So, who sides with the owners and who sides with the players?

[ElNono]

The lockout is pretty much here. Who do you side with?

[DeadlyDynasty]

It's hard to side with the owners when most of them perpetuated the current problem.

[DazedAndConfused]

I was just about to create this post, shows you how fucking slow the NBA offseason chatter is if me and Nono post the same shit...

[ElNono]

Wouldn't this be addressing such problem by putting hard limits on what the owners themselves can do?

[ElNono]

I was just about to create this post, shows you how fucking slow the NBA offseason chatter is if me and Nono post the same shit...

:toast

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

It's hard to side with the owners when most of them perpetuated the current problem.
This. I know teams are losing money, and I know teams can't afford the current NBA's soft salary cap rules with MLEs and stuff, but when teams like the Bucks have no hesitation using MLEs and going over the cap, it's hard to side with the owners.

[Leetonidas]

The owners are the dumbfucks giving out massive contracts to shit players like Drew Gooden and Hedo, fuck them

[Leetonidas]

Although making contracts partially-guaranteed would do wonders for the game imo, if players knew they could be cut for being Eddy Curry then they'd be busting their asses a lot more out there

[DazedAndConfused]

I more or less side with the players on this one. The owners are looking for a bailout after being severely irresponsible with their money and handing ludicrous contracts to POS players like Luke Walton. They deserve to pay for their mistakes.

That being said, I think both sides will have to give a little for a settlement to be reached. The players will give in eventually no matter what the situation looks like because in the end they need the money more than the owners do.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

If the owners pull off a miracle and get a $45,000,000 salary cap, there's no way the NBA couldn't switch to a partially guaranteed salary system. There's no way teams could survive with all the $5,000,000 deadweight contracts floating around now if there was a 45M cap.

[NRHector]

"yeah NBA players make alot but we spend alot" Patrick Ewing

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

:lol I wish I was a fly on the wall during these negotiations, the owners are gonna look so stupid

Sarver and his group of brash morons who have no business owning a team: ":madrun there shouldn't be an MLE :madrun, it favors the big market teams with more spending power :madrun!"

The players' union: "Yeah, you hate the MLE sooooooooooo much you just gave Channing Frye a $30,000,000 MLE contract :lol"

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

The idea of the hard cap isn't really that outrageous (the NFL has it), what makes it dumb is the people proposing it are owners who have taken full advantage of a soft cap in the past and have shown no ability to spend responsibly.

[ElNono]

:lol

I also wonder what Sterling is doing in these meetings? I can't think of a biggest leech in the league than him. He turns every player and picks into some sort of cash.
The only thing I can imagine is that he's having an auction among fellow owners to see who's going to give him more picks and cash for Blake Griffin.

[baseline bum]

You deserve to lose money if you throw huge contracts at Drew Gooden, John Salmons, and trade for Corey Maggette. And pay Michael Redd $18 million on top of that? Even minus injuries he was never worth anything close to that. Then there is drafting Yi.

[Nathan89]

Although making contracts partially-guaranteed would do wonders for the game imo, if players knew they could be cut for being Eddy Curry then they'd be busting their asses a lot more out there

Solid post.

[Nathan89]

I don't know the financials of the teams but if many of the teams are losing money then something needs to change. Blame the owners if you want but they have to do something to try to be competitive in the NBA.

[Leetonidas]

You deserve to lose money if you throw huge contracts at Drew Gooden, John Salmons, and trade for Corey Maggette. And pay Michael Redd $18 million on top of that? Even minus injuries he was never worth anything close to that. Then there is drafting Yi.

Fuck, when you put it like that... :lmao

Feel bad for them, they looked good going into the 2010 playoffs and looked like they could fight for a middle seed the next year but Salmons regressed and Drew Gooden is Drew Gooden

[baseline bum]

Non-guaranteed contracts are a joke. If my deal isn't guaranteed, no way I'm diving for loose balls if I'm a talented player. No way I'm relentlessly attacking the lane. I'll be Vince Carter and jack up jump shots until my contract year. Why should I risk my career knowing my team will just cut me and leave me with nothing should I tear an ACL?

[dunkman]

There are various teams that are well managed, are good in basketball, sometimes own the facility or are in big market and still lose money, it seems that the system is broken and the players earn too much for most of the teams.

However, despite losing money, the teams usually became more valuable with time. The Wizards were sold for +$500M. So if an owner keep the team, there are chances to recover the investment and make good money at the end of the road.

