Where Does This Put Dirk Amongst The Greats???

[Ashy Larry]

Honestly, this title should put Dirk somewhere in the 15-20 range with many more years left on his career to shape up that resume even more. This was really the one thing he was lacking ...... by time he's done, 10-15 looks golden

[ducks]

it still does not make for the fact he was ahead 2-0 in finals in 2006 and lost



and then 4 out of the next 5 did not get out of the first round

[BRHornet45]

ahead of Duncan that's for sure

[Agloco]

ahead of Duncan that's for sure

Fo sho.

[Nathan89]

ahead of Duncan that's for sure

a retard for sure

[Amaso]

Probably 18-20 range assuming he doesn't win another ring.

He's definitely a top 10 offensive player for sure, but most top 20 players are 2 way players for the most part. Can't really think of too many that weren't. Dirk is average AT BEST on the defensive side of the ball.

[Ashy Larry]

4 titles and 3 finals mvps > 1 title and 1 finals mvp

[Cant_Be_Faded]

still not an all timer

Just because you are white and a lot of Dallas people jack off to your 11 years of failures does not absolve you of shitty defense for your whole career.

The best players always play both sides the floor :blah

[ElNono]

He'll look a lot better if he ends up being more than one and done... not that he's not a phenomenal player, though.

[Killakobe81]

I was having this debate with a Mavs fan buddy of mine.

When i called him to congratulate him on his team's win ... he says Now will I put Dirk over KG? I still say no ...but it's an interesting debate. i still believe KG is the better all-around player but Dirk the better offensive one. but if Dirk puts up a few more seasons like this one, especially post-seasons even if he DOES NOT ring (again) he has a case ...

[DAF86]

2nd best PF of all-time behind Duncan
2nd best international player of all-time behind Manu

[endrity]

2nd best PF behind Duncan. If he's not there already, 2-3 more All-Star type years should make it.

[Killakobe81]

amaso is right probably 18-20 all time ...

I will have him slightly higher cuz I dont rank player I have never seen ...

[Killakobe81]

2nd best PF of all-time behind Duncan
2nd best international player of all-time behind Manu

:rollin

[TD 21]

Definitely not top 10-15. It's not just the fact that he only has one championship, it's the fact that, great as scorer as he is, he's a one dimensional player. I'm not trying to rain on Mavs fans parade (honestly), but it took Bryant winning his fifth championship before the vast majority put him in the top ten. Nowitzki wins one and now he's right there? Don't be a prisoner of the moment and lose perspective.

[ElNono]

I was having this debate with a Mavs fan buddy of mine.

When i called him to congratulate him on his team's win ... he says Now will I put Dirk over KG? I still say no ...but it's an interesting debate. i still believe KG is the better all-around player but Dirk the better offensive one. but if Dirk puts up a few more seasons like this one, especially post-seasons even if he DOES NOT ring he has a case ...

I think he has a legitimate point to be in that conversation now...

[Ice009]

Probably 18-20 range assuming he doesn't win another ring.

He's definitely a top 10 offensive player for sure, but most top 20 players are 2 way players for the most part. Can't really think of too many that weren't. Dirk is average AT BEST on the defensive side of the ball.

Really don't want to talk shit about Dirk, but you know your stuff. Most of the greatest did in on both ends. Tim was just as dominant offensively as he was defensively when he was at his best. He anchored both ends of the court. Let's not go throwing Dirk above players just yet. He has a chance to really move up though.

[namlook]

Probably 18-20 range assuming he doesn't win another ring.

He's definitely a top 10 offensive player for sure, but most top 20 players are 2 way players for the most part. Can't really think of too many that weren't. Dirk is average AT BEST on the defensive side of the ball.

He's an average rebounder for his size and a below average defender. But also the best shooting big man of all time.

[ducks]

dirk has trouble fighting thru a pick and roll

[dirk4mvp]

dirk has trouble fighting thru a pick and roll

Don't you do this now, ducks. I've been a supporter of yours for too long now.

[Amaso]

He's an average rebounder for his size and a below average defender. But also the best shooting big man of all time.

Yep, forgot to mention average rebounder.

Honestly, had Dirk been paired with another legit all-star or hell even a 1-2 punch with Kobe, Dirk probably could've peaked at ~10 even with his defensive deficiencies compared to other all-time greats. Alot of how we rank players is by circumstances that they couldn't control. Think about it, Dirk won a ring against 3 all-stars(2 "superstars") when his 2nd best player was a 6'2" SG who we all thought his best days were behind him. Yeah, Dirk didn't do it all on his own this series but still, it's amazing to think how offensively efficient he's been in his career without a true interior presence to relieve some pressure off of him, or even another legit scoring option that can consistently create on his own.

[JoeTait75]

2nd best international player of all-time behind Manu

LOL. I like Manu but he's basically a rich man's Andrew Toney, tbh.

[Spurminator]

I'm not big on rankings but here's one group of greats it puts him among.... Superstars who won an NBA Championship without a Superstar teammate.

In my opinion, since the merger, that list is limited to Bill Walton (77), Hakeem Olajuwan (94), Tim Duncan (03), and Nowitzki (11).

[Killakobe81]

I'm not big on rankings but here's one group of greats it puts him among.... Superstars who won an NBA Championship without a Superstar teammate.

In my opinion, since the merger, that list is limited to Bill Walton (77), Hakeem Olajuwan (94), Tim Duncan (03), and Nowitzki (11).


Pretty fair list but who was Kobe's superstar? (after shaq)
Now if you say they won without an all-star team-mate that is different. but LOL at Pau as a "superstar" ...

[davethedope]

I'm not big on rankings but here's one group of greats it puts him among.... Superstars who won an NBA Championship without a Superstar teammate.

In my opinion, since the merger, that list is limited to Bill Walton (77), Hakeem Olajuwan (94), Tim Duncan (03), and Nowitzki (11).

You forgot Zeke

[Proxy]

2nd best PF behind Duncan. If he's not there already, 2-3 more All-Star type years should make it.

I agree. He goes above KG because he has proven that he can lead a team as the top dog, and he's got a FMVP now.

2nd behind Duncan for PFs which would put him in the top 25 range, being higher than the mailman and charles

[ElNono]

Now if you say they won without an all-star team-mate that is different. but LOL at Pau as a "superstar" ...

Like it or not, the Grizz were building a franchise around that guy... Pau will never get the credit he deserves, tbh

[windboy226]

Really don't want to talk shit about Dirk, but you know your stuff. Most of the greatest did in on both ends. Tim was just as dominant offensively as he was defensively when he was at his best. He anchored both ends of the court. Let's not go throwing Dirk above players just yet. He has a chance to really move up though.

Man, that's the most respectful trash talk ever if that's what you think you did. Tim is the ABSOLUTE best PF of all time and can't imagine most Mavs fans even debating that. Where Dirk is all time? Top 20 or top 30 now? Don't really care at all...only thing that matters is that Dirk is a CHAMPION now. So happy.

[ElNono]

I'll add that the Pistons is another impressive team that won it without an actual superstar...

[Proxy]

Pretty fair list but who was Kobe's superstar? (after shaq)
Now if you say they won without an all-star team-mate that is different. but LOL at Pau as a "superstar" ...

c'mon now. Before his relationship mess and this year's playoffs debacle, people had him as the best PF in the league. The Lakers weren't sniffing contention pre-Pau. He's a superstar.

[Killakobe81]

c'mon now. Before his relationship mess and this year's playoffs debacle, people had him as the best PF in the league. The Lakers weren't sniffing contention pre-Pau. He's a superstar.

GTFO ...superstar?!

Define a superstar ...please by anyone's sensible definition he is NOT that.

Sure grizzz built around him and he could not win a playoff game in that role not ONE. All-star, great player and a top 5 PF but he was never the best PFat least in my book. i did think he fit the triangle better than dirk, but NEVER thought he was a better player ...

[Killakobe81]

I'll add that the Pistons is another impressive team that won it without an actual superstar...

their shit was even more impressive tbh ...only team since 1980 to win without a sure-fire HOF'er ...

This mavs team though he is aging has two ... (Kidd is first ballot)

[TD 21]

I'm not big on rankings but here's one group of greats it puts him among.... Superstars who won an NBA Championship without a Superstar teammate.

In my opinion, since the merger, that list is limited to Bill Walton (77), Hakeem Olajuwan (94), Tim Duncan (03), and Nowitzki (11).

That's a good way of putting it. But this wasn't the one man band that Olajuwon was in '94 and Duncan was in '03, where they were doing practically everything for their teams (not just scoring). Those two basically played the role of Nowitzki, Chandler and Kidd, for their respective teams.

What Nowitzki had that they didn't was a bloated payroll and a cadre of highly accomplished teammates. Former perennial All-Stars, All-NBAers/defensive, etc. This was a team with a lot of solid, undervalued players and they got contributions from their entire rotation, unlike the Heat.

[ElNono]

their shit was even more impressive tbh ...only team since 1980 to win without a sure-fire HOF'er ...

This mavs team though he is aging has two ... (Kidd is first ballot)

Not surprising they were one and done. But credit where it's due. They consistently dominated the East and made it to two Finals. They gave us a heck of a fight in '05. Larry Brown is an asshole but he doesn't get enough credit for that, imo.

[Juggity]

Well, I dunno. Probably somewhere behind Hitler, but he's definitely above Goebbels now, he's sealed that legacy at last.

[Proxy]

GTFO ...superstar?!

Define a superstar ...please by anyone's sensible definition he is NOT that.

Sure grizzz built around him and he could not win a playoff game in that role not ONE. All-star, great player and a top 5 PF but he was never the best PFat least in my book. i did think he fit the triangle better than dirk, but NEVER thought he was a better player ...

Well, yeah, our definition of superstar isn't the same then. Superstar is thrown around so much now. I think your definition of superstar is my definition of HoFamer.

[Amaso]

Well, yeah, our definition of superstar isn't the same then. Superstar is thrown around so much now. I think your definition of superstar is my definition of HoFamer.

Do you think it's fair to say Kobe makes Gasol look better than he actually is?

[Killakobe81]

NBA superstars: (no order) Players that dominate their position and or games consistently ...

1. Lebron
2. Kobe
3. Wade
4. Durant
5. Rose
6. Dirk
7. Duncan
8. Howard
9. Paul
10. Amare
11. Melo
12. Nash
13. KG
14. Dwill


Great players all-stars"

1. Pau
2. Manu
3. Rudy Gay
4. Zbo
5. Aldridge
6. Bogut
7. Blake
8. Westbrook
9. Parker
10. Odom
11. Terry
12. Joe Johnson
13. Horford
14. Nene

a lot more im sure but you get the idea is Pau so much better than Zbo or Manu? None of those 3 are superstars in my book ...

[ElNono]

Come on... Gasol was rookie of the year, he won with Spain also... he's still considered one of the best PF in the league. The guy has a shot at being a HoF...
Kobe will get his credit, there's no need to sink Pau (or Shaq, etc).

[ElNono]

Pau didn't dominate games consistently? He was one of the most consistent Lakers in the last 2-peat...

[Jacob1983]

Top ten to fifteen. In Dallas sports, Dirk is top 5.

[ElNono]

He did choke this season, though (Pau)

[Amaso]

NBA superstars: (no order) Players that dominate their position and or games consistently ...

1. Lebron
2. Kobe
3. Wade
4. Durant
5. Rose
6. Dirk
7. Duncan
8. Howard
9. Paul
10. Amare
11. Melo
12. Nash
13. KG
14. Dwill


Great players all-stars"

1. Pau
2. Manu
3. Rudy Gay
4. Zbo
5. Aldridge
6. Bogut
7. Blake
8. Westbrook
9. Parker
10. Odom
11. Terry
12. Joe Johnson
13. Horford
14. Nene

a lot more im sure but you get the idea is Pau so much better than Zbo or Manu? None of those 3 are superstars in my book ...

Pretty good list, although I think it's safe to say Pau is one of the best if not the best non-superstar (according to your list), but I usually only think there's truly 5-6 superstars in a league at one time, not 14 like you posted and definitely not KG or Nahs at this point in their careers. I also would probably change your "all-star" list a little too.

[Cuppycake Gumdrop]

2nd best international player of all-time behind Manu

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

great troll attempt, bro.

If you try to bring up FIBA shit like it matters at all, I seriously hope you die in a car crash tomorrow.

[Proxy]

Do you think it's fair to say Kobe makes Gasol look better than he actually is?

Duncan makes Parker... or did make Parker look better than he actually is. Players on a HOF tier do that, which is why it's difficult to rank the second options like Pippen. It's hard to determine how good Kobe actually was when he 3 peated with prime Shaq... but yeah, Kobe makes Pau look better than he actually is. Sure. I hate Kobe, but he is a badass.

that being said, the Lakers need Pau as a low post, all-star calibur player to contend. This year is obvious proof that LA goes no where without him, with this current roster.

[ElNono]

Agree with Amaso. Some of those guys are not a franchise player that can still take you all the way. Duncan is definitely on the decline. Nash same. KG is also in the down turn. Paul and DWill are probably two of the best PG in the league, but I don't think they can really carry a team (like Dirk did this postseason, or like Howard can dominate physically inside).
Rose has potential, and I really think Durant is severely overrated, IMO.

[Cuppycake Gumdrop]

And I don't see how there's any fucking debate that Dirk>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Garnett now.

Garnett had two superstars by his side to win a title.

Dirk had 3-4 decent role players, and that's it.

[Killakobe81]

Come on... Gasol was rookie of the year, he won with Spain also... he's still considered one of the best PF in the league. The guy has a shot at being a HoF...
Kobe will get his credit, there's no need to sink Pau (or Shaq, etc).

ROY does not = superstar ...Tyreke won one too is he a superstar?


Pau is a great player and an all-star. Right now he is not a HOF based on his NBA career alone IMHO ...he has a chance as does Manu ...does that change Duncan's credit? this has nothing to do with Kobe ...Pau is not a superstar, he is a all-star.


Superstar = to me someone that you would strongly consider for first team ALL NBA ... and a no doubt about it 2nd team aLL NBA ...

What year was Pau without question at least the 2nd best PF in the NBA?

Maybe the year KG was hurt any other year he was trailing Duncan Dirk, KG ..now he trails amare and Dirk still ... with Blake closing fast. he has passed Duncan and KG but they are aging ...

[Killakobe81]

Pretty good list, although I think it's safe to say Pau is one of the best if not the best non-superstar (according to your list), but I usually only think there's truly 5-6 superstars in a league at one time, not 14 like you posted and definitely not KG or Nahs at this point in their careers. I also would probably change your "all-star" list a little too.

hey I dont disagree that Nash, duncan and KG are aging ... but point is at one time they were superstars ...when the fuck was Pau a "superstar" ...

The reason i included the guys who are not that anymore because wewere talking about guys that carried their team to a title without superstar help ...

Im not saying Kobe could of won without Pau ...without pau we were losing in the first round just like Pau (but we did not get swept) Point is that does not make him a superstar. Hakeem did not win before they traded for Otis thorpe but that does not make Thorpe a superstar either ...yes Pau is much better offensivelty than thorpe but you get the point ...

[dirk4mvp]

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

great troll attempt, bro.

If you try to bring up FIBA shit like it matters at all, I seriously hope you die in a car crash tomorrow.

the funniest things is his "Dirk hasn't led a team to a title and I think Manu could be a really good #1 option:cry" angle is out of the window.

[Amaso]

Duncan makes Parker... or did make Parker look better than he actually is. Players on a HOF tier do that, which is why it's difficult to rank the second options like Pippen. It's hard to determine how good Kobe actually was when he 3 peated with prime Shaq... but yeah, Kobe makes Pau look better than he actually is. Sure. I hate Kobe, but he is a badass.

that being said, the Lakers need Pau as a low post, all-star calibur player to contend. This year is obvious proof that LA goes no where without him, with this current roster.

You're right, superstars do make other players look good. Pippen would be a first ballot HOF without MJ. One of the greatest defensive players of all-time and could probably lead a team far in a playoff run as the best player on that team, but probably would struggle to win a title.

As to Lakers needing a low-post all-star calibur player you are probably right, but almost all championship teams need that so there's really no where to go with that statement. Obviously the Lakers would not have won a title without Pau, but would they have won it with another all-star forward/center? probably, maybe they would've been a better team with a replacement for Pau.

[Proxy]

NBA superstars: (no order) Players that dominate their position and or games consistently ...

1. Lebron
2. Kobe
3. Wade
4. Durant
5. Rose
6. Dirk
7. Duncan
8. Howard
9. Paul
10. Amare
11. Melo
12. Nash
13. KG
14. Dwill


Great players all-stars"

1. Pau
2. Manu
3. Rudy Gay
4. Zbo
5. Aldridge
6. Bogut
7. Blake
8. Westbrook
9. Parker
10. Odom
11. Terry
12. Joe Johnson
13. Horford
14. Nene

a lot more im sure but you get the idea is Pau so much better than Zbo or Manu? None of those 3 are superstars in my book ...

I hesitated on D-Will, Amare, Melo, and Howard. TD too.... you have me a bit confused. Manu was the leader of SA this year so it seems they would be flipped... I'm confused as to if this list represents career or current state.

If it's current state, then I don't think TD and KG belong on that tier anymore.

[Killakobe81]

I hesitated on D-Will, Amare, Melo, and Howard. TD too.... you have me a bit confused. Manu was the leader of SA this year so it seems they would be flipped... I'm confused as to if this list represents career or current state.

