Turning Point of the game

[Wallace ²]

OK everybody. First off, good game for the Spurs, good 42 minutes for the Pistons. I have a question. Putting all biases and allegences aside. What did everybody think of the blocking foul that Ben took on Manu either late in the third or early in the fourth out by the 3 point line. I thought it was clearly a charge because it didnt look like Ben even moved his feet at all. I think this was the turning point. If that is called a charge the Pistons get the ball back with a chance to tie, instead the Spurs made the tech and i believe made a basket to make it a 5 point game. Basically, I just want to know if everybody saw the play the same way I did.

[AFE7FATMAN]

Depends on the angle. I couldn't see his feet on the replay.

[Wallace ²]

Your feet don't have to be still for it to be a charge. As long as you get to the spot before the offensive player, it is a charge. In my opinion, Ben was there before Manu.

[Duncanoypi]

No excuses please...

[Clandestino]

regardless, the foul was called... ben should have kept his cool... either way, manu was taking the game over...

[Wallace ²]

Im not making excuses or talking about "that was the call you have to play through it." I just want to know if people think the call is correct or incorrect in their opinions. I already said that the Spurs played a good game and Detroit didnt finish the game well.
regardless, the foul was called... ben should have kept his cool... either way, manu was taking the game over...
At thatpoint, Manu only had 13 points, he was far from taking over the game. That didnt come until later in the 4th.

[Slo spurs fan]

I think it was a charge, BUT it wasn´t turning point. It was just a begining of the Spurs run :D

[Gerryatrics]

Well, I'll actually be honest. It looked like a blown call to me, Wallace knew Ginobili was going to go left, so when Manu started to make his move Big Ben jumped into position and planted himself on Manu's left side. Ginobili plowed into him and the blocking foul was called, but from what I could see it seemed Wallace had established position and Manu initiated the contact. I don't think that one play cost the Pistons the game, but I would agree it was a bad call.

[Wallace ²]

I think it was a charge, BUT it wasn´t turning point. It was just a begining of the Spurs run :D
And that run was the turning point. If it is called a charge, the Pistons have a chance to tie it, as it was called, the Spurs went up 5. That is a huge swing in a low scoring game like last night.

[Slo spurs fan]

And that run was the turning point. If it is called a charge, the Pistons have a chance to tie it, as it was called, the Spurs went up 5. That is a huge swing in a low scoring game like last night.

I was j/k! :rolleyes

See that :D ?

[Clandestino]

the pistons are the defending champs... they can't let one call bother them like that... if ben loses his cool, that doesn't mean the rest of the team should lay down... they didn't... manu just took over!

[Slomo]

I thought it was a charge. But Ben made it worse by getting a T. They were some pretty bad calls (or non-calls) against the Spurs in the first Q - which helped the Pistons build up their lead. The Spurs played through them - the Pistons didn't.

[Warlord23]

And that run was the turning point. If it is called a charge, the Pistons have a chance to tie it, as it was called, the Spurs went up 5. That is a huge swing in a low scoring game like last night.

Fair enough, it was a 5-point turnaround (assuming Det would have scored on their possession if a charge had been called).

However, there was plenty of time left in the game to undo a 5-point turnaround; and the game ended with Det losing by 15. So you could say it was a blown call, but not something that decided the outcome.

[picnroll]

I think it was a charge. I also think that if the Pistons are so mentally fragile that one missed call is going to take them entirely out of the game that the Spurs should be able to sweep the Pistons.

[Clandestino]

also, in the nba finals, the refs are going to let wallace flop like that...

[2centsworth]

it was clearly a block to me.

[Wallace ²]

Another point, if that is called a charge, then it's Manu's 4th foul and he would maybe come to the bench (probably not). He would have to play more under control and the game might have been closer down the stretch. Again, maybe maybe not.

[Wallace ²]

I found an article on ESPN.com about this play.

SAN ANTONIO -- No comment.

Such words are rare coming from Detroit Pistons guard Chauncey Billups. Of all the members of the reigning NBA champions, none is more eloquent or better at speaking on any subject than "Smooth." But the thought of how the Pistons' game changed in the fourth quarter after Ben Wallace's attempt to draw a charge on the Spurs' Manu Ginobili left Billups speechless.

"No comment," Billups said.

San Antonio held a 55-53 lead with 10:45 remaining in the fourth quarter. With the often-reckless Ginobili barreling toward the basket, the NBA's defensive player of the year attempted to take the charge. The decision could have easily gone in Wallace's behalf. But it didn't. And the emotions afterward changed everything.



Was it a charge or a block? You decide. Watch the play and the rest of Game 1 highlights right here in ESPN Motion.
• Game 1 highlights


After the foul was called, a disgruntled Wallace showed his displeasure and tossed off his headband. Technical foul. The Spurs responded after that with a 19-4 run to take a 74-57 lead. Although the Pistons got within 10 (74-64) with 3:37 left, the whistle from earlier in the fourth quarter was too much to overcome for Detroit and San Antonio went on to a 84-69 victory in Game 1 of the NBA Finals.

When asked a two-part question on Ginobili and the block-charge with Wallace, Billups said: "I'll talk about the first part."

When asked about the block call a little bit later, Billups said: "No comment."

Then, after pausing, Billups finally couldn't contain the disappointment and opened up.

"No, actually, it was," he said. "I thought it was a charge. But it could have really went either way. It was a great play. But I thought it was a charge."

At the time of the charge, Ginobili had yet to score in the fourth quarter. Afterward, he sparked the Spurs to victory by scoring 15 points on 6-of-6 shooting from the field.

When asked if the referee break energized Ginobili, Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said: "No, he's always energized. Seriously, there's not one thing that makes him get going and make him step it up a level. He plays at that pace all the time."

