Kobe in an all-time list by winning one ring. He'll realistically need four rings including at least four more years of 1st team all-NBA performance to be talking about that. And it also depends what else Kobe does the rest of his career. If Kobe squeezes out 6 or 7 rings in his career Lebron ain't passing him with only four, particularly given the talent level Lebron is playing with right now.

I'd like to see what Lebron can do with just he and Wade and no other all-stars - just non-allstar role players around those two top five players. That would be the true test.

[pass1st]

I would say LBJ surpassed Kobe if he established himself as a leader and repeated. It is still Wade's team, but if he can win a finals MVP this year that might change.

I would equate LBJ getting a ring from this team to Kobe getting a ring with Shaq. A lot of help from a superstar caliber player. If Wade wasn't there I would say it would be more noteworthy than when Kobe repeated.

As of yet, it will take a few more accomplishments for LBJ to surely surpass Kobe. He's superior by stats, though; a more versatile player.

[ChrisRichards]

#1: Kobe has only had one Hall of Famer playing beside him at any one time him when he won five rings. That's the point. No other Hall of Fame player in NBA history other than Kobe has won five rings with only one other Hall of Famer playing beside them on each championship run. No one.

Furthermore, Gasol is not even a lock for the Hall. Before he hooked up with Kobe for a full season he had made only one all-star game in 7 years and was 0 wins and 12 losses in the playoffs. Suddenly he becomes all-world when he joins Kobe. That's fucking hilarious. Ya think Kobe had anything to do with Gasol's sudden success? Maybe just a little? :lol Even if Gasol is a HOFer, which I am just assuming here for the sake of argument that he is since he has a solid chance at it, that still means Kobe has had less help than any Hall of Famer in NBA history who has won 5 rings. They all had two, three, four Hall of Famers around them.

Kobe had better teammates than Bird and Magic? Players like McHale and Worthy were overrated? Complete bullshit. You obviously never saw them play. Worthy was a finals MVP playing with Magic and Kareem. Barkley said McHale is the best player he ever played against. Yeah they were overrated. LOL. How about Kareem with 6 league MVPs? :lmao

Point of all this being that Lebron is not passing Kobe in an all-time list by winning one ring. He'll realistically need four rings including at least four more years of 1st team all-NBA performance to be talking about that. And it also depends what else Kobe does the rest of his career. If Kobe squeezes out 6 or 7 rings in his career Lebron ain't passing him with only four, particularly given the talent level Lebron is playing with right now.

I'd like to see what Lebron can do with just he and Wade and no other all-stars - just non-allstar role players around those two top five players. That would be the true test.
A few things.

#1. I don't know why you keep pointing out that Kobe only had 1 HoF with when he helped the Lakers win championships. I'm pretty sure Bird & Magic also didn't had teammates that were in the hall at that time. Seriously, that doesn't make sense and I was just going to ignore that part but you keep bringing it up for no reason.


#2. Gasol is a lock for the HOF. it's not based solely on NBA accomplishments. He's a very accomplished European athlete. just google his list of accomplishments, it's actually mind boggling. several player of the year, MVP's and Gold Medals etc. Like it or not, he's a lock.


#3 McHale and Worthy are pretty overrated tbh, especially McHale.

[Baron Davιs]

So what happens when LeBron is 0-2 in final's series?


Matching Kobe's 2 L's in finals as well. :lol

[daspurs]

So what happens when LeBron is 0-2 in final's series?


Matching Kobe's 2 L's in finals as well. :lol

lol leave it to beaver lookin muthafucka

[namlook]

#1. I don't know why you keep pointing out that Kobe only had 1 HoF with when he helped the Lakers win championships. I'm pretty sure Bird & Magic also didn't had teammates that were in the hall at that time. Seriously, that doesn't make sense and I was just going to ignore that part but you keep bringing it up for no reason.

Don't pretend to be so dense and confused like you don't know what I'm talking about. You know exactly what I'm talking about. It's pretty clear which Lakers players from the past decade are talented enough to have a chance at the Hall of Fame. And we already know which players have made the HOF from all those 90's and earlier previous teams so what's your point other than pretending like you don't understand?

You responded to this earlier by saying Shaq and Gasol were both Hall Of Famers.



# 1. Shaq and Gasol are both HOF'ers.


No other Hall of Fame player in NBA history other than Kobe (who is a lock for the HOF) has won five rings with only one other Hall of Famer (or potential Hall of Famer) playing beside them. No one.

