Oslo: Bomb blast near Norway prime minister's office

[velik_m]

Oslo: Bomb blast near Norway prime minister's office

A massive bomb blast has hit government buildings in the Norwegian capital Oslo, killing at least seven people and injuring 15 others.

PM Jens Stoltenberg described the situation as "very serious".

The bomb was followed by a fatal shooting incident near Oslo at a youth meeting of the Labour Party, which Mr Stoltenberg leads.

Norwegian media said at least four people were killed when a man opened fire indiscriminately.

Police said the suspected gunman had been arrested, TV2 reported.

No group has said they carried out the attacks.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14252515

:wow

[boutons_deux]

Libyan's??

Norway's government says it will scale down its fighter jet contribution in Libya from six to four planes and withdraw completely from the NATO-led operation by August 1.

http://www.rferl.org/content/norway_to_leave_libya_capaign/24231274.html

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Either they don't know.....don't show...
...or don't care about what's going on in the 'hood.

[boutons_deux]

Several People (Possibly Many More) Reportedly Dead After Explosion in Downtown Oslo, Attack on Children's Summer Camp

http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/638163/several_people_%28possibly_many_more%29_reportedly _dead_after_explosion_in_downtown_oslo%2C_attack_o n_children%27s_summer_camp/#paragraph6

[MannyIsGod]

Will be interesting to see if its domestic or foreign. They have a suspect in custody, I believe.

[Winehole23]

Either they don't know.....don't show...
...or don't care about what's going on in the 'hood.Why do you say so? I see nothing to support that.

Is there something you know about this that we don't?

[baseline bum]

Ricky!!!!!!!

[ChumpDumper]

Ice Cube did it?

[xeromass]

Will be interesting to see if its domestic or foreign. They have a suspect in custody, I believe.

Word is that suspect is 32yo tall, blonde, nordic and speaks fluent Norwegian. So it seems we're either dealing with complete utter wacko or right wing extremist (ehm, ain't that the same?).

[DarrinS]

Word is that suspect is 32yo tall, blonde, nordic and speaks fluent Norwegian. So it seems we're either dealing with complete utter wacko or right wing extremist (ehm, ain't that the same?).


Whew, I'm just glad it wasn't a Muslim.

Sincerely,

Chris Matthews

[MannyIsGod]

I was mainly interested because the nordic countries have been free of islamic terrorism to now.

[ChumpDumper]

I'm disappointed it wasn't a Muslim.

Sincerely,

DarrinS

[xeromass]

Anders Behring Breivik, born 1979, practically without taxable income, living at Hoffsveien 18, Oslo, 1st floor apartment H, together with Wenche Elisabeth Behring Breivik, born 1946. Mummy's son then.

Google rules.

Added:

Dude's facebook:

http://nb-no.facebook.com/people/Anders-Behring-Breivik/100002651290254

[baseline bum]

Just another right wing sociopath like McVeigh.

[ChumpDumper]

This is a damn shame. At least the heavy hitters have the weekend to decide how to spin this.

[Wild Cobra]

Word is that suspect is 32yo tall, blonde, nordic and speaks fluent Norwegian. So it seems we're either dealing with complete utter wacko or right wing extremist (ehm, ain't that the same?).
I would say a liberal wacko who doesn't believe in his nations support or the wars.

[ChumpDumper]

I would say a liberal wacko who doesn't believe in his nations support or the wars.What makes you say that?

[Wild Cobra]

What makes you say that?
Just a conjecture from tidbits I heard about the incident.

[xeromass]

You didn't hear much about it, right? He defines himself as conservative christian on his FB page and was a member of libertarian-like party (anti-tax, pro-market, personal freedom) and its youth wing in the past.

Now this part is complete online hearsay, some blog (http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/) he could possibly be writing for explicitly denies them being the same person, but that same blog also pronounces an "almost certain Islamic terror connection to the Oklahoma City bombing" in a post just before that so I can't take them too seriously.

So story goes that he is Fjordman, right-wing blogger with rather extensive wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fjordman).

His last writing from early June is titled When Treason Becomes The Norm: Why The Proposition Nation, Not Islam, Is Our Primary Enemy (http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2011/06/when-treason-becomes-norm-why.html) and in which he lambastes the proponents of multi-culti society as traitors.

It would make some sense to go all rambo at left-wing youth meeting a month and a half later. They're traitors after all.

[BlackSwordsMan]

either muslim or chrisitan religion is for the birds!

[DMX7]

I'm disappointed it wasn't a Muslim.

Sincerely,

DarrinS

No kidding.

DarrinS hears about this, and the first thing he thinks of is "damnit, it wasn't a Muslim, so now I can't exploit these deaths to generalize all Muslims into homicidal maniacs."

A great group of people these Tea Baggers are... I'm sure this country will go far with you lunatics in control.

[Winehole23]

"Tea baggers" have what to do with this?

[Spurminator]

The omnipotence of Al Qaeda and meaninglessness of "Terrorism"
BY GLENN GREENWALD

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/07/23/nyt/index.html

For much of the day yesterday, the featured headline on The New York Times online front page strongly suggested that Muslims were responsible for the attacks on Oslo; that led to definitive statements on the BBC and elsewhere that Muslims were the culprits. The Washington Post's Jennifer Rubin wrote a whole column based on the assertion that Muslims were responsible, one that, as James Fallows notes, remains at the Post with no corrections or updates. The morning statement issued by President Obama -- "It's a reminder that the entire international community holds a stake in preventing this kind of terror from occurring" and "we have to work cooperatively together both on intelligence and in terms of prevention of these kinds of horrible attacks" -- appeared to assume, though (to its credit) without overtly stating, that the perpetrator was an international terrorist group.

But now it turns out that the alleged perpetrator wasn't from an international Muslim extremist group at all, but was rather a right-wing Norwegian nationalist with a history of anti-Muslim commentary and an affection for Muslim-hating blogs such as Pam Geller's Atlas Shrugged, Daniel Pipes, and Robert Spencer's Jihad Watch. Despite that, The New York Times is still working hard to pin some form of blame, even ultimate blame, on Muslim radicals (h/t sysprog):

Terrorism specialists said that even if the authorities ultimately ruled out Islamic terrorism as the cause of Friday’s assaults, other kinds of groups or individuals were mimicking Al Qaeda's brutality and multiple attacks.

"If it does turn out to be someone with more political motivations, it shows these groups are learning from what they see from Al Qaeda," said Brian Fishman, a counterterrorism researcher at the New America Foundation in Washington.

Al Qaeda is always to blame, even when it isn't, even when it's allegedly the work of a Nordic, Muslim-hating, right-wing European nationalist. Of course, before Al Qaeda, nobody ever thought to detonate bombs in government buildings or go on indiscriminate, politically motivated shooting rampages. The NYT speculates that amonium nitrate fertilizer may have been used to make the bomb because the suspect, Anders Behring Breivik, owned a farming-related business and thus could have access to that material; of course nobody would have ever thought of using that substance to make a massive bomb had it not been for Al Qaeda. So all this proves once again what a menacing threat radical Islam is.

Then there's this extraordinarily revealing passage from the NYT -- first noticed by Richard Silverstein -- explaining why the paper originally reported what it did:

Initial reports focused on the possibility of Islamic militants, in particular Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami, or Helpers of the Global Jihad, cited by some analysts as claiming responsibility for the attacks. American officials said the group was previously unknown and might not even exist.

There was ample reason for concern that terrorists might be responsible.

In other words, now that we know the alleged perpetrator is not Muslim, we know -- by definition -- that Terrorists are not responsible; conversely, when we thought Muslims were responsible, that meant -- also by definition -- that it was an act of Terrorism. As Silverstein put it:

How's that again? Are the only terrorists in the world Muslim? If so, what do we call a right-wing nationalist capable of planting major bombs and mowing down scores of people for the sake of the greater glory of his cause? If even a liberal newspaper like the Times can't call this guy a terrorist, what does that say about the mindset of the western world?

What it says is what we've seen repeatedly: that Terrorism has no objective meaning and, at least in American political discourse, has come functionally to mean: violence committed by Muslims whom the West dislikes, no matter the cause or the target. Indeed, in many (though not all) media circles, discussion of the Oslo attack quickly morphed from this is Terrorism (when it was believed Muslims did it) to no, this isn't Terrorism, just extremism (once it became likely that Muslims didn't). As Maz Hussain -- whose lengthy Twitter commentary on this event yesterday was superb and well worth reading -- put it:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NwOQGHB1I-c/Tiq1G0LGehI/AAAAAAAAAF0/kkagid2yy7E/s1600/hussain.png

That Terrorism means nothing more than violence committed by Muslims whom the West dislikes has been proven repeatedly. When an airplane was flown into an IRS building in Austin, Texas, it was immediately proclaimed to be Terrorism, until it was revealed that the attacker was a white, non-Muslim, American anti-tax advocate with a series of domestic political grievances. The U.S. and its allies can, by definition, never commit Terrorism even when it is beyond question that the purpose of their violence is to terrorize civilian populations into submission. Conversely, Muslims who attack purely military targets -- even if the target is an invading army in their own countries -- are, by definition, Terrorists. That is why, as NYU's Remi Brulin has extensively documented, Terrorism is the most meaningless, and therefore the most manipulated, word in the English language. Yesterday provided yet another sterling example.

