ESPN: 5 on 5, Rookie with best impact for next season Kawhi Leonard

[Amuseddaysleeper]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=5-on-5-110706




ESPN's 5 on 5 segment mentioned Kawhi Leonard in their "Best Newbie for next season" section. 3 out of the 5 picked Leonard:




Jordan Heimer, ClipperBlog: Next season: Kawhi Leonard instantly solves the Spurs' Richard Jefferson problems in two ways -- Leonard is a combo forward the Spurs can use to match up against smaller, quicker lineups, and he provides significant rebounding from the 3 when the Spurs play big.

Career: I know it's hard to (A) give too much credit to a GM for making an obvious move, and (B) give any credit to Timberwolves GM David Kahn, ever. That being said, we will look back at this as the "Derrick Williams" draft.

Beckley Mason, HoopSpeak: Gregg Popovich hates rookies, but I'm thinking Kawhi Leonard has a chance to be an impact player next year for a team coming off a 60-win season. He fills a role that's been missing in San Antonio since Bruce Bowen retired. Don't overthink this: Kyrie Irving is the top talent in this class and should have a long, productive career.

Jonathan Santiago, Cowbell Kingdom: Kawhi Leonard gets my vote for Part 1. His hustling mentality will earn him minutes right off the bat for an aging yet still competitive Spurs team. But long-term, I like Alec Burks. His scoring ability will translate well to the NBA level. And his spotty defense is just a question of effort, which can be fixed.

[GB20]

i have a feeling kawhi leonard is going to be like a manu and tony type of player.

[Sisk]

i have a feeling kawhi leonard is going to be like a manu and tony type of player.

???????

[InRareForm]

i have a feeling kawhi leonard is going to be like a manu and tony type of player.

http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/Spurs19992003/2vno2a1.gif

[TE]

i have a feeling kawhi leonard is going to be like a manu and tony type of player.

:td

[sananspursfan21]

i have a feeling kawhi leonard is going to be like a manu and tony type of player.

huh, i was thinking kobe

[TD 21]

Barring a trade, I think Leonard will see spot minutes, primarily as a small ball four.

Looking at the wing rotation, the only one they'd like to move is Jefferson. Unfortunately, there's probably a good chance he won't be moved, for obvious reasons. So unless they put Anderson or Neal in a package for a starting PF, or Anderson is a massive disappointment in training camp/preseason, I don't see how Leonard cracks the rotation. Unless they utilize the backup wing minutes based on match-up, at least until or unless one of Anderson or Leonard clearly separates themselves from the other.
.

[MaNu4Tres]

Barring a trade, I think Leonard will see spot minutes, primarily as a small ball four.

Looking at the wing rotation, the only one they'd like to move is Jefferson. Unfortunately, there's probably a good chance he won't be moved, for obvious reasons. So unless they put Anderson or Neal in a package for a starting PF, or Anderson is a massive disappointment in training camp/preseason, I don't see how Leonard cracks the rotation. Unless they utilize the backup wing minutes based on match-up, at least until or unless one of Anderson or Leonard clearly separates themselves from the other.
.

I disagree, I think they will free up minutes for Leonard and Anderson by using Neal at the position he played prior to joining the Spurs, point guard. He showed he's more than capable to bring up the ball on occasion last year and even run the pick and roll fairly well. Having him split the duty with Manu for 12-15 minutes a game is not overwhelming for either player and it will allow the Spurs to field their 9-10 best players on the roster.

[Cane]

Considering the Spurs felt that Leonard was worthy enough to trade away one of the organization's favorite players; I agree with the ESPN article. Leonard will get his minutes and now Richard Jefferson can be on an even shorter leash if need be.

The less minutes that Manu has to play SF the better as well imo.

[MaNu4Tres]

Spurs would be pretty stupid to not play Leonard because they feel they need a labeled point guard like Earl Watson to play back-up point guard-- which would then move most of Neal's minutes to SG and Anderson's to SF. It's all a domino effect for the PG-SG-SF positions.

If Spurs let Neal run the back-up point for 10-14 minutes a night then more time would free up for Leonard and Anderson at the SF and SG. That is what should happen IMO.

[GB20]

Considering the Spurs felt that Leonard was worthy enough to trade away one of the organization's favorite players; I agree with the ESPN article. Leonard will get his minutes and now Richard Jefferson can be on an even shorter leash if need be.

The less minutes that Manu has to play SF the better as well imo.
i agree. the spurs saw something they like from this guy. how are you going to trade your best young player?

[TD 21]

I disagree, I think they will free up minutes for Leonard and Anderson by using Neal at the position he played prior to joining the Spurs, point guard. He showed he's more than capable to bring up the ball on occasion last year and even run the pick and roll fairly well. Having him split the duty with Manu for 12-15 minutes a game is not overwhelming for either player and it will allow the Spurs to field their 9-10 best players on the roster.

The issue I see with Neal playing PG is not offensively, it's defensively. Even if he proves adequate at this, what happens when the Spurs inevitably suffer an injury to one of their three primary ball handlers, Parker, Ginobili or Neal? What if two go down at once? Just run the remaining one-two left into the ground? Play Joseph extensively? They need insurance at the point, even if it's someone who doesn't play much.

Ten man rotations are difficult for myriad reasons to begin with, but on this team, it would be especially difficult. Neal would not only have to play PG, but he'd have to do so with two mediocre ball handlers alongside him, in Anderson and Leonard.

Just because they gave up Hill for Leonard, that doesn't necessarily mean he'll play significant minutes next season. This is an organization that had arguably their most celebrated acquisition in 8 years outside of the rotation virtually all of last season, despite paying him in excess of $3 million dollars. They will not feel pressure to play someone for PR reasons or because of optics.

However, Buford did say that, though it would be up to Pop, he would expect that Leonard would be in the rotation next season. Perhaps a clue that a trade is in the offing.

[MaNu4Tres]

The issue I see with Neal playing PG is not offensively, it's defensively. Even if he proves adequate at this, what happens when the Spurs inevitably suffer an injury to one of their three primary ball handlers, Parker, Ginobili or Neal? What if two go down at once? Just run the remaining one-two left into the ground? Play Joseph extensively? They need insurance at the point, even if it's someone who doesn't play much.

I'm not saying the Spurs should not go after a cheap 3rd point guard (they should and they will), I'm saying when fully healthy, Spurs should use Neal at the back-up PG spot over the presumed low quality minimum point guard--which would give Leonard and Anderson more time.


Ten man rotations are difficult for myriad reasons to begin with, but on this team, it would be especially difficult. Neal would not only have to play PG, but he'd have to do so with two mediocre ball handlers alongside him, in Anderson and Leonard.

Not necessarily, if Manu starts, he will come out of the game at the 7-6 minute mark just like he always does, and come back in the game at the 1-2 minute mark to be the primary ball-handler/creator (like he always is) when Parker goes to the bench (which would be with Leonard-SF and Neal-PG).

On the other hand, if Anderson shows significant improvement come training camp, then I can see him potentially starting, giving the Spurs rotation better balance with Manu coming off the bench with Neal and Leonard.

[jimo2305]

jeeze we're srsly overrating this guy.. why doesnt anyone consider him playing in a weak WAC conference for starters?

[5in10]

jeeze we're srsly overrating this guy.. why doesnt anyone consider him playing in a weak WAC conference for starters?

Where did GH3 play again?

[Interrohater]

jeeze we're srsly overrating this guy.. why doesnt anyone consider him playing in a weak WAC conference for starters?
:rolleyes I guess ESPN, Draft Express and basketball analysts everywhere are also seriously overrating this guy.

