MJ and Kobe vs. Shaq and Duncan

[Koolaid_Man]

:lol if you're starting a team who do you pick...team 1 is MJ and Kobe and team 2 is Shaq and Duncan..you can build around either team 1 or team 2...

Big vs. the Best 2 guards in history...


I think I'm going with these guards if I'm starting a team...Shaq can be slowed down and Duncan could be stopped.

[xellos88330]

Shaq could be slowed down and Duncan could be stopped? Not by MJ or Kobe. The two would just be buried under the basket the whole game.

If MJ or Kobe misses a jumpshot, since that is all they will be able to get, the game is over. They aren't going to be able to stop Shaq or Duncan. They will also never get a rebound.

[Bill_Brasky]

i'd pick kwame brown

[hater]

what a failure of a thread. Kobe would never even touch the ball in MJ's team. So it would be MJ alone vs. 2 of the best bigmen in the NBA.

[SpursIndonesia]

Rather than Shaq + Duncan combo, i would love to see a combo of Hakeem + DRob/Wilt the Stilt, the defense would be much more suffocating while the offense would be just as good.

[pass1st]

If Kobe accepts the Pippen role, then I would pick MJ and Kobe. If not, Shaq and Duncan are easier to handle since their collective ego wouldn't be as suffocating.

[Amaso]

Man, I can't even imagine MJ/Kobe on both sides of the court.

[Shane27]

shaq and duncan easy. You have to remember there is only one ball

[resistanze]

Shaq at C and Duncan at PF...fill the team with semi-capable players and you have a dynasty.

MJ and Kobe for me are too redundant.

[Shane27]

Rather than Shaq + Duncan combo, i would love to see a combo of Hakeem + DRob/Wilt the Stilt, the defense would be much more suffocating while the offense would be just as good.

i'd like to see hakeem and shaq. That would be filthy

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

:lol if you're starting a team who do you pick...team 1 is MJ and Kobe and team 2 is Shaq and Duncan..you can build around either team 1 or team 2...

Big vs. the Best 2 guards in history...


I think I'm going with these guards if I'm starting a team...Shaq can be slowed down and Duncan could be stopped.
Nigga, please.....

EU1H_Y6EzP4

[Koolaid_Man]

what a failure of a thread. Kobe would never even touch the ball in MJ's team. So it would be MJ alone vs. 2 of the best bigmen in the NBA.


This is not about rumors of.selfishness, ego, or arrogance. The presumption is they're sharing and both dominant in their primes. The argument was / is which two teams would you build around. MJ playing the 2 and Mr. 81 playing the point. I think you could plug Hakeem and Wilt on MJ and Kobes team to stop Shaq and Duncan. You just don't pass up the most prolific backcourt in world history.

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

I think a more interesting topic is:

which combo would be better:
Shaq and Kobe vs.Tim and MJ or Shaq and MJ vs. Tim and Kobe.

Tim and Kobe actually came close to happening. Boston passed on drafting Bryant and lost the lottery sweepstakes the following year. Same with the Grizzlies.

[SpursIndonesia]

This is not about rumors of.selfishness, ego, or arrogance. The presumption is they're sharing and both dominant in their primes. The argument was / is which two teams would you build around. MJ playing the 2 and Mr. 81 playing the point. I think you could plug Hakeem and Wilt on MJ and Kobes team to stop Shaq and Duncan. You just don't pass up the most prolific backcourt in world history.

You put Hakeem & Wilt on MJ + Kobe's team ? I think i'll try to counter that with Scottie Pip, Magic Johnson, and Larry Legend on Shaq + TD's team. :lobt:

But that would still be hard, MJ is just so damn good, Kobe would be just playing Derek Fisher's role on that team, and that still wouldn't matter. :wakeup

[LkrFan]

This ins't a thread about who would win between the two duos, it's who would you start a team with - big difference. But even if it was, Kobe mastered the MJ/Pippen hybrid role so it wouldn't be hard for him to play with MJ.

MJ and Kobe are both two of the fiercest competitors that ever laced them up. Shaq/TD wouldn't have the heart to deal with those two alpha dogs. For those that think Kobe and MJ would get posted up all day, have you ever heard of perimeter defense and ball denial? Neither Shaq or TD have the handles to take them alpha dogs off the dribble or even get into position to make a good post entry pass. OTOH, who guards Kobe? Who guards Shaq? Either could go inside or outside. It would not be fair.

Back on topic. MJ/Kobe = 11 rings. Shaq/TD = 8 rings. I'd roll with them two to start a team.

[Nathan89]

I think a more interesting topic is:

which combo would be better:
Shaq and Kobe vs.Tim and MJ or Shaq and MJ vs. Tim and Kobe.

Tim and Kobe actually came close to happening. Boston passed on drafting Bryant and lost the lottery sweepstakes the following year. Same with the Grizzlies.

I don't think that's a very interesting topic. The team with Kobe loses. It's as simple as that.

[Koolaid_Man]

I think a more interesting topic is:

which combo would be better:
Shaq and Kobe vs.Tim and MJ or Shaq and MJ vs. Tim and Kobe.

