Dirk is the best power forward to ever play the game

[Muse]

After Tim Duncan

and here is why

KG - Had to go to Boston to finally get that first ring, he had Paul Pierce, Ray Allen and Rajon Rondo. He proved that he couldn't and wasn't willing to stay loyal to the Timberwolves and decided to take the easy way out. His stats might be better than Dirk's but at least Dirk isn't hated by his former teammates and doesn't punch them.

Basically KG will get you a few more rebounds, and a few more blocked shots, but Dirk will get you that game winning basket or game tying 3 pointer. Dirk led his team to the top being the alpha dog, and the unquestioned leader of the Dallas Mavericks, the franchise that was the worst in all of sports during the 90's. Dirk has played a vital role in the Mavs 11 year 50 consecutive win seasons, and he just topped it off with an NBA championship and Finals MVP.

Finals MVP >> Regular season DPOY

I also think Dirk's defense isn't credited enough, his defense is average but not bad. He's also a great help defender but of course 99% of NBA fans will not notice since they go by what the "experts" over at ESPN tell them.

Let's not forget who the Mavericks beat in the finals

The trio of Lebron James (arguably the best player in the NBA) Dwyane Wade (top 5 player in the NBA) and Chris Bosh an all-star player that used to be a number one option when he played for the Raptors.

As for Karl Malone, his performance usually dropped once the playoffs started. Great stats, good resume but just could never come through.

Barkley is overrated imo

Top 5 PF
Tim Duncan
Dirk Nowitzki
Karl Malone
Charles Barkley

[devmavs]

i agree completely and utterly

[devmavs]

um...How do I change my team in my profile? It's pretty obvious that I'm a Mavs fan...

[DPG21920]

So TP is a top PG as well?

[Girasuck]

Tim Duncan is a PF?

:rollin

[100%duncan]

dirk>>>>>duncan tbh, dirk carried his team singlehandedly while tired old shitbag didn't, and defense is overrated so yeah

[BlackSwordsMan]

100%benedictarnold

[JoeTait75]

Tim Duncan is a center.

[BlackSwordsMan]

Is TD a top 5 center?

[BlackSwordsMan]

Top #2? yeahhh

[BlackSwordsMan]

Clevland likes to hire old tired shit bag centers past their prime what are the chances hes a cav next year?

[Proxy]

Tim Duncan is a center.

Yep. Robinson, Nesterovic, Mohommed, and Oberto all played PF while TD was playing C. :bang

[mavsfan1000]

Duncan is a C/PF while Dirk is a PF/SF. Either way, they both are best at PF.

[Pelicans78]

If Duncan was never drafted by the Spurs, he would have been a center his whole career.

[DMC]

If Duncan was never drafted by the Spurs, he would have been a center his whole career.

Wow, the alternate universe viewer... what's it like?

[Nathan89]

If Duncan was never drafted by the Spurs, he would have been a center his whole career.

Unless that team picked up players like Rasho,Nazr,Elson,Oberto...

[dunkman]

Pau was highly regarded by many Laker fans . . .

[frodo]

Is TD a top 5 center?

nope, Kareem/Chamberlain/Dream/Shaq all be better centers then Tim imo and the massive chink fans will ram SHITE in there as well, TD ain't a top 5 neither as a PF nor C imho

[DPG21920]

^ :lmao wrong about Tyson and the Mavs.

[frodo]

^ :lmao wrong about Tyson and the Mavs.

wrong bout dem mavs maybe but i was right bout TC. i praised dat move on TC's arrival when the rest of you bashed it, didn't expect it to be THAT huge though. C was their shortest stave prior to that trade, so a quality big would be a better signing than a surplus at SG/SF despite that Iggy/G-force all be arguably better players individually. i said those all based on tactical knowledge tbh. although TC seemed a bit injury prone the past years, he was never like da 7'6 SHITE and even if he gets injured and misses some games we have a decent backup plan in brendan haywood.

[Isitjustme?]

Duncan was a pf until 2006.

[Agloco]

After Tim Duncan

and here is why

KG - Had to go to Boston to finally get that first ring, he had Paul Pierce, Ray Allen and Rajon Rondo. He proved that he couldn't and wasn't willing to stay loyal to the Timberwolves and decided to take the easy way out. His stats might be better than Dirk's but at least Dirk isn't hated by his former teammates and doesn't punch them.

