Government Funded Electric Car Company Goes Out of Business

[ElNono]

"Consider yesterday's collapse of electric car company Green Vehicles (http://www.allcarselectric.com/news/1063336_start-up-electric-car-company-green-vehicles-folds-costs-city-500000) an object lesson in why it's a bad idea for cities to invest in the risky business of start-up car companies — perhaps especially start-up electric car companies. Even such companies with a viable product have seen their fair share of financial troubles (http://www.allcarselectric.com/news/1062028_think-thunk-electric-car-maker-goes-bankrupt-again), but Green Vehicles did not even have a product to sell off at a fire sale. The city of Salinas, California learned that lesson as Green Vehicles shut its doors, costing the city more than $500,000."

[DarrinS]

A start-up fails. Happens all the time. I don't have a problem with this kind of investment. Private sector has to take these risks all the time.

[coyotes_geek]

Municipalities should be in the business of being a municipality, not the electric car business.

[MannyIsGod]

Why would the city invest in it to begin with?

[coyotes_geek]

Green Vehicles was working on a three-wheeled electric car called the Triac 2.0, intended as a freeway-capable commuter car with a range of 100 miles and a top speed of 80 mph.

I'm having a hard time imagining too many people wanting to get on a freeway and do 80mph in this thing........

http://images.thecarconnection.com/med/green-vehicles-triac-2-0_100356503_m.jpg

[ElNono]

I'm having a hard time imagining too many people wanting to get on a freeway and do 80mph in this thing........

This is California we're talking about. Good luck doing over 15 mph on the freeway. :lol

[coyotes_geek]

This is California we're talking about. Good luck doing over 15 mph on the freeway. :lol

:lol

touche'

[Drachen]

I'm having a hard time imagining too many people wanting to get on a freeway and do 80mph in this thing........

http://images.thecarconnection.com/med/green-vehicles-triac-2-0_100356503_m.jpg

I don't see why not, this is like one of those can-am roadsters with an enclosure. People ride those.

[DarrinS]

500K is an insignificant investment for that type of enterprise.

[DarrinS]

I suppose that 500K could have been used towards the pension of ONE public sector worker.

[CosmicCowboy]

I suppose that 500K could have been used towards the pension of ONE public sector worker.

Or operating ONE of those helicopters in Houston for a couple of months.

[RandomGuy]

"Consider yesterday's collapse of electric car company Green Vehicles (http://www.allcarselectric.com/news/1063336_start-up-electric-car-company-green-vehicles-folds-costs-city-500000) an object lesson in why it's a bad idea for cities to invest in the risky business of start-up car companies — perhaps especially start-up electric car companies. Even such companies with a viable product have seen their fair share of financial troubles (http://www.allcarselectric.com/news/1062028_think-thunk-electric-car-maker-goes-bankrupt-again), but Green Vehicles did not even have a product to sell off at a fire sale. The city of Salinas, California learned that lesson as Green Vehicles shut its doors, costing the city more than $500,000."

Editorial note:

The article does not say exactly where the company got all of its funding, merely that the city of Salinas ponied up $500k. It is entirely possible that the majority of the funding for the company came from private investors, and the city's money represented a small fraction of the overall total.

"Government-funded electric car company" would imply that the majority of the funding came from "government" something not spelled out in the article.

(edit)

It is also entirely possible that the 500k figure in the article came from tax breaks.

A better title would be "government-subsidized".

[MannyIsGod]

The article is extremely thin on details and I'm quite frankly too lazy to look them up. But I have no idea why the city would feel a need to invest in a private company like that to begin with. I could understand investment in a company that was going to provide a direct service to the city: say some time of wifi infrastructure startup. However, this is just weird.

I don't think its tax breaks though. Tax breaks shouldn't be counted as investment.

[ElNono]

I picked up the story from slashdot, and thought it was good enough to share. I figured that if anybody wanted more details, they could look it up.

[MannyIsGod]

You're not wrong. I'm just lazy, as I said.

[ElNono]

Here's a few more details:

http://www.kionrightnow.com/story/15103400/green-vehicles-goes-under-takes-salinas-with-it

[ElNono]

In a way, I'm glad Salinas isn't pushing to keep a failing business.

[coyotes_geek]

Found this (http://www.montereyherald.com/ci_18505468?nclick_check=1).


