Dirk or David Robinson? [Archive] - SpursTalk.com Forums

sandman

06-14-2011, 01:47 PM

Why would you want to compare a center against a power forward?

Power Forward in name only. He plays the game like a Small Forward.

Dirk is one of the greatest offensive talents of his generation. But his all around game has always been the talk of debate.

Just from a statistical point of view:

His career year, when he either set or came close to setting all of his career highs was in 2004-05:

PPG: 26.1
RPG: 9.7
APG: 3.1
SPG: 1.2
BPG: 1.5

DRob's career year came in 1993-94, his 5th year in the league:

PPG: 29.8
RPG: 10.7
APG: 4.8
SPG: 1.8
BPG: 3.3

Incidentally, DRob was avering 12 RPG and 4 BPG for his career coming into this season , so while it was a 'career' year from an overall statistical viewpoint, he actually dipped in two categories.

The point, Dirk has proven to be one of the elite scorers of his generation, while DRob was considered one of the greatest defensive players in the history of the league. They may offset each other on their respective ends of the floor, but DRob did have a better all around game than Dirk. Even in the playoffs this year when he was the Finals MVP, his scoring increased 5ppg compared to the regular season, but his rebounds, assists, steals and blocks were right in line with his regular season averages.

DRob was a career 21ppg/11rpg/3bpg player, even with the last four years of his career being below 15ppg and 9rpg.

Dirk is a career 23ppg and 8rpg player, with his rebounding steadily dropping off over the last four years to 7rpg this year.

But it is apples and oranges, because they are two different types of players in two different positions.

If I'm rebuilding a team? DRob. If I'm looking for the missing piece to take a team over the top? Dirk. And that takes nothing away from Dirk or his accomplishments. He has proven his elite status in the league. But as a scorer, not an all around player.

Spurminator

06-14-2011, 01:53 PM

If only Dennis Rodman had been more Tyson Chandler and less... Dennis Rodman.

G-Dawgg

06-14-2011, 02:36 PM

If only Dennis Rodman had been more Tyson Chandler and less... Dennis Rodman.

I disagree... I think Rodman helped Robinson have 2 of his best seasons. Rodman enabled Robinson to win his MVP

Gagnrath

06-14-2011, 02:50 PM

I disagree... I think Rodman helped Robinson have 2 of his best seasons. Rodman enabled Robinson to win his MVP

Imagine what Rodman would have been if he was concentrating on being an upstanding human being, and a dedicated basketball player.... I think we would be talking about a top 50 player all time.

He seems like a fun guy and was a good player but the dude is/was a headcase.

Ghazi

06-14-2011, 02:51 PM

Dirk :)

Gagnrath

06-14-2011, 03:06 PM

I really like both players, I think though that Robinson brought more to a team overall so I would have to rank him higher.

ambchang

06-14-2011, 03:53 PM

Robinson. Not only because he is my favourite player of all time, but because Robinson was ridiculously underrated throughout his career.

Of all the people, I would have thought that Dirk fans would understand what Robinson went through with his career. Up until this year's playoff run, Dirk Nowitzki was roundly criticized for being a choker, and a player who was unable to carry a team to post season success.

While there are certainly chokers in this game (Karl Malone comes to mind), neither Dirk Nowitzki and Robinson were them. Those two were simply victims of some very flawed teams.

Dirk Nowitzki is a player who requires another big man to do the dirty work for him (rebound, defend the paint, guard the opposing team's best big), but would not get in the way offensively (Chandler), he requires someone to distribute the ball for him on the perimeter (Kidd), and a slashing scorer to compliment him (Terry).

Robinson is a player who requires a decent shooting PG (never had one), a bunch of three point shooters (Elliott, maybe Chuck Person/Dale Ellie, but they didn't spend enough time with Robinson), and a supporting rebounder (Rodman when sane). He got that in partial chunks in his career, and never really had the support he needed.

The Spurs didn't have good outside shooters for the most part (especially in the post season), have a PG you don't have to guard outside of 18 feet, and teams just learned to cram the paint to guard Robinson.

I guess what I am trying to get at is, if Robinson had the right team around him, there would be no question that he could have won a championship as the centre piece. look at his rookie year when he had Larry Brown, Cummings and Strickland, they went pretty deep into the playoffs. Look at his supporting casts and his coaches since then, Jerry Tarkanian, Bob Hill, Lucas, 2 of these three coaches couldn't get another head coaching gig in the NBA after the Spurs, and Lucas didn't fare particulary well elsewhere either.

One cannot use the sole championship Dirk won as the be all and end all in deciding Robinson vs. Nowitzki, but rather look at all the circumstances that both were in, and look at their games.

Robinson was one of the best defensive players of all time (top 10 probably), and is no weakling on offense. Dirk is one of the best offensive players of all time (I would say top 10 to 15), and is mediocre on defense.

I would pick Robinson.

ernest787

06-14-2011, 04:15 PM

^^^agree

People always forget that drob won a scoring title

Dude had a legit offensive game and was a monster on defense

Findog

06-14-2011, 05:09 PM

TD 21

06-14-2011, 05:11 PM

"They're different players, who play different positions", while technically true, ignores the reality. And that is, they're both 7-1 (Carlisle claims Nowitzki is 7-1 or 7-1 1/2). Nowitzki has no excuse to not at least be a competent defender/rebounder. It's different with Barkley, who's 6-4 1/2, which gave him virtually no chance to be a shot blocker/plus defender.

Robinson, statistically, is one of the most underrated and well rounded players of all-time. I value all around play too much to put a one dimensional player ahead of him. That's the same reason why I still have Garnett ahead of Nowitzki.

Borat Sagyidev

06-14-2011, 05:16 PM

Mavs fans who even consider this have delusions of grandeur. Dirk wouldn't even get a shot up with David or Hakeen guarding him for that matter. Heck, Malik Rose could shut him down in his prime and then posterize him on the other end.

Cheers for winning the NBA championship finally and not having to go through a young Lakers or Spurs squad. Just as many young people could take Bill RusseLl down now.

Juggity

06-14-2011, 05:58 PM

The fact that Dirk is 7 feet tall and can barely play defense is pretty disgraceful really.

David Robinson was the last player in the league to put up a quadruple double and regularly was a beast on both ends. When Dirk starts getting close to that let me know and I'll consider him in the same sentence.

Agloco

06-14-2011, 06:01 PM

Why would you want to compare a center against a 7 foot shooting guard?

Fixed

Who would you rank higher all time?

Dirk :)

Well Dirk was the best player on a championship team, something Robinson cannot say.

On the other hand, Robinson was dominant on both ends and had the misfortune of playing during Jordan and Hakeem's prime.

Ask yourselves the age old question then:

You're starting a franchise..........who do you take?

ChuckD

06-14-2011, 07:47 PM

Dirk only dominated one end of the floor, David both.

/thread

endrity

06-14-2011, 07:53 PM

Proxy

06-14-2011, 08:23 PM

Dirk only dominated one end of the floor, David both.

/thread

21_Blessings

06-14-2011, 08:53 PM

Trolling aside, The Admiral, easily. He was a ridiculous force on both ends of the floor.

There would be no question whatsoever which guy a team would draft if they both came out the same year.

21_Blessings

06-14-2011, 08:56 PM

DUNCANownsKOBE

06-14-2011, 09:00 PM

If only Dennis Rodman had been more Tyson Chandler and less... Dennis Rodman.
It didn't help that D-Rob chased Rodman around with a bible.

Findog

06-14-2011, 09:08 PM

Dirk has evolved into a decent defender. He will NEVER make the All Defensive team, but anybody who says he is an absolute zero on the defensive end doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about.

I agree Robinson was elite on both ends of the floor and a team would draft him over Dirk if they had the choice of them as 21 year olds.

21_Blessings

06-14-2011, 09:14 PM

32 year old Robinson was better than 32 year old Dirk too. D-Rob was still a DPOY type talent at the time and and an efficient 20ppg+ scorer. His brilliant work on Shaq in 99 is proof as much

But I imagine Dirk's game will age much better given his perimeter preference and style. So he can easily make up some ground on the back-end of his career.

21_Blessings

06-14-2011, 09:39 PM

Basically, if I'm Pop/Cuban:

I'm drafting David.

Given the signing choice of Dirk/Admiral at 26, I'm going with David again. Mainly because adding a guy like that instantly makes you a top 10 defensive team. You could surround him with a bunch of mid-level guys and still have an effective D.

Both are free agents at 31 and want a 5 year deal, I'll go with Dirk. Historically guys like Robinson do not age gracefully and once they lose that spring, their effectiveness declines dramatically. With Dirk, his jumper isn't going to leave him with age and he'll still be able to get his shot over most anyone with his unique build and skill set. His triple threat work is one of the best I've ever seen for a player his size.

my2sons

06-14-2011, 10:02 PM

GoodOdor

06-14-2011, 10:16 PM

last time i checked drob got two rings and the is something dirk cannot say

Drob failed again and again as a number 1 option. Dirk won his ring as the clear cut number 1 on his team.

1 ring+finals mvp>2 rings as a side kick.

Blackjack

06-14-2011, 10:24 PM

One can only imagine what a prime Dave would have accomplished with the benefit of competent coaching and a Cuban payroll.

Dave may be the most underrated player - elite player - ever.

ernest787

06-14-2011, 10:25 PM

as previous posters have already stated it's hard to compare the 2 based on rings and number 1 options status, because Drob never had the supporting cast that Dirk had around him.

GoodOdor

06-14-2011, 10:27 PM

One can only imagine what a prime Dave would have accomplished with the benefit of competent coaching and a Cuban payroll.

Dave may be the most underrated player - elite player - ever.

Dave had the teams and the coaching to win it all - he was a choker.

Interesting that his stats, unlike with other greats, went down in the post season....instead of up.

It probably had to do he was a face up player - much easier to plan an effective D against someone like that that, say, Duncan.

That being said, he was an excellent D player for pretty much all of his career, and that should count for something.

GoodOdor

06-14-2011, 10:27 PM

as previous posters have already stated it's hard to compare the 2 based on rings and number 1 options status, because Drob never had the supporting cast that Dirk had around him.

Revisionist history. He was the number 1 seed in 95.....

ernest787

06-14-2011, 10:32 PM

40 Willie Anderson
23 Corey Crowder
34 Terry Cummings
15 Vinny Del Negro
1 Howard Eisley
32 Sean Elliott
54 Jack Haley
6 Avery Johnson
2 Moses Malone
00 Julius Nwosu
45 Chuck Person
7 J.R. Reid
25 Doc Rivers
50 David Robinson
10 Dennis Rodman

STACKED... lol

Blackjack

06-14-2011, 10:33 PM

GoodOdor

06-14-2011, 10:35 PM

Yeah ... you probably should have just left it alone. Awful take. Truly.

Let's hear your Drob>Hakeem take, spurfan.

Blackjack

06-14-2011, 10:36 PM

Let's hear your Drob>Hakeem take, spurfan.

I'm me, you're you. Leave it alone.

GoodOdor

06-14-2011, 10:37 PM

Don't bad talk classy Drob, he was such a nice guy:(:(:(

Blackjack

06-14-2011, 10:38 PM

You're you.

4>0rings

06-14-2011, 10:47 PM

Who would you rank higher all time?
http://i.imgur.com/KtYvF.gif

DUNCANownsKOBE

06-14-2011, 10:49 PM

If Dirk chased Tyson Chandler around with a bible, chances are the Mavs would have won as many championships as the 1995 Spurs.

DMC

06-15-2011, 12:14 AM

The fact that this question didn't come up last week is all the answer you need. The ring does not make Dirk better this week than he was last week.

