Compare Leonard to Bowen

[wildbill2u]

Hey I know we all remember Bowen as an 8 time All-NBA defensive player (5 1st team) and career .393 3Pt. shooter. It seems fatuous to compare Bruce to a rookie who has yet to start a game--but it's Summer so what the hell. Let's have some speculative fun and argument--without flaming each other if possible.

In my opinion the prerequisite for a Bowen/Leonarde comparison is that unmeasureable--the "defense-first" mind set.

Everything I've heard or seen so far makes me think the kid knows his special talent is relentless defense and he takes great pride in it. I saw one quote where he said he always wanted to guard the other teams best scorer and hold him below his average in scoring and rebounds. HELLO.

Phycially they are both 6'7" although Bruce was 185 and Leonard is over 230 with virtually zero body fat. Guy looks like he's wearing a turtle shell. Leonard has those freaky hands and wingspan better than Bynum. It looks to me in brief videos that he is more athlectic than Bruce as well and that may mean something when he starts puting up stat numbers.

Speaking of stats below are Bruce's career stats. Looking at them may give us an idea of his playing strengths and weaknesses and then we can speculate on where Leonard's strength and weaknesses are.



file:///C:/Users/wildbill/AppData/Roaming/M8%20Software/Spartan_Data/Clips/OL39.jpg

I'm not gonna post any more of my conclusions or speculations until I get some feedback. Have fun.

[wildbill2u]

Dang, I can't see the graphic now that I posted. Dont know why. Maybe someone can go to http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bowenbr01.html and post it for us.

[Dex]

You can't post images that reside on your own local hard drive. You have to first upload them to the internet, such as using a site like http://tinypic.com/

http://i52.tinypic.com/iz6w77.png

[rascal]

Hey I know we all remember Bowen as an 8 time All-NBA defensive player (5 1st team) and career .393 3Pt. shooter. It seems fatuous to compare Bruce to a rookie who has yet to start a game--but it's Summer so what the hell. Let's have some speculative fun and argument--without flaming each other if possible.

In my opinion the prerequisite for a Bowen/Leonarde comparison is that unmeasureable--the "defense-first" mind set.

Everything I've heard or seen so far makes me think the kid knows his special talent is relentless defense and he takes great pride in it. I saw one quote where he said he always wanted to guard the other teams best scorer and hold him below his average in scoring and rebounds. HELLO.

Phycially they are both 6'7" although Bruce was 185 and Leonard is over 230 with virtually zero body fat. Guy looks like he's wearing a turtle shell. Leonard has those freaky hands and wingspan better than Bynum. It looks to me in brief videos that he is more athlectic than Bruce as well and that may mean something when he starts puting up stat numbers.

Speaking of stats below are Bruce's career stats. Looking at them may give us an idea of his playing strengths and weaknesses and then we can speculate on where Leonard's strength and weaknesses are.



file:///C:/Users/wildbill/AppData/Roaming/M8%20Software/Spartan_Data/Clips/OL39.jpg

I'm not gonna post any more of my conclusions or speculations until I get some feedback. Have fun.

Leonard is more athletic and better offensively, bowen is better defensively because he had no offensive game to worry about except one corner shot and concentrated all his efforts on defense.

[Texas_Ranger]

Can't compare till I see him play.

[wildbill2u]

You can't post images that reside on your own local hard drive. You have to first upload them to the internet, such as using a site like http://tinypic.com/

http://i52.tinypic.com/iz6w77.png

Thanks a lot. This will make it easier and more fun.

[Mel_13]

Leonard is 19.

Bowen was 29 and had been a pro for nearly a decade before he reinvented himself as a defensive specialist.

Comparing Leonard to Bowen will just lead to unrealistic expectations.

[wildbill2u]

Can't compare till I see him play.

You'r no fun. Speculate. Have an opinion. This isn't rocket science and there are no right or wrong answers.

Example: Looking at his rebounding effort in college (led all SF draftees in rebounding) Do you think he might use that wingspan, weight and willingness to mix it up to rebound better than Bowen's average of 2.8 per game?

[Trill Clinton]

I have low expectations for Leonard. I'm not expecting him to be the next Bowen, that's unfair to him and he doesn't need that pressure.

I just want to see maximum effort on defense and a willingness to learn.

[wildbill2u]

Leonard is 19.

Bowen was 29 and had been a pro for nearly a decade before he reinvented himself as a defensive specialist.