There, that better? Help your confusion any? :lol It can't get any more clear than that.



#2. Gasol is a lock for the HOF.

#3 McHale and Worthy are pretty overrated tbh, especially McHale.

Gasol being a lock or not is a matter of opinion which is irrelevant to this discussion since I have been operating under the assumption he will make it for the purposes of my comments.

McHale and Worthy were overrated by who exactly? Are you trying to say they didn't deserve to be Hall Of Famers? If that's what you're hinting at that's another pile of bullshit. Go watch the NBA Dynasty series of the Celtics and Lakers videos if you aren't operating from first hand knowledge of seeing these guys play like I did.

How many players in NBA history have put up a 26.1 PPG 9.9 RPG 60.4% FG season like McHale? Let me help you a little. Shaq has never bested all three of those numbers in one season. Neither did Kareem, or Wilt, or Hakeem, or Russell, or Duncan, or Malone. That's an example of how good McHale was and why Barkley says he's the best player he ever played against. Overrated my ass.

[Venti Quattro]

What's funny is, Lakers fans are gonna pray Pau Gasol doesn't make the HOF even after playing a major role on 2 of their title teams.

The guy is a pussy and all but he's a HOF lock. That's one more prayer not answered

[joshdaboss]

I agree with OP, it's clear LeBron is the better player than Kobe, but he needs a ring before you can call him greater.

I also lold @ Kobe being better than Olajuwon. Hilarious. There are 2 ends of the floor.

[LnGrrrR]

#1: Kobe has only had one Hall of Famer playing beside him at any one time him when he won five rings. That's the point. No other Hall of Fame player in NBA history other than Kobe has won five rings with only one other Hall of Famer playing beside them on each championship run. No one.

Who cares? So the Lakers got a threepeat off in what most people think was essentially the weakest time in the league. Now, I will say that argument could work for the last two, but Hakeem and others have won a few rings without a beta male.

Also, pretty hilarious that you try to equate Parish/McHale with Shaq. Shaq was much more dominant than either of those two. When's the last time you ever heard of Parish or McHale being put in anyone's Top 10 lists?


Point of all this being that Lebron is not passing Kobe in an all-time list by winning one ring. He'll realistically need four rings including at least four more years of 1st team all-NBA performance to be talking about that. And it also depends what else Kobe does the rest of his career. If Kobe squeezes out 6 or 7 rings in his career Lebron ain't passing him with only four, particularly given the talent level Lebron is playing with right now.

I agree with this, but no way is Kobe getting 7 rings. Time just ain't on his side.


I'd like to see what Lebron can do with just he and Wade and no other all-stars - just non-allstar role players around those two top five players. That would be the true test.

Why should he have to? If you remember right, your team was studded with Hall of Famers one year. 2004 ring a bell? But you guys didn't ring.

I would've liked to see Lebron go to a different city and make his own team. But we all know Lebron doesn't have the mental makeup for that now, he's proved it. He needs to be a Robin.

[Giuseppe]

I agree with this, but no way is Kobe getting 7 rings. Time just ain't on his side.

Anything can happen, Ln. Who'd a ever thunk that a savvy NBA veteran like Pierce would play back on Artest in a Game 7 last June?

[Fabbs]

Anything can happen, Ln. Who'd a ever thunk that a savvy NBA veteran like Pierce would play back on Artest in a Game 7 last June?
he ain't no Robert Horry, Skunker.

Excuse me. Stinker!! :rollin

[Bobby Peru]

Lebron has already surpassed Kobe in terms of pure raw skill and leadership.

Kobe still has him beat in accolades but that will change very soon. Poor Kobe, he is a nobody in the league these days.

[Giuseppe]

he ain't no Robert Horry, Skunker.

The Skunker!!!

[LnGrrrR]

Anything can happen, Ln. Who'd a ever thunk that a savvy NBA veteran like Pierce would play back on Artest in a Game 7 last June?

True that. Whoda thunk that the Lakers would lose by 30+ in a Finals deciding game, then go out like punks in the 4th game of a sweep, throwing cheap shots?

[Giuseppe]

True that. Whoda thunk that the Lakers would lose by 30+ in a Finals deciding game, then go out like punks in the 4th game of a sweep, throwing cheap shots?

Or, who'd a thunk the Celtics would pull the Sonics pants down only to see their horse get slabbed & tagged?

