For those who hate Tony and Manu playing summers for their NT's

[GSH]

I'm one of the fans who never liked Tony and Manu playing summers for their NT's. I know that a lot of the international fans here get angry about that attitude, and say that we don't treat American players the same way. I always said that playing once (maaaybe twice) in the Olympics is one thing... but playing every summer is something else again. Not many international fans appreciated the difference.

So here's a couple of articles talking about Kevin Durant playing in not one, but two different summer leagues. What do you think? Especially those of you who, like me, have griped about Tony and Manu playing (and getting injured) in summer ball? What would you think of one of our American-born Spurs were out playing in leagues like this over the summer? Is it the same, or a totally different situation? Is it no big deal because they aren't "real" games, and they don't also have a bunch of hard practices? Or is it worse because playing with a bunch of amateurs gives more of a chance for injury? If he's just keeping his game sharp, then isn't that what Tony and Manu are doing? Can you give a pass to this, and still bitch about those guys playing for their NT's?

I'll hold off on my own opinion for now, in hopes that there will be a few serious replies.

http://allball.blogs.nba.com/2011/06/09/kevin-durant-has-no-offseason/
http://allball.blogs.nba.com/2011/06/20/kevin-durant-star-of-nba-offseason/
OCJwoEHRU_A

[phyzik]

Olympics and World games I can understand compeeting in once or twice.

More than that is inexcusable.

Just like any other job, you are being payed to show up on time and functional for work. I would have been fired 3 times over if I was Manu or Tony at my job..... especially if I came back unable to work after 3 months of off time.

I dont give a shit what anyone else thinks, my opinion is right, your is not unless you agree with me.

[DesignatedT]

I think it's fine until a certain age tbh. Or until you start to have problems and start jeopardizing games for the team that is paying the bills. Especially in Manu's case. Being injured 4 straight seasons now should be a sign that he shouldn't play anymore, and if he never had any problems with health during the past due to national play then I'm sure nobody would have any objection for him playing. Same goes for Durant, until it's proved that he can't handle playing summers and is hurting OKCs chances it won't be a big deal.

It's the exact reason Tony hasn't taken as much heat as Manu when it comes to summer play imo. Other then the fractured hand a couple years ago it hasn't really affected him or the Spurs. In Manu's case it has affected the Spurs almost every single time he decides to play summers.

[Cane]

Depends on the player's age, style of play, role, and the player's stage of development. Tony and Manu have to play like MVP's for their team and they routinely sacrifice their body on the court. Most Team USA's are stacked with talent and that experience alongside veteran stars is great for a young player.

Some skills like decision making, leadership, court vision, etc. require game experience. Durant needs to become a more aggressive player and a better overall playmaker and the best way to do that is to play. Imo he became a better leader and player as he led Team USA to the Gold not too long ago. Spurs like George Hill stayed in shape through basketball camps and playing games even in Australia in the past offseason IIRC.

I'm fine with young players improving through playing basketball in the offseason unless they're injury prone and they have to carry the team, ex: Yao Ming.

[Hooks]

Manu and Parker are a lot different than almost all of the other guys that play during the summer. They both sacrifice their body with their style of play. Guys like Dirk, Gasol, Durant, Scola, etc. are nothing like them, their style of play doesn't require them to draw as much contact as they do. Parker and Manu are always hitting the floor, whenever they drive it in they're almost guaranteed to get hit hard.

They play basketball nearly all year long, that really takes a lot out of a guy, it's just not good for your body both physically and mentally. Not only does it leave them more injury prone as the season goes on but it leaves them fatigued once the playoffs come by. That's why I don't want them to play for their NT.

[ego]

Olympics and World games I can understand compeeting in once or twice.

More than that is inexcusable.

Just like any other job, you are being payed to show up on time and functional for work.

Above Job and MONEY, there is your COUNTRY. That' all !

[mathbzh]

Manu, Tony have always been very clear about there will to play for their NT.
The Spurs knew that but still proposed them big contracts.

They have the right to play for Argentina or France... if it is important for them, who are we to judge them.

Now, it's up to them to be wise and to know when to take some rest.

About summer league, clearly this is nothing competitive so I don't think there is a problem. At the slightest alert KD will probably just get out of the game.

[eric365]

Olympics and World games I can understand compeeting in once or twice.

More than that is inexcusable.

Just like any other job, you are being payed to show up on time and functional for work. I would have been fired 3 times over if I was Manu or Tony at my job..... especially if I came back unable to work after 3 months of off time.

I dont give a shit what anyone else thinks, my opinion is right, your is not unless you agree with me.

