View Full Version : The Phil Jackson Coaching System
Name all the coaches that got their start under Phil Jackson, who have gone on to become successful head coaches in the NBA.
Stalin
06-30-2011, 08:48 PM
5 star thread, will read again, and recommend to family and friends
DUNCANownsKOBE
06-30-2011, 08:53 PM
Not necessarily a good measure of a good head coach. I know I'm using football as an example, but look at the track record Bill Belichick's assistant coaches have had as head coaches (Charlie Weis, Romeo Crennel, Josh McDaniels, Eric Mangini). I don't think those 4 flopping as head coaches does anything to discredit Bill Belichick's coaching ability.
So who are they, these head coaches? I've been trying to find them.
DUNCANownsKOBE
06-30-2011, 09:14 PM
Tbh tho the amount of good/great coaches who have played/coached under Larry Brown is a reason why I view him as the best basketball coach of all time (college or pros).
Bill Self
John Calipari
Mark Turgeon
Gregg Popovich
Alvin Gentry
George Karl (I think)
Bob Hill
Doc Rivers
I know there are more. No way it's just a coincidence all of those guys have played/coached under Brown.
Tbh tho the amount of good/great coaches who have played/coached under Larry Brown is a reason why I view him as the best basketball coach of all time (college or pros).
Bill Self
John Calipari
Mark Turgeon
Gregg Popovich
Alvin Gentry
George Karl (I think)
Bob Hill
Doc Rivers
I know there are more. No way it's just a coincidence all of those guys have played/coached under Brown.
Brown is from the Dean Smith system.
Still looking for the answer to the original post.
DUNCANownsKOBE
06-30-2011, 09:32 PM
Still looking for the answer to the original post.
By no means do I have an answer :lol, I was just saying it's not necessarily a reflection on Jackson for not producing any quality head coaches. As I've said before, how LA looks next year with Mike Brown will say a lot about Jackson.
Off the top of my head I cant recall any of his assistants under the Lakers going on to become head coaches period, much less good ones. You never even really hear any of them being highly touted by other teams. Someone correct me if Im wrong.
Not sure about his Chicago days since I was alot younger then.
edit-rambis who failed in minny is the only one i can think of
By no means do I have an answer :lol, I was just saying it's not necessarily a reflection on Jackson for not producing any quality head coaches. As I've said before, how LA looks next year with Mike Brown will say a lot about Jackson.
Not really. LA was swept in the 2nd round. If Brown cannot get any farther with an older group, how does that say anything about him? Kobe runs the team anyhow and we all know Mike Brown isn't going to usurp the star's power.
Phil's system is difficult, and I think assistants might not want to buy into it as a template for their future success, whereas Dean Smith's system is all over the NBA, with a few hybrids here and there.
Still, a coach who does not impart his "skill" to another is, imo, not a great coach. He's got a decent scheme, ala Tex Winters, but a great coach is a great teacher, and yet he hasn't taught anyone anything tbh. His players do not go on to become good coaches. His assistants don't go on to become good coaches. He's had the best players in the game and much of his success can be attributed to that. Kurt Rambis cannot do shit with the triangle in Minnesota (couldn't do, he's gone now).
Phil has the ability to lead though, that's unquestionable. He gets results from his team and from his bosses.
Indazone
06-30-2011, 09:52 PM
If you give other coaches the players that Phil had with the Lakers or the Bulls, I dare say you'd have a few other "Championship" calibur coaches.
DUNCANownsKOBE
06-30-2011, 09:59 PM
Not really. LA was swept in the 2nd round. If Brown cannot get any farther with an older group, how does that say anything about him? Kobe runs the team anyhow and we all know Mike Brown isn't going to usurp the star's power.
Phil's system is difficult, and I think assistants might not want to buy into it as a template for their future success, whereas Dean Smith's system is all over the NBA, with a few hybrids here and there.
Still, a coach who does not impart his "skill" to another is, imo, not a great coach. He's got a decent scheme, ala Tex Winters, but a great coach is a great teacher, and yet he hasn't taught anyone anything tbh. His players do not go on to become good coaches. His assistants don't go on to become good coaches. He's had the best players in the game and much of his success can be attributed to that. Kurt Rambis cannot do shit with the triangle in Minnesota (couldn't do, he's gone now).