If it's current state, then I don't think TD and KG belong on that tier anymore.

My list is really at their "peak" meaning Nash, TD, KG were all superstars at one point in time. So i guess i should add Kidd and Ghill as well.

Dwill and Paul I'm assuming both healthy ...but i admit even healthy I was not absolutely sure on those 2 either ...

[ElNono]

ROY does not = superstar ...Tyreke won one too is he a superstar?

Don't really know yet, tbh, but doesn't look like it. What I'm aiming at is that he's done well and above average as a player before being paired with Kobe. Lakerfan shits on him for not winning a playoff game, but he consistently took the Grizz to the playoffs when the West was pretty fucking dominant. I mean, one of those times we swept them but the Spurs went on to win it all that year.


Pau is a great player and an all-star. Right now he is not a HOF based on his NBA career alone IMHO ...he has a chance as does Manu ...does that change Duncan's credit? this has nothing to do with Kobe ...Pau is not a superstar, he is a all-star.

HoF qualifications go beyond the NBA. He has lead his NT to gold in the WC, and also the Euro championships. He's been categorically mentioned as one of the top PF in the league the past 3 or 4 years. Does having Phil and Kobe around help that perception? Probably. But Kobe and Phil also couldn't do shit either until Pau came around. So you have to recognize that the kid is an over the top talent. He was the difference between winning or losing for the Lakers. This season is further proof of that.


Superstar = to me someone that you would strongly consider for first team ALL NBA ... and a no doubt about it 2nd team aLL NBA ...

What year was Pau without question at least the 2nd best PF in the NBA?

Maybe the year KG was hurt any other year he was trailing Duncan Dirk, KG ..now he trails amare and Dirk still ... with Blake closing fast. he has passed Duncan and KG but they are aging ...

These terms (superstar, franchise) are very debatable. I'm talking about talent overall. Pau was 2nd team All-NBA this season, btw. And it probably reflects more what he did the past two seasons than this one, but he's undeniably a great talent, and tops in the league.

[ElNono]

btw, Dirk was also All-NBA 2nd team this season...

[Proxy]

You're right, superstars do make other players look good. Pippen would be a first ballot HOF without MJ. One of the greatest defensive players of all-time and could probably lead a team far in a playoff run as the best player on that team, but probably would struggle to win a title.

As to Lakers needing a low-post all-star calibur player you are probably right, but almost all championship teams need that so there's really no where to go with that statement. Obviously the Lakers would not have won a title without Pau, but would they have won it with another all-star forward/center? probably, maybe they would've been a better team with a replacement for Pau.

Of course. It's moronic to take anything away from Kobe. Nearly every title was won by teams with at least 2 players in the HOF.

... but if we're trying to distinguish the teams and players that didn't follow the pattern of having a second all-star, then Kobe doesn't belong in that group due to Shaq's and Pau's existence on LA's championship rosters. I think it's a real testament to Hakeem, Duncan, and now Dirk's greatness to make it, where players like Malone, Charles, Reggie, KG, Lebron, Nash and other's couldn't on their own....

I'm not saying Dirk's better than Kobe or anything, but winning a ring in this fashion is incredibly impressive. To me, it catapults Dirk to 2nd PF all time over KG/Malone, and behind Duncan

[Killakobe81]

Don't really know yet, tbh, but doesn't look like it. What I'm aiming at is that he's done well and above average as a player before being paired with Kobe. Lakerfan shits on him for not winning a playoff game, but he consistently took the Grizz to the playoffs when the West was pretty fucking dominant. I mean, one of those times we swept them but the Spurs went on to win it all that year.


HoF qualifications go beyond the NBA. He has lead his NT to gold in the WC, and also the Euro championships. He's been categorically mentioned as one of the top PF in the league the past 3 or 4 years. Does having Phil and Kobe around help that perception? Probably. But Kobe and Phil also couldn't do shit either until Pau came around. So you have to recognize that the kid is an over the top talent. He was the difference between winning or losing for the Lakers. This season is further proof of that.


These terms (superstar, franchise) are very debatable. I'm talking about talent overall. Pau was 2nd team All-NBA this season, btw. And it probably reflects more what he did the past two seasons than this one, but he's undeniably a great talent, and tops in the league.

My point was no doubt about it 1st team or 2nd team ...we all know Durant stole Dirk's spot ...and no way did Pau deserve 2nd this year tbh ...3rd is about right ...

I never said he wa snot very good but very good all star and superstar are still different ...

Let me say it this way this past regual season can you say that Pau DEFINITIVELY had a better year than (not counting team records which do matter of course but just saying ...) ?

1. Aldridge
2. amare
3. blake
4. Odom
5. david West
6. KG
7. Horford
8. Zbo

My point is superstars are not lumped with other all-stars they stand out ...if we talk about right now ...

Center: Howard is a superstar at center he is far and away the best ...

PG: Rose, Paul and Dwill (when healthy) to me are the best PG's

SG: Kobe, wade (Manu when healthy is in this class too since he is hurt a lot I have him top

SF: Lebron, Melo and Durant are the best

PF: Dirk is the best, he dominated Pau and beat Bosh in this year's playoffs to prove it ... I dont see anyone in his class at the position ...after that any of those other guys have a claim ...

[Jacob1983]

Dirk has a ring now. Hehehehehe.

[ElNono]

Killa, maybe not this season, but he definitely did have a better year last season than all those you list (including KG and Dirk, imo). I said it back in January that I saw Pau very tired. The guy isn't used to 3 deep playoffs runs + international play. It catches up to you eventually. Happened with Tim and KG too, for them it was injuries. Kobe is a physical beast, but not everybody is like that.

[jjktkk]

Kobe was/is one of the all time greats, but most of his career he was surrounding by all star caliber role players, not to mention Shaq. Dirk's championship is alot more impressive imo.

[nowhereman523]

The way I see it, Duncan and Dirk are the only two PFs to carry a team to the promised land as THE guy.

[ALVAREZ6]

2nd best PF of all-time behind Duncan


Garnett>Dirk

[nowhereman523]

LOL no. Duncan, Dirk, Barkley, Malone >>> KG.

[Ice009]

Kobe was/is one of the all time greats, but most of his career he was surrounding by all star caliber role players, not to mention Shaq. Dirk's championship is alot more impressive imo.

Forget about Kobe for a second I just wanted to say that I love that a team built around a big won it yet again over Lebron and Wade. To me a great, great bigman is better than any guard or forward to build a team around. Dirk isn't a traditional big, but he's still a big man. I'd start a team with prime Olajuwon or Duncan. I'd wouldn't pick Jordan, Kobe, Lebron or any of those guys.

Something I would like to discuss also is whether or not Pau really was better than Dirk these last two or three seasons? Dirk has choked once or twice before in playoffs against Miami and Goldenstate, but since then I think it's mainly been his teammates that have let him down as most of the time he has played his ass off since then. Was Pau really the best PF from the time that TD declined up to now or was it really Nowitzki? So from 2009 until now who has been better between Dirk and Pau?

[badfish22]

Dirk and Pau isn't even a discussion.

[Findog]

All I care about is that now my team has a championship and you can say that Dirk is absolutely a #1 option and can be the best player on a title team. Where he places in the Top 10, 20, 30, 40, whatever...I don't care. My team has a title now, and Dirk was the best player on it.

[Ice009]

Dirk and Pau isn't even a discussion.

I'd say most people had Pau ahead of Dirk these last few seasons as the number 1 PF in the NBA. I'd like to see them go back and actually take a better look at that and see if they still say the same thing.

[DAF86]

Garnett>Dirk

I know, I wasn't serious in either claim.

[endrity]

You pay superstar money to the guy that carries you to the victory the last 5 minutes of the game. Dirk does that, KG never even thought about doing it. He's 34 now and still playing hot potato with the ball in a tight game. Malone did that as well tbh. Barkley didn't, he had the heart, but maybe not enough work ethic to work in his weaknesses.

My ranking:
Duncan
Dirk
Malone
Barkley
KG
McHale

I'd like to say a thing about Petit, Hayes, McAdo, Dave DeBuschree (spelled correctly?). But I just don't much about their game to be able to say so.

[DAF86]

O'neal wouldn't carry any team to victory in the last 5 minutes of a game, yet he's the most dominant player I've ever seen.

[endrity]

yeah yeah Manu > Dirk. Move along, nothing to see here.

[DAF86]

Thanks for conceding my point.

[Ice009]

You pay superstar money to the guy that carries you to the victory the last 5 minutes of the game. Dirk does that, KG never even thought about doing it. He's 34 now and still playing hot potato with the ball in a tight game. Malone did that as well tbh. Barkley didn't, he had the heart, but maybe not enough work ethic to work in his weaknesses.

My ranking:
Duncan
Dirk
Malone
Barkley
KG
McHale

I'd like to say a thing about Petit, Hayes, McAdo, Dave DeBuschree (spelled correctly?). But I just don't much about their game to be able to say so.

Kevin McHale actually said the same thing about KG. He said a couple of seasons ago that you can put the ball in Tim Duncan or Manu's hands in the last 5 minutes of the game and they can win you the game. He said KG doesn't do that so that is one of the reasons he traded him. As great as KG was he wasn't really a closer. Have people already forgotten about Lebron in the 4th quarter of the finals? KG and Lebron are similar closers. KG might be the Lebron of big men. Great stats and team player, but wasn't that great at closing out a game.

I remember one game against the Spurs were the Wolves needed one shot to win the game and KG passed the ball to Dean Garrett for a jump shot to win the game. DEAN GARRETT. Think about that. When KG had his best success is when he had closers like Sprewell and Sam Cassell on the team. Same thing in Boston with Paul Pierce and Ray Allen.

edit : lol I just realized that Lebron said the Heat followed the example of the Celtics in 2008 when they decided to form the super team. Maybe Lebron wanted the KG role since they are similar players when it comes to closing out games.

[DAF86]

Manu > KG is the new Manu > Dirk people.

[FkLA]

That's a good way of putting it. But this wasn't the one man band that Olajuwon was in '94 and Duncan was in '03, where they were doing practically everything for their teams (not just scoring). Those two basically played the role of Nowitzki, Chandler and Kidd, for their respective teams.

Great point that has conveniently gone unnoticed. Dirk is an average defender and rebounder, to say he completely carried this team on his back is pretty retarded. He carried them offensively which is obviously huge, but its not all that goes into winning a game. For that same reason it'd be stupid to rank him anywhere in the Top 20 in an all-time list or ahead of TD and KG in a PF list. He's definitely a Top 10 maybe even Top 5 offensive player of all-time though.

[frodo]

Great point that has conveniently gone unnoticed. Dirk is an average defender and rebounder, to say he completely carried this team on his back is pretty retarded. He carried them offensively which is obviously huge, but its not all that goes into winning a game. For that same reason it'd be stupid to rank him anywhere in the Top 20 in an all-time list or ahead of TD and KG in a PF list. He's definitely a Top 10 maybe even Top 5 offensive player of all-time though.

no one can actually carry a team imho, dirk used to do that the past seasons when he had no legit supporting cast, and the mavs went nowhere further than the 2nd round. dem mavs all did wonderful jobs this year and won da ship as a team. dirk played a terrible 1st half last night to say the least, but the mavs still managed a 2pt lead by half time.

don't get it wrong mayne, we all be mavs fans and i don't think it makes much sense to debate on dirk's all-time status at such a time. we ain't no fan like those manu fans from argentina or Shite fans from chinks land mayne. we da new NBA MF'N champions, it's OUR TIME

[TDMVPDPOY]

Definitely not top 10-15. It's not just the fact that he only has one championship, it's the fact that, great as scorer as he is, he's a one dimensional player. I'm not trying to rain on Mavs fans parade (honestly), but it took Bryant winning his fifth championship before the vast majority put him in the top ten. Nowitzki wins one and now he's right there? Don't be a prisoner of the moment and lose perspective.

you say his a one dimensional player as in he doesnt play defense? how much defense did it cost him? remember his a 7ft who likes to play on the wing/perimeter/mid range, even though he doesnt gaurd the elite wings or elite bigs of the league, theres not a reliance on him from a defensive POV if his surrounded by better defenders to cover his weakness, whether its man2man defense or help defense.

his a avg defender....you also gotto remember bird wasnt a great defender also, and he was surrounded by players who cover his weaknesses, did that stop ppl puttin him into top10? i think dirk is around 12-17...he should be somewhere ahead of drob and kg, behind kobe

i dont see any current young players today that could make a case for top10 when their career ends...

[InK]

Duncan had a better cast in 03 and Hakeem had a slightly worst one then Dirk this year truth be told. Dirk ranks over KG now, no debate and is the 2nd best PF of this generation.

[pauls931]

ahead of Chris Paul that's for sure

Fixed.

[Agloco]

Pretty fair list but who was Kobe's superstar? (after shaq)
Now if you say they won without an all-star team-mate that is different. but LOL at Pau as a "superstar" ...

Wasn't Lakerfan screaming that Pau was the best PF in the league After Jim Dunnan fell off?

[stretch]

He's definitely a top 10 offensive player for sure, but most top 20 players are 2 way players for the most part. Can't really think of too many that weren't. Dirk is average AT BEST on the defensive side of the ball.

lol bird

lol magic

[jsandiego]

lol bird

lol magic

Good point. Bird & Magic are Top 10 and they were never known as great defenders.

[TDMVPDPOY]

defense didnt stop dirk and the mavs from winning 50+ games a season...his offensive output outweights the negative defense he brings on the court, but as long you have good players around him that can play defense...it just weighs it out as a team performance....

[TDMVPDPOY]

to the clown who says most of the top20 players are 2-way players

how many of them players from the 10-20 range actually won a ring as a franchise player playing 2-way?

dont give what ifs, and buts cause they had a shit team...

[crc21209]

I wouldnt put him in the Top 10 of all-time, but Top 50 for sure, maybe Top 20. As far as PF's go, he's in the Top 5.

[stretch]

ability to be a great leader > being a "two way player"

make no mistake, when Dirk needs to step up the defense, he always does. dude is not a great defender at all, but hes not nearly as bad as some make him out to be. he is more focused on saving his energy for offense (because his team generally relies on him so much offensively), and tries to avoid getting into needless foul trouble.

but there are a lot of great two-way players that are incapable leaders. KG is a perfect example. if you cant get it done when the pressure is on, and defenses clamp down on you, you simply are not a great basketball player. fact is, the goal of basketball is to score more points than your opponent, and the #1 way to do that is to put up points. defense, rebounding, all of that stuff is extremely important, but if you cant put the ball in the hole, its useless.

[bus driver]

at the bottom, before he wasnt on the list

[JamStone]

ability to be a great leader > being a "two way player"

make no mistake, when Dirk needs to step up the defense, he always does. dude is not a great defender at all, but hes not nearly as bad as some make him out to be. he is more focused on saving his energy for offense (because his team generally relies on him so much offensively), and tries to avoid getting into needless foul trouble.

but there are a lot of great two-way players that are incapable leaders. KG is a perfect example. if you cant get it done when the pressure is on, and defenses clamp down on you, you simply are not a great basketball player. fact is, the goal of basketball is to score more points than your opponent, and the #1 way to do that is to put up points. defense, rebounding, all of that stuff is extremely important, but if you cant put the ball in the hole, its useless.

"Leading" isn't always about scoring. You can lead at the defensive end of the court. It would be disengenous to argue otherwise. Putting up points can help you outscore your opponent. Not allowing your opponent to score also achieves the same goal. The two go hand in hand. What good is putting up 120 points on a team if they score 121? Same as holding the other team to 75points and only scoring 74. Scoring is the more "glamourous" or "high profile" talent. It's not necessarily the best way to lead. It might be, but it's not absolute. KG was the difference in that 2008 Celtics championship, not Pierce. And KG made his biggest impact defensively. And he absolutely was a "leader" because of his defense. Scoring 15-20 points, but also shutting the other team down defensively in the fourth quarter does the same job as scoring 30 and outscoring your opponent in the fourth quarter.


For me, I agree with most on here that Dirk likely enters the 15-20 range among greatest players all time, perhaps on the border of top 20. So I'll say anywhere in the 15-25 range. I wouldn't scream in protest if he were slotted anywhere there. I put him in the same tier, for example, as guys like Jerry West, Isiah Thomas, KG, Julius Erving, Hondo, David Robinson, Willis Reed. The championship (and winning the Finals MVP) automatically puts him in that group ahead of greats like Elgin Baylor, and Charles and Malone. Where you rank him among those guys is pretty subjective. I'd personally probably rank him ahead of several of those names I mentioned, except for maybe Jerry West and toss-up with Isiah and KG. Could go either way. I don't know. Tough call.

[FkLA]

he is more focused on saving his energy for offense (because his team generally relies on him so much offensively), and tries to avoid getting into needless foul trouble.

what a homer :lol


fact is, the goal of basketball is to score more points than your opponent, and the #1 way to do that is to put up points. defense, rebounding, all of that stuff is extremely important, but if you cant put the ball in the hole, its useless.

no, the easiest thing in basketball is putting the ball in the hole...playing defense consistently is much harder and what usually seperates good teams from championship teams. how did you nelson coached teams fare??

[FkLA]

Bird and Magic were both better all-around players btw. There was alot more to their game then just scoring. And these niggas have what 5+ titles?? Maybe Dirk can sniff the Top 10 when he accomplishes that, as of now he should probs be somewhere in the Top 20-25.