DMC

06-15-2011, 12:15 AM

If Dirk chased Tyson Chandler around with a bible, chances are the Mavs would have won as many championships as the 1995 Spurs.
True

GoodOdor

06-15-2011, 12:18 AM

The fact that this question didn't come up last week is all the answer you need. The ring does not make Dirk better this week than he was last week.

Wow, what a shitty take. So a finals mvp and a ring doesn't bump someone up the all time great list?

Sean Cagney

06-15-2011, 12:42 AM

In his prime as a youngin D ROB easily! Dirk is that dude though no hate at all! David was just special though, he could get 28 ppg and 11 rebounds and 3 blocks a game! He was all round.

Dr House

06-15-2011, 12:42 AM

The fact that this question didn't come up last week is all the answer you need. The ring does not make Dirk better this week than he was last week.

lol all of a sudden rings mean nothing now

isn't this the same fanbase that wants to put Duncan over Kobe because of rings as a 1st option but will completely downplay it, if it helps the Dirk>Robinson argument crofl

Ice009

06-15-2011, 01:31 AM

Drob failed again and again as a number 1 option. Dirk won his ring as the clear cut number 1 on his team.

1 ring+finals mvp>2 rings as a side kick.

Dirk has had better overall teams that David ever had. You say David failed time and time again have you ever seen some of the players he had to play with. In a game of one on one a prime D-Rob would annihilate Dirk, but this is a team game though and it seems like you haven't looked at that side of it at all.

Maybe David should have signed with the Lakers when he had the chance. He might have won a ring or two in his first few seasons in the NBA and people might realize how great he was.

Ice009

06-15-2011, 01:38 AM

Dave had the teams and the coaching to win it all - he was a choker.

Interesting that his stats, unlike with other greats, went down in the post season....instead of up.

It probably had to do he was a face up player - much easier to plan an effective D against someone like that that, say, Duncan.

That being said, he was an excellent D player for pretty much all of his career, and that should count for something.

No offense to Vinny Del Negro, but as your starting two guard that is a championship level team is it? LOL

Olajuwon beats D-Rob because of his post game, but not many other players are that good. D-Rob could have been the Bill Russell of his era defensively if he could have concentrated on defense and had someone else take over on offense. Even Larry Brown said they tried to make him a scorer when he was probably closer to Bill Russell as a defensive player.

balldontlie

06-15-2011, 03:39 AM

Ice009

06-15-2011, 04:36 AM

robinson needed the best power forward of all time(duncan) to be his "batman" for a title.

dirk won with jet and a bunch of cast offs against a team with 3 of the league's best players, including the top two.

How old are you? I don't think any of you guys have actually seen a prime David Robinson.

sonic21

06-15-2011, 04:48 AM

Drob

who is the better PO performer?

4lifecowboy

06-15-2011, 05:36 AM

robinson needed the best power forward of all time(duncan) to be his "batman" for a title.

dirk won with jet and a bunch of cast offs against a team with 3 of the league's best players, including the top two.

by your rational J Kidd is a future hall of famer, he has played with Dirk as long as Robinson played with Duncan.

Venti Quattro

06-15-2011, 06:30 AM

:lmao saying that Dirk plays zero defense

pookenstein

06-15-2011, 07:19 AM

Drob failed again and again as a number 1 option. Dirk won his ring as the clear cut number 1 on his team.

1 ring+finals mvp>2 rings as a side kick.

4 rings+ 3finals mvp> 5 rings with 3 as a side kick.
:wakeup

dbestpro

06-15-2011, 08:24 AM

:lmao saying that Dirk plays zero defense

Yeah, that was way too generous.

sandman

06-15-2011, 08:28 AM

:lmao saying that Dirk plays zero defense

Oh, he actually attempts to play defense. He just isn't very effective at it.

Ice009

06-15-2011, 08:29 AM

It depends who you are comparing Dirk to. If you're comparing him to D-Rob then yes he doesn't play any defense. If you are comparing him to Steve Nash then yes he does play defense.

ambchang

06-15-2011, 08:52 AM

DRob might have not been the choker that Malone really was, but didn't get many chances to prove that either. The series against Hakeem was his only big run before Duncan, and he got thoroughly outplayed in that. That makes it very hard to see him stack up well against other all time greats. Heck, even Ewing had more deep runs than Robinson had.

The same could be said for Lebron vs. Dirk. While Dirk won against Lebron in their (likely one and only) head to head battle in the playoffs, I am not ready to say Dirk is a better player than Lebron. or saying Billups > Kobe because Billups outshone Kobe in one series.

Ewing had Oakley, Starks, Mason, Doc Rivers and Charles Smith as his sidekicks during his prime.

Robinson had Elliott/Rodman/Cummings, Avery Johnson as his. It's quite a difference in terms of supporting cast.

It's all hypotheticals, but I really believe if Robinson had a decent/All Star PG in his days, a player who could spreadout the floor for him, and I am not talking about a Stockton type player, but someone like a Mark Price, he would have won a championship at some point.

ambchang

06-15-2011, 08:55 AM

Revisionist history. He was the number 1 seed in 95.....

Speaks to how he overachieved.

The Spurs throughout Robinson's prime was extremely flawed, much like the 01 and 02 Spurs with Duncan in the middle.

You pack the lane, and they have NOTHING left.

Robinson was very easy to guard? That explains why he was constantly double and triple teamed in the playoffs with teams daring the secondary players to beat them.

ambchang

06-15-2011, 08:59 AM

Wow, what a shitty take. So a finals mvp and a ring doesn't bump someone up the all time great list?

Joe Dumars
Chauncey Billups
Tony Parker
James Worthy
Cedric Maxwell
Jo Jo White

I am not saying Dirk is a secondary player, because he has a regular MVP to back him up, but I am saying that a Finals MVP and a ring has a lot more to do with the team you are on, the competition against, and getting hot at one particular moment than other things.

There are times where a Finals MVP bolster the argument of a great player being a greater player, such as how Shaq dominated in 00, 01 and 02, Jordan, Hakeem, Bird and Magic, or even Dirk in 11. But to say Robinson is lesser because he was never being placed in a situation where he could dominate in the finals is flawed.

George Gervin's Afro

06-15-2011, 08:59 AM

#50

Booharv

06-15-2011, 09:40 AM

ohmwrecker

06-15-2011, 09:41 AM

3 pages?! Really?! Jesus . . .

DAF86

06-15-2011, 09:53 AM

:lmao saying that Dirk plays zero defense

I wouldn't say he plays zero defense but his defense certainly isn't average like Mavsfans are trying to make us bealive, dude is 7' tall and he demands no respect from opposing players 'cause A) he has no hops and B) He isn't very interested in sacrificing his body or getting into foul trouble. His lateral movement is also inexistent. He's basically only useful at getting defensive rebounds, something at which he's a little inconsistent at times.

joshdaboss

06-15-2011, 10:03 AM

This is a ridiculous question.

Viva Las Espuelas

06-15-2011, 10:13 AM

You win ONE title and then you think you're of Celtic status. SMH. Rather violently.

Horse

06-15-2011, 12:37 PM

Well Dirk was the best player on a championship team, something Robinson cannot say.

On the other hand, Robinson was dominant on both ends and had the misfortune of playing during Jordan and Hakeem's prime.
Let's not forget that outside of that great playoff hakeem had against David, Robinson owned him head to head. And had karl malone not been allowed to karate chop him everytime he was in the post and get away with it, 50 would've got a crack at mj.

Horse

06-15-2011, 12:42 PM

And one of their better years I think 94, rodman was suspended in a playoff game againt utah. Who knows what would've happened if he wasn't insane.

jsandiego

06-15-2011, 01:44 PM

4 rings+ 3finals mvp> 5 rings with 3 as a side kick.
:wakeup
and 6/24 in Game 7 when he was alpha dog too. :stirpot:

mariners

06-15-2011, 01:51 PM

Dirk is above average man on man defender and a below average help defender

GoodOdor

06-15-2011, 01:58 PM

and 6/24 in Game 7 when he was alpha dog too. :stirpot:

Duncan 10/27 game 7....good thing he had manu to bail him out:toast

GoodOdor

06-15-2011, 01:58 PM

And one of their better years I think 94, rodman was suspended in a playoff game againt utah. Who knows what would've happened if he wasn't insane.

tbh maybe if robinson wasn't chasing him with a bible rodman wouldn't have quit on him.

jag

06-15-2011, 02:14 PM

Mav fan is great. He realizes this was a stupid debate and starts talking about Hakeem.

A ring has hardly cured mav fan of little brother syndrome. Even after a lot of Spurs fans were happy to see Dirk get a ring and embarrass the Heat, Mav fan still wants more. Dirk obviously doesn't stack up to Duncan, so Mav fan wants to see how he stacks up to Robinson.

I've always been a fan of Dirk and I've been pretty open about that. As much as I've hated the Mavs, Dirk will easily end up going down as one of my favorite players. But on the first page it was funny to see FPoonsie try to keep the peace by being nice and saying it wasn't a "completely" ridiculous question. In all honesty, it is a ridiculous question. Dirk is no where near the player Robinson was.

The best argument for Dirk is his offense and how he takes over games offensively. I've never seen a player Dirk's size shoot the way he does. But that doesn't mean there haven't been players his size who have scored as well as he does. Robinson was in many ways just as good, and at times better than Nowitzki on the offensive end. In his prime, Robinson had range just shy of the 3-pt line and was also capable of playing with his back to the basket and taking his man off the dribble. He didn't have Dirk's pure ability to shoot the ball, but his quickness, athleticism and body control were in a completely different league than Dirk's.

When it comes to defense and rebounding, it isn't even close. Though Dirk has improved defensively and is no longer a liablity, Robinson was much more than "not a liability". He was the best defensive player in the game. When they were at their respective bests, Robinson still averaged over 3 RPG more and 3 BPG more than Dirk.

As far as longevity is concerned, Robinson had 10-11 seasons as an elite NBA player. It's not as if Robinson dominated for a few years and then fell off. He sustained that level over the course of a decade.

Dirk was finally able to lead his team to a title as the clear #1 star. Something Robinson was unable to do for 8 seasons. But as the #1 option, it also took Nowitzki 12 tries to finally accomplish that. It would be foolish to think Nowitzki had stacked teams for all these years, that obviously isn't the case. But Robinson would have killed to have a prime Michael Finley starting next to him. Forget about having Antoine Walker, Antawn Jamison, Michael Finley, Steve Nash and a young Josh Howard all on the same roster.

Dirk was able to win because he grew as a leader and finally had the right pieces put around him. Robinson was basically asked to be all the pieces. He never had an owner willing to spend money. Cuban and Dirk turned the Mavs into a winning franchise. Robinson was asked to do it on his own.

ohmwrecker

06-15-2011, 02:22 PM

_Jag with the "no shit Sherlock" goods

(begrudgingly offered)

Findog

06-15-2011, 02:50 PM

ohmwrecker

06-15-2011, 02:55 PM

Robinson was elite on both ends of the floor, but he was a playoff choker.

:lol Seriously?! Up until a week ago Dirk was widely considered a playoff choker. Robinson didn't choke once he had a decent team either. Good take though.

TJastal

06-15-2011, 02:55 PM

Robinson was elite on both ends of the floor, but he was a playoff choker.

Dirk was elite on one end and average at best on the other, but he raises his game in the playoffs.

Interesting question, to be honest.

Let's not forget Dirk needed quite a bit of help from Terry & Barea to help overcome his obvious nerves to win that game 6. He helped to ice the game in the 4th once the mavs were up double digits (thx to none other than Ian Mahinmi lol).

Do you consider Dirk's first 3 quarters 'choking'? I'm afraid to answer that question honestly (because I like the guy alot).