While Ginobili might not have been energized by the play, the Pistons were definitely deflated mentally and emotionally.

[Warlord23]

I found a better one:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=jackson/050609

Ever look in the mirror and see something that looks nothing like you? The identical simulacrum is not a clone, a replica or even an alter ego. Nothing about the image represents anything that you resemble. Yet without question, the reflection that is staring back at you, eyeing your eyes, is you.

Here's the script: They are one. The Pistons, the Spurs. The Champs vs. the ex-Champs. One in the same. Like Mary Kate and Ashley, and not even their physician could tell them apart. Both teams on a two-year course to find each other, to meet at this point.

Now, on the eve of what has been 730 days in the making, the two best teams in basketball are about to decide: Which one of them is being lied to by the mirror on the wall?

*****

The history here is eerie, once studied. It makes the series we are about to witness bigger than just two more weeks of basketball.

Spurs coach Gregg Popovich was Pistons coach Larry Brown's best man at his wedding. Once, as a favor to his friend, Brown scheduled his Kansas team to play Popovich's D-III Pomona-Pitzer squad, and agreed to speak to Pop's team before the game – only to wish them luck and tell them they were about to "get their (butts) kicked." And Dean Smith had them both at UNC (at different times).

Still, Pop, who's been Larry's greatest understudy, got his second ring before Brown got his first.

Rasheed Wallace and Tim Duncan began their battles years ago in the ACC – 'Sheed a Heel, Duncan a Deacon (seems fitting, right?). In '97, it was called the Calm vs. the Storm. In 2005, the same dub. Like their teams, they are opposites, but so much the same, too. Both dominate. In different ways, but still the same.

They've been the bookend definitions of the range of greatness at the four spot. Tim at one end, 'Sheed at the other. Both have held the pound-for-pound title; both hold it now. In between, there has been Garnett, Webber, Nowitzki, J. O'Neal.

Now they face each other for something larger than an ACC tournament title.

In 2003, two players from different sides of the world would join each team and change them beyond their GM's beliefs. One came from Kentucky, the other from Argentina. A performance in the 2002 World Championships made one team believe (even though that team had acquired his draft rights three years prior); a 41-point performance in the NCAA tournament that same year made the other team believe.

They'd come to each team as a role player off the bench, making their impacts in different, often unusual, and spectacular ways. Each year, their scoring averages have gone up. So have other stats – rebounding, assists, steals, playing time – as well as their importance. Each playoff game, their reps got larger. They played together on last year's sophomore squad during the All-Star weekend festivities.

Now, it is specifically because of Manu and Tayshaun that the Spurs and the Pistons are here.

Then there's Big Shot Bob against Mr. Big Shot.

Speaking of Robert Horry, he and Lindsey Hunter are the most important bench players in this series. They both bear the responsibility to lift their teams with the intangibles that no one in the starting five can provide. Their link? They won rings together. Laker days. Now they meet each other here.

Still think this wasn't meant to be?

Both teams play inside a system. Pop has one; L.B. has another. Each system has the same origin, the same lineage. If you listen to any player on either team, the first word out of his mouth is "defense."

Transition defense vs. half-court defense. Both got that. Yet both teams can put 115 on the books if necessary. (Game 2 against each other this season: 110-101 Detroit.)

Ball movement. Both do that. Each team has five players that can score in double figures in every game. Yet both can grind out wins scoring 80, too, if necessary. (Game 1: 80-77 San Antonio.)p>

Both teams are injury-free and have no excuses. Both, too, are unfortunately tagged with the most irritating cliché in professional sports: They play the game the right way .

And as different as their styles might look on the court, the Pistons and the Spurs play the same way, rely on the same philosophy, and garner the same results.

Wins.

What they each have that isn't fraternal …

Fans in SBC, polite and loyal. Fans in the Palace, wild and loyal.

Both teams are tougher than they were a year ago. One team overachieved (beating Phoenix in five), while the other played better when its back was against the wall (beating Miami without home-court advantage in seven). One was built with trades and free agency, the other with original draft choices. One has a roster full of players whose previous teams didn't believe in them, while the other has a roster full of players who have been the belief of only one organization.

The Pistons have flipped uniforms four times in the last 10 years; the Spurs wear the same unis Gervin wore in the ABA.

The differences are drastic. Yet in the mirror, the Pistons and the Spurs only see one another.

*****

Are you the best? Or am I?

That's the question they ask each other when they look in the mirror and see the other. Who is the best basketball team in existence?

Them? Or them?

It began with the Olympics. The destiny of these two teams making it to this point, to meet each other, to look and see each other in the mirror, was shaped the minute the United States became the victim of God's plan to humble American basketball.

Roy Willams, an assistant in Athens, won the NCAA championship. Twisted karma. Now, L.B. and Pop, head coach and assistant, respectively, at the Olympics last summer, get the chance to find that same peace.

God knows that not being the best in the world is a heavy burden to carry here, especially when the coaches of the last two teams to win the world championships are considered partially responsible for the status of American basketball until 2008.

But this is about the best in the world. And who that is.

The San Antonio Spurs and the Detroit Pistons were meant to be here for reasons that are bigger than the fact that they are the two best teams in the NBA.

Their meeting is a part of the restoration needed for a coaching staff (and a country) to have a better summer in 2005 than they (and we) did last year.

Whoever wins this series will restore, somewhat, the sense of superiority of American basketball, without having to face the world to do it. Because once this is all over, two of the three coaches who got out-coached in Athens, whose team got outplayed in Greece 10 months ago, will have won the two biggest prizes in American basketball.

The one who wins the trophy lays claim to the title, "World Champions."

Only Ginobili might have a problem with that.