[stretch]

"Leading" isn't always about scoring. You can lead at the defensive end of the court. It would be disengenous to argue otherwise. Putting up points can help you outscore your opponent. Not allowing your opponent to score also achieves the same goal. The two go hand in hand. What good is putting up 120 points on a team if they score 121? Same as holding the other team to 75points and only scoring 74. Scoring is the more "glamourous" or "high profile" talent. It's not necessarily the best way to lead. It might be, but it's not absolute. KG was the difference in that 2008 Celtics championship, not Pierce. And KG made his biggest impact defensively. And he absolutely was a "leader" because of his defense. Scoring 15-20 points, but also shutting the other team down defensively in the fourth quarter does the same job as scoring 30 and outscoring your opponent in the fourth quarter.

Never said leading is only about scoring, but how many team leaders were defensive stalworts that couldnt score in the clutch, led their teams to NBA championships? I don't see Mutumbo, Rodman, or anyone like that being the team leaders on championship teams. They may be extremely key, but none of them have ever been looked at as the team leader. The closest to that was KG in 08 as you mentioned, and that is a ONE TIME case, and still, Pierce is often looked at as the leader of that team, every bit as much as KG was.

There is one thing that every championship team leader has in common... they can all produce points under pressure. That is the ONLY thing they have in common, which obvously speaks measures to the importance of being able to score under pressure. Some are also great passers, some are also great rebounders, and some are also great defenders. Some are even all of that. But ALL of them can find ways to produce points under pressure.

If I am building a team, I will ALWAYS build around a guy who can score and produce points consistently under pressure, before building around a guy who defends, rebounds, but cannot produce points consistently under pressure.

[Ashy Larry]

Good point. Bird & Magic are Top 10 and they were never known as great defenders.


both were great in the team defensive scheme. Magic led the league in steals a couple years but individually, they were brutal.

[TDMVPDPOY]

dirks shitty defense, you can always slot him into the sf position and dont put him on the better big on the court, surround him with players who can play defense and cover his weakness with team defensive schemes...his offensive game outweighs his avg defensive showing....hence he usually outplays them unless ur name is bruce bowen...

this finals series or this years playoffs for the mavs, you didnt see any of the other teams franchise players guarding dirk, all you see are clown who claim to be defensive stoppers getting abuse by him on the court, hence if you chuck durant, artest, odom, kobe, wade or lebron on him..they be wasting fouls and gettin into foul trouble would cost their teams to be in position to win games

[FkLA]

did this nigga just compare one-dimensional defensive specialists like rodman&mt. mutombo to kg :lol

[stretch]

what a homer :lol

how so? watch mavs games more often. you would be suprised how often Dirk is a major part of key defensive plays down the stretch in close games, and he rarely ever gets offense ran at him in the clutch. obviously hes not as bad as people think, if teams arent constantly trying to go at him.




no, the easiest thing in basketball is putting the ball in the hole...playing defense consistently is much harder and what usually seperates good teams from championship teams. how did you nelson coached teams fare??

putting the ball in the hole duing a regular season game, and putting it in the hole in pressure playoff situations against elite defenses are two completely different things. if its the easiest thing in basketball, then why the fuck did 4 of the NBAs greatest scorers (Kobe, Durant, Wade, Lebron), struggle so much to score down the stretch against the Mavs?

obviously you dont know what the fuck you are talking about


Bird and Magic were both better all-around players btw. There was alot more to their game then just scoring. And these niggas have what 5+ titles?? Maybe Dirk can sniff the Top 10 when he accomplishes that, as of now he should probs be somewhere in the Top 20-25.

im not saying Dirk is top 10, or belongs in the same sentence as Bird and Magic, but for people to say Dirk cant be seriously considered as a top 20 player because he is not a strong defender is bullshit because there are plenty of players who are widely considered top 20 that are not good defenders. and thats not mentioning the fact that, most of them arent even as deadly and versatile of a scorer as Dirk. in terms of pure scoring ability, Dirk is arguably top 5 all time, but his deficiencies on defense is what costs him majorly as is, dropping him to being probably a top 15-20 player ever.

[stretch]

did this nigga just compare one-dimensional defensive specialists like rodman&mt. mutombo to kg :lol

actually, I didn't. at all. read again, dumb ######

[TDMVPDPOY]

For me, I agree with most on here that Dirk likely enters the 15-20 range among greatest players all time, perhaps on the border of top 20. So I'll say anywhere in the 15-25 range. I wouldn't scream in protest if he were slotted anywhere there. I put him in the same tier, for example, as guys like Jerry West, Isiah Thomas, KG, Julius Erving, Hondo, David Robinson, Willis Reed. The championship (and winning the Finals MVP) automatically puts him in that group ahead of greats like Elgin Baylor, and Charles and Malone. Where you rank him among those guys is pretty subjective. I'd personally probably rank him ahead of several of those names I mentioned, except for maybe Jerry West and toss-up with Isiah and KG. Could go either way. I don't know. Tough call.

individually some of those players skillsets outweight dirks, but you dont need to be a 2-way player to win rings if you have the correct players build around you. To say a Dirk led mavs team cant beat any of those players led teams is stupid...

[Henke]

Definitely not top 10-15. It's not just the fact that he only has one championship, it's the fact that, great as scorer as he is, he's a one dimensional player. I'm not trying to rain on Mavs fans parade (honestly), but it took Bryant winning his fifth championship before the vast majority put him in the top ten. Nowitzki wins one and now he's right there? Don't be a prisoner of the moment and lose perspective.

First of all noone said that he's in the top15.

You have no room to talk about Dirk.You have 3,200 posts here and reading this forum for 2-3 years I can guarantee that at least 800 of them were about how much Dirk sucks,how big of a choke artist he's,how he'll NEVER win shit etc.

You're the guy that wrote again and again that being a big man,in order to win in this league,you need an All-Star/All-NBA caliber perimeter shot creator unless you're Hakeem 94 or Timmy 03.What happened now faggot?Who was that player in Mavs roster?

You're the racist piece of shit that brings over and over again lame arguments,like the ''white and overrated'' or the ''bloated payroll'' one just because you're butthurt of Holt being a cheap ass sob.

Just enjoy the huge shit that Dirk took all over your face,shut the fuck up and move on.

Suck it,bitch.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/multimedia/photo_gallery/1106/finalscelebration/images/061211_550_russell_nowitzki.jpg

[JamStone]

Never said leading is only about scoring, but how many team leaders were defensive stalworts that couldnt score in the clutch, led their teams to NBA championships? I don't see Mutumbo, Rodman, or anyone like that being the team leaders on championship teams. They may be extremely key, but none of them have ever been looked at as the team leader. The closest to that was KG in 08 as you mentioned, and that is a ONE TIME case, and still, Pierce is often looked at as the leader of that team, every bit as much as KG was.

There is one thing that every championship team leader has in common... they can all produce points under pressure. That is the ONLY thing they have in common, which obvously speaks measures to the importance of being able to score under pressure. Some are also great passers, some are also great rebounders, and some are also great defenders. Some are even all of that. But ALL of them can find ways to produce points under pressure.

If I am building a team, I will ALWAYS build around a guy who can score and produce points consistently under pressure, before building around a guy who defends, rebounds, but cannot produce points consistently under pressure.

Come on stretch. Don't act like KG never ever scored in the fourth quarter. And don't act like he's a defense only player. In the 2008 championship run, KG still averaged 20 PPG on 49.5% shooting. It's not like he was the equivalent to a Rodman or Ben Wallace where all he was good for was defense and rebounding.

Being a clutch scorer is great and it's something you should definitely consider. You can't use that as the sole or even main barometer. If you have a great defender who also gives you 20 points on 50% shooting but isn't a great clutch scorer, it doesn't mean you ignore or dismiss the 20 PPG or the 10 rebounds. What good is a clutch scorer if your team isn't in position to win the game late? You still have to get there in the fourth quarter.

KG was the leader of that Celtics team, not Pierce. You even admitted that by saying Pierce was "every bit as much" was, meaning KG was at the very least also the leader. Pierce was considered the closer on the offensive end. I don't think many people considered him the leader of that team, despite the fact he was on that team longer.

As for other examples of team leaders who weren't clutch scorers, you have Bill Russell, the winningest champion of all time and Ben Wallace of the 04 Pistons. The Pistons won because of their defense, not their offense. KG is in that company, except he was also a great offensive player. KG is very unique in that regard.

Would you take Jamal Crawford, considered a clutch shot maker, over LeBron James? Please tell me you would in order to support your argument.

[FkLA]

how so? watch mavs games more often. you would be suprised how often Dirk is a major part of key defensive plays down the stretch in close games, and he rarely ever gets offense ran at him in the clutch. obviously hes not as bad as people think, if teams arent constantly trying to go at him.

Im not saying the nigga is an atrocious defender, atleast not at this point in his career (he was earlier). Just that it reeks of homerism when you say shit like "he doesnt expend energy on defense bc he needs it for offense". And he doesnt get the offense ran at him because Tyson Chandler is usually guarding the opposing teams' best bigman.


putting the ball in the hole duing a regular season game, and putting it in the hole in pressure playoff situations against elite defenses are two completely different things. if its the easiest thing in basketball, then why the fuck did 4 of the NBAs greatest scorers (Kobe, Durant, Wade, Lebron), struggle so much to score down the stretch against the Mavs?

obviously you dont know what the fuck you are talking about

Yeah, the difficulty of scoring increases as you face tougher competition. But so does being able to stop teams nigga...being able to score in the clutch is extremely important, but being able to get stops down the stretch is just as important if not more. Just ask the run and gun Phoenix Suns.


im not saying Dirk is top 10, or belongs in the same sentence as Bird and Magic, but for people to say Dirk cant be seriously considered as a top 20 player because he is not a strong defender is bullshit because there are plenty of players who are widely considered top 20 that are not good defenders. and thats not mentioning the fact that, most of them arent even as deadly and versatile of a scorer as Dirk. in terms of pure scoring ability, Dirk is arguably top 5 all time, but his deficiencies on defense is what costs him majorly as is, dropping him to being probably a top 15-20 player ever.

These players that get a pass usually have a solid all-around game despite being average defenders and/or have some multiple championships. You cant say the same for Dirk so yes his defensive shortcomings are enough to drop him into the 20-25 range imho. He's definitely a Top 10 offensive player of all-time though, maybe even Top 5.

[JamStone]

individually some of those players skillsets outweight dirks, but you dont need to be a 2-way player to win rings if you have the correct players build around you. To say a Dirk led mavs team cant beat any of those players led teams is stupid...

Who said that?

[stretch]

Come on stretch. Don't act like KG never ever scored in the fourth quarter. And don't act like he's a defense only player. In the 2008 championship run, KG still averaged 20 PPG on 49.5% shooting. It's not like he was the equivalent to a Rodman or Ben Wallace where all he was good for was defense and rebounding.

No I'm not saying that at all, but to say he was a reliable crunchtime scorer would be every bit as ridiculous as it would be to say he never scored in the 4th.

KG was great in that run, no doubt, but all I said is that he was a bit of an anomaly, and not even that big of one, in being a guy who led a team to a championship, despite not really being a reliable crunchtime scorer, although he arguably was not the leader of that team either. I'd put that team more on par with the 03-04 Pistons, no one was really a clearcut leader, everyones roles were just very well defined and played well.


Being a clutch scorer is great and it's something you should definitely consider. You can't use that as the sole or even main barometer. If you have a great defender who also gives you 20 points on 50% shooting but isn't a great clutch scorer, it doesn't mean you ignore or dismiss the 20 PPG or the 10 rebounds. What good is a clutch scorer if your team isn't in position to win the game late? You still have to get there in the fourth quarter.

I agree completely. In Dirk's case, he will score all game, and score even better in the clutch. So I would much rather build a team from scratch around him, before a lot of other players, including KG. Obviously Dirk has other intangibles and such that dont get accounted for in the stat sheet, that has helped him to consistently lead teams to the playoffs, and with a LOT of differently built squads, going from run and gun, to isolation, to motion-based, with differing amounts of talent in each team. Dude brings a lot more than just scoring, as some people suggest. The mismatches he presents goes farther than people realize.


KG was the leader of that Celtics team, not Pierce. You even admitted that by saying Pierce was "every bit as much" was, meaning KG was at the very least also the leader. Pierce was considered the closer on the offensive end. I don't think many people considered him the leader of that team, despite the fact he was on that team longer.

Just in my personal opinion, that was Pierces team. Others say KG, and I won't neccesarily disagree, I can certainly see that side as well.


As for other examples of team leaders who weren't clutch scorers, you have Bill Russell, the winningest champion of all time and Ben Wallace of the 04 Pistons. The Pistons won because of their defense, not their offense. KG is in that company, except he was also a great offensive player. KG is very unique in that regard.

Russell is a bunch of crap, and the most overrated player in NBA history. Dude was just way ahead of his time, played in an era where he had by far the most stacked team of anyone, physically was ahead of virtually every player he faced, and there was what, like 8 teams in the NBA at that time?

So basically you have the 04 Pistons, and the 08 Celtics (both of which is questionable in many people's eyes to say whether Ben Wallace and KG were the clearcut leaders of their teams) as teams who won championships with their "leader" not being a crunchtime scorer. 2 teams in the past 30 years? Yeah, I'll take my chances building around a talented player who is capable of producing points in the clutch.


Would you take Jamal Crawford, considered a clutch shot maker, over LeBron James? Please tell me you would in order to support your argument.

Okay, now thats pushing it to support your own argument, by taking a top tier player, and comparing him to a 5th tier player. I never said that I would take a player that doesnt do jack shit all game but scores in the 4th, over a legit superstar. I'm talking about superstar players, period. If I chose to build a team around a superstar that is known for being a cold-blooded killer in crunchtime, as opposed to an all-around player that may be a suspect scorer when defenses clamp down, I'll take the former. It would be like the Kobe vs. Lebron comparison. IMO, Lebron is still the best player in the NBA, but if I had to build a team, especially after what he did in this series, I'm not too sure if he would be my first choice, considering you can find other well rounded players that can do what he does, but wont be relied upon to also score. For instance, if I had to choose between taking a duo of Lebron and Jamal Crawford, or Kobe and Tony Allen, I'll take Kobe and Tony Allen all day. I would rather my scorer be as elite as possible, as opposed to my defender/hustler being as elite as possible.

[stretch]

And he doesnt get the offense ran at him because Tyson Chandler is usually guarding the opposing teams' best bigman.

Actually, I saw Dirk guarding Aldrige and (especially) Gasol both quite a bit in their series, both of whom had limited success against him.



Yeah, the difficulty of scoring increases as you face tougher competition. But so does being able to stop teams nigga...being able to score in the clutch is extremely important, but being able to get stops down the stretch is just as important if not more. Just ask the run and gun Phoenix Suns.

Run and gun every bit as big of a reason why Phoenix lost. Dudes could not score in a half-court set, nor could they stop their opponent, both of which are incredibly important in basketball.

I'm not saying being able to defend is not important. My point is, defense is much more of a team concept than offense. One elite offensive player can damn near negate an entire team defense. Look at MJ, Kobe, Shaq, Bird, and a shitload of others for examples. Sure, they ultimately would need support from other players, but still were able to do quite a bit, just by themselves. Its a lot harder to build an elite offensive team without an elite offensive player, than it is to build an elite defensive team without an elite defensive player.


These players that get a pass usually have a solid all-around game despite being average defenders and/or have some multiple championships. You cant say the same for Dirk so yes his defensive shortcomings are enough to drop him into the 20-25 range imho. He's definitely a Top 10 offensive player of all-time though, maybe even Top 5.

20-25 is a little low imo, but its not that important. What is, is that Dirk finally won it all, and still has years left to go to add to it. Verdict is still not out yet.

[Henke]

As for ''where does this put Dirk amongst the greats'',dude is a top25 player.
After that,I could care less, if he's #17 or #19 or #25.

All I care is that Dirk Nowitzki is a champion,a Finals MVP and he had one of the most legendary postseason performances ever.

That said,the guys who think that Nowitzki's an average rebounder,they seriously need to do a better research.

Dude has been a very good defensive rebounder all career long,he's just below average on the offensive glass.
Yeah,this is very weird,considering that in every Mavs play he sets screens on the perimeter or he plays the decoy in the corner or he's shooting the ball.
He should just keep missing bunnies around the rim and collect his own misses,like the other ''great'' rebounders do.

As for the one dimensional shit,it's undeniable that Nowitzki cannot impact the game on the defensive end but he's not a liability.
It is what it is,he's just an average defender.
He plays defense only with his smarts because his lateral quickness/athletic ability are non existant and that's why he's looking worse than he actually is on that end.

[cheguevara]

Dirk is closing in on #2 best Power Forward to ever play the game.

[JamStone]

stretch, you said verbatim:


ability to be a great leader > being a "two way player"

My issue is that you reduced "being a great leader" to basically scoring under pressure in the clutch. You somewhat retracted that later, but that's your gist. You take Dirk because he scores in the clutch and that's the main evidence you use to show he has the ability to be a great leader.

Questions for you. Before the Mavs won it all, who would most unbiased basketball fans say is a better leader, KG or Dirk? I take issue with you equating scoring in the clutch as being a great leader. In fact, there's more evidence that KG is a better leader than Dirk. Dirk isn't even vocal on or off the court. If anything, Kidd was more of a leader than Dirk. If you want to say Dirk led by example, that's fine. But to me, you equated him scoring under pressure as leading but then dismiss other ways a player could lead, including at the defensive end.

