ESPN 5 on 5 - possible foreign HOF's

[cantthinkofanything]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=5-on-5-110712

Here's Manu and Parker. Article also mentions Yao, Gasol, and Sabonis

2. Is Manu Ginobili a Hall of Famer?



David Thorpe, Scouts Inc.: He is, indeed. Manu's savvy scoring talents worked perfectly within the Spurs' system, and his passing gifts allowed the Spurs to employ a score-first point guard. Tim Duncan is a top-10 player historically, but Ginobili was a perfect scoring guard to pair with him as well, thanks to excellent shot selection and a huge heart. Few players at that position were better than Manu in his prime, and all who were will be Hall of Famers, too.
Jay Aych, The Painted Area: Absolutely. Manu's NBA stats and accolades stack up favorably compared to Joe Dumars'. Would Ginobili get into an NBA-only HOF? Probably, but that's debatable. When you take into consideration his European accomplishments pre-NBA and his success with the Argentine national team, Manu is a lock next to Bill Bradley, the only player to win Olympic gold, Euroleague title and NBA title.
Rob Mahoney, The Two Man Game: Absolutely. What Ginobili's résumé lacks in longevity, it makes up for it with a string of incredible successes. From 2002-07, Ginobili became an All-Star, posted an average player efficiency rating of 21.1, won three NBA titles, championed Argentina to a gold medal in the Olympic games and led his team to a second-place finish in the FIBA World Championship. Throw that Ginobili did for the "euro step" in the NBA what Allen Iverson did for the crossover, and he certainly qualifies as a basketball luminary.
Jonathan Santiago, Cowbell Kingdom: Ginobili has been a key cog on each of the Spurs' championship teams of the past decade. And internationally, he led a team that dethroned the United States in the Olympics for the first time since the U.S. started sending professionals.


Jared Wade, 8 Points In 9 Seconds: Yes. He won three NBA titles, an Olympic gold medal, a Euroleague title and an Italian league title. Individually, he has two All-NBA selections, a Sixth Man award, a Euroleague MVP and a few Italian league MVPs. On pure talent, he is no Kobe or Dwyane. He's not even Drexler or Dumars. But he is so accomplished that he gets the nod.


4. Is Tony Parker a Hall of Famer?


David Thorpe, Scouts Inc.: Yes. It's not just the rings, either. For years, Parker has literally been one of the top paint scorers in the league. Try these numbers on for size: In the past five seasons, Parker has never made less than 62.7 percent of his rim shots, while current MVP Derrick Rose made 60 percent of his last season, his best showing ever. When a team's point guard can get to the rim and finish like Parker can, everything else on offense flows so much more easily. Inch for inch and pound for pound, Parker had a stretch as probably the most potent offensive weapon in the NBA.
Jay Aych, The Painted Area: Obviously his NBA career has a lot in common with Ginobili's, so I'll say yes. Parker is maybe the best international point guard ever after Steve Nash. He also was a key figure on three NBA title teams and was Finals MVP in 2007. However, he does not have quite the résumé that Manu and Pau have in FIBA play.
Rob Mahoney, The Two Man Game: Maybe. Parker's career, more than that of any other player included in this space, depends on the years to come. Like Ginobili, Parker is a three-time champion. He also has a trio of All-Star appearances to his name and a handful of highly productive seasons. But Parker has yet to reach the heights that Ginobili once claimed and hasn't had the same level of international success. Parker may be a Hall of Famer yet, but he's not quite there.
Jonathan Santiago, Cowbell Kingdom: I'm iffy about Parker because unlike Tim Duncan and Manu Ginobili, he's never really won as the focal point of a team. Duncan has always been the centerpiece of all the Spurs' championship teams, and Ginobili, as I said earlier, led Argentina to a gold-medal victory in the Olympics. With that said, he's probably a Hall of Famer simply by being the most decorated basketball player to emerge from France.
Jared Wade, 8 Points In 9 Seconds: Nope. He is a huge step below both Manu and Pau in talent and can't come close to matching their decorated international careers. I'm not even sure there is a legitimate case to be made for Parker, unless perhaps you think Chauncey Billups or Horace Grant is a Hall of Famer.

