Racial Demographics

[Wild Cobra]

Well, it seems the obvious answers to simple questions are unknown, or people are purposely obtuse in order to justify quota systems. I was asked in another thread:
If the playing field is level, why do minorities fare so poorly in some instances? For instance, why are they represented in jails, in poorer neighborhoods, etc etc much more than their numbers would suggest?
The short answer I immediately comes to mind is that crime rates are influenced by where we live and the character of those raising us. The past influences this a great deal, but quota systems in jobs do not address the root problems.

Here are a few things I quickly found:

http://www.nationalgangcenter.gov/Content/Images/Graphics/Graphs/gangChart_ethnicitygangmembers.jpg (http://www.nationalgangcenter.gov/Survey-Analysis/Demographics)

http://www.ojjdp.gov/pubs/96natyouthgangsrvy/images/fig_11.gif (http://www.ojjdp.gov/pubs/96natyouthgangsrvy/surv_6c.html)

Now if we go by the 2010 census, blacks make up 12.6% of the population but about 1/3rd of the gangs in the USA. That simple fact shows there is a difference in ethics, when viewed statistically. Statistics of other related items will tend to be close to such numbers.

I'm not going to do any deep research into this. The facts speak for themselves. I don't see a simple fix. How do you change a culture?

[CuckingFunt]

That simple fact shows there is a difference in ethics, when viewed statistically.

Nope. Not a bigot.

[DMX7]

You are so stupid it hurts.

[Wild Cobra]

Nope. Not a bigot.

You are so stupid it hurts.
So statistics are a form of bigotry?

How about sticking with what can be found instead of making this about me. Really, I'm flattered, but this shouldn't be about me.

[CuckingFunt]

So statistics are a form of bigotry?

Your reading of the statistics posted, with absolutely zero attempt to analyze them critically, as factual evidence that blacks are ethically inferior to whites based upon an unchangeable aspect of their culture is, absolutely, bigotry.


How about sticking with what can be found instead of making this about me. Really, I'm flattered, but this shouldn't be about me.

You are the only person here making any of this about you.

[DMX7]

70% of the world's poor people are women; therefore women are lazy and don't work hard.

Again, you are a disgusting human being and your ignorance makes me sad.

[mingus]

We as a society have devalued what it should take to raise a child. There's no accountability. People should have a license to have babies like they should have a license to use a gun. Not literally of course. All I'm saying is people need to be held accountable for what they do with their dick. And they're not.

[Wild Cobra]

Again, you are a disgusting human being and your ignorance makes me sad.
You say I am disgusting for pointing out some accepted facts?

OK. I understand. You can't handle the truth.

[Wild Cobra]

Your reading of the statistics posted, with absolutely zero attempt to analyze them critically, as factual evidence that blacks are ethically inferior to whites based upon an unchangeable aspect of their culture is, absolutely, bigotry.

You are the only person here making any of this about you.

It was a simple response to a question. Make what you wish of it. I don't care how long you wear those blinders.

[MannyIsGod]

Well, it seems the obvious answers to simple questions are unknown, or people are purposely obtuse in order to justify quota systems. I was asked in another thread:
The short answer I immediately comes to mind is that crime rates are influenced by where we live and the character of those raising us. The past influences this a great deal, but quota systems in jobs do not address the root problems.

Here are a few things I quickly found:

http://www.nationalgangcenter.gov/Content/Images/Graphics/Graphs/gangChart_ethnicitygangmembers.jpg (http://www.nationalgangcenter.gov/Survey-Analysis/Demographics)

http://www.ojjdp.gov/pubs/96natyouthgangsrvy/images/fig_11.gif (http://www.ojjdp.gov/pubs/96natyouthgangsrvy/surv_6c.html)

Now if we go by the 2010 census, blacks make up 12.6% of the population but about 1/3rd of the gangs in the USA. That simple fact shows there is a difference in ethics, when viewed statistically. Statistics of other related items will tend to be close to such numbers.

I'm not going to do any deep research into this. The facts speak for themselves. I don't see a simple fix. How do you change a culture?

:lmao

Peconcieved notions.

I guess reinforcing that you're a bigot is what you love doing in threads.

[ElNono]

It's clear that Caucasians are sniffed by drug dogs more easily since they live in clean places, not like the other bad guys...

http://shoutingthomas.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341ccad453ef0148c75b8ddf970c-800wi

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/102/291635623_c389454338.jpg

I'm not going to do any deep research into this. The facts speak for themselves.

[LnGrrrR]

Well, it seems the obvious answers to simple questions are unknown, or people are purposely obtuse in order to justify quota systems. I was asked in another thread:
The short answer I immediately comes to mind is that crime rates are influenced by where we live and the character of those raising us. The past influences this a great deal, but quota systems in jobs do not address the root problems.

Here are a few things I quickly found:

http://www.nationalgangcenter.gov/Content/Images/Graphics/Graphs/gangChart_ethnicitygangmembers.jpg (http://www.nationalgangcenter.gov/Survey-Analysis/Demographics)

http://www.ojjdp.gov/pubs/96natyouthgangsrvy/images/fig_11.gif (http://www.ojjdp.gov/pubs/96natyouthgangsrvy/surv_6c.html)

Now if we go by the 2010 census, blacks make up 12.6% of the population but about 1/3rd of the gangs in the USA. That simple fact shows there is a difference in ethics, when viewed statistically. Statistics of other related items will tend to be close to such numbers.

I'm not going to do any deep research into this. The facts speak for themselves. I don't see a simple fix. How do you change a culture?

Why do you think blacks are more likely to join gangs than other minorities? Did you ever look at data from minorities in middle to upper class neighborhoods? How about the percentage of whites who are from poor areas that commit crimes, as opposed to whites from more affluent areas?

[LnGrrrR]

It was a simple response to a question. Make what you wish of it. I don't care how long you wear those blinders.

Simple indeed.

[LnGrrrR]

And one might argue that a way to change the culture is to increase the number of minorities holding down steady jobs.

[TDMVPDPOY]

I doubt census forms has a box to tick if ur a gang member...fail

[Capt Bringdown]

You say I am disgusting for pointing out some accepted facts?

OK. I understand. You can't handle the truth.

http://api.ning.com/files/sYNtoU4hu6iCs-qsVQ40WREn680gFibRcN8kkXLlyPjuX67YHzmE82j439gtnrxz HRHBSGuK3e3UWsvhymd6SIIrNEv-lgOd/Itg_quarterly.jpg

[velik_m]

Here we are, in the 21 century and there are still people who think we have different races of humans.

You all are just a bunch of racists.

[Wild Cobra]

Why do you think blacks are more likely to join gangs than other minorities? Did you ever look at data from minorities in middle to upper class neighborhoods? How about the percentage of whites who are from poor areas that commit crimes, as opposed to whites from more affluent areas?
What is your point? I think you're agreeing with me, but don't realize it.

Yes, fewer whites live in impoverished areas than blacks. I will assume that they exhibit the same rates as blacks who are living in such areas.

As I have repeatedly said. It's not color, it's culture.

[Wild Cobra]

And one might argue that a way to change the culture is to increase the number of minorities holding down steady jobs.
Agreed, but it's a vicious circle. Unless people have an active interest to break the cycle who live it, outside influence doesn't do much.

[Wild Cobra]

I doubt census forms has a box to tick if ur a gang member...fail
I see you missed the comparison I made.

Blacks make up about 33% of the gangs, but the 2010 census shows that blacks make up about 12.6% of the population.

One of those two links I posted shows blacks at 4 times the gang rate as whites.

[Creepn]

Look what I found on the net!

http://i55.tinypic.com/16kcoxy.jpg

[mingus]

black culture has in alot of ways been chaped by whites too though, esp through the media most recetnyl.

[scott]

Christians are 37 times more likely to be incarcerated in their lifetimes than atheists.

I'm not going to do any deep research into this. The facts speak for themselves. I don't see a simple fix. How do you change a culture?

[Blake]

What if...

What if we changed the laws so that anyone joining a gang that didn't have a proper financial future could be subject to legal recourse?

[resistanze]

http://www.ojjdp.gov/pubs/96natyouthgangsrvy/images/fig_11.gif (http://www.ojjdp.gov/pubs/96natyouthgangsrvy/surv_6c.html)


Obviously, there's so many Latinos and Blacks in gangs due to affirmative action. Just look at the numbers for the good minority, Asians.

I personally wouldn't trust the qualifications of black gang member to kill me in a drive-by.