Phil has the ability to lead though, that's unquestionable. He gets results from his team and from his bosses.
If Brown gets them the same place Phil does, it means Phil couldn't do much better than an average coach.
If Brown gets them the same place Phil does, it means Phil couldn't do much better than an average coach.
Then it's settled. Brown actually won a game in the 2nd round. :toast
Then it's settled. Brown actually won a game in the 2nd round. :toast
The thing about Phil Jackson is that either a team makes it to the Finals or flames out early; he can't do jack with only ONE star-level player.
1991-93: won it all with Jordan/Pippen
1994: lost to the Knicks in 7 without Jordan
1995: second round exit WITH Jordan returning mid-season
1996-98: won it all with Jordan/Pippen/Rodman
2000-02: won it all with Shaq/Kobe
2003: second round exit with the same core, Duncan was beasting
2004: lost in the Finals to Larry Brown's Pistons
2006-07: first round exits with Kobe alone
2008: lost in the Finals to Doc Rivers' Celtics
2009-10: won it all with Kobe/Pau
2011: second round sweep
ElNono
07-01-2012, 08:32 PM
Kurt Rambis coached the Wolves for two seasons. Don't think you can call that "successful", but there's a guy that was assistant under Jackson and went to coach another team.
mavs>spurs
07-01-2012, 08:35 PM
Then it's settled. Brown actually won a game in the 2nd round. :toast
:wow
ElNono
07-01-2012, 08:36 PM
Jim Cleamons was another assistant under Jackson that went to coach the Mavs in 96-97...
The thing with Jackson is that he had the same assistants for a long time. Hamblen has been with him since the Chicago days.
James Naismith (inventor of basketball)
coached Phog Allen at Kansas
coached Dean Smith at Kansas
coached Larry Brown at UNC
was assisted by Gregg Popovich
DAYUMMM
jeebus
07-01-2012, 08:48 PM
5 star thread, will read again, and recommend to family and friends
pass1st
07-01-2012, 09:50 PM
It boils down to...
Phil Jackson: 13
Pop: 4
:lol resorting to the Culburn schtick as a defense
A coach is a teacher. Phil is no teacher. There will be no "Phil Jackson Coaching System" since he was using Tex Winters' offense to begin with. However, the league is full of Pop and Larry proteges.
pass1st
07-01-2012, 09:53 PM
:lol resorting to the Culburn schtick as a defense
:lolthinking I'd do his shtick and be serious, you've been reaching lately.
:lolthinking I'd do his shtick and be serious, you've been reaching lately.
When was I reaching? This thread is from the beginning of last season.
pass1st
07-01-2012, 09:57 PM
When was I reaching? This thread is from the beginning of last season.
This + http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6004314&postcount=29
Nobody was even acting like LAL would get Dwight :lol
That's funny, I recall several threads about it a few months ago.
Are you saying LAL fans don't feel a sense of entitlement that they should automatically get the best the league has to offer? They pined for Howard, then for CP3. So you wanted the best center in the league and the best PG.
Sounds like I wasn't stretching it tbh.
pass1st
07-01-2012, 10:09 PM
That's funny, I recall several threads about it a few months ago.
You mean before deadline when it seemed like anything could happen? Spurfan were afraid that would happen for some reason.
IIRC, most lakerfans wanted Bynum to stay and get CP3. Even frontrunning pakifuck.
Sure, if you want call the frontrunners fans. Although, the run for Dwight wasn't as popular as you seem to believe. Bynum was very popular and still is, most fans would rather keep him if he continued to be healthy.
dunkman
07-01-2012, 10:17 PM
The thing about Phil Jackson is that either a team makes it to the Finals or flames out early; he can't do jack with only ONE star-level player.
1991-93: won it all with Jordan/Pippen
1994: lost to the Knicks in 7 without Jordan
1995: second round exit WITH Jordan returning mid-season
1996-98: won it all with Jordan/Pippen/Rodman
2000-02: won it all with Shaq/Kobe
2003: second round exit with the same core, Duncan was beasting
2004: lost in the Finals to Larry Brown's Pistons
2006-07: first round exits with Kobe alone
2008: lost in the Finals to Doc Rivers' Celtics
2009-10: won it all with Kobe/Pau
2011: second round sweep
If I recall right he coached the Bulls in 89 and 90 with two WCF's exits. The second one went to 7 games, though.