One last question: if, as preliminary evidence suggests, it turns out that Breivik was "inspired" by the extremist hatemongering rantings of Geller, Pipes and friends, will their groups be deemed Terrorist organizations such that any involvement with them could constitute the criminal offense of material support to Terrorism? Will those extremist polemicists inspiring Terrorist violence receive the Anwar Awlaki treatment of being put on an assassination hit list without due process? Will tall, blond, Nordic-looking males now receive extra scrutiny at airports and other locales, and will those having any involvement with those right-wing, Muslim-hating groups be secretly placed on no-fly lists? Or are those oppressive, extremist, lawless measures -- like the word Terrorism -- also reserved exclusively for Muslims?


UPDATE: The original version of the NYT article was even worse in this regard. As several people noted, here is what the article originally said (papers that carry NYT articles still have the original version):

Terrorism specialists said that even if the authorities ultimately ruled out terrorism as the cause of Friday's assaults, other kinds of groups or individuals were mimicking al-Qaida's signature brutality and multiple attacks.

"If it does turn out to be someone with more political motivations, it shows these groups are learning from what they see from al-Qaida," said Brian Fishman, a counterterrorism researcher at the New America Foundation in Washington.

Thus: if it turns out that the perpetrators weren't Muslim (but rather "someone with more political motivations" -- whatever that means: it presumably rests on the inane notion that Islamic radicals are motivated by religion, not political grievances), then it means that Terrorism, by definition, would be "ruled out" (one might think that the more politically-motivated an act of violence is, the more deserving it is of the Terrorism label, but this just proves that the defining feature of the word Terrorism is Muslim violence). The final version of the NYT article inserted the word "Islamic" before "terrorism" ("even if the authorities ultimately ruled out Islamic terrorism as the cause"), but -- as demonstrated above -- still preserved the necessary inference that only Muslims can be Terrorists. Meanwhile, in the world of reality, of 294 Terrorist attacks attempted or executed on European soil in 2009 as counted by the EU, a grand total of one -- 1 out of 294 -- was perpetrated by "Islamists."

[ElNono]

He defines himself as conservative christian on his FB page and was a member of libertarian-like party (anti-tax, pro-market, personal freedom) and its youth wing in the past.


I would say a liberal wacko

:lmao

[boutons_deux]

White "Christian" militant whacko right-winger bombing and murdering Soclialist party offices and kids at a Social party-run summer camp.

"I would say a liberal wacko" -- WC

[Ignignokt]

White "Christian" militant whacko right-winger bombing and murdering Soclialist party offices and kids at a Social party-run summer camp.

"I would say a liberal wacko" -- WC

That's pretty stupid for WC. It's no different tho if darrin by chance happens to stumble into something truthful and meaningful, which is rare, and everybody here decides to side with irrationality.

[Ignignokt]

*Slurp slurp* Obama um um um um good!.

[Winehole23]

^^^ back to whispering sweet nothings, I see.

[ChumpDumper]

Quality contribution by gtown.

[Wild Cobra]

The omnipotence of Al Qaeda and meaninglessness of "Terrorism"
BY GLENN GREENWALD

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/07/23/nyt/index.html

Yes, this is all hearsay still. So is what I heard for that matter. I heard an anonymous police insider said he did the bombing because of his antiwar stance, and because Norway participated in the wars against radical Islam. I don't think he's the same person as this blogger, but I could be wrong. I just tend to believe (yes my bias) what I heard.

[jack sommerset]

It's obvious he is a sick and twisted fuck. Norway needs to make an example out of him. He should be executed in the most painful way imaginable.Tear his fucking body apart.

[HighLowLobForBig-50]

i guess he made this
ps2GWengu1o

[Proxy]

Yes, this is all hearsay still. So is what I heard for that matter. I heard an anonymous police insider said he did the bombing because of his antiwar stance, and because Norway participated in the wars against radical Islam. I don't think he's the same person as this blogger, but I could be wrong. I just tend to believe (yes my bias) what I heard.

Well I heard he did the bombings because he felt that Islam was taking over... and that he's another idiot conservative Christian, so he was butthurt about the whole situation.

Nice to see the country handling it well...

"Refusing to let terrorists win by showing them you will not be cowed, that you refuse to violate freedoms, that you will embrace the principles they hate because they are the principles your people deserve? There's at least one other country I can think of that could learn something from this."

[Wild Cobra]

It's obvious he is a sick and twisted fuck. Norway needs to make an example out of him. He should be executed in the most painful way imaginable.Tear his fucking body apart.
With four horses?

[Wild Cobra]

Well I heard he did the bombings because he felt that Islam was taking over... and that he's another idiot conservative Christian, so he was butthurt about the whole situation.

Nice to see the country handling it well...

"Refusing to let terrorists win by showing them you will not be cowed, that you refuse to violate freedoms, that you will embrace the principles they hate because they are the principles your people deserve? There's at least one other country I can think of that could learn something from this."
Bottom line is, no "facts" about his reason are released yet. It is all hearsay at this point.

[boutons_deux]

Bottom line is, no "facts" about his reason are released yet. It is all hearsay at this point.

Right-Wing Pundits Jumped To Blame Muslims And ‘Jihadists’ For Norway Attacks

This is a sobering reminder for those who think it’s too expensive to wage a war against jihadists.

in jihadist eyes, [Norway] will always remain guilty

the WSJ rewrote the online version of the editorial, albeit by removing any trace of the above paragraph. Instead, it mentioned that it had falsely attributed the attacks to jihadists and called the attacker an al Qaeda “copycat.”

http://thinkprogress.org/security/2011/07/23/277310/wapos-jen-rubin-wsj-right-wing-pundits-jumped-to-blame-muslims-and-jihadists-for-norway-attacks/

[Wild Cobra]

Will be interesting to see if its domestic or foreign. They have a suspect in custody, I believe.
They have him is custody. The media has given the name, but the police haven't confirmed. He was a neo-Nazi if the several links I scanned are correct. Anders Behring Breivik is a 32 year old native Norwegian.

[CuckingFunt]

The omnipotence of Al Qaeda and meaninglessness of "Terrorism"
BY GLENN GREENWALD

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/07/23/nyt/index.html

Excellent article, by the way.

[Proxy]

Bottom line is, no "facts" about his reason are released yet. It is all hearsay at this point.

In the end, it doesn't matter if he was jihad or christian or atheist or a satanist. One person doesn't represent an entire social group, religion, or culture regardless. I think it's childish on anyone's part to really even care what his motives were.

[MannyIsGod]

What? You think its childish to care what his motives were? The fuck?

[baseline bum]

LOL. His rampage was the instantiation of Wild Cobra fantasy.

[Cane]

RIP. Reports indicate that several people including kids tried to swim their way to safety only to drown, get shot, or die of hypothermia. God damn island attack. :( :depressed

[RandomGuy]

I would say a liberal wacko who doesn't believe in his nations support or the wars.

You would say that.

You would also be pretty much wrong, as you usually are about a great many things.

Right-wing, christian fundamentalist, goes apeshit and murders 80+ kids at a left-wing youth retreat with an assault rifle.

http://news.yahoo.com/norway-gunman-fired-1-5-hours-island-170527353.html


He had ties to a right-leaning political party, he posted on Christian fundamentalist websites, and he rented a farm where he amassed six tons of fertilizer.

[Proxy]

What? You think its childish to care what his motives were? The fuck?

Does it matter? As long as this isn't a group organization.... what would be the benefit? Knowing if he was a liberal or conservative... christian or muslim... it would allow us to point fingers I guess.

I don't need to know that he was a christian conservative nutjob, to know that most christian conservatives are nutjobs. /joking /but not really joking

ps - mostly making the point that Osama doesn't represent the entire Islamic religion

[Wild Cobra]

You would say that.

You would also be pretty much wrong, as you usually are about a great many things.

Right-wing, christian fundamentalist, goes apeshit and murders 80+ kids at a left-wing youth retreat with an assault rifle.

http://news.yahoo.com/norway-gunman-fired-1-5-hours-island-170527353.html
I agree, I was wrong. Now that more reliable information is being uncovered, it appears he was a neo-Nazi nationalist.

as for a Christian Fundamentalist, maybe he was part of such a group, but that doesn't mean he believed. I was once a member of the Quaker church. Never know that with my military stances.