Tim and Kobe actually came close to happening. Boston passed on drafting Bryant and lost the lottery sweepstakes the following year. Same with the Grizzlies.

In your scenario I'd pick Tim and MJ and Tim and Kobe. I think MJ is just a shade better than Kobe but Kobe thinks the floor better than MJ that match up would cancel out. I think the biggest factor is Tim vs Shaq and I think Tim would out think Shaq and this gain the advantage.

[z0sa]

Kobe doesn't belong in the same sentence as MJ, TD, and Shaq

[Nathan89]

In your scenario I'd pick Tim and MJ and Tim and Kobe. I think MJ is just a shade better than Kobe but Kobe thinks the floor better than MJ that match up would cancel out. I think the biggest factor is Tim vs Shaq and I think Tim would out think Shaq and this gain the advantage.

:wow

[Koolaid_Man]

:wow


There's nothing to be shocked about. I've always given Dunan his props.:lol
I don't see how in the fuck MJ would stay in front of Kobe and vice versa. Kobe is a more prolific scorer than MJ..he just happened to play with Shaq, thus the difference in their stats
Kobe would not defer to MJ and why should he...he's an alpha male...Pip deferred because he had to.

[LkrFan]

I think a more interesting topic is:

which combo would be better:
Shaq and Kobe vs.Tim and MJ or Shaq and MJ vs. Tim and Kobe.

Tim and Kobe actually came close to happening. Boston passed on drafting Bryant and lost the lottery sweepstakes the following year. Same with the Grizzlies.

In this scenario, I'd take Kobe and TD. In their primes both were great on both sides of the ball. I believe that if they were paired together they would have won at least 6 rings (& yes I would have traded prime Shaq for TD to pair with Kobe).

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

I don't think that's a very interesting topic. The team with Kobe loses. It's as simple as that.
Of course, you're a shitty poster so nothing interests you. My opinion is it's better than the original topic.

[Pero]

I think you could plug Hakeem and Wilt on MJ and Kobes team to stop Shaq and Duncan. You just don't pass up the most prolific backcourt in world history.

So basically for MJ and Kobe to beat Shaq and Duncan they'd also need Wilt and Hakeem on their team? :lmao

Who knew, you're not a total idiot, deep down you actually do know that Tim + Shaq would be better.

[lefty]

WGAF


Jordan and Pippen shit on all of them

[Leetonidas]

This is actually an interesting topic. Kobe and Jordan going at each other in practice would be something, and it would make them even better man defenders. But the utter inside dominating from O'Neal and Duncan is hard to pass up. Tough one.

[Phillip]

Lets take it further, by giving each team a pair of 2nd/3rd tier players to match up with the opposition, and evenly matched up PGs. As an example...

Average Pass-First PG/Michael Jordan/Kobe Bryant/Nene Hilario/Andrew Bynum

vs.

Average Pass-First PG/Manu Ginobili/Shawn Marion/Tim Duncan/Shaquille O'Neal

Who would have the advantage, and why?

[Leetonidas]

Depends on who the average, pass-first point guard is. Are we talking Ramon Sessions or Kirk Hinrich?

[Amaso]

Lets take it further, by giving each team a pair of 2nd/3rd tier players to match up with the opposition, and evenly matched up PGs. As an example...

Average Pass-First PG/Michael Jordan/Kobe Bryant/Nene Hilario/Andrew Bynum

vs.

Average Pass-First PG/Manu Ginobili/Shawn Marion/Tim Duncan/Shaquille O'Neal

Who would have the advantage, and why?

That's a good way of thinking about it.

Obviously no one is going to stop a prime shaq, and ginobli is good enough entry passer to get it into him with no problems. The only problem I have is Duncan/Shaq crowding the paint, making Ginobli's drive to the basket almost negated. Duncan could help spread the floor to give Shaq more room but I'd live with Duncan taking jumpshots. To me it all comes down to the end of the game, and having both Kobe and MJ down the stretch is just too much for Marion/Ginobli.

[DAF86]

:lol Kobe not getting selected even when paired with the GOAT
:lol Thread backfired

[Isitjustme?]

Depends on who the average, pass-first point guard is. Are we talking Ramon Sessions or Kirk Hinrich?

You can't be this stupid...

[Leetonidas]

First two "average" PGs I thought of.

Career averages of 11/5 and 13/6 aren't average?

[Nathan89]

Lets take it further, by giving each team a pair of 2nd/3rd tier players to match up with the opposition, and evenly matched up PGs. As an example...

Average Pass-First PG/Michael Jordan/Kobe Bryant/Nene Hilario/Andrew Bynum

vs.

Average Pass-First PG/Manu Ginobili/Shawn Marion/Tim Duncan/Shaquille O'Neal

Who would have the advantage, and why?

That's bullshit. Shawn Marion, that just ain't right.

[Phillip]

That's bullshit. Shawn Marion, that just ain't right.