Less than two years after being introduced by Mayor Dennis Donohue and city Economic Development Director Jeff Weir with great fanfare as a key component of city ambitions to become an alternative energy hub, and after gobbling up more than $500,000 in grant funding, the firm's top official told city leaders about the closure in an email.

Apparantely these guys also got some state money.



After announcing last year that it had secured $2 million in state funding, the company set up shop at the Firestone Business Park and held a grand opening. Company officials announced plans to begin producing as many as 2,000 vehicles per year, beginning last fall.

But Weir said company officials told him they later discovered the state funding would have to be repaid, presenting an obstacle. And, he said the firm never got close to opening a planned Abbott Street showroom for its product.

[DarrinS]

I'm having a hard time imagining too many people wanting to get on a freeway and do 80mph in this thing........

http://images.thecarconnection.com/med/green-vehicles-triac-2-0_100356503_m.jpg


Looks like a project I saw in Popular Mechanics about 20 years ago (powered by motorcycle engine).

[MannyIsGod]

Really what would benefit us to a great degree isn't a car but getting people to walk/bike for commutes under 5 miles. Those commutes make up huge portions of our gas usage and a 5 mile bike ride is almost as fast as driving. Depending on traffic conditions - it can definitely be faster.

[ElNono]

Really what would benefit us to a great degree isn't a car but getting people to walk/bike for commutes under 5 miles. Those commutes make up huge portions of our gas usage and a 5 mile bike ride is almost as fast as driving. Depending on traffic conditions - it can definitely be faster.

The biggest problem I have with that here in NJ is we don't have roads for that. And the way people drive doesn't help either.

[Drachen]

Really what would benefit us to a great degree isn't a car but getting people to walk/bike for commutes under 5 miles. Those commutes make up huge portions of our gas usage and a 5 mile bike ride is almost as fast as driving. Depending on traffic conditions - it can definitely be faster.

I bought my first motorcycle in response to the 4 dollar a gallon gas prices a few years ago. Before I found out how inexpensive motorcycles can be I was trying to figure out a way to ride a bicycle to work (5.5 miles). It is just straight up impossible because there is no where to shower. Solve that problem for me and I will start riding a bike to work. (still keeping the MC though because even though they are ridiculously practical, they are a ton of fun too).

[RandomGuy]

Here's a few more details:

http://www.kionrightnow.com/story/15103400/green-vehicles-goes-under-takes-salinas-with-it

Fair enough. All of the funding came from the government. Thank you!

It failed, at least in part, because it could not get private equity funding to match the grants it got.

Sad, but it makes very clear that these kinds of things requires a lot of capital to get rolling.

[MannyIsGod]

The biggest problem I have with that here in NJ is we don't have roads for that. And the way people drive doesn't help either.

Yeah - thats an issue. People are pretty fucking horrible. Not a week goes by where I dont encounter some form of stupidity from a driver when I'm on my bike. Luckily, I live in a much less densely populated area so I can ride up into the foothills and I'm mostly alone on the roads and when I was commuting 75% was an a multiuse path (although walkers with dogs/children can be even worse than cars at times).

When I lived in San Antonio this was nearly impossible.

[MannyIsGod]

I bought my first motorcycle in response to the 4 dollar a gallon gas prices a few years ago. Before I found out how inexpensive motorcycles can be I was trying to figure out a way to ride a bicycle to work (5.5 miles). It is just straight up impossible because there is no where to shower. Solve that problem for me and I will start riding a bike to work. (still keeping the MC though because even though they are ridiculously practical, they are a ton of fun too).

Thats a very real problem for those in San Antonio but its really nothing a change of clothes and a washcloth couldn't solve. You really shouldn't sweat much on an easy 5 mile ride as long as you're not trying to break any speed records but considering the SA heat/humidity I know thats not always the case.

[RandomGuy]

Found this (http://www.montereyherald.com/ci_18505468?nclick_check=1).

"But Weir said company officials told him they later discovered the state funding would have to be repaid, presenting an obstacle."

Apparantely these guys also got some state money.

Assets-Liabilities = Equity

If you find out that what you thought was equity suddenly turns out to be a liability you didn't know you had, that sinks your bottom line pretty quick.

That repayment is also probably why they couldn't get private financing, since a good chunk of any sale price for the company would go back to the government.

This says that somebody needed to be more proactive, and that included the management and the government entities involved.