If I recall right he coached the Bulls in 89 and 90 with two WCF's exits. The second one went to 7 games, though.
I highly doubt the Bulls made it to the WCFs tbh.
whitemamba
07-02-2012, 05:25 PM
The thing about Phil Jackson is that either a team makes it to the Finals or flames out early; he can't do jack with only ONE star-level player.
1991-93: won it all with Jordan/Pippen
1994: lost to the Knicks in 7 without Jordan
1995: second round exit WITH Jordan returning mid-season
1996-98: won it all with Jordan/Pippen/Rodman
2000-02: won it all with Shaq/Kobe
2003: second round exit with the same core, Duncan was beasting
2004: lost in the Finals to Larry Brown's Pistons
2006-07: first round exits with Kobe alone
2008: lost in the Finals to Doc Rivers' Celtics
2009-10: won it all with Kobe/Pau
2011: second round sweep
ok smart guy.. who does it then with a one star player? enlighten me please.
tesseractive
07-02-2012, 05:52 PM
If I recall right he coached the Bulls in 89 and 90 with two WCF's exits. The second one went to 7 games, though.
Collins coached them in '88-89, and was fired after the season. Phil was promoted from assistant to head coach for '89-90, when they indeed took the eventual-champion Pistons to 7 games.
ok smart guy.. who does it then with a one star player? enlighten me please.
Do the zero-star 2004 Pistons count?
ALVAREZ6
07-02-2012, 08:24 PM
I'm pretty sure almost any NBA coach would win multiple titles with prime Kobe and Shaq/unstoppable 7-foot, 350 lb athletic coordinated offensive and defensive dominating monster. And Jordan and Pippen vs. watered down NBA. You can't take away Jackson's accomplishments, but you can't say they're very impressive given the circumstances.
Shaq in his prime was one of the most dominant athletes ever, it's very rare to have a guy so tall, large, strong, athletic, and on top of that very coordinated, relatively.
Kobe at the time was also the best perimeter player in the league. If you have the best big man and the best wing player in the league and you don't win, it's not just underachieving..it's a big failure.
I'm pretty sure almost any NBA coach would win multiple titles with prime Kobe and Shaq/unstoppable 7-foot, 350 lb athletic coordinated offensive and defensive dominating monster. And Jordan and Pippen vs. watered down NBA. You can't take away Jackson's accomplishments, but you can't say they're very impressive given the circumstances.
Shaq in his prime was one of the most dominant athletes ever, it's very rare to have a guy so tall, large, strong, athletic, and on top of that very coordinated, relatively.
Kobe at the time was also the best perimeter player in the league. If you have the best big man and the best wing player in the league and you don't win, it's not just underachieving..it's a big failure.
Not to mention big shot Bob.
Which makes the achievements of guys like Pop and Larry Brown even more amazing.
Pop took a squad that had a beasting Duncan but a retiring Robinson, a young Parker, a rookie Ginobili, young Jackson, and a bunch of ring-chasing vets to the top. Then Larry Brown took a squad whose players won't be appearing on shoe ads to the top, beating a superteam of Shaq/Kobe with vets in Malone and Payton.
pass1st
07-02-2012, 09:11 PM
I'm pretty sure almost any NBA coach would win multiple titles with prime Kobe and Shaq/unstoppable 7-foot, 350 lb athletic coordinated offensive and defensive dominating monster. And Jordan and Pippen vs. watered down NBA. You can't take away Jackson's accomplishments, but you can't say they're very impressive given the circumstances.
Shaq in his prime was one of the most dominant athletes ever, it's very rare to have a guy so tall, large, strong, athletic, and on top of that very coordinated, relatively.
Kobe at the time was also the best perimeter player in the league. If you have the best big man and the best wing player in the league and you don't win, it's not just underachieving..it's a big failure.
Shaq & Kobe likely wouldn't 3peat with any other coach in the league. Phil knew how to juggle egos, utilize a player like Kobe, run the triangle for Shaq and many people overlook how well he managed role players.
Heck, he's the only coach that Kobe would listen to (most of the time). The man was a genius when coaching high profile players.
Shaq & Kobe likely wouldn't 3peat with any other coach in the league. Phil knew how to juggle egos, utilize a player like Kobe, run the triangle for Shaq and many people overlook how well he managed role players.
