Did we win the Kidd trade?

[endrity]

After all these years I can't decide. I need an opinion on that.

[Isitjustme?]

iswydt

[DAF86]

How do you know you wouldn't have won more than one championship by now with Harris on the team?

[endrity]

I don't know, that's all I am saying. A player who has been traded again since 08, could certainly help us achieve multiple championship.

[DAF86]

Or that you wouldn't have won it this year too with Harris instead of Kidd?

[DAF86]

I don't know, that's all I saying. A player who has been traded again since 08, could certainly help us achieve multiple championship.

Exactly you don't know, all we know is that the trade at that moment made the Mavs worst.

[mavsfan1000]

We'll never know I guess. But Kidd definitely brought us some confidence. I think Harris would've been a little more turnover prone against the Heat which would be costly.

[frodo]

win-win for both teams imho. the nets were going rebuilding mode so a decent young nigga + picks would make more sense to them than a then 35yr old all-star imho.

[NickiRasgo]

Yeah I agreed to what frodo has said, it's a win-win situation.

[TJastal]

How do you know you wouldn't have won more than one championship by now with Harris on the team?

How do you know your brain still functions? Have you had an EEG recently?

[redzero]

We'll never know I guess. But Kidd definitely brought us some confidence. I think Harris would've been a little more turnover prone against the Heat which would be costly.

How good are the Mav's chances of winning it all, now that they are up 4-2? Do you think they will find a way to blow it?

[TJastal]

We'll never know I guess. But Kidd definitely brought us some confidence. I think Harris would've been a little more turnover prone against the Heat which would be costly.

Do you think Harris would have given you even a 1/3 of the defense that Jason Kidd gave you? Kidd allows you to use guys like Barea and Terry out there. Harris would have gotten torched out there by Wade & Lebron, or at the very least created major matchup problems.

[pauls931]

Kidd brought stability. Old, but plays within his game and doesn't get rattled. A less experienced guard might be shaking in his boots thinking about the big 2 or 3...

[mavsfan1000]

Do you think Harris would have given you even a 1/3 of the defense that Jason Kidd gave you? Kidd allows you to use guys like Barea and Terry out there. Harris would have gotten torched out there by Wade & Lebron, or at the very least created major matchup problems.
Harris would allow you to start Stevenson at shooting guard as Harris could carry more of the offense than Kidd. But Kidd's defense was good in game 6. No doubt about that.

[JamStone]

I tend to think the Mavs did win the trade. There are intangible things Kidd brought. And Harris didn't exactly play like an elite PG since the trade. Played okay, put up solid numbers for bad teams. But he didn't ever play to the level where rational Mavs fans truly regret the trade.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

The amazing ball movement Dallas has wouldn't exist if they had Harris instead of Kidd, it would be more of the Avery Johnson "Everyone take turns going 1 on 5" offense.

[Isitjustme?]

The amazing ball movement Dallas has wouldn't exist if they had Harris instead of Kidd, it would be more of the Avery Johnson "Everyone take turns going 1 on 5" offense.

That was like a leftover from Nellie Ball. Nellie always liked to find the mismatch and exploit it. Guy was a fucking loser tbh. Its a fraud he as the wins record.

[endrity]

I tend to think the Mavs did win the trade. There are intangible things Kidd brought. And Harris didn't exactly play like an elite PG since the trade. Played okay, put up solid numbers for bad teams. But he didn't ever play to the level where rational Mavs fans truly regret the trade.

Jammy, it was kind of satirical question dude. But hey :toast to you, your comments throughout the playoffs have been pure gold especially the ones with LeBron in them.

[Nathan89]

I thought the Mavs lost big on this trade but they our big winners now that they won a ring. Lets be honest, best case scenario with Harris is one ring. With Harris you might win one ring. With Kidd we know definitively the Mavs win a ring.

On top of that Kidd was huge for the Mavs throughout the entire playoffs. TBH, it was quite impressive.

[JamStone]

Jammy, it was kind of satirical question dude. But hey :toast to you, your comments throughout the playoffs have been pure gold especially the ones with LeBron in them.

My bad. I have a bad habit of answering joke or troll posts very seriously. I don't know why. It's like I can't help myself.

[TJastal]

With Harris you get a lot less ball movement and he's a high volume, low% chucker. Plus all the defensive matchup problems he'd cause. Sure you can start Stevenson with him but what about the rest of the game? You gonna play those two together the whole game? There goes all your flexibility. Kidd is a versatile defender that essentially makes matching up a breeze. Hell, I'd even take JJ Barea's efficient scoring any day of the week over Harris' ballhogging without even skipping a beat.

[tmtcsc]

Kidd reinvented his game by improving his 3 pt shot. His desire to win stayed the same but he adjusted to compliment his new team. Yes, you won. Kidd has stayed healthy.

