CalStateUniv. Tuition goes up 12-percent on top of an already planned 10% increase

[InRareForm]

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/state&id=8245357&cmp=twi-kabc-article-8245357

[Wild Cobra]

Subsidies can only last so long when a state is going broke.

[boutons_deux]

subsidies?

you lie.

[InRareForm]

What is the new rules with tuition PELT grants and payback options? They were adjusted right when Obama took office...?

States are broke. With the "You have to go to college" mentality and throw that alongside w/ financial aid providing a down payment (so to say) on those ballooned loans... Recipe for disaster.

[baseline bum]

It's unbelievable how higher education costs have shot through the roof the last 15 years. This nation is fucking done.

[DarrinS]

Liberal Mecca isn't quite the utopia people thought it would be.

[InRareForm]

http://www.calstate.edu/hr/employee-profile/2009/faculty/salary.shtml

[Wild Cobra]

It's unbelievable how higher education costs have shot through the roof the last 15 years. This nation is fucking done.
It happens with just about everything the government controls.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

BigCollege?

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Why aren't we asking colleges and universities to lower their tuitions?

[Wild Cobra]

BigCollege?
Sure. Not directly, but consider this. No matter how much they raise tuition, they find students. There may be less who can pay their own way, but the government steps up with Pell grants. No matter how much people cry and scream that there isn't enough Pell grants, there is always enough to keep professors employed.

I say we need to dismantle the DoE. Force they system to work within the bounds of Supply and Demand again.

[4>0rings]

lol California

[DarrinS]

The VLWC hates human-Americans.

Gawt damned for-profit mofos.

[DMX7]

I say we need to dismantle the DoE.

Why? Do you even know what it does?

[Wild Cobra]

Why? Do you even know what it does?
Yes. It wastes money. We didn't have it until the late 70's and we did just fine without it. Probably better.

Now I'm not confusing it with the other DoE. It's correct acronym is ED rather than DoE though.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Why aren't we asking colleges and universities to lower their tuitions?

Why arent we demonizing colleges and universities like CEO's with their salary increases?

[jacobdrj]

Why arent we demonizing colleges and universities like CEO's with their salary increases?

Better question: Why are K-12 teachers being demonized by some politicians, yet state funded university professors (tenured and otherwise) get almost no flack, and when universities do cut budget, instead of reducing professor salaries, they just raise tuition?

[Wild Cobra]

Better question: Why are K-12 teachers being demonized by some politicians, yet state funded university professors (tenured and otherwise) get almost no flack, and when universities do cut budget, instead of reducing professor salaries, they just raise tuition?
I see...

Should we raise property taxes?

[jacobdrj]

I see...

Should we raise property taxes?

I don't really care one way or the other... It is just inconsistent for 1 party to be demonized and the other ignored when both serve the same basic function...

My brother pointed out that it is silly for states to fund colleges when their talent from that state tents to leave that state, and the out of state students leave that state as well... Made a great case for federal-only funded colleges...

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Better question: Why are K-12 teachers being demonized by some politicians, yet state funded university professors (tenured and otherwise) get almost no flack, and when universities do cut budget, instead of reducing professor salaries, they just raise tuition?

Great question. I'm wondering what the know-it-all's here think about it.

[jacobdrj]

I see...

Should we raise property taxes?

As a side note regarding the taxes bit:

TBH, I am not much of a fan of property taxes in general, as it fundamentally takes away from the concept of owning a property in the first place, as you never finish having to pay for it... Yes, I understand that city services require maintenance costs for police and fire coverage, but I don't like that it effectively makes it so you are just perpetually loaning your property from the city... Income tax is perhaps the most 'fair' in that it takes into account percentage of income burden, and sales tax is nice because, with the exception of the internet, it is some small guarantee that everybody pays something... Generally you can choose not to buy something, or not to take a pay raise...

[coyotes_geek]

I see...

Should we raise property taxes?

I'd expect most school districts to do exactly that.

[MannyIsGod]

Better question: Why are K-12 teachers being demonized by some politicians, yet state funded university professors (tenured and otherwise) get almost no flack, and when universities do cut budget, instead of reducing professor salaries, they just raise tuition?


Well, I'd argue that professors are demonized more than K-12 teachers but in all honesty such general statements are impossible to quantify. I definitely do not think you can say they get no flak, however.