It's easy when you play for the USA to go only one or twice to the Olympics or World games. You are almost sure to have the gold medal while playing less than 30 minutes per game

Internationnal players have to play every summer to get a chance to win one gold medal and it's not even sure.
And if they don't go, there is not 30+ other players able to win it all anyway. If they don't go, their NT have no chance at all

And you can talk about job, work etc... but there is a contract and the NBA rules. Players are respecting theirs contracts and the NBA rules

[baseline bum]

I don't like what Durant's doing at all. Anyone who has been a Spurs fan since the early 90s should remember a summer injury that makes Tony's and Manu's look like child's play. Terry Cummings blowing out his knee in a summer game in 1992 was a really tough blow to the team. For anyone who doesn't remember, Cummings was a guy who'd give you 18-22 points and 8 boards a game and he was still in his prime when the injury happened. He had a nice jumper and really complemented David well in the offense. His injury took him from close to allstar level to complete bench scrub, and the Spurs had to replace him by pushing Antoine Carr into a starting role, signing JR Reid, and finally trading Elliott for Rodman. Cummings still probably had 3 maybe 4 strong years left in him.

[ploto]

Some of these guys have to play in the summer for their teams to have even a chance to try to qualify for the Worlds or the Olympics. It is not like they can take 3 summers off and just show up the year of the Olympics. Players will play basketball, and the games themselves really are not a great concern to me. It is the teams that have run them down through their practice schedules that concern me.

[mathbzh]

I don't like what Durant's doing at all. Anyone who has been a Spurs fan since the early 90s should remember a summer injury that makes Tony's and Manu's look like child's play. Terry Cummings blowing out his knee in a summer game in 1992 was a really tough blow to the team. For anyone who doesn't remember, Cummings was a guy who'd give you 18-22 points and 8 boards a game and he was still in his prime when the injury happened. He had a nice jumper and really complemented David well in the offense. His injury took him from close to allstar level to complete bench scrub, and the Spurs had to replace him by pushing Antoine Carr into a starting role, signing JR Reid, and finally trading Elliott for Rodman. Cummings still probably had 3 maybe 4 strong years left in him.

He could have blown is knee in a training camp, a pick-up game, an NBA game... players must be careful if they play in summer games but they can't stop playing for months.

[ohmwrecker]

He could have blown is knee in a training camp, a pick-up game, an NBA game... players must be careful if they play in summer games but they can't stop playing for months.

Basketball players play basketball. Injuries can happen anywhere. Manu did not play with his NT last summer and he still got injured. Manu and Tony both committed to coming into last season fresh and healthy. It resulted in 61 wins and a first round exit. Playing in the summer might slightly affect stamina for some players, but in most cases it's pretty inconsequential. You definitely aren't going to convince a basketball player to not play basketball. It's a waste of time.

[temujin]

I give two answers, pick the one you prefer.

1) The world has some 6 billions people. 0.3 billions are US citizens, 5.7 are not.
For those that are not, and are involved in some professional team sports, playing for their NT matters. Seriously/visibly/mildly, pick your adverb, but it matters.
Playing for the NT is allowed by NBA rules
So they play, whenever possible, even if that bturns out not to be very smart.

2) What is more dangerous, playing 7/8 games in a WC or Olympics, or playing the 82nd, very last, totally irrelevant game, just days before finally playing some REAL basketball?
Ask Ginobili.

[ElNono]

It's certainly a great cop-out for when the team doesn't do well, or one of these guys ends up injured... "Oh, if he didn't play in the summer he would be fresh/healthy/focused/etc".

[Fireball]

I was very happy that Tony and Manu did not play for their NTs last year, because everything should come together for one more shot at the championship. As the chances to win a title are not getting better this season I think Manu and Tony should have the opportunity to help their teams qualify for the Olympics.

Also, as a teammate in the NT I would not like always do the dirty work (play the qualifiers) and then have the NBA superstars coming to play in the Olympics or World Games.

Very annoying is the fact that a lockout in the NBA also prevents the players to play for their NTs because of insurance problems. If we have a lockout, the summer will even be more boring because I cannot watch Tony (with a very good French team) and Dirk Nowitzki compete for the European title ...

All in all every player has the right to play, but with age should come wisdom and esp. Manu should recognize that his body cannot even take a whole NBA season anymore.

[Mel_13]

IMO, the issue is settled with regard to Tony and Manu. Both players made it perfectly clear to the Spurs that they intended to resume play with their NTs after taking off the summer of 2010. They did this before signing their extensions. The Spurs made the choice to offer the extensions knowing that Tony and Manu would try to help their NTs get to the 2012 Olympics. The team had other options with both players. They chose to keep them with all that entailed. End of story.

[ElNono]

All in all every player has the right to play, but with age should come wisdom and esp. Manu should recognize that his body cannot even take a whole NBA season anymore.