Heck, he's the only coach that Kobe would listen to (most of the time). The man was a genius when coaching high profile players.
Exactly. He's not as amazing with Xs and Os as Pop is (shifting from "give Timmy the ball" to "give Tony the ball then pass to the open man in the corner" is an adjustment most coaches wouldn't do) but he's the best at managing egos.
Pop is the guy who doesn't treat his stars like stars, so he would get run out of town in places like LA.
HarlemHeat37
07-02-2012, 09:24 PM
There are many other coaches that could have won with Jordan-Pippen in a weak era, but I disagree about the Lakers teams..Shaq and Kobe absolutely detested each other, they are 2 of the most immature players of all-time..it took a special coach to keep them in line under tumultuous circumstances..
I'd be very surprised if the 2002 Lakers win under a different coach, or if the 2004 Lakers make the Finals under a different coach..
In addition to managing egos, Kobe has proven that he is not the same caliber of player in a non-triangle system..his shooting %s take a notable hit and his turnovers increase..Lakers don't win in 2010 without Jackson..they may still win in 2009, due to terrible competition..
pass1st
07-02-2012, 09:31 PM
Exactly. He's not as amazing with Xs and Os as Pop is (shifting from "give Timmy the ball" to "give Tony the ball then pass to the open man in the corner" is an adjustment most coaches wouldn't do) but he's the best at managing egos.
Pop is the guy who doesn't treat his stars like stars, so he would get run out of town in places like LA.
Phil does the Xs & Os in the 4th quarter, his philosophy has always been let the players play for 3 quarters. Which is basically why he loved being stingy with timeouts. His track record in close games is very good. so it's not entirely correct to say he's not amazing at that.
LAL under Jackson is famous for breaking down even the greatest defensive teams in the league at the times he coached. He's average when coaching defense, but hands down the best offensive coach in NBA history. Coupled with his ability to handle the biggest egos, command respect, encourage players and put rosters together on the court like puzzle pieces, he makes an extremely strong case for best coach in NBA history.
Riley and Pop also make strong arguments, it just goes down to which teams/eras you like better.
Phil does the Xs & Os in the 4th quarter, his philosophy has always been let the players play for 3 quarters. Which is basically why he loved being stingy with timeouts. His track record in close games is very good. so it's not entirely correct to say he's not amazing at that.
LAL under Jackson is famous for breaking down even the greatest defensive teams in the league at the times he coached. He's average when coaching defense, but hands down the best offensive coach in NBA history. Coupled with his ability to handle the biggest egos, command respect, encourage players and put rosters together on the court like puzzle pieces, he makes an extremely strong case for best coach in NBA history.
Riley and Pop also make strong arguments, it just goes down to which teams/eras you like better.
It's easy to let players play the game for 3 quarters when they're elite of course, but point taken.
ALVAREZ6
07-02-2012, 09:52 PM
Shaq & Kobe likely wouldn't 3peat with any other coach in the league. Phil knew how to juggle egos, utilize a player like Kobe, run the triangle for Shaq and many people overlook how well he managed role players.
Heck, he's the only coach that Kobe would listen to (most of the time). The man was a genius when coaching high profile players.
Phil was clearly a good man manager and that's why you can't take away the credit he deserves, but from a pure basketball standpoint it isn't very impressive. Phil's previous championships with MJ & Co likely helped him in this regard too, it was probably working in his favor when managing Kobe and Shaq. Knowing what the man already accomplished with the Bulls, Kobe and Shaq didn't have many better options if they wanted immediate rings than to shut up and play together under Phil. And that reputation/previous success is derived from something done in the past, which makes managing Kobe and Shaq somewhat easier.
All I'm saying is the act of winning titles with the early 2000 Lakers wasn't impressive.
pass1st
07-02-2012, 10:00 PM
It's easy to let players play the game for 3 quarters when they're elite of course, but point taken.
It's not like he's twiddling his thumbs while it happens. Phil gauges where his team is at for the 1st 3 quarters to devise his strategy for the 4th. You have to give credit to a coach who can give free reign to players and grab the steering wheel any time he wants.
It's not like he's twiddling his thumbs while it happens. Phil gauges where his team is at for the 1st 3 quarters to devise his strategy for the 4th. You have to give credit to a coach who can give free reign to players and grab the steering wheel any time he wants.