As to the earlier point, I don't see why the Spurs would need to fill out a third PG spot. If Gary Neal can indeed play it, then we've already got TP, Neal, Joseph and Quinn to back it up. If both Manu and Tony go down, then you might as well just prepare for a few rocky games and losing some spots in the standings because there's no third string point guards out there who are going to make up for that. I like the roster as is, excluding the disappointment and the great panini.

[jimo2305]

Where did GH3 play again?

http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2010/02/still-climbing/

None of that should have come as a surprise to onlookers or opponents, even if it did. Out of high school, Hill was recruited by a handful of big-time Division I programs, including Florida and Indiana. Nonetheless, he elected to stay as close to home as possible so that his family could come see him play and, more specifically, to be near his ailing great-grandfather.

i still get what you're saying bro but hill wasn't as bad as some ppl here make him out to be.. i'll just keep my wit about me and assume the spurs are not done with the backcourt situation because right now parker/joseph/quinn is a severe downgrade..

[joshdaboss]

:rolleyes I guess ESPN, Draft Express and basketball analysts everywhere are also seriously overrating this guy.

Darko Milicic = the next Sabonis. Michael Olowokandi = the next Patrick Ewing.

[DieMrBond]

:rolleyes I guess ESPN, Draft Express and basketball analysts everywhere are also seriously overrating this guy.

Are they seriously overrating the guy... or are they overrating the Spurs ability to draft? Guess we will find out...

[ChuckD]

Darko Milicic = the next Sabonis. Michael Olowokandi = the next Patrick Ewing.

Two whiffs in a decade ain't bad.

I don't think he's going to be a star, but he will be very good. I'm thinking something like a young Shawn Marion, minus all of the butt hurt.

[cheguevara]

i have a feeling kawhi leonard is going to be like a manu and tony type of player.

IMHO more like a Jordan, Chamberlain, Muhammad Ali type

[mathbzh]

IMHO more like a Jordan, Chamberlain, Muhammad Ali type

Even better Pops Mensah-Bonsu type:hat

[Darkwaters]

IMHO more like a Jordan, Chamberlain, Muhammad Ali type

Muhammad Ali was a hell of a point guard.

[TJastal]

Two whiffs in a decade ain't bad.

I don't think he's going to be a star, but he will be very good. I'm thinking something like a young Shawn Marion, minus all of the butt hurt.

You're talking about Khawi Leonard, correct? And not Chris Singleton? I'm sorry I don't see that comparison at all tbh.

[rjv]

by next season do they mean 2012-13 ?

[GB20]

i am not saying he is going to be a franchise player but this guy has the tools to be a beast if he improves his jump shot and he is only 19 years old.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

i am not saying he is going to be a franchise player but this guy has the tools to be a beast if he improves his jump shot and he is only 19 years old.

There are a lot of players who have the tools. JR Smith has the tools, but he'll never be anything. A lot of young players suffer when being overhyped and can't live up to the false expectations.

[Interrohater]

There are a lot of players who have the tools. JR Smith has the tools, but he'll never be anything. A lot of young players suffer when being overhyped and can't live up to the false expectations.
Dude, he just said that he doesn't think he'll be a franchise-type player. How is saying that he's going to be a good, not all-star but good, player in this league over-hyping? What expectations are false about thinking that he can become one of the hundreds of non-star caliber players in this league? Which is exactly what JR Smith is. JR Smith is an ass but he has talent and he plays his role for his team... they can't all be hall of fame-rs man

[buttsR4rebounding]

Barring a trade, I think Leonard will see spot minutes, primarily as a small ball four.

Looking at the wing rotation, the only one they'd like to move is Jefferson. Unfortunately, there's probably a good chance he won't be moved, for obvious reasons. So unless they put Anderson or Neal in a package for a starting PF, or Anderson is a massive disappointment in training camp/preseason, I don't see how Leonard cracks the rotation. Unless they utilize the backup wing minutes based on match-up, at least until or unless one of Anderson or Leonard clearly separates themselves from the other.
.

I think he will see time. I see the rotation looking like this next year:

PG: Parker starting with Manu, Neal and Johnson backing up
SG: Manu may start, but Neal and Anderson will get the bulk of minutes at the 2.
SF: RJ w/ Leonard backing up w/ Anderson getting spot minutes

[SenorSpur]

I think he will see time. I see the rotation looking like this next year:

PG: Parker starting with Manu, Neal and Johnson backing up
SG: Manu may start, but Neal and Anderson will get the bulk of minutes at the 2.
SF: RJ w/ Leonard backing up w/ Anderson getting spot minutes

The mere fact that Pop is so in love with "small-ball" practically ensures that Leonard will get time. I can see it now. A second quarter frontline of Leonard, Splitter and Bonner. Leonard and Splitter doing the dirty work, while Bonner serves up his usual diet of missed, "clutch" 3's and helpless defense against any opposing player.

[buttsR4rebounding]

The mere fact that Pop is so in love with "small-ball" practically ensures that Leonard will get time. I can see it now. A second quarter frontline of Leonard, Splitter and Bonner. Leonard and Splitter doing the dirty work, while Bonner serves up his usual diet of missed, "clutch" 3's and helpless defense against any opposing player.

Bonner did hit 2 clutch 3's in the last minute of Game 1 in the playoffs. He was clutch city, baby...

[TimDunkem]

....And gave up a layup seconds later. :lol

[Chomag]

....And gave up a layup seconds later. :lol

Yep, I still remember yelling at my TV after that happned :lol

[jimo2305]

....And gave up a layup seconds later. :lol

sup TimDunkem

[spurspokesman]

http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo244/Spurs19992003/2vno2a1.gif

Laughing my face off

[ChuckD]

You're talking about Khawi Leonard, correct? And not Chris Singleton? I'm sorry I don't see that comparison at all tbh.

You think Singleton is a premier rebounder for a "three"? Marion and Leonard sure as shit are. Marion also didn't shoot well from distance when he got to the NBA, not over 30% until year three, actually.

[TJastal]

You think Singleton is a premier rebounder for a "three"? Marion and Leonard sure as shit are. Marion also didn't shoot well from distance when he got to the NBA, not over 30% until year three, actually.

I'll give you Leonard is the superior rebounder but keep in mind he also played in a significantly weaker division than Singleton.

I am more impressed with Singleton's ability to play above the rim contesting and blocking shots & also his 2+ steals a game than Leonard's ability to pull down 10 boards/gm in a shit division.

And especially for the spurs & Tim Duncan, a couple extra rebounds per game from the small forward position isn't going to help out much. I'm sure Tim Duncan would much rather get some weakside shotblocking help tbh.

[ChuckD]

I'll give you Leonard is the superior rebounder but keep in mind he also played in a significantly weaker division than Singleton.

I am more impressed with Singleton's ability to play above the rim contesting and blocking shots & also his 2+ steals a game than Leonard's ability to pull down 10 boards/gm in a shit division.

And especially for the spurs & Tim Duncan, a couple extra rebounds per game from the small forward position isn't going to help out much. I'm sure Tim Duncan would much rather get some weakside shotblocking help tbh.

Yeah, we get that you like Singleton better. That still doesn't explain your reaction to my Marion/Leonard comparson. It's not like Marion is a weakside shotblocker, either.

[TJastal]

Yeah, we get that you like Singleton better. That still doesn't explain your reaction to my Marion/Leonard comparson. It's not like Marion is a weakside shotblocker, either.

I guess I need to explain everything here...