[RandomGuy]

Bei dem mutmaßlichen Täter handelt es sich laut Polizei um einen "christlichen Fundamentalisten" mit Kontakten zu rechtsextremen Kreisen. Die Ermittler gehen eigenen Angaben zufolge unter Hochdruck Hinweisen auf einen zweiten Schützen nach, der an dem Blutbad auf der Insel beteiligt gewesen sein könnte. Vier bis fünf Menschen werden demnach auf Utöya noch vermisst. Ministerpräsident Jens Stoltenberg sprach von einer "nationalen Tragödie". Er besuchte das Gelände, auf dem einige Überlebende des Angriffs auf die rund 600 Teilnehmer des Sommercamps auf Utöya versammelt waren. Der festgenommene Verdächtige nutzte für seine Taten womöglich aus Kunstdünger hergestellte Sprengsätze. "Wir haben ihm Anfang Mai sechs Tonnen Dünger verkauft", sagte die Sprecherin einer landwirtschaftlichen Kooperative. Norwegische Medien gaben den Namen des mutmaßlichen Täters mit Anders B. B. an. Auf dessen Facebook-Seite beschreibt sich ein blonder Mann als "konservativ" und "christlich". Er sei Leiter eines Bio-Bauernhofs, Junggeselle und interessiere sich für . Sommercamp-Teilnehmer berichteten, der Angreifer, der nach dem Anschlag in Oslo offenbar die Fähre nach Utöya nahm, habe sich ihnen als Polizist verkleidet genähert...

http://de.nachrichten.yahoo.com/offenbar-mehr-90-tote-doppelanschlag-norwegen-081919388.html

Facebook page for the guy describes himself as "conservative christian"

The left wing political party was having its annual youth summer camp. Party name is Utöya

Goes on in a bit more detail about his online activities, something about a gaming group he was a leader of that played wargames.

Guy used to belong to a right wing party:
Fortschrittspartei (Progress Party)

Then went on to become a member of the right wing Swedish extremist website "Nordisk".

[Wild Cobra]

http://de.nachrichten.yahoo.com/offenbar-mehr-90-tote-doppelanschlag-norwegen-081919388.html

Facebook page for the guy describes himself as "conservative christian"

The left wing political party was having its annual youth summer camp. Party name is Utöya

Goes on in a bit more detail about his online activities, something about a gaming group he was a leader of that played wargames.

Guy used to belong to a right wing party:
Fortschrittspartei (Progress Party)

Then went on to become a member of the right wing Swedish extremist website "Nordisk".

As for how he describes himself, that doesn't mean he practiced his stated beliefs, or really was. He obviously didn't practice the "though shall not kill" part!

[RandomGuy]

Er war Biobauer, er liebte Bodybuildung, er las Kafka, er spielte „World of Warcraft“ und bezeichnete sich als Christ.

http://www.bild.de/news/ausland/news-ausland/auf-dieser-farm-bereitete-anders-behring-breivik-das-morden-vor-19021592.bild.html

Goes on a bit more about his reading interests and so forth. Kafka, "1984" and some others.

Not sure I would call WoW a "wargame".

[Wild Cobra]

http://www.bild.de/news/ausland/news-ausland/auf-dieser-farm-bereitete-anders-behring-breivik-das-morden-vor-19021592.bild.html

Goes on a bit more about his reading interests and so forth. Kafka, "1984" and some others.

Not sure I would call WoW a "wargame".
Yes, I know. He also enjoyed "Trueblood."

[RandomGuy]

As for how he describes himself, that doesn't mean he practiced his stated beliefs, or really was. He obviously didn't practice the "though shall not kill" part!

Meh.

When people feel their beliefs about God are threatened somehow, they rationalize killing with a rather disturbing regularity. No different than the religious nutters that populate AQ.

[RandomGuy]

Cue the apologists:

"my religions nutjobs are very different than that other religions nutjobs"

[RandomGuy]

I mean if a muslim kills people we expect that because that is just the nature of islam, but if a Christian does it, he isn't really a Christian.

I can see it now. The only thing we need to concern ourselves with is who will actually not get the hypocrisy and say it first...

(edit)

Just to be clear the quote was intended to be generic and not indicative of any one particular person. Sorry if it appeared otherwise.

[Wild Cobra]

I can see it now. The only thing we need to concern ourselves with is who will actually not get the hypocrisy and say it first...
You really go out of your way to use your hatred of me, don't you? there's a pretty distinctive difference between the two cultures.

[RandomGuy]

You really go out of your way to use your hatred of me, don't you? there's a pretty distinctive difference between the two cultures.

I don't hate you. Actually I rather like you, warts, moronic opinions and all.

Besides, post you were responding to was generic.

Do you want to claim the idea as your own?

[RandomGuy]

You really go out of your way to use your hatred of me, don't you? there's a pretty distinctive difference between the two cultures.

As for "cultures" I would be willing to bet a cool c-spot you don't know jack shit about muslim "culture" beyond what Fox "news" and chain emails tells you to know.

You probably don't have any muslim friends, have never lived in any muslim country, and never talked politics with a muslim.

Tell me I'm wrong.

[xeromass]

Firstly, mea culpa, he isn't Fjordman the left wing blogger but was inspired by him.

Dude actually published 1516 pages long declaration in English covering whole ideological background, how to procure & produce fertilizer bombs and all kinds of weapons, his diary from may 22nd...

http://www.2shared.com/file/M-s-2fBD/2083-EuropeanDeclarationofInd.html

Diary is at the end.

Snippet from beginning:

Sacrifices made when creating the compendium

I’ve spent a total of 9 years of my life working on this project. The first five years were spent studying and creating a financial base, and the last three years was spent working full time with research, compilation and writing. Creating this compendium has personally cost me a total of 317 000 Euros (130 000 Euros spent from my own pocket and 187 500 Euros for loss of income during three years). All that, however, is barely noticeable compared to the sacrifices made in relation to the distribution of this book, the actual marketing operation;)

[Wild Cobra]

As for "cultures" I would be willing to bet a cool c-spot you don't know jack shit about muslim "culture" beyond what Fox "news" and chain emails tells you to know.

You probably don't have any muslim friends, have never lived in any muslim country, and never talked politics with a muslim.

Tell me I'm wrong.
You are wrong. I've worked with Muslims.

[RandomGuy]

Firstly, mea culpa, he isn't Fjordman the left wing blogger but was inspired by him.

Dude actually published 1516 pages long declaration in English covering whole ideological background, how to procure & produce fertilizer bombs and all kinds of weapons, his diary from may 22nd...

http://www.2shared.com/file/M-s-2fBD/2083-EuropeanDeclarationofInd.html

Diary is at the end.

Snippet from beginning:

Sacrifices made when creating the compendium

I’ve spent a total of 9 years of my life working on this project. The first five years were spent studying and creating a financial base, and the last three years was spent working full time with research, compilation and writing. Creating this compendium has personally cost me a total of 317 000 Euros (130 000 Euros spent from my own pocket and 187 500 Euros for loss of income during three years). All that, however, is barely noticeable compared to the sacrifices made in relation to the distribution of this book, the actual marketing operation;)





Sure let me go right out and download a 1500 page bomb making manual on my home computer, just as long as it is the same one recently used by a mass murderer whose online activiites are being closely monitored and investigated by various police and law enforcement organizations.

[RandomGuy]

You are wrong. I've worked with Muslims.

You ever talked religion or politics with them? Would you consider them friends?

[Wild Cobra]

You ever talked religion or politics with them? Would you consider them friends?
You are jumping to conclusions I bet. Never discussed such things, and I have no problem with the few I know. I have stated on several occasions it's the radicals I dislike. Now consider this. It is impossible, if not, next to impossible to read from the Bible it is OK to commit mass murder, without a direct confrontational reason. It's very easy to do the same with the Koran.

Now I have met one from Intel some time back. I was always wondering if he was the same one that was part of a local Al-Qaeda cell here in Portland.

[xeromass]

Sure let me go right out and download a 1500 page bomb making manual on my home computer, just as long as it is the same one recently used by a mass murderer whose online activiites are being closely monitored and investigated by various police and law enforcement organizations.

a) If that's current state of mind in USA - I feel sorry for you. "the land of the free and the home of the brave...with liberty and justice for all"

b) I'm quite certain that it will become one of the most downloaded files in the following days&weeks

[Wild Cobra]

a) If that's current state of mind in USA - I feel sorry for you. "the land of the free and the home of the brave...with liberty and justice for all"

b) I'm quite certain that it will become one of the most downloaded files in the following days&weeks
I am tempted myself out of curiosity. 1500 pages though...

[RandomGuy]

As for "cultures" I would be willing to bet a cool c-spot you don't know jack shit about muslim "culture" beyond what Fox "news" and chain emails tells you to know.

You probably don't have any muslim friends, have never lived in any muslim country, and never talked politics with a muslim.

Tell me I'm wrong.