Not so sure that's really true... he did acknowledge he couldn't keep up with Int play and NBA 2 or 3 seasons in a row, and that's why he parked his ass last summer. I mean, he played the whole NBA season this time around and his elbow injury had nothing to do with stamina or any such thing.

[GSH]

Personally, I think Durant ought to have 100% of his ass kicked for what he's doing. Those are full speed, full contact games. Throwing down acrobatic dunks in an uncontrolled environment (including all the spectators hanging out just past the end line) is an invitation to an injury. Add to that any one of those guys who decides he's tired of getting torched by KD that day, and clothslines him on the way up? If I were an OKC fan, or season ticket holder, I wouldn't like it. If he actually got hurt doing it, I would really be pissed.

I don't question that he has the "right" to do it. Allen Iverson had a "right" to chunk up 20+ FGA per game; Stephon Marbury had a "right" to publicly call out his coaches. They were both lousy teammates because of it. They did what they had a right to do, and said screw everybody else. But to be a really good member of a really good team, you have to set some priorities. On a great team, everybody sacrifices.

Don't laugh. You have the "right" to get hammered the night before a big presentation, and to come in with a hangover. But don't expect your teammates to pat you on the back for it. And the first time you blow a deal because of it, expect to be fired. When you commit to a team (and a job) there are some things you just don't do.

Some of the arguments in favor of playing summers for a NT make sense. I actually questioned myself about my own opinion. But at least I can say I'm not being hypocritical about it. Durant just went down several notches in my mind. He gets no more slack than any international player - at least from me. He's the best player on their team, which means he's risking everyone's season, not just his own.


Not so sure that's really true... he did acknowledge he couldn't keep up with Int play and NBA 2 or 3 seasons in a row, and that's why he parked his ass last summer. I mean, he played the whole NBA season this time around and his elbow injury had nothing to do with stamina or any such thing.

And, yes, give Tony and Manu credit for slowing down the offseason play for the sake of their team.

[lefty]

Above Job and MONEY, there is your COUNTRY. That' all !
This

Fuck the haters


Nobody here was complaining when Kobe & Co were raping the rest of the World in 2008

[mathbzh]

When they're young it isn't a problem. Ryan Richards, Cory Joseph, Davis Bertans, etc. They can all play if they want. But when they hit the later parts of their careers and their bodies aren't what they once were, then the NBA should take priority with the exception of Olympics and world games.
This is the issue. Germany without Dirk, France without TP, Diaw, Batum... would not make it to the world games or Olympics (even with them the qualification is anything but easy).

Edit:
And about Parker, people should consider that he has won about everything he could in the NBA (rings, finals MVP, All-Star, All-NBA) but has everything to prove with the French NT.
A great result in the Olympics would be considered a huge achievement here in France and would make a lot for his notoriety.

[Fireball]

Not so sure that's really true... he did acknowledge he couldn't keep up with Int play and NBA 2 or 3 seasons in a row, and that's why he parked his ass last summer. I mean, he played the whole NBA season this time around and his elbow injury had nothing to do with stamina or any such thing.

Absolutely agree regarding the injury, but I think one could see that Manu was getting tired after the first 50 games of last season. His production dropped and Tony took over some of the scoring. Therefore, IMO 82 games are a little too much for Manu already. On the other hand we know what happens if he has too much rest. It took him half of the 2009-10 season to get back to his usual self.

[ElNono]

Absolutely agree regarding the injury, but I think one could see that Manu was getting tired after the first 50 games of last season. His production dropped and Tony took over some of the scoring. Therefore, IMO 82 games are a little too much for Manu already. On the other hand we know what happens if he has too much rest. It took him half of the 2009-10 season to get back to his usual self.

Manu is really streaky, and that's what you get as you age and you take more shots than drives. He actually took a season high in 3 pointers, IIRC. He was hitting a lot of those early in the season, and I think that has a lot more to do with the perception that he was much better early in the season. He actually started to come back to earth with his shooting around Dec/January, IIRC.
Not saying that tired legs are not a factor. But I think that's sometimes overplayed. For example, I think both Tim and Manu have a much harder time with physical play now, something that's more prevalent in the last month of the season and the playoffs.

[TMTTRIO]

Well if Tony's right and the Spurs have no shot at for a championship then why not let Manu finish out his career trying to win another medal. Might as well. For those who say international competition is bad, Manu really developed and had his best season after winning the gold medal. Injuries happen.

[kaji157]

Lionel Messi is the bigges sport global Icon.
When Barcelona denies him to the Argentina National Team we can argue, while he is playing, anyone below him, in importance, will be an exception and not the common rule.

The reality here is that United States is the only country that believes that their tournaments are more important than International Competition, this is a discussion, i think, that has to be within the fans on the states, because it is only a discussion in your society and not worldwide.