Marion was a premier shotblocker in college and always averaged over one a game in the nba, and plays well above the rim (LIKE SINGLETON). His help defense from the 3 I thought was critical for the mavs during their championship run. His length and ability to contest shots in and around the paint was key in preventing many of those easy point blank layups that the spurs surrendered repeatedly in their series with the grizzlies. This is what the spurs most needed to address IMO, since Jefferson is slowing down (and never was that type of player to begin with anyway)

Whatever though. I guess you and all the other homers will be fapping yourselves to every stray rebound Leonard pulls down (out of Duncan & Blair's hands most likely). While the spurs paint defense continues to be complete shit.

[ChuckD]

I guess I need to explain everything here...

Marion was a premier shotblocker in college and always averaged over one a game in the nba, and plays well above the rim (LIKE SINGLETON). His help defense from the 3 I thought was critical for the mavs during their championship run. His length and ability to contest shots in and around the paint was key in preventing many of those easy point blank layups that the spurs surrendered repeatedly in their series with the grizzlies. This is what the spurs most needed to address IMO, since Jefferson is slowing down (and never was that type of player to begin with anyway)

Whatever though. I guess you and all the other homers will be fapping yourselves to every stray rebound Leonard pulls down (out of Duncan & Blair's hands most likely). While the spurs paint defense continues to be complete shit.

Yeah, those Suns teams were airtight on defense. No one ever got a layup on their weakside. :lol

If you think I'm a homer, I think you are the ultimate anti-homer, and that's not a compliment. You think the Spurs are complete shit, coached badly, and can't make a right move to save their lives. Doesn't that kind of make you a dumb shit for following them?

[TJastal]

Yeah, those Suns teams were airtight on defense. No one ever got a layup on their weakside. :lol

If you think I'm a homer, I think you are the ultimate anti-homer, and that's not a compliment. You think the Spurs are complete shit, coached badly, and can't make a right move to save their lives. Doesn't that kind of make you a dumb shit for following them?

Thank you. I'll take it as a compliment, esp coming from a homer like yourself.

5 years of watching Pop fellate Bonner and vice versa (with another 3 more to go) tends to make one disgruntled and skeptical about things, especially considering the fact that it was at the cost of watching Tim Duncan finish out his career playing next to an all star caliber talent like Luis Scola. Add to that Pop's coaching continues to get more and more neurotic with each passing year and I think it's quite understandable why there is a growing number of "anti-homers" in this forum.

[jjktkk]

Thank you. I'll take it as a compliment, esp coming from a homer like yourself.

5 years of watching Pop fellate Bonner and vice versa (with another 3 more to go) tends to make one disgruntled and skeptical about things, especially considering the fact that it was at the cost of watching Tim Duncan finish out his career playing next to an all star caliber talent like Luis Scola. Add to that Pop's coaching continues to get more and more neurotic with each passing year and I think it's quite understandable why there is a growing number of "anti-homers" in this forum.

Lol, growing number.

[DesignatedT]

Leonard and Singleton are pretty similar players and I like them both. What put Leonard above Singleton when it came to every teams draft board was his extreme work ethic & drive, and overall potential to be a better all around basketball player.. on both sides of the ball.

[TJastal]

Leonard and Singleton are pretty similar players and I like them both. What put Leonard above Singleton when it came to every teams draft board was his extreme work ethic & drive, and overall potential to be a better all around basketball player.. on both sides of the ball.

LMAO.

Singleton will be MUCH better defensively than Leonard can ever dream to be. Taller, stronger, faster, better vertical... it won't even be close.

Offensively it will depend on whether or not Leonard can learn to shoot from distance (where he's likely going to find himself in the spurs' offense), otherwise Singleton will have an edge there as well.

[TJastal]

These writers are friggin' hilarious if they think Leonard is going to have the biggest impact of any rookie. On the spurs? Whose offense predicates the small forward setting up a tent in the corner and waiting for a kickout? LMAO.

Leonard is just a bad overall fit for the spurs IMO. Pop has had a great track record of drafting the past decade but this one is going to be a major bust. And considering that they surrendered Hill in order to draft this bust really makes it even more sad.

My guess is if Leonard doesn't learn to shoot an nba 3pt, he'll be riding alot of pine behind Jefferson next year. No chance he will crack the starting lineup. And on the off-chance that he does develop a respectable 3 pt shot, his one strength (rebounding), will be wasted in the spurs' system. Singleton would have been 5X better as a fit. Better transition player, better defensive player (by far), better shooter, ... fuck.

[TJastal]

Watching Hill, Manu & Singleton wreck other teams in the transition game would have been just electrifying to watch next year. Singleton would have been phenomenal in that lineup as a high flyer / dunker / finisher taking pass after pass and throwing em down from Manu & Hill on the fast breaks. :depressed

Instead we'll get to watch the poodle running more of his patented 1 man fast breaks and occassionally throwing a half-court lob pass to a declining RJ who probably won't even be able to finish them anymore. Can't wait.

[Hooks]

IMO Leonard has a much higher ceiling than Singleton, Singleton is a good defender and all but that's pretty much it. Leonard can create his own shot, can rebound much better, he's a solid defender, great work ethic and motor, and he's actually a VERY good passer which Singleton isn't at all, and he can also handle the ball very well. Leonard has really great court vision, he created a lot of shots last year for SDSU.

Leonard has already changed his shot mechanics which used to be pretty horrible. Honestly if his shot were actually just decent he could've easily average over 20 PPG last year. He'd get to the basket at will/post up guys but would wind up missing easy ass jump shots from like 8 feet from the basket.

[TJastal]

IMO Leonard has a much higher ceiling than Singleton, Singleton is a good defender and all but that's pretty much it. Leonard can create his own shot, can rebound much better, he's a solid defender, great work ethic and motor, and he's actually a VERY good passer which Singleton isn't at all, and he can also handle the ball very well. Leonard has really great court vision, he created a lot of shots last year for SDSU.

Leonard has already changed his shot mechanics which used to be pretty horrible. Honestly if his shot were actually just decent he could've easily average over 20 PPG last year. He'd get to the basket at will/post up guys but would wind up missing easy ass jump shots from like 8 feet from the basket.

So in other words you don't really know if he'll ever learn to shoot the ball from 8 feet away (never mind a regulation 24 feet which will be one of his main jobs in the spurs starting lineup).

All you know is he dominated all the scrubs in the pathetic mountain west conference, wonderful. That should translate immediately to the nba.

I'm kind of curious how easy it'll be for him to get his own shot against real nba players and how many rebounds he'll collect standing out on the 3pt line keeping the driving lanes unclogged for the poodle's penetration.

[mystargtr34]

The Spurs wont lose much by giving away Hill especially with Neal already showing he is capable of playing 20 minutes a night in the NBA... and Anderson who has a higher celing than Hill anyway. Plus, Hill had very average lateral quickness meaning he couldnt stay in front of PG's.. and he is too short to defend SG's. People constantly talked about his versatility on D but thats a bunch of BS stemming from the fact he couldnt adequately defend one position.

[TJastal]

The Spurs wont lose much by giving away Hill especially with Neal already showing he is capable of playing 20 minutes a night in the NBA... and Anderson who has a higher celing than Hill anyway. Plus, Hill had very average lateral quickness meaning he couldnt stay in front of PG's.. and he is too short to defend SG's. People constantly talked about his versatility on D but thats a bunch of BS stemming from the fact he couldnt adequately defend one position.

Hill has plenty of lateral quickness, what he has trouble with is getting through screens. Which is a learning process that takes time, and isn't helped by the fact that the spurs' bigs are all slower than molasses out on the perimeter and can't hedge worth a shit. Neal has the same exact problem (getting through picks) although it isn't as obvious since Hill always guarded the oppositions's best perimeter players.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Sometimes I think people argue with TJastal blindly without even considering his point. I've argued with him in the past, but on this point he's dead on.