[Nathan89]

Non-guaranteed contracts are a joke. If my deal isn't guaranteed, no way I'm diving for loose balls if I'm a talented player. No way I'm relentlessly attacking the lane. I'll be Vince Carter and jack up jump shots until my contract year. Why should I risk my career knowing my team will just cut me and leave me with nothing should I tear an ACL?

How many ACL injuries did the NBA have this year?

If Vince Carter had a non-guaranteed contract he would have been force to sign a more reasonable contract years ago. Also giving him much more incentive to practice and workout to stay at the top of his game. Making him more deserving of his contract and improving the quality of the game.

If players stop attacking their value decreases and with that so will their contracts. A great player would turn into just a really good role player if he didn't play hard. Meanwhile really good role players would play as hard as possible to get a bigger slice of the pie. Injuries overall do not happen often enough to prevent players from playing hard. The incentive of a player contract changing at the end of the year would IMO increase the quality of basketball on the court.

[mathbzh]

I more or less side with the players on this one. The owners are looking for a bailout after being severely irresponsible with their money and handing ludicrous contracts to POS players like Luke Walton. They deserve to pay for their mistakes.

That being said, I think both sides will have to give a little for a settlement to be reached. The players will give in eventually no matter what the situation looks like because in the end they need the money more than the owners do.
This

110 M$ for Rashard Lewis says it all

[Cane]

I side with the god damn fans. And screw the current system. Ideally if a player starts to turn into shit then his paycheck and job security should reflect it tbh. That should go both ways as well; if a player starts to emerge then they should earn more. Also something has to be done with shitbag owners like Sterling but good luck on that. :depressed

It seems like the owners are going to win this battle the only questions are by how much and when. Owners can take the damage to see significant changes go their way, players will likely cave in before the season gets cancelled, and the fans lose the longer it goes on. :bang

[baseline bum]

How many of you would bitch if a player blows up and decides to hold out when signed to a cheap contract? I would have loved to have seen the reaction if Tony Parker held out after being paid $850,000 to be the starting point guard on a championship team. Or if Manu Ginobili decided the $1.4 million he was getting in 04 wasn't anything close to his market value after his clutch play off the bench in winning the title the previous playoffs. What's the point of even having a contract if it's non-binding?

[baseline bum]

If you don't want teams taking risk with longterm deals, just get rid of multi-year contracts period, and leave free agency alone so a player is free to go to whoever values him most for the next season. None of this franchise player tag shit to inhibit player movement.

[Sportstudi]

Older article (http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/6649101/dizzying-highs-terrifying-lows), but there you have the explanation of how squandering $300 million :lol



Unlike the NFL, they opened the books and showed everyone exactly how much: $300 million. Why are they losing money?

1. The economy tanked and fans don't have the same disposable income.
2. The secondary ticket market lessened the need to buy season tickets; you can just cherry-pick 10 regular-season games online and skip the other 31.
3. We're slowly learning that fans would rather stay home, watch sports on their crystal-clear HD widescreen and surf the Internet over hauling their asses to a stadium, then pay for (overpriced) parking, (overpriced) mediocre food and drinks, and (overpriced) mediocre tickets.
4. Every state-of-the-art arena built in the past 15 years was built to accommodate as many fans as possible, when actually we're learning this decade that things might need to shift the other way: You need fewer seats, you need as many good seats as possible, and you need to figure out a way to engage fans who aren't close enough to the court (like the Cowboys did with their obnoxiously brilliant video screen).
5. Typing this sentence makes me feel like I'm typing the words, "Michael Cera just beat up one of the Klitschko Brothers," but it's absolutely true: Billy Hunter beat David Stern on the last two labor deals.

You know how I know this? Because the players made $2.1 billion dollars this year … and again the owners lost $300 million. Hold on, I have their $300 million right here: Vince Carter ($17.5m), Richard Hamilton ($12.5m), Baron Davis ($13m), Jose Calderon ($9m), Gilbert Arenas ($17.7m), Rashard Lewis ($19.6m), Michael Redd ($18.3m), Matt Carroll ($4.3m), Mike Dunleavy ($10.6m), Jason Kapono ($6.6m), Andrei Kirilenko ($17.8m), Marvin Williams ($7.2m), Jared Jeffries ($6.8m), Vlad Radmanovic ($6.8m), Hedo Turkoglu ($10.2m), Boris Diaw ($9m), Marcus Banks ($4.8m), Joel Pryzbilla ($7.4m), TJ Ford (8.5m), Darius Songalia ($4.8m), Andris Biedrins ($9m), Yao Ming ($17.7m), Sam Dalembert ($13.4m), Memo Okur ($9.9m), DeSagana Diop ($6.4m), Jermaine O'Neal ($5.7m), Eddy Curry ($11.2m), Dan Gadzuric ($7.2m), Troy Murphy ($11.9m). Boom! Everyone on that list ranges from "violently overpaid" to "brazenly stole money and hasn't been arrested yet."