[kaji157]

Not so sure that's really true... he did acknowledge he couldn't keep up with Int play and NBA 2 or 3 seasons in a row, and that's why he parked his ass last summer. I mean, he played the whole NBA season this time around and his elbow injury had nothing to do with stamina or any such thing.

Same as his ankle sprain in 2002 had nothing to do with stamina, or Tony´s broken hand which had nothing to do with stamina.

So, all in all, Manu had 2 injuries regarding stamina issues, well not really stamina but overplaying, one with argentina in his left foot (torn ligament) and one with the Spurs (stress fracture) both after long periods of rest.

[mathbzh]

Lionel Messi is the bigges sport global Icon.
When Barcelona denies him to the Argentina National Team we can argue, while he is playing, anyone below him, in importance, will be an exception and not the common rule.

Barcelona can't denie him to the Argentina National Team. In soccer, if a player refuse a selection he can be fined and suspended.

I know the French team used that to "force" Makelele to play with the NT when he wanted to retire from international competition.
Back then Mourinho (former Chelsea coach) said "Makelele is not a football player, Makelele is a slave".

[Mel_13]

Lionel Messi is the bigges sport global Icon.
When Barcelona denies him to the Argentina National Team we can argue, while he is playing, anyone below him, in importance, will be an exception and not the common rule.

The reality here is that United States is the only country that believes that their tournaments are more important than International Competition, this is a discussion, i think, that has to be within the fans on the states, because it is only a discussion in your society and not worldwide.

smh

Normal procedures in international soccer have nothing, whatsoever, to do with international basketball. This comparison gets brought up every time this subject is raised and it's just completely irrelevant.

[GSH]

The reality here is that United States is the only country that believes that their tournaments are more important than International Competition, this is a discussion, i think, that has to be within the fans on the states, because it is only a discussion in your society and not worldwide.


So your point is that you think your opinion is right, and our opinion is wrong.

Once again - your definition of "arrogant" is anyone who won't admit that your way is the correct (and only) way. As in, "The arrogant bastards actually dare to question our superiority".




And about Parker, people should consider that he has won about everything he could in the NBA (rings, finals MVP, All-Star, All-NBA) but has everything to prove with the French NT.


If it's that important to him, he can always retire from the NBA and pursue his passion full-time. Wouldn't that give the French NT the best chance of winning Olympic gold? Let him put his money where his mouth is. If it's really that important, commit to it and pay the price.

This is a cultural thing that obviously isn't going to change. You aren't even equipped to understand the argument that the millions of dollars the players receive should come with some measure of loyalty and commitment on their part. It's like arguing with a fucking Martian.

[OoOoOoOoOoO]

It's easy when you play for the USA to go only one or twice to the Olympics or World games. You are almost sure to have the gold medal while playing less than 30 minutes per game

Internationnal players have to play every summer to get a chance to win one gold medal and it's not even sure.
And if they don't go, there is not 30+ other players able to win it all anyway. If they don't go, their NT have no chance at all

And you can talk about job, work etc... but there is a contract and the NBA rules. Players are respecting theirs contracts and the NBA rules

Agreed... plus they're making international basketball more competitive, and thus making it more popular in other countries. If they feel it's an important thing to do, who are we to judge them?

[patos]

I'm one of the fans who never liked Tony playing.

me neither but i also agree with that durant video that dunk is very good

[mathbzh]

This is a cultural thing that obviously isn't going to change. You aren't even equipped to understand the argument that the millions of dollars the players receive should come with some measure of loyalty and commitment on their part. It's like arguing with a fucking Martian.

That's rude :lol

I perfectly understand your argument. Are you equipped to understand mine (don't worry I don't ask you to agree with it)?

I am not even a big fan of international games and somehow I would prefer Manu and Tony to play only in the NBA.

I am just saying that they must not be blamed for that. They are allowed to play in these games and have some good reason to do it.

Now about your argument:
First, the millions of dollars are not given to player. Parker and Ginobili receive about what they would receive playing for any other team in the league. The fact Parker and Ginobili would play for their NT was known by the Spurs when they signed them. It comes as a part of the package and we have nothing to say about it.

Should so much money come with some loyalty and commitment? Certainly!

Still, it worth mentioning the NBA is a league where player can be traded at any time, where a team can be relocated into another city no matter what the fan base says.
I don't know if the Spurs were really shopping Parker. but if they did, would you call them disloyal? Despite everything Parker did for the team, I would not, because this is how the NBA works. The same goes for international play. Player have the right and the motivation to do it... and loyalty has nothing to do with it.

The Martian is done with that tread. No matter what you think the Martian win. Players have the right to play in international competition, they will do it and NBA teams will continue to pay them millions.
As Lebron could say: "Because at the end of the day, all the people that were rooting against FIBA, at the end of the day they have to wake up tomorrow and have the same life that they had before they woke up today. "