[Agloco]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2115/2399545998_4f79505f6d.jpg

[Wild Cobra]

I'm only digging myself a hole against consensus. As you are fully aware, consensus is not necessarily fact.

[Creepn]

I don't understand how you ask how to change black culture when it comes to gangs when there are other races in that graph as well. You should've asked how we as Americans can solve the gang problems since it affects all the races. But no, you make a beeline straight towards the opportunity to attack black people.

I think you totally missed the point of the graph and only used it to strengthen your bias.

[Wild Cobra]

I don't understand how you ask how to change black culture when it comes to gangs when there are other races in that graph as well. You should've asked how we as Americans can solve the gang problems since it affects all the races. But no, you make a beeline straight towards the opportunity to attack black people.

I think you totally missed the point of the graph and only used it to strengthen your bias.
I was explaining an earlier topic. I agree, we need to solve it all, but how?

What is the point you think I missed?

[Creepn]

Well, we gotta look at the reasons why kids join gangs. One reason would be for them to feel part of a family. They are looking for love in the wrong places so maybe create a more active organization like big brothers/sisters to go after (i mean actually pursue) these kids and give them what they are missing: a role model.

[Wild Cobra]

Well, we gotta look at the reasons why kids join gangs. One reason would be for them to feel part of a family. They are looking for love in the wrong places so maybe create a more active organization like big brothers/sisters to go after (i mean actually pursue) these kids and give them what they are missing: a role model.

That's why I use the term "culture." I say these traits have nothing to do with race, but the living conditions, peers growing up, etc. We have acquired values rather than inherited ones. Here is the definition of culture (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/culture) I apply:


5 b : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group; also : the characteristic features of everyday existence (as diversions or a way of life} shared by people in a place or time <popular culture> <southern culture>

The formative years are already past before organizations intervention can do any good.

[Creepn]

Cobra stop. You and I know very well that the underlying basis of your very first topic of this thread was to talk about blacks and their gang affiliations. You did not mean to ask "how can we change this part of American culture". Since you went on to talk about how blacks have different ethics, you wanted to know how we can change that part of black culture.

Thing is, it's not even about ethics. Black parents don't make it a goal to create little gangsters so that they will be ready to lead a gang when they get older. It's all about choices and the choices that they are presented in the poor circumstances that they are in.

[Wild Cobra]

Cobra stop. You and I know very well that the underlying basis of your very first topic of this thread was to talk about blacks and their gang affiliations. You did not mean to ask "how can we change this part of American culture". Since you went on to talk about how blacks have different ethics, you wanted to know how we can change that part of black culture.

Thing is, it's not even about ethics. It's all about choices and the choices that they are presented in the poor circumstances that they are in.
That's right. Take your position based on the idea you know what I believe more than I do.

Maybe you should consider what I say instead of thinking inside that PC box they gave you in school.

[Creepn]

I'm not even trying to attack you. As you can see by the responses you got, the majority think you are being bias and trying to use these graphs to reinforce your way of thinking by what you said.

It did not at all seem you wanted to know how to fix a problem that plagued American culture.

[Capt Bringdown]

Maybe you should consider what I say instead of thinking inside that PC box they gave you in school.

LOL, talk about school, do you really think your pointy-headed "how do you change a culture" notions are anything new?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_wXiFk87LtR0/TQfUaaKuWUI/AAAAAAAAAOw/CKWwOlPlXIs/s1600/%2527Pear%2527s%2BSoap%2527%2Badvertisement%2B-%2Bthe%2BWhite%2BMan%2527s%2BBurden.jpg

[scott]

One way we could change black culture and prevent future gang participation would be to defund education and community programs. That'll teach 'em.

[rascal]

Agreed, but it's a vicious circle. Unless people have an active interest to break the cycle who live it, outside influence doesn't do much.

It's about education levels. Blacks lag far behind whites in education levels so therefore they will lag behind in income levels. Also there is a high rate of blacks being raised by single mothers.

[rascal]

Well, we gotta look at the reasons why kids join gangs. One reason would be for them to feel part of a family. They are looking for love in the wrong places so maybe create a more active organization like big brothers/sisters to go after (i mean actually pursue) these kids and give them what they are missing: a role model.

The reason is many come from broken homes/ many don't have high levels of education so fewer options for good paying future jobs. Joining gangs is an attractive option when you don't have much hope for a good future to some.

[coyotes_geek]

This thread = http://oi56.tinypic.com/qqvol0.jpg

[rjv]

isn't reading a thread about race (or sociology) started by WC the equivalent to reading a cookbook from chef boyardee ?

[Winehole23]

http://ech.case.edu/ech-cgi/article.pl?id=BH10

[Oh, Gee!!]

ain't nothing wrong with Chef Boy-ar-dee.

[LnGrrrR]

WC, perhaps you should have titled the thread "poor community demographics" if you didnt want it to be specific to race.

That said, while you may disagree with affirmative action, do you agree it could possibly lead to more minorities getting good jobs, thereby lifting them out of these poorer neighborhoods?

[Wild Cobra]

WC, perhaps you should have titled the thread "poor community demographics" if you didnt want it to be specific to race.
Well, I did start the thread in response to your statement. Kinda late now.

That said, while you may disagree with affirmative action, do you agree it could possibly lead to more minorities getting good jobs, thereby lifting them out of these poorer neighborhoods?
It's not affirmative action I disagree with, but the quota system part of it.

[Blake]

ain't nothing wrong with Chef Boy-ar-dee.

not much right with canned meat & pasta pumped full of sodium either

[Oh, Gee!!]

OMG!!! 35% of all black people are in gangs!!!!

[Wild Cobra]

OMG!!! 35% of all black people are in gangs!!!!
Maybe you should read that carefully.

[Blake]

Maybe you should read that carefully.

do you think it's possible that there are gangs of Black surgeons?

[ElNono]

do you think it's possible that there are gangs of Black surgeons?

:rollin

[ElNono]

Cobra, you admitted (more than once, IIRC) to have done drugs. Did the society around you, or the way you were raised made you do that?

[Winehole23]

black culture has in alot of ways been chaped by whites too though, esp through the media most recetnyl.
Long live our media masters.

[Oh, Gee!!]

do you think it's possible that there are gangs of Black surgeons?

35% of black surgeons cannot read or write.

[LnGrrrR]

It's not affirmative action I disagree with, but the quota system part of it.

Do you agree or disagree that the quota system may have the intended effect of allowing greater number of minorities to rise above the cycle of poverty? (Not talking about the morality of quota systems, just about their effectiveness.)

[Winehole23]

ain't nothing wrong with Chef Boy-ar-dee.I like the lasagna in a can. I think I always will.

[Wild Cobra]

Do you agree or disagree that the quota system may have the intended effect of allowing greater number of minorities to rise above the cycle of poverty? (Not talking about the morality of quota systems, just about their effectiveness.)
I think it would be safe to assume some have. I still would argue the harm outweighs the good though.

[MannyIsGod]

That's why I use the term "culture." I say these traits have nothing to do with race, but the living conditions, peers growing up, etc. We have acquired values rather than inherited ones. Here is the definition of culture (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/culture) I apply:



The formative years are already past before organizations intervention can do any good.


Um, do you read your own posts?

[LnGrrrR]

I think it would be safe to assume some have. I still would argue the harm outweighs the good though.

Can you think of a more equitable way to go about this? For instance, you've already stated that this is due to the culture of where they grow up, so it's not necessarily the individual's fault. (Or at the least, they are at a disadvantage.)

Would you agree with quota systems not for race, but for those who grew up in less-financially stable areas?

[Wild Cobra]

Can you think of a more equitable way to go about this? For instance, you've already stated that this is due to the culture of where they grow up, so it's not necessarily the individual's fault. (Or at the least, they are at a disadvantage.)
What ever the working solution is, it has to be done at the root level. To banage it at the cost of other is morally wrong.

Would you agree with quota systems not for race, but for those who grew up in less-financially stable areas?

No quota systems. Help the individuals who need it, but not at the expense of others. Any slots allocated need to be done without bias.

[FromWayDowntown]

Suppose that school funding is one step toward a solution. If we increase funding to public schools in areas of high black, er, low income populations, aren't we doing that at the expense of others?

[Wild Cobra]

Suppose that school funding is one step toward a solution. If we increase funding to public schools in areas of high black, er, low income populations, aren't we doing that at the expense of others?
They've done that here in Oregon with little to no success. The problems are instilled in our youth before they are in school.

I won't pretend to have a solution, but I know it's not by taking away from others. It's just causing resentment to continue.