You are wrong. I've worked with Muslims.


You ever talked religion or politics with them? Would you consider them friends?


You are jumping to conclusions I bet. Never discussed such things, and I have no problem with the few I know. I have stated on several occasions it's the radicals I dislike. Now consider this. It is impossible, if not, next to impossible to read from the Bible it is OK to commit mass murder, without a direct confrontational reason. It's very easy to do the same with the Koran.

Now I have met one from Intel some time back. I was always wondering if he was the same one that was part of a local Al-Qaeda cell here in Portland.

That is an awefully evasive answer. The questions were pretty much yes or no.

So I can assume the answer is no, you have no muslim friends, and no you have never actually talked politics or religion with muslims.

I did jump to a conclusion, but allowed a qualifying "probably" for the possibility you might surprise me.

Your non-answer confirmed my jumped-to conclusions.

[RandomGuy]

a) If that's current state of mind in USA - I feel sorry for you. "the land of the free and the home of the brave...with liberty and justice for all"

b) I'm quite certain that it will become one of the most downloaded files in the following days&weeks

I don't think the FBI will go about raiding my house because I download it, but I would prefer not to get on some watch list.

I have a 250 page GAO audit of the Fed to read first anyways. :D

[MannyIsGod]

Does it matter? As long as this isn't a group organization.... what would be the benefit? Knowing if he was a liberal or conservative... christian or muslim... it would allow us to point fingers I guess.

I don't need to know that he was a christian conservative nutjob, to know that most christian conservatives are nutjobs. /joking /but not really joking

ps - mostly making the point that Osama doesn't represent the entire Islamic religion

Of course it matters to know what their motivations are. That has nothing to do with the obvious point that he doesn't represent a large majority of people (nor does Osama).

[DarrinS]

Of course it matters to know what their motivations are. That has nothing to do with the obvious point that he doesn't represent a large majority of people (nor does Osama).

When they discover that this guy was part of a vast, organized network, let me know.

[ElNono]

as for a Christian Fundamentalist, maybe he was part of such a group, but that doesn't mean he believed.

You don't need to make excuses for him or Christian Fundamentalists, tbh.

[ElNono]

You really go out of your way to use your hatred of me, don't you? there's a pretty distinctive difference between the two cultures.

I'm not sure there's a really distinctive difference when you're talking about extremists, on either side.

[Wild Cobra]

I'm not sure there's a really distinctive difference when you're talking about extremists, on either side.
I consider his Nazi ties more pertinent than his claiming to be Christian.

[Spurminator]

When they discover that this guy was part of a vast, organized network, let me know.

He's obviously a part of the vast organized network of Christianity. I mean, right?

[ElNono]

I consider his Nazi ties more pertinent than his claiming to be Christian.

If you can't tell the difference between "Christian Fundamentalist" and "Christian", then I don't expect you to know the difference between "Radical Muslim" and "Muslim".

There's people to this day that claim that Hitler was a Christian Fundamentalist himself. (I won't argue the case since I don't know the background of the claim).

The point is: Nutcases are nutcases. Some extremist views cater much easier to those nutjobs. I don't know that any religion matters much. I would guess they just seek confirmation bias in anything they can find.

[Ignignokt]

If you can't tell the difference between "Christian Fundamentalist" and "Christian", then I don't expect you to know the difference between "Radical Muslim" and "Muslim".

There's people to this day that claim that Hitler was a Christian Fundamentalist himself. (I won't argue the case since I don't know the background of the claim).

The point is: Nutcases are nutcases. Some extremist views cater much easier to those nutjobs. I don't know that any religion matters much. I would guess they just seek confirmation bias in anything they can find.

Christ nor paul compelled their followers to wage war. So no, killing in the name of Christ is not a fundamental tennet. It's different for Islam.

[Winehole23]

When they discover that this guy was part of a vast, organized network, let me know.Extremist ideologies can be found with one or two clicks. You don't even need a vast network. All it takes is one passionate, prepared guy.

[Ignignokt]

Quality contribution by gtown.

thank you.

[Ignignokt]

Extremist ideologies can be found with one or two clicks. You don't even need a vast network. All it takes is one passionate, prepared guy.

At the moment, one extreme ideology is constrained to pshychopaths, loners, and some small groups.

The other is state sponsored, seminary sponsored, global, well equipped in finance and arms, and has the backing of text.

This atrocity was committed by a right wing nut, no doubt. But let's not equivocate.

[Winehole23]

The treason of multiculturalism in Norway is paid for by the ruling libs and the poor people at that summer camp, holy fuck. At the hands of a fellow countryman.

How typical.

[Winehole23]

At the moment, one extreme ideology is constrained to pshychopaths, loners, and some small groups.The right.


The other is state sponsored, seminary sponsored, global, well equipped in finance and arms, and has the backing of text.Text? Can you amplify on that? I assume you mean the left.

This atrocity was committed by a right wing nut, no doubt. But let's not equivocate.First of all, you said it so it's bullshit. That's a given. This guy killed upwards of 80 people all by himself.

[Winehole23]

WTF do you mean by equivocate?

Between what terms? You did not specify.

[velik_m]

Now consider this. It is impossible, if not, next to impossible to read from the Bible it is OK to commit mass murder, without a direct confrontational reason.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e1/John_Martin_-_Sodom_and_Gomorrah.jpg/800px-John_Martin_-_Sodom_and_Gomorrah.jpg

The Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, John Martin, 1852

Also the crusades were a defensive war.

[ChumpDumper]

It's OK for God to commit mass murder.

[ElNono]

Christ nor paul compelled their followers to wage war. So no, killing in the name of Christ is not a fundamental tennet. It's different for Islam.

But that didn't stop Christian Fundamentalists from killing in the name of Christ, did it?

Point being that a moderate Christian or Islam follower understands killing is wrong/bad. Extremists on the other hand...

[DarrinS]

But that didn't stop Christian Fundamentalists from killing in the name of Christ, did it?

Point being that a moderate Christian or Islam follower understands killing is wrong/bad. Extremists on the other hand...

Muslim extremists still have 98% market share.

[ElNono]

Muslim extremists still have 98% market share.

Perhaps contemporaneously. Historically it's a lot more debatable. Specifically to this case, it appears that none.

[boutons_deux]

Erick Ericson lends us his Christian supremacist Taleban spin

God and Oslo

http://www.redstate.com/erick/2011/07/23/god-and-oslo/

[MannyIsGod]

Muslim extremists still have 98% market share.

Yeah - no. Shows how unaware of terrorists groups you are. A lot of terrorist attacks in the past few decades don't have anything to with religion.

[Winehole23]

Muslim extremists still have 98% market share.Bullshit. Domestic terror is more typical, there and here.

[Winehole23]

I see you've paid little attention to our previous conversations. Do you need the links again?

[CosmicCowboy]

Yeah - no. Shows how unaware of terrorists groups you are. A lot of terrorist attacks in the past few decades don't have anything to with religion.

Actually this one had something to do with religion. The yin of the yang.

[Spurminator]

Muslim extremists still have 98% market share.

Read the last sentence of the Greenwald column I posted.

[boutons_deux]

As The Right Bemoans Norway’s Criminal Justice System, It Is One Of The Safest Countries On Earth

Many right wingers, particularly those in the United States, are now bemoaning Norway’s criminal justice system, noting that the country uses a maximum sentencing law that typically only allows prisoners to be jailed for 21 years

- Norway Has Some Of The Lowest Murder Rates In The World: In 2009, Norway had .6 intentional homicides per 100,000 people. In the same year, the United States had 5 murders per 100,000 people, meaning that the U.S. proportionally has 8 times as many homicides.

- Norway’s Incarceration Rate Is A Fraction Of That Of The United States: 71 out of every 100,000 Norwegian citizens is incarcerated. In the United States, 743 out of every 100,000 citizens was incarcerated in 2009. The U.S. has the world’s highest incarceration rate.

- Norway’s Prisoner Recidivism Rate Is Much Lower Than The United States’: The recidivism rate for prisoners in Norway is around 20 percent. Meanwhile, it’s estimated that 67 percent of America’s prisoners are re-arrested and 52 percent are re-incarcerated.

While many Americans may have an understandable emotional reaction to a country that strives to treat even the most heinous of murderers humanely, they should also be aware of the fact that Norway’s criminal justice system appears to have produced a nation that is much safer and imprisons far less of its people than the United States or just about any other country.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/07/25/277771/norway-is-safe/

[boutons_deux]

Glenn Beck Compares The Youth Camp Attacked In Norway To The Hitler Youth

as the thing started to unfold and there was a shooting a political camp, which sounds a little like the Hitler Youth or you know whatever. Who does a camp for kids that’s all about politics? Disturbing. But, anyway, so there’s this political camp and so crazy man goes and starts shooting kids.”

http://www.politicususa.com/en/glenn-beck-norway-hitler-youth?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+politicususa%2FfJAl+%28Politi cus+USA+%29

[Blake]

It's OK for God to commit mass murder.

well yeah because the murderer is bringing the believers up to a better place.