*****

Lost in all of this is what they've been through. It's what all NBA teams with a Larry O'Brien trophy must endure.

It's called "the Process."

The Spurs and the Pistons are both products of the Process.

Miami and Phoenix can't say that. Maybe next year, they can.

To get an NBA title, a team must go through the process of losing and building in the playoffs. One free agent signing, one trade, and all of a sudden you challenge for the ring?

This isn't baseball. Or the NFL.

The Pistons and the Spurs are proof that winning an NBA title is the most difficult thing to do in professional team sports. There are no fluke champions in David Stern's league. There are no worst-to-first seasons. There are no Minnesota Twins or Florida Marlins. No Baltimore Ravens or Tampa Bay Buccaneers.

And for this reason alone, you must watch, regardless of what talk radio and other media people say about these teams' "unsexiness" and this series' "boredom." You must watch. And appreciate.

To get an NBA chip, every team must go through the journey, the process. Every team, like the Pistons and the Spurs, must lose in the previous years. Lose and learn. Then come back, add a player or two, sign a coach. They must feel the pain of losing a season earlier than expected before they can come back the next year on a mission not even the Red Sox could comprehend.

This is what sports, not just basketball, is all about.

And this is why the next two weeks are so significant. Because in the last two years, these two teams have gone through the wire to prove to the world that they are the best. In 2003, San An proved it; the next year, Detroit showed and proved it.

Now they face each other to find out if what they see in the mirror is their own destiny looking back at them, or just the other team.

[jochhejaam]

OK everybody. First off, good game for the Spurs, good 42 minutes for the Pistons. I have a question. Putting all biases and allegences aside. What did everybody think of the blocking foul that Ben took on Manu either late in the third or early in the fourth out by the 3 point line. I thought it was clearly a charge because it didnt look like Ben even moved his feet at all. I think this was the turning point. If that is called a charge the Pistons get the ball back with a chance to tie, instead the Spurs made the tech and i believe made a basket to make it a 5 point game. Basically, I just want to know if everybody saw the play the same way I did.

Horrible call but we took a butt whuppin'! If we had lost by 1 or 2 it may have loomed large but we got beat by...15?
Spurs outplayed us. Duncan in the first half and Manu in the second half.
Tough defense, I think we hit about 30% of our shots.
Great win Spurs fans!!!

[ZappaFan]

Clearly it was a charge, but calls are blown for both teams at various points in the game. Spurs got a little home cooking with the refs, but that's not why they won. Ben blew it by the way he reacted to it. Bens fond of saying it's time to shut up and play. He should follow his own advice. I love Ben, but this is the Finals. If they let a bad call like that get inside their head it's not helping things.

[Wallace ²]

I said later in the thread that the Spurs played better. Im not knocking them, I was just curious as to whether or not people saw the play the same way that I did. Thats all.

[Wallace ²]

Ben blew it by the way he reacted to it. Bens fond of saying it's time to shut up and play. He should follow his own advice. I love Ben, but this is the Finals. If they let a bad call like that get inside their head it's not helping things.

Ive been saying that same thing about our whole team this entire season. They think because they are the defending champs, they should get some special treatment. Last year, Sheed got a lot of techs, but most of the other guys kept their cool most of the time. Now, after every foul call, they have to go talk to the refs about it. The main culprits are Ben, Sheed, Rip & Tay. Chauncey usually doesn't argue too many calls.

[Mark in Austin]

I think it was a charge, but you know, if Ben hadn't flopped he probably would have got the call... it's just not believeable for somebody as slight as Manu to run into Ben (and not at anywhere close to full speed) and that knocks Ben clear on his ass? The refs saw that and rolled their eyes.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

It was a charge, and no, that's not why you lost. Simple as that

[NoMoneyDown]

OK everybody. First off, good game for the Spurs, good 42 minutes for the Pistons. I have a question. Putting all biases and allegences aside. What did everybody think of the blocking foul that Ben took on Manu either late in the third or early in the fourth out by the 3 point line. I thought it was clearly a charge because it didnt look like Ben even moved his feet at all. I think this was the turning point. If that is called a charge the Pistons get the ball back with a chance to tie, instead the Spurs made the tech and i believe made a basket to make it a 5 point game. Basically, I just want to know if everybody saw the play the same way I did.

IF it was an offensive foul, and IF it was the turning point in the game, it's only because Detroit made it a turning point. As someone here said in another thread, you have to play through calls like that and not lose your head. We can WHAT-IF ourselves to death, but it doesn't change what actually happened.

[Useruser666]

I guess it was a fair trade off for that offensive foul call on Tim when Wallace ran up to him and flopped earlier. This kind of thing happens both ways in games. There is no real complaining to be done, just play through the best you can.

[Wallace ²]

I wish that all sports would get rid of flopping. Iverson does it all the time, and so do most other players in the NBA. It irritates me. There were 2 good examples in game 1. When Hunter charged on Manu. That was a charge, but not to the extent that Manu made it look. And this play that we are talking about, the Ben/Manu debate.

[silverandblackreign]

You mention that it was a turning point because the Spurs went up 5, but Wallace was the one that lost his cool and got the tech to give the extra shot. If Wallace doesn't lose his cool, maybe the Spurs only go up 4, or Detroit makes a stand - and goes back to tie it up. Either way - your in the Finals, and it s no time to pull that crap by either of the Wallaces. Therefore - Wallace losing his cool would be more of a turning point then the "no call".....

[samikeyp]

I wish that all sports would get rid of flopping. Iverson does it all the time, and so do most other players in the NBA. It irritates me. There were 2 good examples in game 1. When Hunter charged on Manu. That was a charge, but not to the extent that Manu made it look. And this play that we are talking about, the Ben/Manu debate.