[ElNono]

Talking about Oregon... Good read and some actual figures that paint the picture why leveling the playing field is key:

http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2011/05/is_colorblindness_crippling_or.html

Warning, just an oped piece.

[TeyshaBlue]

What ever the working solution is, it has to be done at the root level. To banage it at the cost of other is morally wrong.

No quota systems. Help the individuals who need it, but not at the expense of others. Any slots allocated need to be done without bias.

Newsflash. Any targeted "help" comes at the expense of others. It's a short term expense for a long term gain. This is not rocket surgery.

[CuckingFunt]

So, admittedly, I've gotten somewhat lost in the fog of Cobra's "logic." Has there, at any point in all of this, been an example of a specific quota system currently in place? Or evidence provided of how Affirmative Action has changed over time to allow for/encourage quota systems?

[TeyshaBlue]

Of course not.

[CuckingFunt]

Of course not.

Okay. Just wanted to make sure I hadn't missed something.

[Trainwreck2100]

Suppose that school funding is one step toward a solution. If we increase funding to public schools in areas of high black, er, low income populations, aren't we doing that at the expense of others?

They had that here in tx and the richers sued

[TeyshaBlue]

They had that here in tx and the richers sued

Different scenario. It was a simple funding grab with no targeting/performance metrics whatsoever.

[Winehole23]

So, admittedly, I've gotten somewhat lost in the fog of Cobra's "logic." Has there, at any point in all of this, been an example of a specific quota system currently in place? Or evidence provided of how Affirmative Action has changed over time to allow for/encourage quota systems?I think WC's pissed off in general about quotas and considers that authoritative.

[Winehole23]

btw, I'm sure there's some remark by WC elsewhere on ST that settles it for all time. Unfortunately WC does not remember it and you're apparently too lazy to find it yourself.

Please catch up.

[Blake]

Of course not.


Okay. Just wanted to make sure I hadn't missed something.

If I ever had enough motivation, I might dig up WC's 10 best hypocritical/contradictory posts.

Problem is that as soon as I might come up with 10, there might be 3-4 new and better ones that day that would make the list instantly obsolete.

[LnGrrrR]

What ever the working solution is, it has to be done at the root level. To banage it at the cost of other is morally wrong.

Isn't it a bit strange to enslave a group of people for hundreds of years, then allow them equal rights and assume that all is fair 30/40 years later? Don't you think the decades of oppression and inequality might have caused conditions that can't be cured in 30/40 years of equal rights?


No quota systems. Help the individuals who need it, but not at the expense of others. Any slots allocated need to be done without bias.

Let me pose a hypothetical for you. Say a great deal of business owners are racist in a certain area. A great number of minorities are either denied jobs outright, or are making reduced wages compared to white counterparts.

Given this situation, what actions can the minority community undertake to remedy their situation? I only see four options.

1) Create their own business.
Obviously, this is not a perfect solution. Even if they create a business, the racists who own companies may not work with them, or force them to buy supplies at elevated rates.

2) Take it to the courts.
This has been tried with limited success in our time. However, it sets a precedent whereby owners don't have full control over who they hire, which I doubt you'd support.

3) Take it to the legislature.
This would most likely result in the "quota" system as defined above.

4) Relocate.
People can move from the states they are in, but that does nothing to remedy the actual injustice, nor is it a feasible solution for poorer families.


Do you see an option I don't?

[Wild Cobra]

Talking about Oregon... Good read and some actual figures that paint the picture why leveling the playing field is key:

http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2011/05/is_colorblindness_crippling_or.html

Warning, just an oped piece.
Notice that the article acknowledges the poor students are not starting on a level playing field. It has to be leveled in their communities. They start at a disadvantage in the schools and end that way too.
Poor. Parents poor. Relatives poor. Fragmented family structure. Chaotic unstructured home life. Little or no assistance with school work. Little or no support and encouragement. Witness to consistent drama (not just on TV). Traumatic experiences. Fear and confusion. Lack of trust. Desire to escape. Feelings of despair, hopelessness. This is the parents responsibility. How is society suppose to contend with poorly raised children.

[Wild Cobra]

Newsflash. Any targeted "help" comes at the expense of others. It's a short term expense for a long term gain. This is not rocket surgery.
If done at the root level of the problem, I agree. Otherwise it's just an endless cycle. problem is, we are not fixing the root problems.

[Wild Cobra]

Isn't it a bit strange to enslave a group of people for hundreds of years, then allow them equal rights and assume that all is fair 30/40 years later? Don't you think the decades of oppression and inequality might have caused conditions that can't be cured in 30/40 years of equal rights?

The problem is the mindset of too many blacks. They limit themselves by blaming the whites for crimes of our ancestors. It's easier to say it's our fault than standing up on their own two feet and attempt to succeed.

They need to live for the present and future. Not the past. As long as they live in the past, they will remain poor.


Let me pose a hypothetical for you. Say a great deal of business owners are racist in a certain area. A great number of minorities are either denied jobs outright, or are making reduced wages compared to white counterparts.

Given this situation, what actions can the minority community undertake to remedy their situation? I only see four options.

1) Create their own business.
Obviously, this is not a perfect solution. Even if they create a business, the racists who own companies may not work with them, or force them to buy supplies at elevated rates.

2) Take it to the courts.
This has been tried with limited success in our time. However, it sets a precedent whereby owners don't have full control over who they hire, which I doubt you'd support.

3) Take it to the legislature.
This would most likely result in the "quota" system as defined above.

4) Relocate.
People can move from the states they are in, but that does nothing to remedy the actual injustice, nor is it a feasible solution for poorer families.


Do you see an option I don't?

LOL...

I just pointed out the problem is living in the past, and you bring this up.

These problems of the past are fixed. Move on.

[Borat Sagyidev]

WC you do realize that you're a moron right?

Do you have any idea what black people have been through? I'm not talking white washed history, actually thought about how screwed up your life would be in the same situation. Yeah it's better now, but the crap done in the past is just pure evil. To deny that problem still exist for a large pat from the racism and evil from white people is just plain stupid.

Take any group of white kids, kidnap them from their parents young, don't educate them, overwork them and kill off the mentally strong ones generation after generation and tell me what you'll get. Do you think an affirmative action "financial aid package" for 20k will make it all better?

Give me a break. It's the parents fault? Yeah, you know why, the parents have been affected by racist white people, generation after generation.

Same story with Latinos, and Native Americans in this country. Latinos who fought with Texans and Americans against mexico where only driven off their promised land in racial prejudice. Of course they were invited back to work in the fields for pennies, what a deal.

Native Americans can't even develop on their reservations because the racist white man legacy BIA won't let them do anything outside of a casino.

Meanwhile, redneck trash in TX and across the country are profiting off mineral rights from stolen native american land and ensuring their kids never have to pull themselves up from their bootstraps. That money keeps circling in a nice nepotism network.

Of course white kids have several disadvantages too, I am an orphaned white child, but even I recognize I have it better. And If it wasn't for scary "socialist" programs I'd be cutting your neck rather than saving this countries neck.

But hey, you know better since you spend all day in internet forums.

[Borat Sagyidev]

And to all the "statistics" hounds claiming this and that here is a term you should learn "Correlation does not imply causation". It's pretty well versed.



]

Now if we go by the 2010 census, blacks make up 12.6% of the population but about 1/3rd of the gangs in the USA. That simple fact shows there is a difference in ethics, when viewed statistically. Statistics of other related items will tend to be close to such numbers.

I'm not going to do any deep research into this. The facts speak for themselves. I don't see a simple fix. How do you change a culture?

No wanna-be Hitler. It doesn't speak for itself. I could show similar data that relates ice cream sales and violent crime. You need the full picture which by a long shot you don't have.

[ElNono]

Notice that the article acknowledges the poor students are not starting on a level playing field. It has to be leveled in their communities. They start at a disadvantage in the schools and end that way too.

That's exactly the point. If they would have a level playing field, they wouldn't need the assistance. And if they're not ending well, then that's nothing but an indicator that the playing field is not leveled enough.


This is the parents responsibility. How is society suppose to contend with poorly raised children.

I don't know what magical world you live in. In the real world there's actual socioeconomic constrains on the parents (as clearly pointed out in that article) that prevent them from providing the care and attention their kids need. It can hardly be the parent's fault when they have to break their back working many hours to just put food on the table. On the other hand, the kid shouldn't be penalized because he was born in the poor side of town. Heck, it's not the kid's fault even if the parents turn out to be assholes and drunkards.