Findog

06-15-2011, 04:32 PM

Let's not forget Dirk needed quite a bit of help from Terry & Barea to help overcome his obvious nerves to win that game 6. He helped to ice the game in the 4th once the mavs were up double digits (thx to none other than Ian Mahinmi lol).

Do you consider Dirk's first 3 quarters 'choking'? I'm afraid to answer that question honestly (because I like the guy alot).

No, choking is what LeBron did when he passed the ball like a hot potato. Dirk kept firing away. In the same sense Starks going 1-18 was not choking. He just shot away his team's chances to win.

joshdaboss

06-15-2011, 04:37 PM

No, choking is what LeBron did when he passed the ball like a hot potato. Dirk kept firing away. In the same sense Starks going 1-18 was not choking. He just shot away his team's chances to win.

I love this. Fans are in love with chuckers now. Give me a LeBron James mentality all day, every day. If I'm getting doubled, pass the ball to the open teammate. All LeBron does is make the correct play. Say what you want about off-the-court antics, he's the epitome of everything you want in a basketball player when he's on it.

TD 21

06-15-2011, 04:44 PM

lol all of a sudden rings mean nothing now

isn't this the same fanbase that wants to put Duncan over Kobe because of rings as a 1st option but will completely downplay it, if it helps the Dirk>Robinson argument crofl

Fair enough. But non Spurs fans do this to Spurs fans all the time. When they want to downplay Duncan, it's "well, look at the talent he's played with and the coach he's played for". When they want to downplay Robinson, Ginobili or Parker, then it's "well, they had the greatest PF ever to lead and carry them". So don't act like this is something that's exclusive to Spurs fans.

Agloco

06-15-2011, 05:30 PM

No, choking is what LeBron did when he passed the ball like a hot potato. Dirk kept firing away. In the same sense Starks going 1-18 was not choking. He just shot away his team's chances to win.

Fin-dawg, I have nothing but respect for ya but this is junk. Straight up.

Robinson was elite on both ends of the floor, but he was a playoff choker.

Dirk was elite on one end and average at best on the other, but he raises his game in the playoffs.

Interesting question, to be honest.

Your sig says it all. Dirk should still be grab-assing Terry because he deserves it. JET showed up in Game 6 and saved Dirks bacon.

Axe Murderer

06-15-2011, 07:45 PM

Fair enough. But non Spurs fans do this to Spurs fans all the time. When they want to downplay Duncan, it's "well, look at the talent he's played with and the coach he's played for". When they want to downplay Robinson, Ginobili or Parker, then it's "well, they had the greatest PF ever to lead and carry them". So don't act like this is something that's exclusive to Spurs fans.

You must be imagining things.

Only morons/trolls or BRHornet will say Duncan's not the best PF ever. It's pretty much a fact known around the basketball world

Ice009

06-15-2011, 09:48 PM

Duncan 10/27 game 7....good thing he had manu to bail him out:toast

Tim Duncan won that game. Towards the end of the 3rd quarter we were down by double digits and then Tim put the team on his back. He started going down low aggressive every time until he got all of Detroit's bigs in foul trouble to lead the comeback which opened up the lanes for Manu. It was the stretch where we took over and won the game. That was Tim Duncan.

dbreiden83080

06-15-2011, 09:59 PM

Duncan 10/27 game 7....good thing he had manu to bail him out:toast

It was Duncan though that did not stop being aggressive. Lebron should watch that game as a lesson for how a great player stays with it in spite of a tough shooting night. 4th qtr Duncan is fighting for position and demanding the ball. Takes the shot or draws the double and gets the opening. 2 huge 3's in 4qtr game 7 wide open, 1 by Bowen the other by Manu.. Wide open thanks to Duncan's aggression..

Timmy is the man..

dbreiden83080

06-15-2011, 09:59 PM

Tim Duncan won that game. Towards the end of the 3rd quarter we were down by double digits and then Tim put the team on his back. He started going down low aggressive every time until he got all of Detroit's bigs in foul trouble to lead the comeback which opened up the lanes for Manu. It was the stretch where we took over and won the game. That was Tim Duncan.

Yep Yep..

Solid D

06-15-2011, 10:16 PM

I'd definitely say David Robinson. Remember the IBM Award? It was given out for 19 seasons to the NBA player, determined by a computer formula, who was statitically the most valuable player to his team. Formula: (Player points-FGA+REB+AST+STL+BLK-PF-TO+(team wins x 10) x 250)/ (Team points-FGA+REB+AST+STL+BLK-PF-TO)

No player won the award more than David (5-time winner). It takes a special player covering the entire 94'x50' floor to win this award. Someone able to achieve a quadruple double in a game speaks to his/her all-around ability.

Analyzing each player's abilities and contributions to their respective teams, David gets my vote over Dirk without hesitation.

1983-84 - Magic Johnson, L.A. Lakers
1984-85 - Michael Jordan, Chicago
1985-86 - Charles Barkley, Philadelphia
1986-87 - Charles Barkley, Philadelphia
1987-88 - Charles Barkley, Philadelphia
1988-89 - Michael Jordan, Chicago
1989-90 - David Robinson, San Antonio
1990-91 - David Robinson, San Antonio
1991-92 - Dennis Rodman, Detroit
1992-93 - Hakeem Olajuwon, Houston
1993-94 - David Robinson, San Antonio
1994-95 - David Robinson, San Antonio
1995-96 - David Robinson, San Antonio
1996-97 - Grant Hill, Detroit
1997-98 - Karl Malone, Utah
1998-99 - Dikembe Mutombo, Atlanta
1999-00 - Shaquille O'Neal, LA Lakers
2000-01 - Shaquille O'Neal, LA Lakers
2001-02 - Tim Duncan, San Antonio

Viva Las Espuelas

06-15-2011, 10:45 PM

i'd definitely say david robinson. Remember the ibm award? It was given out for 19 seasons to the nba player, determined by a computer formula, who was statitically the most valuable player to his team. Formula: (player points-fga+reb+ast+stl+blk-pf-to+(team wins x 10) x 250)/ (team points-fga+reb+ast+stl+blk-pf-to)

no player won the award more than david (5-time winner). It takes a special player covering the entire 94'x50' floor to win this award. Someone able to achieve a quadruple double in a game speaks to his/her all-around ability.

Analyzing each player's abilities and contributions to their respective teams, david gets my vote over dirk without hesitation.

1983-84 - magic johnson, l.a. Lakers
1984-85 - michael jordan, chicago
1985-86 - charles barkley, philadelphia
1986-87 - charles barkley, philadelphia
1987-88 - charles barkley, philadelphia
1988-89 - michael jordan, chicago
1989-90 - david robinson, san antonio
1990-91 - david robinson, san antonio
1991-92 - dennis rodman, detroit
1992-93 - hakeem olajuwon, houston
1993-94 - david robinson, san antonio
1994-95 - david robinson, san antonio
1995-96 - david robinson, san antonio
1996-97 - grant hill, detroit
1997-98 - karl malone, utah
1998-99 - dikembe mutombo, atlanta
1999-00 - shaquille o'neal, la lakers
2000-01 - shaquille o'neal, la lakers
2001-02 - tim duncan, san antonio

Can I get an Amen?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Solid D

06-15-2011, 11:13 PM

Wow. Decapitalization must have taken you a while there Viva.

Findog

06-15-2011, 11:58 PM

Fin-dawg, I have nothing but respect for ya but this is junk. Straight up.

Okay, maybe it's choking in the sense that at some point he needed to stop shooting and defer to guys who had it going, but choking is generally fear of the moment and shying away. 18 shot attempts means if anything he was trying to force the action and do too much. I guess that's choking. LeBron was deferring to Mario Chalmers and Udonis Haslem instead of taking charge.

Your sig says it all. Dirk should still be grab-assing Terry because he deserves it. JET showed up in Game 6 and saved Dirks bacon

Dirk I think went 5-6 in the fourth quarter and helped salt the game away. It would have been a blowout if he had shown up in the first half.

MannyIsGod

06-16-2011, 12:31 AM

Yeah - Robinson also never let his team lose a 2 game lead in the finals. How exactly was Robinson a playoff choker?

Andrew Cunanan

06-16-2011, 12:37 AM

Yeah - Robinson also never let his team lose a 2 game lead in the finals. How exactly was Robinson a playoff choker?

Yes, but Robinson could never lead his team to the Finals in a grab-bag WC that sent a different team each year...it's not like the Sonics, Rockets, Blazers, Suns, etc were goliaths. In fact only once did he lead his team as far as the WCF--and that led to one of the biggest 1-on-1 face-fuckings in history.

I get it, D-Rob's a great player and a swell guy, but ya'll throat his scrote way too much, imho.

MannyIsGod

06-16-2011, 12:37 AM

So Robinson averages (give or take a few) 24 points and 12 rebounds per game in the playoffs along with dominating defense but is a choker? What exactly was the man supposed to do?

Andrew Cunanan

06-16-2011, 12:41 AM

So Robinson averages (give or take a few) 24 points and 12 rebounds per game in the playoffs along with dominating defense but is a choker? What exactly was the man supposed to do?

I didn't say he was a choker...I'm saying he's not the demi-god most of you make him out to be. One conference Finals appearance in a grab-bag WC...color me unimpressed

MannyIsGod

06-16-2011, 12:42 AM

Yes, but Robinson could never lead his team to the Finals in a grab-bag WC that sent a different team each year...it's not like the Sonics, Rockets, Blazers, Suns, etc were goliaths. In fact only once did he lead his team as far as the WCF--and that led to one of the biggest 1-on-1 face-fuckings in history.

I get it, D-Rob's a great player and a swell guy, but ya'll throat his scrote way too much, imho.

So he should have averaged 30/20 then to not be considered a playoff choker? Hmm, I guess those players around him were tearing it up and I've just forgotten.

The Sonics actually were pretty god damn good. Non Fat Kemp was a beast, Payton was in his prime, and they had Detlef Schrempf and players like Nate McMillian and Sam Perkins off the bench. The Suns had a pretty damn good team too with KJ and Barkley plus a hell of a bunch of role players. If the Suns had managed to get a center better than Fat Oliver Miller they would have been amazing. LOL @ Houston not being stacked. You didn't even bring up Utah even though they were pretty fucking good during that period of course. They did have a better overall team than the Blazers early on but I'm not going to blame a rookie and call him a choker.

MannyIsGod

06-16-2011, 12:43 AM

I didn't say he was a choker...I'm saying he's not the demi-god most of you make him out to be. One conference Finals appearance in a grab-bag WC...color me unimpressed

I never called him a demigod. You responded to a post where I specifically asked how he was a playoff choker. Maybe you should read what you're quoting next time.

Andrew Cunanan

06-16-2011, 12:44 AM

Again, where have I called the man a choker?

MannyIsGod

06-16-2011, 12:48 AM

When you responded to a question that specifically asks how he is a choker. On the other hand, you'll have a hard time showing where I said or even implied he was a demigod.

Andrew Cunanan

06-16-2011, 12:53 AM

When you responded to a question that specifically asks how he is a choker. On the other hand, you'll have a hard time showing where I said or even implied he was a demigod.

But you have no problem implying what others were saying, right Manny? I wasn't referring to the choking question, just the first statement in that post. Here, it's as plain as day to see:

Yeah - Robinson also never let his team lose a 2 game lead in the finals. How exactly was Robinson a playoff choker?

Yes, but Robinson could never lead his team to the Finals in a grab-bag WC that sent a different team each year...it's not like the Sonics, Rockets, Blazers, Suns, etc were goliaths. In fact only once did he lead his team as far as the WCF--and that led to one of the biggest 1-on-1 face-fuckings in history.

I get it, D-Rob's a great player and a swell guy, but ya'll throat his scrote way too much, imho.