If you argued that "clutch scoring > being a two way player" then that would be different I might disagree, but it's something I can't argue as much. And that's not what you said. You said "ability to be a great leader > being a two way player." But you haven't really provided evidence why Dirk is a great leader and KG is not. To me, one could easily argue that KG is a two way player BUT ALSO a great leader. Vocal, emotional, directing teammates on and off the court, anchoring the defense. Anchoring an elite defense takes much more leadership responsibility than scoring in the clutch with individual talent and skill. You have to lead on defense. On offense, you can just score and score. Carmelo isn't a great leader on offense just because he's a good closer. But Dwight Howard is a leader on defense.

I just think you've put several skewed wrinkles in your argument to try to prove it.

Sure, my Jamal Crawford example was extreme. But sometimes an extreme example is what it takes to show why an argument is flawed.

[TimmehC]

2nd best German behind Uwe Blab.

[stretch]

stretch, you said verbatim:



My issue is that you reduced "being a great leader" to basically scoring under pressure in the clutch. You somewhat retracted that later, but that's your gist. You take Dirk because he scores in the clutch and that's the main evidence you use to show he has the ability to be a great leader.

That wasnt my intent. I probably should have explained it better.

Point was, just being a great two-way player is not always enough. Great leadership, IMO beats just being a two-way player with average leadership.


Questions for you. Before the Mavs won it all, who would most unbiased basketball fans say is a better leader, KG or Dirk? I take issue with you equating scoring in the clutch as being a great leader. In fact, there's more evidence that KG is a better leader than Dirk. Dirk isn't even vocal on or off the court. If anything, Kidd was more of a leader than Dirk. If you want to say Dirk led by example, that's fine. But to me, you equated him scoring under pressure as leading but then dismiss other ways a player could lead, including at the defensive end.

If you argued that "clutch scoring > being a two way player" then that would be different I might disagree, but it's something I can't argue as much. And that's not what you said. You said "ability to be a great leader > being a two way player." But you haven't really provided evidence why Dirk is a great leader and KG is not. To me, one could easily argue that KG is a two way player BUT ALSO a great leader. Vocal, emotional, directing teammates on and off the court, anchoring the defense. Anchoring an elite defense takes much more leadership responsibility than scoring in the clutch with individual talent and skill. You have to lead on defense. On offense, you can just score and score. Carmelo isn't a great leader on offense just because he's a good closer. But Dwight Howard is a leader on defense.

It was probably 50/50 from the opinions I heard from non-Mavs fans.

Again, I wasnt just trying to say scoring in the clutch is the only thing that makes you a leader. But its one of the big things that separates Dirk from KG. Dirk lets his play speak. KG would talk shit, scream all game long, call people "cancer patients" but would shy away from the ball in the 4th, and brick a shitload of shots. Dirk would score points, draw doubles and kick out for open shots, and create mismatches on defense. And consistently comes through for his teammates when they need him to, whether its grabbing a key rebound, playing strong late-game defense, or most of all, hitting a clutch shot with defenders all over him.

So who actually is the better leader, despite the appearances on the court? Just because KG is vocal nonstop and gets in opponents faces, doesnt mean jack shit if he doesnt come through consistently for his teammates when they need him most, something he has always been known for failing at.


I just think you've put several skewed wrinkles in your argument to try to prove it.

Sure, my Jamal Crawford example was extreme. But sometimes an extreme example is what it takes to show why an argument is flawed.

It's not so much that it was skewed, as opposed to not being fully explained, which is my fault.

I think the question for you to consider is what makes someone a great leader in sports?

If you ask me, I would say their ability to make the game easier for his teammates, and produce for his team when they need him most. That's why IMO Carmello isn't a great leader, despite being perhaps the most complete scorer in the league, while Kobe is a great leader. Kobe makes the game easier for his teammates, Carmello doesnt.

Perhaps our personal interpretations on what a leader truly is, is what leads to our disagreement on this subject, as opposed to one of us being wronger than the other.

[JamStone]

See, your "definition" of being a great leader blurs along the lines of just being a great player. There isn't much evidence that KG isn't a great leader. Is he an obnoxious dick? Yup. But that doesn't make him not a leader. For me, great leaders do more than just lead by example. They are vocal and emotional. They are quasi-coaches to their teammates. Their passion and intensity is infectious. Being quiet and reserved and ho-hum is rarely related to leading. That's why I would say Jason Kidd is more of a leader on the Mavs than Dirk. Dirk is without a doubt the best player on the team. But I don't know he's been such a great leader for most of his career.

This season might be the first time he showed leadership qualities, like yelling at Jason Terry after that missed assignment on defense that allowed that open three by Chalmers. He screamed at a few teammates this playoff season. But that's more of a retreat from his normal demeanor for most of his career. He's never struck anyone as the guy that gets in teammates' faces to challenge and push them to become better.

To me, being a great player doesn't automatically make you a great leader.

As for who would have been considered a better leader before the Mavs won it all, I whole-heartedly disagree that it would have been about 50/50 from unbiased fans (that includes excluding KG haters). I would say it would have been something closer to like 75/25 in KG's favor. You can hate KG all you want, but he has a leadership personality. I don't think you can say the same thing about Dirk. Dirk is an unbelievably talented player. He doesn't strike me as a great leader.

[stretch]

Dirk - won championship as undisputed #1 option on his team
KG - won championship as very questionable #1 option on his team, more of a 1a/1b option at best

yet dirk isnt a great leader, simply because hes not a super vocal guy? okay. :rolleyes

I really don't hate KG at all anymore. In fact, he earned a lot of respect from me in last years run against the Lakers. Dude was the only one who was showing up when everything else was going wrong for Boston in the second half of G7.

IMO, hes the 3rd best PF of all time, behind only Timmy and Dirk.

[stretch]

As for who would have been considered a better leader before the Mavs won it all, I whole-heartedly disagree that it would have been about 50/50 from unbiased fans (that includes excluding KG haters). I would say it would have been something closer to like 75/25 in KG's favor. You can hate KG all you want, but he has a leadership personality. I don't think you can say the same thing about Dirk. Dirk is an unbelievably talented player. He doesn't strike me as a great leader.

in addition to this, while i had recently been hearing a lot more love for Dirk as a leader, even before this series (which is why I said its closer to 50/50), lets not kid ourselves... if Dirk was black, or if KG was white, this would be discussed by the general public in a COMPLETELY different light. not saying your opinion or mine would be different, but there are a LOT who would have much different opinions. if you or anyone says otherwise, thats just ignorant.

[JamStone]

Dirk's championship is greater than KG's because Dirk was definitely the undisputed #1 guy on his championship team. I still don't buy that that necessarily makes you a leader. Being vocal isn't the only thing I said. But not being vocal at all for most of his career doesn't help your argument for him being a great leader either. The only thing you have to fall back on is his talent. His talent is undeniable. Great, great player. That doesn't make him a great leader. Once again, you are blurring "great leader" with "great player."

And I while I used to be a big KG fan in the past, I hate how he acts on the court now. I think he's an ass on the court when he barks and goes after small guards. I think he's obnoxious and a douchebag. But those things don't negate his leadership abilities. His passion and intensity is contagious with his teammates. And he does help coach and mentor the younger guys on his team. You see it with Glen Davis and Rondo. KG is always in their ear. And how hard he plays is the type of lead-by-example characteristic that really exemplifies leadership. Scoring, making tough buckets isn't leading by example. Dirk making one-foot fade-away jumpers doesn't all of a sudden mean, "hey everyone else take these shots and do the same as me." That's not leadership. It's just scoring. But when someone amps it up on defense, now that can be infectious, contagious. I just really disagree with you on this one.


I'm not even going to get in a race discussion. Whether it has anything to do with this discussion or not (and I don't agree that it has much beyond ignorant people), I think it's silly to even bring it up. I don't even want to respond to it...

[dbestpro]

He is the greatest power forward to ever play the game whose team has won one championship.

[lefty]

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m320/YurkaCLS55/Funny/haters.gif

[stretch]

Dirk's championship is greater than KG's because Dirk was definitely the undisputed #1 guy on his championship team. I still don't buy that that necessarily makes you a leader. Being vocal isn't the only thing I said. But not being vocal at all for most of his career doesn't help your argument for him being a great leader either. The only thing you have to fall back on is his talent. His talent is undeniable. Great, great player. That doesn't make him a great leader. Once again, you are blurring "great leader" with "great player."

And I while I used to be a big KG fan in the past, I hate how he acts on the court now. I think he's an ass on the court when he barks and goes after small guards. I think he's obnoxious and a douchebag. But those things don't negate his leadership abilities. His passion and intensity is contagious with his teammates. And he does help coach and mentor the younger guys on his team. You see it with Glen Davis and Rondo. KG is always in their ear. And how hard he plays is the type of lead-by-example characteristic that really exemplifies leadership. Scoring, making tough buckets isn't leading by example. Dirk making one-foot fade-away jumpers doesn't all of a sudden mean, "hey everyone else take these shots and do the same as me." That's not leadership. It's just scoring. But when someone amps it up on defense, now that can be infectious, contagious. I just really disagree with you on this one.

agree to disagree. in the end, these are two of the greatest players in NBA history, and we are really fortunate to be able to have seen them play in their primes. their love for the game and love for doing whatever they can to help their team win is something more players need.


I'm not even going to get in a race discussion. Whether it has anything to do with this discussion or not (and I don't agree that it has much beyond ignorant people), I think it's silly to even bring it up. I don't even want to respond to it...

my point is that in your 75/25 opinion, there are a lot of ignorant people in there who unfortunately allow race to sway those figures. but anyone with any sort of actual logical thinking, knows how ignorant it is to say they would rather choose KG to lead their team to victory over Dirk. proof is in the pudding. Dirk has done it more, and on a far greater scale than KG has.

[Amaso]

Dirk - won championship as undisputed #1 option on his team
KG - won championship as very questionable #1 option on his team, more of a 1a/1b option at best

yet dirk isnt a great leader, simply because hes not a super vocal guy? okay. :rolleyes

I really don't hate KG at all anymore. In fact, he earned a lot of respect from me in last years run against the Lakers. Dude was the only one who was showing up when everything else was going wrong for Boston in the second half of G7.

IMO, hes the 3rd best PF of all time, behind only Timmy and Dirk.

As much as I like Dirk, I don't think you can put him ABOVE KG, probably on the same tier. Yeah KG might have been a 1a/1b option on a team, but thats only on one side of the ball. KG anchored that great Boston defense... something Dirk can't do obviously. I don't know where I have Garnett ranked on the PF list, let alone an all-time list. I don't think it's as simple as saying Garnett is better on offense than Dirk is on defense therefore he is better, because team's can usually cover up defensive deficiencies to some extent.

[JamStone]

my point is that in your 75/25 opinion, there are a lot of ignorant people in there who unfortunately allow race to sway those figures. but anyone with any sort of actual logical thinking, knows how ignorant it is to say they would rather choose KG to lead their team to victory over Dirk. proof is in the pudding. Dirk has done it more, and on a far greater scale than KG has.

My point is take away all biased fans. Take away Mavs fans and Celtics fans, Minnesota fans, and people who either love or hate either KG or Dirk, based on race or whatever other reasons. I think if you asked unbiased fans before the Mavs won it all, most would argue that KG has been more of a leader in his career than Dirk has been. Not close to a 50/50 split. If you want to agree to disagree on that point too, fine. That's what I believe. Dirk has not been considered a "great leader" most of his career. And even now, I think Kidd was more of the team leader than Dirk.


Now you didn't like my Jamal Crawford example, so I'll give you two more with comparisons of players who are at the same or close to the same overall talent.

Who would you build a team around in these two player comparisons:

LeBron James or Carmelo Anthony?

Dwight Howard or Amare Stoudemire?

Your contention revolves around building a team around the guy that can score under pressure over a great two way player. Well both Carmel and Amare are guys who can score under pressure. And LeBron and Dwight are two way players who have issues closing games, LeBron because of mental issues and Dwight because of his free throw shooting and for most of his career lack of go-to moves on offense. Based on your logic, you'd choose Carmelo and Amare. I think most people would go the other way and build their teams around LeBron and Dwight.

[jack0fspeed]

My all-time PF list would be:
Duncan - Best 2 way PF ever. 4 rings. Had good but not great supporting cast.
Petit - Don't know his game too well, but I give him a lot of credit for being the one guy to beat Russell's Celtics
Dirk - Unstoppable on offensive end. So-so defender. Good supporting cast in 2003, but not so much in other years. Led his team to a championship as franchise player. Could easily have another couple rings if he hadn't gotten hurt in 2003 and if Bennett Salvatore doesn't make a touch call at the end of G5 in 2006.
Kark Malone - Primarily offensive player. Great scorer that could run the floor, range out to 20ft and post ups. could easily have a ring or two if he didn't have to beat MJ. Played with another all-time great in John Stockton.
Elvin Hayes - Excellent offensive player and rebounder. Paired with HoF Center Wes Unseld to win his championship.
Kevin McHale - 3rd best 2-way PF all time. Played with HoF SF Larry Bird and strong supporting cast to get 3 rings.
Kevin Garnet - 2nd best 2-way PF all time. Couldn't lead a team to a championship as a franchise player. Paired with all-stars Ray Allen and Paul Pierce to eventually get his championship.
Elgin Baylor - Tremendous offensive player that often averaged > 30 ppg. Had range, post-ups and every shot in the book. Undersized at 6'5", never had a good supporting cast and no rings.

[dunkman]

Well it's not only that Dirk won the championship for the Mavs, it's also how he did it.

He completely outclassed Kobe, Durant, LeBron and Wade. The Mavs dominated against some really good teams. Plus Dirk was the only all-star of that team. That performance was very similar to what Duncan did in 2003, which would put him automatically in any all time greats list probably around #20.

Dirk is a phenomenal offensive player, an average defensive player since some time and he was always been above average rebounder. It's not easy to average 8.4 rpg in the NBA. His rebounding slipped a little bit during the regular season, but he did good in the playoffs.

I think that Dirk has left all PF's behind, except for Duncan who has better career. And Dirk is still going strong, this is his prime time. He could win again the next season. The Mavs had 'Bois and Butler injured.

[stretch]

My point is take away all biased fans. Take away Mavs fans and Celtics fans, Minnesota fans, and people who either love or hate either KG or Dirk, based on race or whatever other reasons. I think if you asked unbiased fans before the Mavs won it all, most would argue that KG has been more of a leader in his career than Dirk has been. Not close to a 50/50 split. If you want to agree to disagree on that point too, fine. That's what I believe. Dirk has not been considered a "great leader" most of his career. And even now, I think Kidd was more of the team leader than Dirk.


Now you didn't like my Jamal Crawford example, so I'll give you two more with comparisons of players who are at the same or close to the same overall talent.

Who would you build a team around in these two player comparisons:

LeBron James or Carmelo Anthony?

Dwight Howard or Amare Stoudemire?

Your contention revolves around building a team around the guy that can score under pressure over a great two way player. Well both Carmel and Amare are guys who can score under pressure. And LeBron and Dwight are two way players who have issues closing games, LeBron because of mental issues and Dwight because of his free throw shooting and for most of his career lack of go-to moves on offense. Based on your logic, you'd choose Carmelo and Amare. I think most people would go the other way and build their teams around LeBron and Dwight.

You obviously didnt read my post explaining myself a little further. Either that, or you just chose to forget.

It's not JUST about scoring well in the clutch. That was just one of the things I felt separates Dirk from KG, and the thing I used There are plenty of other factors he provides, that Amare doesnt provide over Dwight, or Carmello over Lebron.

Dwight is FAR superior at making teammates better than Amare. Lebron is FAR superior at making teammates better than Lebron. That's what sets them apart from each other.

Likewise, Dirk is superior at making teammates better than KG. In addition, he is a FAR better crunchtime player. Scoring/playmaking is the most notable area, but Dirk also steps up in areas that his game normally is not strong, such as defense and rebounding. Come crunchtime, his defense is solid, and he consistently has key rebounds. KG on the other hand has been known to crumble offensively when crunchtime hits.

If you really want, I can name more areas in which Dirk curbstomps KG. I don't think that would be neccesary, but considering you just want to take one example I mention and run with it, instead of actually thinking for yourself other ways in which Dirk leads his team in a superior manner to KG, I probably will need to make a long, organized list just for you. But no thanks, I'll let you do that yourself. You are smart enough to know Dirk affects the game in more ways than just scoring points, but for some reason choose to be ignorant right now.

[jack0fspeed]

I pretty much look at everything through the prism of ... what kind of supporting cast would you have needed to win a championship.

I could have put Barkley in there too ... as high as above Garnett. He led his team to the finals in 1993 as the main man with a supporting cast of KJ and Dan Majerle (which I would call so-so). No shame in losing to MJ. But the losing to Utah in 1997 (playing w/Olajuwon and Drexler) took him down a few pegs in my book.

[JamStone]

Likewise, Dirk is superior at making teammates better than KG.

Explain that one. Earlier, you talked about drawing double teams and kicking out to teammates and causing mismatches as if KG doesn't do that. And KG is known as a better passer than Dirk anyway. The things you say about Dirk making teammates better apply at least equally to KG, and that's just on the offensive side of the ball.