Chris Singleton was hands down the best perimeter defender in this draft. Florida State had THE BEST defensive rating in college basketball (http://kenpom.com/stats.php?s=RankAdjDE) in spite of the fact they went up against powerhouse teams like Duke and UNC regularly playing in the ACC. I know SDSU had the 3rd highest defensive rating, but that's not nearly as much of a feat playing in the WAC.

Point being, I'm not sure how TJastal is being an anti-homer at all. Chris Singleton being better than Leonard defensively is something pretty much any draft expert, analyst or college commentator would agree with. Leonard is the better rebounder and is more similar to Marion in that respect, but if the Spurs were trying to find a guy to fill the void they've had since Bowen left, Singleton woulda been better.

[ChuckD]

Sometimes I think people argue with TJastal blindly without even considering his point. I've argued with him in the past, but on this point he's dead on.

Chris Singleton was hands down the best perimeter defender in this draft. Florida State had THE BEST defensive rating in college basketball (http://kenpom.com/stats.php?s=RankAdjDE) in spite of the fact they went up against powerhouse teams like Duke and UNC regularly playing in the ACC. I know SDSU had the 3rd highest defensive rating, but that's not nearly as much of a feat playing in the WAC.

Point being, I'm not sure how TJastal is being an anti-homer at all. Chris Singleton being better than Leonard defensively is something pretty much any draft expert, analyst or college commentator would agree with. Leonard is the better rebounder and is more similar to Marion in that respect, but if the Spurs were trying to find a guy to fill the void they've had since Bowen left, Singleton woulda been better.

Call me crazy: I thought the idea behind the draft was to get the best basketball player available. So maybe Singleton is a 9 on defense and Leonard is an 8.5 or an 8. Scouting reports had Leonard as a pretty good ballhandler and passer, something VERY suited to our system. Maybe Kawhi is a 7.5 on offense and Singleton is a 6, since all he can do is finish in transition and spot up.

Oh, and Kawhi is 19, Singleton 21.

[TJastal]

Call me crazy: I thought the idea behind the draft was to get the best basketball player available. So maybe Singleton is a 9 on defense and Leonard is an 8.5 or an 8. Scouting reports had Leonard as a pretty good ballhandler and passer, something VERY suited to our system. Maybe Kawhi is a 7.5 on offense and Singleton is a 6, since all he can do is finish in transition and spot up.

Oh, and Kawhi is 19, Singleton 21.

"Suited to our system"? What system have you been watching? Passing & rebounding skills from the 3 in the spurs' offense are useless.. Jefferson had all-time career lows in assists, rebounds and free throw totals last season. All of Leonard's supposed "strengths" are going to be useless. And if you think Pop is going to design set plays for a 19 year old when he won't do it for seasoned veteran, then you are way past crazy.

Skills that would have actually been useful in the spurs' system would have been perimeter defense, 3pt shooting, & finishing off transition dunks, which are all Singleton's strengths.

Not to mention Singleton would provide some added rim protection and shotblocking, something the spurs are in desperately short supply of in the worst way esp if both Bonner & Blair figure to be part of the rotation.

[ChuckD]

"Suited to our system"? What system have you been watching? Passing & rebounding skills from the 3 in the spurs' offense are useless.. Jefferson had all-time career lows in assists, rebounds and free throw totals last season. All of Leonard's supposed "strengths" are going to be useless. And if you think Pop is going to design set plays for a 19 year old when he won't do it for seasoned veteran, then you are way past crazy.

Skills that would have actually been useful in the spurs' system would have been perimeter defense, 3pt shooting, & finishing off transition dunks, which are all Singleton's strengths.

Not to mention Singleton would provide some added rim protection and shotblocking, something the spurs are in desperately short supply of in the worst way esp if both Bonner & Blair figure to be part of the rotation.

So, because Jefferson sucks and is limited on offense, you want that to continue with Singleton. Got it. You want Singleton, the black Bonner on offense, to park on the perimeter. Got it. That stationary perimeter shit worked real well from 2000-2003.

Passing and ball handling also don't require set plays to be an asset. In case you haven't been watching since, oh, 2003, the Spurs run a motion offense. That requires a lot of read and react.

[TJastal]

So, because Jefferson sucks and is limited on offense, you want that to continue with Singleton. Got it. You want Singleton, the black Bonner on offense, to park on the perimeter. Got it. That stationary perimeter shit worked real well from 2000-2003.

Passing and ball handling also don't require set plays to be an asset. In case you haven't been watching since, oh, 2003, the Spurs run a motion offense. That requires a lot of read and react.

Jefferson is still parked out on the perimeter 90% of the time in the spurs' "motion" offense. It won't be any different for Leonard. When the poodle penetrates, somebody has to be out there on the perimeter to open up the lanes and also help prevent easy transition fast breaks for the opposition. Same with Manu. You may fancy the idea that Leonard is going to be getting all these opportunities to show off his fancy passing & rebounding skills, but in reality it's not going to happen.

[elemento]

Why don't we let the guy play before we claim someone is better or worse than him ? The boy is really young. He has a lot of time to develop his game.

Some guys here are so negative it's sad. Sometimes it looks like they just want the guy to suck just to prove their points. It's pretty pathetic.

[EricD]

Any one else tired of lurking on here, only to see countless dumb rants and raves by TJastal?

[EricD]

Should change the name to this site to TJastal-talk. Seriously.

[Cane]

There was a time when he at least couldn't start threads :cry

[EricD]

There was a time when he at least couldn't start threads :cry

He seriously has no life. :lol

It's pretty sad..tbh

[Bill_Brasky]

"Suited to our system"? What system have you been watching? Passing & rebounding skills from the 3 in the spurs' offense are useless.. Jefferson had all-time career lows in assists, rebounds and free throw totals last season. All of Leonard's supposed "strengths" are going to be useless. And if you think Pop is going to design set plays for a 19 year old when he won't do it for seasoned veteran, then you are way past crazy.

Skills that would have actually been useful in the spurs' system would have been perimeter defense, 3pt shooting, & finishing off transition dunks, which are all Singleton's strengths.

Not to mention Singleton would provide some added rim protection and shotblocking, something the spurs are in desperately short supply of in the worst way esp if both Bonner & Blair figure to be part of the rotation.


Bookmarked for when Singleton doesn't do shit in the NBA.

[sefant77]

Dejavue

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159968

[Juan]

How do all you dipshit Spurs fans even put up with this dipshit TJastal. Is this pendejo for real?

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Call me crazy: I thought the idea behind the draft was to get the best basketball player available.
Nuh uh, don't try moving the goalposts. This argument was about the better defender/rebounder, not best basketball player.


So maybe Singleton is a 9 on defense and Leonard is an 8.5 or an 8.
http://www.nbadraft.net/players/chris-singleton
http://www.nbadraft.net/players/kawhi-leonard
Chris Singleton defensive rating: 10
Kawhi Leonard defensive rating: 7

A lot have said Chris Singleton has elite defensive talent. Yeah, the report on Leonard is he's a good defender, but you didn't hear anything predraft about Leonard being an elite lock down defender down the road.



Scouting reports had Leonard as a pretty good ballhandler and passer, something VERY suited to our system. Maybe Kawhi is a 7.5 on offense and Singleton is a 6, since all he can do is finish in transition and spot up.
I'd even say you're being very kind to Singleton by giving him a 6 offensively. He'll be an offensive liability until (assuming he ever does) develop a consistent shot defenses need to respect. He'll never be a threat off the dribble/in the post. Leonard is undoubtedly much better than Singleton with the ball in his hands, but he's not good enough where he'll be taking the ball out of Parker and Manu's hands.