Marion was a 20/10 type player for several years in this league. At his prime, he was a damn good player. I think he is very fitting for this discussion. My goal was to give each team a pair of well rounded players, that have had fine success in the league. Marion scored, rebounded, defended, created turnovers, and was a very solid passer. Just because people (spurs fans in particular) have suns hate, doesnt mean he isn't a good player.

[Leetonidas]

That's bullshit. Shawn Marion, that just ain't right.

I think he meant Marion in his prime when he was one of the better defenders and rebounders in the league

[Phillip]

I think he meant Marion in his prime when he was one of the better defenders and rebounders in the league

lol emo stoner actually understanding the point of my post, unlike his gnsf buddy

[Leetonidas]

Out of curiosity where did that emo shit come from? I understand the stoner beaner shit but I don't get the emo part tbh

[Phillip]

That's a good way of thinking about it.

Obviously no one is going to stop a prime shaq, and ginobli is good enough entry passer to get it into him with no problems. The only problem I have is Duncan/Shaq crowding the paint, making Ginobli's drive to the basket almost negated. Duncan could help spread the floor to give Shaq more room but I'd live with Duncan taking jumpshots. To me it all comes down to the end of the game, and having both Kobe and MJ down the stretch is just too much for Marion/Ginobli.

IMO, its easier to gameplan against Duncan/Shaq than it is to gameplan against MJ/Kobe, especially since both players are actually capable of playing off the ball (unlike Bron/Wade). I think I would go with the MJ/Kobe team as well, because of what you said, they would be tougher to stop down the stretch than Shaq/Duncan. Plus I think MJ/Kobe can compliment each other better than Shaq/Duncan can.

[Phillip]

Out of curiosity where did that emo shit come from? I understand the stoner beaner shit but I don't get the emo part tbh

because you like to cut yourself like a faggot

[DAF86]

Marion was a 20/10 type player for several years in this league. At his prime, he was a damn good player. I think he is very fitting for this discussion. My goal was to give each team a pair of well rounded players, that have had fine success in the league. Marion scored, rebounded, defended, created turnovers, and was a very solid passer. Just because people (spurs fans in particular) have suns hate, doesnt mean he isn't a good player.

Bruce Bowen > Marion for that Duncan/Shaq team.

[Leetonidas]

because you like to cut yourself like a faggot

Thanks for clarifying :tu

[LkrFan]

because you like to cut yourself like a faggot

:lol

[Nathan89]

Bruce Bowen > Marion for that Duncan/Shaq team.

I was just about to post the same thing. I new phil was talking about marion in his prime but that team would need some shooters. Since marion can't provide that he is a bad fit.

[Phillip]

Bruce Bowen > Marion for that Duncan/Shaq team.

you obviously are missing the point, you fucking idiot.

and if you really want to get technical, Dirk > Duncan for these particular matchups as well.

[Phillip]

I was just about to post the same thing. I new phil was talking about marion in his prime but that team would need some shooters. Since marion can't provide that he is a bad fit.

another dumbshit that didnt get the point. :rolleyes

[redzero]

Anybody else finds it funny that Koolaid_Man made a thread yesterday in which he asks us to stop making Kobe-Duncan comparisons, then turns around and makes another thread that compares Kobe and Duncan?

[Leetonidas]

you obviously are missing the point, you fucking idiot.

and if you really want to get technical, Dirk > Duncan for these particular matchups as well.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_SO_1-gB06t0/S6GB52VXJ9I/AAAAAAAACe0/A-T4b4dMHyk/s400/trap5.jpg

[dunkman]

Duncan and Shaq's team would win always. Duncan, Shaq, Manu and Marion didn't need many touches to be effective. MJ would get his without doubling, but the rest of that team would struggle.

[Phillip]

Dirk has proven he can handle 2nd tier opponents just fine on defense, while he would give Shaq a lot more space to operate, and vice versa. Duncan and Shaq would just be a clusterfuck in the middle.

I think a Shaq/Dirk led team in this example could definitely be argued as being more effective in a battle against a MJ/Kobe team than Shaq/Duncan would, as Shaq/Dirk compliments each other perfectly.

But I'm not going to get into that any further, as this is a thread about MJ/Kobe vs. Shaq/Duncan, two pairs of great players who have similar playing styles with the player they are paired with.

[Nathan89]

another dumbshit that didnt get the point. :rolleyes

Point is you picked a bad player to fill the team with shaq and Duncan.

[Leetonidas]

Honestly though a Shaq/Dirk/Bowen/Ginobili team I might have to pick. I think I'm leaning towards Kobe/Jordan because I'm thinking down the stretch, Duncan and Shaq, more so Shaq, were terrible free throw shooters and would routinely clang them. The post D on Jordan's team can at least be serviceable against Tim and Shaq but the defense of Marion and Manu or Jordan and Kobe...I don't know about that. Marion could give one of them some trouble and Ginobili, while not a great defender still has some tricks up his sleeve, but MJ/KB24 are some of the better defenders at their positions all-time and would give Ginobili fits since Marion can't create.