Notice how my first sentence starts off almost exactly like the bolded statement in your post?

#41 Shoot Em Up

06-16-2011, 01:31 AM

Robinson couldn't lead a team to the promise land like Dirty did....so this is an insult to Dirk.

#41 Shoot Em Up

06-16-2011, 01:32 AM

Better comparison for the overrated clown Robinson woud be Shawn Kemp

GoodOdor

06-16-2011, 01:33 AM

So Robinson averages (give or take a few) 24 points and 12 rebounds per game in the playoffs along with dominating defense but is a choker? What exactly was the man supposed to do?

How much you wanna bet if I check his regular season stats, those would turn out to be higher than his playoff ones?

What does that tell you?

DAF86

06-16-2011, 06:47 AM

Nowitzki did choke a bit there at the end, he was almost automatic during the whole playoffs/season and during the finals he kept on missing easy looks to the tune of 41%, if his teammates wouldn't have stepped up he would be getting a lot of heat (non intended) right now.

ambchang

06-16-2011, 08:32 AM

How much you wanna bet if I check his regular season stats, those would turn out to be higher than his playoff ones?

What does that tell you?

So statistics alone tell you if a player is a choker?

Solid D

06-16-2011, 11:27 AM

This thread is titled "Dirk or David Robinson?" Dirk and David both needed help to win a championship. They had similar winning percentages (Dirk .556 and David .560) They played against each other for 5 seasons. Dirk needed 13 seasons to win his first title, so let's not get carried away. Dirk is an incredible offensive player. Although he never scored 100 points like David did, he might be able to do so...if given the right situation like David was given. Dirk's shortfall compared with David is at the other end of the court. David was dominant.

This tread isn't about "Olajuwon or David?". It isn't about "Shaq or David?".

Leetonidas

06-16-2011, 11:29 AM

How much you wanna bet if I check his regular season stats, those would turn out to be higher than his playoff ones?

What does that tell you?

That David was the only reason those Spurs teams sniffed the playoffs and once the playoffs started, teams started collapsing and focusing most of their defensive attention to him. Dumbass.

jsandiego

06-16-2011, 02:06 PM

Robinson couldn't lead a team to the promise land like Dirty did....so this is an insult to Dirk.
This might be a great point...

Better comparison for the overrated clown Robinson woud be Shawn Kemp
...but then you follow it up with this. Robinson = Kemp? C'mon, man.

mavsfan1000

06-16-2011, 03:10 PM

Dirk makes the offense so much easier. The team can't score without Dirk basically. Dirk is better.

ohmwrecker

06-16-2011, 03:13 PM

5 pages . . . unbelievable.

Blake

06-16-2011, 03:32 PM

5 pages . . . unbelievable.

I believe it.

8 wouldn't suprise me. 10 would push it.

Solid D

06-16-2011, 03:34 PM

Dirk makes the offense so much easier. The team can't score without Dirk basically. Dirk is better.

When David got hurt, the Spurs won the lottery to get Tim Duncan.

Not a very convincing point, honestly. Throw some facts in there...such as these averages/game from the 1993-94 season during David's prime:
PTS REB AST BLK STL FG%
29.8 10.7 4.8 3.3 1.7 .507

or

these averages/game from the 1991-92 season where David became only the 3rd player in NBA history to finish in the Top 10 in 5 different categories:

PTS REB AST BLK STL FG%
23.2 12.2 2.7 4.5 2.3 .551
(8th) (4th) . (1st)(5th) (6th)

mavsfan1000

06-16-2011, 03:40 PM

Not a very convincing point, honestly. Throw some facts in there...such as these averages/game from the 1993-94 season during David's prime:
PTS REB AST BLK STL FG%
29.8 10.7 4.8 3.3 1.7 .507

or

these averages/game from the 1991-92 season where David became only the 3rd player in NBA history to finish in the Top 10 in 5 different categories:

PTS REB AST BLK STL FG%
23.2 12.2 2.7 4.5 2.3 .551
(8th) (4th) . (1st)(5th) (6th)
Numbers don't always tell the whole story. Also to remember that all teams scored more back in the early 90's. Defense was not as intense. Zones weren't allowed. Some players make a bigger impact by doing less. I think Dirk is a perfect example of a player that alters how a team can guard Dallas which makes it so much easier for everyone. Dallas usually has one of the top offensive teams for years now proves. And we've seen how bad they are when Dirk isn't playing.

Solid D

06-16-2011, 03:51 PM

Also to remember that all teams scored more back in the early 90's. Defense was not as intense. Zones weren't allowed. Some players make a bigger impact by doing less. I think Dirk is a perfect example of a player that alters how a team can guard Dallas which makes it so much easier for everyone. Dallas usually has one of the top offensive teams for years now proves. And we've seen how bad they are when Dirk isn't playing.

The Spurs averaged 100.0 ppg and held opponents to 94.8 ppg in 1993-94 when David won the NBA scoring title.
What did Dallas average this year? Answer 100.24 ppg, Opponents 96.01 ppg.

Actually defenses were allowed to play more physical on the perimeter in the 90s.

mavsfan1000

06-16-2011, 04:07 PM

The Spurs averaged 100.0 ppg and held opponents to 94.8 ppg in 1993-94 when David won the NBA scoring title.
What did Dallas average this year? Answer 100.24 ppg, Opponents 96.01 ppg.

Actually defenses were allowed to play more physical on the perimeter in the 90s.
Dallas won a championship with Dirk being the best player. David Robinson couldn't win the championship as being the best player. The difference might be that Dirk is more reliable in the clutch and like I said. Defenses key on him so much that everyone else has open looks. Dirk just does a lot of things that are great for winning. Yes David Robinson is also a great player but he had some shortcomings. For all the praise on great defense, he sure struggled against Olajuwon. Dirk has more range than Robinson. He can stretch out to the 3 point line. That versatility makes it that much more of a nightmare to guard and impossible to find a solution for. With Rodman on his team, you think the Spurs would be a championship quality team. They fell short.

sefant77

06-16-2011, 04:13 PM

Dirk only plays 1 side of the court. One of the best ever at that certain end of the court but plays zero defense.

You dont go 16-5 through the Playoffs with playing 4on5 defense....

Solid D

06-16-2011, 04:36 PM

Findog

06-16-2011, 04:41 PM

Mavsfan1000, At least now you are trying to make a decent argument. I'll give you a pass on your mistakes in your previous argument from the shallow pool.

It finally clicked for Dirk in his 13th season after a lot of playoff failures. Credit to Dirk. Having watched David for virtually every game of his career, David didn't always struggle versus Olajuwon, just like Dirk didn't always struggle versus Andres Biedrins going 2-13 and 8 points in the important game 6 close-out versus Golden State three years ago.

What would you say was Robinson's most impressive playoff performance before Duncan? The season you mentioned, 93-94, he came up woefully short against Utah, compared to his regular season averages. To what do you attribute that?

Axe Murderer

06-16-2011, 06:10 PM

5 pages . . . unbelievable.

:lol

Solid D

06-16-2011, 06:13 PM

What would you say was Robinson's most impressive playoff performance before Duncan? The season you mentioned, 93-94, he came up woefully short against Utah, compared to his regular season averages. To what do you attribute that?

In the 94 playoffs, David did fine. In the final game he went for 27 points and Rodman got 20 rebounds but it's a sad testimony to the Spurs' coaching and guard play and props to Utah. I think we all know that it takes the right mix of players around the superstars to win a title. David got his right mix and won 2 titles. It took Dirk 12 years to get the right mix to win his first.

I have to head out for something I've got planned this evening so I'll come back and post my memory of most impressive playoff performance.

Greg Oden

06-16-2011, 06:18 PM

Fixed

Ask yourselves the age old question then:

You're starting a franchise..........who do you take?

Considering Dirk led a team to a title and Robinson didn't, why would a Robinson supporter word it like that?

Proxy

06-16-2011, 07:34 PM

Depends on the team philosophy. Can't go wrong either way. Dirk is more clutch tbh.

Russo21

06-16-2011, 08:23 PM

DMC

06-16-2011, 08:30 PM

Considering Dirk led a team to a title and Robinson didn't, why would a Robinson supporter word it like that?
I'd take Oden over both.

Proxy

06-16-2011, 08:31 PM

David Robinson.

No offence to Dirk though he's an all time great baller. David Robinson in his prime was amazing to watch. 7'1" with biceps on top of biceps, ran the floor like a guard, score inside and outside, block shots at a rediculous rate and played amazing overall defense.

Offensively its a wash. Dirk is unguardable and can shoot from anywhere no matter who guards him. David was unguardable in his prime to (unfortunately had to play against hakeem) so offensively its pretty even with perhaps dirk coming out on top.

The difference is in rebounding and defense (one on one and team d) david was a much better rebounder and one of the best defenders we've ever seen. Much much much better on D then Dirk. One of the greatest defensive C's ever.

David Robinson far greater overall then Dirk

Man it'd be fun to watch prime David and prime Dirk go head to head!!!!!

Well, before we start talking about how much sexier the Admiral looked than Dirk, let's address the fact that Dirk takes it in offensive comparison. They aren't even.

Secondly, I love the Admiral, but he wasn't a winner. That was TD's doing. Dirk has proven his 'clutchness' this year... something that DRob sadly didn't have.

The Admiral obviously dominates in defensive efficiency by a loooong shot. You can make an argument for both, but your closing statement, that Robinson was *obviously* better is arrogant at best.

Russo21

06-16-2011, 10:50 PM

i didnt say obviously. i said overall

Leetonidas

06-16-2011, 11:56 PM

I'd take Robinson because I think it would be easier to build a championship team around him versus Dirk. His defense is really it for me because he is one of the better defenders at his position all-time and overall all-time. And it's not like he didn't average 30ppg for a season so he could score too. But no one would pass up on chance to build around a 7'1" center with supreme athleticism, extremely fit and agile, and great defensive instincts versus a 7'0" amazing jump shooter. Not saying Dirk's not an amazing player but for the aforementioned reasons I'd take David.

Solid D

06-17-2011, 12:10 AM

What would you say was Robinson's most impressive playoff performance before Duncan? The season you mentioned, 93-94, he came up woefully short against Utah, compared to his regular season averages. To what do you attribute that?

One of his better playoff series was in 1995 versus the Lakers. David averaged 25.3 ppg, 12.1 rpg, 3.1 apg, 3.7 bpg as the Spurs defeated the Lakers 4-2. That was with a pouting Dennis Rodman who was actually benched for insubordination by coach Bob Hill in one of those playoff games.

The same Dennis Rodman who did his very best to sabotage the Spurs defense by refusing to defend the perimeter in favor of better rebounding position while playing screen/rolls in a lack-luster fashion. It bit them in the rear vs. the Rockets. I couldn't believe what I was seeing.

Leetonidas

06-17-2011, 12:52 AM

Yeah, David takes a lot of heat for Rodman fucking up that series. It's not like it was his fault anyway, David was the reason we were there and he didn't do an awful job guarding Hakeem...but Dream was just in another realm and no one was going to stop him and I'm sure David getting that MVP added to his fire.

dirk4mvp's partner

06-17-2011, 01:19 AM

Considering Dirk led a team to a title and Robinson didn't, why would a Robinson supporter word it like that?

Thats right sweety, you tell em. Will see yea later "Greggy".

4lifecowboy

06-17-2011, 05:38 AM

Well, before we start talking about how much sexier the Admiral looked than Dirk, let's address the fact that Dirk takes it in offensive comparison. They aren't even.

Secondly, I love the Admiral, but he wasn't a winner. That was TD's doing. Dirk has proven his 'clutchness' this year... something that DRob sadly didn't have.