Basically KG will get you a few more rebounds, and a few more blocked shots, but Dirk will get you that game winning basket or game tying 3 pointer. Dirk led his team to the top being the alpha dog, and the unquestioned leader of the Dallas Mavericks, the franchise that was the worst in all of sports during the 90's. Dirk has played a vital role in the Mavs 11 year 50 consecutive win seasons, and he just topped it off with an NBA championship and Finals MVP.

Finals MVP >> Regular season DPOY

I also think Dirk's defense isn't credited enough, his defense is average but not bad. He's also a great help defender but of course 99% of NBA fans will not notice since they go by what the "experts" over at ESPN tell them.

Let's not forget who the Mavericks beat in the finals

The trio of Lebron James (arguably the best player in the NBA) Dwyane Wade (top 5 player in the NBA) and Chris Bosh an all-star player that used to be a number one option when he played for the Raptors.

As for Karl Malone, his performance usually dropped once the playoffs started. Great stats, good resume but just could never come through.

Barkley is overrated imo

Top 5 PF
Tim Duncan
Dirk Nowitzki
Karl Malone
Charles Barkley

A woefully inadequate synopsis of Barkley's and Malone's achievements. But we tend to do that to retired players. If you're going to argue the PF-GOAT, then you need to give a fair shake to all contestants.

It's clear that you're biased and I have to disagree with Malone (and Barkley) here. He faced the GOAT and his band of merry of men two straight years in the finals. Were it not for that, the Mailman would have a ring or two and a finals MVP or two as well.

Who has Dirk or KG faced that even remotely compares? Yes Finals MVP weighs heavily, but you can't leave out the context.

PS - You can make the same argument for Barkley here too.

If Dirk and crew come back and do this again next year, I'll have a longer look at the argument. How does the old saying go?

One is a fluke, two is a coincidence, three is a trend.

[Leetonidas]

I think Sir Charles is starting to become extremely underrated. Dude was a fucking monster in his prime. So was Malone, they just had the misfortune of playing in the Jordan era like so many other ringless legends. I'm not saying I'd rate either above Dirk, because I think Dirk is tied for #2 with KG personally, but to just say "Barkley is overrated. Malone disappeared in the playoffs" and leave it at that is kind of a lame argument.

[lefty]

Dirk is not even a PF

He is a tall SG

[pass1st]

Dirk has a strong argument for #2 or #3. Barkley was an abnormally dominant PF that was the same height as an SG. He had to contend with the Rockets and Bulls which would 4-0 any team in the league right now, so him not ringing in his prime is understandable.

Dirk has more time on his clock, though. The Heat aren't shit compared to the 90s powerhouse teams, but beating them with less talent is noteworthy.

[stretch]

Who has Dirk or KG faced that even remotely compares? Yes Finals MVP weighs heavily, but you can't leave out the context.

:wtf

You mean to tell me that Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant, Shaq, Lebron, and Wade (5 different players who have a good chance to go down as being widely considered top 10 of all time) does not outweigh Jordan aaaaaaand... Jordan? Please, no one else aside from MJ in the 90s is even remotely considered as a top 10 player ever. I guess maybe Shaq, but the level of dominance he had during his title run was superior to his play during the MJ era. Maybe Hakeem, although again, Barkley and Malone both had their shots at the title over Hakeem, and at that time, Hakeem was not neccesarily in his prime any longer.

While I do agree Dirk is #2 behind Timmy as best PF ever, I think the OPs summary of why had some holes in his points as well. But to say that Dirk and KG never had to go though the competition that Barkley/Malone went through in the 90s is horseshit.

Truth is, the 90's was a pretty weak era, top to bottom. The 80s and 2000s both have had far more talent and competition, top to bottom. Your argument is garbage saying that if Malone and Barkley didnt have to deal with MJ, they would have multiple titles. The same could be true for Dirk and KG if they didnt have to deal with a shitload of potential top-10 or 15 players, as opposed to ONE that Malone and Barkley dealt with. Take away the players I listed early, and every title this decade is won by Dirk/KG most likely. So you see how ridiculous of an argument that is?

[stretch]

He had to contend with the Rockets and Bulls which would 4-0 any team in the league right now, so him not ringing in his prime is understandable.

this is a fucking dumbass statement

i loved MJs bulls, but they had their share of struggles in various playoff series as well, along with playing in a rather weak league. they werent as invincable as people make them out to be. 4-0ing every team in the league right now? i guess the Pacers in 98 would 4-1 every team in the league right now, considering they were very close to beating the Bulls.

retarded

[BlackSwordsMan]

invincable?