Comparing Leonard to Bowen will just lead to unrealistic expectations.

I'd say the records dispute your premise. He bounced around in minor leagues and short term deals on NBA rosters from 95-2000. During that time he sure wasn't an offensive player if you look at the stats.

He had to be a defensive specialist. And by his first full year of play in 2000-2001 he made the all defensive NBA team. I contend you don't suddenly develop that skillset our of a thin air reinvention.

The unrealistic expectation issue might be legitimate if stated that it isn't realistic to assume that Leonard will make the team and get some burn. I can respect that opinion--although I think he will get some playing time until he proves he can't play.

[TDMVPDPOY]

i expect his first season to have the same stats as bowens career avg 6ppg aint hard, when blair, hill, neal and anderson score those type of numbers for their first year...

[Hooks]

I think he'll be a Gerald Wallace type player when Leonard reaches his prime, or even better than Wallace. From all the articles I've read, he doesn't block a lot of shots (occasionally he does) but what he does best is challenge shots extremely well and stay in front of his man. He's got the body and work ethic to become a lock down defender in the NBA. I've heard that his lateral quickness is questionable and that'll hurt him a lot if he's trying to guard SG's, but it is fixable. Leonard is also extremely good at playing the passing lanes, part of it is due to those looong arms, but I've heard he's a bit too anxious sometimes and gambles a lot, leaving his man uncovered (just like Manu). Offensively he's actually a very good passer, he can score in the paint and post up, he's got a mid range shot as well. His offensive game reminds me a lot of Blair, the way Leonard likes to bang and throw his body around in the paint, he does a lot of the dirty work. Leonard gives it his all on the court, that's what everybody says about him, he's a high motor guy that just won't stop playing hard, dude is relentless.

He's got a lot of potential, and I think that potential will be brought out with all his hard work. This guy is a gym rat, he's always working out trying to get better, he wants to be the best. From what I understand the Spurs also have one of the best training facilities in the NBA, that was what RMJ said anyways, he wanted to sign with a team that had the equipment etc. to help him get better which was a major reason in him signing. That'll only help Leonard reach his potential. During the summer of his freshman season he was asked what he was trying to improve on and one of the things he said was his endurance, he said "Even though I wasn't really tired during the games last year I feel like I could improve on my endurance to help me play at my best all game long" or something like that I can't find the article... Anyways that just shows you the type of guy he is.

Leonard's already changed his shot mechanics during the summer (how many college players actually do that?) and has been working a lot on his offensive game like dribbling, shooting and extending his range. He knows his flaws and his limits, and he's always trying to correct those, his basketball IQ is very high.

[ShoogarBear]

As you pointed out, Leonard is much heavier. While his sprint speed is pretty good, a key is going to be his lateral quickness. Bowen's was highly underrated. If Leonard doesn't have enough of it, then he won't be able to stay with 2s and his ceiling will be just a better-defending version of Blair. Which might not be so bad.

[Fabbs]

Originally Posted by Texas_Ranger
Can't compare till I see him play.


You'r no fun. Speculate. Have an opinion. This isn't rocket science and there are no right or wrong answers.

Example: Looking at his rebounding effort in college (led all SF draftees in rebounding) Do you think he might use that wingspan, weight and willingness to mix it up to rebound better than Bowen's average of 2.8 per game?
:lol compare without seeing him play? :lmao

Okay well I'm from SD and have seen him play.
Lateral quickness compared to Bowens? Leonard is slow moving laterally. At present he would get killed by the faster SFs. The top SFs would absolutely destroy him.

His strengths are blocking out and positioning for rebounds. Very good at those. But not nearly as good as Grizzly Blair. But then who is?

[Russ]

Did someone say Leonard Cohen?

otJY2HvW3Bw

[kobyz]

don't compare him to the one and only Bruce, he's not the master of defense, but he could be a very good defender and excellent rebounder, i'll compare him to Shawn Marion!!

[Mel_13]

I'd say the records dispute your premise. He bounced around in minor leagues and short term deals on NBA rosters from 95-2000. During that time he sure wasn't an offensive player if you look at the stats.

He had to be a defensive specialist. And by his first full year of play in 2000-2001 he made the all defensive NBA team. I contend you don't suddenly develop that skillset our of a thin air reinvention.

The unrealistic expectation issue might be legitimate if stated that it isn't realistic to assume that Leonard will make the team and get some burn. I can respect that opinion--although I think he will get some playing time until he proves he can't play.