Also, tuition hikes are not the only way Universities raise more money. There are furloughs, layoffs, fee increases, and service elimination. Many professors and instructors are definitely subject to having their contracts eliminated or being forced to take furloughs.

High ranking professors important in their fields are always going to get special consideration from universities because they bring prestige and notoriety to their programs and that in turn brings in funding. These positions more often than not pay for themselves. I don't know of many K-12 teachers that are able to accomplish that. Thats not to diminish the importance of K-12 teachers but its a fiscal and educational fact.

[MannyIsGod]

Just to be further clear - most University faculty where I attend is not tenured. So many of the classes are taught by part time faculty who are subject to having classes eliminated all the time.

[jacobdrj]

Well, I'd argue that professors are demonized more than K-12 teachers but in all honesty such general statements are impossible to quantify. I definitely do not think you can say they get no flak, however.

Also, tuition hikes are not the only way Universities raise more money. There are furloughs, layoffs, fee increases, and service elimination. Many professors and instructors are definitely subject to having their contracts eliminated or being forced to take furloughs.

High ranking professors important in their fields are always going to get special consideration from universities because they bring prestige and notoriety to their programs and that in turn brings in funding. These positions more often than not pay for themselves. I don't know of many K-12 teachers that are able to accomplish that. Thats not to diminish the importance of K-12 teachers but its a fiscal and educational fact.

Granted, it can not be quantified, but I feel that the 'universities' are demonized for raising rates, while 'teachers', rather than schools, are demonized when talking about budget cuts. And I don't mean from an academic prospective so much as a socioeconomic prospective. Every student has some horrible teacher story...

[MannyIsGod]

Granted, it can not be quantified, but I feel that the 'universities' are demonized for raising rates, while 'teachers', rather than schools, are demonized when talking about budget cuts. And I don't mean from an academic prospective so much as a socioeconomic prospective. Every student has some horrible teacher story...

I think you'd have to ignore all the "real world" comments, liberal indoctrination claims, and general conservative declaration of "the elite" in order to make that claim though.

One of my calculus profs designed the GPS system, worked as an engineer on the space program and was a colonel in the air force but many here on this very board would be quick to say he had no real world experience based on him being a professor at a university.

[coyotes_geek]

High ranking professors important in their fields are always going to get special consideration from universities because they bring prestige and notoriety to their programs and that in turn brings in funding. These positions more often than not pay for themselves.

While true, there are universities that take this approach to the extreme. I forget the specific numbers, but someone looked at UT's faculty and found that something like 60% of all classes were taught by just 20% of the faculty. Obviously research is important to universities, but it certainly seems like there's some room to help control student costs by eliminating some faculty positions and making professors teach more.

[Bartleby]

So many of the classes are taught by part time faculty who are subject to having classes eliminated all the time.

And in most cases they are underpaid. Most colleges are cutting costs by using these non-tenure-track faculty to carry more of the teaching load.

Many state universities are also increasing revenue by increasing the portion of out of state and international students they admit.

At the same time, they have been increasing costs by adding student services and amenities that have very little, if anything, to do with education.

[coyotes_geek]

At the same time, they have been increasing costs by adding student services and amenities that have very little, if anything, to do with education.

I'm sure once you see how nice and shiny the athletics facilities are you'll agree that it's money well spent.

[MannyIsGod]

While true, there are universities that take this approach to the extreme. I forget the specific numbers, but someone looked at UT's faculty and found that something like 60% of all classes were taught by just 20% of the faculty. Obviously research is important to universities, but it certainly seems like there's some room to help control student costs by eliminating some faculty positions and making professors teach more.

To be fair, a school like UT is going to be different because it is such a huge research facility. What is going to be true for A&M and UT is not going to be true for UTSA etc. I can't comment on what professors do there since I don't know specifics, but in a lot of cases students will be benefited much more by a professor who's able to include them in research rather than teach another 100-200 level course. There may be ways to make it efficient but I would not assume so.

[MannyIsGod]

I'm sure once you see how nice and shiny the athletics facilities are you'll agree that it's money well spent.

If the athletics departments are able to fund their own facilities then so be it. I really don't have a problem with things of that nature.

I'm happy that I work for a fully self funded department (not athletics related) in our university. We really don't have anything extravagant by any means, but we are able to fund some cool programs that I can really get behind.