Crunchtime play favors Dirk. I won't disagree with that. Just like defense overwhelmingly favors KG. It's a matter of how much weight you put in either as to how you will decide which is the better player.

But this goes back to my question about leadership. How do any of those things relate to leadership abilities? You're using the greatness of a player and automatically translating that to leadership.

Here's your problem. You're looking at all the strengths Dirk possesses on offense and then customarily dismissing all the other things KG brings to the table and use only those strength on offense and equating them to leadership. Remember, my issue is with leadership. I have no problem with anyone thinking Dirk is a better player than KG. I'm questioning how you apply these things to Dirk being a great leader. You see, you'll say Dirk will come up big with a rebound or a defensive play when it matters. For every time Dirk might do something other than scoring a clutch basket in crunchtime, I could argue KG will do something other than getting a rebound or making a block on defense. What about KG making a clutch pass in crunchtime? How about setting a solid pick that frees up Ray Allen for the winning jumper? How about getting a huge offensive rebound for an extra possession in crunchtime. You see, your argument always reverts to and gets reduced to Dirk scoring in crunchtime. You add little extras like getting a key rebound sometimes or making a solid defensive play sometimes. I could say KG does the same thing sometimes, even hitting a clutch jumper, which he has done a few (seldom) times the last few post seasons. But you always reduce it down to scoring in crunchtime. And then you just ignore other things KG brings to the table because it's only about "scoring in crunchtime." Forget KG is a better passer. Forget he sets better picks or is a better offensive rebounder, which can be plays made in crunchtime. Forget he can be a clutch defender. To you, it's boils down to scoring in crunchtime.

I'm still waiting for how that equates to leadership.

[stretch]

Explain that one. Earlier, you talked about drawing double teams and kicking out to teammates and causing mismatches as if KG doesn't do that. And KG is known as a better passer than Dirk anyway. The things you say about Dirk making teammates better apply at least equally to KG, and that's just on the offensive side of the ball.

Crunchtime play favors Dirk. I won't disagree with that. Just like defense overwhelmingly favors KG. It's a matter of how much weight you put in either as to how you will decide which is the better player.

But this goes back to my question about leadership. How do any of those things relate to leadership abilities? You're using the greatness of a player and automatically translating that to leadership.

Here's your problem. You're looking at all the strengths Dirk possesses on offense and then customarily dismissing all the other things KG brings to the table and use only those strength on offense and equating them to leadership. Remember, my issue is with leadership. I have no problem with anyone thinking Dirk is a better player than KG. I'm questioning how you apply these things to Dirk being a great leader. You see, you'll say Dirk will come up big with a rebound or a defensive play when it matters. For every time Dirk might do something other than scoring a clutch basket in crunchtime, I could argue KG will do something other than getting a rebound or making a block on defense. What about KG making a clutch pass in crunchtime? How about setting a solid pick that frees up Ray Allen for the winning jumper? How about getting a huge offensive rebound for an extra possession in crunchtime. You see, your argument always reverts to and gets reduced to Dirk scoring in crunchtime. You add little extras like getting a key rebound sometimes or making a solid defensive play sometimes. I could say KG does the same thing sometimes, even hitting a clutch jumper, which he has done a few (seldom) times the last few post seasons. But you always reduce it down to scoring in crunchtime. And then you just ignore other things KG brings to the table because it's only about "scoring in crunchtime." Forget KG is a better passer. Forget he sets better picks or is a better offensive rebounder, which can be plays made in crunchtime. Forget he can be a clutch defender. To you, it's boils down to scoring in crunchtime.

I'm still waiting for how that equates to leadership.

Okay. Since Dirk doesnt scream, yell, get in peoples faces, and act tough, he is a lesser leader than Kevin Garnett.

You win. Congrats. Next time I play ball, I'm going to scream in the faces of my opponent every time I score, scream in the face of my teammate every time they fuck up, and punch my chest 300 times a game, so that I can be the best possible leader. Hopefully it works out for me :toast








Fuck that.


Again, I'm talking about what I want for a team if I were to build one. I would rather have a guy who cannot be denied on the offensive end, as opposed to a guy who runs around and sets great picks, gets big blocks, gets offensive rebounds, and all that shit. If I want all of that in one player, I could just get Tyson Chandler, or Andrew Bynum.

I'm not so sure why you are intent on downplaying Dirk's leadership abilities. Basically you are downplaying him because he doesnt do things that the team uses their center (in this case, Tyson Chandler) to do, or because he doesnt scream, yell, and pound his chest.

You sit here saying that all I'm doing is downplaying the other things KG does well, such as defense, rebounding, and setting picks, while you are doing the same damn thing to Dirk. Do you realize how frequently Dirk plays good defense down the stretch, gets key rebounds down the stretch, and frees up his teammates with solid picks? Or how about this... what is the #1 go-to play that the Mavs use in late game situations? Hint: its not a Dirk iso. It's a fucking pick-and-roll with Terry. And how many times has it gotten Terry open for huge, key shots that he nailed? A shitload of times.

I think I've already stated that its NOT just clutch points that Dirk puts up that makes him a great leader. But what I said that sets Dirk APART from KG, is his clutch scoring, because just like KG, he plays solid defense (not as good as KG, but still pretty solid), gets key rebounds (I've seen numerous times in head to head situations, Dirk has owned the shit out of KG when getting rebounds down the stretch), and hustles in other various ways.

[JamStone]

You still haven't told me why Dirk is a great leader. I'm still waiting. Why is Dirk a great leader? That's basically what I've been asking you like 10 times already. You respond with what resorts to he's great at scoring under pressure. Why does that make him a great leader? Then you rephrase what I say about KG by saying all I've said was that he's vocal when that's not true either.

KG gets into his teammates ears, not just by yelling, but as a player-coach type on the court. Even when KG was a 20 point scorer, he was also a 4-5 assist man as a PF. And it wasn't just out of double team kickouts. KG could actually pass like a guard. And you see that his intensity and emotion are contagious particularly on defense. That on defense, those are the type of lead-by-example traits does affect teammates. Dirk scoring in the clutch or passing out of a double team doesn't equate to leadership.

Your "what separates Dirk from KG" is bullshit. And I think you know it.

Forget everything else I wrote. Forget everything else you wrote.

What makes Dirk a great leader? I don't want "he makes teammates better by getting them open shots because he's a great scorer." I don't want "Dirk in a pick-and-roll gives Terry open jumpers." That doesn't say Dirk is a leader. Give me legit examples that show Dirk is a great leader.

Forget everything else we've discussed. Be serious right now. What in Dirk's career demonstrate that he's a great leader. Not great player. Not clutch scorer. A great leader. That is the claim I first had issues with. I want to know why Dirk is a great leader.

[ambchang]

Top ten (not in order):
Kareem
Wilt
Russell
Jordan
Magic
Bird
Moses
Duncan
Shaq
Hakeem

Next 5:
Havlicek
Kobe
Big O
Barkley
Robinson

15-20:
Dirk
Malone
McHale
Pettit
West

[stretch]

You still haven't told me why Dirk is a great leader. I'm still waiting. Why is Dirk a great leader? That's basically what I've been asking you like 10 times already. You respond with what resorts to he's great at scoring under pressure. Why does that make him a great leader? Then you rephrase what I say about KG by saying all I've said was that he's vocal when that's not true either.

KG gets into his teammates ears, not just by yelling, but as a player-coach type on the court. Even when KG was a 20 point scorer, he was also a 4-5 assist man as a PF. And it wasn't just out of double team kickouts. KG could actually pass like a guard. And you see that his intensity and emotion are contagious particularly on defense. That on defense, those are the type of lead-by-example traits does affect teammates. Dirk scoring in the clutch or passing out of a double team doesn't equate to leadership.

Your "what separates Dirk from KG" is bullshit. And I think you know it.

Forget everything else I wrote. Forget everything else you wrote.

What makes Dirk a great leader? I don't want "he makes teammates better by getting them open shots because he's a great scorer." I don't want "Dirk in a pick-and-roll gives Terry open jumpers." That doesn't say Dirk is a leader. Give me legit examples that show Dirk is a great leader.

Forget everything else we've discussed. Be serious right now. What in Dirk's career demonstrate that he's a great leader. Not great player. Not clutch scorer. A great leader. That is the claim I first had issues with. I want to know why Dirk is a great leader.

OMG

He makes his teammates better. He comes through for them when they need him most, whether its by scoring, defense, rebounds, or good picks. The team follows him, supports him, and likewise, he supports them and has their back. He holds his teammates accountable for their mistakes. He holds himself accountable for his own mistakes. He understands the importance of the "team" concept.

Happy now? I seriously did not think you would be such a dumbass that I would actually have to list out things Dirk does to show that he is a good leader. But you proved me wrong.

My question to you is, other than screaming and yelling like a moron, what does KG do to be so much better of a leader than Dirk? Or does he do basically the exact same things I listed here? Because from the things you mentioned to state your case for KG, those are basically the same things, the only difference is that KG is not as clutch of a scorer, but yells and screams a lot more. It's even more mind boggling that your posts are so fucking hypocritical, keep making accusations that I'm looking at it only from Dirk's POV, but you are doing the exact same shit, only from KG's POV.

[Slim Charles]

:lolstretch overrating the players he supposed to, nothing to see here..

:lol"dirk coming through on defense..":lol

[JamStone]

All of those things you said other than scoring, doesn't KG do the same? Why is Dirk a better leader than KG then? Because he's a clutch scorer, right? That's exactly my point all along. You reduce it to clutch scoring.

Yes or no, KG has the ability to be a great leader?

As for what KG does, I've actually listed them. It's not just yelling and screaming. He gets in his teammates ear, not just by yelling. You see him talking to his younger teammates on the court, on the bench, to get them right, to let them know when they made mistakes, to encourage them when they've done something right. His intensity and emotion, particularly defensively, are things that get his teammates to get on board with. Great defense is something that can follow that adage of "lead by example" whereas scoring in the clutch cannot. KG has been applauded as a great team leader. I haven't heard from Dirk's teammates how great of a leader Dirk. I've heard plenty of times him being praised for being a great player, not a great leader.


My question to you is, other than screaming and yelling like a moron, what does KG do to be so much better of a leader than Dirk? Or does he do basically the exact same things I listed here? Because from the things you mentioned to state your case for KG, those are basically the same things, the only difference is that KG is not as clutch of a scorer, but yells and screams a lot more. It's even more mind boggling that your posts are so fucking hypocritical, keep making accusations that I'm looking at it only from Dirk's POV, but you are doing the exact same shit, only from KG's POV.

Herein this quote lies my point and where it all started from. You're basically saying KG possesses those same leadership qualities as Dirk EXCEPT for clutch scoring. Which is what I've been driving home this whole time. Your distinction in arguing that Dirk is a better leader is that he's a clutch scorer. Being a clutch scorer doesn't make a player a great leader. It simply doesn't. And since you just admitted KG has the ability to be a great leader, it goes back to why I had issues in the first place. Your quote:


ability to be a great leader > being a "two way player"

You just acknowleged that KG has the ability to be a great leader.

So in effect, it's not about Dirk being a great leader. It's about Dirk being a better clutch scorer. See why I took exception in the first place? You admitting KG has the ability to be a great player changes that quote right there. Because then you're saying:

"ability to be a great leader + being a clutch scorer > being a two way player + ability to be a great leader"

Reduces that to:

"being a clutch scorer > being a two way player"

That's something I might not necessarily agree with, but wouldn't take nearly as much exception to.

[stretch]

:lolstretch overrating the players he supposed to, nothing to see here..

:lol"dirk coming through on defense..":lol

overrating how? saying that Dirk > KG as both a player and the leader of a team?

fact is, none of the shit Jammy says matters. KG is great and all, but dude has NOT led a team to a championship. Dirk has. In the end, that's all that matters. Dirk stuck around, and led a team to a championship, didn't have to force his way out of town to hop onto another team with 2 other star players on it. he stuck with them through thick and thin, and won a fucking title.

[stretch]

All of those things you said other than scoring, doesn't KG do the same? Why is Dirk a better leader than? Because he's a clutch scorer. That's exactly my point all along. You reduce it to clutch scoring.

You stupid fucking idiot. So you just said that all the things I mentioned, they both do. So in the end, there is something Dirk does, that KG doesnt... clutch scoring, and THAT IS WHY HE IS A BETTER LEADER. The clutch scoring in the end is what sets them apart, even though they are pretty much even overall in other areas, give and take here and there. THAT IS WHY ITS REDUCED TO CLUTCH SCORING, BECAUSE THAT IS WHERE DIRK IS UNQUESTIONABLY BETTER.

[Spurminator]

Aside from 2008, I have a lot of trouble with the claim that KG was a great leader.

Reputation or not, KG's Timberwolves days were marked by mediocre-to-poor win/loss records except for 2004, poor clutch play and a legendary temper. There was a veritable turnstyle of players coming and going from Minnesota (often by choice). Wally Z hated him, Anthony Peeler hated him, Latrell Sprewell turned down $21MM rather than come back to play with him... He punched a fucking rookie in practice...

He's certainly gotten better in that department with age, but he also has a few years on Dirk. I don't know if I'd say Dirk is the better leader yet but the Mavs have rallied around "winning it for Dirk" more than just about any team I can remember.

[JamStone]

You stupid fucking idiot. So you just said that all the things I mentioned, they both do. So in the end, there is something Dirk does, that KG doesnt... clutch scoring, and THAT IS WHY HE IS A BETTER LEADER. The clutch scoring in the end is what sets them apart, even though they are pretty much even overall in other areas, give and take here and there. THAT IS WHY ITS REDUCED TO CLUTCH SCORING, BECAUSE THAT IS WHERE DIRK IS UNQUESTIONABLY BETTER.

SMH. But you argued it's not just clutch scoring.

I don't think clutch scoring makes a player a great leader. It's your distinction why Dirk is better. But it's a faulty rational as to why Dirk is a better leader.

If clutch scoring was a mark of a great leader, Carmelo Anthony would be a great leader. Monta Ellis would be a great leader. Jason Richardson this past season would be a great leader. Clutch scoring is not the mark that distinguishes players as great leaders.

[endrity]

As Spurminator says, the notion that KG is a great leader is somewhat biased due to the Boston years. Now you can also argue that KG needed a team full of desperate veterans to feed off his energy. But the fact that many people have disliked playing with him (even Steph) should tell you how great a guy he really is. Good player though, but nowhere near a franchise player like Dirk :p:

[JamStone]

Aside from 2008, I have a lot of trouble with the claim that KG was a great leader.

Reputation or not, KG's Timberwolves days were marked by mediocre-to-poor win/loss records except for 2004, poor clutch play and a legendary temper. There was a veritable turnstyle of players coming and going from Minnesota (often by choice). Wally Z hated him, Anthony Peeler hated him, Latrell Sprewell turned down $21MM rather than come back to play with him... He punched a fucking rookie in practice...

He had a reputation as a motivator but what exactly did he do in 10 years with Minnesota that resulted in anything you could credit to great leadership?

Fair enough. I think a lot of people gave KG a pass in Minnesota because of McHale being an idiot in the front office and not having enough talent around him to truly compete. IIRC every first round the Timberwolves lost were against higher seed teams. Might have been one time it wasn't, but either most or all of them were against higher seeded teams. And when KG was given what was perceived as better talent, he helped lead that team to the best record in the league only to lose in the conference finals.

And when KG was traded and the Celtics won his very first year there because of some of the best team defense the league had seen, that sort of corroborated the idea that he was a great leader even in Minnesota despite not having much success, particularly in the playoffs.

Having teammates that dislike you doesn't make a player a bad leader, as you can say similar things about Jordan and his teammates. People don't question Jordan's leadership. It goes back to what you said about KG being a motivator. KG wasn't liked by all his teammates, but you didn't question KG bringing it every night, his desire and passion to win, or his intensity level.

But I do think you make a fair point.

[JamStone]

As Spurminator says, the notion that KG is a great leader is somewhat biased due to the Boston years. Now you can also argue that KG needed a team full of desperate veterans to feed off his energy. But the fact that many people have disliked playing with him (even Steph) should tell you how great a guy he really is. Good player though, but nowhere near a franchise player like Dirk :p:

That I wouldn't argue with. Dirk is the better franchise player as a #1 option on offense.

If stretch didn't introduce this notion that Dirk is a "great leader," I likely wouldn't have extended this discussion.

[DPG21920]

I like Dirk better, but have him behind KG just slightly. I boil it down simply: KG's offensive production was much closer to Dirk's than Dirk's defense was to KG's. That is what they both dominated and KG was much, much better at his "weakness".

[joshdaboss]

He's definitely behind Malone and Garnett. Duncan should go without saying.

[stretch]

SMH. But you argued it's not just clutch scoring.

I don't think clutch scoring makes a player a great leader. It's your distinction why Dirk is better. But it's a faulty rational as to why Dirk is a better leader.