[Leetonidas]

this is a fucking dumbass statement

i loved MJs bulls, but they had their share of struggles in various playoff series as well, along with playing in a rather weak league. they werent as invincable as people make them out to be. 4-0ing every team in the league right now? i guess the Pacers in 98 would 4-1 every team in the league right now, considering they were very close to beating the Bulls.

retarded

They might 4-0 everyone simply because Jordan would be averaging 20 FTs a game with the new rules on the perimeter not to mention centers can't just camp under the lane anymore.

Also it depends on if we're talking 91-93 Bulls or 96-98 because those are vastly different teams except for Phil, Jordan, and Pippen. The second threepeat team had a slightly older Jordan but they also had Rodman who would be a defensive nightmare for a lot of guys in the league today, not to mention Pip.

I'd like to see the 96 Bulls play the 2011 Heat because I am interested to see Wade and Jordan guard each other while LeBron and Pippen guard each other.

[stretch]

They might 4-0 everyone simply because Jordan would be averaging 20 FTs a game with the new rules on the perimeter not to mention centers can't just camp under the lane anymore.

Doubt it.

They took away handchecking, added zone defense, which presents its own share of trouble for scorers, as evidenced by Kobe, Durant, and Lebron's failures against the Mavs.

If I personally could choose between one or the other, I would take zone all day long. A well ran zone defense is a great team concept that can completely disrupt the flow of an opposing offense if used in the right way.

Handchecking is just a one-on-one trick, that allows defenders to get away with a little extra fouling out on the perimeter, although considering the incredible level of athleticism these days, handchecking isnt as neccesary to keep up with elite guys like Bron or Wade (or in the case of the 90s, MJ).

I would rather my whole team put their heads together and use smart rotations, good communication, and timely court placement to put forth a complete defensive effort.



On a side note, if handchecking was such a great defensive tool, that if a team wasnt allowed to do it to the Bulls, they would be swept in a series, consider the fact that what made the Bulls so much tougher was their physical, strong defense. Them not being allowed to handcheck would likewise cause their defense to drop considerably. So it works both ways.

[stretch]

yeah handchecking didnt make it any harder to score crofl

bro you ever played basketball and had some annoying slow ass try to hand check you because he couldn't keep up? makes it hard to fucking drive tbh

I didnt say it doesnt make it any harder, but in a league with a shitstorm of supreme athletes, I don't think handchecking makes as massive of a difference as people think.

Plus, it's not going to affect you nearly as much if you have a post game, much like MJ had. My point is, I don't think handchecking or no handchecking would make too much of a difference in MJs case. And this isnt even including the fact that MJ still was given calls for handchecking anyways, so it doesnt matter.

[stretch]

Pretty sure magic played till 92' bro, besides Shaq and Hakeem I mean. There are also a shit ton in that top 25 range like barkley, malone, stockton, thomas, robinson, etc. don't be stupid brah.

Are you retarded?

Magic retired after getting assfucked by MJ in the Finals. Barkley and Malone are the two players in question, so they arent included in the list obviously, and Stockton played with Malone, so that scratches another one off. Thomas was heavily in decline in the 90s. Robinson is the only player on your list that actually makes a remote bit of sense.

[dirk4mvp]

Are you retarded?

Magic retired after getting assfucked by MJ in the Finals. Barkley and Malone are the two players in question, so they arent included in the list obviously, and Stockton played with Malone, so that scratches another one off. Thomas was heavily in decline in the 90s. Robinson is the only player on your list that actually makes a remote bit of sense.

Why do you say this after seeing a list with Hakeem on it?

[stretch]

By my count at least 4 top 10 all time players played at least part of their careers in the 90's imho.

Thats stupid. Thats like saying one of the 5 greatest PGs of all time in Jason Kidd played in the 2010-2020 era, raising its level of PG play simply because he played a portion of it, when in fact he is clearly not remotely close to playing at a level of a top 5 ever PG.



Maybe you should have read what was in question in the first place, and that is the legitimacy of the claim that the only reason Barkley/Malone didnt win titles was because of MJ's run of titles.

I don't think Magic Johnson playing in the 90-91 season had much effect on that, considering neither Barkley nor Malone's teams were legit contenders at that time.