[Phillip]

Point is you picked a bad player to fill the team with shaq and Duncan.

i clearly stated the intent was to give each team a pair of 2nd/3rd tier players that were well rounded and match up decently with the opposing duo, and just threw out Marion's name as an example. he most definitely is fitting of a 2nd/3rd tier player, and most definitely can match up decently with MJ/Kobe. the same argument could be made on the other side that Bynum/Nene are not a good pair to place alongside MJ/Kobe for various reasons. Again, my intent was to provide 2nd/3rd tier players that can match up with Shaq/Duncan.

of course, i shouldnt expect a gnsf nor a moron named "nathan" to understand such a simple illustration

[DAF86]

you obviously are missing the point, you fucking idiot.

and if you really want to get technical, Dirk > Duncan for these particular matchups as well.

Your stupid point was to suround Kobe/MJ with 2/3 tier bigmen and an average pass-first PG, and Shaq/Duncan with 2/3 tier wings and an average pass-first PG. But you gave arbitrary names to fill those postions and plyers can be from the same tier but very differents an it would change my opinion of what team I would chose. I was just noticing how stupid your point was, as they usually are, tbh.

Dirk > Prime Duncan isn't option for any particular matchup.

[Nathan89]

i clearly stated the intent was to give each team a pair of 2nd/3rd tier players that were well rounded and match up decently with the opposing duo, and just threw out Marion's name as an example. he most definitely is fitting of a 2nd/3rd tier player, and most definitely can match up decently with MJ/Kobe. the same argument could be made on the other side that Bynum/Nene are not a good pair to place alongside MJ/Kobe for various reasons. Again, my intent was to provide 2nd/3rd tier players that can match up with Shaq/Duncan.

of course, i shouldnt expect a gnsf nor a moron named "nathan" to understand such a simple illustration

You clearly can not get the point, so I must explain it better. While you may have tried your hardest to put together equal talent you still failed miserably. On one team you place Bynum/Nene who are going to match up well on one end and not be a hindrance on the offensive end. On the other team you provide Marion who may be a decent defender will be a huge hindrance on the other end. A player that even in his prime couldn't do jack shit when Bowen played against him in the playoffs.

[Phillip]

Your stupid point was to suround Kobe/MJ with 2/3 tier bigmen and an average pass-first PG, and Shaq/Duncan with 2/3 tier wings and an average pass-first PG. But you gave arbitrary names to fill those postions and plyers can be from the same tier but very differents an it would change my opinion of what team I would chose. I was just noticing how stupid your point was, as they usually are, tbh.

Dirk > Prime Duncan isn't option for any particular matchup.

im sorry, i forgot im arguing with the "manu > dirk" dumbshit.

LMAO LMAO LMAO

[DAF86]

im sorry, i forgot im arguing with the "manu > dirk" dumbshit.

LMAO LMAO LMAO

Yeah, I knew you didn't have a response to that.

[Phillip]

On the other team you provide Marion who may be a decent defender will be a huge hindrance on the other end. A player that even in his prime couldn't do jack shit when Bowen played against him in the playoffs.

I think a lot of players had their share of troubles against Bowen.

But I find it hard to believe that he is a huge hindrance on the other end when he was scoring well over 20 ppg. Obviously he is doing something right offensively. People may want to say "its all steve nash!!!" but thats crap because he was putting up great numbers even before Nash came around.

Marion has been a guy who's skills have not been used to the full his whole career, and I never realized that until he came to Dallas, and proved he was capable of scoring one-on-one against foes, even against great defenders. He consistently complained that he was held back because of the system he was in, and others that played with him agreed. I think its very arguable that his points have now been validated.

But again, the individual role players is not what the discussion is about. It's whether Kobe/MJ and some decent role players or Shaq/Duncan and some decent role players would be more successful.

[Phillip]

Yeah, I knew you didn't have a response to that.

No i just didnt bother wasting my time reading your bullshit, once I looked at your SN and realized who you were.

[DAF86]

Convinient.

[Isitjustme?]

First two "average" PGs I thought of.

Career averages of 11/5 and 13/6 aren't average?

He was using a hypothetical scenario, implying they were equal. In that case it wouldn't matter who they were.

[Leetonidas]

Okay, that's why I asked whether he meant a PG like Sessions or Hinrich, both average PGs, but both are different players.

[Koolaid_Man]

You clearly can not get the point, so I must explain it better. While you may have tried your hardest to put together equal talent you still failed miserably. On one team you place Bynum/Nene who are going to match up well on one end and not be a hindrance on the offensive end. On the other team you provide Marion who may be a decent defender will be a huge hindrance on the other end. A player that even in his prime couldn't do jack shit when Bowen played against him in the playoffs.


dis shat rat he-uh is all I eva revember.....

7x55VxeRs0Q

[dunkman]

weak stuff . . .

[Proxy]

Prime Shaq and Duncan together would stop any team.

[Hooks]

MJ+Sidekick vs 2 dominant bigs that are true leaders?

I'd take Shaq and Duncan easily.