If clutch scoring was a mark of a great leader, Carmelo Anthony would be a great leader. Monta Ellis would be a great leader. Jason Richardson this past season would be a great leader. Clutch scoring is not the mark that distinguishes players as great leaders.

this is the stupidest shit ive read

you said that KGs vocal leadership is one aspect of him being a great leader

going by your logic, since you said KG shows vocal leadership, then other guys who are vocal are great leaders, like mark madsen and jake voshkul.

cut that shit out already

i stated very clearly that there are a number of aspects that makes Dirk a great leader, and his clutch scoring is one of the aspects

[stretch]

He's definitely behind Malone and Garnett. Duncan should go without saying.

your opinion means shit. you are a beaner and gnsf. nuff said

[John Basedow]

He's definitely behind Malone and Garnett. Duncan should go without saying.

sup Harlem...relentless multi-trolling the day after :lol

[joshdaboss]

sup Harlem...relentless multi-trolling the day after :lol

It's not trolling, it's obvious. Garnett is a 2 way player. Same for Malone. Dirk is an elite jump shooter and nothing else. Only reason he has a ring is because of Miami's inexperience/lack of calls.

[joshdaboss]

your opinion means shit. You are a good-looking, logical white man and i'm a virgin. Nuff said

fify

[John Basedow]

It's not trolling, it's obvious. Garnett is a 2 way player. Same for Malone. Dirk is an elite jump shooter and nothing else. Only reason he has a ring is because of Miami's inexperience/lack of calls.

It is.

[DAF86]

Well it's not only that Dirk won the championship for the Mavs, it's also how he did it.

He completely outclassed Kobe, Durant, LeBron and Wade. The Mavs dominated against some really good teams. Plus Dirk was the only all-star of that team. That performance was very similar to what Duncan did in 2003, which would put him automatically in any all time greats list probably around #20.

Dirk is a phenomenal offensive player, an average defensive player since some time and he was always been above average rebounder. It's not easy to average 8.4 rpg in the NBA. His rebounding slipped a little bit during the regular season, but he did good in the playoffs.

I think that Dirk has left all PF's behind, except for Duncan who has better career. And Dirk is still going strong, this is his prime time. He could win again the next season. The Mavs had 'Bois and Butler injured.

You're the victim of the moment and media hype. Dirk was a monster in the playoffs and he and the Mavs proved to be better than everyboy else but Dirk didn't "completely outclassed" Wade. In fact he didn't outclassed him at all, well maybe he did off the court.

Dirk: 26 pts, 41 FG%, 9.7 rbds, 2 assts, 0.7 blks, 0.7 stls, 2.8 TO
Wade: 26.5 pts, 54 FG%, 7 rbds, 5.2 assts, 1.5 blks, 1.5 stls, 2.5 TO

Cue sensitive Mavsfan response.

[endrity]

You're the victim of the moment and media hype. Dirk was a monster in the playoffs and he and the Mavs proved to be better than everyboy else but Dirk didn't "completely outclassed" Wade. In fact he didn't outclassed him at all, well maybe he did off the court.

Dirk: 26 pts, 41 FG%, 9.7 rbds, 2 assts, 0.7 blks, 0.7 stls, 2.8 TO
Wade: 26.5 pts, 54 FG%, 7 rbds, 5.2 assts, 1.5 blks, 1.5 stls, 2.5 TO

Cue sensitive Mavsfan response.

Of course, no mention of the fact that Dallas had focused its defense on LeBron, trapping him hard of any pick and rolls, while Dirk was the main focus. Yet the 4th quarter stats say it all.

[DAF86]

Yeah, I know that for you guys basketball resumes to scoring in the 4th.

Question: did Dirk completely outclassed Wade?

[Proxy]

Can't we just base this on the fact that Dirk led his team to the finals twice, and won it once while earning FMVP honors, while KG won a ring, but was one of two second options, and has no FMVP trophy.

As a Spurs fan, Duncan's accolades are a key point to making his case valid in arguing his place against Shaq and Kobe. It should be no different for Dirk and KG.

[DAF86]

Can't we just base this on the fact that Dirk led his team to the finals twice, and won it once while earning FMVP honors, while KG won a ring, but was one of two second options, and has no FMVP trophy.

You can, but that's a very flawed argument.

[joshdaboss]

Can't we just base this on the fact that Dirk led his team to the finals twice, and won it once while earning FMVP honors, while KG won a ring, but was one of two second options, and has no FMVP trophy.

As a Spurs fan, Duncan's accolades are a key point to making his case valid in arguing his place against Shaq and Kobe. It should be no different for Dirk and KG.

There's a couple things wrong here. Garnett makes his teammates better and plays both ends of the floor, 2 things that are the staples of great players. Dirk does neither of them.

[Proxy]

You can, but that's a very flawed argument.

How so? Pierce won FMVP. If KG was so great, and a top PF all-time over Dirk, then wouldn't he have earned the award over a top 50 SG?


joshdaboss[/COLOR] (http://spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=24532);5302111]There's a couple things wrong here. Garnett makes his teammates better and plays both ends of the floor, 2 things that are the staples of great players. Dirk does neither of them.

That's bullshit. He's just as good as Duncan at making his teammates better on the offensive end. He touches the ball almost every possession and breaks the defense down through double teams. Just because his game isn't as aesthetically pleasing, doesn't mean he isn't as efficient. Your argument is pathetic.

KG is better at defense obviously, but he's not an unstoppable force like Hakeem or anything. He yells, just like Ewing did.

[joshdaboss]

How so? Pierce won FMVP. If KG was so great, and a top PF all-time over Dirk, then wouldn't he have earned the award over a top 50 SG?

No, for the same reason Parker won it over Duncan in 07. People are infatuated with scoring. Which is why Dirk is being praised right now, despite shooting terribly in the series and contributing nothing else. The real reason they won is the Heat took them too lightly, the referees, and the play of scrubs above their level.


That's bullshit. He's just as good as Duncan at making his teammates better on the offensive end.

I stopped reading here. I also lold. Hard.

[joshdaboss]

lol joshdabutthurt

joshdatruthteller

[Amaso]

You're the victim of the moment and media hype. Dirk was a monster in the playoffs and he and the Mavs proved to be better than everyboy else but Dirk didn't "completely outclassed" Wade. In fact he didn't outclassed him at all, well maybe he did off the court.

Dirk: 26 pts, 41 FG%, 9.7 rbds, 2 assts, 0.7 blks, 0.7 stls, 2.8 TO
Wade: 26.5 pts, 54 FG%, 7 rbds, 5.2 assts, 1.5 blks, 1.5 stls, 2.5 TO

Cue sensitive Mavsfan response.

That is a stupid comparison, considering Miami's defense is geared towards stopping Dirk, while essentially Wade's stats are inflated due to Dallas guarding Lebron and letting Wade go off.

[joshdaboss]

That is a stupid comparison, considering Miami's defense is geared towards stopping Dirk, while essentially Wade's stats are inflated due to Dallas guarding Lebron and letting Wade go off.

So that effects his assists, blocks and steals as well?

[Ghazi]

joshdaboss... u mad? :lmao

Dirk had an excellent series... its not always about shooting %.

[joshdaboss]

joshdaboss... u mad? :lmao

Dirk had an excellent series... its not always about shooting %.

So what else was it that he actually did well? I didn't see anything. Maybe awkwardly flop his way to free points(on jump shots) from the referees? Other than that, I'm not really certain.

[Proxy]

So what else was it that he actually did well? I didn't see anything. Maybe awkwardly flop his way to free points(on jump shots) from the referees? Other than that, I'm not really certain.

You are too biased. At this point, I hope you're trolling the Mavs fans.

I'll go ahead and bite, and say Dirk flopped just as much as, or less than the Miami trio. If Dirk was really the player you describe in your posts, then Dallas should've lost to Portland.

I'm a Spurs fan like you, but you're a homer.

[joshdaboss]

You are too biased. At this point, I hope you're trolling the Mavs fans.

I'm really not trolling. He's a good, borderline great player. The reason I say borderline is because he can do only 1 thing at an elite level. I reserve the great label for complete players.


I'll go ahead and bite, and say Dirk flopped just as much as, or less than the Miami trio. If Dirk was really the player you describe in your posts, then Dallas should've lost to Portland.

No. Dirk flops entirely more than any Heat player; not quite as much as Barea, but he's close.


I'm a Spurs fan like you, but you're a homer.

That's pretty interesting. How am I a homer if I'm a Spurs fan defending Miami? lol Makes 0 sense.

[Proxy]

I'm really not trolling. He's a good, borderline great player. The reason I say borderline is because he can do only 1 thing at an elite level. I reserve the great label for complete players.



No. Dirk flops entirely more than any Heat player; not quite as much as Barea, but he's close.



That's pretty interesting. How am I a homer if I'm a Spurs fan defending Miami? lol Makes 0 sense.

You're a homer in the sense that you can't appreciate Dirk because of your allegiance. Makes perfect sense that you don't want him to succeed due to the rivalry. Dirk flops, sure. So does everyone else.

And your definition of great should be measured by winning too.

[Proxy]

Q: When did Spursnation start negating the importance of a ring?

A: When Dirk and the Mavs got one

[joshdaboss]

You're a homer in the sense that you can't appreciate Dirk because of your allegiance. Makes perfect sense that you don't want him to succeed due to the rivalry. Dirk flops, sure. So does everyone else.

And your definition of great should be measured by winning too.

That has nothing to do with it at all. I actually like Dirk. He's a classy guy for the most part. I just wouldn't insult other truly great players by comparing them to him. Malone, for example. That would be an absolute joke to compare him to Karl Malone. To argue he's better would just prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that you never saw Karl Malone play in his prime.

[joshdaboss]

Q: When did Spursnation start negating the importance of a ring?

A: When Dirk and the Mavs got one

I don't negate the importance of it at all, but people are making crazy claims now. Let's be honest here, Terry was better than Dirk in these finals. I don't think there's really any debating that.

[Proxy]

I don't negate the importance of it at all, but people are making crazy claims now. Let's be honest here, Terry was better than Dirk in these finals. I don't think there's really any debating that.

I'm done

[Silver&Black]

i'm done

+1

[Silver&Black]

My top 5 PF of all-time

1. Duncan
2. Malone
3. Barkley
4. Dirk
5. prob KG......up for debate.

Dirk however has a great chance of becoming #2....just continue winning rings. All will pan out for him.

Congrats Dirk!!!!!

[Silver&Black]

BTW......

Anybody who says Dirk is better than Bird needs to sell me a $50 bag of whatever they're smoking. It's dry where I live.....

[Silver&Black]

yeah, dirk is #4 behind 2 ringless fucks whenever he has 2 himself..

y:lolur br:lolin=f:lolck:lold

Call me brain fucked then....I don't think it's that crazy to put dirk 4th. Before 2 days ago....He was prob #6-7. Your not jumping up that many spots to me.

A LOT of people will argue that KG is better than Dirk...are they wrong?? I can't honestly say they're right or wrong.

[Silver&Black]

yeah, dirk is #4 behind 2 ringless fucks whenever he has 2 himself..

y:lolur br:lolin=f:lolck:lold

Did I miss Dirk's other ring???
He has two???

I must be living under a rock...
http://cubedwellerfitness.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/WhatDoYouLiveUnderARock.png

[Silver&Black]

Tyson_Chandler

Why do you say that Dirk has two rings??? Are you counting his wedding ring as one???

And I'm LMFAO at your Dirk and Duncan comment. We ALL know who's #1 on the all time PF list. And I'll give you a hint...it's sure as fuck not Dirk.

BTW...I love Dirk. Especially happy to see him get HIS FIRST ring.

[FkLA]

For those of yall niggas dissing KG for what he did in Minny go back and look at those rosters. The same argument about Dirk lacking help that yall used to love to use to protect Dirk can be applied to KG, and it has more merit. Because KG never had 90 million payrolls, and he had that dumbass McHale running the team. On top of that the West was stacked at the time, I remember the Wolves being a 50 win team year in and year out yet only managing the 8th/7th seed most yrs. Those teams were supposed to lose, they simply didnt stack up to the likes of the early-mid 2000s Lakers/Spurs/Kings/Blazers/Mavs. The year he got a legit all-star caliber players in Spree and Casselll he got the 1 seed and reached the WCF, and who knows how much farther they couldve gone if not for Cassell's injury during those playoffs.

Sure the nigga wasnt the most clutch player during his years there, but all he needed was a closer like Shaq had with Kobe or Duncan had with Manu later in his career...and you had an elite team because of how great of a two way player he was. I dislike the nigga but itd be stupid to deny how great of a player he was, especially during his prime. He's still the second best PF ever by a slight margin, Dirk would have to repeat to surpass him.

But we are arguing with Mav fans, these niggas worship Dirk. Which is understandable since he got them a title but it throws objectivity on their part out the window.

[Jacob1983]

Dirk has one a championship without HCA.

[DirkDoesWork]

6 or 7 :lmao

dirk takes over and closes games better than your duncan

Had to go and fuck up the Spurs fans giving Dirk mad love

I'll be looking for you, bro

[Texas Chili Dog]

http://i56.tinypic.com/seltux.jpg
http://i56.tinypic.com/2nipcia.jpghttp://cdn3.sbnation.com/imported_assets/739183/tumblr_lmpt6f7acs1qfocge_medium.gifhttp://i55.tinypic.com/2gxhdug.jpg

[DAF86]

http://i56.tinypic.com/seltux.jpg
http://i56.tinypic.com/2nipcia.jpghttp://cdn3.sbnation.com/imported_assets/739183/tumblr_lmpt6f7acs1qfocge_medium.gifhttp://i55.tinypic.com/2gxhdug.jpg

:lmao I would love to hear what that guy has to say right now.

[DAF86]

How so? Pierce won FMVP. If KG was so great, and a top PF all-time over Dirk, then wouldn't he have earned the award over a top 50 SG?

How so? Because there's a lot of evidence that proves that wining finals MVP doesn't make a player better than other. Parker winning finals MVP over Duncan in '07 beign one of the better examples. Also Billups has a finals MVP, would you say that he's a better player than Lebron James, Dwight Howard or many others?

Pierce may have been the finals MVP but KG was without question the best player of that Celtics team, he was third or second in Reg season MVP voting that year and he was the best Celtic performer during the whole playoffs. You could change Pierce for a lot of (well maybe not a lot but some) other players in the league and Boston would have still won the championship, while there isn't a single other player that you could have put in that team instead of KG that would have made them as good as they were.

[dirk4mvp]

FkLA is upset as FUCK (:madrun) that it took KG 9 seasons to get out of the 1st round (one of the 1st round losses involving Dirk drop kicking him from the top rope head to head). Fret not, not every player can carry a team of no other all stars to a championship. That is reserved for some of the best players ever.

[dirk4mvp]

How so? Because there's a lot of evidence that proves that wining finals MVP doesn't make a player better than other. Parker winning finals MVP over Duncan in '07 beign one of the better examples. Also Billups has a finals MVP, would you say that he's a better player than Lebron James, Dwight Howard or many others?

Pierce may have been the finals MVP but KG was without question the best player of that Celtics team, he was third or second in Reg season MVP voting that year and he was the best Celtic performer during the whole playoffs. You could change Pierce for a lot of (well maybe not a lot but some) other players in the league and Boston would have still won the championship, while there isn't a single other player that you could have put in that team instead of KG that would have made them as good as they were.

:lmao

Spin it, MF'er, spin it!

[The Gemini Method]

Why is it nowadays necessary to rate someone before their career is finito? Dirk, without question, will be the greatest foreign born player. However, he's not done yet, so there are still more layers to his greatness yet to be exposed. He's going to be top-25 when it's all done if you believe in ranking players. There is no doubt he's a first ballot HoF. Most critics spent his whole career trying to judge him and they crucified him when he couldn't quite make it to the top. Now, they're singing his praise and he is finally vindicated.

[DAF86]

:lmao

Spin it, MF'er, spin it!

WTF? KG was without question the best and most important player of that Celtics team, I've never said otherwise. What Am I spinning?

[dirk4mvp]

Having the opinion that KG was "without question" the best player on the 08 Celtics in the first place is retarded enough. Pierce was the one outplaying LeBron in game 7 and getting the best of the Lakers in the Finals w/o their starting center.

But as long as you can find something to satisfy your terrible player x > Dirk shtick, I guess revising history is ok.


lol manu (at any point in his career) > Dirk

[DAF86]

If you don't think KG was the best player of that Celtics team you don't know shit about basketball.

You are probably one of those guys that overrate offense and underrates defense and cryied about the Mavs getting Chandler instead of Jefferson.

[Ashy Larry]

http://i56.tinypic.com/seltux.jpg
http://i56.tinypic.com/2nipcia.jpghttp://cdn3.sbnation.com/imported_assets/739183/tumblr_lmpt6f7acs1qfocge_medium.gifhttp://i55.tinypic.com/2gxhdug.jpg


lol @ overhyped foreign prospect .......




Winners and losers at the '98 draft

by Dan Shanoff <======= dumbfuck twitter account: http://twitter.com/#!/danshanoff


Posted: Thu June 25, 1998

Winner: Roshown McLeod
Go ahead and criticize the Hawks for taking the Dookie small forward far too early, but give McLeod credit for playing his way into first-round guaranteed money



Loser: Nazr Mohammed
After all the cutaways to a visibly dejected Mohammed in the draft's "green room," you were almost rooting for the guy to get picked. Almost. If Mohammed had dropped into the second round, it would have sent a strong message to other underclassmen thinking about jumping to the NBA.




Winner: No. 1 pick Michael Olowokandi
The affable "Kandi Man" can hungrily eye endorsement deals. Mr. Olowokandi? Hershey's, line one. Mars, line two.


Loser: Houston backup point guard Brent Price
From "The Price is Right" to "The Bryce is Right."




Winner: Jessie Mae Carter, Robert Traylor's grandma
No one at the draft was as happy as the Tractor's biggest—and most ubiquitous—fan.