Bowen's NBA record before Miami only tells you that he couldn't get a steady NBA gig during those years. Without his European stats you have a very incomplete record. His basketball evolution has been told in various articles that have been the subject of ST threads through the years. Bowen was a featured offensive player in Europe, notably during his years in France. When he finally wound up in Miami, Riley told him he could stick in the NBA if devoted himself on the defensive side of the ball. Bowen took the advice and the rest is history.

As to Leonard, all the write-ups and his college stats point to a Gerald Wallace-type player. We're seeing comparisons to Bowen because he's going to play SF on the Spurs and he has some reputation as good defender. Otherwise, he doesn't seem similar to Bowen at all. He has great rebounding numbers, the one statistic that most reliably translates from college to the NBA. Bowen was never much of rebounder. Their offensive games seem completely dissimilar, with Bowen's offense coming almost exclusively from beyond the arc and Leonard getting a good portion of his offense close to, and above, the rim.

Finally, whether Leonard plays 30 mpg or sits all year on the bench, I stand by my position that comparisons to a franchise icon like Bowen set unrealistic expectations for a rookie player.

[objective]

In all the footage of Leonard available on youtube and through DraftExpress, I must admit there was an instance of Leonard covering a guy where I thought, "Damn, he really does look and move like Bruce there!". But it was only once and my mind was probably playing tricks on me.

SI's (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/magazine/specials/2000s/12/09/deitsch.broadcasting/index.html?eref=sihp) "Best National Radio Show Host (of the Decade)", Bob Kemp, on draft night called Leonard "Bruce Bowen Jr.", though I don't think he meant literally that he played like Bowen, only that he was a very good defender and would be one for the Spurs. He did call him the "Perfect Spur".

Kemp is someone whose knowledge of college and pro basketball is lightyears ahead of most other radio show media people, because his shows aren't idiotic "man-stuff" or lame comedy bits, but intense fact-based sports discussion. Doesn't mean he's always right, just that I value his opinion much more than most anyone else, including ESPN's experts.

In 2008 he was one of the few who could talk about George Hill with an informed viewpoint as he actually watched more than a single tourny game with IUPUI. He also was vocal about how good James Anderson was the entire NCAA season before the Spurs drafted him.

If Kemp likes a player, it goes a long way with me.

[ohmwrecker]

Leonard has hair and tattoos and doesn't wear bow ties.

[Solid D]

Connie Hawkins.

Hands of Hawkins for sure. If Leonard can score like Connie did, then the Spurs will end up with an All-Star player and another jersey in the rafters.

[Tyrone Jenkins]

Leonard is 230 lbs. I think he's a SF and PF defender - not a 2 guard defender. The boy shouldn't be asked to guard everyone...sooner or later, the Spurs are going to have to rely on ALL FIVE players on the court playing solid defense. They got that in Anderson, the new PG they drafted, Leonard, TD (to some degree) and possibly Splitter.

Bruce Bowen or not - let's put him up against good SFs and see what he can do 1st. After that, maybe he can assume the BB roll...

[objective]

Leonard did guard Jimmer in college.

Chasing around 6'2" guards in one game, defending power forwards the next . . . you gotta admit, that's a little Bowen-ish.

[GSH]

Leonard is 19.

Bowen was 29 and had been a pro for nearly a decade before he reinvented himself as a defensive specialist.

Comparing Leonard to Bowen will just lead to unrealistic expectations.

I don't need to read any further. This nailed it. Linton Johnson was going to be the next Bruce Bowen. Ime Udoka was going to be the next Bruce Bowen. Probably others - not worth dredging the mental archives. Bruce had paid a lot of dues before he got here. No matter how much talent this kid has, he'll need time.

[wildbill2u]

I never said he was LIKE Bruce Bowen and started the thread with a bow to Bowen's achievements.

But this guy will probably play at SF and I just wanted to compare his strengths and weaknesses at the position to Bowen's. Bowen is the most respected SF on the Spurs since Sean and Bowen wasn't LIKE Sean, but you could compare the strength and weaknesses of their games.

[pgardn]

No one has ever been able to move laterally like Bowen without bending his knees and staying tall, freakish ability. Personally I have never seen anything like it. Add to this that Bruce's hands were as quick as Manu's... No comparison.

[wildbill2u]

No one has ever been able to move laterally like Bowen without bending his knees and staying tall, freakish ability. Personally I have never seen anything like it. Add to this that Bruce's hands were as quick as Manu's... No comparison.