[Ryan Fitzpatrick]

The Lakers are probably the easiest team to root for. Besides winning every other year, they very rarely give their fans false hope and heartwrenching "what-if" moments. When they lose, they lose soundly.

We'll use the last 15 or so years as an example:

1997: Lose 4-1 to Jazz
1998: Swept by Jazz
1999: Swept by Spurs
2003: 28 point loss in Game 6
2004: Finals beatdown
2005: No playoffs
2006: Game 7 blowout
2007: 4-1 loss to Suns
2008: 39-point clinching loss
2011: Swept by Mavs

Their losses (although rare) are usually so bad that the front office can't sit idly by in the offseason, (like the Spurs do) just hoping for their luck to change. Even when they lose it's in such spectacular fashion that change is called for and they inevitably end up winning in the end.

[LnGrrrR]

Or, who'd a thunk the Celtics would pull the Sonics pants down only to see their horse get slabbed & tagged?

I would answer this, but you've gone too esoteric even for me. :lol

[Giuseppe]

Ok. so, who'd a thunk you'd beat us like a drum on Memorial Day only to turn around and let us steal your cookie in your own backyard in broadlight on the Sabbath?

[Tinystarz]

Ok. so, who'd a thunk you'd beat us like a drum on Memorial Day only to turn around and let us steal your cookie in your own backyard in broadlight on the Sabbath?

o cubby..

[Giuseppe]

o cubby..

o Tiny...

[mindcrime]

No way does Lebron pass Kobe for career achievements with one ring. That's laughable.



Shallow and misguided.

Those of us that know what really happened know that Kobe put up huge performances against the toughest teams the Lakers faced each year of the Lakers threepeat.

In Game 7 of the 2000 WCF against the Blazers Kobe was the MVP of that game with a tremendous all around performance 25/11/7 and guarding Pippen into a 3-10 shooting performance in what was the real NBA finals. Blazers > Pacers that year.

Kobe dominated a great Spurs team in the WCF in 2001 and was the MVP of that series in what was again the real NBA finals . Spurs > 76ers that year.

In 2002 the Lakers/Kings WCF was the real NBA finals. Kings > Nets that year. In game 7 Kobe put up 30/10/7 .

Lets be honest with ourselves here. Kings > Lakers that season. Proof that you need more than talent to win. When your 6"2 PG is the only player with a pair then you're in trouble. I hope Peja has learned from the past and doesn't air ball any 3's in crunch time.

[Giuseppe]

^All you had to do was win, Mind.

[Spursfan092120]

http://trolledbot.net/pix/1239.jpg

[LnGrrrR]

Ok. so, who'd a thunk you'd beat us like a drum on Memorial Day only to turn around and let us steal your cookie in your own backyard in broadlight on the Sabbath?

Who'd a thunk Marc Gasol would be better in the postseason than his older brother?

[picc84]

Lets be honest with ourselves here. Kings > Lakers that season. Proof that you need more than talent to win. When your 6"2 PG is the only player with a pair then you're in trouble. I hope Peja has learned from the past and doesn't air ball any 3's in crunch time.

Christie's was worse. I'd rather hit air than the top of the backboard. That boys nerves were plum shot and no amount of fingers to the air could calm them.

[namlook]

Also, pretty hilarious that you try to equate Parish/McHale with Shaq. Shaq was much more dominant than either of those two.

Sure Shaq was better than either one of them individually but Bird didn't play with only one of them. Bird had two Hall of Famers for ring #1, three Hall of Famers for ring #2 and four Hall of Famers for ring #3.

At least you aren't trying to say McHale was overrated. LOL. McHale was a bad mofo (as was Worthy) and he was hard nosed and tough too. I wish Pau had McHale's disposition.

Shaq was dominant for a decade (from about year #2 to year #11). Shaq was dominant in Orlando but he was never able to win with just any great player next to him. Penny was a 1st team all-NBA guard when Shaq was dominant and they never won a ring.

But I digress. Point is only one guy in NBA history has won 5 rings with no more than one Hall of Fame caliber player (or potential HOF player) playing with him on those championship teams. Everyone else with 5 rings had multiple Hall of Famers helping them out. So the propaganda that haters disseminate that Kobe had more talent around him than all the other great players in NBA history is quite frankly total bullshit.

[Giuseppe]

Who'd a thunk Marc Gasol would be better in the postseason than his older brother?

Reggie Lewis:lmao:lmao:lmao

[TheNextGen]

If Lebron surpasses Kobe cuz he won one ring, then Lebron also surpasses Jordan.

