Resuming CBA talks

[GB20]

http://i39.tinypic.com/2u55q1w.gif

:lol

[DesignatedT]

http://i39.tinypic.com/2u55q1w.gif

:lol

[GB20]

KBergCBS Ken Berger
Growing optimism in the agent and front-office community that a deal will get done. One person briefed on talks "incredibly optimistic."

[DPG21920]

That gif says it all tbh

[ElNono]

http://i39.tinypic.com/2u55q1w.gif

:rollin

[ElNono]

this guy sound like KBP:lol

KBP actually made sense once or twice... hasn't happened yet with that guy

[silverblk mystix]

Is anyone else but me hoping that this whole season is cancelled....?

[DesignatedT]

Is anyone else but me hoping that this whole season is cancelled....?

no

[ElNono]

I'm not that concerned about the season, what I want is things to move forward. If they can't get to a deal tonight, I want them to keep on negotiating, or I want the union to ge going on the decertification. I don't want another ultimatum for 'next monday' and back to this shit again.

[TIMMYtoZO]

no

:lol
Why do you want a season? It isn't like the Spurs are contending anymore.

[DesignatedT]

:lol
Why do you want a season? It isn't like the Spurs are contending anymore.

To watch the Heatles, duh.

[baseline bum]

Is anyone else but me hoping that this whole season is cancelled....?

No; I want the Spurs to have a decent draft pick for 2012 so they can have something to rebuild on. Drafting 29 would be a disaster. Well, that and wanting to watch Tim, Tony, and Manu for another season even if the price to pay is seeing Dick and Bonner out there looking like morons.

[Sean Cagney]

:lol
Why do you want a season? It isn't like the Spurs are contending anymore.

So every fan who's team is not a top 5 team should want no season? It is actually fun to watch good games and the playoffs you know? I guess when the Heat were not contending you did not want a season at all right? I mean that would make that about how many seasons since you started watching? :lol:lol

[Spursfan092120]

:lol
Why do you want a season? It isn't like the Spurs are contending anymore.

Because there are some people out there who aren't bandwagon fans..and actually enjoy watching the game.

[Nathan89]

any minute now... any minute...:wakeup

[ElNono]

My sources tell me Holt sold a tractor to Billy Hunter... nothing on the NBA front though

[Dex]

This is the song never ends....yes, it goes on and on, my friends...

[Giuseppe]

I wonder what Addy is doing right now, Dex?

tee, hee.

[DesignatedT]

h

[ElNono]

Page 69... somebody is getting fucked...

[DesignatedT]

meeting is over.

[Ditty]

no deal per woj

[Ditty]

hold on just kidding lol

[DesignatedT]

2 separate pressers doesn't look good. I think they are meeting again tomorrow.

[DesignatedT]

Yup. Back at it at Noon tomorrow.

[timtonymanu]

If they're gonna meet again tomorrow, let's just assume nothing's gonna change tomorrow either. You know it's coming.

[DesignatedT]

Pretty much although I feel that if no progress was really being made then Stern would have "pulled" his offer like he said he was going to.

[baseline bum]

Pretty much although I feel that if no progress was really being made then Stern would have "pulled" his offer like he said he was going to.

Now you have something to look forward to tomorrow.

[ElNono]

:sleep

[Dex]

More of the same semantics. Don't even know why we bother following this stuff anymore. When and if a deal gets done, it will hit all the major news outlets, and anything before that is just bordering between frustration and masochism.

[Nathan89]

Pretty much although I feel that if no progress was really being made then Stern would have "pulled" his offer like he said he was going to.

I agree with this.

They're not going to be overly exited about the progress because it would mess up their negotiating power. In away it would be showing their cards. I think they must be pretty far away on a lot of issues because if they were really close they wouldn't be hesitant to reveal progress. Nonetheless I feel like they want to get a deal done and will get one done within the next week.

[spurs10]

What I read into this is that there will be no deal, because the NBA's main desire is to bust the union. They would like to see them decertify and break this union that they hate. They are probably shocked they didn't decertify in the summer. I think Stern and the NBA, more than anything, want Billy Hunter and Kessler out of the picture. The NBA doesn't want a deal and there won't be one. I can't believe I didn't see this before. We are witnessing a coup against a once powerful union.....at any expernse.

[Mr. Body]

Players just need to dissolve the league and start a new one. Anything so long as that fucker David Stern isn't involved.

[I. Hustle]

Players just need to dissolve the league and start a new one. Anything so long as that fucker David Stern isn't involved.

Yeah because they have great business sense. If these successful billionaires, who actually worked for their money (for the most part) and built themselves up from nothing, made a dumbass mistake and gave the players too much then these guys who spend all their money on tatts and cars will jack up thier league within the first couple of months.

[Giuseppe]

The union wants to take the deal against their better judgment. It's a tragic deal, that will totally wipe out with the stroke of a pen a quarter century of achievement/advancement. This union has gone to seed--fattened up on the sacrifice and labors of the ones who have gone afore them...the ones who looked ahead further than that every two week check.

[hater]

again, owners want their bailout. They are the ones who overvalued these players, they are the ones who made the contract offers, they are the ones who paid Dick Jefferson 12 million.

boohoo, you cannot afford your luxury yatch and keep your team at the same time. So you want the stupid negros to give you some of their money.

I say let these rich white motherfuckers crash and burn. Yeah, they will take a dozen or so teams with them, but the NBA will be slimmer and better a few years down the road.