[lefty]

Pippen and Jordan = most versatile duo of all time

Both of them could play 3 positions

And they were both great defensive players



Sorry, but Kobe/Shaq and Duncan/David can go suck a dick

[Stalin]

have you seen marions jumpshot? i'm pretty sure he overachieved in the nba

[Koolaid_Man]

have you seen marions jumpshot? i'm pretty sure he overachieved in the nba

:lmao

Yep. Marion just be throwing shit against the wall hoping it sticks.

[Phillip]

Convinient.

lol smelly argie cant spell

dumbass

[DMC]

lol smelly argie cant spell

dumbass
You must have to beat the women away from you with a stick.

[Phillip]

Okay, that's why I asked whether he meant a PG like Sessions or Hinrich, both average PGs, but both are different players.

you people are some goddamn idiots. the point of it was to see which duo would lead a team of equally matched up role players to victory, not to analyze each fucking player to the teeth.

since you are all too stupid to get the point, let me reword it:

give both duos the exact same PG (a pass first one that can shoot open shots)

MJ and Kobe have to both face guys who are capable of defending MJ and Kobe decently, hitting open shots, handling the ball decently, rebounding decently, and finishing decently, and on the other hand, Shaq and Duncan have to face guys who are capable of defending Shaq and Duncan decently, hitting open short-range shots, clogging the lane decently, guarding the pick and roll decently, rebounding and boxing out decently, and with some decent post play abilities

who wins, you fucking idiots?

[Leetonidas]

your mother faggot

[DMC]

you people are some goddamn idiots. the point of it was to see which duo would lead a team of equally matched up role players to victory, not to analyze each fucking player to the teeth.

since you are all too stupid to get the point, let me reword it:

give both duos the exact same PG (a pass first one that can shoot open shots)

MJ and Kobe have to both face guys who are capable of defending MJ and Kobe decently, hitting open shots, handling the ball decently, rebounding decently, and finishing decently, and on the other hand, Shaq and Duncan have to face guys who are capable of defending Shaq and Duncan decently, hitting open short-range shots, clogging the lane decently, guarding the pick and roll decently, rebounding and boxing out decently, and with some decent post play abilities

who wins, you fucking idiots?

You prefer to curl up with a sci-fi movie over being outdoors. You put too much ketchup on your food. You fight with your sister who's 10 years younger than you. Your mom still does your laundry.

Close?

[TDMVPDPOY]

This is actually an interesting topic. Kobe and Jordan going at each other in practice would be something, and it would make them even better man defenders. But the utter inside dominating from O'Neal and Duncan is hard to pass up. Tough one.

like the 10 fake all defensive teams kobe achieve on reputation? lol media fabricated d-team selections

[100%duncan]

In all seriousness TD and shaq

[Isitjustme?]

your mother faggot

WITTy RETORT!

[joshdaboss]

A better debate would be LeBron/Jordan or Duncan/Shaq. Kobe fucks it up for Jordan.

[Dr House]

You prefer to curl up with a sci-fi movie over being outdoors. You put too much ketchup on your food. You fight with your sister who's 10 years younger than you. Your mom still does your laundry.

Close?

God your faggotry knows no bounds

[Phillip]

like the 10 fake all defensive teams kobe achieve on reputation? lol media fabricated d-team selections

he didnt deserve all of those 1st team selections for sure, but he definitely deserved quite a few of them.

and lets not kid ourselves, when Kobe puts forth full effort on defense, he still is as tough as most any perimeter defender out there.

[rmt]

It would be much easier to build around Shaq/Duncan. Get a few quality defenders who can hit the 3pter (Bowen, Battier-types) - much cheaper than getting quality big men for the MJ/Kobe duo. The role players would have open shots galore with Shaq/TD (who would have to be double-teamed) in the paint.

And would Kobe's ego be able to take playing second banana to MJ? He couldn't take it with Shaq - it'd be much worse with MJ - especially since they play the same position.

[Koolaid_Man]

It would be much easier to build around Shaq/Duncan. Get a few quality defenders who can hit the 3pter (Bowen, Battier-types) - much cheaper than getting quality big men for the MJ/Kobe duo. The role players would have open shots galore with Shaq/TD (who would have to be double-teamed) in the paint.

And would Kobe's ego be able to take playing second banana to MJ? He couldn't take it with Shaq - it'd be much worse with MJ - especially since they play the same position.


if MJ couldn't stop Kobe on the defensive side of the ball then why should Kobe play 2nd banana...MJ could mind fuck a lot of players but isn't one of them. Kobe would have kicked MJ's ass...MJ wouldn't have punched Kobe in the eye like he did Kerr...

:lol we're not talking titles here we're talking talents...Kobe is a more pure scorer than MJ with better range...Where MJ beats Kobe is midrange that's it...Kobe would take a back seat to no one...If he didn't do it for Shaq - arguably the biggest dude to ever play the game what makes you think he'd do it for MJ...:lol

[Phillip]

if MJ couldn't stop Kobe on the defensive side of the ball then why should Kobe play 2nd banana...MJ could mind fuck a lot of players but isn't one of them. Kobe would have kicked MJ's ass...MJ wouldn't have punched Kobe in the eye like he did Kerr...