:lmao
pass1st
07-02-2012, 10:14 PM
Phil was clearly a good man manager and that's why you can't take away the credit he deserves, but from a pure basketball standpoint it isn't very impressive. Phil's previous championships with MJ & Co likely helped him in this regard too, it was probably working in his favor when managing Kobe and Shaq. Knowing what the man already accomplished with the Bulls, Kobe and Shaq didn't have many better options if they wanted immediate rings than to shut up and play together under Phil. And that reputation/previous success is derived from something done in the past, which makes managing Kobe and Shaq somewhat easier.
All I'm saying is the act of winning titles with the early 2000 Lakers wasn't impressive.
You're missing the point: He had to make hero-ball players fit into the plays he ran. It's not only managing egos, it's utilizing high talent players perfectly. The Lakers struggled against good defense when Phil let them play by themselves, but suddenly when he steps in the opponents defense breaks down within minutes.
He was an extremely good coach on the drawing board and teams didn't pick him because he rode on the coattails of talented players. He took a few talented players and coached them to play championship TEAM ball, hell Kobe was a good team player for 2000 and 2001. Jordan was a good team player and he was selfish as fuck before the 90s. Shaq, same story. He not only made players get along, he drew plays and gave them places in the team that made them content.
There is a lot more to coaching that Xs and Os, Phil covered everything while under astronomical pressure to succeed.
pass1st
07-02-2012, 10:18 PM
:lmao
:lolnever watched a Laker game if disagrees
You're missing the point: He had to make hero-ball players fit into the plays he ran. It's not only managing egos, it's utilizing high talent players perfectly. The Lakers struggled against good defense when Phil let them play by themselves, but suddenly when he steps in the opponents defense breaks down within minutes.
He was an extremely good coach on the drawing board and teams didn't pick him because he rode on the coattails of talented players. He took a few talented players and coached them to play championship TEAM ball, hell Kobe was a good team player for 2000 and 2001. Jordan was a good team player and he was selfish as fuck before the 90s. Shaq, same story. He not only made players get along, he drew plays and gave them places in the team that made them content.
There is a lot more to coaching that Xs and Os, Phil covered everything while under astronomical pressure to succeed.
So Mike K is a phenom for winning the gold. Chuck Daily even more so for managing all those stars. How did he manage that and the gold?
If Brown gets them the same place Phil does, it means Phil couldn't do much better than an average coach.
The question has been answered then.
King Nupe
05-31-2013, 02:21 PM
Phil could've won more Championships with the Spurs, than POP tbh....
Phil could've won more Championships with the Spurs, than POP tbh....
lol
Phil would never accept a coaching job for a team that's not the most dominant team, on paper.
Pop would have gotten the 2013 Lakers to the WCF.
spurs_fan_in_exile
05-31-2013, 02:27 PM
Phil would have encouraged a feud between Robinson and Duncan like he did Shaq and Kobe, culminating with Robinson losing it and telling Duncan that he loved Tim slightly less than Jesus said he should and Tim shrugging extremely aggressively. It would have shredded the locker room.
lefty
05-31-2013, 02:33 PM
Phil is a great defensive coach (he was the assistant in charge of the D before becoming head coach)
On offense, well, we all know he didnt invent the triangle offense, but he is someone players will listen to (well, except Kobe, who was closer to Tex)
He convinced MJ to play in that system, so he is good at convincing players and managing egos; Phil's philosophy was : the Stars of the team have to make the role players better, not vice-versa
Phil could've won more Championships with the Spurs, than POP tbh....
lol
Phil would never accept a coaching job for a team that's not the most dominant team, on paper.
Pop would have gotten the 2013 Lakers to the WCF.
Phil is a hippie that fucks around and instigates crap all the time. I was on his side with the whole Kraus debacle but is it any mystery that teams and owners want the guy fired even after he delivers consecutive championships? He's lucky to have had Tex Winters, Shaq, and Jordan.
Pop is a no BS hard working type of guy, he developed his team so everyone would know what to expect night in and out.
All the Phil Jackson love in this thread..
Thread
05-18-2015, 04:30 PM
Pop is a no BS hard working type of guy, he developed his team so everyone would know what to expect night in and out.
Horseshit, he sold himself out in Game 82 this season, then had to answer for it 7 games later.
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