[Ozzy]

Every time I read that I actually get sad about how Argentina lost the 2002 World Championship final... Otherwise Manu would really have a fully completed set... Nice that somebody actually mentioned his WC silver.

(I was actually rooting for Yugoslavia then, but now I wish that it turned out differently.)

[DesignatedT]

They are both HOFs

[cantthinkofanything]

They are both HOFs

I agree, except for Parker.

[nickdaquick]

I believe that if Yao is in the HOF then Parker should be as well. They have close to equal stats and both are pioneers for their country in the NBA. Yao is more of a pioneer by TP has 3 rings to Yao's 0. Plus he was a finals MVP.

[cantthinkofanything]

I believe that if Yao is in the HOF then Parker should be as well. They have close to equal stats and both are pioneers for their country in the NBA. Yao is more of a pioneer by TP has 3 rings to Yao's 0. Plus he was a finals MVP.

I don't put Parker over Yao. Parker played next to two other HOF's to get his three rings. Similar to Kukoc. Spurs would have same amount of rings without Parker.

[patos]

They are both HOFs

i think parker is not a HOF, he is important but not the best



I agree, except for Parker.
I agree

[DPG21920]

Manu likely yes, TP likely no.

[nickdaquick]

I don't put Parker over Yao. Parker played next to two other HOF's to get his three rings. Similar to Kukoc. Spurs would have same amount of rings without Parker.

I don't put Parker over Yao skill and talent wise but Yao only played 4 seasons where he played at least 75% of the games! How can you you put that kind of player in the HOF? He had to be dominate when he was playing and he had to have a major impact off the court or he had to have been the main option on multiple championship teams.

While Parker does play with two HOF players he was a big part of each of those championship teams. The Spurs would not have won the championship two of those years had he not played. Basically TP makes up for the talent with health and championships and that at least puts him even with Yao as far HOF is concerned.

LOL comparing him to Kukoc, TP is WAY better to Toni.

[cantthinkofanything]

I don't put Parker over Yao skill and talent wise but Yao only played 4 seasons where he played at least 75% of the games! How can you you put that kind of player in the HOF? He had to be dominate when he was playing and he had to have a major impact off the court or he had to have been the main option on multiple championship teams.

While Parker does play with two HOF players he was a big part of each of those championship teams. The Spurs would not have won the championship two of those years had he not played. Basically TP makes up for the talent with health and championships and that at least puts him even with Yao as far HOF is concerned.

LOL comparing him to Kukoc, TP is WAY better to Toni.

Yao did dominate when he played. More than Parker. He also had a much bigger impact off the court. What impact has Parker had?

Not saying Kukoc was better than Tony. Just saying that they were both replaceable pieces on championship teams.

[Franklin]

Not saying Kukoc was better than Tony.

That statement gave me a hearty chuckle.

[Bill_Brasky]

Manu is definitely gonna get in, but Tony needs a little more IMO.....another ring would help.

[manufan10]

For sure Manu gets in. As others have stated, TP still needs some work. Maybe one more ring, or maybe a few more all-star seasons.

[nickdaquick]

Yao did dominate when he played. More than Parker. He also had a much bigger impact off the court. What impact has Parker had?

Not saying Kukoc was better than Tony. Just saying that they were both replaceable pieces on championship teams.

Yes Yao is irreplaceable. You saw that everytime he didn't play, which was a lot of games/years! Yao has only played 486 games (now he's retired) compared to TP's 746 games (with many more to come). Like I said before, Yao is much more talented than Tony but he hardly played. If Yao came from France would he still be a HOF? The reason why Yao is so popular is because he is the first star from his country (just like Tony is) and his country has the highest population in the world.

Parker has made an impact on French basketball. All you have to do is see how popular he is in the country and the amount of good players coming in the league from France now (Diaw, Batum and Beaubois) as compared to french players before TP (Tariq Abdul-Wahad and Jerome Moiso).