I always say that there are two skill sets involved in getting companies off the ground, one is knowing the product/service, and the other is knowing how to run a business.

Start ups require a pretty demanding skill set, especially when it is capital intensive like this. You have to be deft at seeking funding and selling the idea first.

A cautionary tale.

[coyotes_geek]

Assets-Liabilities = Equity

If you find out that what you thought was equity suddenly turns out to be a liability you didn't know you had, that sinks your bottom line pretty quick.

That repayment is also probably why they couldn't get private financing, since a good chunk of any sale price for the company would go back to the government.

This says that somebody needed to be more proactive, and that included the management and the government entities involved.

I always say that there are two skill sets involved in getting companies off the ground, one is knowing the product/service, and the other is knowing how to run a business.

Start ups require a pretty demanding skill set, especially when it is capital intensive like this. You have to be deft at seeking funding and selling the idea first.

A cautionary tale.

No doubt. Sounds like both the city and the company got in over their heads. Unfortunate for all.

[DarrinS]

Really what would benefit us to a great degree isn't a car but getting people to walk/bike for commutes under 5 miles. Those commutes make up huge portions of our gas usage and a 5 mile bike ride is almost as fast as driving. Depending on traffic conditions - it can definitely be faster.


I wonder what % of the population lives within 5 miles of work? I wish I did.

[RandomGuy]

Thats a very real problem for those in San Antonio but its really nothing a change of clothes and a washcloth couldn't solve. You really shouldn't sweat much on an easy 5 mile ride as long as you're not trying to break any speed records but considering the SA heat/humidity I know thats not always the case.

It is actually fairly easy from a construction standpoint to retrofit a building with a shower. No clue about permitting though.

Another barrier would be somewhere with professional attire.

Stuffing dress slacks and a button up shirt into a backpack tends to wrinkle stuff.

To really commit to bicycling in such a case would require a locker and a laundry service of some sort as well.

[MannyIsGod]

It is actually fairly easy from a construction standpoint to retrofit a building with a shower. No clue about permitting though.

Another barrier would be somewhere with professional attire.

Stuffing dress slacks and a button up shirt into a backpack tends to wrinkle stuff.

To really commit to bicycling in such a case would require a locker and a laundry service of some sort as well.

You can easily get dress clothes in panniers. You really wouldn't need a backpack with a rack and panniers on your back wheel.

[MannyIsGod]

I wonder what % of the population lives within 5 miles of work? I wish I did.

I have read statistics that over half of Americans live within 5 miles of their job. I'll try to find a source.

[Drachen]

Thats a very real problem for those in San Antonio but its really nothing a change of clothes and a washcloth couldn't solve. You really shouldn't sweat much on an easy 5 mile ride as long as you're not trying to break any speed records but considering the SA heat/humidity I know thats not always the case.

I sweat on the motorcycle and that is not anywhere near as physically demanding as even a leisurly bicycle ride. I want to get one of those shirts that columbia is coming out with next year... the omni freeze ice. Maybe that will help.

[RandomGuy]

I wonder what % of the population lives within 5 miles of work? I wish I did.

Well, with gas getting more and more expensive, the opportunity costs of living far from work go up.

At some point, living closer, even if rent/mortgages are more expensive, pays off.

One might have to spend an extra $300 a month on rent/mortgage payments, but if you save $500 per month in gas and decpreciation (wear and tear/replacement costs) then you have come out ahead.

I always point out that the largest cost of owning a car is replacement, not gas, a fact that surprises a lot of people.

The more you drive it, the faster you have to replace the car, and that adds up.

At some point though, I wonder when gasoline will start passing other operating costs. One can control that fairly easily with smaller, more efficient cars. This is one reason that I don't see CAFE standards as necessary. The market will move on its own, and such standards are poor ways of encouraging efficiency.

Note:

Average cost of operating the average US car per mile is calculated by the IRS, and is used as their mileage deduction.

Currently, I think that is at $0.55 per mile.

Use that as your baseline for calculating how much driving is costing you, adjusting downward for smaller cars.

[RandomGuy]

I have read statistics that over half of Americans live within 5 miles of their job. I'll try to find a source.


The average United States driver travels 29 miles per day and is driving a total of 55 minutes per day. (This is an average vehicle speed of 32 mph.) US Department of Transportation, Bureau of Transportation Statistics

I would doubt that is the case, since it doesn't jibe with what I understand to be the case, but if you can find a good source that would be interesting.