I would agree. As a purist, it bugs me when Manu does it...even though it usually brings good results. Ben Wallace is too good of a defender to have to rely on flopping. That first foul call on Duncan in the 1Q, you would have thought some shot Ben from the upper deck. But at least TD is close to his size.....Manu is 3 inches shorter and 35 pounds lighter...no way he knocks Big Ben down! The dude is made of granite. The Lord shot a thunderbolt in the side of a mountain, busted out a chunk of rock and thus was born Ben Wallace!

[bigbendbruisebrother]

I thought it was a charge. But Ben made it worse by getting a T. They were some pretty bad calls (or non-calls) against the Spurs in the first Q - which helped the Pistons build up their lead. The Spurs played through them - the Pistons didn't.

Perfectly put. I thought Parker got mugged in the first quarter three times with no call.

[OH BE 1 GINOBLI]

It most definitely was a charge on Manu! But we could do the what ifs till the cows come calling. I mean really what if the Queen had balls...well I guess she would be the King then ehh! :smokin

[ChumpDumper]

Centers don't flop above the free throw line.

It's unseemly.

[ambchang]

I thought it was a charge, but I was surprised how Wallace reacted to it. First off, if he didn't flop, there would have been no foul called (perhaps this is the way the refs try to discourage flops), second, if he didn't went apeshit, there would be no tech called.
But I am just so so so glad to have Pistons fans come in and act like real men, I suppose that's what a championship brings to their fans, confidence and knowledge.

[Wallace ²]

But I am just so so so glad to have Pistons fans come in and act like real men, I suppose that's what a championship brings to their fans, confidence and knowledge.

I actually like this board a lot better than the Pistons board. There are a lot more debates in here, rather than the "my team is better than yours...." Since the Pistons won the championship, the board has been flooded with bandwagon fans who dont know jack about the other teams in the NBA but think they know everything. It gets really annoying most of the time. Spurs fans are good and can carry on a debate without saying stupid things.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I actually like this board a lot better than the Pistons board. There are a lot more debates in here, rather than the "my team is better than yours...." Since the Pistons won the championship, the board has been flooded with bandwagon fans who dont know jack about the other teams in the NBA but think they know everything. It gets really annoying most of the time. Spurs fans are good and can carry on a debate without saying stupid things.
SOME Spurs fans are that way, you'd be surprised to see how many dumbasses enter even this forum. Don't be discouraged if you find a moron in here that just wants to insult you rather than to have an intelligent conversation.

[SWC Bonfire]

Spurs fans are good and can carry on a debate without saying stupid things.

Stick around, we'll make you eat those words...:lol

I think the turning around point was much earlier, back in the 1st. There was a fastbreak w/ TP getting easy points; it was like a light turned on and a huge obelisk was placed on the court a la 2001 A Space Odyssey. Hey - we don't have to play all half court, we can actually run on the other half!

The game tempo changed some on the Spurs end of the floor after that, and the game 7 fatigue caught up to the Pistons in the 4th.

[spurster]

I thought Manu running into Ben should have been a charge. Manu was involved in another almost charge on one of his basket attacks, but the Detroit defender was just stepping out of the circle. I think the refs couldn't decide whose foul that was.

Turning point though? The turning point was that Manu stepped it up and the Pistons defense didn't.

[MI21]

It was a flop, but still a charge. I agree with Chump, a center can't be flopping above the 3pt line and expect to get a call against a slender guard.

Tony and Manu got absolutely mugged at the rim for the first 3 quarters, so I feel no need to be sympathetic to Piston fans.

[td4mvp21]

It was one of those fouls to where since we were playing at home, it went our way. If we were in Detroit, it probably would have gone to the Pistons.

[Spurminator]

I thought it was a bad call, but the ensuing Pistons collapse was all on them. This is the second time I've seen them fall apart after questionable calls in these Playoffs, and I haven't watched half of their Playoff games.

[SouthernFried]

Ben was flopping, trying to get charges all night long. He musta done it 5 or 6 times. Going to the well too often mighta hurt him when a real charge happened.

Yes, I think it was a bad call, but, christ...the ONLY reason that call was a turning point...is because DETROIT let it be. The freakin' imploded after that. There were several bad calls, going BOTH ways, earlier in the game...and yes, the charge "inside" the arc was just "one" of them.

The non-charging call on Manu was only a turning point because DT freaked out over it. It's ONE lousy call. Now DT fans are also goin' a li'l nuts over it. Ya'll letting it get to your "their-out-to-get-us-and-no-respect-for-us" heads.

It's the FINALS...refs gonna let them play. Get over it. And BEN...stay on your freakin' feet! Quit flopping "hoping" the refs are gonna give you calls...this is the FINALS, don't rely on the calls...and don't let a call destroy your entire team.

And that goes for fans too. The more you focus on it, the more your gonna keep focusing on it, and the more your TEAM will focus on it. And if that happens, and you get another bad call, the players will think they are justified in going off about it.

Then, say goodbye to the championship.

[coz]

THAT was a charge, but the call was made as a makeup for the pushing and bumping the refs missed two seconds previous. Ben got away with a hard shove on Manu, the refs didn't call it, so when a block/charge happened, the refs went with Manu. You can't mug a guy 30 feet from the basket for 10 seconds and not expect to have that called a block.

[duncan_21]

Well after watching the game last nite and rewatching the 4th quarter this morning I got to see that play in slo mo using the tivo quite a few times. To me in real time I think it was a tough call.

It looked to me that there wasn't enough contact to cause ben to fall down in real time. His flop made the refs call the play one way or the other. It just went against the pistons. The flop was clearly there to see when I watched it over a few times. Was it the turning point in the game? IMO no the pistons battled back and were playing some good defense but nothin was stopping manu in that 4th quarter.