[ChrisRichards]

If Lebron surpasses Kobe cuz he won one ring, then Lebron also surpasses Jordan.

:rolleyes

[TheNextGen]

:rolleyes

dont be mad cuz its true.

You going by stats or accomplishments?

Stats. Lebron > Jordan and Kobe

Accomplishments. Kobe and Jordan > Lebron

Cant have both without making a case for the other.

[Killakobe81]

Then you should have said his goal should be the Bulls of that era, not Jordan.

MJ's mental game was not underrated. Him and Rodman were able to get into the head of the opponent, all the way up to the coach. The difference is that no one could do anything about Michael.

Look we all know bball is a team game and you can not win without help. But some players are transcendant and it's not IF they win a title but more like "when". I think Lebron is one of those as I thought Kobe and Mj were before him. But his "gifts" are so much better then either one of those guys ESPECIAlly Kobe. So now he has help. he only needs to win. sure, some will put an asterisk because of the decision. Not only does he have Wade but Bosh has played better than Wade the last 6.5 games at least ...but for me that shit doesnt matter. he wins I wont make excuses. and if he loses I wont allow him any either ...

[DMC]

Look we all know bball is a team game and you can not win without help. But some players are transcendant and it's not IF they win a title but more like "when". I think Lebron is one of those as I thought Kobe and Mj were before him. But his "gifts" are so much better then either one of those guys ESPECIAlly Kobe. So now he has help. he only needs to win. sure, some will put an asterisk because of the decision. Not only does he have Wade but Bosh has played better than Wade the last 6.5 games at least ...but for me that shit doesnt matter. he wins I wont make excuses. and if he loses I wont allow him any either ...
The bottom line is that you said he should go after Jordan. That's player mentality, not team mentality. Had Jordan not won a ring, he would be just another volume shooter with good stats. Going after Jordan means being a volume shooter with good stats. Going after the Bulls means trying to get your team to the ring, even if that means you have to pass up on a shot or an MVP award to get there.

You won't have to allow him excuses. He's going to use them regardless. Being in Miami, surely the crabs have gotten to him (both kinds).

Teams have a dynamic that's hard to reproduce, and one player cannot simply be good enough to reproduce the entire team dynamic needed to replicate a 6 ring team. It doesn't matter how talented he is, he needs more than that.

[Killakobe81]

The bottom line is that you said he should go after Jordan. That's player mentality, not team mentality. Had Jordan not won a ring, he would be just another volume shooter with good stats. Going after Jordan means being a volume shooter with good stats. Going after the Bulls means trying to get your team to the ring, even if that means you have to pass up on a shot or an MVP award to get there.

You won't have to allow him excuses. He's going to use them regardless. Being in Miami, surely the crabs have gotten to him (both kinds).

He did this already or havent you been watching? I dont think we disagree here. For me, MJ's legacy is tied to his 6 rings . Without them he is Karl Malone or Charles Barkley. Sure a better scorer and a better athlete. But I am not one who crowned MJ BEFORE the 6. I also dont buy all teh leadership stuff. By many accounts much like Kobe Mj was a shitty team-mate and not some faultless mythical leader. But he was so mentally tough and his drive was unmatched (in my lifetime). In some ways, I think Duncan, Lebron and other were better lead by example players. But I can appreciate all leadership styles as long as it leads to winning. so far Lebron's has not. But if and when it does I will give him full credit. Just disappointed he did not do this in Cleveland.

[DMC]

He did this already or havent you been watching? I dont think we disagree here. For me, MJ's legacy is tied to his 6 rings . Without them he is Karl Malone or Charles Barkley. Sure a better scorer and a better athlete. But I am not one who crowned MJ BEFORE the 6. I also dont buy all teh leadership stuff. By many accounts much like Kobe Mj was a shitty team-mate and not some faultless mythical leader. But he was so mentally tough and his drive was unmatched (in my lifetime). In some ways, I think Duncan, Lebron and other were better lead by example players. But I can appreciate all leadership styles as long as it leads to winning. so far Lebron's has not. But if and when it does I will give him full credit. Just disappointed he did not do this in Cleveland.
My point is that Lebron will never be considered the GOAT if he goes out and tries to be that. He has to play his game and hope for some good fortune along the way. He may be the GOAT one day, but he cannot chase it. He can only chase the ring. The GOAT is bestowed later down the road when the entire game is re-examined.