Dirk and KG both have had to deal with some DAMN good players in the league, facing guys like Lebron, Wade, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, and other damn good players. Whether the 2000s or 90s era is better is not what I'm trying to debate, although I feel the 2000's have a stronger era, top to bottom. But what I am trying to debate is the ignorant statement that the 90s is infinitely better simply because of MJ, and that means that Barkley/Malone had to face tougher obstacles than Dirk/KG. Bullshit.

[stretch]

Why do you say this after seeing a list with Hakeem on it?

Robinson has a legit claim as a possible top 25 player ever, IMO.

[stretch]

lol wade and kobe top 10 all time. kobe is debatable brah, and putting 2003-2009 lebron in the top 10 all time is more of a stretch than putting 96-99 shaq in the top 10

:sleep

debate is over at this point.

i know there are a lot of kobe haters out here, but the man deserves some respect. dude is a damn good ball player, and should easily be viewed as top 5 of all time, and probably would if it wasnt for MJ. but because everyone is so quick to compare him to MJ, suddenly hes not a top 10 player of all time? but somehow, Magic Johnson is, despite playing with (and for some of his career, behind) Kareem, who is the 2nd greatest player ever?

[stretch]

and im not sure where you came up with the years 2003-2009 for Lebron, considering we are in 2011.

[Axe Murderer]

stretch i have a question for you

[DMC]

:sleep

debate is over at this point.

i know there are a lot of kobe haters out here, but the man deserves some respect. dude is a damn good ball player, and should easily be viewed as top 5 of all time, and probably would if it wasnt for MJ. but because everyone is so quick to compare him to MJ, suddenly hes not a top 10 player of all time? but somehow, Magic Johnson is, despite playing with (and for some of his career, behind) Kareem, who is the 2nd greatest player ever?

Does not compute. You are saying, if not for the other top 5 players, Kobe would be a top 5 player?

Ok. ?

Kobe isn't a top 5 player because of Kobe. Not because of MJ. MJ doesn't call him and say "Kobe, hog the ball and chuck it at the rim from half court when other guys are wide open when you are down 2 at the end of the game".

[Pelicans78]

The PFs in the 90s were Barkley, Malone, Webber, Kemp, Larry Johnson, Rodman, Horace Grant, Derrick Coleman, Gugs, Laettner, Anthony Mason, Dale Davis, Antonio Davis, Elden Campbell, young KG, young Joe Smith, young Brian Grant, young Rasheed Wallace, Kevin Willis just from recollection. A number of these guys made All-stars at least once.

In the Dirk and Duncan era was:

Dirk, Duncan, Webber, Garnett, Joe Smith, Rasheed Wallace, Jermaine O'Neal, Boozer, Gasol, Amare, Zack Randolph, David West, Josh Smith, Kenyon Martin, Rashard Lewis, Scola, Al Jefferson.

[Amaso]

I'd like to see the 96 Bulls play the 2011 Heat because I am interested to see Wade and Jordan guard each other while LeBron and Pippen guard each other.

Wade wouldn't have a chance at guarding MJ. Wade isn't the best 1 on 1 defender and MJ has 4 inches on Wade.

Pippen would be the best defender Lebron has ever had to go against.

[Amaso]

Dirk has a strong argument for #2 or #3. Barkley was an abnormally dominant PF that was the same height as an SG. He had to contend with the Rockets and Bulls which would 4-0 any team in the league right now, so him not ringing in his prime is understandable.


lol

The Bulls played TONS of long series during their championship run, and even lost one in the 90s with MJ... in the weakest top-tier level of basketball in the modern basketball era. What makes you think they could SWEEP any team, let alone the best teams.

[efrain jimenez]

dirk is a shooting guard.

[dirk4mvp]

Robinson has a legit claim as a possible top 25 player ever, IMO.

Neat. Hakeem has a legit claim as somewhere in the top 8 players ever, TBH.

["Brett Favre"]

Robinson has a legit claim as a possible top 25 player ever, IMO.

Son, you're being stupid. What you're doing right now is throwing the ball straight into triple coverage with no recievers around. You wanna FORCE it into quadruple coverage, makes the completion more awesome.

[Monostradamus]

every time i see this thread I laugh my ass off. Best misleading thread title in a while.

[BevoMav]

tim duncan is a center.

+ 1

[stretch]

Does not compute. You are saying, if not for the other top 5 players, Kobe would be a top 5 player?

Ok. ?

Kobe isn't a top 5 player because of Kobe. Not because of MJ. MJ doesn't call him and say "Kobe, hog the ball and chuck it at the rim from half court when other guys are wide open when you are down 2 at the end of the game".