IMO if ben didn't flop there would have been a no call. There was some contact but not enough to warrant a foul either way.

His technical didn't help his cause either.

[vanvannen]

I think it was clearly a charge. On the other hand, Ben flopped so badly that I think the refs didn't want to reward him. He should take lessons from Manu. :lol

[grjr]

Well after watching the game last nite and rewatching the 4th quarter this morning I got to see that play in slo mo using the tivo quite a few times. To me in real time I think it was a tough call.

It looked to me that there wasn't enough contact to cause ben to fall down in real time. His flop made the refs call the play one way or the other. It just went against the pistons. The flop was clearly there to see when I watched it over a few times. Was it the turning point in the game? IMO no the pistons battled back and were playing some good defense but nothin was stopping manu in that 4th quarter.

IMO if ben didn't flop there would have been a no call. There was some contact but not enough to warrant a foul either way.

His technical didn't help his cause either.-

I haven't rewatched the play today but when I replayed the original angle last night it looked like Ben stuck his right arm out into Manu's path. You really couldn't see that from the replays that were shown but the ref would have had a good angle on it. You can't do that if you're trying to take a charge and I think that's what swayed the call to a block.

Anyone else with the game recorded might take a look at the play as it happened again and see what you think.

[ambchang]

I thought Manu running into Ben should have been a charge. Manu was involved in another almost charge on one of his basket attacks, but the Detroit defender was just stepping out of the circle. I think the refs couldn't decide whose foul that was.

I believe I know which play you were referring to. Manu made the bucket and no foul called, right? The defender had his heel on the line, and his feet shifted, so it would be a block if it was called, but since Manu made that basket and the contact came after the ball left Manu's hand, the refs are not going to call it.

[ambchang]

Oh, and all this talk about the turning point. If the Pistons actually went on to win the game, we will be hearing how that bad call fired up the Pistons and allowed them to concentrate and focus to prove the world wrong. In other words, turning points are overrated, they are just there to dramatize an otherwise unassuming moment.

[nkdlunch]

Ben flopped period. Come on, he is used to guarding Shaq, and Manu is gonna drop him like that???

[NoMoneyDown]

Ben flopped period. Come on, he is used to guarding Shaq, and Manu is gonna drop him like that???

Word.

[Jimcs50]

charge

[Solid D]

Javie missed the call. I don't know if it really changed the outcome of who wins the game. The Spurs won every quarter except the first and were really strong after the 17-4 start.

I also thought Ronnie missed a out-of-bounds call in favor of the Spurs with Tim standing there getting a rebound and a Piston clearly knocked the ball out. I also thought the Spurs (and Tim) got the raw end of a jump ball in their offensive end when the ball was tossed up and to the right where only Ben could reach it. It ended up being a big stop for Detroit at the time.

[NCaliSpurs]

I think there were a few blown calls in favor of the Spurs, but by and large, especially the first half, I thought the pistons were allowed to grab, slap, and push a lot more than the Spurs were allowed to touch.

Firstly, I'll say that the call could have gone either way, though Ben certainly 1) bowed his knees and leaned a bit and 2) flopped.

Lastly, Ben set himself up for a foul. Immediately after the screen that resulted in Ben switching onto Manu, Manu penetrated and Ben obviously committed a blocking foul on him that the refs KNEW they should have called but didn't.

Which all went to set up the whole controversy which shouldn't even be a controversy. Ginobilli penetrated again, Ben leaned in a smidge and flopped, and the refs made a make up call.

[MainEvent]

Ben flopped period. Come on, he is used to guarding Shaq, and Manu is gonna drop him like that???

Yeah, and Manu didn't flop from the little elbow Lindsay gave him?

It was a bad call, and Ben reacted because it was the second horrible call to go against him. The other one was when they called a charge on Ben when Nazr was about 2 feet inside the circle. Just two ridiculous calls. (The other one on Manu taking it to the rim when he plowed into Ben was probably a good no call. Ben's heel was on the circle and the contact wasn't direct.)

However, as a number of people said, while it was a momentum swing, it certainly isn't the reason the Pistons lost that game. Manu getting to the rim and the Spurs offensive rebounding were the key to this game. As was the horrible shooting of Antonio McDyess. The Pistons will not beat the Spurs if McDyess is going to miss open short jumper after open short jumper.

[MainEvent]

I think there were a few blown calls in favor of the Spurs, but by and large, especially the first half, I thought the pistons were allowed to grab, slap, and push a lot more than the Spurs were allowed to touch.

And I think the Spurs were allowed to clutch and grab just as much in the 2nd. I'm not really complaining about the officiating though. Except for a few obviously blown calls, I thought the refs did a pretty good job of letting the teams play. And the Spurs were just more aggressive in the 4th.

[picnroll]

If a little exaggerating of contact "flopping" is so horrible how do people feel about a little clearing out, pushing off with the off arm a la MJ, Kobe, Pierce, Allen, etc. to get space to shoot or throw the defender off balance to get by him? Is that okay? Or the little bump, enough to throw the shot off? Should player just take it like a man, let the other player get the advantage and beat him or should he accentuate the contact to try to draw the foul?

Personally I think a little "flopping" is fine. No worse than many other tricks that are used. Now when you have a Fortson falling down when Parker comes within five feet of him, that's another story.

[orhe]

well my analysis ... Wallace bumped him before he that play... the refs missed it... Ginobili then decided to bump him again... dude the guy was just standing there and Manu decide to just smash him... man he knew he was gonna get the call :) pistons were getting away with a lot of hip check that one was payback

and oh Ben flopped too!

