Indiana offers Hibbert and 15th pick to Wolves for 2nd pick

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

With an eye on drafting Arizona’s Derrick Williams, the Indiana Pacers have discussed a package including center Roy Hibbert(notes) and the 15th pick for the Minnesota Timberwolves’ second overall pick, league sources said. Nevertheless, the overture hasn’t gained traction in Minnesota. …
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=Au8F1Qszi6PZxxVlYpgEASW8vLYF?slug=aw-wojnarowski_josh_smith_hawks_nba_draft_062011

Do they seriously have to think this over?

[DPG21920]

I hate the draft because it's really hard to scout and to me pretty much everyone in college sucks. I haven't watched Williams play a lot, but are people sold on him being a dominate player at this level? What is his ceiling?

Hibbert, while not great, is a very good defensive center with a solid offensive game. While the 15th pick isn't great, you can get a solid, but likely not spectacular piece.

[Bill_Brasky]

I wouldn't do it. I know the Wolves wanna stop building via draft and get someone who can help them now, but Hibbert isn't that guy. Look for something better if you're Minny, IMO.

[Nathan89]

I would make this deal if I was Minn.

[DPG21920]

Hibbert is solid, but not spectacular. I don't think you can do this trade if you are Minny.

[JMarkJohns]

I hate the draft because it's really hard to scout and to me pretty much everyone in college sucks. I haven't watched Williams play a lot, but are people sold on him being a dominate player at this level? What is his ceiling?

Hibbert, while not great, is a very good defensive center with a solid offensive game. While the 15th pick isn't great, you can get a solid, but likely not spectacular piece.

I am employed by several Arizona fansites and haven't missed a game in years. I feel I am more qualified than even the talking heads to discuss Williams.

My opinion is that for this draft, he's a top-3 pick. For an average draft, top-10. For a good draft, late lottery.

Williams' strengths are work ethic, coachability, offensive versatility, strength (even for NBA) and explosion (even for NBA). His weaknesses are relaxed defense most of the time, solid, but not dominant rebounding (even at the college level), perimeter quickness, especially off the dribble and on defense, and a loose handle. Now, There's nothing I've seen that tells me he can't be a better rebounder with the right coach screaming at him. Also, I think as he is developed on the wing that his handle will tighten. I'm not sure he'll ever be a great defender, even help-defender, despite having a great standing reach and 30+ vertical. Must be a timing thing, which may factor in to rebounding concerns as well.

Why Williams is valuable is largely based on his offense. He was one of the most efficient players in all of college basketball for the last two years. Before his hand injury late last season, he was averaging 2.3+ points per shot, was shooting 70% in the lane, 75% from FT, 45% on jumpers and 60% from three on roughly 2 attempts per game. His numbers went down a bit with the injury, but he was very consistent. While concerns of his game translating stem from his free throw rate (30% of his points were made FTs), I believe he will retain a high rate of FTs at the NBA level, despite no longer holding a height and athleticism advantage. Williams has unbelievable balance, is able to absorb contact and can contort to get the shot off from just about anywhere downlow. He's very explosive, is pretty strong and has a large wingspan. While his ability to draw the And-1 might decrease, I think his smarts and incredible physical ability allow him to score in the paint much of the time. At the same rate? No... but enough. Additionally, his jumper already translates well to the NBA mid-range due to his amazing college 3FG%. Furthermore, he's been practicing his NBA shot and is reportedly able to hit between 70-80% of his NBA threes in 100-shot simulations.

Where people split in opinion is potential. Williams, like myself, sees him developing some SF skills, if not outright developing into a SF. He has the athleticism, has the instincts. What he doesn't have is skills beyond shooting. However, one reason I wouldn't bet against him is his drive and coachability. Two years ago he was a 3-star prospect barely regarded as much entering college. He didn't have a lot of supporters. He's proven himself capable of adapting to multiple roles on offense, and has improved in efficiency in most every area. No, he's not the ideal SF right now, but he has potential and there's nothing in his recent history that should dissuade someone from thinking he'll do everything to maximize it.

