Better Small Forward: Larry Bird or Scottie Pippen?

[myhc]

My friend is arguing Scottie Pippen is better than Larry Bird. He was a better defender and his offensive skills are underrated and not that far off from Bird. You're starting a franchise today, who do you take and why?

[Sportstudi]

Bird, no question. He could score, rebound, pass (IMO best passing SF ever) and defend. Sure, Pippen was likely the better defender, but in all other categories I give the advantage to Bird.

[mavsfan1000]

Blasphemy. Bird is way better than Pippen. Jordan made everyone around him better. Look how Pippen looked with the Rockets and Blazers. :lol

[stretch]

Bird. No question.

[stretch]

if its an argument of who has a more complete all-around game, then there is a debate to be had. but better basketball player? no debate at all exists.

[stretch]

Bird, no question. He could score, rebound, pass (IMO best passing SF ever) and defend. Sure, Pippen was likely the better defender, but in all other categories I give the advantage to Bird.

bird couldnt defend worth a shit, not sure what you are talking about

and make no mistake, Pippen could most definitely hold his own in the rebounding and passing department as well. He was a very underrated passer. Not quite as flashy as Bird (which causes some people to overrate his passing at times), but still a very precise, smart passer. their assist averages are pretty close actually, and keep in mind, Pippen played most of his career in a slower paced era where there were less possessions per game on average. stats from the 80s and prior are generally more inflated due to this.

I'm not trying to say Pippen > Bird, but I do think Pippen definitely has a case for being a more well-rounded player. I also think people often overrate players like Bird and Magic, simply due to nostalgia. Both are great, and top 10 players of all time, but when people start to forget the fact that they had flaws, and start saying that they were great defenders, and other false claims, it gets ridiculous.

[JoeTait75]

bird couldnt defend worth a shit, not sure what you are talking about.

Exaggeration. Bird wasn't a great defender, not in Pippen's class, but he wasn't a turnstile.

[stretch]

Exaggeration. Bird wasn't a great defender, not in Pippen's class, but he wasn't a turnstile.

maybe for the 80s, when no one played a lick of defense, he was average. but in todays league? his defense would be on par with steve nash.

[Axe Murderer]

My friend is arguing Scottie Pippen is better than Larry Bird. He was a better defender and his offensive skills are underrated and not that far off from Bird. You're starting a franchise today, who do you take and why?

If I'm starting a franchise today, I'm taking Pippen. Players are more athletic than they were in the 80's and while Bird was a decent defender, he wouldn't be able to hold Carmelo, Durant, Kobe, Lebron, etc. today. Pippen on the other hand could do it all today.

The one edge Bird had over Pippen was that he was the #1 option. On the other hand, Bird had a lot of other complimentary pieces while Pippen didn't have much outside of Jordan

[Axe Murderer]

stretch

[cheguevara]

the black man by a mile

[ambchang]

I love Pippen, really do. Think he is one of the finest perimeter defensive player ever, and most definitely one of the best passing forwards.

That said, Bird was just better. Better shooter, better passer, better rebounder, it's the leadership skills and the vision that Bird has that really puts him above all other SFs in the history of the league.

[Blake]

bird couldnt defend worth a shit, not sure what you are talking about


lol someone disagrees with you

Z7Ixy8Uttq0

the steal right in front of Jordan's face at the 1:54 mark was pretty nice, imo

Bird blocking Pippen's shot and then blocking Jordan's follow at the 2:06 was pretty neat too.

[Sportstudi]

Exaggeration. Bird wasn't a great defender, not in Pippen's class, but he wasn't a turnstile.

This. Thanks for making my point clear.

I wasn't referring to today's defense. In the 80's Bird wasn't a defensive stalwart, but he wasn't a liability either. He could hold his man. Sure, not on Pippen's level though.

And yes, in today's league the story might be a different one concerning Bird. Here I agree with you, stretch.

[LkrFan]

My friend is arguing Scottie Pippen is better than Larry Bird. He was a better defender and his offensive skills are underrated and not that far off from Bird. You're starting a franchise today, who do you take and why?

Pippen was in MJ's massive shadow and does not get the props he deserved. Bird is a better shooter, but in my mind that's it. Pip - not MJ - took on the opposing best perimeter player more often than not. This allowed MJ to score at will. Pip was their PG too (not Hodges, Paxon, or Kerr).