[nkdlunch]

Yeah, and Manu didn't flop from the little elbow Lindsay gave him?

It was a bad call, and Ben reacted because it was the second horrible call to go against him. The other one was when they called a charge on Ben when Nazr was about 2 feet inside the circle. Just two ridiculous calls. (The other one on Manu taking it to the rim when he plowed into Ben was probably a good no call. Ben's heel was on the circle and the contact wasn't direct.)

However, as a number of people said, while it was a momentum swing, it certainly isn't the reason the Pistons lost that game. Manu getting to the rim and the Spurs offensive rebounding were the key to this game. As was the horrible shooting of Antonio McDyess. The Pistons will not beat the Spurs if McDyess is going to miss open short jumper after open short jumper.

You're depending on McDyess making shots?? How about Hamilton or 'Sheed. Pistons lost 'cause we shut you down offensively, not like you guys are a marvel offensively, but 69 points ain't gonna be enough.

[orhe]

MainEvent...
well i'll try to reason out why the refs called that offensive (Ben on Nazr)
i think it could've gone both ways.

the way Ben wallace leaned unto Nazr was crazy... he was like 45 degrees if he did it the way Manu does it (horizontal leap, close to vertical body) he'll get that call 10/10 times. but Ben decided to go shoulder first.. i guess that's why

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Yeah, and Manu didn't flop from the little elbow Lindsay gave him?

It was a bad call, and Ben reacted because it was the second horrible call to go against him. The other one was when they called a charge on Ben when Nazr was about 2 feet inside the circle. Just two ridiculous calls. (The other one on Manu taking it to the rim when he plowed into Ben was probably a good no call. Ben's heel was on the circle and the contact wasn't direct.)

However, as a number of people said, while it was a momentum swing, it certainly isn't the reason the Pistons lost that game. Manu getting to the rim and the Spurs offensive rebounding were the key to this game. As was the horrible shooting of Antonio McDyess. The Pistons will not beat the Spurs if McDyess is going to miss open short jumper after open short jumper.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight... you lost because McDyess wasn't making his shots... it couldn't have been because Sheed had only 6 points instead of the usual 14, or the fact that Hamilton made only 7 of his 21 shots and then had to surgically remove Bowen from his ass. Ofcourse not! McDyess is the KEY!

[MainEvent]

Did you guys even read my post? I said they lost because Manu was getting to the rima and the Spurs were killing us on offensive rebounds AND that McDyess not knocking down shots hurt as well. In this game, McDyess had numerous 10-15 foot jumpers that are his specialty and he bricked them all. The Pistons needed his scoring in this game and he wasn't delivering. Rasheed and Rip playing better is also a huge key. But the reason McDyess stuck out so much was because he was missing those jumpers that are his bread and butter. Hopefully it was just Finals game 1 jitters.


MainEvent...
well i'll try to reason out why the refs called that offensive (Ben on Nazr)
i think it could've gone both ways.

the way Ben wallace leaned unto Nazr was crazy... he was like 45 degrees if he did it the way Manu does it (horizontal leap, close to vertical body) he'll get that call 10/10 times. but Ben decided to go shoulder first.. i guess that's why

That's a nice rationale, but the rule is that if the defender is inside the circle then it can't be a charge. Nazr was practically under the basket. Maybe it could have been a no-call, but I think there was too much contact NOT to call something. And in that situation you just can't call a charge.

[pjjrfan]

That was a big play and it certainly seemed to change the momentum towards our favor, but I think the turning point in the game came early in the game, when Horry and Parker trapped Hunter and forced a turnover that ended with a Big Dog dunk. That play energized the Spurs defensive efforts and they controlled the tempo from that point on. You could tell when the game started it looked like the Spurs had forgotten there was finals game on, and the Pistons were bringing it. But that point on, everything started falling apart for the Pistons. They brought in Arroyo and he made some mental mistakes, the calls started going against the Pistons, with Prince and Rasheed getting into foul trouble, and it just got worse for them and better for the Spurs.

[samikeyp]

Yeah, and Manu didn't flop from the little elbow Lindsay gave him?

No one is denying that Manu flopped but Ben? He is too good of a defender to do that. He went down faster than a cheerleader on prom night. "sis, boom, mmmff"

[MainEvent]

Spurs defense played great last night too. You didn't see the Pistons swing the ball around the court to the open man as much as they usually do because the Spurs did a great job of getting in the passing lanes and deflecting a lot of passes.

Prince has definitely begun to shy away from contact, not going strong to the rim the last couple of series. I don't know if his body has worn down or if he's gotten tenative because of a perceived lack of foul calls. He needs to take that ball to the rack and force the refs to make a call, similar to what Ginobil does when he drives.

[grjr]

Did you guys even read my post? I said they lost because Manu was getting to the rima and the Spurs were killing us on offensive rebounds AND that McDyess not knocking down shots hurt as well. In this game, McDyess had numerous 10-15 foot jumpers that are his specialty and he bricked them all. The Pistons needed his scoring in this game and he wasn't delivering. Rasheed and Rip playing better is also a huge key. But the reason McDyess stuck out so much was because he was missing those jumpers that are his bread and butter. Hopefully it was just Finals game 1 jitters.



That's a nice rationale, but the rule is that if the defender is inside the circle then it can't be a charge. Nazr was practically under the basket. Maybe it could have been a no-call, but I think there was too much contact NOT to call something. And in that situation you just can't call a charge.

Don't know how many times I have to post this. I think this will be the last time though.


An offensive foul should never be called if the contact is with a secondary defensive player who has established a defensive position within a designated "restricted area" near the basket for the purpose of drawing an offensive foul.

The "restricted area" for this purpose is the area bounded by an arc with a 4-foot radius measured from the middle of the basket.