[baseline bum]

It's OK for God to commit mass murder.

It's because God created them. So why is everyone so pissed at Casey Anthony?

[Halberto]

Don't mean to derail the christian vs. Muslim debate, but am I the only one who isn't creeped out by the professional photos this guy paid for? Fucking crazy asshole... it shows how disturbed he really was.

[Proxy]

Muslim extremists still have 98% market share.

Your dogma isn't any better or worse than another. The fact that you even think your god is better than some other person's is the reason things like this happen, and the reason why the world hates us.

tl;dr - you're a moron

[DarrinS]

Your dogma isn't any better or worse than another. The fact that you even think your god is better than some other person's is the reason things like this happen, and the reason why the world hates us.

tl;dr - you're a moron

I'm sorry the truth hurt your feewings.

[boutons_deux]

What happened in Norway once, happens in 3 or 4 days, all year long, in USA. :)

[DarrinS]

What happened in Norway once, happens in 3 or 4 days, all year long, in USA. :)

It sounds just as dumb when Tavis says it

eH0YYic_JpY

[Proxy]

I'm sorry the truth hurt your feewings.

How are my feelings hurt?

and what truth?

[Halberto]

It sounds just as dumb when Tavis says it

eH0YYic_JpY


lol Columbine.... those kids were on tape claiming they were glad jesus was murdered.

[Winehole23]

I'm sorry the truth hurt your feewings.So you've said, many times, but you never backed up the truth of it. Instead you just assert it by fiat, over and over again.

.

[Winehole23]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,776287,00.html

[Wild Cobra]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,776287,00.html
If only someone had a concealed carry. They could have taken out the shooter before he killed so many.

[ChumpDumper]

If only someone had a concealed carry. They could have taken out the shooter before he killed so many.What was the over/under on the appearance of this chestnut?

Hack.

[ChumpDumper]

If only all the children had been armed with assault rifles of their own....

[Winehole23]

Police identified Gunnar Linaker and three victims of the bombing: Tove Aashill Knutsen, 56; Hanna M Orvik Endresen, 61, and Kai Hauge, 33. http://www.smh.com.au/world/first-named-victims-of-oslo-massacre-remembered-20110727-1i0dm.html#ixzz1TJimxZ33

[MannyIsGod]

If only someone had a concealed carry. They could have taken out the shooter before he killed so many.

Something tells me that Norway's laws are doing just fine as it is. They certainly have a much better handle on crime and murder - even with this event - than the United States does.

And this is spoken as someone who is a proponent of concealed carry.

[Spurminator]

They certainly have a much better handle on crime and murder - even with this event - than the United States does.


God, no kidding. It's really sad watching the U.S. media dissect Norwegian crime policy.

[boutons_deux]

American guns kill Norway's number every 3 days, all year long. (up your ass, NRA gun fetishists!)

As if anybody but Glen BecKKKs devotees needed more evidence what a liar and slanderer BecKKK is:

Glenn Beck's 'Hitler Youth' Slur on Norway Victims Confuses WWII Sides

The young people who gathered at the camp on the Norwegian island of Utoya [4] were the opposite of Hitler Youth. In fact, they were the direct descendants, individually and ideologically, of the courageous young socialists who played such a vital role in the Norwegian resistance to the Nazis.

The campers who were attacked were members of the Norway’s Arbeidernes Ungdomsfylking (AUF), the Workers’ Youth League [5] that is the youth wing of the country’s social democratic Labour Party [6]. In the aftermath of World War II, the Oslo Trade Union Confederation purchased the island and given as a gift to the AUF in recognition of the sacrifices that young socialists had made in the struggle against fascism.

When Hitler’s Nazi armies invaded and occupied Norway in 1940, they banned the AUF and imprisoned its leader, Gunnar Sand. His successor as head of the AUF, Trygve Bratteli [7], led the Labour Party’s crisis committee following the Nazi invasion of Norway before his arrest by the Germans in 1942. Imprisoned in a series of concentration camps, he was liberated in April, 1945, Bratteli returned to Norway as a hero who led the AUF in the postwar years and eventually became Norway’s prime minister.

So Beck has got things exactly wrong with his reference to “Hitler Youth.”

http://www.thenation.com/print/blog/162287/glenn-becks-hitler-youth-slur-norway-victims-confuses-wwii-sides

[MannyIsGod]

God, no kidding. It's really sad watching the U.S. media dissect Norwegian crime policy.

Its the equivalent of a fat smoker with lung cancer and heart disease telling a marathon runner that he needs to get healthier and this 16 oz steak is the way to do it.

It would be nice to hear one of our leaders for once say "hey look at them - we can actually learn something from them - we're NOT actually perfect."

[boutons_deux]

Paraphrasing the Frenchman who said after 9/11: "We are all Americans now"

How about after "Norway's 9/11":

"We Americans are all Norwegians now (have been for decades)"

[Wild Cobra]

Something tells me that Norway's laws are doing just fine as it is. They certainly have a much better handle on crime and murder - even with this event - than the United States does.

And this is spoken as someone who is a proponent of concealed carry.
Well, as I see it, if someone wants to kill, they will do it with the next best thing available. The society isn't repressed like ours is. I would attribute that to having less crime, not the lack of guns. Like anywhere, if a criminal wants a better weapon than what can be legally obtained, he will get it illegally. After all, he's already committing a serious crime, why not a lesser one too?

Comes down to this. If one or more adult at the gathering has a legal weapon, the killer likely would have never killed so many before being stopped.

Guns don't kill, people kill with guns... and other weapons.

[MannyIsGod]

Well, as I see it, if someone wants to kill, they will do it with the next best thing available. The society isn't repressed like ours is. I would attribute that to having less crime, not the lack of guns. Like anywhere, if a criminal wants a better weapon than what can be legally obtained, he will get it illegally. After all, he's already committing a serious crime, why not a lesser one too?

Comes down to this. If one or more adult at the gathering has a legal weapon, the killer likely would have never killed so many before being stopped.

Guns don't kill, people kill with guns... and other weapons.

:lmao

So instead of taking anything from Norway's system and asking yourself why they don't have such high crime and murder rates you want them to incorporate parts of our system to lower their crime and murder rates?

:lol:lol:lol:lol

[Blake]

Guns don't kill, people kill with guns... and other weapons.

if it were feasible, should it be legal for a citizen to make a homemade nuclear bomb?

[baseline bum]

if it were feasible, should it be legal for a citizen to make a homemade nuclear bomb?

Nope. You would never use a nuclear bomb to protect your house from a burglar or stave off a carjacking. Same reason I don't favor grenades being legal.

[Blake]

Nope. You would never use a nuclear bomb to protect your house from a burglar or stave off a carjacking. Same reason I don't favor grenades being legal.

WC left his post open ended with "....other weapons"

was wondering if a nuke was one of those other weapons.

[Wild Cobra]

:lmao

So instead of taking anything from Norway's system and asking yourself why they don't have such high crime and murder rates you want them to incorporate parts of our system to lower their crime and murder rates?

:lol:lol:lol:lol
I already said why Norway has such a low crime rate. I'm only saying that legal weapons do not add to people committing crimes.

Look at Switzerland!

[LnGrrrR]

I would say a liberal wacko who doesn't believe in his nations support or the wars.

Fail.

[ChumpDumper]

The society isn't repressed like ours is. I would attribute that to having less crime, not the lack of guns.WTF does this mean?

[Wild Cobra]

WTF does this mean?
We have too many taboos in our society that many modern European countries do not. The stigmas and taboos cause people to feel bad thinking or doing certain things that in reality are natural and harmless. Repressed actions can lead to such crimes.

That's all I'm going to say on this. It is my opinion, so don't be a Chump over it.

[ChumpDumper]

We have too many taboos in our society that many modern European countries do not. The stigmas and taboos cause people to feel bad thinking or doing certain things that in reality are natural and harmless. Repressed actions can lead to such crimes.

That's all I'm going to say on this. It is my opinion, so don't be a Chump over it.Entertaining that you don't even want to explain yourself.

[Wild Cobra]

Fail.
A little late in the game on that one huh? How many posts back did I make my remark, then indicate I was thinking otherwise? That was post # 16, yours is #118. In post #30 I say what was in discussion was "hearsay" which included what I heard, which my opinion was based on.

[ChumpDumper]

A little late in the game on that one huh? How many posts back did I make my remark, then indicate I was thinking otherwise? That was post # 16, yours is #118. In post #30 I say what was in discussion was "hearsay" which included what I heard, which my opinion was based on.You still failed.

[Wild Cobra]

You still failed.
I'm sure I did in your twisted mind.