Society contends with it in the same way it contends with racist ignorant authoritarians like yourself. It tries to give everybody the same opportunity to be the best they can be. Some turn out ok, and then some end up like you.

[ElNono]

The problem is the mindset of too many blacks.

You think the majority of blacks fit that description?

[Wild Cobra]

I don't know what magical world you live in. In the real world there's actual socioeconomic constrains on the parents (as clearly pointed out in that article) that prevent them from providing the care and attention their kids need.

How does that affect morality and initiative?

It can hardly be the parent's fault when they have to break their back working many hours to just put food on the table.
If they actually work, the kids learn some work ethics.
On the other hand, the kid shouldn't be penalized because he was born in the poor side of town.
Financially poor does not also have to mean poor or moral judgment.

Heck, it's not the kid's fault even if the parents turn out to be assholes and drunkards.

No it's not. Are you advocating we take the kids away from such parents?


Society contends with it in the same way it contends with racist ignorant authoritarians like yourself. It tries to give everybody the same opportunity to be the best they can be. Some turn out ok, and then some end up like you.

I'm all for the same opportunity. that's why I dislike quota systems.

[Wild Cobra]

You think the majority of blacks fit that description?
I think too many black parents teach their children that they will never amount to anything because of white prejudice.

There is no level playing filed if they believe their parents. They start at a disadvantage, and remain as such throughout life. Simply because their parents taught them they wouldn't amount to anything. Why try to accel if you believe it has no reward?

[CuckingFunt]

Oh, I just lurve the argument that ethnic minorities are the agents of their own oppression.

[ElNono]

How does that affect morality and initiative?

Who says morality and initiative are the problem? That's a connection that you've never made, other than in your preconceived notions.

Furthermore, morality is a VERY, and I mean VERY loose term. Who's the moral police and who gave them authority?


Financially poor does not also have to mean poor or moral judgment.

It can happen to be both. You're a prime example. You still haven't made the connection that has anything to do with race though. There's crooks from all races and all economic levels, as we've seen for a while now.


No it's not. Are you advocating we take the kids away from such parents?

No. I don't know where you get that idea from my post. The solution to that problem is to help the kid more outside that environment by leveling the playing field with those that didn't have to go trough those problems.


I'm all for the same opportunity. that's why I dislike quota systems.

It's not the same opportunity if the socioeconomic backgrounds is different. That's exactly what programs like affirmative action target. A quota system doesn't mean that the person taking advantage of the quota is any less smart or qualified. They simply didn't get a fair shot at it like everyone else because of social and economic constrains that were not their fault to begin with, so society tries to adjust and make up for that so everybody gets the same opportunity (especially on limited, sought after position).

[ElNono]

I think too many black parents teach their children that they will never amount to anything because of white prejudice.


And you reached this conclusion based on what exactly?

[Wild Cobra]

Oh, I just lurve the argument that ethnic minorities are the agents of their own oppression.
They are for the most part.

How can people live a dream if they don't have one to strive for?

[Wild Cobra]

And you reached this conclusion based on what exactly?
Dud...

I live in Portland. I see what that editorial is about.

[ElNono]

Dud...

I live in Portland. I see what that editorial is about.

You didn't answer the question (which didn't have anything to do with the editorial). Answer the question.

[CuckingFunt]

They are for the most part.

How can people live a dream if they don't have one to strive for?

You know what, WC, I'll concede that I don't know you well enough to make judgments about your character as a human being based solely on what you post here. It is very true that you may not in fact be a bigot.

But damn have you got the playbook memorized.

[Wild Cobra]

Who says morality and initiative are the problem? That's a connection that you've never made, other than in your preconceived notions.

Statistics imply that if the kids had the initiative to learn, they would. If they had morals, they wouldn't be in gangs by the percentages they are.


Furthermore, morality is a VERY, and I mean VERY loose term. Who's the moral police and who gave them authority?

Are you familiar with the violent crime statistics, by race?


It can happen to be both. You're a prime example. You still haven't made the connection that has anything to do with race though. There's crooks from all races and all economic levels, as we've seen for a while now.

Yes, there are crooks as you say. However, who is the largest perpetrator of violent crimes?


No. I don't know where you get that idea from my post. The solution to that problem is to help the kid more outside that environment by leveling the playing field with those that didn't have to go trough those problems.

The best solution I have to solve this problem at the root level is to make all possible effort to teach parents what affects their prejudices have on their childrens future.


It's not the same opportunity if the socioeconomic backgrounds is different.
Agreed. However, the socioeconomic background is a factor that we all grow up in and foster learning and skills. If people are disadvantaged by their environment, why should others have to step back who are more qualified to make room for them?

That's exactly what programs like affirmative action target.
If you mean the original intent of affirmative action, I agree.

A quota system doesn't mean that the person taking advantage of the quota is any less smart or qualified.

Yet court cases have proven otherwise.


They simply didn't get a fair shot at it like everyone else because of social and economic constrains that were not their fault to begin with, so society tries to adjust and make up for that so everybody gets the same opportunity (especially on limited, sought after position).

So....

If my parents never taught me how to drive, should I be given a license anyway, because I was disadvantaged?

[ChumpDumper]

I think:lol

[Wild Cobra]

You know what, WC, I'll concede that I don't know you well enough to make judgments about your character as a human being based solely on what you post here. It is very true that you may not in fact be a bigot.

But damn have you got the playbook memorized.
Yes, I understand.

Not being afraid of the Political Correct Police means being called a Bigot.

[ElNono]

Statistics imply that if the kids had the initiative to learn, they would. If they had morals, they wouldn't be in gangs by the percentages they are.

You didn't show any statistics that measure such a thing as 'initiative to learn'. I even doubt you can measure that in any reasonable, scientific way.

Using Gang membership statistics to quantify an abstract like 'initiative to learn' really says a lot more about your own intelligence than racial initiative.


Are you familiar with the violent crime statistics, by race?

Yes, there are crooks as you say. However, who is the largest perpetrator of violent crimes?

Why do you want to limit it to violent crimes only? Non-violent crimes are a crime too. Reach much?


The best solution I have to solve this problem at the root level is to make all possible effort to teach parents what affects their prejudices have on their childrens future.

Their parents are too busy working for pennies to put food on the table. Also, how do you propose to teach them that? What are you proactively doing to teach such lessons?


Agreed. However, the socioeconomic background is a factor that we all grow up in and foster learning and skills. If people are disadvantaged by their environment, why should others have to step back who are more qualified to make room for them?

Nobody has to step back. They still have to go through the same amount of work and tests as any other person. They simply get an opportunity at a shot, not guaranteed success at the expense of another person.


If you mean the original intent of affirmative action, I agree.
Yet court cases have proven otherwise.
So....
If my parents never taught me how to drive, should I be given a license anyway, because I was disadvantaged?

That's not how it works. You're either dumb or purposely disingenuous.
You would be given an opportunity to earn your driver's license taking a driver's test. Equal opportunity doesn't guarantee success.
And it would only be right that because your poor parents could never afford a vehicle, you can still have an opportunity to learn how to drive an acquire a license.

[CuckingFunt]

Yes, I understand.

Not by a long shot.

[LnGrrrR]

The problem is the mindset of too many blacks. They limit themselves by blaming the whites for crimes of our ancestors. It's easier to say it's our fault than standing up on their own two feet and attempt to succeed.

That didn't answer my question.

Do you think it's fair to enslave a people for centuries, and expect them to be on equal footing 40 years after civil rights laws were passed?


LOL...

I just pointed out the problem is living in the past, and you bring this up.

These problems of the past are fixed. Move on.

I'm using it as a hypothetical. Surely, you can answer a hypothetical to better illuminate your viewpoint on what the "correct" course of action should be in said case?

[LnGrrrR]

I think too many black parents teach their children that they will never amount to anything because of white prejudice.

As you have asked others, so I will ask you...

Do you have any proof for this?

[Wild Cobra]

As you have asked others, so I will ask you...

Do you have any proof for this?
How can I prove what I see for myself?

[Wild Cobra]

Do you think it's fair to enslave a people for centuries, and expect them to be on equal footing 40 years after civil rights laws were passed?
Life isn't fair. Funny how so many people from other cultures, live a poor life, but have their children accel. Could it be they instill good life values in their children and teach them that they can achieve if they try?

I'm using it as a hypothetical. Surely, you can answer a hypothetical to better illuminate your viewpoint on what the "correct" course of action should be in said case?
My answer would probably be the same. Get past resentment and move on. Stop blaming others for your the inability to succeed.