I'd say Kawhi is the better overall basketball player, but IMO Singleton can have more of an impact without touching the ball.


Oh, and Kawhi is 19, Singleton 21.
This would be relevant if we're talking 5 years down the road. Since the Spurs' primary goal for the near future is putting a better supporting cast around the big 3 so they can contend again, it really doesn't matter that Kawhi is younger. If anything, it means he's gonna need more time, time Duncan and Manu don't have.

[Dex]

All this speculation is well and good, but nobody really knows what this guy will pan out to be. The ones who have the best idea, though, is probably the Spurs scouting team.

IIRC, the Spurs have never traded a player to move up in the draft like that. Something about Leonard showed them enough promise to part with a good (if not slightly redundant) player in Hill. I'm curious to see exactly what that was.

Hell, I'm just glad to see some activity for once.

[The Truth #6]

TJastal usually comes across pretty hot-headed in my opinion, but I think some of his opinions have been pretty good lately.

[ChumpDumper]

Eh, he's never seen either play.

[ChuckD]

Why don't we let the guy play before we claim someone is better or worse than him ? The boy is really young. He has a lot of time to develop his game.

Some guys here are so negative it's sad. Sometimes it looks like they just want the guy to suck just to prove their points. It's pretty pathetic.

[ChuckD]

Nuh uh, don't try moving the goalposts. This argument was about the better defender/rebounder, not best basketball player.


Actually, the thread is about an article predicting impact rookies, not impact defenders. I didn't move the goalposts, Mr. I hate Kawhi did.

[jesterbobman]

The reality is we don't know which players will be good, so both sides could be right. But I'd go with Kawhi based on, in general he's more liked by scouts (nbadraft.net, ESPN top 100 and DX top 100 rank him higher), stat methods like him(Hollingers predictor, Wages of Wins stuff) and I'm inclined to believe that consensus. I'd say that long term, there's a 75% chance that Leonard is the better player, and that's probably the best we can get. Singleton may end up playing more with the Wizards than Kawhi does with us, and I'd guess he'll score more than Kawhi does as a result, but on a per minute basis, I'd guess that Kawhi will be better.

[TDMVPDPOY]

let him start

then rookie team vs sopho

leonard vs neal, splitter, anderson... :D:D

[G-Dawgg]

Leonard vs Singleton? Leonard is the better player. His superior rebounding, offence and potential for improvement alone make this an easy choice for me...

[TJastal]

Why don't we let the guy play before we claim someone is better or worse than him ? The boy is really young. He has a lot of time to develop his game.

Some guys here are so negative it's sad. Sometimes it looks like they just want the guy to suck just to prove their points. It's pretty pathetic.

So where was your whiny ass when dumbasses were starting threads claiming Leonard to be the next Lebron, Gerald Wallace, Shawn Marion, Bruce Bowen, etc etc etc?

Ahh, right you were probably singing the praises right along with the choir. Friggin' hypocrite.

[TJastal]

How do all you dipshit Spurs fans even put up with this dipshit TJastal. Is this pendejo for real?

I bet you didn't like JJ Barea before this season and now you're riding his pene like un perro está en celo, verdad?

[TJastal]

Nuh uh, don't try moving the goalposts. This argument was about the better defender/rebounder, not best basketball player.


http://www.nbadraft.net/players/chris-singleton
http://www.nbadraft.net/players/kawhi-leonard
Chris Singleton defensive rating: 10
Kawhi Leonard defensive rating: 7

A lot have said Chris Singleton has elite defensive talent. Yeah, the report on Leonard is he's a good defender, but you didn't hear anything predraft about Leonard being an elite lock down defender down the road.



I'd even say you're being very kind to Singleton by giving him a 6 offensively. He'll be an offensive liability until (assuming he ever does) develop a consistent shot defenses need to respect. He'll never be a threat off the dribble/in the post. Leonard is undoubtedly much better than Singleton with the ball in his hands, but he's not good enough where he'll be taking the ball out of Parker and Manu's hands.

I'd say Kawhi is the better overall basketball player, but IMO Singleton can have more of an impact without touching the ball.


This would be relevant if we're talking 5 years down the road. Since the Spurs' primary goal for the near future is putting a better supporting cast around the big 3 so they can contend again, it really doesn't matter that Kawhi is younger. If anything, it means he's gonna need more time, time Duncan and Manu don't have.

Good point at the end there. I'm also assuming the spurs are going to try to contend again next year, and not throw in the towel and start rebuilding. Why would you take a friggin 19 year old? It makes no sense.

Singleton is bigger (6'9"), stronger, faster... he can easily play either SF or PF in nba while Leonard will struggle in that role IMO. He has mad hops and runs the floor extremely well and will be one of the best trailers/finishers in the nba, especially with John Wall pushing the pace and dropping off passes for him to throw down.

I believe Singleton will pay immediate dividends (especially on the defensive end) while Leonard will be a work in progress for many years. Just another kick in the teeth for Tim Duncan (courtesy Pop/FO).

[mountainballer]

history can teach you some things.
about the draft it teaches you that it's impossible to for sure predict the career and fit of a player AND it teaches that especially in the mid of the first round you have the most significant split between the eventual careers of players.
(I guess that's because on the one hand top talent might trop to that region, if there are some questions and on the other hand many teams start to pick "need and fit" at the end of the lottery over talent)
however, look at almost any draft and you learn this.
(nice example: 2005 from #15 to #18, the picks of Leonard and Singleton, 4 SFs were picked. Wright, Graham, Granger and Green. one is an all star and franchise player, 3 are out of the league or on their way out)

one thing you learn from draft history: being a top defender in college is not enough. (see Corey Brewer for example). the other thing you learn: defense is something you can learn. talent not. some of the best defenders in the NBA didn't enter the league with the reputation of a top defender. (or with the projected potential to become one. see Tayshaun Prince).
so, if you have 2 players and call one the better player and the other the better defender, you should always go with the better player.

[TJastal]

history can teach you some things.
about the draft it teaches you that it's impossible to for sure predict the career and fit of a player AND it teaches that especially in the mid of the first round you have the most significant split between the eventual careers of players.
(I guess that's because on the one hand top talent might trop to that region, if there are some questions and on the other hand many teams start to pick "need and fit" at the end of the lottery over talent)
however, look at almost any draft and you learn this.
(nice example: 2005 from #15 to #18, the picks of Leonard and Singleton, 4 SFs were picked. Wright, Graham, Granger and Green. one is an all star and franchise player, 3 are out of the league or on their way out)

one thing you learn from draft history: being a top defender in college is not enough. (see Corey Brewer for example). the other thing you learn: defense is something you can learn. talent not. some of the best defenders in the NBA didn't enter the league with the reputation of a top defender. (or with the projected potential to become one. see Tayshaun Prince).
so, if you have 2 players and call one the better player and the other the better defender, you should always go with the better player.

If this is true, then Bruce Bowen's ill-begotten career as a spur was a failure

[ChuckD]

If this is true, then Bruce Bowen's ill-begotten career as a spur was a failure

Strawman. Bowen was already a 30 YO vet with one All Defensive team, and a career 35 3G% under his belt. We're talking about prospects.

[TJastal]

Strawman. Bowen was already a 30 YO vet with one All Defensive team, and a career 35 3G% under his belt. We're talking about prospects.

Yup, missed that one.