[CosmicCowboy]

I have no problem with education being priced at it's cost of delivery. Education should be subject to the same market forces as other commodities. The students and the dollars will find the best value. We need to get over the concept of college being an automatic middle class "rite of passage" and accept it for what it should be...an investment in learning marketable skills and knowledge that is paid back through increased lifetime earnings. Make a bad investment choice and get a degree in Philosophy? Tough shit. Should have thought about that when you were picking a major.

[Wild Cobra]

I don't really care one way or the other... It is just inconsistent for 1 party to be demonized and the other ignored when both serve the same basic function...

My brother pointed out that it is silly for states to fund colleges when their talent from that state tents to leave that state, and the out of state students leave that state as well... Made a great case for federal-only funded colleges...
How about we simply have no federal or state funding of college, and make the students pay? There are still loans, scholarships, and Pell grants.

[MannyIsGod]

How about we simply have no federal or state funding of college, and make the students pay? There are still loans, scholarships, and Pell grants.


:lmao

[Wild Cobra]

:lmao

The Pell grant is issued for the student. Not the university. Maybe I misunderstood what was meant.

I say that no federal money should go to the schools them self. A grant should be issued to a student and then have his/her choice of which school to use it in.

[MannyIsGod]

:lmao

[Winehole23]

git yer socialist hands off my medicare

[MannyIsGod]

git yer socialist hands off my medicare

Pretty much.

[Winehole23]

OTOH, Wild Cobra raises a sensible point: who gets the money?

The college receives the money in turn, true, but that it is originally given to the student is not a trivial difference.

[MannyIsGod]

Its fairly trivial to say that funding should be given straight to students to decide where to spend it and it magically becomes money well spent. I'm not going to hold my breath expecting WC to provide any semblance of data to back up his claims. Are you?

[MannyIsGod]

For instance, I cringe at every dollar of federal grant money being spent at the University of Phoenix or Devry.

[jacobdrj]

How about we simply have no federal or state funding of college, and make the students pay? There are still loans, scholarships, and Pell grants.

I do not disagree with this. It is these Pell Grants and Subsidized Federal Loans that have allowed prices to inflate in the 1st place. The money IS given to the student to be disbursed to the school, *kind of*.

You still have to go THROUGH the University to *GET* that money, and it is at the discretion of their Office of Student Financial Aid that *you* can be disbursed that money. I have experienced this first hand, as I decided to go to grad school in the same university as my undergrad. I was not permitted to receive financial aid through the university (my FAFSA went through just fine and was supposedly offered enough to cover my expenses) but because their system had a glitch and still showed me as undergrad attempting too many credits towards my degree, I was denied aid... Not by the government, but by the university... I had to appeal to the university to reinstate my aid, and to get my status updated...

[jacobdrj]

For instance, I cringe at every dollar of federal grant money being spent at the University of Phoenix or Devry.

It is hard to legitimize what constitutes proper accreditation without government intervention. Even schools that are accredited seem a bit shady sometimes...

[jacobdrj]

How about we simply have no federal or state funding of college, and make the students pay? There are still loans, scholarships, and Pell grants.

In fairness, I was viewing 'federal funding' meaning the subsidized loans and Pell grants...

[MannyIsGod]

It is hard to legitimize what constitutes proper accreditation without government intervention. Even schools that are accredited seem a bit shady sometimes...

Absolutely.

[MannyIsGod]

In any event, not everything we need should be based on a "for profit" free market business model. I would have thought after watching the past 15-20 years of deregulation people would have realized that a bit more. Imagine Enron happening with education instead of energy. Yeah, that would be just great.

We should find ways to make it easier for people to afford an education - not harder - because of the overall benefit a more educated society has on everyone's life.

[DarrinS]

In any event, not everything we need should be based on a "for profit" free market business model. I would have thought after watching the past 15-20 years of deregulation people would have realized that a bit more. Imagine Enron happening with education instead of energy. Yeah, that would be just great.

We should find ways to make it easier for people to afford an education - not harder - because of the overall benefit a more educated society has on everyone's life.


There are lots of choices out there. School too expensive? Choose a different one.

[Wild Cobra]

I do not disagree with this. It is these Pell Grants and Subsidized Federal Loans that have allowed prices to inflate in the 1st place. The money IS given to the student to be disbursed to the school, *kind of*.