While his impact off the court isn't as large as Yao's, his on the court performance surely makes up for that difference. BTW would you call TP replaceable while he won the the finals MVP (granted it was controversal but he still did dominate that series)?

[DesignatedT]

Tony is still 4 years younger then Manu. He still has a lot of basketball ahead of him.

At the end of their careers Parker will have more Pts, Assits, Rebounds, Steals, Higher FG% then Manu. Also has more All-Team NBA selections, More All-Star appearances and an NBA Finals MVP. His NBA #s far outweigh Manu's

Parker could have been Italian League MVP or Spanish League MVP or whatever if he played in those leagues, but he didn't. He still deserves to be in though.

Manus gold medal is what sets him apart but Argentina had a great squad all around when they won, it wasn't Manu doing absolutely everything. Luis Scola was absolutely fantastic during that run.

Manu was definitely a better player then Tony in there primes but Tony still deserves to be in and his accomplishments in the NBA show that.

[DesignatedT]

Spurs would have same amount of rings without Parker.


Another prime example of Spur fan underrating, and underappreciating Tony Parker.

[cantthinkofanything]

Parker has made an impact on French basketball. All you have to do is see how popular he is in the country and the amount of good players coming in the league from France now (Diaw, Batum and Beaubois) as compared to french players before TP (Tariq Abdul-Wahad and Jerome Moiso).

While his impact off the court isn't as large as Yao's, his on the court performance surely makes up for that difference. BTW would you call TP replaceable while he won the the finals MVP (granted it was controversal but he still did dominate that series)?

You're giving credit to Parker for the rise in talent from French players? I think that's a result of the increase in global popularity of bball. Due to the increase in exposure of NBA stars. In particular, MJ and the dream team.

[cantthinkofanything]

Another prime example of Spur fan underrating, and underappreciating Tony Parker.

The Spurs stopped winning rings after Tim and Manu peaked. Not Parker.

[DesignatedT]

The Spurs stopped winning rings after Tim and Manu peaked. Not Parker.

Duncan would have won the 03 title without either of them. The combo of the 3 won us the last 2 and has gave us 50+ wins every season.

They're all important and all make each other better.

[nickdaquick]

You're giving credit to Parker for the rise in talent from French players? I think that's a result of the increase in global popularity of bball. Due to the increase in exposure of NBA stars. In particular, MJ and the dream team.

Yes, Parker most definately is a big part of that. Sure MJ has something to do with it as well as Kobe, Magic and Bird. But Parker was the first to break through the ice as a French star and that gives other French basketball players more confidence that they can succeed in the NBA just like Tony.

[SA210]

Manu is the man :tu

[Proxy]

Jared Wade, 8 Points In 9 Seconds: Yes. He won three NBA titles, an Olympic gold medal, a Euroleague title and an Italian league title. Individually, he has two All-NBA selections, a Sixth Man award, a Euroleague MVP and a few Italian league MVPs. On pure talent, he is no Kobe or Dwyane. He's not even Drexler or Dumars. But he is so accomplished that he gets the nod.


This guy is a fat bitch fucker who downgrades foreigners due to their style of play. Saying that Manu isn't better than Drexler or Dumars is retarded. He went through healthy stretches where he was just as unstoppable as Wade and Kobe... so based on PURE TALENT (as this statement nullifies injuries), Manu IS just as effective as any SG the post-MJ generation.

[Proxy]

The Spurs stopped winning rings after Tim and Manu peaked. Not Parker.

cosign

[cd98]

The Spurs stopped winning rings after Tim and Manu peaked. Not Parker.

Parker looked pretty instrumental in 2007.

[Nick Manning]

Parker looked pretty instrumental in 2007.

Stephen motherfuckin Hawking at the point would've been enough to beat those Cavs...and Jazz, and Nuggets.

They needed him for 2003 and 2005 though.

[Sean Cagney]

Manu yes, Parker has a ways to go.

[DesignatedT]

Stephen motherfuckin Hawking at the point would've been enough to beat those Cavs...and Jazz, and Nuggets.

They needed him for 2003 and 2005 though.