I always thought it was strange that Bruce's stats on steals was so low. He had about .8 per game. Manu is at 1.5.

I have a feeling that Leonard is going to continue to get a lot of steals with that wing span and huge hands. You can see that in his college videos. He'll be hell at cutting off the passing lanes and will get some tips and blocked passes from players he guards.

[pgardn]

I always thought it was strange that Bruce's stats on steals was so low. He had about .8 per game. Manu is at 1.5.

I have a feeling that Leonard is going to continue to get a lot of steals with that wing span and huge hands. You can see that in his college videos. He'll be hell at cutting off the passing lanes and will get some tips and blocked passes from players he guards.

Lots of steals requires gambling. Bowen did not do this. His hand D was to harrass and knock the ball loose. To get a steal on the stat sheet one has to gain control.

[wildbill2u]

Lots of steals requires gambling. Bowen did not do this. His hand D was to harrass and knock the ball loose. To get a steal on the stat sheet one has to gain control.

Funny, but most good defensive players with quick hands are good at steals BECAUSE their hand speed and footspeed enables them to knock the ball loose AND control it. Sure they often tip it to another player as well but speed tells and the top players hit it and get it.

The top NBA players for steals over the years have been players with speed and quick hands, usually guards like Chris Paul, Rondo, Iverson, M. Jordan, John Stockton and our own Alvin Robertson.

This year the top five in steal pct. are:
1.Tony Allen (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/allento01.html)-MEM4.52.Chris Paul (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paulch01.html)-NOH3.53.Rajon Rondo (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rondora01.html)-BOS3.24.Russell Westbrook (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westbru01.html)-OKC2.85.Ron Artest (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/artesro01.html)-LAL2.7


Call it a conscious decision not to gamble if you will, (and I don't know how you can get into his mind) but result show Bowen simply wasn't very good at steals. It doesn't detract from his overall defense, but that's a fact.

[ShoogarBear]

If Blair were a much better ball handler, and passer with a decent shot. This guy is more likely to be a combo forward along the lines of Lamar Odom, or as you might better understand, Connie Hawkins.

I've seen very little of Leonard, but Blair is not a bad touch passer. In fact, the thing I like best about his game (other than the offensive rebounding) is how he understands angles and spacing on offense, which is why he works with Manu so well.

And hey, wait . . . did you just call me old? :)


To get a steal on the stat sheet one has to gain control.

Not true. If the statistician knows what he's doing, you should just have to be the one causing the other team to lose possession.

[Man In Black]

Call it a conscious decision not to gamble if you will, (and I don't know how you can get into his mind) but result show Bowen simply wasn't very good at steals. It doesn't detract from his overall defense, but that's a fact.

It's not a bad thing to get a lot of steals if you can get a lot of STOPS. That's what Bruce did so valiantly with the team during the title runs. He'd force these offensive juggernauts into a day where their efficiency took a dump because of his pressure.
What's good to point out is that Leonard isn't really the gambling type either. He's of that GET THE STOP mentality.

See the San Diego Union Trib Video of him when playing for Coach Steve Fisher to get some perspective.
http://bcove.me/a12awn8t

[GSH]

Bowen didn't gamble on defense. He stayed the hell home, and forced the best shooters on opposing teams to take bad shots or pass the ball. And in case you haven't noticed, Pop doesn't appreciate gambling defense. Guys who go after a lot of steals tend to wind up in the doghouse.

[TDMVPDPOY]

dunno why comparing him to bowen who has no inside game

should be comparing to jax

[Old School 44]

I think Bruce will go down as the better on the ball defender, but Leonard has the potential to be a bigger offensive threat and easily a better rebounder. Not to take away from Bruce's stellar accomplishments on D, but it helps to know you have prime Duncan behind you.

[pgardn]

Funny, but most good defensive players with quick hands are good at steals BECAUSE their hand speed and footspeed enables them to knock the ball loose AND control it. Sure they often tip it to another player as well but speed tells and the top players hit it and get it.

The top NBA players for steals over the years have been players with speed and quick hands, usually guards like Chris Paul, Rondo, Iverson, M. Jordan, John Stockton and our own Alvin Robertson.