:lol we're not talking titles here we're talking talents...Kobe is a more pure scorer than MJ with better range...Where MJ beats Kobe is midrange that's it...Kobe would take a back seat to no one...If he didn't do it for Shaq - arguably the biggest dude to ever play the game what makes you think he'd do it for MJ...:lol

I think there is a better chance Kobe takes backseat to MJ than MJ takes backseat to Kobe, honestly. And actually, Kobe's skillsets (shooting ability in particular) makes him a better candidate to play off MJ more often than MJ playing off of Kobe.

Kobe may be more skilled than MJ, but make no mistake, he doesnt use those skills like he should. There is no reason Kobe should not be a more efficient offensive player than MJ, when looking at his skillset, but Kobe obviously has a love of forcing bad shots. MJ always had a much smarter shot selection, and to discredit that part of MJs game is ridiculous. It's the same reason JR Smith isn't a superstar, even though he has all the skills of a superstar-type player. If he had the brains of a superstar, he would actually be one, instead of a cheap imitation like he is. Of course, you are going to be a moron and take this as me trying to take a shot at Kobe and put him down or something stupid like that, so I don't expect to see any sort of logical reply to this in return.

But in the end, neither would neccesarily take a backseat to the other, as opposed to being 1a and 1b. Both players hate losing like nothing else, and will do what it takes to win. Also both players have been in situations where they were willing to take a lesser role to win (MJ on the Dream Team, Kobe with Shaq). MJ's sample size is obviously limited, but I think Kobe most definitely would be willing to give up a little of his own, if its letting someone like MJ take a few away, with the goal of winning in mind. I dont think there would be a problem, unless they were frequently losing games that they should be winning.

[Axe Murderer]

good post phillip

[Koolaid_Man]

I think there is a better chance Kobe takes backseat to MJ than MJ takes backseat to Kobe, honestly. And actually, Kobe's skillsets (shooting ability in particular) makes him a better candidate to play off MJ more often than MJ playing off of Kobe.

Kobe may be more skilled than MJ, but make no mistake, he doesnt use those skills like he should. There is no reason Kobe should not be a more efficient offensive player than MJ, when looking at his skillset, but Kobe obviously has a love of forcing bad shots. MJ always had a much smarter shot selection, and to discredit that part of MJs game is ridiculous. It's the same reason JR Smith isn't a superstar, even though he has all the skills of a superstar-type player. If he had the brains of a superstar, he would actually be one, instead of a cheap imitation like he is. Of course, you are going to be a moron and take this as me trying to take a shot at Kobe and put him down or something stupid like that, so I don't expect to see any sort of logical reply to this in return.

But in the end, neither would neccesarily take a backseat to the other, as opposed to being 1a and 1b. Both players hate losing like nothing else, and will do what it takes to win. Also both players have been in situations where they were willing to take a lesser role to win (MJ on the Dream Team, Kobe with Shaq). MJ's sample size is obviously limited, but I think Kobe most definitely would be willing to give up a little of his own, if its letting someone like MJ take a few away, with the goal of winning in mind. I dont think there would be a problem, unless they were frequently losing games that they should be winning.


I agree with your post..but let me just say that even Phil said that Kobe was asked to do much more than MJ ever was...Alll MJ had to do was score and defend...Kobe's asked to score, facilitate, and defend. MJ's always had great defensive players and plenty of great shooters whereas Kobe played with a dominant albeit lazy ass center. I think you'd have a situation where both would respect each others game...and I can see fighting taking place...MJ never hit Pippen because he knew Pippen wouldn't hit back. Pip was weak mentally so he played his role to a tee...You right though they'd both feed of each other and in my opinion their mindset alone or collectively would run a Shaq / Duncan led team out the gym...Shaq and Duncan couldn't hold a candle to MJ / Kobe physically or mentally...MJ and Kobe have a psychotic desire to win...Tim and Shaq wouldn't want it as bad...

[Phillip]

It would be much easier to build around Shaq/Duncan. Get a few quality defenders who can hit the 3pter (Bowen, Battier-types) - much cheaper than getting quality big men for the MJ/Kobe duo. The role players would have open shots galore with Shaq/TD (who would have to be double-teamed) in the paint.

They would be deadly, but I'm still not sure if I want to be relying on role players to carry the team in the crunch, which is exactly what will happen, once the opposing team starts swarming the paint and playing passing lanes. The lack of offensive versatility will ultimately be their downfall. It's the reason Orlando with Dwight hasnt been able to get a championship yet. Once they start swarming him, problems arise, because the offense becomes so hit-or-miss with relying on role players to basically win from the 3pt line.

I think MJ/Kobe's versatile ability to make the game easy for teammates will be more effective down the stretch than Shaq/Duncans, because they not only can make you pay with dishing to the perimeter from the paint, but can also get very easy buckets for their big men cutting. Look how often Pau Gasol is able to get easy layups and dunks in the clutch, thanks to Kobe being able to draw attention on his drives. IMO, it would be a lot harder for Duncan and Shaq to be able to do that for each other.