The Admiral obviously dominates in defensive efficiency by a loooong shot. You can make an argument for both, but your closing statement, that Robinson was *obviously* better is arrogant at best.

Wasn't a winner? The man has two rings no matter how you slice it, he played in the Jordan era in his prime, and never had a legit wing man til Duncan came along. this arguement is retarded, Dirk could carry D-Rob's jock strap in any era! how is that for Arrogant! LOL at comparing an one dimensional, jump shooter to one of the top all around centers to ever play the game)

ambchang

06-17-2011, 08:12 AM

Findog

06-17-2011, 08:53 AM

Robinson might be the consensus for whom you'd build around as a 21 year old, but the fact remains that Dirk generally raised his game in the playoffs, whereas Robinson's production generally went down.

Cuppycake Gumdrop

06-17-2011, 09:02 AM

lol funny how whenever D-Rob failed in the playoffs, it's always the coaches and shitty teammates fault. in other words, he was the 90's version of LeBron? if so, give me dirk.

Cuppycake Gumdrop

06-17-2011, 09:05 AM

Guess what? Kobe sucked royal in 05 to 07, but suddenly became much much better in 09 and 10

:lmao are you fucking retarded??? Not a man on earth thought Kobe "sucked" from 05 to 07, he only outscored an entire team in 3 quarters, then dropped 81, and was only at the peak of his career during that period. Kobe took heat for literally only one thing from 05 to 07, and that was when he very obviously quit on the team in Game 7 against Phoenix. But don't let facts get in the way of your idiotic point.

Axe Murderer

06-17-2011, 09:19 AM

lol Kobe sucking royally from 05 to 07

idk how i missed det one

Leetonidas

06-17-2011, 11:03 AM

Bunch of idiots who still can't figure out winning a championship takes more than the star player.

Guess what? Kobe sucked royal in 05 to 07, but suddenly became much much better in 09 and 10, it has nothing to do with the fact that he had one of the most stacked front lines in the last decade.

Dirk was horrible in 07, but then suddenly got it at age 32 and won the Mavs a championship, by himself, never mind that the Mavs spent a decade building a team around him with just the right parts.

And it is well known that Kidd, Jet, Chandler, Marion is of the same caliber as Avery Johnson, Vinny Del Negro, and an insane Dennis Rodman.

http://riddlethos.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/lolwut.jpg

Kobe didn't suddenly become better in 2009-2010. I think EVERYONE knows that Kobe from 2005-2007 was at his peak and on the offensive end not a player in this league was even close to him. You don't single-handedly outscore a good team by yourself in 3 quarters if you "sucked royal" not to mention setting the modern day record for points in a game. His had some decent teammates in Odom/Butler but everyone else was trash...I mean they had Smush fucking Parker starting for Christ's sake.

ambchang

06-17-2011, 11:10 AM

:lmao are you fucking retarded??? Not a man on earth thought Kobe "sucked" from 05 to 07, he only outscored an entire team in 3 quarters, then dropped 81, and was only at the peak of his career during that period. Kobe took heat for literally only one thing from 05 to 07, and that was when he very obviously quit on the team in Game 7 against Phoenix. But don't let facts get in the way of your idiotic point.

Hey Proxy, Findog and Mavfan1000, this guy just called you tards.

Kobe wasn't a winner in 05 to 07. I mean, when we compared Robinson vs. Dirk, we don't look at competition, defenses, teammates, coaches, nothing, we just look at the two players in a vacuum, and whether they led their teams to a championship, right? So why is this a faulty way of looking at a player's individual season?

Why would the best player not win the championship every single season? Why didn't Jordan win the championship before Phil Jackson, Scottie and Rodman/Grant? Why didn't Shaq win all the championships from 99 to 04? Why didn't Kobe lead his team past the 1st round between 05 to 07? Why did Dirk fail to lead the Mavs to a bunch of championships prior? Why didn't Duncan lead the Spurs to 5 consecutive titles from 03 to 07?

Well, before we start talking about how much sexier the Admiral looked than Dirk, let's address the fact that Dirk takes it in offensive comparison. They aren't even.

Secondly, I love the Admiral, but he wasn't a winner. That was TD's doing. Dirk has proven his 'clutchness' this year... something that DRob sadly didn't have.

The Admiral obviously dominates in defensive efficiency by a loooong shot. You can make an argument for both, but your closing statement, that Robinson was *obviously* better is arrogant at best.

What would you say was Robinson's most impressive playoff performance before Duncan? The season you mentioned, 93-94, he came up woefully short against Utah, compared to his regular season averages. To what do you attribute that?

Dallas won a championship with Dirk being the best player. David Robinson couldn't win the championship as being the best player. The difference might be that Dirk is more reliable in the clutch and like I said. Defenses key on him so much that everyone else has open looks. Dirk just does a lot of things that are great for winning. Yes David Robinson is also a great player but he had some shortcomings. For all the praise on great defense, he sure struggled against Olajuwon. Dirk has more range than Robinson. He can stretch out to the 3 point line. That versatility makes it that much more of a nightmare to guard and impossible to find a solution for. With Rodman on his team, you think the Spurs would be a championship quality team. They fell short.

ambchang

06-17-2011, 11:11 AM

Apparently, everybody's sarcasm meter is broke today, I thought it was pretty obvious.

Cuppycake Gumdrop

06-17-2011, 11:19 AM

Hey Proxy, Findog and Mavfan1000, this guy just called you tards.

Kobe wasn't a winner in 05 to 07. I mean, when we compared Robinson vs. Dirk, we don't look at competition, defenses, teammates, coaches, nothing, we just look at the two players in a vacuum, and whether they led their teams to a championship, right? So why is this a faulty way of looking at a player's individual season?

Why would the best player not win the championship every single season? Why didn't Jordan win the championship before Phil Jackson, Scottie and Rodman/Grant? Why didn't Shaq win all the championships from 99 to 04? Why didn't Kobe lead his team past the 1st round between 05 to 07? Why did Dirk fail to lead the Mavs to a bunch of championships prior? Why didn't Duncan lead the Spurs to 5 consecutive titles from 03 to 07?

Apparently, everybody's sarcasm meter is broke today, I thought it was pretty obvious.

Nothing you said here in any way defends your Kobe comments. And I really hoped for better than the typical lefty "I was just joking" defense.

Cuppycake Gumdrop

06-17-2011, 11:19 AM

Also find the part where anybody in this thread said David Robinson ever "sucked royally"

ambchang

06-17-2011, 11:32 AM

A prelude like this is pretty obvious:

Bunch of idiots who still can't figure out winning a championship takes more than the star player.

Guess what? ....

And it doesn't really leave any doubt when I concluded the rest with:

Dirk was horrible in 07, but then suddenly got it at age 32 and won the Mavs a championship, by himself, never mind that the Mavs spent a decade building a team around him with just the right parts.

And it is well known that Kidd, Jet, Chandler, Marion is of the same caliber as Avery Johnson, Vinny Del Negro, and an insane Dennis Rodman.

I wasn't joking, I was pointing how ludicrously stupid some of the arguments of having Dirk vs. Robinson is throughout this thread. The single argument people have about Dirk > Robinson (and I am sure those are troll comments) is that Robinson choked and couldn't lead the Spurs to the promised land during his prime, while Dirk could. My counter argument is that a team wins championships, not individual, and the examples that could be used is the level of success that Kobe had in his career, how, the same player, had much more team success when he was on the downhill of his career as compared to his absolute prime, strictly because of the presence of better teammates and coaching.

But all of this would just fly way over your head, because you took one sentence out of an overall paragraph that was clearly used to illustrate how flawed the arguments were. And especially when you actually read the thread and what my responses were earlier on.

But nevermind.

P.S. Nobody said Robinson "sucked royally" in this thread, and I never said anybody did. Not sure how that came about.

Greg Oden

06-17-2011, 12:16 PM

People with Robinson avatars and like Robinson over Duncan are equally as faggy as Bulls fans who put Pippen up on a pedestal he doesn't belong on.

Henke

06-17-2011, 01:00 PM

ambchang

06-17-2011, 01:20 PM

Mavs fans acting like 2006 and 2007 never happened. :tu

Greg Oden

06-17-2011, 02:11 PM

Dirk 2006 Regular season averages - 26/9/3

Dirk 2006 Post season averages - 27/12/3

2007 is a mark against him, but he was just fine in 2006.

ambchang

06-17-2011, 02:15 PM

The finals in 2006?

ambchang

06-17-2011, 02:18 PM

BTW, before I got labelled as a Dirk hater, I am not. Always loved his game.

Just want to get things right, and stop people from posting revisionist history. On a scheme of things, I will rank both Robinson and Dirk in the 10-20 all time talents, with Robinson slightly ahead in terms of ability, and Dirk having a better career.

Henke

06-17-2011, 02:39 PM

Mavs fans acting like 2006 and 2007 never happened. :tu

Spurs fans acting like 1995 and 2011 never happened.:tu

Dirk erased his past failures with a legendary postseason run and a championship as the unquestionable #1 guy.
When exactly Robinson exorcized his demons from 1995?With coatailling one of the Top7 players of all time and finally winning?

And since YOU mention 2006 and 2007,I don't care about Robinson's poor supporting cast in 1995,or any other excuse,no matter how legit they are(I agree that the Spurs front office failed him).
I have plenty of them for 2006 and 2007 too.Especially for 2006.:tu

Just want to get things right, and stop people from posting revisionist history. On a scheme of things, I will rank both Robinson and Dirk in the 10-20 all time talents, with Robinson slightly ahead in terms of ability, and Dirk having a better career.

I don't have a problem with this.
As I wrote before,it's just rediculous for someone to believe that this is not a legit comparison,that Robinson is on an entire different level than Dirk and Mavs fans just being cocky after winning the ship.

I mean,after all I can understand what Robinson means to the Spurs and the city of San Antonio in general and why you feel the need to bump him up because he was unlucky(great talent/failed by teammates and front office during his prime).

jjktkk

06-17-2011, 02:41 PM

People with Robinson avatars and like Robinson over Duncan are equally as faggy as Bulls fans who put Pippen up on a pedestal he doesn't belong on.

If anyone knows about faggy avatars....

4lifecowboy

06-17-2011, 02:44 PM

It's very funny watching all these Spurs fans acting like this is not even a debate and it's a blashphemy to compare Dirk Nowitzki to David Robinson.:lmao:lmao
After all we're talking about the fanbase where a Dirk/Manu comparison would end up like 40%-60% in favor of Ginobili.:lmao:lmao

David Robinson aka the admiral aka the fucking GOAT of regular season stats and fantasy basketball.

You can have Robinson,his GREAT regular season numbers and the 2 rings he won following Tim fucking Duncan and I can have Dirk,his playoffs performances and the fucking ring he won as the #1,with the 2nd guy in the team being centuries behind him in terms of production.

We're all good I guess.:tu

We do have Robinson and all he has accomplished and very happy with it, if you don't like that STF outta our board!!!! And yes Ginobili = Dirk would be more valid arguement than Dirk = Robinson. When you reach dynasty status then come with an arguement, meanwhile enjoy you slice and stop comparing it to those who has had the whole pie!

Greg Oden

06-17-2011, 03:02 PM

If anyone knows about faggy avatars....

.... it would be the guy with an austin powers picture. did you think that was funny or something when you chose it?

Axe Murderer

06-17-2011, 03:17 PM

Henke bullyin niggas in the post

:lmao

jjktkk

06-17-2011, 04:00 PM

.... it would be the guy with an austin powers picture. did you think that was funny or something when you chose it?

:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin: rollin

Gotdam that was funny, hope you here all week.