You didnt bother to read the next portion of my post, but it doesnt matter, because you are a complete fucking dumbass.

Dude has won 5 rings, obviously hes doing something right. Sure, hes a bit overrated as a clutch player, but anyone who says they arent scared anytime Kobe launches a shot in the clutch is a fucking liar.

[stretch]

The PFs in the 90s were Barkley, Malone, Webber, Kemp, Larry Johnson, Rodman, Horace Grant, Derrick Coleman, Gugs, Laettner, Anthony Mason, Dale Davis, Antonio Davis, Elden Campbell, young KG, young Joe Smith, young Brian Grant, young Rasheed Wallace, Kevin Willis just from recollection. A number of these guys made All-stars at least once.

In the Dirk and Duncan era was:

Dirk, Duncan, Webber, Garnett, Joe Smith, Rasheed Wallace, Jermaine O'Neal, Boozer, Gasol, Amare, Zack Randolph, David West, Josh Smith, Kenyon Martin, Rashard Lewis, Scola, Al Jefferson.

LMAO, Lattener, Dale Davis, Anthony Mason, Antonio Davis, Brian grant, Joe Smith? What kind of shit list is this? You act as if these guys are fucking gamechangers or something. Making one all-star game doesnt mean shit. Especially considering your second list is leaving plenty of players out who made one all-star game. Quit pulling stupid shit out of your ass.

[stretch]

Wade wouldn't have a chance at guarding MJ. Wade isn't the best 1 on 1 defender and MJ has 4 inches on Wade.

MJ was 6'8 or taller?

[stretch]

Neat. Hakeem has a legit claim as somewhere in the top 8 players ever, TBH.

Neat. This does absolutely nothing to support the ridiculous claim that Dirk/KG played no competition, while Malone/Barkley playing MJ means they played absolutely nothing but nonstop, unbeatable competition, even if the only time they would face him was in the finals, not the series leading up to the finals.

[dirk4mvp]

That had more do to with your "MJ is the only guy who's close to being a top 10 player of all time in the 90s" comment, which clearly isn't the case.

[stretch]

That had more do to with your "MJ is the only guy who's close to being a top 10 player of all time in the 90s" comment, which clearly isn't the case.

I actually never said that. In fact, I stated Hakeem as being one from the get go who could be considered. Some people think he is, others think he has no business being in that list.

My apologies for offending you and your boner for Hakeem.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

LMAO, Lattener, Dale Davis, Anthony Mason, Antonio Davis, Brian grant, Joe Smith? What kind of shit list is this? You act as if these guys are fucking gamechangers or something. Making one all-star game doesnt mean shit. Especially considering your second list is leaving plenty of players out who made one all-star game. Quit pulling stupid shit out of your ass.
I think his point was that Barkley and Malone has much less talent to compete with than Dirk and KG.

[Agloco]

While I do agree Dirk is #2 behind Timmy as best PF ever, I think the OPs summary of why had some holes in his points as well. But to say that Dirk and KG never had to go though the competition that Barkley/Malone went through in the 90s is horseshit.

Listing other players from any era is superfluous. The only one that matters is the one I used as a metric and that's the GOAT. If Dirk or KG faced the GOAT in the finals today, they'd be ringless just like Barkley and Malone. Where on the list do you put them without their rings?


Take away the players I listed early, and every title this decade is won by Dirk/KG most likely. So you see how ridiculous of an argument that is?

Yes, I see how ridiculous it is since that would make either KG or Dirk the best player of this era, a condition not met by Malone or Barkley when we discuss their runs. You'd have to throw in Kobe, Shaq or Duncan to parallel the point I made, and even then it doesn't work since none of them is actually the GOAT.

[stretch]

I think his point was that Barkley and Malone has much less talent to compete with than Dirk and KG.

I hope that was the case.

[stretch]

Listing other players from any era is superfluous. The only one that matters is the one I used as a metric and that's the GOAT. If Dirk or KG faced the GOAT in the finals today, they'd be ringless just like Barkley and Malone. Where on the list do you put them without their rings?



Yes, I see how ridiculous it is since that would make either KG or Dirk the best player of this era, a condition not met by Malone or Barkley when we discuss their runs. You'd have to throw in Kobe, Shaq or Duncan to parallel the point I made, and even then it doesn't work since none of them is actually the GOAT.