Now, does he make sense for the Pacers with Granger and George? Not sure.

Regardless of his potential, I believe he's worth the risk. He's not a diva, works his ass off, brings a lot of offensive skills, and has the dynamic athleticism and body to really be effective at either PF or SF. His mentality is attack, but mostly focused on offense, so he needs a shift in philosophy, but I think he's willing.

Would I trade Hibbert and #15 for him? I'm biased. Yes. I would then trade Granger to Utah for Favors/filler and build around a George/Williams/Favors frontcourt.

Would I offer a Chris Webber-like haul for him? No. Maybe if he was 2 inches taller, or more proven as a SF scorer or PF defender (like a Love or Griffin who are both a bit undersized, but better rebounders).

I've long compared Williams to Al Harrington in skillset, but with a smarter overall game and better athleticism. Look back at Harrington's best years, is that worth Hibbert and a crappy 15th? I'd say yes, but maybe not within the Pacers' current roster.

[Nathan89]

Hibbert is solid, but not spectacular. I don't think you can do this trade if you are Minny.

On second thought a Rubio is going to need some athleticism to pass the ball to. Perhaps Derrick Williams can provide that.

I only watched Derrick in the tourney and he did great. My concern is the guy earned most of his draft stock in those few games.

[DPG21920]

Thanks for the breakdown. I was thinking that Hibbert + 15 wouldn't be enough anyways before knowing something about him, and it's likely even more true after reading that.

There is no doubt that Indy would do that; his skill set seems to fit with them. But I can't see Minny biting on that offer.

[JMarkJohns]

On second thought a Rubio is going to need some athleticism to pass the ball to. Perhaps Derrick Williams can provide that.

I only watched Derrick in the tourney and he did great. My concern is the guy earned most of his draft stock in those few games.

No he didn't. He was mocked as high as #1 all the way back to the first of the year. That solidified the high opinions of him, but his 27-8 game vs. Morris twins in November is what elevated his status, and his consistency on offense, highlight-reel finishing skills, and 65% 3FG kept him in the top-5 talks for the entire season. As other prospects like Perry Jones and Harrison Barnes slacked, his stock rose.

[dirk4mvp]

I hate the draft because it's really hard to scout and to me pretty much everyone in college sucks. I haven't watched Williams play a lot, but are people sold on him being a dominate player at this level? What is his ceiling?

Hibbert, while not great, is a very good defensive center with a solid offensive game. While the 15th pick isn't great, you can get a solid, but likely not spectacular piece.


Remember when you tried dissing college ball by saying Hansbrough was the college GOAT?

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

:lol calling Hansbrough the college GOAT

[Nathan89]

No he didn't. He was mocked as high as #1 all the way back to the first of the year. That solidified the high opinions of him, but his 27-8 game vs. Morris twins in November is what elevated his status, and his consistency on offense, highlight-reel finishing skills, and 65% 3FG kept him in the top-5 talks for the entire season. As other prospects like Perry Jones and Harrison Barnes slacked, his stock rose.

Okay, I only watch the college tourney. From what I heard I thought his draft stock had improved. Anyways like I said I was impressed by his play in the tourney.

I think Rubio will benefit from a guy like him with athleticism. If what you said about him being a late lottery pick in a good draft is true, I would make the trade for Hibbert.

[DPG21920]

Remember when you tried dissing college ball by saying Hansbrough was the college GOAT?

I don't like College ball outside of the tourney. I diss college ball all the time and I was probably saying that Hans' numbers made him the college GOAT which is proved my point about it sucking.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

D-Will was a top 10 pick before the tourney started, the tourney (or the 1st half of the Duke game in particular), is what made him a top 3 pick.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Hans' numbers made him the college GOAT which is proved my point about it sucking.
But his numbers don't make him the college GOAT

[DPG21920]

Did his numbers not rank up all time?

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

There's an obvious GOAT to college basketball, numbers wise, and overall achievement wise. Hansbrough won't be remembered as anything extremely special.

[JMarkJohns]

Thanks for the breakdown. I was thinking that Hibbert + 15 wouldn't be enough anyways before knowing something about him, and it's likely even more true after reading that.