This year the top five in steal pct. are:
1.Tony Allen (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/allento01.html)-MEM4.52.Chris Paul (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paulch01.html)-NOH3.53.Rajon Rondo (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rondora01.html)-BOS3.24.Russell Westbrook (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westbru01.html)-OKC2.85.Ron Artest (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/artesro01.html)-LAL2.7


Call it a conscious decision not to gamble if you will, (and I don't know how you can get into his mind) but result show Bowen simply wasn't very good at steals. It doesn't detract from his overall defense, but that's a fact.


Basically all guards that gamble. Guards have ball in hand more often so have more of a chance to steal just like posts have a better position to rebound. And none of those guys on the list (except Jordan) and including Artest(meta world idiot), was as good as Bowen imo. Iverson is a perfect example of the gambler. So I respectfully, but totally disagree. Bowen could guard a wider range of players than anyone on that list as well. Stockton was very good at cheating off his man as is Westbrook but both could be had backdoor because of this and both did get burned on this. Although Stockton could was so smart/dirty he would find a way back to at least hack the hell out of his man.

And of course its a decision not to gamble when you cover the best player on the floor. You play position instead of overplaying and gambling. You make them work every play. Bowen did not come off people to double that often, he tirelessly followed guys like Rip Hamilton or even Dirk around screens. Nothing easy. Ginobili had chances to double because he did not cover the best man on the court when Bowen played. So I dont think steals are the best indicator of how good a defender you are just like blocked shots are not. Marcus Camby won defensive player of the year while at Denver by getting blocks after leaving his man. The same year when the Spurs play Denver in the playoffs, Camby does not cover Duncan? The defensive player of the year does not cover the best player on the other team that plays basically the same position?

[TJastal]

I think Bowen's lateral quickness was FAR superior to this guy. And also he could lift a 185lb bar up more than 3 times.

I get a feeling this guy will be a classic tweener.. not strong enough to guard the "big" forwards, and not quick enough to guard the "fast" ones. He certainly isn't going to be guarding 1's and 2's or even 4's like Bowen could (with ease I might add).

This thread is a complete joke. This guy will be nowhere even close to Bruce Bowen in terms of ability and versatility on defense. If the comparison was to Keith Bogans, then we might have something to talk about.

[elemento]

The boy is 19

Can't we wait until he plays some minutes in a real NBA game to compare him to someone?

[Man In Black]

I think Bowen's lateral quickness was FAR superior to this guy. And also he could lift a 185lb bar up more than 3 times.

I get a feeling this guy will be a classic tweener.. not strong enough to guard the "big" forwards, and not quick enough to guard the "fast" ones. He certainly isn't going to be guarding 1's and 2's or even 4's like Bowen could (with ease I might add).

This thread is a complete joke. This guy will be nowhere even close to Bruce Bowen in terms of ability and versatility on defense. If the comparison was to Keith Bogans, then we might have something to talk about.

Next you'll give us a referential lift chart that supports your hypotheses and then enthrall us with your knowledge of the defensive alignments that Hank Egan instilled in Pop as a player at Air Force. Seriously...I asked the question, how many complete games have you seen Leonard play?

I'll say 3 at most and they were watched in March. Yeah...got it, your powers of observation are legendary...in your own mind.

[temujin]

In another thread:
Blair (with better defense).
Bynum (with larger widespan).
Sprewell.

Here.

Bowen
Wallace
Connie Hawkins (!!!!!)

I wonder how long is it going to take before someone brings up Julius Erving.

[pgardn]

I've seen very little of Leonard, but Blair is not a bad touch passer. In fact, the thing I like best about his game (other than the offensive rebounding) is how he understands angles and spacing on offense, which is why he works with Manu so well.

And hey, wait . . . did you just call me old? :)



Not true. If the statistician knows what he's doing, you should just have to be the one causing the other team to lose possession.

Respectfully, from the times I have tried to keep track myself the NBA stat men do not use the FIBA rule on steals. A defensive player can knock a ball free in a crowd, his team gains possession and it goes as a turnover, the steal is forgotten and or not seen. They dont go back to look at instant replay to see if the defender deflected the ball, its easier to just give a TO.

We are getting away from the original intent of the thread, so I apologize.

[Chomag]

Hes going to be much better then Udoka and thats all that matters to me. :lol

[TJastal]

http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/2392/esqkawhileonard062411xl.jpg

Well, one thing's for certain, I don't think Bruce would have been caught dead in this suit.