[ChumpDumper]

I'm sure I did in your twisted mind.No need to twist anything.

You said it was a "liberal wacko who doesn't believe in his nations [sic] support or the wars."

That was an abject failure.

[Wild Cobra]

No need to twist anything.

You said it was a "liberal wacko who doesn't believe in his nations [sic] support or the wars."

That was an abject failure.
No. You fail.

That was obviously an opinion, based on the hearsay information at hand at the time, which I was fully aware could be wrong. I'm sorry if you prejudice doesn't read my words that way. That's your problem. Not mine.

Now I suggest you keep this about the purpose of the thread, and stop tying to make it about other posters, like your sorry ass always does.

If you want to dump on me, then start an appropriate thread.

[ChumpDumper]

No. You fail.

That was obviously an opinion, based on the hearsay information at hand at the time, which I was fully aware could be wrong. I'm sorry if you prejudice doesn't read my words that way. That's your problem. Not mine.

Now I suggest you keep this about the purpose of the thread, and stop tying to make it about other posters, like your sorry ass always does.

If you want to dump on me, then start an appropriate thread.Why are you so butthurt about your failure?

It happens so often you should be used to it by now.

That's your problem, not mine.

[Wild Cobra]

Why are you so butthurt about your failure?

It happens so often you should be used to it by now.

That's your problem, not mine.
You're just an ankle biter. Go away.

[Drachen]

Wow! If only we could all be as gracious as this guy. I think their response tells a lot about their culture.
interview with a survivor (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2011/0728/1224301500283.html)

[Drachen]

Dupe.

[LnGrrrR]

It is impossible, if not, next to impossible to read from the Bible it is OK to commit mass murder, without a direct confrontational reason.

Sodom and Gomorrah?

Noah's flood?

[Wild Cobra]

Sodom and Gomorrah?

Noah's flood?
And such actions make it acceptable for one man to judge another over?

What about the 6th commandment?

[LnGrrrR]

And such actions make it acceptable for one man to judge another over?

What about the 6th commandment?

Who said anything about judging? You said it's near impossible to read from the Bible that it's ok to commit mass murder. I provided examples of mass murder that are shown in the Bible in a positive light.

And while there may not be a passage directly exhorting his followers to outright murder, there sure are plenty of passages in the Bible in which God tells his chosen to do a whole bunch of stuff we would consider immoral nowadays.

[ChumpDumper]

You're just an ankle biter. Go away.You're just mad because you failed.

[Wild Cobra]

Who said anything about judging? You said it's near impossible to read from the Bible that it's ok to commit mass murder. I provided examples of mass murder that are shown in the Bible in a positive light.

And while there may not be a passage directly exhorting his followers to outright murder, there sure are plenty of passages in the Bible in which God tells his chosen to do a whole bunch of stuff we would consider immoral nowadays.
Yes, but Man is not God.

[LnGrrrR]

A little late in the game on that one huh? How many posts back did I make my remark, then indicate I was thinking otherwise? That was post # 16, yours is #118. In post #30 I say what was in discussion was "hearsay" which included what I heard, which my opinion was based on.

I just felt like pointing it out. You're quick to claim bias from other people; it's good you've started recognizing your own. It's a start. :)

[LnGrrrR]

Yes, but Man is not God.

So mass murder CAN be seen as ok.

What abuot if God tells people to kill others? That's ok too then, right?

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/holywar.html

A gem:


Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’ ”


That sounds like something... something massive... involving some form of death...

Numbers 31 is full of goodies.



Moses said to them, “Have you let all the women live? 16 Behold, these, on Balaam’s advice, caused the people of Israel to act treacherously against the Lord in the incident of Peor, and so the plague came among the congregation of the Lord. 17 Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with
him. 18 But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves. 19 Encamp outside the camp seven days. Whoever of you has killed any person and whoever has touched any
slain, purify yourselves and your captives on the third day and on the seventh day.


Yup, don't get how you could get the idea that mass murder is ok with God from the Bible...

[ChumpDumper]

And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

2 Kings 2:23-24 (KJV)

Why did God do that?

[ChumpDumper]

And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

Ezekiel 9:4-6 (KJV)

I guess it's just God's will and can't be questioned, but it sure is mass murder.

[DarrinS]

I believe in a God, but I'll have to admit that Bible and Koran literalists give me the heebee-jeebees.

[RandomGuy]

And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

2 Kings 2:23-24 (KJV)

Why did God do that?

"Gather ye children around me, that I may sic a bear on you?"

Dang. Read the Bible a couple of times, but don't remember this part.

Bronze age moralism don't play well these days.

[Winehole23]

http://file.bdnews24.com/av/pimage/2011/07/2011-07-24-19-55-24-Norway%20memorial%20service%20for%20massacre%20and %20bomb%20victims.jpg

[Winehole23]

http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2011/07/26/1226101/723438-norway-memorial.jpg

[Winehole23]

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01954/Norway-memorial_1954348i.jpg (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/8657775/Norway-terrorist-attacks-in-pictures.html?image=31)

[Winehole23]

http://images.publicradio.org/content/2011/07/25/20110725_norway_memorial1_33.jpg

[Creepn]

"Gather ye children around me, that I may sic a bear on you?"

Dang. Read the Bible a couple of times, but don't remember this part.

Bronze age moralism don't play well these days.

lol Basically ya.

http://timcooley.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/shebears.jpg


A good read. I recommend.

[Blake]

lol Basically ya.

http://timcooley.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/shebears.jpg


A good read. I recommend.

:lmao

[RandomGuy]

lol Basically ya.

http://timcooley.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/shebears.jpg


A good read. I recommend.

Pshaw. That's nuthin'.

You should read the old Stuwwelpeter series of real kids books from like 1845.

Among those gems:


In "Die Geschichte vom Daumenlutscher" (The Story of the Thumb-Sucker), a mother warns her son not to suck his thumbs. However, when she goes out of the house he resumes his thumb sucking, until a roving tailor appears and cuts off his thumbs with giant scissors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struwwelpeter

Had to read that for a German literature class, among others. You don't want to know what happens to you if you pick your nose.

Good ol' Herr Doktor Mollenauer didn't pull any punches on the darker themes of old school german lit. Tip of the hat to ya whereever you are Dr. M.

[LnGrrrR]

Pfft that's nothing on Hans Christian Anderson. Ever read the Little Matchstick Girl?

[Winehole23]

Anders Behring Breivik, Mystery Man


Following the money trail


by Justin Raimondo (http://original.antiwar.com/author/justin/), July 29, 2011



What do we really know about Anders Behring Breivik (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik), the Norway mass murderer (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/28/norway-shooting-utoya-search-ends) who killed in the name of his anti-Muslim ideology (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=89a_1311444384), nearly a week after his horrific rampage? We know what he did, and why he did it: he left behind not only a 1,500 page manifesto (http://unitednations.ispnw.org/archives/breivik-manifesto-2011.pdf), in which he pours out his hatred of Muslims, but also a day-by-day diary (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:yEA4D8YAOcIJ:i2-files.tv2net.dk/182/25744182-811c41fbdde8c86f64ce28b4f4d3ab82.pdf+%22Events+on+ the+farm+from+May+2nd+2011+to+June+23rd+2011%22&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com) that details his elaborate preparations, in which he claims his crime was nine years in the making.


That’s an awfully long time for a "lone wolf (http://www.christianpost.com/news/norway-shooting-bombing-police-confirm-breivik-was-a-lone-wolf-53022/)" to keep his plans to himself, yet the head of Norway’s intelligence agency was quick to state (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14303363) Breivik acted alone – this is spite of Breivik’s own contention, in his online "book," that two other cells (http://www.rnw.nl/africa/bulletin/breivik-claims-collaboration-two-cells) of his "Knights Templar Europe" exist. Furthermore, according to Breivik, the Knights were founded at a London meeting in 2002, at which his British "mentor" and representatives from across the continent (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/26/us-norway-knights-europe-idUSTRE76P4Y620110726) were in attendance.


What we don’t know, however, is how he did it. Oh, he gives us a detailed account of his obsessive preparations, including how much protein he added to his weightlifting regimen. We know he set up a front company, Breivik Geofarm (http://www.2space.net/news/article/370531-1311432604/), supposedly devoted to the growing of tubers, which is how he managed to get the fertilizer that was a key component of his car bomb. What we don’t know, however, is where money came from.
Breivik hadn’t had much income recently, as detailed here (http://skattelister.no/skatt/profil/anders-behring-breivik-33747942/) – yet he seemed to have some assets. The exact source of these assets is unknown. According to him, he "earned his first million (http://www.todayonline.com/Hotnews/EDC110725-0000055/An-attack-that-was-nine-years-in-the-making-,,,) kroner as an entrepreneur at the age of 24." Yet a number of news accounts flatly contradict this, notably the Sydney Morning Herald, which reports (http://www.smh.com.au/national/modest-boy-who-became-a-mass-murderer-20110724-1hvh0.html):


"Government records suggest that despite his management qualifications, his early attempts at business were a failure until he established Breivik Geofarm in eastern Norway for the cultivation of ‘’vegetables, melons and tubers.’ The business would have given Breivik access to nitrogen-based fertilizer – one of the main ingredients of a fertilizer bomb."