:sleep coulda woulda shoulda blah blah blah bullshit

Point is, all that speculation means nothing. What matters is what you actually did. Dirk has led his team to a championship. KG changed the makeup of a team to help them to a championship. Malone and Barkley did neither. Did they get close? Most certainly, and both of them are notable for having had issues showing up when their team needed them most. Many people feel that had they played with a pair, they would have had a legit chance to take away a title or two from MJ and the Bulls. They had their shots, and didn't make the best of it.

[Pelicans78]

Truth be told, Barkley and Malone had a chance to beat the Rockets, especially Phoenix. They weren't that far off and the 1995 Suns team could have easily won that series. They had chances to win a championship and didn't get it done. I still might take a Barkley/Malone in their prime over KG because they could dominant games with their scoring and score against tough defenses while KG was similar to Lebron where he's versatile, did everything well, especially defensively, but not have the type of offensive game to dominate late. That's what separated Dirk from KG and why KG needed Pierce to win that series while KG was the overall anchor.

[DAF86]

lol Mavsfans resorting to the championship argument now that their team has ringed. Let's say Terry, Barea, Stevenson and co. wouldn't have stepped up at the precise moment, would have that made Dirk a lesser player?

[Agloco]

:sleep coulda woulda shoulda blah blah blah bullshit

Point is, all that speculation means nothing.

Says the man who clearly has all of his horses in this speculative thread. I'll take this as an admission that you have no valid rebuttal to my argument.



Dirk has led his team to a championship. KG changed the makeup of a team to help them to a championship. Malone and Barkley did neither.

So Dirk > Barkley or Malone on that basis alone? You can make a strong argument against Barkley, but Malone? lol.

Where is Garnett in this wonderful world of yours?



Most certainly, and both of them are notable for having had issues showing up when their team needed them most. Many people feel that had they played with a pair, they would have had a legit chance to take away a title or two from MJ and the Bulls. They had their shots, and didn't make the best of it.

I see no evidence that Barkley or Malone had significantly sub-par series against the Bulls. Was the scoring off a bit? Sure, but that doesn't make them chokers a la Dirk. Neither one of them have that on their resumes.

It's gonna take more than one champagne shower to wash all the shit that Dirks accumulated off. If he wins another before it's over, I'll gladly revisit this.

[stretch]

lol Mavsfans resorting to the championship argument now that their team has ringed. Let's say Terry, Barea, Stevenson and co. wouldn't have stepped up at the precise moment, would have that made Dirk a lesser player?

Don't be stupid. The same could be said for various Spurs players like S-Jax, Bowen, and others. But we all know the truth is, Ginobili and Duncan were great about stepping up big for their team, and helping to make things easier for their teammates, much like Dirk did for the Mavs, in particular the players you mentioned.

It's not so much the "won a championship" argument, as opposed to the manner in which Dirk did so. Dirk stepped up and took advantage of an opportunity to win a championship, while Barkley and Malone both had their shots and their nuts shriveled. Dirk had some truly amazing and memorable performances in the playoffs, the Finals in particular, leading a furious comeback when down 15 with less than 7 minutes to go, hitting two game winners including one when he was sick and clearly not at his best all game, and completely owned the 4th quarters by constantly scoring double digits even on off nights. He had one of the 5 greatest 4th quarter scoring averages in Finals history (I wanna say 2nd or 3rd highest) which is pretty amazing considering all the great players/scorers in NBA history.

[stretch]

So Dirk > Barkley or Malone on that basis alone? You can make a strong argument against Barkley, but Malone? lol.

What exactly did Malone do that was so amazing? Forget the importance of protecting the ball in clutch situations to give away a stupid steal to the best player in NBA history?

IMO, Stockton was the true leader of those Jazz teams, not Malone.


Where is Garnett in this wonderful world of yours?

IMO, my list goes as such:

1. Duncan
2. Dirk
3. Barkley
4/5. Malone/KG

I have Malone and KG lower because I think both of them are questionable performers down the stretch. I don't think they could take over a game in the clutch and put a team on their back the way Duncan, Dirk, or Chuck all could.


I see no evidence that Barkley or Malone had significantly sub-par series against the Bulls. Was the scoring off a bit? Sure, but that doesn't make them chokers a la Dirk. Neither one of them have that on their resumes.