[MannyIsGod]

I sweat on the motorcycle and that is not anywhere near as physically demanding as even a leisurly bicycle ride. I want to get one of those shirts that columbia is coming out with next year... the omni freeze ice. Maybe that will help.

Good lord. I hate to see you when you work out. :lol

[MannyIsGod]

I would doubt that is the case, since it doesn't jibe with what I understand to be the case, but if you can find a good source that would be interesting.

According to this its actually 29% with another 22% driving 6-10 miles one way.

29% is nothing to sneeze at, to be sure, and 6-10 isn't much farther.

http://www.bts.gov/publications/omnistats/volume_03_issue_04/html/figure_02.html

[Drachen]

It is actually fairly easy from a construction standpoint to retrofit a building with a shower. No clue about permitting though.

Another barrier would be somewhere with professional attire.

Stuffing dress slacks and a button up shirt into a backpack tends to wrinkle stuff.
To really commit to bicycling in such a case would require a locker and a laundry service of some sort as well.


I have been struggling with this recently (this is the first summer that I have had to ride farther than 5.5 miles for work). I even went to buy some polo shirts to wear to work (I hate polo shirts), because they can go in a backpack more easily and I don't have to worry about folding them back up on the way home (because I can just stuff them in the backpack and wash them at home). The button ups on the other hand do get wrinkled and between kids, 7 month pregnant wife, school and work I don't have the time to iron them back out.

[ElNono]

I live 2.5 miles from the office, but wife works 8 miles the other direction. So I end up driving around 25 miles more or less.

[DarrinS]

I live 2.5 miles from the office, but wife works 8 miles the other direction. So I end up driving around 25 miles more or less.

Must be nice. That's a one-way trip for me.

[MannyIsGod]

I have been struggling with this recently (this is the first summer that I have had to ride farther than 5.5 miles for work). I even went to buy some polo shirts to wear to work (I hate polo shirts), because they can go in a backpack more easily and I don't have to worry about folding them back up on the way home (because I can just stuff them in the backpack and wash them at home). The button ups on the other hand do get wrinkled and between kids, 7 month pregnant wife, school and work I don't have the time to iron them back out.

Wrinkle Free, IMO.

I'm currently wearing one of my favorite wrinkle free shirts and I couldn't wrinkle it if I tried.

That being said aren't there any bags you can buy that are large storage for a MC?

I do think riding a MC is much better than using a car for such short distances, also.

[Drachen]

Good lord. I hate to see you when you work out. :lol

I am also usually wearing a backpack, so there is no chance at any breeze. I might show up somewhere looking great.... until I take off my back pack and have two wet strips on the front and a large wet rectangle on the back.

As far as working out, I generally don't sweat a lot, but when I am riding in 104 degree weather in direct sunlight, it can get a little uncomfortable. Also, you have to factor in the unpredictable. Last thursday it took me 46 mins to get from I-10 and Callaghan to I-10 and UTSA Blvd (about 6 miles) surrounded by cars with their engines on and in direct sunlight.

[MannyIsGod]

Must be nice. That's a one-way trip for me.

This is one of the biggest factors on overall energy consumption in our country. Its going to hurt for a lot of people living far from work as energy costs get more expensive because our usage is so high.

[Drachen]

Wrinkle Free, IMO.

I'm currently wearing one of my favorite wrinkle free shirts and I couldn't wrinkle it if I tried.

That being said aren't there any bags you can buy that are large storage for a MC?

I do think riding a MC is much better than using a car for such short distances, also.

well I didnt know what panniers are so I looked them up and they look like they are just saddle bags made of cloth. I can use those, but I need to save the money for them.

(when I say "those" I mean actual saddle bags. I don't know how well cloth ones would hold up at 80 mph every day)

[MannyIsGod]

I always rode with a backpack to my last job but my ride to work was downhill (I'd lose about 800 feet in elevation over the 5 miles) and it really didn't require much effort at all to go 20mph most of the way. Its also a lot drier here so I was rarely sweaty when I got to my job. Factor in that I was allowed to wear scrubs and it was pretty damn easy for me.

I did sweat a lot on the way back home seeing as I got to gain those 800 feet back but that was on the way home.

[baseline bum]

This is California we're talking about. Good luck doing over 15 mph on the freeway. :lol

:lol