:lmao :rollin

[Mel_13]

http://www.thefantasyninjas.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Bruce-Bowen-Bowtie.jpg

[Fabbs]

The Connie Hawkins comparison is legitimate.
He isn't Connoe Hawkins,
he isn't athletic enough
or as good on either end.
But a 6'7" forward (Hawk was a couple inches taller)
Kinda looses it's steam at that point. :lol

[temujin]

http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/2392/esqkawhileonard062411xl.jpg

Well, one thing's for certain, I don't think Bruce would have been caught dead in this suit.

:lmao :rollin

:rollin

I particularly appreciate that white blob of uncertified tissue coming out of the pocket.

:rollin

[Mr. Body]

Lookit Leonard shaking Stern's hand at the podium. Sheesh. He could have wrapped his mitt completely around the Commissioner's. If you block the top half of the photo it's like he's holding a little boy's hand.

[pancakechef]

No one has ever been able to move laterally like Bowen without bending his knees and staying tall, freakish ability. Personally I have never seen anything like it. Add to this that Bruce's hands were as quick as Manu's... No comparison.

Its called defense. Something rarely seen by todays NBA players or taught by coaches.

To answer the question the kid will have to get quicker, smarter and become a better shooter in order to even match Bowen. Instincts cant be taught either.....

In reference to FIBA rules I totally agree that NBA stats should include deflections. In that case Blair would be the man BY FAR.

It isnt fair if a player pokes a ball loose and another player picks it up (gets the steal and the points in a fast break situation) and the deflector does not get an assist or a steal.

[ivanfromwestwood]

the big question is can he guard Dirk. Bowen did very well. i remember the block on Dirk during the playoffs. i remember when we used to move Bowen around defensively to guard whoever was hot on the other team regardless of position.

http://www.nba.com/media/spurs/Bowen-Block_400_060517.jpg

[wildbill2u]

Nobody can guard Dirk. I swear the guy has worked on his game to where he is a lot tougher to guard than in Bowen's day. He used to just hang around the perimeter, looking for his jump shot opportunities. Even then, Dirk got his points--Bowen was just able to keep them down sometimes from his average.

Dirk now regularly posts up smaller, lighter players to get that short range step back jumper off one foot. That wasn't in the arsenal then. He also has developed his ability to drive to the basket as well as some good post moves near the basket.

[pjjrfan]

Bowen had great footspeed, lateral quickness and was always in great defensive positions. Hard to compare until I see Leonard in action.

[pgardn]

Its called defense. Something rarely seen by todays NBA players or taught by coaches.

To answer the question the kid will have to get quicker, smarter and become a better shooter in order to even match Bowen. Instincts cant be taught either.....

In reference to FIBA rules I totally agree that NBA stats should include deflections. In that case Blair would be the man BY FAR.

It isnt fair if a player pokes a ball loose and another player picks it up (gets the steal and the points in a fast break situation) and the deflector does not get an assist or a steal.

Defense without bending the knees in order to stay tall is not something that can be taught imo. Bruce could shuffle without bending his knees like some sort of river walk/dance freak, and Im not talking about our river walk.

The NBA does try to use the FIBA criteria for steals, I just dont think its done carefully and therefore is overrated as a stat just like blocks. I think the Mavs showed how much can be done with position, switching, closing-out properly and good help D. Of course having Chandler and Marion helped a bit as well.

I apologize again for getting off subject. I hope Leonard can be 65% of what Bowen was on D and add a few other things. Long rebounding would really help as well. It appears that Manu is the best on our team at hunting down the long rebound, thats not good.

[pgardn]

Nobody can guard Dirk. I swear the guy has worked on his game to where he is a lot tougher to guard than in Bowen's day. He used to just hang around the perimeter, looking for his jump shot opportunities. Even then, Dirk got his points--Bowen was just able to keep them down sometimes from his average.

Dirk now regularly posts up smaller, lighter players to get that short range step back jumper off one foot. That wasn't in the arsenal then. He also has developed his ability to drive to the basket as well as some good post moves near the basket.

This is very interesting as I was thinking about this as well.

One thing Bowen did differently is that when Dirk caught the ball at the elbow shielding Bowen with his back to the basket Bruce would then step in closer not allowing Dirk the room to jab step forward and get his feet set facing the basket. If Dirk brought the ball down to try and regain balance after receiving a pass Bowen would slap it loose. In effect he did not allow Dirk to get comfortably set and balanced, Dirk always appeared to be leaning backwards. If Dirk would hold the ball high and swing his elbows around to gain body position Bowen's face was waiting. If Dirk did try to just fall away Bowen would quickly move to the right side (ball side) of Dirk's body and pester. Dirk of course would still score, but Bowen cut off more options.
I think the left side drive resulting in a baby hook or layup might be the key as you in effect stated. Dirk can still add the 15 foot bank shot to his arsenal, he has yet to use this effectively. This would again be almost impossible to stop as he could shoot the ball high like on his fall aways. Even though his shooting % was not great in the series with Miami his 4th quarters were so good he put the choke to rest. Amazing player...