[TJastal]

Still think its a baloney theory that's ass-backwards.. offense can be learned just as easily if not easier... shooting 3's, post moves, free throws, dribbling, passing, etc etc etc

Defense is more about physical attributes you come into the league with IMO.

[TJastal]

Corey Brewer at 6'9" 185 lbs was never going to be able to dominate defensively like he did in college unless he gained weight in the pros. Which he never did. Just kind of backs up my theory, tbh.

Singleton at 6'9" 230 lbs I really don't think is going to have too much trouble transitioning to the pros.

[mountainballer]

Brewer was a #7 pick. he wasn't picked ahead of Noah b/c of his shooting, ball handling, scoring, passing. it was only his reputation as the best defender in the NCAA.
if weight or "physical attributes" were the only crucial point, the careers of players like Christie and Prince as premium defenders wouldn't have lasted for long.
not every top defender has a body like Artest or Bowen. oh wait, Bruce was just..............185??????????????????????

[TJastal]

Brewer was a #7 pick. he wasn't picked ahead of Noah b/c of his shooting, ball handling, scoring, passing. it was only his reputation as the best defender in the NCAA.
if weight or "physical attributes" were the only crucial point, the careers of players like Christie and Prince as premium defenders wouldn't have lasted for long.
not every top defender has a body like Artest or Bowen. oh wait, Bruce was just..............185??????????????????????

C'mon man.

Christie was 3 inches shorter than Brewer and 15 lbs heavier, and also played the SG position. Christie was big enough to guard anyone at that position and could slide over and guard most SF's (esp back then no Carmelo or Lebron types).

And do you really think Bowen weighed a buck eighty five? Look at that guys' shoulders in some of the pictures floating around the forum. Friggin' neck like a tree stump. There is no way he was less than 210.

[Bruno]

Whether or not Spurs have made the rights picks, they have been great at hiding their hand. For example, there were said to be very high on Nikola Vucevic and they didn't go with him at #15. Cory Joseph was also completely off the radar.

[mountainballer]

I'm pretty sure they had the deal for the #15 pick in place. question is, if Leonard was the original target. almost all mocks had him picked in the top 10.
so Spurs might have changed their strategy when they learned he will still be there. if they used a tier system (like most team do) Leonard might just have been left from a higher tier like Vucevic, who might still have been the basic idea for the #15 pick. and another possible target, Marcus Morris, was gone.
Joseph was definitely an under the radar pick, b/c none expected him to be drafted that high. much like they did with Hill in 2008.

[objective]

Bird's comments (http://www.eightpointsnineseconds.com/2011/06/larry-bird-on-george-hill/) on draft night suggest that there was no deal in place until Leonard fell.


“We talked to them about George the last two years,” said Bird. “We’ve been talking to them the last couple of weeks. And they didn’t know if they had any interest or not … it just happened after the 14th pick. We was [sic] on the line with them and they decided that their player was still there so we made the trade.”

[Bruno]

Bird's comments (http://www.eightpointsnineseconds.com/2011/06/larry-bird-on-george-hill/) on draft night suggest that there was no deal in place until Leonard fell.

I missed these comments on draft night, thanks for posting them.

These comments and rumors about Spurs trying to trade
Hill for #10, #11 or #12 confirms that Spurs really targeted Kawhi Leonard before the draft.

Spurs talk long before the draft about this trade with Pacers which mean it was a well thought trade. Spurs plan was to ask #42 to take Bertans while they would use 29 on Hill's replacement. It's not sure that their first choice was Joseph since it could have been someone drafted earlier (Nolan Smith, Reggie Jackson or Norris Cole). It's also possible that Spurs talked with Lorbek before the draft to know if he would be interested to join Spurs.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Bird's comments (http://www.eightpointsnineseconds.com/2011/06/larry-bird-on-george-hill/) on draft night suggest that there was no deal in place until Leonard fell.

shame how we didnt try talkin to them about one of their bigs since we need size....

granger was always on the trading block, but i doubt we were going to give them anything outside of the big 3 to tempt them

[TJastal]

Whether or not Spurs have made the rights picks, they have been great at hiding their hand. For example, there were said to be very high on Nikola Vucevic and they didn't go with him at #15. Cory Joseph was also completely off the radar.

Oh boy, here we go again... with the CIA Pop bs..

[Thompson]

This past year definitely reinforces the C.I.A. Pop concept.

For instance, we drafted, waited several years for, and finally signed Splitter to a deal only to see Pop sit him all year long in favor of short people. He threw me off with that one.

[TJastal]

This past year definitely reinforces the C.I.A. Pop concept.

For instance, we drafted, waited several years for, and finally signed Splitter to a deal only to see Pop sit him all year long in favor of short people. He threw me off with that one.

It's CIA baby. Heck, Pop's got CIA "sleeper" plans from years ago that are quietly incubating waiting for their day of reveal to all the joyous fans. Trading Scola to the rockets for Spanoulis for example. That one could pay off in a big way down the line.

[EricD]

It's CIA baby. Heck, Pop's got CIA "sleeper" plans from years ago that are quietly incubating waiting for their day of reveal to all the joyous fans. Trading Scola to the rockets for Spanoulis for example. That one could pay off in a big way down the line.

Go get laid or something.

[ChumpDumper]

Doesn't seem like Pop had much to do with the Scola trade tbh.

[TJastal]

Doesn't seem like Pop had much to do with the Scola trade tbh.


"As an organization we felt responsible to let Luis pursue his dream of the NBA and this was the best opportunity to realize his value," said Buford back in 2007. "With our roster intact it would appear unlikely that neither Butler nor Scola would impact our rotation."

[Tyrone Jenkins]

Ok, I'm late...

What the hell is the CIA concept?

[Darkwaters]

Ok, I'm late...

What the hell is the CIA concept?

Plans within plans. Basically, it's the idea that Coach Pop and the front office never telegraph their moves. They often will feign interest in one player but really covet another. Essentially, rumors in the media are almost always false (planted?) and the Spurs are always after another target. Nothing happens by chance, it is all a calculated move.

Thats basically the theory.

[Tyrone Jenkins]

Make sense - I'll buy that.

But what team doesn't do that?

[ChumpDumper]

[quote from not Pop]Thanks for proving my point.

[TJastal]

Thanks for proving my point.


"As an organization we felt responsible to let Luis pursue his dream of the NBA and this was the best opportunity to realize his value," said Buford back in 2007. "With our roster intact it would appear unlikely that neither Butler nor Scola would impact our rotation."

[ChumpDumper]

[repeats quote by not Pop]Thanks again.

[manufan10]

Thanks again.

:lol

[manufan10]

I'd like to see Kawhi in some kind of NBA action before I come out and say the Spurs should have taken someone else. There's a reason why those guys get paid to do what they do, and why we don't. They know what they're doing, so I'll trust them with the move.

[Tyrone Jenkins]

I'd like to see Kawhi in some kind of NBA action before I come out and say the Spurs should have taken someone else. There's a reason why those guys get paid to do what they do, and why we don't. They know what they're doing, so I'll trust them with the move.

Agreed. Leonard was pretty much the consensus best PURE SF on the board (if you don't consider Williams or either of the Texas twins a SF). I was high on Singleton due to his height but think Leonard might prove to be a better choice due to his strength.

[Buddy Holly]

TJastal still being a lame as turd weeks after the draft.

Did ya have fun at Splashtown yesterday? Did ya get Hill's autograph?

[spursncowboys]

Darko Milicic = the next Sabonis. Michael Olowokandi = the next Patrick Ewing.
Don't forget their praise for Christian Laettner

[jjktkk]

TJastal still being a lame as turd weeks after the draft.