EXCEPTION: Any player may be legally positioned within the "restricted area" if the offensive player receives the ball within the Lower Defensive Box.

[Wallace ²]

What is considered the lower defensive box? Lower than the last block on the key????

[NCaliSpurs]

orhe

Check my post. We both know what's going on.

[MainEvent]

I've never seen that exception before and never heard anyone talk about it before. Not sure that it applies anyway. IIRC, Ben drove from just outside the lane, maybe the baseline, so I don't know if that qualifies as the "lower defensive box" or not. My guess is that exception referring to a player that is posting a defender up, the defender already has a foot or two in the circle and the offensive player isn't allowed to just turn and knock them over on their way to the rim, even if they are inside the circle (well, anybody except Shaq, that is).

[ca®lo]

same sentiments with mia.

[Useruser666]

You can draw a charging foul even while positioned inside the restricted circle. As pointed out by other posters it depends on the position of the offensive player. If someone is coming in from outside the paint on a drive, then the basic restricted circle rule applies. But if the offensive player is right under the basket, he can commit an offensive foul. Examples of this would be, lowering a shoulder into the defender, swinging elbows, or even using the hips or lower body to knock a defender out of position.

EDIT: There can also be a foul called on use of an "off arm" of the offensive player to shield the ball from the defender by making contact with the defender's body or arms.

[grjr]

What is considered the lower defensive box? Lower than the last block on the key????

I'm not 100% sure but I believe it's anywhere below the free throw line that's within 15 feet of the basket.

[Useruser666]

Here are the official rules.

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_c.html?nav=ArticleList


BLOCK-CHARGE


A defensive player is permitted to establish a legal guarding position in the path of a dribbler regardless of his speed and distance.

A defensive player is not permitted to move into the path of an offensive play-er once he has started his shooting motion.

A defensive player must allow a moving player the distance to stop or change direction when the offensive player receives a pass outside the lower defensive box.

A defensive player must allow an alighted player the distance to land and then stop or change direction when the offensive player is outside the lower defensive box.

A defensive player is permitted to establish a legal guarding position in the path of an offensive player who receives a pass inside the lower defensive box regardless of his speed and distance.

A defensive player must allow an alighted player who receives a pass the space to land when the offensive player is inside the lower defensive box.

A defensive player must allow a moving offensive player without the ball the distance to stop or change direction.

The speed of the offensive player will determine the amount of distance a defensive player must allow.

If an offensive player causes contact with a defensive player who has estab-lished a legal position, an offensive foul shall be called and no points may be scored.

A defensive player may turn slightly to protect himself, but is never allowed to bend over and submarine an opponent.

An offensive foul should never be called if the contact is with a secondary defensive player who has established a defensive position within a designated "restricted area" near the basket for the purpose of drawing an offensive foul.

The "restricted area" for this purpose is the area bounded by an arc with a 4-foot radius measured from the middle of the basket.

EXCEPTION: Any player may be legally positioned within the "restricted area" if the offensive player receives the ball within the Lower Defensive Box.

The mere fact that contact occurs on these type of plays, or any other similar play, does not necessarily mean that a personal foul has been committed. The offi-cials must decide whether the contact is negligible and/or incidental, judging each situation separately.

[Useruser666]

http://www.nba.com/media/court2.gif

Here is basic pic of the court and the layout. It doesn't however define the term in question.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

No one is denying that Manu flopped but Ben? He is too good of a defender to do that. He went down faster than a cheerleader on prom night. "sis, boom, mmmff"

Are you implying that a good defender should get that call and a great one shouldn't? :spin

[bigbendbruisebrother]

That was a big play and it certainly seemed to change the momentum towards our favor, but I think the turning point in the game came early in the game, when Horry and Parker trapped Hunter and forced a turnover that ended with a Big Dog dunk. That play energized the Spurs defensive efforts and they controlled the tempo from that point on. You could tell when the game started it looked like the Spurs had forgotten there was finals game on, and the Pistons were bringing it. But that point on, everything started falling apart for the Pistons. They brought in Arroyo and he made some mental mistakes, the calls started going against the Pistons, with Prince and Rasheed getting into foul trouble, and it just got worse for them and better for the Spurs.

Bingo. That's the turning point right there. It took a long time for the Spurs to shake off the rust, but the Pistons couldn't put us away because of our defense. That trap and dunk changed the game.

[nkdlunch]

Are you implying that a good defender should get that call and a great one shouldn't? :spin

I think what he means is when you flop, sometimes you get the call, and sometimes you dont.

[bigbendbruisebrother]

As far as the calls in the second half, there were many questionable calls against the Spurs in the first half (Parker got mugged three times driving the lane early with no calls; that foul on Duncan when Billups fell out of bounds was bullshit too, not to mention Wallace's flop in the lane.). The Pistons didn't lose because of two calls in the second half--the Spurs won by 15 goddamn points. Now if you want to argue about whether the Pistons give up when calls don't go their way, I think you'd have an easier time making your point (game four against the Heat comes to mind). The difference between these two teams is that the Spurs continue to play hard whether or not they're getting calls. Detroit gets pissed and packs it in for the evening. Their loss (literally).

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

As far as the calls in the second half, there were many questionable calls against the Spurs in the first half (Parker got mugged three times driving the lane early with no calls; that foul on Duncan when Billups fell out of bounds was bullshit too, not to mention Wallace's flop in the lane.). The Pistons didn't lose because of two calls in the second half--the Spurs won by 15 goddamn points. Now if you want to argue about whether the Pistons give up when calls don't go their way, I think you'd have an easier time making your point (game four against the Heat comes to mind). The difference between these two teams is that the Spurs continue to play hard whether or not they're getting calls. Detroit gets pissed and packs it in for the evening. Their loss (literally).