People that saw him in Portland and H-Town saw him past his prime. Pip in his prime would shut down his man on the regular. Very underrated.

Ring smack time... 6>3. Before anyone comes up with some bullshit MJ argument consider this: Bird played on a HOF frontline with a HOF PG. Yet Pip still had more rings (also MJ HASN't won shit without him).

[dirk4mvp]

a certified retard like LkrFan would make that argument.

[pass1st]

It's like comparing Russel to Chamberlain. One is an excellent leader and a solid contributor, but the other is a better individual player. Bird wasn't half the defender or athlete Pippen was, but Pippen wasn't half the leader Bird was.

All in all, it would come to how you define better. A better individual player or a better franchise player & team leader. Bird if I needed a star, Pippen if I already had a star.

[Monostradamus]

lol someone disagrees with you

Z7Ixy8Uttq0

the steal right in front of Jordan's face at the 1:54 mark was pretty nice, imo

Bird blocking Pippen's shot and then blocking Jordan's follow at the 2:06 was pretty neat too.

He's got great hands and otherworldly anticipation, but I didn't see him actually bend his knees, get into a stance, and defend somebody in that entire video.

[Monostradamus]

If steals and blocks = great defense then Amare Stoudemire and Monta Ellis are two of the NBA's best defensive players right now.

[LkrFan]

a certified retard like LkrFan would make that argument.

What can Bird do that Pip can't numbnutz? There are two sides of the court you know...:wakeup

[LkrFan]

If steals and blocks = great defense then Amare Stoudemire and Monta Ellis are two of the NBA's best defensive players right now.

I know dirk4mvp is on the right in your avatar, but who is is boo on the left? :lol

[dirk4mvp]

:lmao LkrFan is not only a certified retard but he's reaching for anything he can right now. It's okay guy, just keep being the Laker fan on ST no one gives a shit about.

[Killakobe81]

if its an argument of who has a more complete all-around game, then there is a debate to be had. but better basketball player? no debate at all exists.

this. and despite of his lack of athleticism, Bird was a better rebounder. Definitely the better passer, shooter and clutch performer.


Pippen's edges were defensively and as a ball handler (dribble), as a 1 on 1 defender, and at applying ball pressure.

Pippen was not very clutch. most clutch plays by the 90's Bull teams were made by: MJ, Kerr, Paxson and even Kukoc (in an infamous playoff spot).

Pippen was great, but most of his clutch plays were made on defense which is important, but to me puts him behind Larry ...who btw has one of the most famous clutch defensive plays of all time ...

[jacobdrj]

The subject of Pippen comes up quite often between me and my good friend who was a Bulls fan in the 90's.

To this day, he keeps talking about how OVERRATED Pippen is. That when watching the last 3 championships, in particular, MJ was dragging Pippen by the wag of his tongue to get them to the championships...

A very good player. Sure. All star. Sure. Perfect fit for MJ, sure. Not a top 50 all time player.

[dirk4mvp]

:cry yeah but Pippen has 3 more rings :cry

[LkrFan]

:lmao LkrFan is not only a certified retard but he's reaching for anything he can right now. It's okay guy, just keep being the Laker fan on ST no one gives a shit about.

:lol but you keep trying to clown so I guess one person on ST gives a shit about me. :downspin:

[stretch]

lol someone disagrees with you

Z7Ixy8Uttq0

the steal right in front of Jordan's face at the 1:54 mark was pretty nice, imo

Bird blocking Pippen's shot and then blocking Jordan's follow at the 2:06 was pretty neat too.

neat, he could get steals and blocks during an era of undisciplined shooting and passing.

could he stay in front of his man consistently though? I strongly doubt it.

[Killakobe81]

Pippen was in MJ's massive shadow and does not get the props he deserved. Bird is a better shooter, but in my mind that's it. Pip - not MJ - took on the opposing best perimeter player more often than not. This allowed MJ to score at will. Pip was their PG too (not Hodges, Paxon, or Kerr).

People that saw him in Portland and H-Town saw him past his prime. Pip in his prime would shut down his man on the regular. Very underrated.

Ring smack time... 6>3. Before anyone comes up with some bullshit MJ argument consider this: Bird played on a HOF frontline with a HOF PG. Yet Pip still had more rings (also MJ HASN't won shit without him).

agreed that some of Pip's game was in MJ's shadow and as much love as MJ gets defensively ...Pippen was the better defender and took on those challenges so MJ could be the dominant scorer.