Did ya have fun at Splashtown yesterday? Did ya get Hill's autograph?

Nobody does stupid like tjastal. Ron White would be impressed.

[Darius McCrary]

should get some timvp thoughts on leonard in this thread

[pjjrfan]

i like neal but going from what I saw this past season, Neal is not a very good ball handler he is adequate in making a move to get himself open for a shot but he is not a consistently good playmaker or ballhandler. I can't believe that Pop would start Leonard at t he 4, he might see some minues there when they go small, but I think this guy will be the starting forward by the end of the season. Unless POp loses all confidence in Leonard early, which might happen, Jefferson will have to really step up his game to keep his job. I don't see that happening, Jefferson is the whiniest guy on the team.

[TJastal]

i like neal but going from what I saw this past season, Neal is not a very good ball handler he is adequate in making a move to get himself open for a shot but he is not a consistently good playmaker or ballhandler. I can't believe that Pop would start Leonard at t he 4, he might see some minues there when they go small, but I think this guy will be the starting forward by the end of the season. Unless POp loses all confidence in Leonard early, which might happen, Jefferson will have to really step up his game to keep his job. I don't see that happening, Jefferson is the whiniest guy on the team.

Leonard will not see the starting lineup unless he can hit a corner 3 and shoot at least 40% from beyond the arc. And that is highly unlikely given he shot 29% from college range.

[TJastal]

Unless Pop is crazy enough to try to play him at the 4, but I think that would be a major disaster.

[Kindergarten Cop]

Leonard will not see the starting lineup unless he can hit a corner 3 and shoot at least 40% from beyond the arc. And that is highly unlikely given he shot 29% from college range.

I didn't agree with all of the premature Bowen comparisons right after Leonard was drafted, but Bowen himself was a career 28% three point shooter in college.

[Bruno]

should get some timvp thoughts on leonard in this thread

http://pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=65793

[Buddy Holly]

Leonard will not see the starting lineup unless he can hit a corner 3 and shoot at least 40% from beyond the arc.

Like the all amazing Richard Jefferson and his 36% career three point shooting? :lol


And that is highly unlikely given he shot 29% from college range.

And Bruce Bowen was worse. :lol

[objective]

http://pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=65793

i noticed that a few days ago. Is that really timvp? Because one of his posts on Lorbek is a near word-for-word rip of one of your posts . . .

timvp = bruno ? :lol

[Darius McCrary]

http://pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=65793
he hardly said anything about Leonard. he was supposed to give us the goods on our new prospects and with it being dead season we could use some perspective on them to bs about it

[TJastal]

I didn't agree with all of the premature Bowen comparisons right after Leonard was drafted, but Bowen himself was a career 28% three point shooter in college.

Bowen also worked his ass off to develop a 3pt shot. He also has normal size hands, not hands the size of toilet seats. Large hands are good for rebounding but they suck for shooting. That's why Shaq could never shoot outside of 8 feet.

[TJastal]

Like the all amazing Richard Jefferson and his 36% career three point shooting? :lol



And Bruce Bowen was worse. :lol

Richard Jefferson also worked his ass off with Pop this past summer to develop his corner 3pt shot. He also has normal size hands, not hands the size of toilet seats. Large hands are good for rebounding but they suck for shooting. That's why Shaq could never shoot outside of 8 feet.

[ChuckD]

Tim has extremely large hands. Next.

[elemento]

Michael Jordan also has huge hands. Next

[TJastal]

Tim has extremely large hands. Next.

Shaq size hands? Don't think so.

[TJastal]

Michael Jordan also has huge hands. Next

Shaq size hands? Don't think so.

[ChumpDumper]

:lmao

The big hands myth again?

That never fails to amuse.

[TJastal]

:lmao

The big hands myth again?

That never fails to amuse.


http://swishscout.com/?page_id=2405


The biggest gift and curse to his game is his enormous hands, which greatly contribute to his rebounding prowess, but will always inhibit his shooting abilities


Shooting mechanics are not smooth (elbow bowed outside and has a hitch on release), has oversized hands that could plague his shooting accuracy throughout his career


[The biggest concern for his game offensively is shooting the ball, where he is always going to lag behind because of his hand size. He has decent touch when he gets in the lane and pulling up from midrange, but gets severely limited from about 18 feet and out. The NBA 3′s for him will probably be few and far between, as he only had 25 makes from NCAA 3 pt. range as a sophomore


The biggest challenge to his game will be improving his perimeter shooting consistency. The biggest barrier to this will be his enormous hands, which won’t fit into a 2XL football glove. They are enormous, and players like Shaquille O’Neal and Rajon Rondo have faced career shooting woes due to oversized hands. For him, shooting a basketball is like trying to shoot a tennis ball and it will always be an issue, but he will improve. With big hands, he has more surface area on the ball with less control, which can be too much in effect and misguide the ball consistently on release. A lot of smaller players are at an advantage shooting the ball because their hands cover a smaller, more guided and direct area that allows them to hit with greater accuracy. It’s a complicated explanation about why big hands are a disadvantage shooting the ball, but the percentages don’t lie for the players who have them

[ChuckD]

Shaq's biggest issue wasn't his hands, it was his poorly healed wrist that he broke in childhood. With his form, it wouldn't have mattered if his hands were Lady Gaga sized.

Yao had huge hands.

[ChumpDumper]

I fully accept TJastal's being a swish scout.

[wildbill2u]

It's always amazing to see the myths develop and take hold in the popular mind.

Myth: Bowen was a dead-eye 3 pt shooter who was extremely important for his performance in making 3 pt. shots in almost every game.

Facts: Bowen was pretty good percentage-wise with a career average of 39.3% BUT in his career he only made 0.9 3 pt shots per game and only took an average of 2.4 3s per game. Yes, that's right. He made less than one shot per game.

He was slightly better at regular FG percentage at .409% average--but that is at the low end of acceptable NBA FG. average. He was terrible at putting the ball on the floor and driving to the hoop. He only made 2.2 FGs per game average.

And his FT shooting was absymal at .575%. Of course he shot very few per game at .7 made out of 1.2attempts. This low FT attempt stat is probably because he was shy about going into the lane.

Let's face it. Bowen was a defensive specialist--period.

[quentin_compson]

Let's face it. Bowen was a defensive specialist--period.

Sure he was. But he wasn't an offensive liability: He had his corner three and was smart enough not to take bad shots most of the time.

[ChumpDumper]

Bruce must have big hands.

[Tyrone Jenkins]

It's always amazing to see the myths develop and take hold in the popular mind.

Myth: Bowen was a dead-eye 3 pt shooter who was extremely important for his performance in making 3 pt. shots in almost every game.

Facts: Bowen was pretty good percentage-wise with a career average of 39.3% BUT in his career he only made 0.9 3 pt shots per game and only took an average of 2.4 3s per game. Yes, that's right. He made less than one shot per game.

He was slightly better at regular FG percentage at .409% average--but that is at the low end of acceptable NBA FG. average. He was terrible at putting the ball on the floor and driving to the hoop. He only made 2.2 FGs per game average.

And his FT shooting was absymal at .575%. Of course he shot very few per game at .7 made out of 1.2attempts. This low FT attempt stat is probably because he was shy about going into the lane.

Let's face it. Bowen was a defensive specialist--period.

only KINDA true...

The .9 % includes years not playing for SA where did rarely shot at all. His true 3pt made per game % is a little better w/ SA at about 1.2%.

More important, he averaged about 6.5 pt per game from 2001-08 for a team that was among the league lowest in scoring. He was usually somewhere around 5th, 6th or 7th in most minutes per game and averaged being 6th-8th on the team in scoring.