Devin Harris is a nice player and that's about it.

[mavsfan1000]

With Harris you get a lot less ball movement and he's a high volume, low% chucker. Plus all the defensive matchup problems he'd cause. Sure you can start Stevenson with him but what about the rest of the game? You gonna play those two together the whole game? There goes all your flexibility. Kidd is a versatile defender that essentially makes matching up a breeze. Hell, I'd even take JJ Barea's efficient scoring any day of the week over Harris' ballhogging without even skipping a beat.
Harris developed some bad habits since joining the Nets and now the Jazz. He was playing the right way with Dallas.

[dirk4mvp]

Kidd has taken turns guarding Kobe, Westbrook, Durant, LeBron, and Wade at times in the playoffs at a ripe age of 38. Harris would've gotten his shit pushed in by all of those players.

[endrity]

To be fair, the Mavs got a bit lucky.

The sudden emergence of Barea under Carlisle gave the Mavs the penetrating guard that they lost with Harris. I remember the series against the Hornets, the Mavs offense was so rigid. Some of the guys hadn't learned to play with Kidd yet, some like Howard never will, but the Mavs also missed that dimension. It's very important that they were able to find a guy like that with JJ.

[clambake]

Kidd has taken turns guarding Kobe, Westbrook, Durant, LeBron, and Wade at times in the playoffs at a ripe age of 38. Harris would've gotten his shit pushed in by all of those players.

this

[crc21209]

I think Kidd should retire, tbh. Why not? He's 38, and just won his first NBA title. Go out on top. If he comes back, I think it might actually hurt the Mavs and will eventually lead to Mavs fans hating the shit out of him ala Laker fans with Fisher....

[TJastal]

I think Kidd should retire, tbh. Why not? He's 38, and just won his first NBA title. Go out on top. If he comes back, I think it might actually hurt the Mavs and will eventually lead to Mavs fans hating the shit out of him ala Laker fans with Fisher....

Tbh, I don't see much of a drop off in the guys' game. He's in great shape and most of his game is just mental. He doesn't have to carry the scoring burden, just sit and play catch with his teammates until one of em finds an open shot... He'll easily play till he's 40 IMO.

Dirk otoh I don't know about his game looks like its starting to teeter.

[crc21209]

Tbh, I don't see much of a drop off in the guys' game. He's in great shape and most of his game is just mental. He doesn't have to carry the scoring burden, just sit and play catch with the basketball. He'll easily play till he's
40.

Dirk otoh I don't know about his game looks like its starting to teeter.

Why force it? Just go out on top ala David Robinson. Best way to go out in my opinion....

[pass1st]

Why deal with ifs when you won it all

[dirk4mvp]

Kidd will thrive in his backup role to Deron Williams.

[stretch]

all that matters is that in the end, both players had their chance to have a major effect on this team winning a championship. Kidd came out on top. Harris didnt.

Kidd trade = win for the Mavs

bullsfan1000 can fuck herself

[Jose Canseco]

Kidd did a decent enough job on Wade. But I do think a few things helped him. Tyson Chandler as an interior presence helped to some degree. And having a scrub guys like DeShawn Stevenson and Shawn Marion switch over, even if just for short stretched, also helped. Wade still got off at times. Kidd did a solid job, but if the Heat played smarter, I think that could have been a more exploitable match-up that could have tipped the scales in Miami's favor. Going forward, how confident are you that Kidd can maintain a high level of defensive ability on elite guards, especially when he's the only option on the court at the time (when he's paired with Terry or Barea). It will be interesting to see what the Mavs do to strengthen guard depth defensively, or if they'll just keep everyone and stick with that.

[LnGrrrR]

You won a championship with his help, so that's an automatic yes.

[dunkman]

Kidd make his team mates better and he shots better now. He still plays some defense too. He usually plays well in the playoffs, for the Mavs he's much better than Harris.

The Mavs added many quality players, it was a matter of time to have the right combination, their coach is good, they have the best NBA player, they drafted well, Cuban spent a lot, in the end they succeeded.

[mariners]

I think Kidd will play out his contract (which means just this upcoming year) and retire. No way we win the title with Harris

[Ghazi]

yes

[Darrin]

More to the point, did this vanquish the mistake of letting Steve Nash go in 2004?

[endrity]

More to the point, did this vanquish the mistake of letting Steve Nash go in 2004?

I'd say reaching the 06 Finals already did that.

[mariners]

More to the point, did this vanquish the mistake of letting Steve Nash go in 2004?
It was a mistake no matter what results have happened since 04.

[mavsfan1000]

We won the championship. That's all that matters. The what ifs are getting tiresome. I'm willing to stop talking about Harris now. We won the ring (unless Cuban changes his mind lol). That's all that matters.