[iminol]

Is Bruce Bowen still in good relations with Spurs organisation?
I wonder if it's possible to ask him to work with Leonard. I mean stuff like H.Olajuwon did with Dwight or this summer with Gortat. Hmm.

[ElNono]

Really guys? Compare Leonard to Bowen? Now?

smh

[objective]

Is Bruce Bowen still in good relations with Spurs organisation?


I'm guessing no.

He was questionably benched, then when he voluntarily retired had that ridiculed by Pop, and followed up by the Spurs giving some 10-day scrub his jersey number when it should be retired.

Seems like he's on the Spurs S-list.

[pancakechef]

Ohhhh. You said something negative about POP wait for the homers to arrive.....

[ChumpDumper]

I'm guessing no.

He was questionably benched, then when he voluntarily retired had that ridiculed by Pop, and followed up by the Spurs giving some 10-day scrub his jersey number when it should be retired.

Seems like he's on the Spurs S-list.Bruce has made personal appearances on behalf of the team. I doubt he would do that were he on their shit list.

[pancakechef]

Doesnt mean he likes them. Just means he doesnt want to be unprofessional.

[ChumpDumper]

Doesnt mean he likes them. Just means he doesnt want to be unprofessional.Well, we can just add that to the pile of stupid shit you've said.

[wildbill2u]

Is Bruce Bowen still in good relations with Spurs organisation?
I wonder if it's possible to ask him to work with Leonard. I mean stuff like H.Olajuwon did with Dwight or this summer with Gortat. Hmm.

Maybe he could teach Leonard his legendary feat of moving laterally quickly enough to keep up with an NBA quality player, without ever ever ever bending the knees.

Try it and you'll look sort of like a awkward zombie or something. But move slowly or you'll break a leg.

To be able to do that seems to defy nature as physically impossible-- not to mention that it goes against all coaching maxims about keeping your balance. And since people actually claim to have seen it and others believe that Bruce could do it, I have to accept accept it.

[pgardn]

Maybe he could teach Leonard his legendary feat of moving laterally quickly enough to keep up with an NBA quality player, without ever ever ever bending the knees.

Try it and you'll look sort of like a awkward zombie or something. But move slowly or you'll break a leg.

To be able to do that seems to defy nature as physically impossible-- not to mention that it goes against all coaching maxims about keeping your balance. And since people actually claim to have seen it and others believe that Bruce could do it, I have to accept accept it.

yes never ever ever never...

Bruce had an unquie waystay very upright while moving laterally, thats all I am attempting to get across.And of course I would never attempt to teach failed sarcasm or altering the basic composition of a post either.

Defy nature, sure...as longas your center of gravity is above your feet you defy nothing "pro-fessor".

[wildbill2u]

[QUOTE=pgardn;5332334]yes never ever ever never...

Bruce had an unquie waystay very upright while moving laterally, thats all I am attempting to get across....QUOTE]

No, no don't back off of this now:

"Defense without bending the knees in order to stay tall is not something that can be taught imo. Bruce could shuffle without bending his knees like some sort of river walk/dance freak, and Im not talking about our river walk."

Besides, somebody else backed you up and said he saw it too. I don't remember Bruce lurching around on stiff legs personally, but by God, it must have been his trademark moves and I just missed it.

But on reflection, I agree with you. I don't think it can be taught, will be taught or should be taught to most players. As you have said, Bruce was unique in that regard.

"as longas your center of gravity is above your feet you defy nothing "pro-fessor"."

As far as center of gravity is concerned, again I bow to your knowledge.

I'd always been coached that by lowering my center of gravity (keep your butt down), the less likely I was to lose my balance or lateral quickness, but maybe Bruce's center of gravity was BELOW his feet and that accounts for his balance.

After thinking about this issue, I went back and looked at videos of Leonard. It's scary. He's got the defensive stance all wrong--bent at the knees and in sort of a crouch. He looks ready to pounce, but I guess he'll never become a good defensive player in the NBA.