Greg Oden

06-17-2011, 04:13 PM

:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin: rollin

Gotdam that was funny, hope you here all week.

lol not having the mental capacity to post anything funny. Evidence by getting kicked out of school and forced to become a cop :lmao

jjktkk

06-17-2011, 04:27 PM

lol not having the mental capacity to post anything funny. Evidence by getting kicked out of school and forced to become a cop :lmao

Lol, Evidence? You get ahold of my transcript? Forced to become a cop? Comedy central stuff tbh. Next thing your gonna tell me, is you like to squat on Pepsi bottles.

Blake

06-17-2011, 04:32 PM

Next thing your gonna tell me, is you like to squat on Pepsi bottles.

:lmao Zing!

I bet the next thing youre gonna tell him is that your wife is going to run him over with a car because of the Pepsi.

Greg Oden

06-17-2011, 04:55 PM

Running "your posts aren't funny" smack right after avatar smack :lmao It's no wonder where you are currently in life.

Proxy

06-17-2011, 07:05 PM

Wasn't a winner? The man has two rings no matter how you slice it, he played in the Jordan era in his prime, and never had a legit wing man til Duncan came along. this arguement is retarded, Dirk could carry D-Rob's jock strap in any era! how is that for Arrogant! LOL at comparing an one dimensional, jump shooter to one of the top all around centers to ever play the game)

I'm just as much of a spurs fan as you, and the Admiral was my favorite player when I started watching the NBA... but I've got to say you're in denial.

First of all, when the fuck did anyone care or compare players based on a hypothetical one-on-one situation? Of course DRob would take Dirk in a pick up game... big deal. KG would take TD too, but we all know that doesn't factor into anything, greatness-wise.

Second of all, you, and the majority of the Spurs fans saying Admiral>Dirk are in a huge denial or you're a legit homer. David's game declined in the playoffs. That's why the Spurs never won shit until Duncan came into the picture. He never had the killer instinct of a champion.

Dirk on the other hand has been the opposite. He becomes an unstoppable force in the playoffs. We as Spurs fans, of all people, should know this. Out of all the people Bruce ever defended, Nowitzki was the hardest matchup. Stats aside, Dirk was clutch, and David wasn't. Dirk>Admiral

Hey Proxy, Findog and Mavfan1000, this guy just called you tards.

Kobe wasn't a winner in 05 to 07. I mean, when we compared Robinson vs. Dirk, we don't look at competition, defenses, teammates, coaches, nothing, we just look at the two players in a vacuum, and whether they led their teams to a championship, right? So why is this a faulty way of looking at a player's individual season?

Why would the best player not win the championship every single season? Why didn't Jordan win the championship before Phil Jackson, Scottie and Rodman/Grant? Why didn't Shaq win all the championships from 99 to 04? Why didn't Kobe lead his team past the 1st round between 05 to 07? Why did Dirk fail to lead the Mavs to a bunch of championships prior? Why didn't Duncan lead the Spurs to 5 consecutive titles from 03 to 07?

Wtf are you trying to say? Your sarcasm is failing you, and in your stupid-ass rant, you make the point that Robinson never *led* a team to shit, and Dirk did. Dominant HOF stats on both sides of the argument... one better at D, and the other better at O.....CLUTCH PLAY and STEPPING UP in the PLAYOFFS... separates the two players. Dirk is the greater of the two.

PS - I like how the Spurs hivemind uses "team based "accolades to defend Duncan as the greatest PF, but disregard them in an argument for Dirk and his FMVP... Spursnation says Kobe rode the coattails of Shaq, but the Admiral didn't ride TD's... consistency people!

4lifecowboy

06-17-2011, 07:37 PM

[QUOTE=Proxy;5308871]I'm just as much of a spurs fan as you, and the Admiral was my favorite player when I started watching the NBA... but I've got to say you're in denial.

First of all, when the fuck did anyone care or compare players based on a hypothetical one-on-one situation? Of course DRob would take Dirk in a pick up game... big deal. KG would take TD too, but we all know that doesn't factor into anything, greatness-wise.

Second of all, you, and the majority of the Spurs fans saying Admiral>Dirk are in a huge denial or you're a legit homer. David's game declined in the playoffs. That's why the Spurs never won shit until Duncan came into the picture. He never had the killer instinct of a champion.

Dirk on the other hand has been the opposite. He becomes an unstoppable force in the playoffs. We as Spurs fans, of all people, should know this. Out of all the people Bruce ever defended, Nowitzki was the hardest matchup. Stats aside, Dirk was clutch, and David wasn't. Dirk>Admiral

I don't care in what fashion you are making the comparison; who had the better career, who is better in a game of one on one, which would I build a team around, the answer would be the same.
Robinson's failures is mostly attributed to never having a legit wing man, if robinson's career was anchored in a larger market or had a free spending owner(something Dirk had the luxury of the majority of his career) the non validity of this comparison would be more obvious. How many times was the Mav's overhauled around Dirk? They finally get the right combination of players and circumstances and he's the second coming GTF outta here. Call it what you wanna call it Homerism, denial, I'll call it what is, common sense.

redzero

06-17-2011, 07:47 PM

Simple yet effective troll thread.

Proxy

06-17-2011, 07:55 PM

I don't care in what fashion you are making the comparison; who had the better career, who is better in a game of one on one, which would I build a team around, the answer would be the same.
Robinson's failures is mostly attributed to never having a legit wing man, if robinson's career was anchored in a larger market or had a free spending owner(something Dirk had the luxury of the majority of his career) the non validity of this comparison would be more obvious. How many times was the Mav's overhauled around Dirk? They finally get the right combination of players and circumstances and he's the second coming GTF outta here. Call it what you wanna call it Homerism, denial, I'll call it what is, common sense.

So you're just going to preach common sense and then go and ignore that Dirk's stats improve when it matters most, and DRob's declined? You're going to ignore that Dirk is obviously more clutch? That has nothing to do with the team, and everything with the individual.

PS - DRob has no rings without TD's existence.

jjktkk

06-17-2011, 08:20 PM

Running "your posts aren't funny" smack right after avatar smack :lmao It's no wonder where you are currently in life.

My adult life is fine, you still live with your parents?

Solid D

06-17-2011, 08:20 PM

Interesting question. Would the Spurs have won the title in 1999 if Mario Elie had not been signed as a FA? What if the Spurs had not selected 1st in '97 but had selected Tracy McGrady instead. Would they have won the title in '99 or '03?

Sometimes, it's a Tyson Chandler or a Shawn Marion move that makes the difference in winning an NBA Championship and losing to the Spurs in the first round. Same Dirk...just a tweak and a break elsewhere.

jjktkk

06-17-2011, 08:22 PM

:lmao Zing!

I bet the next thing youre gonna tell him is that your wife is going to run him over with a car because of the Pepsi.

Good idea, but I don't want my insurance premiums to go up. :lol

Nathan Explosion

06-17-2011, 08:59 PM

If Dirk had to face a prime DRob, he wouldn't have put up the numbers he did. A lot of "experts" want to say that Dwight Howard is the best defensive big man since Bill Russell, but they're forgetting that Hakeem and DRob played in the 90s. Both of those guys were better defenders than Howard.

In fact, you could make the case that Hakeem and DRob are two of the top 5 defensive centers in history (I'm not so sure, but it's not out of the realm of possibilty), definitely top 10.

DRob had the lateral quickness to negate Dirk's dribble drive game, the body strength to not let Dirk post up, and the athletic ability (read long arms and jumping ability) to bother Dirk's shot. The guy could jump out of the gym.

And he was no slouch as a help defender (protecting the rim) and rebounder. His footspeed allowed him to cover a lot of ground in a hurry.

Anyone who ever watched DRob play should know that his defense is head and shoulders above Dirk's, not even in the same hemisphere.

Oh, and DRob was known to have the ability to put the ball through the hoop too. If you're starting a franchise, you want DRob.

Now, if you're the Spurs, Dirk might be a better fit because of his perimeter game. So as someone stated many pages back, it depends on your team. If you're rebuilding, you take one of the best defensive big men of all time who can score at will too. If you need a major piece to put you over the top, Dirk will do.

DMC

06-18-2011, 01:50 AM

Wow, what a shitty take. So a finals mvp and a ring doesn't bump someone up the all time great list?
I didn't say anything about a list. I love how so many of you just read what you want to read.

It didn't make him a better player. He was that good already, just didn't have the hardware. Hardware improves your standing on lists. You get good first though.

Idiot

Nathan89

06-18-2011, 02:24 AM

I didn't say anything about a list. I love how so many of you just read what you want to read.

It didn't make him a better player. He was that good already, just didn't have the hardware. Hardware improves your standing on lists. You get good first though.

Idiot

Obviously, but now we know how good he actually is.

rmt

06-18-2011, 03:09 AM

100%duncan

06-18-2011, 04:44 AM

:lmao

4lifecowboy

06-18-2011, 04:45 AM

So you're just going to preach common sense and then go and ignore that Dirk's stats improve when it matters most, and DRob's declined? You're going to ignore that Dirk is obviously more clutch? That has nothing to do with the team, and everything with the individual.

PS - DRob has no rings without TD's existence.

WTF are you talking about? Without Pippen what would Jordan have? Without
Mahale what would Bird have? Without Terry (and Cuban) what would Dirk have? Of course your performance would decline without another player able to demand some sort of attention from the other team defensively. Clutch? By the way you're defining it Horry should be the GOAT, but he is not.

Russo21

06-18-2011, 07:25 AM

Proxy

06-18-2011, 12:35 PM

WTF are you talking about? Without Pippen what would Jordan have? Without
Mahale what would Bird have? Without Terry (and Cuban) what would Dirk have? Of course your performance would decline without another player able to demand some sort of attention from the other team defensively. Clutch? By the way you're defining it Horry should be the GOAT, but he is not.

Horry argument + Terry & Cuban = 4lifecowboy the homer idiot.

and I see you're still not addressing the playoff performances and clutchness factors I put out there.

You're close minded, so I'm done talking to you.

PS - I'm sure MJ and Bird would've gotten rings

Nathan Explosion

06-18-2011, 12:42 PM

Enough bickering guys. All i know is this...

It'd be a matchup for the ages watching prime dirk and prime david going against each other!! :-)

Dirk is one of the most unstoppable offensive forces in the game today. Of all the guys i can think of over the last 20 or so years in regards to defending nowitzki, i'd say David Robinson would be best equipped to guard him, with strength, quickness, height and awareness. Whether he'd win or not i dont care. It'd just be a heck of a matchup.

As would Dirk vs Hakeem
&
Dirk vs Dennis Rodman

All three of those matchups would have been must see:-)

Ironically, a prime Dirk would be owned by DRob, Hakeem and Rodman. Dirk wasn't tough or smart enough to beat those guys (in case of Hakeem and DRob, I'm not sure he's smart enough even now).

Rodman would be in Dirk's head much more than Stephen Jackson was. Dirk is a tougher player now, so Rodman may not be as effective later in Dirk's career than earlier. And DRob and Hakeem had the athleticism, footspeed and quickness to negate any advantage Dirk has over other big men.

Nathan Explosion

06-18-2011, 12:46 PM

Don't know how some people can so under-rate defense - it is half of the game. It's just the typical what have you done lately. Here's an interesting article:

http://www.fullcourtpest.com/2011/06/dirk-is-great-but-lets-take-it-easy.html

specifically - "he lacks certain things that most of those players in that upper echelon possess, such as a dominant impact on the defensive end. Or some other skill to fall back on when his shot isn't falling (in game 6, when he was busy going 4-21 through 3 quarters, what else was Dirk doing to try to impact the game? Not a whole lot). He's not a great rebounder for his size (I don't care how far away he is from the basket during the offense, no 7 footer should only grab 2 offensive rebounds in a 6 game series).