You still have to go THROUGH the University to *GET* that money, and it is at the discretion of their Office of Student Financial Aid that *you* can be disbursed that money. I have experienced this first hand, as I decided to go to grad school in the same university as my undergrad. I was not permitted to receive financial aid through the university (my FAFSA went through just fine and was supposedly offered enough to cover my expenses) but because their system had a glitch and still showed me as undergrad attempting too many credits towards my degree, I was denied aid... Not by the government, but by the university... I had to appeal to the university to reinstate my aid, and to get my status updated...
Then you agree there needs to be a change, where the grant is given to the student.

[jacobdrj]

Then you agree there needs to be a change, where the grant is given to the student.

I agree there needs to be a change. I am not sure that just giving money to a student is a solution. It seems like a good way to introduce more fraud and frivolous spending by inexperienced (dumb) young adults...

Perhaps giving a voucher to be used by the student as they see fit may be a better (not perfect) solution, so as not to be at the mercy of the State/Private university's Financial Aid bureaucracy...

[MannyIsGod]

There are lots of choices out there. School too expensive? Choose a different one.

Not sure how this even addresses anything I put up.

[Wild Cobra]

I agree there needs to be a change. I am not sure that just giving money to a student is a solution. It seems like a good way to introduce more fraud and frivolous spending by inexperienced (dumb) young adults...

Perhaps giving a voucher to be used by the student as they see fit may be a better (not perfect) solution, so as not to be at the mercy of the State/Private university's Financial Aid bureaucracy...
I'm not really sure how it works to begin with. Last time I was familiar with a Pell grant, you had to maintain a specific GPA or higher to stay qualified. If a school has a say in the matter, that tells me they are on the hook for it if you drop below that given GPA. They have a say anyway in who they want to admit or not.

Regardless of the current rules, I think the Pell grant should be given entirely by the student's merits. Not by the school he/she is going to.

[MannyIsGod]

It is given entirely based on the students conditions and the requirements are really lax (something like a 2.0 GPA, 66% completion rate). However, the Universities oversee the distribution because they already have the infrastructure in place. Doesn't make sense to duplicate it.

[Wild Cobra]

It is given entirely based on the students conditions and the requirements are really lax (something like a 2.0 GPA, 66% completion rate). However, the Universities oversee the distribution because they already have the infrastructure in place. Doesn't make sense to duplicate it.
I don't mind them overseeing the distribution as long as they don't have a say that is contrary to who they would enroll otherwise.

[MannyIsGod]

Its fairly trivial to say that funding should be given straight to students to decide where to spend it and it magically becomes money well spent. I'm not going to hold my breath expecting WC to provide any semblance of data to back up his claims. Are you?

Hope you're not turning blue, WH.

[Winehole23]

I had to go to work. I have no idea what WC claimed, even after reading through it.

[Wild Cobra]

I had to go to work. I have no idea what WC claimed, even after reading through it.
What I meant is that if they are paying out of pocket, or with a grant, they should be treated equally when it comes to acceptance. Judged by the same scholastic merits.

[Agloco]

It's unbelievable how higher education costs have shot through the roof the last 15 years. This nation is fucking done.

I was just recounting to my wife about how I managed to work my way through undergrad, but couldn't dream of doing that in todays world. Crazy.

Education has become bastardized as a business venture just like any other.

[jacobdrj]

I was just recounting to my wife about how I managed to work my way through undergrad, but couldn't dream of doing that in todays world. Crazy.

Education has become bastardized as a business venture just like any other.

I just got my tuition bill for next fall. Taking 2 classes was a staggering 4 grand.

Even making payments, I don't see how someone who yet does not have a degree can work a minimum wage job and expect to be able to pay their way through college without assistance from loans and grants...

I remember when Jerome JYD Williams explained that he worked his way through college and absolutely refused to take any assistance... Don't know how he did it. I really don't. That just couldn't happen today.

[Agloco]

While true, there are universities that take this approach to the extreme. I forget the specific numbers, but someone looked at UT's faculty and found that something like 60% of all classes were taught by just 20% of the faculty. Obviously research is important to universities, but it certainly seems like there's some room to help control student costs by eliminating some faculty positions and making professors teach more.

Tell that to universities who are losing research grants due to falling quality of grant submissions. It's awfully difficult to do quality research when you're responsible for the academic end of things as well. In my case, there's a third component: clinical. It's gets awfully hard to do anything effectively or compentently when you're pulled in three distinctly different directions. But as some have stated here, most grants puled in more than pay for our salaries. I personally have never on a state payroll, my grants paid for my salary and for those of my students.