BUT Bird is STILL a better player and only people that did not see Bird in his prime could make this case or are biased against Bird. As great as a defender as pippen was when Bird was on... pippen wouldnt of been able to stop him without fouling... Bird could not stop pippen either but Pip was not a scorer in that class ...

[dirk4mvp]

pointing out your certified retardation doesn't mean anyone gives a shit about you.

[LkrFan]

:cry yeah but Pippen has 3 more rings :cry

Yep, you give a shit about me alright...you're a certified pre-owned faggot just like I thought. :lol

[dirk4mvp]

Terrible. You're hurting ST every time you decide to hit reply.

[LkrFan]

agreed that some of Pi's game was in MJ's shadow and as much love as MJ gets defensively ...Pippen was the better defender and took on those challenges so MJ could be the dominant scorer.

BUT Bird is STILL a better player and only people that did not see Bird in his prime could make this case or are biased against Bird. As great as a defender as pippen was when Bird was on... pippen wouldnt of been able to stop him without fouling... Bird could not stop pippen either but Pip was not a scorer in that class ...

Agreed, but... MJ goes to play baseball and is replaced by a SG scrub. Bulls win like 57 games. Who was their leader? Pip of course.

Bird was a great player and I hated him as a Laker fan, but I still respected his game. However, if he lost even one of his two HOF front court teammates I highly doubt the Celtics have the same success without Parish or McHale that the Bulls had without MJ. This speaks volumes in Pip's favor tbh.

[Blake]

neat, he could get steals and blocks during an era of undisciplined shooting and passing.

right, he played defense.

the "yeah but he played in this era" argument is always a win. :tu


could he stay in front of his man consistently though? I strongly doubt it.

I saw him play enough to say yes but if someone has a poster of Dominique teabagging him, it wouldn't shock me.

Definitely would never say "Bird couldn't defend worth a shit" though....That's just ignorant.

[Monostradamus]

right, he played defense.

true. just not all that well.

[stretch]

amare stoudemire = great defender

gotcha :tu

[LnGrrrR]

I don't think anyone is arguing that Bird is a lockdown defender.

I think people are arguing that Bird wasn't so bad on defense that it doesn't make up for all the other areas where Bird > Pippen.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Bird was like Manu in that he did so many little things to help his team win, a lot of which doesn't show up in the boxscore. He was a flat-out winner, plain and simple, 1st option on offense, team leader. Pippen was good, bordering on great, but he wasn't in Bird's league.

Only a fool would choose Pippen over Bird.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Well, technically, he was in Bird's league, if we're talking about the NBA.

[Blake]

true. just not all that well.

just well enough to win some MVPs.

[Blake]

gotcha :tu

no you don't. :td

[stretch]

just well enough to win some MVPs.

so did Steve Nash.

Steve Nash = defensive stalwort, according to blake

[Blake]

Amare Stoudemire = Larry Bird, according to stretch

[stretch]

Amare Stoudemire = Larry Bird, according to stretch

:tu

:cry great fuckin comparison :cry

[Blake]

agreed. superb choice to be the Bird heir apparent

[Booharv]

Exaggeration. Bird wasn't a great defender, not in Pippen's class, but he wasn't a turnstile.

Agreed. His defense has always been underrated. Most books on basketball contain a section or passage to help dispel this myth that he was some kind of complete scrub on that end of the floor. No one pays attention.

[JoeTait75]

When I think of players who don't play defense I think of guys who don't even try on that end- Mo Williams, for example. Bird didn't have the sheer athleticism to be a great man-on-man defender but he was certainly out there trying. He also had great anticipation which helped him get steals.

I also think there's a tendency to look at scoring totals from the '80s and come to the conclusion that the teams and players from that era didn't play any defense. Teams just played at a different pace.

[JoeTait75]

lol isn't that the same logic Hollinger and Bill Simmons used when arguing that the SSOL Suns weren't bad on defense?


You tell me. I don't crib from Hollinger or Simmons.

I just find it hard to believe that 23 out of 23 NBA teams during the '80s were terrible defensively.

Also, having watched the mid-90s Cavaliers I'm pretty sure that low PPG allowed does not necessarily = good defense. Sometimes you just take the air out of the ball. I'm assuming it works the other way as well.