If I'm starting a franchise, I'm picking TD, DRob and KG over Dirk.

Dallas won the title with their defense, aka Tyson Chandler, Jason Kidd and Shawn Marion. Dirk may have been the MVP on the offensive end, but Marion's defense made him a darkhorse for the award in the Finals. Can't say enough about how he got in Lebron's head. Defense wins championships. Can't be ignored. DRob is the best defensive big man of the 3 guys you mentioned.

barbacoataco

06-18-2011, 05:56 PM

There is no answer to this question. Even though they are both "bigs" their games are so different it's like comparing apples to oranges.

1. Dirk without a doubt is the superior offensive player. Even though DRob scored a ton of points and even led the NBA in scoring once, in pressure situations he did not have a "go to" move that could produce. Dirk obviously does.

2. By the same token, DRob was a VASTLY superior defender, rebounder, shot-blocker, much faster and athletic overall.

They are both great players and I would leave it at that.

DMC

06-18-2011, 07:52 PM

Obviously, but now we know how good he actually is.
The list is for those who don't watch the game, who just sit around running their mouths about teams they don't even see play and comparing players they haven't even watched.

Anyone who's watched the Mavs play for the past however many years knows how good Dirk is already.

ambchang

06-20-2011, 06:54 AM

Spurs fans acting like 1995 and 2011 never happened.:tu

Robinson played in 2011?

Dirk erased his past failures with a legendary postseason run and a championship as the unquestionable #1 guy.
When exactly Robinson exorcized his demons from 1995?With coatailling one of the Top7 players of all time and finally winning?

You can erase past choking, like it never happened? After all the Mavs went through between 2006 to 2010, I would have thought Mavs fans, out of all people, would understand tha a player's playoff performance have as much to do with game plan, matchups, and just when you are hot or not at a particular moment.

But people just like to think about an entire's team performance is the work or one player.

And since YOU mention 2006 and 2007,I don't care about Robinson's poor supporting cast in 1995,or any other excuse,no matter how legit they are(I agree that the Spurs front office failed him).
I have plenty of them for 2006 and 2007 too.Especially for 2006.:tu

Any person with a reasonable ability to read should be able to understand that is entirely my point, where Dirk played on flawed teams in 06 and 07, where the Mavs haven't yet learned of how to build a team around a player as unique as Dirk. They finally figured it out in 11.

The Spurs never figured out how to build around Robinson (which should have been pretty simple, such as not having a PG who made one playoff 3pter in his career, or not having a PF who goes nuts and chucks 6 three pointers in an important playoff game, or not having starting SG who can't even get decent minutes on some of the worst teams in the history of the league).

Robinson and Dirk are very similar player:
1) Both are too nice to speak up and challenge front office
2) Both are talents so unique at their positions

as a result, both went through painful stretches in their career where they had to toil with some teams that are constructed to have them carry the whole weight.

I don't have a problem with this.
As I wrote before,it's just rediculous for someone to believe that this is not a legit comparison,that Robinson is on an entire different level than Dirk and Mavs fans just being cocky after winning the ship.

It is not a legit comparison, both are comparable offensively, and Robinson is much better defensively. Next thing you know, people will talk about how Billups is better than Oscar Robertson and Jerry West because Billups won it all as the lead guy.

I mean,after all I can understand what Robinson means to the Spurs and the city of San Antonio in general and why you feel the need to bump him up because he was unlucky(great talent/failed by teammates and front office during his prime).

So how would I feel the need to bump him up? It has much more to do with the fact that Robinson was underrated his entire career and beyond because non-Spurs fans rarely associate him with success. An issue that was in no part his problem (Jerry Tarkanian? Jerry Lucas? Bob Hill? Give me a break). Spurs fans witnessed how Robinson took an otherwise 21-win team into a 55-win team year after year, how the front office kept throwing these ridiculously underwhelming supporting casts around him and set him up for failure year after year. Non-Spurs fan just looked at how the Spurs failed in the playoffs, and put the blame squarely on Robinson.

I won't even mind that much if people were more consistent with how they evaluate players, but they don't. People don't apply the same standards to players like Barkley (who I think is top3 PF of all time, over that pedophile choker), or Ewing (who had a far superior supporting cast), Garnett (who couldn't get anything done until he got onto one of the most stacked team in modern NBA history), or even pre-2000 Shaq (check his PO numbers vs. his regular season numbers). But for some reason, and I am guessing it's because Robinson doesn't scream in front of a camera, or make outlandish promises year after year, people just continue to diss on him.

ambchang

06-20-2011, 07:10 AM

I'm just as much of a spurs fan as you, and the Admiral was my favorite player when I started watching the NBA... but I've got to say you're in denial.

First of all, when the fuck did anyone care or compare players based on a hypothetical one-on-one situation? Of course DRob would take Dirk in a pick up game... big deal. KG would take TD too, but we all know that doesn't factor into anything, greatness-wise.

Given how TD post up similar numbers to Garnett in head to head games how do you figure?

Second of all, you, and the majority of the Spurs fans saying Admiral>Dirk are in a huge denial or you're a legit homer. David's game declined in the playoffs. That's why the Spurs never won shit until Duncan came into the picture. He never had the killer instinct of a champion.

I always figured Robinson couldn't win anything because Avery Johnson and Vinny Del Negro were his STARTGING backcourt, and his coach was John Lucas. Where as dominant other big man who won anything in their life has a backcourt portfolio of Kobe Bryant, Clyde Drexler, Magic Johnson, Maurice Cheeks, Manu Ginobili, Bob Cousy, Clyde Frasier and such. The worst I found were Kenny Smith and Vernon Maxwell, who had a guy named Sam Cassell and Mario Elie backing them up.

Coaches range from Pat Riley to Phil Jackson, from Red Archibald to Jack Ramsey. I mean, John Lucas, what the hell?

Dirk on the other hand has been the opposite. He becomes an unstoppable force in the playoffs. We as Spurs fans, of all people, should know this. Out of all the people Bruce ever defended, Nowitzki was the hardest matchup. Stats aside, Dirk was clutch, and David wasn't. Dirk>Admiral

This is just hilarious, Dirk was the poster boy of choke up till 2011 (nonsense where I never subscribed to), and he suddenly became clutch because of one playoff run? This is like saying Stalin is a nice guy because he saved a litter of puppies before he died.

Wtf are you trying to say? Your sarcasm is failing you, and in your stupid-ass rant, you make the point that Robinson never *led* a team to shit, and Dirk did. Dominant HOF stats on both sides of the argument... one better at D, and the other better at O.....CLUTCH PLAY and STEPPING UP in the PLAYOFFS... separates the two players. Dirk is the greater of the two.

How is Dirk better on O? He led the league in scoring? He led his team in assists? He shot better than Robinson from the field? How was he better, exactly?

Unless you were trying to say Dirk was better on D ....

PS - I like how the Spurs hivemind uses "team based "accolades to defend Duncan as the greatest PF, but disregard them in an argument for Dirk and his FMVP... Spursnation says Kobe rode the coattails of Shaq, but the Admiral didn't ride TD's... consistency people!

Duncan was the greatest PF of all time because he was great on O and D, was easy to build around, and understands the game.

And Robinson most definitely rode the coattails in 99 and 03, no question.

ambchang

06-20-2011, 07:14 AM

weebo

06-20-2011, 09:58 AM

Let's put it this way. If both Dirk and David played each other in their primes, David would most definitely shut Dirk's ass down while on the other end taking to the hole at will.

Spurs da champs

06-20-2011, 10:02 AM

D Rob never won a championship on his own because he never had a supporting cast like Dirk nuff said.

mavsfan1000

06-20-2011, 06:48 PM

D Rob never won a championship on his own because he never had a supporting cast like Dirk nuff said.
:rolleyes

Agloco

06-21-2011, 08:37 AM

Wow, what a shitty take. So a finals mvp and a ring doesn't bump someone up the all time great list?

Depends on who he earned it against tbh.

People want to vault Dirk ahead of Karl Malone on this basis. They forget that Malone was in two straight finals but had the misfortune of meeting the GOAT each time. Ditto for Barkley (x1).

Rings are great but when there's only one, context counts a hell of a lot more.

Agloco

06-21-2011, 08:40 AM

D Rob never won a championship on his own because he never had a supporting cast like Dirk nuff said.

:rolleyes

OK....give a supporting cast that DRob had before he won in 1999 that was better than what Dirk has today.

Axe Murderer

06-21-2011, 01:58 PM

Depends on who he earned it against tbh.

People want to vault Dirk ahead of Karl Malone on this basis. They forget that Malone was in two straight finals but had the misfortune of meeting the GOAT each time. Ditto for Barkley (x1).

Rings are great but when there's only one, context counts a hell of a lot more.

That's a good point

Dirk had to face scrubs like Kobe/Gasol, Durant/Westbrook, and LeBron/Wade/Bosh

Spurs da champs

06-21-2011, 02:26 PM

That's a good point

Dirk had to face scrubs like Kobe/Gasol, Durant/Westbrook, and LeBron/Wade/Bosh

Yeah an old washed up Kobe, with Gasoft and Thunder were too young. And they had faced an epic Choker in Lebron. Way tough.:rolleyes

Axe Murderer

06-21-2011, 02:36 PM

Yeah an old washed up Kobe, with Gasoft and Thunder were too young. And they had faced an epic Choker in Lebron. Way tough.:rolleyes

lol

Axe Murderer

06-21-2011, 02:38 PM

Malone couldn't even beat an overrated chucker in MJ in two attempts.

See what i did there?

Spurs da champs

06-21-2011, 04:40 PM

Malone couldn't even beat an overrated chucker in MJ in two attempts.

See what i did there?

Now you're just acting stupid. SMH.:blah

Axe Murderer

06-21-2011, 04:40 PM

Now you're just acting stupid. SMH.:blah

Jordan was an overrated chucker

/thread

Agloco

06-21-2011, 04:48 PM

That's a good point

Dirk had to face scrubs like Kobe/Gasol, Durant/Westbrook, and LeBron/Wade/Bosh

It is what it is.

Any competition you could name is a rung below the GOAT and his band of merry men.

Proxy

06-21-2011, 05:32 PM

Come on Proxy, everyone knows you are a troll of a Mavs fan (likely Axe's), stop with the Spurs fan shtick.

pfft. I'd be willing to prove to you that I'm a legit Spurs fan. I was a Chicago fan when I was younger, and became a Spurs fan due to the Admiral. I started becoming a more serious fan when I went to my first game in 98, CHI at SA at the alamo dome... it was MJ's last game as a Bull in SA. Two rings later, SA became a religion for me when Manu came on to the scene. Been die hard since then.

With that being said, the difference from you and me, is that I'm not a homer. I remember watching the Spurs pre-TD, and always being disappointed in the Admiral for not having the killer instinct and clutch performances that I saw in MJ.

Don't give me the team bullshit either. You're going to tell me that the 95 team wasn't good enough? Rodman, Elliott, and Avery... c'mon. Who did Dirk have this year that wasn't equivalent to that? old Kidd, Marion, and Chandler?

You can be a Spurs fan, but it's plain dumb to act like every Spurs player is the GOAT at their position. Dirk doesn't play defense. He would get raped one-on-one... sure, but this is a team game, and we base HOF players on their achievements.

To say their offenses are comparable is moronic. Throw stats out the window, Dirk did what it took to win, and he was the 4th quarter guy in nearly every single playoff game up to the end of the finals.

I love defense as much as the next silver and black guy, but at some point you have to recognize that Dirk is a freak offensive force. I mean, Dirk's injury in 03 was huge. Let's not forget 06 either. One of the best ever, and he erased his choke-job label by LEADING his team to a ring. Something that D-Rob was never able to do.