Yes, Dirk is such a massive choker that he completely dominated the shit out of the two best players in the NBA, singlehandedly in 4th quarters and crunchtime. :rolleyes

Dude had one truly bad playoff run (Golden State series) in his career. His run in 2005 wasnt his best in terms of scoring, but he did do a very good job of stepping up in other ways such as rebounding, and drawing defensive attention to make things easier for teammates like Terry and Howard. But pretty much every great player has had a bad playoff run or two. Even your beloved Timmy has had a subpar playoff run. Truth is, like Duncan and all other great players, Dirk has had far more good runs than bad runs.


It's gonna take more than one champagne shower to wash all the shit that Dirks accumulated off. If he wins another before it's over, I'll gladly revisit this.

Now you just look like you're crying like a bitch. You look like the stupidass Kobe haters now, where basically unless he wins 10 rings, he blows ass. :rolleyes Give credit where credit is due.

[DAF86]

Don't be stupid. The same could be said for various Spurs players like S-Jax, Bowen, and others. But we all know the truth is, Ginobili and Duncan were great about stepping up big for their team, and helping to make things easier for their teammates, much like Dirk did for the Mavs, in particular the players you mentioned.

It's not so much the "won a championship" argument, as opposed to the manner in which Dirk did so. Dirk stepped up and took advantage of an opportunity to win a championship, while Barkley and Malone both had their shots and their nuts shriveled. Dirk had some truly amazing and memorable performances in the playoffs, the Finals in particular, leading a furious comeback when down 15 with less than 7 minutes to go, hitting two game winners including one when he was sick and clearly not at his best all game, and completely owned the 4th quarters by constantly scoring double digits even on off nights. He had one of the 5 greatest 4th quarter scoring averages in Finals history (I wanna say 2nd or 3rd highest) which is pretty amazing considering all the great players/scorers in NBA history.

Dirk was a monster all season long and during the playoffs, but in the finals he shot 41%. He would have gotten murdered if the Mavs wouldn't have won it. IMO Dirk didn't change as a player because of winning this championship.

[ZB 512]

nevermind

[stretch]

Dirk was a monster all season long and during the playoffs, but in the finals he shot 41%. He would have gotten murdered if the Mavs wouldn't have won it. IMO Dirk didn't change as a player because of winning this championship.

I dont think he changed as an individual player by any means, but his place in historical greatness most definitely did.

He may have not had his best overall shooting series in the finals, but when it counted most, he was always hitting his shots. His ridiculous "choker" label was most definitely debunked by his Finals performance.

[Sean Cagney]

nope, Kareem/Chamberlain/Dream/Shaq all be better centers then Tim imo and the massive chink fans will ram SHITE in there as well, TD ain't a top 5 neither as a PF nor C imho

Ur a dumbass........... Thats all.

[Agloco]

Now you just look like you're crying like a bitch. You look like the stupidass Kobe haters now, where basically unless he wins 10 rings, he blows ass. :rolleyes Give credit where credit is due.

:cry

I'm giving Dirk all the credit he deserves. 3rd all time.

[stretch]

whoever thinks this should check into the viability of suicide immediately.

I most definitely agree. Hakeem IMO is tied with Shaq for 2nd/3rd best center ever, behind only Kareem.

[stretch]

:cry

I'm giving Dirk all the credit he deserves. 3rd all time.

Behind Barkley or Malone?

Barkley - understandable.

Malone - go fuck yourself for being a dumbass.

[stretch]

Talent level between 90's and 2000's is pretty even imho, all great players in the modern era have gone up against other great players, looking at the competition and trying to make comparisons isn't exactly a reliable way to determine your top PF list. how would you know which players are better whenever you've only seen them go up against eachother in totally opposite stages of their careers? no way to know if the average talent level of the league back then is higher or lower than today because you can't bring back the 95 versions of every team and create a 59 league team seeing who wins.

I wont argue with this at all. I personally think the overall talent in the 2000's is higher, but its not really that big of a deal, nor is it easy to prove, and isn't really relevant to my issue in this thread.

My issue was with the moron basically saying that having to play against Jordan means Malone/Barkley had to face nothing but tough opposition, while Dirk and KG didnt have any opposition at all because they didnt face Jordan. Ignorant and dumb.

[Agloco]

What exactly did Malone do that was so amazing? Forget the importance of protecting the ball in clutch situations to give away a stupid steal to the best player in NBA history?

IMO, Stockton was the true leader of those Jazz teams, not Malone.

Blue - http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/malonka01.html

Red - The GOAT stole the ball.......these things happen when you play the GOAT.