There is no doubt that Indy would do that; his skill set seems to fit with them. But I can't see Minny biting on that offer.

I can see this. Pacers might need to throw in George instead of #15. George would be a top-5 pick this year. Then again, I think pretty highly of George's potential at SF, so I don't know if I make that trade if I'm Indy.

Maybe just offer Granger/#15 to Minny for #2/Johnson/Randolph/Webster.

I think that's fair, that it makes sense roster-wise. Although, I do know Minny is actively seeking a defensive C in any trade for the pick.

[DPG21920]

There's an obvious GOAT to college basketball, numbers wise, and overall achievement wise. Hansbrough won't be remembered as anything extremely special.

That was my argument. That in college, a guy like Tyler can put up GOAT-like numbers and not be memorable. I wasn't arguing in favor of him.

[JMarkJohns]

D-Will was a top 10 pick before the tourney started, the tourney (or the 1st half of the Duke game in particular), is what made him a top 3 pick.

That's not true. Various draft sites had him consistently in the top-3/5 since New Years, with a few swapping him back and forth at #1 and #2 from late January onward.

Williams only had one great game in four in March. He was alright vs. Memphis, but stole the show with the late block. He was pretty poor vs. Texas until late in the 2nd and the game-winning And-1. The Duke game maybe solidified the already thought opinions, but the opinions were already being discussed for months prior.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

That was my argument. That in college, a guy like Tyler can put up GOAT-like numbers and not be memorable.
:lmao no it wasn't. You called Hansbrough the GOAT of college basketball when his numbers aren't GOAT-like at all.

[DPG21920]

What was the point of my argument, guy? It wasn't to say Tyler was awesome. Wasn't he the ACC's all time leading scorer?

[JMarkJohns]

That was my argument. That in college, a guy like Tyler can put up GOAT-like numbers and not be memorable. I wasn't arguing in favor of him.

You should use Christian Laettner over Psycho-T... Laettner was a top-5 college player, even earning an original Dream Team roster spot and, save for a few seasons early, was a fart in the wind in the NBA.

The landscape of college basketball likely doesn't move a meter without Hansbrough, but is altered radically without Laettner.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

This is true, but NBA>>>>>>>>>>>College. Too many scrubs. LMAO Tyler Hansboro greatest player of all time in college. /argument.



That was my argument. That in college, a guy like Tyler can put up GOAT-like numbers and not be memorable.

http://i56.tinypic.com/1slj61.gif

[DPG21920]

:lol So me using hyperbole calling Tyler the GOAT to knock college basketball is what you're sticking to?

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

What was the point of my argument, guy? It wasn't to say Tyler was awesome. Wasn't he the ACC's all time leading scorer?
All-time leading scorer stats don't mean shit when they're largely dictated by a player staying all 4 years. If Cap stayed at UCLA his senior year, he'd have set untouchable all time records, but he's still the best college player of all time with what he did in 3 years.

[Agloco]

Does Minny need another big?

[DPG21920]

Saying "LMAO Tyler Hansboro = GOAT" is something pretty obvious. Even as someone who doesn't watch college ball often, there is no way I would have really tried to argue Hans as the GOAT without it being factitious.

It's like when someone says "LMAO Big Shitty". Does that really mean they think Tim Duncan is a scrub?

[Spurs da champs]

Hibbert is solid, but not spectacular. I don't think you can do this trade if you are Minny.

Well he's defiantly an upgrade over Darko, and with that later pick it allows them to add depth to their front court. It's also a safe pick compared to Kanter/Williams.

[DPG21920]

All-time leading scorer stats don't mean shit when they're largely dictated by a player staying all 4 years. If Cap stayed at UCLA his senior year, he'd have set untouchable all time records, but he's still the best college player of all time with what he did in 3 years.

Guy, you keeping arguing with me on something I don't give a shit about and was not the point of my argument. You keep clinging to the fact I said "LMAO Tyler = GOAT" like it was dead on serious and I was arguing about how Tyler was so amazing in college.