[Red Hawk #21]

Kidd is the 2nd Best PG of all time. Devin Harris got owned by Stuart Tanner.

/thread
Ysv3v7uXblw

[JamStone]

Kidd is the 2nd Best PG of all time.

Kidd has a decent argument, but it's debatable. You have Isiah of course. If you're talking pure PGs, you have to mention Stockton whether you think he's overrated or not. And depending if you consider him a PG, you got Oscar. Kidd's in the conversation but I don't think I'd put him at #2 among PGs.

[tlongII]

You won. Kidd's 3 point shooting makes the difference.

[DMC]

You won a ring, so yes, you won. Nothing else matters.

[Findog]

More to the point, did this vanquish the mistake of letting Steve Nash go in 2004?

Cuban decided that he couldn't win a title with Dirk and Nash on the floor together. At that point in their careers they were atrocious defensive players ( Dirk has improved greatly in this respect). Nash was a 31 year old PG with a history of injuries and Dirk was a 25 year old big, so they decided to use Nash's salary slot on Dampier. It was the right idea in theory, and despite being wildly overpaid, I think Dampier was a useful player defensively and we probably wouldn't have reached the 2006 Finals without his defense and rebounding, but his effort and production really tailed off to the end of his tenure here when he lost his starter's job to Haywood.

But if it was a mistake to essentially take Dampier over Nash, then it was rectified by getting Chandler with Damp's expiring contract. Without Chandler, we don't win a title. So in a way, even when Cuban made a mistake (signing Dampier), it paid off eventually.

[Findog]

Of course that is the great What If: What would have happened if Cuban made a reasonable offer to Nash and kept him? I tend to believe that Nash would have continued to be the same kind of borderline All Star in Dallas than the franchise player he was in Phoenix. I think he was more of a focal point in D'Antoni's system in Phoenix whereas Dallas has always been built around Dirk.

[Findog]

Harris had one great year since the trade but he was putting up numbers on a bad team: empty calories if you think about it when his usage rate went up. Since then he's been traded again and his defense has tailed off.

All the credit in the world has to be given to Kidd for reinventing himself and finding a way to be useful at the age of 38. He's lost a lot of his athleticism. Without his 3-point shot, he'd be out of the league.

[LnGrrrR]

Kidd has a decent argument, but it's debatable. You have Isiah of course. If you're talking pure PGs, you have to mention Stockton whether you think he's overrated or not. And depending if you consider him a PG, you got Oscar. Kidd's in the conversation but I don't think I'd put him at #2 among PGs.

*cough cough Magic Johnson cough cough*

[JamStone]

What are you coughing at? The post I responded to talked about Kidd as the second best PG. #1 is not even debatable. Why would I mention him if he's already #1?

[LnGrrrR]

What are you coughing at? The post I responded to talked about Kidd as the second best PG. #1 is not even debatable. Why would I mention him if he's already #1?

Derp a derp. Totally misread that. My bad.

And I don't think Kidd displaces Isiah or Stockton, tbh. Both of them are more worthy of the 2 and 3 spot, in my eyes.

[endrity]

Oscar is 2. That's not debatable. Stockton is 3, though I can see how the rings push Isiah to 3rd for some people. Kidd is 5th. Cousy 6th and after that it gets a bit blurry. Nash is somewhere in the top 10 with Frazier and the Pearl probably. CP3 has a chance to get there of course. I don't know about Rose. Will we remember him as a PG, or as slightly more pass-friendly AI?

[JoeTait75]

I'd put Isiah ahead of Stockton without thinking twice. People forget how dominant Isiah could be and was, especially early in his career.

I think Isiah is actually a little underrated because a.) he was at his best before the Pistons became a title team, b.) his being the best player on those title teams was overshadowed by the Bad Boys image and c.) he was always in the shadow of Bird, Magic and MJ.

[endrity]

I'd put Isiah ahead of Stockton without thinking twice. People forget how dominant Isiah could be and was, especially early in his career.

I think Isiah is actually a little underrated because a.) he was at his best before the Pistons became a title team, b.) his being the best player on those title teams was overshadowed by the Bad Boys image and c.) he was always in the shadow of Bird, Magic and MJ.

I'd say he suffers a bit from the "Billups syndrome". Yes he was the best player on those Pistons, but they were very much a great team like the 04 Pistons rather than a good cast built around a great individual. But I can see why people can put him above Stockton. It's not something I will argue to defend.

[Findog]

Isiah was a great player, not a very, very good player.

[DMC]

Isiah was a great player, not a very, very good player.

^This

Those who just read names on a page and try to rank them are almost always missing the boat on this. Zeke was incredible, very dominating. He cannot be dismissed with the wave of a hand because of the newer, more "now" and exciting group.