Thanks for making my point though. Dirk has faced that sort of opponent/adversity when exactly? Baron Davis? Captain Jack? LeBron? D-Whistle? :lol

Of course you think Stockton was the leader of those Jazz teams, it helps your argument. :rolleyes

[Agloco]

Behind Barkley or Malone?

Barkley - understandable.

Malone - go fuck yourself for being a dumbass.

Seriously?

Come to think of it, I'd put him behind both. Make that 4th all time.

[stretch]

Red - The GOAT stole the ball.......these things happen when you play the GOAT.

Sure MJ stole it, but the point is, he shouldn't have been able to. Malone was a dumbass for exposing the ball like he did, and not waiting for the cutter to finish making his cut across the baseline, taking MJ with him. He started his dribble way too soon, and MJ made him pay for such a dumbass choice.


Thanks for making my point though. Dirk has faced that sort of opponent/adversity when exactly? Baron Davis? Captain Jack? LeBron? D-Whistle? :lol

I guess your lovely Tim Duncan doesnt rank as a great player in your own book. You truly are a moron.


Seriously?

Come to think of it, I'd put him behind both. Make that 4th all time.

Good for you. Unfortunately, your opinion is shit, so it means nothing. Sorry.

[stretch]

There's a better case for putting dirk above big shitty than there is for putting dirk 4th.

Lmfao fagloco

its hilarious that fagloco is so stupid that he just bascially said Tim Duncan and Kobe are not great players, just to suit his argument. what a fucking idiot.

[jjktkk]

Good arguement. Barkley, Dirk, and Malone are all obviously great pfs. The only thing that seperates the 3, is Dirk winning a ring, which imo, gives Dirk the edge over Barkley and Malone.

[Agloco]

There's a better case for putting dirk above big shitty than there is for putting dirk 4th.

Lmfao fagloco

:cry

I'm waiting for one of your "serious" threads again. Haven't had a good dose of comedy in a while.

[Agloco]

its hilarious that fagloco is so stupid that he just bascially said Tim Duncan and Kobe are not great players, just to suit his argument. what a fucking idiot.

Quote?

[Agloco]

I guess your lovely Tim Duncan doesnt rank as a great player in your own book. You truly are a moron.

He's not the GOAT. Good thing you missed the boat here........again. :lol




Good for you. Unfortunately, your opinion is shit, so it means nothing. Sorry.

It means more than you could possibly know. :toast

Stay blissfully ignorant.

[stretch]

Quote?


Thanks for making my point though. Dirk has faced that sort of opponent/adversity when exactly? Baron Davis? Captain Jack? LeBron? D-Whistle? :lol

Nowhere is Kobe or Timmy listed, and obviously this post was made with the intent to dismiss the competition that Dirk faced.

[Agloco]

Nowhere is Kobe or Timmy listed, and obviously this post was made with the intent to dismiss the competition that Dirk faced.

Because that was obviously an exhaustive list. :rolleyes

[Agloco]

:lmao thats telling me

Lmao dirk #4

lmao indeed

[stretch]

:cry :cry :cry

[DPG21920]

There is no argument to put Dirk ahead of Duncan, so I disagree with that rebuttal.

[Agloco]

:lobt2: = #2

:lol

[stretch]

:lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2: = #1

:lol

[Agloco]

i guess he can have dirk at #4 since i don't even have big shitty in my top 10 all time list

Fair enough.

[Agloco]

:lol

Indeed :lol

In any mock "All time NBA" draft, you're still taking Malone or Barkley over Dirk.

Aren't you?

[stretch]

Indeed :lol

In any mock "All time NBA" draft, you're still taking Malone or Barkley over Dirk.

Aren't you?

No ma'am.

[Axe Murderer]

let me know when KG/Barkley score 48 points on 12/15 FGs and made all 24 free throws.

/thread

(ooooooo burrrrn! did you guys see what i did there??? i put the word "/thread" at the end of my post to make the casual observer think that I'm winning the argument all the while acting like i'm much higher than everyone else. Pretty sick right?)

[JoeTait75]

There is no argument to put Dirk ahead of Duncan

Other than Duncan being a center and not a power forward.

[DPG21920]

Duncan wasn't always playing center and whether it's a power forward argument or all time argument, there is no argument for Dirk over Tim in either of those.

[Ghazi]

Duncan wasn't always playing center and whether it's a power forward argument or all time argument, there is no argument for Dirk over Tim in either of those.

WRONG BOUT DEM MAVS :smokin :smokin :smokin :smokin

[DPG21920]

^ Wrong about det Tyson :)