I used him as an extreme example as to why I don't like CBB.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I still don't get how sarcastically calling hansbrough the GOAT means your original argument was that he can put up goat-like numbers and not be considered an all time great.

[Mal]

Some smallball is gonna be playing in Indianapolis.

I thought they were very high on Hibbert

[DPG21920]

I don't like College ball outside of the tourney. I diss college ball all the time and I was probably saying that Hans' numbers made him the college GOAT which is proved my point about it sucking.

Goal posts firmly planted.

[Mal]

Does Minny need another big?

They need reliable starting C. Which neither Darko and Nikola is

[DPG21920]

I still don't get how sarcastically calling hansbrough the GOAT means your original argument was that he can put up goat-like numbers and not be considered an all time great.

WTF? Look at the quote you dug up. I was arguing as to why the NBA is better than college. I used an extreme example (that obviously wasn't based in 100% fact or my true belief) saying "In College, Tyler = GOAT, LMAO /argument, college sucks).

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Goal posts firmly planted.
Then moved

That was my argument. That in college, a guy like Tyler can put up GOAT-like numbers and not be memorable. I wasn't arguing in favor of him.

[DPG21920]

He was the guy at the time of the argument getting all the hype in college.

[ohmwrecker]

Not to defend DPG, but I don't really see what is so difficult to understand about saying a player like TH putting up big numbers in college being an indictment of the validity or entertainment value of college ball . . . conceptually speaking.
I don't necessarily agree, but I understand the implication.

[DPG21920]

Then moved

No. That was me trying to remember what I said in an obscure argument. Even in that quote, I still alluded to how I was using Tyler "putting up all time GOAT" numbers (which again was factitious) as to why college sucks.

I know he put up good numbers and broke some records, but do you honestly believe I think he is the GOAT? Really?

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

That quote is from last March....

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

No. That was me trying to remember what I said in an obscure argument. Even in that quote, I still alluded to how I was using Tyler "putting up all time GOAT" numbers (which again was factitious) as to why college sucks.

I know he put up good numbers and broke some records, but do you honestly believe I think he is the GOAT? Really?
Your argument changed. It went from "The competition is so bad Tyler Hansbrough can put up GOAT-like numbers" to "Tyler Hansbrough can put up GOAT-like numbers and not be considered an all time great". One has nothing to do with the other.

[DPG21920]

Ok? I don't remember what was said exactly obviously or when it was said. All I know (that has been consistent) is that I used "LMAO Hans = GOAT = College sucks" as my argument that the NBA is better.

You keep doing the SpursTalk semantics thing just to argue when you know damn well what I meant at the time and now. You are turning what I said (and don't remember exactly) into an argument about Tyler being the actual GOAT when that has absolutely nothing to do with the true crux of my original statements.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

No, I know you weren't serious about him actually being the GOAT. I'm just wondering why you all the sudden had a post about how you think college sucks because someone can put up all time great numbers and not be considered an all time great.

I just don't like it when people change their arguments. If you forgot your argument and then tried to remember what it was accidentally stating a new one, then my bad.

[ohmwrecker]

It's like the Bill Russell argument.

[DPG21920]

Your argument changed. It went from "The competition is so bad Tyler Hansbrough can put up GOAT-like numbers" to "Tyler Hansbrough can put up GOAT-like numbers and not be considered an all time great". One has nothing to do with the other.

:lmao when did it change? You mean in this thread when it was brought up obscurely that I said something about Tyler in relation to why college sucks.

I never tried to argue him being a great. In this thread I was trying to remember what the hell yall were talking about and now you are trying to hold my feet to the fire on it :lol

[DPG21920]

I also never said college sucks BECAUSE someone can put up all time numbers and not be considered on of the goats. When I was trying to remember what yall were talking about, I said "I probably was referring to how Tyler was the GOAT (meaning at the time since he was just fresh off of being the main guy in college) and is NOT EVEN MEMORABLE".

That is no where near saying that he can put up goat numbers and not be considered a goat. It was an indictment of college and how good players aren't even memorable.