You could take any 1 of the big 3 off the 07 team and we still would have beaten the Cavs.

[jsandiego]

If Tony Parker were a member of the "Big 3" for a 3-time world champion Lakers or Celtics teams, he would be in without question.

Winners should make the HOF.

[cantthinkofanything]

This guy is a fat bitch fucker who downgrades foreigners due to their style of play. Saying that Manu isn't better than Drexler or Dumars is retarded. He went through healthy stretches where he was just as unstoppable as Wade and Kobe... so based on PURE TALENT (as this statement nullifies injuries), Manu IS just as effective as any SG the post-MJ generation.

You're a lying prick. i don't know where you got that post above but it wasn't me.

[gospursgojas]

Manu's a lock, to voters however I dont see tony as a lock. I think TP deserves it.

BTW Tony's been the best Spur since 07...just sayin

[TJastal]

You're a lying prick. i don't know where you got that post above but it wasn't me.


It's right at the bottom of your OP, plain as day.

[cantthinkofanything]

It's right at the bottom of your OP, plain as day.

oohhhhh. so this is what it feels like to be a dumbass

[Nick Manning]

oohhhhh. so this is what it feels like to be a dumbass

I don't know why, but this cat makes me laugh

[TJastal]

oohhhhh. so this is what it feels like to be a dumbass

Maybe you've just been blocking out the feeling all these years.

[SA210]

This guy is a fat bitch fucker who downgrades foreigners due to their style of play. Saying that Manu isn't better than Drexler or Dumars is retarded. He went through healthy stretches where he was just as unstoppable as Wade and Kobe... so based on PURE TALENT (as this statement nullifies injuries), Manu IS just as effective as any SG the post-MJ generation.

:tu

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Manu's a lock, to voters however I dont see tony as a lock. I think TP deserves it.

BTW Tony's been the best Spur since 07...just sayin

Just in time for their decline

just sayin

[024]

A couple more all star selections should put Parker in the hall. Shouldn't be too hard now that deron williams has been booted to the east and cp3 is already half way out of NO.

[mathbzh]

Just in time for their decline

just sayin

First I think Ginobili should be a lock for the HOF when Parker may deserve to get in.

But your argument is a fallacy.

Parker was not responsible for being the youngest player in a core that would won 3 rings.

Since 2007 not only Duncan and Ginobili have declined:
- Bowen has not been replaced
- Horry have ginger hairs
- Finley lives in a Geriatric Hospital
...
Spurs defense is now an old tale to be told sat around the fire.

When you focus only on their NBA careers, Manu and Parker are players with very similar credential and IMO belongs to the same tier of players.

[jimo2305]

manu being in the HOF shouldn't even be debatable.. he's accomplished more than at least 90% of what ball players have around the world.. he's a well decorated international superstar in this sport

[TJastal]

A couple more all star selections should put Parker in the hall. Shouldn't be too hard now that deron williams has been booted to the east and cp3 is already half way out of NO.

Westbrook & Conley say hi

[mathbzh]

Westbrook & Conley say hi

Conley?

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

lol Conley

[cantthinkofanything]

LOL at Conley. But I'd trade TP for him in an instant.

[ambchang]

International Players currently playing/played in the NBA:

Sure fire HoF:
Dirk Nowitzki
Arvydas Sabonis
Manu Ginobili
Steve Nash
Pau Gasol
Yao Ming (trailblazer)

Maybe:
Luis Scola (based solely on his international game, but even that is unlikely)
Toni Kukoc (is he there yet?)
Dikembe Mutombo
Tony Parker

[Cane]

Parker's not an instant-lock but he'll make the HOF. He's got enough accolades, wins, and international presence to be worthy of the honor. FWIW Parker was one of the fastest and best layup artists the league has seen imo.



If Tony Parker were a member of the "Big 3" for a 3-time world champion Lakers or Celtics teams, he would be in without question.

Winners should make the HOF.

Ain't that the truth. Like Parker said the Spurs Big 3 would be hailed as basketball gods if they were in NYC or some other big market.