Proxy

06-21-2011, 05:33 PM

It is what it is.

Any competition you could name is a rung below the GOAT and his band of merry men.

Base Spurs greatness on winning

Glorify losing teams to devalue rival

4lifecowboy

06-21-2011, 07:06 PM

pfft. I'd be willing to prove to you that I'm a legit Spurs fan. I was a Chicago fan when I was younger, and became a Spurs fan due to the Admiral. I started becoming a more serious fan when I went to my first game in 98, CHI at SA at the alamo dome... it was MJ's last game as a Bull in SA. Two rings later, SA became a religion for me when Manu came on to the scene. Been die hard since then.

With that being said, the difference from you and me, is that I'm not a homer. I remember watching the Spurs pre-TD, and always being disappointed in the Admiral for not having the killer instinct and clutch performances that I saw in MJ.

Don't give me the team bullshit either. You're going to tell me that the 95 team wasn't good enough? Rodman, Elliott, and Avery... c'mon. Who did Dirk have this year that wasn't equivalent to that? old Kidd, Marion, and Chandler?
You can be a Spurs fan, but it's plain dumb to act like every Spurs player is the GOAT at their position. Dirk doesn't play defense. He would get raped one-on-one... sure, but this is a team game, and we base HOF players on their achievements.

To say their offenses are comparable is moronic. Throw stats out the window, Dirk did what it took to win, and he was the 4th quarter guy in nearly every single playoff game up to the end of the finals.

I love defense as much as the next silver and black guy, but at some point you have to recognize that Dirk is a freak offensive force. I mean, Dirk's injury in 03 was huge. Let's not forget 06 either. One of the best ever, and he erased his choke-job label by LEADING his team to a ring. Something that D-Rob was never able to do.

Are you seriously saying they were comparable? You left out Terry, Barrera and Stevenson all of which step up at vital times to take the burden off of Dirk who was doing that for Robinson?

Robinson injury was devastating. W/Robinson 50+ wins injured Robinson= lottery.

Spurs da champs

06-21-2011, 07:11 PM

Proxy needs to get Dirk's balls out of his throat. Fucking mavs fan pretending to be Spurs fan.

4lifecowboy

06-21-2011, 07:12 PM

Dirk is a very solid all star not taking that away from him but he is on the Gervin, Ginobili teir he isn't on the Robinson, Duncan level it isnt even arguable as far as I'm concerned.

Proxy

06-21-2011, 08:18 PM

Are you seriously saying they were comparable? You left out Terry, Barrera and Stevenson all of which step up at vital times to take the burden off of Dirk who was doing that for Robinson?

Robinson injury was devastating. W/Robinson 50+ wins injured Robinson= lottery.

you mean all the bench players?

and the stepping up at vital times.... when did Dirk need a release of burden this playoffs? He made the shots himself in the 4th quarter.

Proxy

06-21-2011, 08:23 PM

Proxy needs to get Dirk's balls out of his throat. Fucking mavs fan pretending to be Spurs fan.

good job.Why don't you try and debate my arguments with logic instead of typing cowardly insults from behind your keyboard, bitch. So far, NO ONE has debunked my statement that Dirk is far more clutch than Rob ever was.

4lifecowboy

06-21-2011, 11:36 PM

good job.Why don't you try and debate my arguments with logic instead of typing cowardly insults from behind your keyboard, bitch. So far, NO ONE has debunked my statement that Dirk is far more clutch than Rob ever was.

You are changing the original question? The question is who would you rank higher as a player. If clutch (or your definition of it) was the criteria Ginobili out ranks Dirk as a player. So what Dirk had a streak (this year, keeping in mind he failed so many times before this year) that carried him thru the finals. If you think he did it by himself, you evidently didn't watch the series, Terry's performance was just as vital to their success as Dirk's. You will never convince me that a 7ft perimeter player should get as many free throws as he does, in short he hasn't did anything to wow me, his stats are padded. Robinson faced double and triple teams his entire career, without ever having a real supporting cast. I guarentee 99% of GM wouldnt think twice about picking Robinson over Dirk in any scenerio, well short of a game of around the world from outside the arc.

Proxy

06-22-2011, 01:49 AM

You are changing the original question? The question is who would you rank higher as a player. If clutch (or your definition of it) was the criteria Ginobili out ranks Dirk as a player. So what Dirk had a streak (this year, keeping in mind he failed so many times before this year) that carried him thru the finals. If you think he did it by himself, you evidently didn't watch the series, Terry's performance was just as vital to their success as Dirk's. You will never convince me that a 7ft perimeter player should get as many free throws as he does, in short he hasn't did anything to wow me, his stats are padded. Robinson faced double and triple teams his entire career, without ever having a real supporting cast. I guarentee 99% of GM wouldnt think twice about picking Robinson over Dirk in any scenerio, well short of a game of around the world from outside the arc.

I'm not changing the question... ? Are you saying that being clutch has nothing to do with a player's ranking?

(Nice pettifog with Manu btw)

No one ever does it by themselves, though, Terry was hugely absent outside G6. Marion was the Mavs second best player against MIA, playing good defense on LBJ.

Saying his stats are padded and that he doesn't deserve the free throws is homer.

Robinson faced double and triple teams. So does Dirk.

Given that Dirk led his team to a ring, and Robinson didn't, I don't think 99% GMs would pick against a ring. Nice try though.

ambchang

06-22-2011, 08:11 AM

pfft. I'd be willing to prove to you that I'm a legit Spurs fan. I was a Chicago fan when I was younger, and became a Spurs fan due to the Admiral. I started becoming a more serious fan when I went to my first game in 98, CHI at SA at the alamo dome... it was MJ's last game as a Bull in SA. Two rings later, SA became a religion for me when Manu came on to the scene. Been die hard since then.

With that being said, the difference from you and me, is that I'm not a homer. I remember watching the Spurs pre-TD, and always being disappointed in the Admiral for not having the killer instinct and clutch performances that I saw in MJ.

Don't give me the team bullshit either. You're going to tell me that the 95 team wasn't good enough? Rodman, Elliott, and Avery... c'mon. Who did Dirk have this year that wasn't equivalent to that? old Kidd, Marion, and Chandler?

You can be a Spurs fan, but it's plain dumb to act like every Spurs player is the GOAT at their position. Dirk doesn't play defense. He would get raped one-on-one... sure, but this is a team game, and we base HOF players on their achievements.

To say their offenses are comparable is moronic. Throw stats out the window, Dirk did what it took to win, and he was the 4th quarter guy in nearly every single playoff game up to the end of the finals.

I love defense as much as the next silver and black guy, but at some point you have to recognize that Dirk is a freak offensive force. I mean, Dirk's injury in 03 was huge. Let's not forget 06 either. One of the best ever, and he erased his choke-job label by LEADING his team to a ring. Something that D-Rob was never able to do.

So you became a fan in 98 because of the Admiral? What? You like to follow players after they have a career threatening injury or what? And how would you know squat about the prime of the Admiral after you became a fan in 98?

A bulls fan, then a Spurs fan after Duncan joined, I would call this a definition of a bandwaggoner. Good to see you hopping on the Mavs bandwagon right now, you can be a Heat fan next year.

And the 95 was good enough? Elliott, as much as I love him, choked two crucial FTs in Game 1, Rodman chucked 3 three pointers in game 2 (all in the first half if I remember) for now reason, and refused to guard Horry because he was too busy stat padding his rebounds, and Avery Johnson couldn't hit an outside shot in his life.

Do you mean to tell me an insane Rodman, Elliott and Johnson are as good as Kidd, Chandler, Marion, and Terry?

I am still trying to wrap my head around how you would know so much about Robinson after he got his back and knees destroyed in 96.

ambchang

06-22-2011, 08:16 AM

you mean all the bench players?

and the stepping up at vital times.... when did Dirk need a release of burden this playoffs? He made the shots himself in the 4th quarter.

Did you watch Game 6? I mean, Dirk was phenomenal throughout the playoffs, and I have to admit that it was something Robinson never did in the playoffs, but so what? It's so much easier to nail shots when you know you can count on your teammates to nail down open shots, than it is to have the opposition drapped all over you throughout the series because you know the PG cannot nail wide open jump shots, and the PF wouldn't even take a shot unless they are ill-advised three pointers. To top it off, you have a SG named Vinny Del Negro, who can't even get reasonable minutes in the early 90's Kings and late 90's Bucks, which are some of the worst teams in the history of the league).

The only reasonable offensive relief Robinson had was Sean Elliott, and while Elliott was one of my favourite players, we are not talking about Kobe Bryant, Dwayne Wade, Clyde Drexler, Scottie Pippen, Joe Dumars, James Worthy, Kevin Mchale, or even Manu Ginobili sort of talent here.

ambchang

06-22-2011, 08:36 AM

I'm not changing the question... ? Are you saying that being clutch has nothing to do with a player's ranking?

(Nice pettifog with Manu btw)

I am challenging how Dirk Nowitzki would go from being the poster boy of choke to the definition of clutch in one playoffs. It shows an absolute lack of understanding of the game, and the history of the game to make that assertion. Robinson had 13/17 in his last game in the Finals, does that make him clutch?

No one ever does it by themselves, though, Terry was hugely absent outside G6. Marion was the Mavs second best player against MIA, playing good defense on LBJ.

Terry scored 12, 16, 15, 17, 21, and 27 points in the 6 games vs. the Heat. You know how many players Robinson had in his prime who could do that off the bench? Zero. In fact, he had ONE player who could do that throughout his prime, and that was his absolute best player he played with, Sean Elliott. So a player would could be noted as "hugely absent", a player who plays off the bench for Dirk is comparable in output to Robinson's best teammate. I guess you answered your own question as to why the 11 Mavs had more playoff success than any of the Robinson Spurs.

Oh, why don't you also look up how many 3's the Mavs nailed in their victories, and how 3's Robinson Spurs nailed in theirs, then ask yourself this. Is it easier for an inside player to score when you have the room to operate because your teammates are nailing open shots when the opposition doubles/triples you, or is to easier to score when the opposition knows your teammates will clank wide open jumpers.

BTW, that "absent" Jason Terry scored 17.5 ppg on 47.8 FG%, 44.2 3pt% in the entire playoffs off the bench. The 2nd best Marion scored 11.9, grabbed 6.9 rebounds, and played great defense, while Jason Kidd, grabbed 9.3 ppg and dished out 7.3 assists with 4.5 rebounds.

The Spurs have their best 3 pt shooter (Person), shoot 29% on 3s, had a grand total of 3 games out of 6 vs. the Rockets were one player got double digits in points off the bench (Doc Rivers in games 2 and 4, and Terry Cummings in Game 5.

The Spurs 3 pt shooting in those games were 2/8, 4/18 (Robinson scored 32 on 10 of 18 shooting), 9/19 (A game where Robinson had a decent showing of 29 points on 10/15 shooting), 4/13, 2/7, 2/7. Robinson had two decent game in the entire series when his teammates were actually shooting the ball from outside. His teammates didn't even have to nail the shots, they just have to be a threat.

Saying his stats are padded and that he doesn't deserve the free throws is homer.

Robinson faced double and triple teams. So does Dirk.

I seem to recall watching the Heat single-teamming Dirk most of the time, and that is because he was on the perimeter facing up a lot. Can't blame the Heat though, I mean, are you going to double off Marion, Kidd, Barea or Terry? All of them can actually nail shots.

Given that Dirk led his team to a ring, and Robinson didn't, I don't think 99% GMs would pick against a ring. Nice try though.

You think? You also think 99% of GMs would pick Billups over John Stockton? You also think 99% of GMs would pick Dennis Johnson over Charles Barkley?