Yet "Breivik Geofarm" was, according to Breivik, just a "front" company, a legal shell meant to shield his activities from prying eyes. We don’t know that he ever grew a single tuber. The Wall Street Journal tells (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903999904576469541141259936.html) us:


"Government records show Mr. Breivik registered a business, Geofarm, in May 2009, though its main business activity was at first listed as trading stocks and other investments. Tax records show he reported no income that year but listed 390,171 kroner (about $50,000) in unverified assets."


If Breivik’s business ventures were failures prior to the Geofarm project, then where did these unverified assets come from? According to (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/what-turned-anders-breivik-into-norways-worst-nightmare-2327214.html) the Independent:


"After school, Breivik did a brief stint in the army, and then appears to have gone from one job to the next. He is believed to have started a computer company and earned enough money to live in a luxury apartment and sport a Breitling watch. However, other reports suggest that for years he worked in a lowly call center and lived almost anonymously.


"… Exactly what he lived on in the run- up to the massacre remains a mystery. But his bank details reveal that in 2007, a sum equivalent to €80,000 (£70,000) was added to his account, which would have enabled him to live without having to work."

The mystery deepens….


Check out Breivik’s resume here (http://moorekwesi.blogspot.com/2011/07/personal-facts-about-andrew-berwick.html), wherein he claims to have been the "managing director" of "E-Commerce Group AS," which is described as a "part investment company – 50%, part sales/outsourcing company – 50%," with a "total of 7 employees: 3 in Norway, 1 in Russia, 1 in Indonesia, 1 in Romania, 1 in the US." Like Breivik Geofarm, he says:


"This was a front (milking cow) with the purpose of financing resistance/liberation related military operations. The company was successful although most of the funds were channeled through a Caribbean subsidiary (with base in Antigua, a location where European countries do not have access): Brentwood Solutions Limited with bank accounts in other Caribbean nations and Eastern Europe. E-Commerce Group was terminated in 2007 while most of the funds were channeled in an ‘unorthodox manner’ to Norway available to the coming intellectual and subsequent operations phase."


There is no online record of Breivik’s "E-Commerce Group AS," as far as I can see: an odd happenstance for an e-commerce outfit, wouldn’t you say? As for Brentwood Solutions Limited, there is no record of those guys, either: however, there is a Brentwood Solutions LLC in Naples, Florida. In any case, what I want to know is how did Breivik manage to get his hands on the equivalent of nearly $115,000 added to his account in 2007? If the money was legitimately earned, then why hide it in Caribbean and Eastern European banks and why go through "unorthodox" procedures in order to sneak it into Norway?


Okay, now let’s summarize what we know about Breivik’s money trail, based not on what he says in his diary but on what little investigative reporting has been done on the matter. It boils down to this: His tax records show a small income in 2007 – the year all that money miraculously appeared in his bank account – and a bit more in 2008. He had no reported income in 2006 and 2009. Prior to that, there is no evidence of his "first million" anywhere to be seen.


While his diary emphasizes that he saved every penny to finance his terrorist operation, there had to be some income coming in from somewhere. And then there’s that mysterious $115,000 – did he rob a bank? Or did he have a benefactor? Here is where Breivik’s money trail simply … trails off.


The idea that Breivik acted alone is absurd: he had to have help, just on logistical matters, never mind the financial side of such an operation. Furthermore, it’s hard – nay, impossible – to believe he kept the secret to himself for nine years. In order to escape detection, and have the means to carry off such a complicated operation, Breivik must have had some organized assistance – and not from amateurs, by any means. At this point, we don’t know from whom.

However, we can see in the reaction to his murderous assault a kind of support network (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/defending-norway-suspect-breivik-european-politicans-fire/story?id=14172688) that has sprung up, if not to defend him personally then to defend his motivations and the ethos from which his hatred welled up. As I have said in my other (http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2011/07/24/the-crusader/) columns (http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2011/07/26/the-return-of-the-neocons-prodigal-son/) on this subject, the so-called counter-jihadist (http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/04/discord-among-counter-jihadists-a-call-for-unity.html) milieu – whose writings were copiously (http://spencerwatch.com/2011/07/23/robert-spencer-and-co-linked-to-oslo-bomber-anders-behring-breivik/) cited in the online manifesto – provided the theoretical basis for Breivik’s horrific actions. The "anti-jihadist" pro-Israel blogosphere played an important role in reinforcing and elaborating Breivik’s crazed worldview, and there is even some frightening evidence that they played more of an activist role than that.


In a post dated June 24, 2007 (http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2007/06/email-from-norw.html), Pamela Geller, a leading (http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/06/911-mega-mosque-pamela-geller-vs-islamic-supremacist-liar-on-cnn-sunday-morning-june-6-2010-.html) light (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:IpAeubb3wUUJ:atlasshrugs2000.typepa d.com/about.html+%22Quotables+from+Notables%22+Geller&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com) of the counter-jihadi movement, posted the following on her web site:


"I am running an email I received from an Atlas reader in Norway. It is devastating in its matter-of-factness.



"Well, yes, the situation is worsening. Stepping up from 29 000 immigrants every year, in 2007 we will be getting a total of 35 000 immigrants from somalia, iran, iraq and afghanistan. The nations capital is already 50% muslim, and they ALL go there after entering Norway. Adding the 1.2 births per woman per year from muslim women, there will be 300 000+ muslims out of the then 480 000 inhabitants of that city.



"Orders from Libya and Iran say that Oslo will be known as Medina at the latest in 2010, although I consider this a PR-stunt nevertheless it is their plan.



"From Israel the hordes clawing at the walls of Jerusalem proclaim cheerfully that next year there will be no more Israel, and I know Israel shrugs this off as do I, and will mount a strike during the summer against all of its enemies in the middle east. This will make the muslims worldwide go into a frenzy, attacking everyone around them.



"We are stockpiling and caching weapons, ammunition and equipment. This is going to happen fast.



"Before, I thought about emigrating to Britain, Israel, USA, South Africa, etc. for taxes and politics, but instead (although I believe we are the very last generation on earth before the return of God) I will stay and fight for the right to this country and indeed the entire peninsula, for the God-fearing people, just in case this isn’t the end of the world after all. Doesn’t hurt to have a backup plan.



"It’s far from impossible to achieve, after all my people has done it every time before, in feats that match the ancient Greek, hebrew and british ‘legends’.



"Oslo and the southeast may fall easily, but there are other lines than ‘state’-borders drawn across this country since long before there was even a single muslim in the world, and we have held them this long, against everyone else too. We are entering a new golden age for my people, and those of a handful other countrys, but only through struggle.



"Never fear, Pamela. God is with you too in this coming time."

In the comments, one of Geller’s readers warns (http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2007/06/email-from-norw.html) that the author of the letter could be prosecuted by Swedish authorities. Geller replies (http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2007/06/email-from-norw.html): "Yes … which is why I ran it anonymously."


So here is some nut stockpiling "weapons, ammunition, and equipment," because "this is going to happen fast" – with Geller’s enthusiastic encouragement. Indeed, she’s so concerned her correspondent might be arrested that she’s protecting his identity.

Who is Geller’s mystery correspondent – is it the same Norwegian nut-case who ruthlessly cut down dozens of children (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/norway-massacre-we-are-still-in-shock-it-was-a-worst-nightmare-that-wont-go-away-2327922.html), or a different one waiting in the wings to do the same? Come on, Pamela – clear up the mystery. Or would you rather continue to shield your fellow "counter-jihadist"?


I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the leaders and "scholars" who provided Breivik with the intellectual and political support he needed also provided more substantial support, such as ensuring the confidentiality of communications with the "Knights." Geller has already gone on the public record (http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en#sclient=psy&hl=en&site=webhp&source=hp&q=edl+site:atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com&pbx=1&oq=edl+site:atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=4027l6220l1l7243l9l8l0l0l0l1l254l1561l0.3.5 l8l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=c8c7245972dc282d&biw=857&bih=704) as supporting the thugs of the English Defense League, who troll the streets (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/may/28/english-defence-league-guardian-investigation) of British cities looking for Muslim victims – why not Breivik?


Never has a "lone wolf" had this much company.http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2011/07/28/anders-behring-breivik-mystery-man/

[Winehole23]

http://americanpowerblog.blogspot.com/2011/07/charles-johnson-browbeats-forbes.html

[Winehole23]

http://twitter.com/#!/Lizardoid/status/97022922568384512

[boutons_deux]

One Muslim terroist means all Muslims are terrorists.