We need to fix the problem in children in the formative years. After that, it's too late.

Do you guys even attempt to understand my viewpoint, or are you going to ask endless stupid questions?

[TeyshaBlue]

How can I prove what I see for myself?

Especially difficult when you see what you want to see.

[Wild Cobra]

Especially difficult when you see what you want to see.
Are you telling me that all black parents don't tell their kids that white will keep them down any more?

Can you prove that?

I didn't think so.

[ElNono]

Are you telling me that some black parents don't tell their kids that white will keep them down any more?

Are you a black parent?

[ElNono]

Can you prove that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

It even suits you well :lol

[TeyshaBlue]

Are you telling me that some black parents don't tell their kids that white will keep them down any more?

Can you prove that?

I didn't think so.

Are you telling me you have any proof whatsoever to back up your asinine assumptions? Didn't think so.

[TeyshaBlue]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

It even suits you well :lol

No shit.:lol

[Creepn]

I think too many black parents teach their children that they will never amount to anything because of white prejudice.


Are you fucking kidding me? If that was the case then the civil rights movements would've never taken place. You tell everybody to stop living in the past but yet you still do. Trust me, talking about "The Man" is old shit. Died out with our great grandmothers. I doubt most of the black kids would even know what that means unless they came across old ass civil rights figureheads that used to be in the media back in the day.

I figured you out. You think that black parents think that their kids have no chance to succeed because in the end "The Man" will always turn them away based on skin color. So instead of teaching them about education, they make them listen to gangsta rap so that when they get older they can join a gang, get high ranking, and bring home the big dollars by selling drugs, even though it means that they will outlive their kids or never see them again because they are incarcerated.

That is the ethics you believe that black parents instill in their kids right?

[Creepn]

How do you explain the slow but steady rise of black college graduates as we progress to equality as a nation? The numbers are still low altogether but the trend is still going up. The trend started around the late 90's. What's the answer for that?

[LnGrrrR]

How can I prove what I see for myself?

So no then.

[LnGrrrR]

Life isn't fair. Funny how so many people from other cultures, live a poor life, but have their children accel. Could it be they instill good life values in their children and teach them that they can achieve if they try?

My answer would probably be the same. Get past resentment and move on. Stop blaming others for your the inability to succeed.

We need to fix the problem in children in the formative years. After that, it's too late.

Do you guys even attempt to understand my viewpoint, or are you going to ask endless stupid questions?

I know you know you're losing when you start insulting people. It's a subconscious tell.

[LnGrrrR]

Are you telling me that some black parents don't tell their kids that white will keep them down any more?

Can you prove that?

I didn't think so.

I haven't seen that in my personal experience. Why should I have to prove it if you dont?

[LnGrrrR]

How do you explain the slow but steady rise of black college graduates as we progress to equality as a nation? The numbers are still low altogether but the trend is still going up. The trend started around the late 90's. What's the answer for that?

Quotas!!!!!

[MannyIsGod]

How can I prove what I see for myself?

Anecdotes aren't proof which is why you can't proove what you "see for yourself". Dumbass.

[Creepn]

This guy is the worse type. The guy who memorizes made up fucking stats and numbers and believe them to be facts of life. Being armed with all these fucking made up numbers to back up other made up numbers, he could present his case as if he's a very knowledgeable person to some impressionable young minds.

[Creepn]

Are you telling me that some black parents don't tell their kids that white will keep them down any more?


YEEEEEESS YES YES YES YES YES YES!! YES YES!!!

Get it through your thick head!!

[ElNono]

This guy is the worse type. The guy who memorizes made up fucking stats and numbers and believe them to be facts of life. Being armed with all these fucking made up numbers to back up other made up numbers, he could present his case as if he's a very knowledgeable person to some impressionable young minds.

It's worse actually. It's attempting to use gang racial makeup numbers to infer what black parents tell they children on a general basis.

Asinine doesn't begin to describe it. Then again, we're talking about an out and out racist.

[ElNono]

What actually bothers me though is not his ignorance (it's not a crime to be dumb), but the badmouthing of a state which happens to have one of the most beautiful cities I've had the pleasure to live in.

[CuckingFunt]

Do you guys even attempt to understand my viewpoint, or are you going to ask endless stupid questions?

Um...

You realize, of course, that the vast majority of the endless questions are being asked in an attempt to better understand your viewpoint.

[CuckingFunt]

How do you explain the slow but steady rise of black college graduates as we progress to equality as a nation?

Before I advance to the next page, I'm going to guess WC explains this trend by citing quota systems.

[CuckingFunt]

I know you know you're losing when you start insulting people. It's a subconscious tell.


Go fuck yourself cunt.

I wonder.

What type of evil bitch are you?

[Creepn]

Honestly his sexist "women are lazy" mentality offends me more. And this guy has daughters? Do you tell your daughters your viewpoints of women? Do they know you are calling females "cunts" on here?

[Wild Cobra]

YEEEEEESS YES YES YES YES YES YES!! YES YES!!!

Get it through your thick head!!
Changed my mistake of "some" to "all."

Too many parentd do tell their kids they don't have a future.

[LnGrrrR]

Changed my mistake of "some" to "all."

Too many parentd do tell their kids they don't have a future.

What percentage, would you say? And since you say this is from personal experience, how many children have told you their parents said they don't have a future? Or perhaps you heard it from the parents directly? Just curious.

[Oh, Gee!!]

I don't like most black people. There are very few who I have met that grew up in a cultural setting I have any respect for. Most I have met are out right thugs, and lack integrity. I could say I don't like black people, but there are some exceptions. If I based all my decisions on statistics, I would stay clear of blacks.


Unadulterated WC kind of speaks for itself, don't it?

[Oh, Gee!!]

point of thread=I don't like black people and any statistic, anecdote, op-ed, or rumor I hear will only confirm my suspicions of all black people.

[MannyIsGod]

Changed my mistake of "some" to "all."

Too many parentd do tell their kids they don't have a future.

Quantify that asshole. How many is too many and how many do it? Where is your sourced data?

Let me show you how to quantify things. Wild Cobra has been an internet stalker one time which is one too many times. I obtained my data from the Spurstalk Political Forum and Wild Cobra is my source.

[Wild Cobra]

What percentage, would you say? And since you say this is from personal experience, how many children have told you their parents said they don't have a future? Or perhaps you heard it from the parents directly? Just curious.
I hear this is conversation with blacks I know.

Are you ignorant to the cycle of despair?

[MannyIsGod]

Yes - we're all ignorant. Explain it to us.

[Wild Cobra]

Yes - we're all ignorant. Explain it to us.
I think it's a willing ignorance to the root cause. Nobody wants to talk about it. It's not politically correct. If we never face the reality, the problem will never be solved.

[Wild Cobra]

Tell me then.

Why does poverty affect learning?

Why does poverty affect morality?

We see this in society. Why does it happen?

[MannyIsGod]

I think it's a willing ignorance to the root cause. Nobody wants to talk about it. It's not politically correct. If we never face the reality, the problem will never be solved.

So then explain it to us. Talk about it.

[MannyIsGod]

Tell me then.

Why does poverty affect learning?

Why does poverty affect morality?

We see this in society. Why does it happen?

I don't know - explain it.

[Wild Cobra]

I don't know - explain it.
You ignore my explanation, but cannot tell me one that is better?

[MannyIsGod]

You haven't explained shit. Providing a conclusion that is supported by no data and no logic and spouting off anecdotes isn't an explanation. Provide us with a reasonable explanation with data showing how you actually came to that conclusion.

[Wild Cobra]

You haven't explained shit. Providing a conclusion that is supported by no data and no logic and spouting off anecdotes isn't an explanation. Provide us with a reasonable explanation with data showing how you actually came to that conclusion.
Then tell me an alternate reason. You refuse to consider my explanations so give me one. If you are going to be so closed minded, then what do you believe?

Why do those who grow up in poor cultures of America have poor grades and more involved in gang activity?

These poor cultures are primarily minorities. Right?

[TeyshaBlue]

Then tell me an alternate reason. You refuse to consider my explanations so give me one. If you are going to be so closed minded, then what do you believe?

Why do those who grow up in poor cultures of America have poor grades and more involved in gang activity?

These poor cultures are primarily minorities. Right?

Cultures are neither poor nor rich. People from a particular culture be both. Your logic, such as it is, is incredibly faulty.

[FromWayDowntown]

Cultures are neither poor nor rich. People from a particular culture be both. Your logic, such as it is, is incredibly faulty.