To be fair, a school like UT is going to be different because it is such a huge research facility. What is going to be true for A&M and UT is not going to be true for UTSA etc. I can't comment on what professors do there since I don't know specifics, but in a lot of cases students will be benefited much more by a professor who's able to include them in research rather than teach another 100-200 level course. There may be ways to make it efficient but I would not assume so.

You have it right here. Focus is on research because that's the big money maker for most departments. Most R01 or big money grants result in some sort of patent for which the university engages in profit sharing with the primary investigator. For evidence, one can google the "Palmaz Stent". That's financed more than a few ventures over the years for UTHSCSA.

Most departments now turn to adjunct faculty in order to fil the voids left in teaching undergraduate classes.

[Agloco]

I just got my tuition bill for next fall. Taking 2 classes was a staggering 4 grand.

Even making payments, I don't see how someone who yet does not have a degree can work a minimum wage job and expect to be able to pay their way through college without assistance from loans and grants...

I remember when Jerome JYD Williams explained that he worked his way through college and absolutely refused to take any assistance... Don't know how he did it. I really don't. That just couldn't happen today.

I feel for you. Most of my students had similar stories.

Granted (no pun intended), I was single but I was in my own apartment ($550/month) and had a old beat up land-yacht (77 Volaire) which I picked up at a junk yard for about 3 bills. I had basic internet and no cable. I worked 30 hours/week at USAA and made about 11.00/hour. Tuition was about 750 for 15 hours.

No way in hell do I make it on 1200/month today AND pay my way through school.

[baseline bum]

I feel for you. Most of my students had similar stories.

Granted (no pun intended), I was single but I was in my own apartment ($550/month) and had a old beat up land-yacht (77 Volaire) which I picked up at a junk yard for about 3 bills. I had basic internet and no cable. I worked 30 hours/week at USAA and made about 11.00/hour. Tuition was about 750 for 15 hours.

No way in hell do I make it on 1200/month today AND pay my way through school.

Must have been nice to not get nickel and dimed with gym fees, instructional enhancement fees, student center fees, and so on that made school cost a lot more than just tuition+books+room.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Why aren't we asking colleges and universities to lower their tuitions?

the students are asking, but they'll be ignored

[CosmicCowboy]

the students are asking, but they'll be ignored

Students aren't the only ones asking and looking at it...

http://www.statesman.com/news/texas-politics/perrys-call-for-10-000-bachelors-degrees-stumps-1248814.html

[Oh, Gee!!]

you go rick. cut state funding and then suggest higher education institutions reduce tuition to make up for the difference. brilliant

[jacobdrj]

"Do you really want a stripped-down, bare-bones degree?" - Hugill...

Yes, I believe there is a market for that... And yes, I would sign up for one... If it gave me the skills my employer was looking for... I don't think I need a bio class, that costs 2000 dollars, plus a 250 dollar text book, transportation and living costs, when I am pursuing, say, an accounting degree...

[CosmicCowboy]

"Do you really want a stripped-down, bare-bones degree?" - Hugill...

Yes, I believe there is a market for that... And yes, I would sign up for one... If it gave me the skills my employer was looking for... I don't think I need a bio class, that costs 2000 dollars, plus a 250 dollar text book, transportation and living costs, when I am pursuing, say, an accounting degree...

Exactly. Have extensive exit testing to determine what people really do and don't know. You just have to take the sections relevant to the employment you are seeking. Something similar to the SAT but college level with more diversity.

[MannyIsGod]

What I meant is that if they are paying out of pocket, or with a grant, they should be treated equally when it comes to acceptance. Judged by the same scholastic merits.

They're not already?

[jacobdrj]

They're not already?

I have never found being accepted to college very difficult. I have family that was 'accepted' to 'prestigious' universities... However, that didn't mean they could afford to actually 'go' there, even with grants and loans. Nothing short of private bank loans would have made going to those universities an option.

[Agloco]

"Do you really want a stripped-down, bare-bones degree?"

If by this it's meant that I take only the core courses in my chosen major, then by all means yes.

I've always laughed at the "well rounded student" pitch. Saw through that from day one.

By the time I hit undergrad, I've had 12 years of "rounding". :lol