[yavozerb]

Kid made 110 out of 145 free throws last season which was 76%. Not bad for someone with big hands I guess...Tony also shot 76% from the FT line this past season. Just saying..

[TJastal]

Kid made 110 out of 145 free throws last season which was 76%. Not bad for someone with big hands I guess...Tony also shot 76% from the FT line this past season. Just saying..

No doubt he'll be good at the midrange jumper. I just don't think he'll be able to play in the starting lineup because his job would be to space the floor, which will be a problem. He'll defenitely have a solid role on the team backing up Jefferson and maybe some small ball 4 in certain situations.

[ChuckD]

No doubt he'll be good at the midrange jumper. I just don't think he'll be able to play in the starting lineup because his job would be to space the floor, which will be a problem. He'll defenitely have a solid role on the team backing up Jefferson and maybe some small ball 4 in certain situations.

So, you play him with Bonner. Matt spaces the floor and Kawhi takes the Dice type midrange shots. He can rebound extremely well, covering for Bonner's lack, and then turn around and guard a 2 or a 3 on defense.

[TJastal]

So, you play him with Bonner. Matt spaces the floor and Kawhi takes the Dice type midrange shots. He can rebound extremely well, covering for Bonner's lack, and then turn around and guard a 2 or a 3 on defense.

Personally, I'd much rather see him playing small ball 4 with Tiago or Blair at the expense of Bonner's minutes rather than the other way around.

I was pretty much done with the Bonner experiment back in 2008.

[Darius McCrary]

if we don't play Leonard then the Spurs are a joke. The Memphis Grizzlies made the second round of the playoffs by starting a defensive oriented rookie with next to zero offensive game. Spurs greatest need is at the 3. He should get 18 minutes a game at least his entire first season, period.

[ChuckD]

Personally, I'd much rather see him playing small ball 4 with Tiago or Blair at the expense of Bonner's minutes rather than the other way around.

I was pretty much done with the Bonner experiment back in 2008.

That's why you see his minutes as limited. Those lineups really couldn't space the floor.

[wildbill2u]

only KINDA true...

The .9 % includes years not playing for SA where did rarely shot at all. His true 3pt made per game % is a little better w/ SA at about 1.2%.

More important, he averaged about 6.5 pt per game from 2001-08 for a team that was among the league lowest in scoring. He was usually somewhere around 5th, 6th or 7th in most minutes per game and averaged being 6th-8th on the team in scoring.

You would often see teams leaving Bruce all alone in his corner because they could afford to risk his occasional three. And he almost never drove to the basket or was a threat to do so if he caught the ball in the corner, so he wasn't going to get many foul shots either. Because he shot so seldom and was such a poor offensive threat he could be ignored.

Essentially the Spurs had to go four on five a lot of the time on offense because their opponents would have the man who was ostensibly guarding Bruce cheat over to the lane to help close down drives by Manu and Tony.

An argument can be made that Bruce's low offensive production and lack of a true perimeter threat was responsible for bringing Bonner in. Bonner could definitely help space the floor with his better outside shooting.

[The Truth #6]

That's why you see his minutes as limited. Those lineups really couldn't space the floor.

I think that strategy might make sense on paper as far as the regular season. But in the playoffs I think we've seen that Bonner is not effective. And so knowing that, the team needs to approach the regular season as a way to get ready for the playoffs - and not just by focusing on regular season victories. We saw how that turned out.

[BackHome]

That is why I am excited to see Alexander get some minutes the guy can create his own shot off the dribble and can hit the set shot as well. I think him at the 2 and Kawhi at the 3 gives us offense and defense and both will work well with each other.

[ChuckD]

That is why I am excited to see Alexander get some minutes the guy can create his own shot off the dribble and can hit the set shot as well. I think him at the 2 and Kawhi at the 3 gives us offense and defense and both will work well with each other.

Alexander can't defend the NBA 2 position.

[TJastal]

Dont be shocked if Dice retires if SA roles him out as the starting 4. We drafted him to play small, not to bench RJ.

Pop rolling back into small ball mode for the majority of every game would probably not be a good trend to see.

If he's starting alongside RJ opening day the then Tim Duncan might as well give AFLAC a call. He may have a great "motor" but he's too short & skinny and will get pushed around by most starting 4's in the league. I only advocated the spurs using him as a small ball 4 in favorable matchups and only in the 2nd unit.

And I'd bet good money if Leonard is starting alongside Jefferson then it will be Jefferson guarding the other teams' 4 in most cases, not Leonard.

Pop's probably fapping to the thought of all the possibilities already.

[ChumpDumper]

Tim has extremely large hands. Next.


Michael Jordan also has huge hands. Next


Shaq size hands? Don't think so.http://media1.dashwire.com/media/aRzQpwd0Cr3z9eadbimNyZ/dlaPVoyqKr3RO6adbiFTTI-large.jpg

Does Leonard have Shaq size hands, TJ?

Yes or no.

[Blake]

Jason Kidd might.

:lol wow

[GB20]

http://media1.dashwire.com/media/aRzQpwd0Cr3z9eadbimNyZ/dlaPVoyqKr3RO6adbiFTTI-large.jpg

Does Leonard have Shaq size hands, TJ?

Yes or no.
tim duncan has long fingers!:wow

[Lukor]

Leonard better contribute fast or it might not matter, Timmy's legs are about to fall off.

[TJastal]

http://media1.dashwire.com/media/aRzQpwd0Cr3z9eadbimNyZ/dlaPVoyqKr3RO6adbiFTTI-large.jpg

Does Leonard have Shaq size hands, TJ?

Yes or no.

You don't believe he does apparently? I think so. And making things worse is the fact that Leonard's hands are slender with long fingers which makes the problem even worse, harder to control where the ball rolls off.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/745189-2011-nba-draft-grades-grading-the-teams-and-picks-of-the-nba-draft/entry/100643-2011-nba-draft-results-kawhi-leonards-huge-hands-a-problem-for-spurs


Now I think he’ll still do well in the NBA, but every player that’s ever had too big of hands has almost always had difficulty shooting the basketball.

[TJastal]

tim duncan has long fingers!:wow

And that's why he often has trouble shooting free throws.

[ChuckD]

And that's why he often has trouble shooting free throws.

Tim's problems with FTs are all between his ears.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You don't believe he does apparently? I think so. And making things worse is the fact that Leonard's hands are slender with long fingers which makes the problem even worse, harder to control where the ball rolls off.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/745189-2011-nba-draft-grades-grading-the-teams-and-picks-of-the-nba-draft/entry/100643-2011-nba-draft-results-kawhi-leonards-huge-hands-a-problem-for-spurs

Are you really trying to say that long fingers limit manual dexterity?


every player that’s ever had too big of hands has almost always had

You are an idiot.

[ChumpDumper]

You don't believe he does apparently? I think so.You think Leonard's hands are as big as Shaq's. That really says all that's need to be said about your player hating.


And making things worse is the fact that Leonard's hands are slender with long fingers which makes the problem even worse, harder to control where the ball rolls off.You just said he had Shaq like hands. Shaq's hands are not slender.

You can't even keep your own bullshit straight.

[ChumpDumper]

Slender with long fingers, you say?

http://assets2.indy.com/photos/266017/show.jpg

[GB20]

his ft problems are all in his legs and arc. He shoots line drive, he has his right foot angled to his left and shoulders square.

He would be better off shooting like rick berry.
+1

[Darius McCrary]

its really cool that timvp gives opinions on pacers websites meanwhile this site has been decaying at an exponential rate real fucking really cool