[Phillip]

I agree with your post..but let me just say that even Phil said that Kobe was asked to do much more than MJ ever was...Alll MJ had to do was score and defend...Kobe's asked to score, facilitate, and defend. MJ's always had great defensive players and plenty of great shooters whereas Kobe played with a dominant albeit lazy ass center. I think you'd have a situation where both would respect each others game...and I can see fighting taking place...MJ never hit Pippen because he knew Pippen wouldn't hit back. Pip was weak mentally so he played his role to a tee...You right though they'd both feed of each other and in my opinion their mindset alone or collectively would run a Shaq / Duncan led team out the gym...Shaq and Duncan couldn't hold a candle to MJ / Kobe physically or mentally...MJ and Kobe have a psychotic desire to win...Tim and Shaq wouldn't want it as bad...

Kobe never played with great shooters, or great defensive players? I'd say he has played with his share of shooters (Fisher, Horry, Fox were all very capable 3pt shooters), as well as defenders (Fox, Artest, Ariza, Bynum). MJ had done his share of faciliating as well, although the Bulls style of offense was ran a little differently than the Lakers. He worked heavily in the high-post, while Kobe would set up Gasol for easy buckets. MJ didn't have a player like Gasol to set up, so a lot more offense was simply ran through him, instead of being ran by him. But to say he was not capable of facilitating is crap as well. There was a stretch late in the 88-89 season where they began using MJ as the PG, and he put up 12 triple doubles in that stretch, and had 18 games of 10+ assists.

[ElNono]

Phillip

[mavsfan1000]

MJ>>>Kobe Shaq>Duncan. That has been pretty established imo.

[Koolaid_Man]

Kobe never played with great shooters, or great defensive players? I'd say he has played with his share of shooters (Fisher, Horry, Fox were all very capable 3pt shooters), as well as defenders (Fox, Artest, Ariza, Bynum). MJ had done his share of faciliating as well, although the Bulls style of offense was ran a little differently than the Lakers. He worked heavily in the high-post, while Kobe would set up Gasol for easy buckets. MJ didn't have a player like Gasol to set up, so a lot more offense was simply ran through him, instead of being ran by him. But to say he was not capable of facilitating is crap as well. There was a stretch late in the 88-89 season where they began using MJ as the PG, and he put up 12 triple doubles in that stretch, and had 18 games of 10+ assists.

I've just finished my lunch. I grilled up some fresh tuna, blackened it, and made me a tuna sandwhich with a nice bow tie pasta salad. Guess I'm gonna have to eat some more...:lol

U ready...:lol

Nope Kobe's never had great 3 pt shooters but they were decent. But not as great or prolific as MJ's shooters.

Fisher .375 career vs Craig Hodges .400
Horry .341 career vs Steve Kerr .454
Fox .349 career vs Paxson .355

These percentage delta's in favor of MJ's team can be the difference between 5 and 6 titles. :lol

Dennis Rodman, Ron Harper, Scottie Pippen, Charles Oakley, and Horace Grant.

Are you fucking kidding me. Comparing Rick Fox, a Ron Artest past his prime, a Trevor Ariza we had for basically one year, AND a glass knees Bynum....comparing these guys to MJ's defensive cast is insane.

According to Phil he didn't ask MJ to do the things he's asked of Kobe. Why? Because MJ's team's overall were mentally stronger and better equipped. MJ didn't have to baby sit to the degree that Kobe does.

MJ played in the high post has zero to do with Kobe's use of Pau. MJ also played very well at low post and was even better in the mid post. Kobe does most of his work in the high post as well...and unfortunately the main reason Gasol is usually in the high post is because he can't keep position in the low post. He gets pushed out of position by guards and small fowards.

MJ setup his small forward Pippen in the high post all the time. Why? Because thats where the 4 usually operates. Pippen was way more fluid than Gasol, so are argument that you probably thought was on point is wrong as shit. :lol

Fact is I'm right ad usual Kobe was asked to do way more than MJ not my words but Phil's.
Next time you try to raise up to challenge me bring ya A game son.

[Phillip]

I've just finished my lunch. I grilled up some fresh tuna, blackened it, and made me a tuna sandwhich with a nice bow tie pasta salad. Guess I'm gonna have to eat some more...:lol

U ready...:lol

Nope Kobe's never had great 3 pt shooters but they were decent. But not as great or prolific as MJ's shooters.

Fisher .375 career vs Craig Hodges .400
Horry .341 career vs Steve Kerr .454
Fox .349 career vs Paxson .355

These percentage delta's in favor of MJ's team can be the difference between 5 and 6 titles. :lol

Dennis Rodman, Ron Harper, Scottie Pippen, Charles Oakley, and Horace Grant.

Are you fucking kidding me. Comparing Rick Fox, a Ron Artest past his prime, a Trevor Ariza we had for basically one year, AND a glass knees Bynum....comparing these guys to MJ's defensive cast is insane.

According to Phil he didn't ask MJ to do the things he's asked of Kobe. Why? Because MJ's team's overall were mentally stronger and better equipped. MJ didn't have to baby sit to the degree that Kobe does.