Manu's a lock, to voters however I dont see tony as a lock. I think TP deserves it.

BTW Tony's been the best Spur since 07...just sayin

Parker had one truly great season where he I'd say he was the best Spur which was back in 08-09. But thats about it.

[Horse]

Yes Yao is irreplaceable. You saw that everytime he didn't play, which was a lot of games/years! Yao has only played 486 games (now he's retired) compared to TP's 746 games (with many more to come). Like I said before, Yao is much more talented than Tony but he hardly played. If Yao came from France would he still be a HOF? The reason why Yao is so popular is because he is the first star from his country (just like Tony is) and his country has the highest population in the world.

Parker has made an impact on French basketball. All you have to do is see how popular he is in the country and the amount of good players coming in the league from France now (Diaw, Batum and Beaubois) as compared to french players before TP (Tariq Abdul-Wahad and Jerome Moiso).

While his impact off the court isn't as large as Yao's, his on the court performance surely makes up for that difference. BTW would you call TP replaceable while he won the the finals MVP (granted it was controversal but he still did dominate that series)?
I don't get how people are saying Tony's not that talented. He's the best finisher i've ever seen besides maybe iverson. Fuck yao all he ever did was get hurt. Houston was never a serious threat to win shit. And maybe Tony would not be MVP of the 07 playoffs. But for the finals I don't see controvery he did whatever he wanted, scored at will and for 4 games was the best player on the court.

[Anonymous Cowherd]

Yao gets a REALLY easy ride in that one. When they say he "spread basketball to another continent" all they mean is, "he's Asian".

If he was an American who somehow managed to mobilise the Chinese to follow basketball through some amazing charisma and marketing work, then.... maybe.

But Yao was just the right nationality.

[myhc]

International Players currently playing/played in the NBA:

Sure fire HoF:
Dirk Nowitzki
Arvydas Sabonis
Manu Ginobili
Steve Nash
Pau Gasol
Yao Ming (trailblazer)

Maybe:
Luis Scola (based solely on his international game, but even that is unlikely)
Toni Kukoc (is he there yet?)
Dikembe Mutombo
Tony Parker

Dikembe was one of the greatest shot blockers this league has ever seen. He'll get in.

[cantthinkofanything]

Dikembe was one of the greatest shot blockers this league has ever seen. He'll get in.

I agree with this. He's automatic. Especially with his off court humanitarian work.

[Spurologist]

what's ducks take on this?

[lefty]

Manu is a HOFer

[urunobili]

Both...

[lefty]

Manu only

[quentin_compson]

I don't get how people are saying Tony's not that talented. He's the best finisher i've ever seen besides maybe iverson. Fuck yao all he ever did was get hurt. Houston was never a serious threat to win shit. And maybe Tony would not be MVP of the 07 playoffs. But for the finals I don't see controvery he did whatever he wanted, scored at will and for 4 games was the best player on the court.

Comparing talent obviously has nothing to do with discussing if players should get a place in the hall of fame.
That being said, Yao was pretty unbelievable when he was not injured - which was seldom enough, I know. He could score down low in pretty much every way, he had a nice midrange shot, and he was a great FT shooter.

TP is a great player, and he was very good in the finals 07, but back then, Duncan was still a guy that just made it easier for his teammates on both ends of the court on a level that he is no longer capable of. Tony deserved his MVP, but giving it to Duncan would have felt just as right.

[nickdaquick]

Comparing talent obviously has nothing to do with discussing if players should get a place in the hall of fame.
That being said, Yao was pretty unbelievable when he was not injured - which was seldom enough, I know. He could score down low in pretty much every way, he had a nice midrange shot, and he was a great FT shooter.

TP is a great player, and he was very good in the finals 07, but back then, Duncan was still a guy that just made it easier for his teammates on both ends of the court on a level that he is no longer capable of. Tony deserved his MVP, but giving it to Duncan would have felt just as right.

Agreed

[will_spurs]

Both Manu and Tony (and Pau... and Nash... and Dirk... and many others) will go in because they are foreigners and have spear-headed the international movement in the NBA. As simple as that.