[Koolaid_Man]

How many of you would bitch if a player blows up and decides to hold out when signed to a cheap contract? I would have loved to have seen the reaction if Tony Parker held out after being paid $850,000 to be the starting point guard on a championship team. Or if Manu Ginobili decided the $1.4 million he was getting in 04 wasn't anything close to his market value after his clutch play off the bench in winning the title the previous playoffs. What's the point of even having a contract if it's non-binding?


It seems as if my good influence is rubbing off on you...you're tearing the pussy up in this thread :lol....I guess I will have to remove your name from my excel spreadsheet 'Always A Dumb Fuck' category...

[Koolaid_Man]

If owners get to non-gauranteed and a hard cap NBA basketball will turn into the WNBA real talk. Kobe will still be Kobe because some niggas (Rose, Durant, Blake, etc) would play ball in the rain, sleet, snow, or mud. Most players though will fall off....no more Rondo's, Iggy's, or Bosh's...say goodbye to great defensive players and teams. The owners created this mess and the players should play hardball. Someone idiot said the players need the money more....but the reality is if you're a business owner you chance to lose way more by virtue of your total earnings / potential. The owners say they're prepared to sit out 1 yr...the players should raise the stakes dramatically by at least "saying" we're prepared to sit out two years if they owners think they're going to force our hand. 99 % of the players got enough money for their lifestyle and 99% of them didn't have shit before the league so they can just go back to their roots. The players have enough to sustain them. I know some players will hurt but the majority should rule.

I feel bad for Dr. Buss most of all. I know for an almost fact ;-) that he's one of a few owners that may side with the players. He has a great business model, he pays luxury taxes ( which also helps out smaller market teams) and he has lucrative cable deals which keeps is business lucrative...and what's sad is that some owners want some od his money by virtue of more revenue sharing....I don't think lower market teams should get no more than a 30% share of revenue. Because just by virtue of Kobe being so dam good they Lakers are already helping them to sell tickets in their home arena. Same with the Heat. I don't care how good other players are the LA fans aren't buying season tickets to see them play...they're buying tickets to see the Lakeshow kick their ass. If they're is no market for this sport in your city...then you don't need a team...and you get eaten up by contraction. Happens in the real business world ere day...only the strongest survive.

[joshdaboss]

The players should just be thankful they aren't flipping burgers, tbh.

[dunkman]

The Knicks make even more money than the Lakers, the third most lucrative team are the Bulls. Coincidentally the 3 biggest metropolitan areas in the US. It's not rocket science, big market = good earnings. Even Sterling can make money in LA, with his farce of NBA team.

The things turn difficult to run a team in an 1.5-2M metropolitan area. On one hand, the team must be competitive, otherwise they won't make money on the gates. On the other hand the players get paid a very significant % of the incomes.

While the Knicks spend around 30% of their income on the players, small market team must put 70% of their income for their players. In the end, all small market teams will relocate in bigger metropolitan areas, as will do the Kings.

And tbh Kobe isn't nor ever was the primary reason why the Lakers had success in '00-'10 s, just check his FG% in the finals and some decisive games.

[LkrFan]

I side with the owners - fuck it. How in he hell can 13/8 be worth $21M? That's some bullshit. :downspin:

[Leetonidas]

Vince Carter ($17.5m), Richard Hamilton ($12.5m), Baron Davis ($13m), Jose Calderon ($9m), Gilbert Arenas ($17.7m), Rashard Lewis ($19.6m), Michael Redd ($18.3m), Matt Carroll ($4.3m), Mike Dunleavy ($10.6m), Jason Kapono ($6.6m), Andrei Kirilenko ($17.8m), Marvin Williams ($7.2m), Jared Jeffries ($6.8m), Vlad Radmanovic ($6.8m), Hedo Turkoglu ($10.2m), Boris Diaw ($9m), Marcus Banks ($4.8m), Joel Pryzbilla ($7.4m), TJ Ford (8.5m), Darius Songalia ($4.8m), Andris Biedrins ($9m), Yao Ming ($17.7m), Sam Dalembert ($13.4m), Memo Okur ($9.9m), DeSagana Diop ($6.4m), Jermaine O'Neal ($5.7m), Eddy Curry ($11.2m), Dan Gadzuric ($7.2m), Troy Murphy ($11.9m).