MJ played in the high post has zero to do with Kobe's use of Pau. MJ also played very well at low post and was even better in the mid post. Kobe does most of his work in the high post as well...and unfortunately the main reason Gasol is usually in the high post is because he can't keep position in the low post. He gets pushed out of position by guards and small fowards.

MJ setup his small forward Pippen in the high post all the time. Why? Because thats where the 4 usually operates. Pippen was way more fluid than Gasol, so are argument that you probably thought was on point is wrong as shit. :lol

Fact is I'm right ad usual Kobe was asked to do way more than MJ not my words but Phil's.
Next time you try to raise up to challenge me bring ya A game son.

You claimed Kobe had no shooters or defenders. He definitely did. They might not have been amazing, but they got the job done. And the fact that he had the Big Diesel to dish easy assists to is something MJ never had the luxury of. He also never had a hardcore bigman in the middle like Bynum (even if he misses half the season, he was there for two title runs in the playoffs) on the defensive end.

Point is, both players had their share of help in different areas. Your idea that 3pt% is the difference between 5 and 6 titles is ridiculous because of this fact. It could easily be said that having a big man to get 20+ easy points a game out of, was the difference between 6 titles and 10 titles for MJ. Worthless point in the end.

Your other claims are just full of retarded bias and knobslobbing of Kobe, so I'm not going to waste my time replying any further to them. Idiots like you are the #1 reason so many people hate on Kobe, not because of Kobe himself. If he didn't have fucktard fans like yourself, he would be every bit as loved as MJ. Blame yourself for the unfair hate that he gets.

[Axe Murderer]

http://www.philiprivers.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/philip-rivers.jpg

[Nathan89]

I've just finished my lunch. I grilled up some fresh tuna, blackened it, and made me a tuna sandwhich with a nice bow tie pasta salad. Guess I'm gonna have to eat some more...:lol

U ready...:lol

Nope Kobe's never had great 3 pt shooters but they were decent. But not as great or prolific as MJ's shooters.

Fisher .375 career vs Craig Hodges .400
Horry .341 career vs Steve Kerr .454
Fox .349 career vs Paxson .355

These percentage delta's in favor of MJ's team can be the difference between 5 and 6 titles. :lol

Dennis Rodman, Ron Harper, Scottie Pippen, Charles Oakley, and Horace Grant.

Are you fucking kidding me. Comparing Rick Fox, a Ron Artest past his prime, a Trevor Ariza we had for basically one year, AND a glass knees Bynum....comparing these guys to MJ's defensive cast is insane.

According to Phil he didn't ask MJ to do the things he's asked of Kobe. Why? Because MJ's team's overall were mentally stronger and better equipped. MJ didn't have to baby sit to the degree that Kobe does.

MJ played in the high post has zero to do with Kobe's use of Pau. MJ also played very well at low post and was even better in the mid post. Kobe does most of his work in the high post as well...and unfortunately the main reason Gasol is usually in the high post is because he can't keep position in the low post. He gets pushed out of position by guards and small fowards.

MJ setup his small forward Pippen in the high post all the time. Why? Because thats where the 4 usually operates. Pippen was way more fluid than Gasol, so are argument that you probably thought was on point is wrong as shit. :lol

Fact is I'm right ad usual Kobe was asked to do way more than MJ not my words but Phil's.
Next time you try to raise up to challenge me bring ya A game son.

6 for 24 doesn't win the game unless you have teammates to carry you.

37% shooting throughout the 2000 finals basically means you didn't contribute.

[Koolaid_Man]

You claimed Kobe had no shooters or defenders. He definitely did. They might not have been amazing, but they got the job done. And the fact that he had the Big Diesel to dish easy assists to is something MJ never had the luxury of. He also never had a hardcore bigman in the middle like Bynum (even if he misses half the season, he was there for two title runs in the playoffs) on the defensive end.

Point is, both players had their share of help in different areas. Your idea that 3pt% is the difference between 5 and 6 titles is ridiculous because of this fact. It could easily be said that having a big man to get 20+ easy points a game out of, was the difference between 6 titles and 10 titles for MJ. Worthless point in the end.

Your other claims are just full of retarded bias and knobslobbing of Kobe, so I'm not going to waste my time replying any further to them. Idiots like you are the #1 reason so many people hate on Kobe, not because of Kobe himself. If he didn't have fucktard fans like yourself, he would be every bit as loved as MJ. Blame yourself for the unfair hate that he gets.:hat

MJ had Pippen who's one of the 50'st greatest players...plus better shooters and defenders than Kobe. All you've done is give me more meaningless drivel by pettifogging the issue.

You Can't Handle The Truth. :lmao

[Phillip]

:hat

MJ had Pippen who's one of the 50'st greatest players...plus better shooters and defenders than Kobe. All you've done is give me more meaningless drivel by pettifogging the issue.

You Can't Handle The Truth. :lmao

:sleep

[Leetonidas]

:hat

MJ had Pippen who's one of the 50'st greatest players...plus better shooters and defenders than Kobe. All you've done is give me more meaningless drivel by pettifogging the issue.

You Can't Handle The Truth. :lmao

Shaquille O'Neal