I don't think they packed it in. I think it was a combination of having tired legs and Manu taking over. I don't think they quit...

[combs84]

Ben didn't flop, he got ran over. One of the worst calls I ever seen. A turning point? Yes. The reason we lost? No. We lost because Manu took the game over and killed us and we couldnt convert 2 foot layups. That Nazr Dunk putback was brutal as well.

[MainEvent]

Can you find one person in this thread that said they lost because of foul calls?

All anybody's said was that it was a pivotal call in the game, a momentum swing that the Pistons didn't recover from. The fact that they fell apart offensively had more to do with the Spurs defense than it did with anything else. But that call and the accompanying technical pushed the lead out to I believe it's largest point at that time and opened up the floodgates.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

I think what he means is when you flop, sometimes you get the call, and sometimes you dont.

I know, I was just messing around. The real problem that most people have with officiating is consistency. Those two flops(manu on hunter, ben on manu) were identical, yet called differently.

It happens way too much in the NBA...

[samikeyp]

Ben didn't flop, he got ran over.

By a guy 35 pounds lighter? If that is the case...he is not as tough as I thought he was.

[combs84]

Rightt, because somebody smaller then you running into you can't knock you over. You may what to rethink that. Ben obviously wasn't trying to shield himself from getting run over, which is why it was an offensive foul.

[SpursWoman]

By a guy 35 pounds lighter? If that is the case...he is not as tough as I thought he was.


That sounds something like:

"It's okay if he charged and nothing was called because the defender was bigger than him?"

A charge is a charge no matter who is taking it. It was a bad call.

[Wallace ²]

By a guy 35 pounds lighter? If that is the case...he is not as tough as I thought he was.

I believe that Hunter is in the range of 35 lbs lighter than Manu and he took of like he had rockets in his shoes. What is your point? Everybody flops and the flops should not be rewarded.

[ChumpDumper]

Are we still talking about this?

Centers can't flop at midcourt.

It was a punitive measure. I would've called it on Duncan too.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

I believe that Hunter is in the range of 35 lbs lighter than Manu and he took of like he had rockets in his shoes. What is your point? Everybody flops and the flops should not be rewarded.

Hunter is listed at 195, Manu 205...

[samikeyp]

I believe that Hunter is in the range of 35 lbs lighter than Manu and he took of like he had rockets in his shoes. What is your point? Everybody flops and the flops should not be rewarded.

That was my point...Ben Wallace shouldn't flop. I am not saying Manu should either...I posted that earlier in this thread.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Are we still talking about this?

Centers can't flop at midcourt.

It was a punitive measure. I would've called it on Duncan too.

What else we gonna talk about? How we got smoked in the 2nd half?
:drunk

[duncan_21]

I implore people to take another look at the play. If you happen to have a copy of the game you can see that it should have been a no call. Ben forced the issue by flopping.

The instant replay to me shows that ginobili starts a step THEN ben shuffles in front of manu then flopped more then roseanne riding tom arnold. If ben wouldn't have flopped for the 4th time all game there would have been no call.

[samikeyp]

That sounds something like:

"It's okay if he charged and nothing was called because the defender was bigger than him?"

A charge is a charge no matter who is taking it. It was a bad call.

not saying it wasn't a bad call...I just don't think Manu knocked him down.

[wildbill2u]

OK everybody. First off, good game for the Spurs, good 42 minutes for the Pistons. I have a question. Putting all biases and allegences aside. What did everybody think of the blocking foul that Ben took on Manu either late in the third or early in the fourth out by the 3 point line. I thought it was clearly a charge because it didnt look like Ben even moved his feet at all. I think this was the turning point. If that is called a charge the Pistons get the ball back with a chance to tie, instead the Spurs made the tech and i believe made a basket to make it a 5 point game. Basically, I just want to know if everybody saw the play the same way I did.

I seldom see a game completely turned around because of one play. I don't think the Pistons gave up at that point and said, "well, we got a bad call, so let's mail it in for the rest of the game." Do you?

And especially when the game is decided by 15 points, one play is not the deciding factor..

[samikeyp]

And especially when the game is decided by 15 points, one play is not the deciding factor..

I would agree with that also.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

I seldom see a game completely turned around because of one play. I don't think the Pistons gave up at that point and said, "well, we got a bad call, so let's mail it in for the rest of the game." Do you?

And especially when the game is decided by 15 points, one play is not the deciding factor..

Yes it can!!

-Sonics Nation, Miami Nation, PHX Nation, Nuggets Nation, 76ers Nation, Pacer Nation

[mcornelio]

i think it was a charge... but spurs still in 5

[Sense]

OK everybody. First off, good game for the Spurs, good 42 minutes for the Pistons. I have a question. Putting all biases and allegences aside. What did everybody think of the blocking foul that Ben took on Manu either late in the third or early in the fourth out by the 3 point line. I thought it was clearly a charge because it didnt look like Ben even moved his feet at all. I think this was the turning point. If that is called a charge the Pistons get the ball back with a chance to tie, instead the Spurs made the tech and i believe made a basket to make it a 5 point game. Basically, I just want to know if everybody saw the play the same way I did.

Personally I think that this shouldn't have been nor a foul, or a charge.

This is the playoffs... Ben Wallace will not get outmuscled by Manu.

They did give us a technical there...and ben should've kept his cool, but we weren't trailing at that part.

In fact it was the 3rd...the Spurs came back in the second so it was momentum.


If you knew anything about the Spurs you would know that Manu Ginobili Carries the Spurs aswell...

Just ask PHX.


That was not the turning point...the turnin point was that manu decided to do his thing...and it works.. no one can stop Manu..except himself.