Indeed. For example, David Robinson's parents obviously told him he could never amount to anything (because he's black, of course), thus explaining his lack of academic achievement and professional success -- and his choice to instill that belief in the mostly-minority students from low income families who thrive (despite their flawed moral upbringing) at his extremely well-funded school.

[Wild Cobra]

Cultures are neither poor nor rich. People from a particular culture be both. Your logic, such as it is, is incredibly faulty.
You are using too tight of a definition of culture.

If you prefer I use a better word, what is it?

[TeyshaBlue]

You are using too tight of a definition of culture.

If you prefer I use a better word, what is it?

No I'm not. You are, apparently, choosing the wrong term. Since I am unable to grok your argument, I can't recommend a better term. It's likely that it doesn't exist ouside of your mind.

[Wild Cobra]

No I'm not. You are, apparently, choosing the wrong term. Since I am unable to grok your argument, I can't recommend a better term. It's likely that it doesn't exist ouside of your mind.
In post 31:

That's why I use the term "culture." I say these traits have nothing to do with race, but the living conditions, peers growing up, etc. We have acquired values rather than inherited ones. Here is the definition of culture (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/culture) I apply:


5 b : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group; also : the characteristic features of everyday existence (as diversions or a way of life} shared by people in a place or time <popular culture> <southern culture>

[Wild Cobra]

No I'm not. You are, apparently, choosing the wrong term. Since I am unable to grok your argument, I can't recommend a better term. It's likely that it doesn't exist ouside of your mind.
LOL...

A better term doesn't exist and you won't accept mine...

Really!

[TeyshaBlue]

I categorically destroyed your premise that certain cultures preclude success. Apparently you thought I was using too tight of a definition. I wasnt. Your premise is flawed. Find another descriptor because culture doesn't work in your argument.

[ChumpDumper]

I would have to see Wild Cobra having an in depth discussion about culture with a black person to believe it.

[Wild Cobra]

I categorically destroyed your premise that certain cultures preclude success. Apparently you thought I was using too tight of a definition. I wasnt. Your premise is flawed. Find another descriptor because culture doesn't work in your argument.

Excuses excuses.

[LnGrrrR]

I hear this is conversation with blacks I know

How many blacks do you know? And are these conversations coming from blacks that you know personally, like friends or family? Or blacks you hear talking about this on TV? If you know them, do you try to change their mind/give them resources to look at when they say there's no way out of the ghetto?

[Wild Cobra]

How many blacks do you know? And are these conversations coming from blacks that you know personally, like friends or family? Or blacks you hear talking about this on TV? If you know them, do you try to change their mind/give them resources to look at when they say there's no way out of the ghetto?
There are a half dozen I hang out with on occasion. They tell me if the inner city problems they escaped.

Nobody ever said there's no way out. It's difficult, and you have to lose the defeatist attitude.

[TeyshaBlue]

excuses excuses.

wtf?

[TeyshaBlue]

This is like debating my dog. It's really easy but when its over I realize I just debated a dog.:depressed

[Wild Cobra]

This is like debating my dog. It's really easy but when its over I realize I just debated a dog.:depressed
You appear to not even attempt to understand my points.

[TeyshaBlue]

You appear to not even attempt to understand my points.

You have yet to actually support your "points" with anything approaching logic.

[Wild Cobra]

You have yet to actually support your "points" with anything approaching logic.
I'm sure others understand what I have said.

[MannyIsGod]

Really? If they do can they speak up?

[Oh, Gee!!]

I'm sure others understand what I have said.


like other things you're sure about, you're wrong about this one as well.

[MannyIsGod]

WC, I don't think you understand how alone you are.

[LnGrrrR]

There are a half dozen I hang out with on occasion. They tell me if the inner city problems they escaped.

Nobody ever said there's no way out. It's difficult, and you have to lose the defeatist attitude.

So do they tell their children it's hopeless? Or are they telling you about blacks THEY know who tell their children it's hopeless?

[ChumpDumper]

I'm sure others understand what I have said.I understand that you based your cultural view on a personal anecdote of blacks telling you the opposite of what your cultural view is, and somehow that makes sense to you.

[Wild Cobra]

WC, I don't think you understand how alone you are.
Yes, I am one of the few here that seeks the truth.

[Wild Cobra]

So do they tell their children it's hopeless? Or are they telling you about blacks THEY know who tell their children it's hopeless?
Not at all.

They enjoy working and providing for themselves, and setting the example of hard work. They don't want their children growing up like they did.

[MannyIsGod]

Yes, I am one of the few here that seeks the truth.

:lmao

Yet you can provide no proof of you're "truths".

[MannyIsGod]

Not at all.

They enjoy working and providing for themselves, and setting the example of hard work. They don't want their children growing up like they did.

So then the black people that you know are hard workers yet your logical conclusion is that the black "culture" (lol) are ethically inferior?

:lmao

Nice truth there.

[MannyIsGod]

.

Hearsay isn't fact. I want to see the text. I already looked, and failed at finding it.



Dud...

I live in Portland. I see what that editorial is about.

:lmao

[Wild Cobra]

OK Manny, you tell me then why there are so many more fucked up minorities than whites.

[FromWayDowntown]

OK Manny, you tell me then why there are so many more fucked up minorities than whites.

Obviously, whites are better people by and large.

[Wild Cobra]

Obviously, whites are better people by and large.
If you say so.

Have any solutions to fix these problems at the root level, or do you want to pretend they don't exist?

[ElNono]

I really have a hard time believing there's people THAT ignorant, irrational and fallacious as WC out there. It gotta be a troll job.

On the other hand, it completely explains his immediate defensive stance when somebody mocks similarly intellectually challenged people like, say, Palin.

[Blake]

If you say so.

Have any solutions to fix these problems at the root level, or do you want to pretend they don't exist?

tube tying and vasectomies?

[FromWayDowntown]

If you say so.

Have any solutions to fix these problems at the root level, or do you want to pretend they don't exist?

Improving educational and employment opportunities, at least in part by considering factors including race into consideration in order to benefit an underrepresented group.

Of course, that requires that those that have give up some things in order to benefit those whose backgrounds are adversely affected by the long-term, endemic socio-economic problems that arise from long-term denial of equality.

[Wild Cobra]

Improving educational and employment opportunities, at least in part by considering factors including race into consideration in order to benefit an underrepresented group.

So how many generations of children are you willing to sacrifice in the hopes that helping them after the formative years is the solution?

Of course, that requires that those that have give up some things in order to benefit those whose backgrounds are adversely affected by the long-term, endemic socio-economic problems that arise from long-term denial of equality.
A solution that makes other give something up is not a solution thief.

[Borat Sagyidev]

OK Manny, you tell me then why there are so many more fucked up minorities than whites.


:lol:downspin:

I think the funny part is that you think you're not fucked up. Must be that white trash culture leading to superiority, no justification needed.

How do we fix this problem? Should we throw more money at Wild Cobra?

Notice I'm addressing the individual and not the group.

[FromWayDowntown]

So how many generations of children are you willing to sacrifice in the hopes that helping them after the formative years is the solution?

Whose children are being sacrificed?

Certainly you're not arguing that generations of affluent, white children are harmed by policies that encourage achievement by the children of less affluent families.

If you were making that argument, it would be both factually inaccurate and ridiculously absurd.



A solution that makes other give something up is not a solution thief.

Is your solution that we should just give up on the problem?

[TeyshaBlue]

So how many generations of children are you willing to sacrifice in the hopes that helping them after the formative years is the solution
First off, you haven't made the case of formative years yet. You need to do that first before you start refering to it as if we had any idea what's skittering around in that weird sensorium of yours.


A solution that makes other give something up is not a solution thief.

Bullshit. Society functions on that very basis. We give up something for the greater good every day. We follow laws that might take away from our day, but benefits others. In the context of quotas, or whatever the hell it is your whining about, it's not meant to be permanent. It's meant to address a problem for the greater good. Everyone benefits from an equitable playing field in the greater picture. You think too small.
Taxes accomplish this as well, and we all bitch about them, but we pay them.

[Wild Cobra]

First off, you haven't made the case of formative years yet. You need to do that first before you start refering to it as if we had any idea what's skittering around in that weird sensorium of yours.

OK, stay ignorant.

[TeyshaBlue]

OK, stay ignorant.

Ok, stay obtuse.

[Agloco]

So how many generations of children are you willing to sacrifice in the hopes that helping them after the formative years is the solution?

A solution that makes other give something up is not a solution thief.