Loser: Ron LaFrentz, Raef's dad
If you watched the TNT draft broadcast, what was all his talk about the elk-hunting in Colorado? TNT's bewildered Craig Sager mercifully cut off the interview.




Winner: Rick "Half Full" Pitino
Super swingman Paul Pierce fits perfectly into the Celtics' rabid style.




Loser: Paul "Half Empty" Pierce
Once tabbed to go as high as No. 2, Pierce was still around for the Celtics to nab him at No. 10. In just 40 minutes, he lost millions in guaranteed-contract money.




Winners: International players
Four stars from foreign countries were picked in the first round. "He Got Game" translates nicely into many languages.




Losers: Preps
Forget "Stay in School." How about "Scared Straight?"




Winners: The Bucks
After trading away No. 4 draft-pick Stephon Marbury last year, the Bucks get it right in '98 by stealing the marketable and talented Robert Traylor from the Mavs for an overhyped foreign prospect.




Losers: The Grizzlies
Didn't Vancouver draft a point guard last year? Antonio Daniels was a bust—and got shipped out of town last night. Vancouver GM Stu Jackson is praying Mike Bibby works out better.




Winner: Scoring guard Jason Williams
Soaring stock lifted Florida outcast to No. 7. Thin Sac backcourt means he'll have the shots all to himself. Think of vintage rookie Allen Iverson—with a better knack for passing.




Loser: Scoring guard Larry Hughes
Speaking of The Answer, Sixers coach Larry Brown must face this question: How will he find enough shots to go around for Iverson and this electrifying draft pick?




Winner: TNT analyst Rick Majerus
Brought refreshing candor and levity to the draft broadcast, but he looked uncomfortable—and uncharacteristic—in a suit.




Loser: Dallas GM Don Nelson
Nellie has revamped the Mavs' roster like an NBA equivalent to recently deposed Sunbeam exec "Chainsaw Al" Dunlap. After a bold draft-night trade with the Bucks, Nelson better pray he can sign Dirk Nowitzki, his enigmatic German acquisition.




Winner: Prep poster child Al Harrington
New Pacer eager to learn. Bird, Mullin, Miller, Jackson will be great teachers. No pressure to perform right away.




Losers: Prep posers Rashard Lewis and Korleone Young
Blame their handlers, blame a get-rich-quick society, blame Li'l Penny. These two second-rounders, just weeks removed from their prep days, gambled on the dream of being an NBA first-round pick and lost.




Winners: Orlando and Houston war rooms
With three picks each in the first round, the pressure was on. These teams delivered: Orlando got big, Houston shored up a shaky perimeter game.



Loser: Bulls draftnik Jerry Krause
Corey Benjamin can dunk, but contrary to popular Chicago belief he ain't no Jordan.




And the Biggest Losers: Grizzlies fans at the draft
After enthusiastic participation, they had to sit by idly as the announcement was made that their hometown hero, Suns point guard Steve Nash, was traded to Dallas, quashing hopes he'd be coming to Vancouver during the offseason.

[dirk4mvp]

If you don't think KG was the best player of that Celtics team you don't know shit about basketball.

You are probably one of those guys that overrate offense and underrates defense and cryied about the Mavs getting Chandler instead of Jefferson.

No, but you can keep making shit up since that's your m.o. in the first place.

Just admit you're wrong and retarded and we can all move on.

[DAF86]

No, but you can keep making shit up since that's your m.o. in the first place.

Just admit you're wrong and retarded and we can all move on.

Are you saying that if I search through ST I won't find a single post of you or one of your trolls dissing the Chandler trade?

lol at Mavsfans blamig others of making shit up.

[dirk4mvp]

:lmao moving goal posts is the only thing you have now

:cry KG was WITHOUT QUESTION the best player on the 08 Celtics

:cry I bet all you look at is offense

:cry I'm making this thread about Al Jefferson now because I don't have anything else.


lol manu > Dirk

[DAF86]

:lmao moving goal posts is the only thing you have now

:cry KG was WITHOUT QUESTION the best player on the 08 Celtics

:cry I bet all you look at is offense

:cry I'm making this thread about Al Jefferson now because I don't have anything else.


lol manu > Dirk

lol saying you didn't diss the Chandler trade
lol now avoiding the question
lol arguing that KG wasn't the best player of that Celtics team
lol blaming people of making shit up
lol then making shit up to troll
lol not knowing shit about basketball

[Venti Quattro]

:lmao I would love to hear what that guy has to say right now.

Traylor? He's dead.

[DAF86]

Traylor? He's dead.

The guy that wrote that.

[dirk4mvp]

lol saying you didn't diss the Chandler trade
lol now avoiding the question
lol arguing that KG wasn't the best player of that Celtics team
lol blaming people of making shit up
lol then making shit up to troll
lol not knowing shit about basketball

The sooner you can admit you're fucking retarded and only clinging to KG is the best player on the 08 Celtics without question routine because it backs your terrible player x > Dirk shtick, the better.

Also can you link anything negative I said about not getting Al Jefferson?

[DAF86]

The sooner you can admit you're fucking retarded and only clinging to KG is the best player on the 08 Celtics without question routine because it backs your terrible player x > Dirk shtick, the better.

Also can you link anything negative I said about not getting Al Jefferson?

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=4505972


:smchode:

There's also a Mono thread saying that he quits on the Mavs (:lol) because of the trade where you scoff Ghazi's "homerness" by saying that he probably thinks it was a good trade. And many others but I'm too lazy to look it up.

BTW, I say KG was the best player of that Celtics team because he was the best player of that Celtics team, do you disagree with this?

[dirk4mvp]

Also can you link anything negative I said about not getting Al Jefferson?

Confirmed for being retarded for not being able to read.


And many others but I'm too lazy to look it up.

Convenient.



Anyway, is there a reason you changed what the original topic was about to Al Jefferson? Are you admitting you're retarded for saying KG was without question the best player on the 08 Celtics?


lol manu > Dirk

[Texas Chili Dog]

Here's another good one:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/1998/draft/si/power.html

"Why he's The Man: This virtually unknown European exploded onto the scene at the Nike Hoop Summit during Final Four weekend in San Antonio. He dominated the game with 33 points (6-12 FG, 2-3 3-pt. FG, 19-23 FT) and 14 rebounds in a 104-99 International Select Team victory. Initially was thought headed to college (he visited Cal and Kentucky), but instead entered the draft; wavered the last few of weeks but did not withdraw his name. Nowitzki has an extremely aggressive, versatile offensive game. He can score inside or step out and hit the three. A good ballhandler, he can take it to the hole (as evidenced by free throw total at Hoop Summit). Very polished in all facets. Will have teams ruing the day they bypassed him. Fellow German Detlef Schrempf was called the best import since the Volkswagen; Nowitzki's coach says, "Here comes the Porsche."

At best, he's the next: Keith Van Horn.

And if I'm wrong, he's: Cherokee Parks. "

-------------------------------------------------

What's funny is that the scout or whatever person wrote that has a good feeling for how good Dirk is...and then compares him to a scrub like Van Horn. :lol Of course, Van Horn was in the thick of an amazing college career at Utah. So at that time, it seems like a great comparison. But wow, looking back on it...not so much. At least it's better than the other one. :lol

[DAF86]

lol using semantics to try to save face
lol poor basketball knowledge

[dirk4mvp]

lol poor basketball knowledge

:lol from manu > Dirk and KG was without question the best player on the 08 Celtics

[Ashy Larry]

twitter account: http://twitter.com/#!/danshanoff (http://twitter.com/#%21/danshanoff)

[DAF86]

:lol from manu > Dirk

You know that's a thing you guys twisted to argue, because you can't argue the conventional way.


and KG was without question the best player on the 08 Celtics

Yes, a knowledgeable NBA fan knows this.

[DAF86]

What's funny is that the scout or whatever person wrote that has a good feeling for how good Dirk is...and then compares him to a scrub like Van Horn. :lol Of course, Van Horn was in the thick of an amazing college career at Utah. So at that time, it seems like a great comparison. But wow, looking back on it...not so much. At least it's better than the other one. :lol

You have to consider that this was written in the times where international players were thought as lesser players just for the fact of beign born/formed outside of northamerica.

[jag]

Dan Shanoff went full retard back in '98.

[JamStone]

Why is it nowadays necessary to rate someone before their career is finito? Dirk, without question, will be the greatest foreign born player. However, he's not done yet, so there are still more layers to his greatness yet to be exposed. He's going to be top-25 when it's all done if you believe in ranking players. There is no doubt he's a first ballot HoF. Most critics spent his whole career trying to judge him and they crucified him when he couldn't quite make it to the top. Now, they're singing his praise and he is finally vindicated.

You think Dirk will surpass Hakeem Olajuwon?

[Axe Murderer]

I would put Dirk right behind Rasheed Wallace.

After all, Sheed did it on both ends, while Irk was only average on defense

[Findog]

Dan Shanoff went full retard back in '98.

He knows as much about basketball as AC Green did about getting laid.

[DMC]

You guys are defining superstar by popularity, not by effect on the game. Pau is why the Lakers won the b2b recently.

How does Melo and Amare effect the game? They were swept in the 1st round by people who aren't even on the superstar list (Paul Pierce, Rajon Rondo and Ray Allen). If that can happen, how are these two "superstars"? Popularity, that's all.

[DMC]

1. Tim
2. Karl
3. KG
4. Charles

.
.
.
.


. Dirk

[Findog]

wait wasn't pierce the finals mvp in 08?

To me, those guys are 1.5 options and Allen was a #2 Robin backing them up. Plus every man on that roster busted his ass on the defensive end. Garnett anchored the defense and was a leader in the locker room (something Pierce could not do), whereas Pierce could create his own shot and you could run the offense through him at crunch time (something KG could not do).

When it comes to winning a title, there's more than one way to skin a cat, but one common denominator is you have to be a good defensive team and one great player.

[FkLA]

FkLA is upset as FUCK (:madrun) that it took KG 9 seasons to get out of the 1st round (one of the 1st round losses involving Dirk drop kicking him from the top rope head to head). Fret not, not every player can carry a team of no other all stars to a championship. That is reserved for some of the best players ever.

I hate KG, why would I be upset? And I love how yall niggas used to love to use the lack of help excuse for Dirk but conveniently ignore the horrible circumstances KG had in Minny...and yea your right not everyone can carry a team with no all-stars. Dirk is an all-time great, probably Top 25 player and 3rd best PF ever which is why he was able to. That and he had a 90 million payroll and very solid defenders to cover his average D, this wasnt a TD or Dream performance were they anchored both sides of the ball.

[FkLA]

To me, those guys are 1.5 options and Allen was a #2 Robin backing them up. Plus every man on that roster busted his ass on the defensive end. Garnett anchored the defense and was a leader in the locker room (something Pierce could not do), whereas Pierce could create his own shot and you could run the offense through him at crunch time (something KG could not do).

When it comes to winning a title, there's more than one way to skin a cat, but one common denominator is you have to be a good defensive team and one great player.

I know its not a big deal to you and youre just glad to get that title...but who would you rate higher Fin, KG or Dirk? And where would you rank Dirk in an all-time list??

[dirk4mvp]

Dirk led an injury riddled team to a title against a team with 2 top 5 players. KG can't come close to something like that. Hell, he had to have Bynum out to win his. You ain't takin that away from the Diggler.

[Proxy]

Dirk won his 2 ships with a worse supporting cast than Duncan ever won with. Duncan wouldn't have beaten lebron and wade with 33 or 34 year old jason terry and 38 year old kidd as his main supporters :lmao

What did he do in '03? Duncan would have won with a few of the teams Dirk lost with.

[Cuppycake Gumdrop]

What did he do in '03? Duncan would have won with a few of the teams Dirk lost with.

I'm pretty sure he got hurt in a series that Dallas almost took to a Game 7 without him.

[Proxy]

How so? Because there's a lot of evidence that proves that wining finals MVP doesn't make a player better than other. Parker winning finals MVP over Duncan in '07 beign one of the better examples. Also Billups has a finals MVP, would you say that he's a better player than Lebron James, Dwight Howard or many others?

Pierce may have been the finals MVP but KG was without question the best player of that Celtics team, he was third or second in Reg season MVP voting that year and he was the best Celtic performer during the whole playoffs. You could change Pierce for a lot of (well maybe not a lot but some) other players in the league and Boston would have still won the championship, while there isn't a single other player that you could have put in that team instead of KG that would have made them as good as they were.

Well we have to use a little common sense here. The Billups thing is stretching it... it's a poor man's version of the Horry argument. That Pistons team was an anomaly.

...but you make valid points, and I agree with you on KG's importance to the Celtics that year. I don't think him finishing 2nd in MVP voting is a telling story though. Dirk has finished among the top 3 in voting plenty of times. Every other point you make about KG's performance that year is factual. I would argue that every point you made for KG is also an accurate description of Dirk's performance this year.

KG plays defense, of course. He played/plays better defense than Dirk ever did, sure. Both are 20 and 10, HOF calibur. He never played offense at the level Dirk did/does... as a Spurs fan, I'm a big believer in defense, but you have to acknowledge at some point, that Dirk is one of the few players in the history of the NBA who's offense can be ranked among the tier of unstoppable. That in itself should alter the scales from tipping to KG's favor due to his stellar defense and Dirk's lack thereof, over to the German's favor for being a one-man offense.

Secondly, as a Spurs fan, I've always prided on Duncan's accolades. When people want to argue against Duncan being the greatest PF ever, he always has the hardware to make up for the lack of aestheticism in his game. If we're going to argue Dirk vs KG, then I'm not about to change my philosophy. Dirk has a FMVP for a reason, and that was because he was the leader of his team. KG was the backbone of the defense, and a dominant low post presence, but he was not the closer, he was not the first option, and he was a secondary leader along with Ray Ray, and under Paul. I'm sure it helps to have Perkins next to you as well.

If KG had won with Minny, this would be a different argument, but he won on a team in which he shared leadership, and on a team that was cheaply made in the same model that this year's Heat were. The Celtics and Heat don't have 3 all-star caliber players, they have 3 Hall of Fame caliber players. Dirk stayed with his team through bad times, albeit a better owner, he has to be given extra credit for sticking with Dallas and winning without a second all-star.

[Proxy]

I'm pretty sure he got hurt in a series that Dallas almost took to a Game 7 without him.

talking about Duncan

[Amaso]

After thinking about it, I'd say it's easier to build a championship team around Dirk. Yes, KG is a good offensive player who can anchor a defense, but there's nothing like having a guy you can go to late in ball-games that is unguardable... just have to hope he misses. When you are spending max money on KG, you need another all-star calibur perimeter player who can create his own shot late in ball-games.

[Killakobe81]

You guys are defining superstar by popularity, not by effect on the game. Pau is why the Lakers won the b2b recently.

How does Melo and Amare effect the game? They were swept in the 1st round by people who aren't even on the superstar list (Paul Pierce, Rajon Rondo and Ray Allen). If that can happen, how are these two "superstars"? Popularity, that's all.

Yep, it was all him 5x champion Kobe and double that champ Phil didnt have shit to do with it ....:wakeup

[FkLA]

Dirk led an injury riddled team to a title against a team with 2 top 5 players. KG can't come close to something like that. Hell, he had to have Bynum out to win his. You ain't takin that away from the Diggler.

One of whom has clearly been exposed as a mental midget. KG did go head to head against two Top 5 players in Shaq & Kobe in the 04' WCFs and pretty much singlehandedly pushed them to six hard fought games...nigga was even playing PG bringing the ball up the court bc of Cassell's injury. Not much worse than how Dirk fared against Shaq & Wade in 06' tbh. :)

Props to the Diggler for his title but his body of work still doesnt measure up to KG's.

[Proxy]

One of whom has clearly been exposed as a mental midget. KG did go head to head against two Top 5 players in Shaq & Kobe in the 04' WCFs and pretty much singlehandedly pushed them to six hard fought games...nigga was even playing PG bringing the ball up the court bc of Cassell's injury. Not much worse than how Dirk fared against Shaq & Wade in 06' tbh. :)

Props to the Diggler for his title but his body of work still doesnt measure up to KG's.

Dirk just finished leading his Mavs to a title a la Duncan in 03, without an obvious all-star calibur 2nd option.

Dirk is the greater player of the two.

[FkLA]

Dirk just finished leading his Mavs to a title a la Duncan in 03, without an obvious all-star calibur 2nd option.

Dirk is the greater player of the two.

Would yall niggas stop with the retarded a la Duncan 03' or a la Dream 95' comparisons. Timmy and Olajuwon are two of the best defensive players ever, they anchored those defenses on top of carrying the offenses. They truly carried those teams on their back. Dirk carried this Mavs team offensively, thats it. Chandler, Marion, Stevenson, and probably even Kidd had a bigger impact defensively than Dirk. He was still the best player on the team but stop with the stupid 03'/95' comparisons tbh.

[DMC]

Yep, it was all him 5x champion Kobe and double that champ Phil didnt have shit to do with it ....:wakeup

Kobe = 0x championships without Shaq or Pau. Shaq was a superstar. Kobe isn't as good as he was during the 3peat. That means Pau is a superstar. Nothing after Shaq, nothing before Pau, 3 consecutive Finals appearances after "acquiring" Pau. Do the math.