One Christian terrorist, who even writes a 1500 page manifesto filled with Christian ideas, means ... well, he's not really a Christian (or even a neo-Crusader), so no reflection at all on Christianity.

[boutons_deux]

Pat Buchanan: "Breivik May Be Right"

Pat Buchanan, however, has discovered in the insane bigotry that allegedly animated Anders Behring Breivik's horrendous acts of violence in Norway a lesson about Europe and Islam that we maybe should take to heart

As for a climactic conflict between a once-Christian West and an Islamic world that is growing in numbers and advancing inexorably into Europe for the third time in 14 centuries, on this one, Breivik may be right.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/201107260015

[Winehole23]

counter-Jehad =/= Christianity

[baseline bum]

lol Basically ya.

http://timcooley.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/shebears.jpg


A good read. I recommend.

LOL, that looks classic. There's a sample chapter on his website:

http://www.illustratedbiblestories.ca/census_1.htm

[ChumpDumper]

LOL, that looks classic. There's a sample chapter on his website:

http://www.illustratedbiblestories.ca/census_1.htm:lol No wonder Bachmann hates the census.

[Winehole23]

http://twitter.com/#!/Dr_Ulrichsen/status/94659245794000896

[boutons_deux]

respect is the "soft" aka civilized, kumbaya option, but <your religion here> supremacists by definition disrespek all other religions, to death.

Even Catholics say there is no salvation outside of Catholic church and without Catholic baptism (but they apparently have cancelled limbo, not sure what happened to those millions of limbo'd souls, went to Hell? Heaven? ).

I carpool with an Indian (South Asian) lady who's a Bible-thumping Christian, one who believes she can interpret the Bible anyway she wants, aka, "personal interpretation" and continual divine revelation, God speaking to her, aka non-rational Pentecostalism where facts are whatever you make up (eg, like pitbull bitch).

I asked her what about her culture's Hindu and Vedanta traditions. This very cool, highly intelligent (outside of "religion") lady got extremely hot and called Hinduism "LIE! ALL LIES!" :lol :lol :lol Typical VIOLENT exclusionism between worldviews. yawn, happens every damn time.

"Can't we all just get along?"

HELL NO! I KILL YOU, INFIDEL! GOD TOLD ME TO KILL YOU! :lol :lol

Or as the The Dude movie so memorably put it "Nobody Fucks with Jesus" :lol

[Winehole23]

Counter-jehad isn't Christianity. Breivik himself admitted he isn't a particularly religious guy.

[boutons_deux]

another crazy, hate-filled right-wing bitch:

Pam Geller Justifies Breivik’s Terrorism: Youth Camp Had More ‘Middle Eastern or Mixed’ Races Than ‘Pure Norwegian'

Popular hate blogger Pam Geller has received scrutiny in recent days as the public became aware that the right-wing terrorist in Norway, Anders Behring Breivik, had praised her blog andthoroughly cited her writing in his political manifesto. After a number of blogs made the connection, as well as the New York Times, theAtlantic, and other major outlets, Geller became incensed and began lashing out at her critics.

In a post defending herself yesterday, Geller — who has called Obama “President Jihad” and claimed that Arab language classes are a plot to subvert the United States — reached a new low. Geller justifies Breivik’s attack on the Norwegian Labour Party summer youth camp because she says the camp is part of an anti-Israel “indoctrination training center.” She says the victims would have grown up to become “future leaders of the party responsible for flooding Norway with Muslims who refuse to assimilate, who commit major violence against Norwegian natives including violent gang rapes, with impunity, and who live on the dole.”

http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/642563/pam_geller_justifies_breivik%E2%80%99s_terrorism%3 A_youth_camp_had_more_%E2%80%98middle_eastern_or_m ixed%E2%80%99_races_than_%E2%80%98pure_norwegian%2 7/

[RandomGuy]

Christian terrorist Breivik may have filmed attack.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2024785/Norway-shooting-gunman-Anders-Behring-Breivik-filmed-Utoya-massacre.html?ITO=1490


'We have information from his manifesto and from earlier interrogations indicating that he did have a camera,' Mr Hatlo said.

They are sifting through 600+ cameras at the moment, it could take a while.

[Winehole23]

um, wow

[Winehole23]

Judge Torkjel Nesheim asked Breivik how he pleaded to the charges. Breivik responded: "I admit doing the actions, but I plead not guilty."http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/nervous-breivik-pleads-not-guilty-to-norway-massacre-6262379.html

[RandomGuy]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/nervous-breivik-pleads-not-guilty-to-norway-massacre-6262379.html

Cookoo for cocoa puffs.

[Winehole23]

Cookoo for cocoa puffs.
not at the time of the crime, according to the latest assessment:

Anders Behring Breivik (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/anders-behring-breivik), the Norwegian extremist who has confessed to killing 77 people in a bomb and shooting rampage, is not criminally insane, according to a psychiatric assessment issued on Tuesday which contradicts an earlier assessment.


The conclusion comes six days before Breivik is scheduled to go on trial on terror charges for the massacre on 22 July 2011. Though not definitive, it suggests he could serve the maximum penalty of 21 years in prison rather than being detained indefinitely in a secure psychiatric institution.


The statement conflicts with an examination that diagnosed Breivik as psychotic, and therefore unfit for prison. The first, much criticised review concluded he had paranoid schizophrenia.
Some experts questioned whether someone with a grave mental illness would be capable of carrying out attacks requiring such meticulous preparation.


The new assessment was made by Terje Toerrissen and Agnar Aspaas, both psychiatrists, following a court request after the criticism of the first diagnosis. "The main conclusion of the experts is that Anders Behring Breivik is found to [have not been] psychotic during the time of his actions on 22 July 2011," the Oslo court said in a statement.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/10/norway-massacre-suspect-not-insane?newsfeed=true

[Winehole23]

A Norwegian court sentenced Anders Behring Breivik to prison on Friday, denying prosecutors the insanity ruling they hoped would show that his massacre of 77 people was the work of a madman, not part of an anti-Muslim crusade.

Breivik smiled with apparent satisfaction when Judge Wenche Elisabeth Arntzen read the ruling, declaring him sane enough to be held criminally responsible and sentencing him to “preventive detention,” which means it is unlikely he will ever be released.
The sentence brings a form of closure to Norway, which was shaken to its core by the bomb and gun attacks on July 22, 2011, because Breivik’s lawyers said before the ruling that he would not appeal any ruling that did not declare him insane.


Prosecutors had argued Breivik was crazy as he plotted his attacks to draw attention to a rambling “manifesto” that blamed Muslim immigration for the disintegration of European society.


Breivik argued that authorities were trying to cast him as sick to cast doubt on his political views, and said during the trial that being sent to an insane asylum would be the worst thing that could happen to him.


The five-judge panel in the Oslo district court convicted Breivik, 33, of terrorism and premeditated murder and ordered him imprisoned for a period between 10 and 21 years, the maximum allowed under Norwegian law. Such sentences can be extended as long as an inmate is considered too dangerous to be released, and legal experts say Breivik will almost certainly spend the rest of his life in prison.
http://thechronicleherald.ca/world/129532-breivik-deemed-sane-sentenced-to-prison

[Winehole23]

Eight years later, Breivik's racism, ethnonationalism and anti-Islam bigotry are in the US political mainstream

[Winehole23]

p:cry:cryr Breivik

1338105379524399106

[Winehole23]

The stuff about belonging to a secret army of Christian anti-jihadists was just bluster, Breivik describes himself now as a trad neo-Nazi

For those who may not remember, the bomb he set off killed eight, then he shot 69 people (most of them teenagers) at a summer camp.



“According to Norwegian law he has a right now to go before a judge,” said Øystein Storrvik, Breivik’s defense lawyer. “He emphasizes that right. And his motivation for doing so is difficult for me to have an opinion on.”


Storrvik confirmed that Breivik will call the Swedish neo-Nazi Per Oberg to speak in his defense. He would not otherwise outline the basis of Breivik’s case, but made it clear that nobody should expect contrition.



“According to the law there is no obligation that you have to be remorseful,” said Storrvik. “So it is not a legal main point. Absolutely the legal problem is whether he is dangerous.”
https://www.eagletribune.com/region/grandstanding-fears-as-norwegian-mass-killer-seeks-parole/article_9238333c-3938-5492-99d7-965f633742e8.html

[SnakeBoy]

The stuff about belonging to a secret army of Christian anti-jihadists was just bluster, Breivik describes himself now as a trad neo-Nazi

For those who may not remember, the bomb he set off killed eight, then he shot 69 people (most of them teenagers) at a summer camp.


https://www.eagletribune.com/region/grandstanding-fears-as-norwegian-mass-killer-seeks-parole/article_9238333c-3938-5492-99d7-965f633742e8.html

I remember that. There wasn't a good guy with a gun there to protect the kids.