Give us a solution that doesn't require anyone to give anything up then.

[LnGrrrR]

Not at all.

They enjoy working and providing for themselves, and setting the example of hard work. They don't want their children growing up like they did.

Hm. You said:


Changed my mistake of "some" to "all."

Too many parentd do tell their kids they don't have a future.

Yet, you know a half dozen black people personally, whom you talk with regularly, and not one of them tells their children that they can't make it.

Do they tell stories about how they've heard OTHER black parents who tell their children that it's hopeless? If so, I fail to hear where you're getting this information from.

I find it rather odd that you seem to believe a majority of blacks are willing to blame the culture and society for their problems, and yet of all of the half dozen blacks you associate with, none seem to do that. Neato.

[MannyIsGod]

Yes, odd indeed, LNG. We tend to call that bigoted. :toast

[FromWayDowntown]

Yes, odd indeed, LNG. We tend to call that bigoted. :toast

Forming opinions based on unsubstantiated assumptions rather than facts is not bigoted, Manny -- you PC-bound simpleton.

[Winehole23]

Forming opinions based on unsubstantiated assumptions rather than facts is not bigoted, Manny -- you PC-bound simpleton. Can be bigoted. Still, I don't know how anyone would get through he day if all the expedient/provisional assumptions had to be vetted beforehand.

Dunno. I tend to doubt the connection between unexamined premises and racism is necessary. Racism is customary in addition to being ideological and rationalized. Might be a sufficient condition, tho.

[scott]

http://www.geekologie.com/2010/02/09/its-a-trap.jpg

[MannyIsGod]

Can be bigoted. Still, I don't know how anyone would get through he day if all the expedient/provisional assumptions had to be vetted beforehand.


No and we're all prejudiced in some way shape or form. But there's a fundamental difference between making poor assumptions about say - the way a brand of soda tastes - or an entire race of people.



Dunno. I tend to doubt the connection between unexamined premises and racism is necessary. Racism is customary in addition to being ideological and rationalized. Might be a sufficient condition, tho.

I may be misunderstanding you here, but I have to ask why? I think holding someone to a reasonable expectation of not forming assumptions of others based upon skin color is fair as hell. Someone who cannot abide by that is bigoted.

If the premise is unexamined then you can simply say "I don't know" but if you assume an unexamined premise leads you to a conclusion then I don't see how you could defend that.

Ignorance is fine. We're not all supposed to know everything. Opinions based upon ignorance are not, however.

[Winehole23]

The rational pathologies might be epiphenomenal rather than causative. That's really all I was trying to say there.

[MannyIsGod]

Sure - I think its rationalization but not necessarily a logical conclusion. You made me go to a dictionary, btw. :lol

[Winehole23]

No and we're all prejudiced in some way shape or form. But there's a fundamental difference between making poor assumptions about say - the way a brand of soda tastes - or an entire race of people.Morality enters into it when the subject of judgment is people. No doubt.

I think holding someone to a reasonable expectation of not forming assumptions of others based upon skin color is fair as hell. Someone who cannot abide by that is bigoted. Then there's social mores. It's no longer socially respectable to be openly bigoted.

But I totally disagree it's reasonable to expect people to be strictly reasonable, or to expect them not to have formed assumptions beforehand about race.

If the premise is unexamined then you can simply say "I don't know" but if you assume an unexamined premise leads you to a conclusion then I don't see how you could defend that.

Ignorance is fine. We're not all supposed to know everything. Opinions based upon ignorance are not, however.You don't kick them all into the same ditch. Some are better, some are worse.

[Winehole23]

So go to town, Manny.

[TeyshaBlue]

The rational pathologies might be epiphenomenal rather than causative. That's really all I was trying to say there.

WC is way overdue an epiphany then.

[Winehole23]

Not until he stops buying his own bs.

[MannyIsGod]

Morality enters into it when the subject of judgment is people. No doubt.
Then there's social mores. It's no longer socially respectable to be openly bigoted.

But I totally disagree it's reasonable to expect people to be strictly reasonable, or to expect them not to have formed assumptions beforehand about race.
You don't kick them all into the same ditch. Some are better, some are worse.

Why do you disagree?

[MannyIsGod]

WH, do you think there are a large segment of people who form predisposed opinions of someone based upon the color their eyes?

[Winehole23]

So I kind of see what you mean, Teysha

[TeyshaBlue]

WH, do you think there are a large segment of people who form predisposed opinions of someone based upon the color their eyes?

Green eyes =spawn of Satan.

[Winehole23]

Why do you disagree?I think people are basically irrational. Reason appears post facto to neaten up.

[MannyIsGod]

I think you believe it unreasonable (I could be wrong) because the paradigm we've had is that we've always had judgment of people based upon the color of their skin. We have steadily moved away from that paradigm, however, and just as it doesn't even cross our mind to judge someone based upon a large amount of physical traits we may one day reach the point where skin is among those.

I know we're not there but I don't think its unreasonable to expect people to continue to move in that direction.

[MannyIsGod]

I think people are basically irrational. Reason appears post facto to neaten up.

If humans were irrational we would not have survived as a species. People do irrational things, but as a whole we are a very rational species.

[Winehole23]

I know we're not there but I don't think its unreasonable to expect people to continue to move in that direction.Sure. Social disapprobation will continue to push people in that direction. Others will get religion all on their own.

[TeyshaBlue]

If humans were irrational we would not have survived as a species. People do irrational things, but as a whole we are a very rational species.

WW I and WW II say hi.

[Winehole23]

If humans were irrational we would not have survived as a species. People do irrational things, but as a whole we are a very rational species.Individually, we are not.

[MannyIsGod]

WW I and WW II say hi.

I don't know if I'd call WWII completely irrational. You may not agree with the goals of nations like Germany and Japan but I don't know if that inherently makes them irrational.

[Winehole23]

WH, do you think there are a large segment of people who form predisposed opinions of someone based upon the color their eyes?I would say probably yes, but I know nothing about it. Do you?

[MannyIsGod]

Sure. Social disapprobation will continue to push people in that direction. Others will get religion all on their own.

For someone with such a large vocabulary that is an awfully incorrect usage of the word religion. I get that you frown upon social norms but that hardly makes them a religion.

[MannyIsGod]

Individually, we are not.

Completely false. I'm not saying that we don't have instances of irrationality as individuals but to say that we're largely irrational is bogus. A small minority of our decisions and actions are irrational.

[Winehole23]

Social propriety can be an idol too.

[Winehole23]

Completely false. I'm not saying that we don't have instances of irrationality as individuals but to say that we're largely irrational is bogus. A small minority of our decisions and actions are irrational.Ok, we disagree on this. I'm cool with that.

[MannyIsGod]

Social propriety can be an idol too.

Everything can be an idol. That doesn't inherently make it so. Your use of the word religion there is only to paint it in a negative light. Where do you believe most social norms come from?

[Winehole23]

I don't hate social norms.

[MannyIsGod]

Ok, we disagree on this. I'm cool with that.

I am curious to know how you believe a person functions at all if the majority of their decisions are irrational.

[Winehole23]

You just assumed I did.

[MannyIsGod]

I don't hate social norms.

I may have assumed incorrectly then but it sure seems as though that is the picture you were trying to paint.

[MannyIsGod]

You just assumed I did.

See above. Its not like I pulled that assumption out of thin air.

[Winehole23]

I am curious to know how you believe a person functions at all if the majority of their decisions are irrational.I do believe that. I believe almost all of our decisions are irrational, and that we function just fine with a marginal level of rationality.

[Winehole23]

See above. Its not like I pulled that assumption out of thin air.Oh, I see. You got touchy about the word religion, so you contrived a hostile inference.

[MannyIsGod]

Oh you weren't using religion as a negative there? Its all my inference?

Is so apologies. Its all on me.

[LnGrrrR]

Give us a solution that doesn't require anyone to give anything up then.

I think WC professed that he would accept a system that merely requires quotas on interviews, and not actual job placements. (That said, I'm not even sure how arrifmative action works as the former or latter.)

[Winehole23]

I may have assumed incorrectly then but it sure seems as though that is the picture you were trying to paint.I was only pointing out social norms are anti-racist at this point. Your assumption I was somehow putting down those norms is totally threadbare.


(Pointing out that anti-racism is an idol of the marketplace is not an indictment of anti-racism or the marketplace.)

[MannyIsGod]

I was only pointing out social norms are anti-racist at this point. Your assumption I was somehow putting down those norms is totally threadbare.