[Proxy]

Would yall niggas stop with the retarded a la Duncan 03' or a la Dream 95' comparisons. Timmy and Olajuwon are two of the best defensive players ever, they anchored those defenses on top of carrying the offenses. They truly carried those teams on their back. Dirk carried this Mavs team offensively, thats it. Chandler, Marion, Stevenson, and probably even Kidd had a bigger impact defensively than Dirk. He was still the best player on the team but stop with the stupid 03'/95' comparisons tbh.

Never said anything about offense or defense. The comparison lies in not having a valid second option. Nigga.

[FkLA]

Never said anything about offense or defense. The comparison lies in not having a valid second option. Nigga.

When you say a la Duncan 03' it kind of suggests both sides of the ball, because well thats what Duncan did in 03'. And he didnt have the luxury of having a valid second option but he did have a $90+ million payroll with the right players around him to cover his deficiencies...especially on the defensive end. Something KG never had in Minny, take that into account before proclaiming Dirk>KG for the sole reason that he led a team with no legit #2 scorer to a title.

[Proxy]

When you say a la Duncan 03' it kind of suggests both sides of the ball, because well thats what Duncan did in 03'. And he didnt have the luxury of having a valid second option but he did have a $90+ million payroll with the right players around him to cover his deficiencies...especially on the defensive end. Something KG never had in Minny, take that into account before proclaiming Dirk>KG for that sole reason.

not for the sole reason, but it is one. My extended response is #217.

[JoeTait75]

Dan Shanoff went full retard back in '98.

Dan Shanoff isn't any less retarded today, either.

[FkLA]

Never said anything about offense or defense. The comparison lies in not having a valid second option. Nigga.

You make a point about Dirk being one of the best offensive players ever, which I would agree with. But what about KG being one of the best defensive players ever? And probably a Top 5 two way player ever??Just like Dirk has the ability to be a one-man offense KG has the ability to be a one-man defense.

As for the hardware argument...KG made that 08' team the great defensive team that they were, he carried them defensively and added about 20 ppg on the other end. Dirk carried this 11' Mavs team on his back offensively. Is there really such a big difference between the importance each player had in their respective teams run?? I dont really see it. Its easy to simply go by who got the FMVP but look at the whole picture, the entire regular season and playoffs not just one series. KG was the best player on that Celtics team.

Boiled down: KG has been an all-world defender throughout his career on top of providing 20-25 ppg. Dirk has been an all-world scorer and clutch performer. Both have a ring as the best player on their respective teams. I'll give the slight edge to KG.

[dirk4mvp]

One of whom has clearly been exposed as a mental midget. KG did go head to head against two Top 5 players in Shaq & Kobe in the 04' WCFs and pretty much singlehandedly pushed them to six hard fought games...nigga was even playing PG bringing the ball up the court bc of Cassell's injury. Not much worse than how Dirk fared against Shaq & Wade in 06' tbh. :)

Props to the Diggler for his title but his body of work still doesnt measure up to KG's.

Yeah and before that WCF, it took him 9 seasons to get out of the 1st round.

And his body of work certainly does stack up to KG's.

[Proxy]

You make a point about Dirk being one of the best offensive players ever, which I would agree with. But what about KG being one of the best defensive players ever? And probably a Top 5 two way player ever??Just like Dirk has the ability to be a one-man offense KG has the ability to be a one-man defense.

As for the hardware argument...KG made that 08' team the great defensive team that they were, he carried them defensively and added about 20 ppg on the other end. Dirk carried this 11' Mavs team on his back offensively. Is there really such a big difference between the importance each player had in their respective teams run?? I dont really see it. Its easy to simply go by who got the FMVP but look at the whole picture, the entire regular season and playoffs not just one series. KG was the best player on that Celtics team.

Boiled down: KG has been an all-world defender throughout his career on top of providing 20-25 ppg. Dirk has been an all-world scorer and clutch performer. Both have a ring as the best player on their respective teams. I'll give the slight edge to KG.

The turning point in our views is how good KG's defense is. While I agree that he's stellar, and a top defender of all time, I feel his persona overrates it a tiny bit. Our views on KG are also different in ranking him top5 versatility-wise.

Boiled down (imho): I feel Dirk's special offensive talents make up for his lack of defense when compared to KG. At this point, both come out even. I feel, because Dirk was the sole leader, and is extremely clutch, I give him the nod, since we have Pierce and Ray doing the 4th quarter scoring.

I'll go ahead and agree to disagree with you though. We both agree that the gap between the two is slight, and we're both making valid points, imo. Glad to have an actual debate with someone on this board, as it rarely remains civil.
:flag:

[Findog]

I know its not a big deal to you and youre just glad to get that title...but who would you rate higher Fin, KG or Dirk? And where would you rank Dirk in an all-time list??

I think it's basically a toss up at this point between Dirk and KG. You can make a case for either KG > Dirk and Dirk > KG and not be wrong.

I know in his prime KG could you get 21 a game but he was NEVER somebody who you could run your offense through at crunch time. I worry that 50 years from now people will look at Duncan and KG's stats and essentially conclude they were about the same when we know for sure that Duncan at his prime was better than KG at his.

In the case of both of them, something is lacking - KG's inability to consistently create for himself in the last minutes of a game and Dirk being a bad defender for a large stretch of his career. Dirk has improved on defense to the point that I would say he's a good team defender and there is usually one guy on the other team you can hide him on. So building around them requires getting somebody who can do what they can't. KG needed Pierce as a shot creator and a crunchtime scorer. Dirk needed Chandler as somebody who could anchor the defense in the paint.

[21_Blessings]

wait wasn't pierce the finals mvp in 08?

Pierce didn't deserve that Finals MVP over Ray Allen. Not after his 6 point game 3. Allen was the guy hitting the clincher at the end of game 4. And Garnett/Allen's effort in game 6 blew the Lakers out really early.

That MVP should have went to Allen and then KG.

[dirk4mvp]

:lol so now there's even people who though Ray Allen was more important to that team than KG.

lol daf

[21_Blessings]

In the case of both of them, something is lacking - KG's inability to consistently create for himself in the last minutes of a game and Dirk being a bad defender for a large stretch of his career. Dirk has improved on defense to the point that I would say he's a good team defender and there is usually one guy on the other team you can hide him on. So building around them requires getting somebody who can do what they can't. KG needed Pierce as a shot creator and a crunchtime scorer. Dirk needed Chandler as somebody who could anchor the defense in the paint.

To be fair, Dirk needed to Terry to carry someone of that crunch time scoring load. Else Miami wins that series in 5 or you're playing game 7 in Miami. He's Dirk's Ray Allen.

[21_Blessings]

:lol so now there's even people who though Ray Allen was more important to that team than KG.

lol daf

Not really. KG made that defense what is was. It was his team. Pierce/Allen were just better late game offensive options.

Finals MVP measures one series. Not total team importance.

[FkLA]

The turning point in our views is how good KG's defense is. While I agree that he's stellar, and a top defender of all time, I feel his persona overrates it a tiny bit. Our views on KG are also different in ranking him top5 versatility-wise.

Boiled down (imho): I feel Dirk's special offensive talents make up for his lack of defense when compared to KG. At this point, both come out even. I feel, because Dirk was the sole leader, and is extremely clutch, I give him the nod, since we have Pierce and Ray doing the 4th quarter scoring.

I'll go ahead and agree to disagree with you though. We both agree that the gap between the two is slight, and we're both making valid points, imo. Glad to have an actual debate with someone on this board, as it rarely remains civil.
:flag:

The gap between the two is indeed slight, so fair enough. Agreed to disagree. :toast


I think it's basically a toss up at this point between Dirk and KG. You can make a case for either KG > Dirk and Dirk > KG and not be wrong.

I know in his prime KG could you get 21 a game but he was NEVER somebody who you could run your offense through at crunch time. I worry that 50 years from now people will look at Duncan and KG's stats and essentially conclude they were about the same when we know for sure that Duncan at his prime was better than KG at his.

In the case of both of them, something is lacking - KG's inability to consistently create for himself in the last minutes of a game and Dirk being a bad defender for a large stretch of his career. Dirk has improved on defense to the point that I would say he's a good team defender and there is usually one guy on the other team you can hide him on. So building around them requires getting somebody who can do what they can't. KG needed Pierce as a shot creator and a crunchtime scorer. Dirk needed Chandler as somebody who could anchor the defense in the paint.

The Godfather has spoken. Yall Mav niggas with absolutely no objectivity and who feel KG vs. Dirk isnt even a debate should take note.

[dirk4mvp]

who has ever said isn't even a debate?

[Texas Chili Dog]

BEOtfHSzU98

[FkLA]

who has ever said isn't even a debate?

Pretty much all the people in this thread that have said KG>Dirk have said its close, and only give a slight edge to KG. Most of yall Mav niggas other then The Godfather have responded by calling those same people idiots, butthurt, angry, or saying its just a shtick. Those things dont exactly show that yall niggas think its something thats up for debate.

[dirk4mvp]

Someone saying KG was unquestioned the best player on the 08 Celtics is an idiot, though.

[FkLA]

Someone saying KG was unquestioned the best player on the 08 Celtics is an idiot, though.

Why?He anchored that defense and was second in scoring for his team (trailing Pierce by less than a point) in the regular season. Then followed it up by anchoring the defense and leading his team in scoring in the playoffs. The lack of Finals MVP doesnt change the fact that he was the best player on that team.

[Ice009]

Would yall niggas stop with the retarded a la Duncan 03' or a la Dream 95' comparisons. Timmy and Olajuwon are two of the best defensive players ever, they anchored those defenses on top of carrying the offenses. They truly carried those teams on their back. Dirk carried this Mavs team offensively, thats it. Chandler, Marion, Stevenson, and probably even Kidd had a bigger impact defensively than Dirk. He was still the best player on the team but stop with the stupid 03'/95' comparisons tbh.

I'd have to agree. I love defense first over all OFFENSE and people time and time again overlook defense and fall in love with offense.

Hakeem and Tim were on another level. THEY DOMINATED ON BOTH ENDS AND CARRIED THEIR teams to the Championship. BOTH ends of the court. Bill Russell even said after '03 or '05 that Tim maybe the most complete player he's seen because of his play on both ends of the court. People like Bill Russell notice these things, but the average fans seem to only look at the offensive side of the ball.

Dirk did it offensively with A LOT of help defensively. You couldn't even say he is in the top 4 defensively on his own team.

Not to take anything away from Dirk, but I'd rate Dirk's performance 3rd behind those two. I absolutely loved the way Dirk played in these playoffs. One of the all time greatest performances ever. He really was AWESOME.

[Ice009]

I don't know what thread to put this in, but can anyone tell me what Rick Carlisle is talking about here : http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=6660685

He said there is 11 players in NBA history that have been 10 time All-Stars, League MVP and Finals MVP. He said Dirk is the 11th.

He listed 10 players with Dirk being his 11th, but he didn't mention Tim Duncan, Shaq or Hakeem who have all done it too. WTF?

I've had a few drinks and not sure if I am missing something here, but It's very disrespectful of Carlisle to prop up Dirk and completely fucking miss out Tim, Shaq and Hakeem who all have more rings.

[Sportstudi]

I don't know what thread to put this in, but can anyone tell me what Rick Carlisle is talking about here : http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=6660685

He said there is 11 players in NBA history that have been 10 time All-Stars, League MVP and Finals MVP. He said Dirk is the 11th.

He listed 10 players with Dirk being his 11th, but he didn't mention Tim Duncan, Shaq or Hakeem who have all done it too. WTF?

I've had a few drinks and not sure if I am missing something here, but It's very disrespectful of Carlisle to prop up Dirk and completely fucking miss out Tim, Shaq and Hakeem who all have more rings.

One guy on dallas-mavs posted that list, too.

Players with at least 10 all-star appearances, MVP, and Finals MVP.

Wilt
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan
Bird
Kobe
West
Moses Malone
MJ
Dirk

I think it ain't complete and obviously a few are missing. Mistake by Carlisle, I think. For instance, where's Kareem? Additionally, West never was the MVP of the regular season.

[Ice009]

One guy on dallas-mavs posted that list, too.

Players with at least 10 all-star appearances, MVP, and Finals MVP.

Wilt
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan
Bird
Kobe
West
Moses Malone
MJ
Dirk

I think it ain't complete and obviously a few are missing. Mistake by Carlisle, I think. For instance, where's Kareem? Additionally, West never was the MVP of the regular season.

Carlisle says he mentioned Dirk being one of the greatest players ever and then it sounds like he tries to use this stat to prove Dirk is one of only 11 players to do this.

Watch that video clip he names 10 players and none of those 3 that he mentioned was Tim, Hakeem or Shaq. That's why I am asking wtf he is talking about. He must be smoking that same shit Pippen is smoking because it's disrespectful leaving out those three and trying to prop Dirk up higher by doing so.

[endrity]

There are about 12 other players aside from Dirk in that list I think.

Nonetheless, to chime in on the debate. I think the issue is simple, you pay 20 million a dollar to the guy that carries you in the last five minutes of a close game, not to the guy that plays hot potato with the ball. That's the key Dirk > KG argument. The fact that KG does a few things better than Dirk, doesn't mean those things are necessarily as important as scoring (assists, rebounds).

2006 Marion was a monster statistically, 20 and 8, with great percentages, plus being one of the most versatile defenders the league has ever seen. You still take Melo as your building block if you are a GM. You can fill the rest of the roster needs with the 8-10 million dollar contracts. But they key guy? He has to deliver with the game on the line.

At the end of the day scouts are not traveling to the most distant corners of the world to find the new Tony Allen or Bruce Bowen. They are travelling there to find the new Dirk. That's the elite skill that about 4-5 people on the planet have and that NBA teams want to put their hands on.

[endrity]

Carlisle’s evaluation of some key individuals:

The coach made mention of virtually everyone on the roster. He said of Jason Kidd, “I wouldn’t bet against greatness. … his DNA is all over this thing.’’ He called Shawn Marion “our best athlete.’’ He said J.J. Barea “is a fighter … with incredibly big balls.’’ He said Tyson Chandler is “an extremely special player.’’ But he saved his highest praise for Dirk Nowitzki, wanting to be so certain to properly frame the moment that he pulled from his pocket a list of “the 13 guys in NBA history who’ve been league MVP, Finals MVP and 10-time All-Star. Bill Russell, Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson,

[ohmwrecker]

This championship makes up for the one he should of had in '06 (not to mention '07). In my estimation he should stay about where he was before this season.

[endrity]

pretty much well said, and exactly why i have dirk above even TD on my list. Dirk would have 4 rings or more with TD's supporting cast. hell, if we don't get screwed in 06, maybe we win and don't have a mental meltdown the following year and he has 3 anyway, with jason terry as his best sidekick.

I can't make that argument. TD delivered over and over again. Don't let his demeanor fool you. Guy was a killer on the court. I don't care for the 5>4, to me TD is the top player of his generation.

It's
TD
Kobe
Shaq (though he's a bit older).
Dirk
KG

Too bad T-Mac's back gave on him. He could have been there. I loved the guy's game.

[endrity]

This championship makes up for the one he should of had in '06 (not to mention '07). In my estimation he should stay about where he was before this season.

which was?

A lot of Dirk's perception was built on the idea that he couldn't ring. So if you think he already had one in 06, than to you he already was a legend?

[ohmwrecker]

which was?

A lot of Dirk's perception was built on the idea that he couldn't ring. So if you think he already had one in 06, than to you he already was a legend?

I wouldn't say "could not", I would say "did not". He had two really good opportunities in back2back seasons to get it done and he failed to do it. It might hurt him a little that it happened at a time when the Lakers collapsed and the Spurs declined, but he will be considered one of the best of this generation. Still behind Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Garnett . . . but I might put him above Wade now. I think he made up for '06 in that regard. He's definitely only 2nd to Kobe as a pure scorer though.

[dirk4mvp]

Spurs declined and Lakers collapsed.

ok.

[endrity]

I wouldn't say "could not", I would say "did not". He had two really good opportunities in back2back seasons to get it done and he failed to do it. It might hurt him a little that it happened at a time when the Lakers collapsed and the Spurs declined, but he will be considered one of the best of this generation. Still behind Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Garnett . . . but I might put him above Wade now. I think he made up for '06 in that regard. He's definitely only 2nd to Kobe as a pure scorer though.

Wade is not his generation though. The other guys are. Wade will be compared to the 03 draft class forever, and some of the guys that followed like Howard and CP3. And if you're holding Dirk accountable for missing out on those opportunities there are two things I'd like to say:

1) The other guys also missed out. Kobe in 04 and 08, as well as the big quit-job in 06. Duncan in 04 and 06. Shaq, pretty much every year he didn't win because he was to lazy to get in shape. All of them missed out ....

2)... except KG. To miss out on an opportunity you need to get there first. And KG rarely got there. So he is firmly behind Dirk in my book. He is greatest no.2 in the history of the game, but he's not a legit franchise player. The others all were.

[Venti Quattro]

Lakers got swept. Destroyed, not collapsed.

The Spurs got... lol 8.

[ohmwrecker]

Spurs declined and Lakers collapsed.

ok.

I would say that's pretty accurate. The Spurs have been on a slow decline for a few years now. They fought the young, physical Grizzlies hard, but they didn't have the guns, gas or legs to overcome.

The Lakers got swept (by another veteran team) coming off a championship season. I would call that a collapse.

[DPG21920]

Dirk4MVP, what do you think of Tyson's argument that Dirk is ahead of Duncan?