:wow

Only Yao doesn't belong because if he was healthy he'd be shitting on any C in the league but holy shit how the fuck is Mike Dunleavy getting 10 million????

[Leetonidas]

Vince Carter ($17.5m), Richard Hamilton ($12.5m), Baron Davis ($13m), Jose Calderon ($9m), Gilbert Arenas ($17.7m), Rashard Lewis ($19.6m), Michael Redd ($18.3m), Matt Carroll ($4.3m), Mike Dunleavy ($10.6m), Jason Kapono ($6.6m), Andrei Kirilenko ($17.8m), Marvin Williams ($7.2m), Jared Jeffries ($6.8m), Vlad Radmanovic ($6.8m), Hedo Turkoglu ($10.2m), Boris Diaw ($9m), Marcus Banks ($4.8m), Joel Pryzbilla ($7.4m), TJ Ford (8.5m), Darius Songalia ($4.8m), Andris Biedrins ($9m), Yao Ming ($17.7m), Sam Dalembert ($13.4m), Memo Okur ($9.9m), DeSagana Diop ($6.4m), Jermaine O'Neal ($5.7m), Eddy Curry ($11.2m), Dan Gadzuric ($7.2m), Troy Murphy ($11.9m).

:wow

Only Yao doesn't belong because if he was healthy he'd be shitting on any C in the league but holy shit how the fuck is Mike Dunleavy getting 10 million????

[Leetonidas]

Kapono making almost 7 million a season :lmao

Dalembert making 13.4 :lmao :lmao :lmao

[boutons_deux]

The players should just be thankful they aren't flipping burgers, tbh.

2/3 are broke 5 years after leaving NBA, was the situation a few years ago.

[redzero]

Only Yao doesn't belong because if he was healthy he'd be shitting on any C in the league but holy shit how the fuck is Mike Dunleavy getting 10 million????

Yao's never healthy, though. At least some of the players on that list contribute in some way.

[Leetonidas]

He makes the Rockets a shitload of money

[redzero]

Yes, that's true. He would make them even more money if he could actually stay on the court.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

If99 % of the players got enough money for their lifestyle and 99% of them didn't have shit before the league so they can just go back to their roots. The players have enough to sustain them. I know some players will hurt but the majority should rule.


No way 99% could handle a work stoppage for a year, much less two. I would question if even a majority of the guys in the league are prepared for such an event despite the fact that this mess has been brewing for a while. Maybe the guys making seven figures can pass around the hat and take up a collection for the lower rung guys, although I wouldn't be surprised if there are just as many guys making 12 million and trying to live a 15 million dollar lifestyle as there are guys making 2 million and living a 5 million dollar lifestyle.

As for the original question I think the owners are right about a lot of the problems facing the league and that the current structure needs an overhaul if the NBA wants to remain viable. However I blame the owners for creating most of those problems. So rather than side with either I will just go with my standard fall back option which is to blame it all on the Inuit people. Stupid igloo lickers.

[buttsR4rebounding]

There are some good owners, but they are at the mercy of idiot owners and very deep pocket owners that drive up players salaries to the point that in order to field a competitive team the good owners have to overspend. A hard cap is the only way to level the playing field and reward the better organizations. A hard cap will actually penalize teams that do not do a good job of player development and just throw more money than anyone else can at the problem (i.e. Dallas and LAL). While I think that many of the owners are idiots I side with competitive basketball and for the long term good of the league the owners must get salaries under control...

[Fabbs]

The players should just be thankful they aren't flipping burgers, tbh.
• Within five years of retirement, an estimated 60% of former NBA players are broke.

• By the time they have been retired for two years, 78% of former NFL players have gone bankrupt or are under financial stress because of joblessness or divorce.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1153364/1/index.htm

[DMC]

• Within five years of retirement, an estimated 60% of former NBA players are broke.

• By the time they have been retired for two years, 78% of former NFL players have gone bankrupt or are under financial stress because of joblessness or divorce.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1153364/1/index.htm

That's beside the point. Most rookies would continue to play as their career progresses for 1 million a year or less, and take money from sponsor contracts. The increased pay rate is stupid. If the owners make more money, that's fine, they take the risks.

If the players want to become millionaires for life, they should concentrate on financial responsibility and get quality agents that seek out lucrative sponsorships.

Role players should not be making big money.