(Pointing out that anti-racism is an idol of the marketplace is not an indictment of anti-racism or the marketplace.)

What? Are you kidding me? Saying something is an idol is not a neutral statement WH. You know better. I refuse to believe that someone like you is so careless with words. I'd as soon believe WC will lead us to a more enlightened society.

[LnGrrrR]

Individually, we are not.

Ah, the old "Lottery Paradox". Love it.

[Winehole23]

What? Are you kidding me? Saying something is an idol is not a neutral statement WH.Of course it's not neutral. It's qualified. If you don't like the qualification, feel free to criticize it.

[MannyIsGod]

I believe I did, but you can't make such a qualification and then act as though I reached my conclusions without any reason.

Sorry, if assumed incorrectly that's fine but you don't get to sit there with a "who me" look on your face.

[LnGrrrR]

I do believe that. I believe almost all of our decisions are irrational, and that we function just fine with a marginal level of rationality.

Irrational or Arational? (For instance, if I choose Mountain Dew over Coke, it's arational, ie. no rationality is behind it, except perhaps the rationality of which flavor I prefer.)

If you did indeed mean irrational, irrational in what way? For instance, we call it irrational when someone doesn't save money for later years, but in a sense it's "rational" because those years are not promised, and you can't take it with you. I'm sure there are various other forms of irrationality that could be argued with rational as well.

[Winehole23]

I believe I did, but you can't make such a qualification and then act as though I reached my conclusions without any reason. You generalized from your own prejudice. You dislike religion (or the overtones of the word religion, or whatever). I do not.

[Winehole23]

Work beckons. I'll check in after midnight to reply to yr question, LnGrrrR.

[MannyIsGod]

You generalized from your own prejudice. You dislike religion (or the overtones of the word religion, or whatever). I do not.

So then you were using that word in a positive sense? I asked you this above. You ignored it. I ask once again.

[LnGrrrR]

You generalized from your own prejudice. You dislike religion (or the overtones of the word religion, or whatever). I do not.

I may be slightly biased on this front, but I don't believe that "idol" has very many positive connotations in the light that it was used. If you had said an "ideal" maybe, but "idol", not so much. It seemed to imply fetishistic, tribal worship.

At least, it did to this reader. YMMV.

[LnGrrrR]

Work beckons. I'll check in after midnight to reply to yr question, LnGrrrR.

Thank ya kindly, dear sir. I'll either be stark-raving delirious with glee (if the Bruins win) or greatly despondent (if they don't).

[Winehole23]

Go Bruins!

[MannyIsGod]

I may be slightly biased on this front, but I don't believe that "idol" has very many positive connotations in the light that it was used. If you had said an "ideal" maybe, but "idol", not so much. It seemed to imply fetishistic, tribal worship.

At least, it did to this reader. YMMV.


I definitely assume the usage of the word religion in that connotation is meant negatively. All WH has to do is clarify that he meant it in a positive light but I have never seen that used in a positive manner.

WH the claim may be that this was based upon my feelings of religion but actually its based more off of common usage of the word.

[Winehole23]

It seemed to imply fetishistic, tribal worship.
You say that like it's a bad thing.

[LnGrrrR]

Go Bruins!

You sir, are a true patriot. I tip my hat to you! Go Bruins, indeed!

[LnGrrrR]

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Come on, now you're just toying with us. :lol

Edit: Being an atheist myself, I would like to think that society's norms changing to reflect anti-racist notions is more due to evolved rationality, rather than a sort of unthinking loyalty.

[MannyIsGod]

You say that like it's a bad thing.

:lmao :toast

PS

GFY

[TeyshaBlue]

:lmao :toast

PS

GFY

:lol

[CuckingFunt]

Improving educational and employment opportunities, at least in part by considering factors including race into consideration in order to benefit an underrepresented group.

So how many generations of children are you willing to sacrifice in the hopes that helping them after the formative years is the solution?

The fuck?

[ElNono]

Just when this thread was gaining intellectual momentum...


Go Bruins!

Nevermind

:lol

[CuckingFunt]

Green eyes =spawn of Satan.

Using my dating history as statistical fact, I agree. Fully.

[CuckingFunt]

For someone with such a large vocabulary that is an awfully incorrect usage of the word religion. I get that you frown upon social norms but that hardly makes them a religion.

No. They're considerably more pervasive than a religion.

[LnGrrrR]

Using my dating history as statistical fact, I agree. Fully.

Pshaw and fiddlesticks!

[Winehole23]

Come on, now you're just toying with us. :lol

Edit: Being an atheist myself, I would like to think that society's norms changing to reflect anti-racist notions is more due to evolved rationality, rather than a sort of unthinking loyalty.I would like to think so too, but clowning evolved as well. MONKEYS ARE WICKED SMART.

[Winehole23]

Irrational or Arational? (For instance, if I choose Mountain Dew over Coke, it's arational, ie. no rationality is behind it, except perhaps the rationality of which flavor I prefer.)Um, do I have to pick?


If you did indeed mean irrational, irrational in what way? For instance, we call it irrational when someone doesn't save money for later years, but in a sense it's "rational" because those years are not promised, and you can't take it with you. I'm sure there are various other forms of irrationality that could be argued with rational as well.I wasn't being precise.

What people do isn't usually rationally motivated or executed. It's done for love, glory and gold. The books about it are bound in leather, the leaf is gilt at the edges and all the words within are read some time later. That is reason.

[Winehole23]

So then you were using that word in a positive sense? I asked you this above. You ignored it. I ask once again.I thought I was being descriptive.

[Winehole23]

Turns out the linkage to Francis Bacon isn't even tenuous, so that's another miss...

[TeyshaBlue]

mmmm....Bacon.

[Wild Cobra]

Give us a solution that doesn't require anyone to give anything up then.
I wish I had a good solution.

People need to stop listening to those who blame others, like Jesse Jackson. They need to instead listen the things Bill Cosby has to say.

Ever listen to Bill Cosby or Morgan Freeman on race? Or less popular MLK quotes?

6qiVtt-OABY

z2d2SzRZvsQ

HlvEiBRgp2M

Ezl9XQ_VFac

RKzmYjz_Chg

[CuckingFunt]

Anyone else not the least bit surprised WC apparently didn't understand any of the youtubes he posted?

[Blake]

Anyone else not the least bit surprised WC apparently didn't understand any of the youtubes he posted?

I'm wondering if anyone might actually be surprised.

[Wild Cobra]

Anyone else not the least bit surprised WC apparently didn't understand any of the youtubes he posted?
What do you think I don't understand about them? maybe I see things in the messages you don't.

[TeyshaBlue]

What do you think I don't understand about them? maybe I see things in the messages you don't.

Unquestionably, you do. However, that doesn't mean those things actually exist.:lol

[CuckingFunt]

What do you think I don't understand about them?

Well, you apparently feel they are in some way relevant to the argument(s) you have thus far made.


maybe I see things in the messages you don't.

Potayto, potahto.

[ChumpDumper]

What do you think I don't understand about them? maybe I see things in the messages you don't.Maybe you hear dogs telling you to kill people.

[Winehole23]

http://philosophyfaculty.ucsd.edu/faculty/rutherford/phil32/idols.html

[Agloco]

I wish I had a good solution.

People need to stop listening to those who blame others, like Jesse Jackson. They need to instead listen the things Bill Cosby has to say.

What do you think it takes to change the mindset? These things don't just magically happen. It requires an investment in people. Real resources are needed and that's going to cost someone something at some point.

[LnGrrrR]

It's done for love, glory and gold..

That's kinda my point. If something is done for love, glory, or gold, who's to say it's not rational? :)

[Winehole23]

Fair enough. Needn't be though.

[LnGrrrR]

Fair enough. Needn't be though.

I think, in many cases, rationality is in the eye of the beholder. I think it's much easier to prove that one is thinking irrationally (ie. everytime I wash my car, it rains, therefore, washing my car = causing rain) than acting irrationally. We'll all got our weird hopes and dreams and wants and needs, and they're bound up somewhere in weird unexplainable connections in our head. But that opens up a whole new set of philosophical worms. :)

[Trainwreck2100]

I wish I had a good solution.



That's cause there is no solution for the parameters you want, for someone to gain, someone has to lose. It's the law of conservation.

[Wild Cobra]

What do you think it takes to change the mindset? These things don't just magically happen. It requires an investment in people. Real resources are needed and that's going to cost someone something at some point.
Agreed, but the investment we are doing now is doing almost no good after the children go through the formative years. Too many already believe they have no future, therefore they don't strive for one.