[yavozerb]

The union wants to take the deal against their better judgment. It's a tragic deal, that will totally wipe out with the stroke of a pen a quarter century of achievement/advancement. This union has gone to seed--fattened up on the sacrifice and labors of the ones who have gone afore them...the ones who looked ahead further than that every two week check.

Like michael jordan...He giveth and he taketh

[vy65]

Really? I guess they should operate just like a normal company and not under the protection of government immune to anti-trust protection. Also, they aren't losing money, the league overall is healthy and well. Just like anything, if there are a few bad parts, you scrap those parts and let the prosperous ones survive. You certainly don't ask the employees to foot the entire damn bill and GUARANTEE you a profit.

I think this is wrong.

The anti-trust exemption doesn't require the owners to abstain from taking measures to improve their bottom line. If anything, it probably protects the owners (and players) in their attempts to get the most out of the other side.

For starters, the NBA's anti-trust exemption isn't a protection for the owner's per se. Rather, it protects collective bargaining agreements between the union and the league from anti-trust liability. The exemption under the Clayton Act was originally intended to protect unions as they demanded better working conditions (hours, wages, etc...) from the threat of suits claiming such demands restrained trade. While it's true the exemption has been broadened to protect management, it is not true to claim the NBA's exemption is a one-sided immunity for management alone.

Also, the league opened up its books and the union has agreed that there are losses:


The league’s assertions that they are losing upwards of $300 million per season have been met with skepticism from the players association and fans alike. After being given the opportunity to examine the league’s books, the union admitted the league was losing money, but said the losses were closer to $100 million than $300 million.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/33175/teams-value-rises-as-owners-split-grows

Yah, it's not the 300m they originally claimed, but a 100m loss is still a loss.

The dispute is about coming up with ways for teams to be more profitable. If a business is losing money, one of the ways you can turn things around is by cutting down on your expenses. Player salaries are obviously one of the largest expenses teams incur. Cutting down on the % players take is just teams reducing their expenses.

You're right that it's smart business to scrap bad parts. But you shouldn't scrap those parts if they can make you money via a tweak. This is all about helping the owners bottom line. They're trying to milk as much out of the players as possible -- which is no different than what happened when the recession hit. People saw their salaries drop as business tried to save themselves. This is not a case of owners asking the players to foot the full bill - it's about trying to turn some businesses around.


If they were all losing money and it was such a bad proposition, bottom level franchises wouldn't be selling for all time highs. Are these just the dumbest millionaires in the world? Also, if this were the real world, idiots who make dumb decisions that cost themselves money would be fired, but that isn't the case here either.

There's a difference between appreciation and making money. You're absolutely right to say that the value of franchises has increased over the past 2-3 decades. The appreciation is only realized when the teams are sold. Those gains don't translate to a year-by-year loss some franchises are suffering. And, why isn't it the right of the owners to demand a model that both lets them turn a yearly profit and also realize a gain when they flip their team?

[yavozerb]

I think this is wrong.

The anti-trust exemption doesn't require the owners to abstain from taking measures to improve their bottom line. If anything, it probably protects the owners (and players) in their attempts to get the most out of the other side.

For starters, the NBA's anti-trust exemption isn't a protection for the owner's per se. Rather, it protects collective bargaining agreements between the union and the league from anti-trust liability. The exemption under the Clayton Act was originally intended to protect unions as they demanded better working conditions (hours, wages, etc...) from the threat of suits claiming such demands restrained trade. While it's true the exemption has been broadened to protect management, it is not true to claim the NBA's exemption is a one-sided immunity for management alone.

Also, the league opened up its books and the union has agreed that there are losses:



http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/33175/teams-value-rises-as-owners-split-grows

Yah, it's not the 300m they originally claimed, but a 100m loss is still a loss.

The dispute is about coming up with ways for teams to be more profitable. If a business is losing money, one of the ways you can turn things around is by cutting down on your expenses. Player salaries are obviously one of the largest expenses teams incur. Cutting down on the % players take is just teams reducing their expenses.

You're right that it's smart business to scrap bad parts. But you shouldn't scrap those parts if they can make you money via a tweak. This is all about helping the owners bottom line. They're trying to milk as much out of the players as possible -- which is no different than what happened when the recession hit. People saw their salaries drop as business tried to save themselves. This is not a case of owners asking the players to foot the full bill - it's about trying to turn some businesses around.



There's a difference between appreciation and making money. You're absolutely right to say that the value of franchises has increased over the past 2-3 decades. The appreciation is only realized when the teams are sold. Those gains don't translate to a year-by-year loss some franchises are suffering. And, why isn't it the right of the owners to demand a model that both lets them turn a yearly profit and also realize a gain when they flip their team?

Nice VY...good take

[mavsfan1000]

Jordan is a beast. Altering the results of 2 CBA deals. :)

[ElNono]

I think this is wrong.

The anti-trust exemption doesn't require the owners to abstain from taking measures to improve their bottom line. If anything, it probably protects the owners (and players) in their attempts to get the most out of the other side.

For starters, the NBA's anti-trust exemption isn't a protection for the owner's per se. Rather, it protects collective bargaining agreements between the union and the league from anti-trust liability. The exemption under the Clayton Act was originally intended to protect unions as they demanded better working conditions (hours, wages, etc...) from the threat of suits claiming such demands restrained trade. While it's true the exemption has been broadened to protect management, it is not true to claim the NBA's exemption is a one-sided immunity for management alone.

Also, the league opened up its books and the union has agreed that there are losses:



http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/33175/teams-value-rises-as-owners-split-grows

Yah, it's not the 300m they originally claimed, but a 100m loss is still a loss.

The dispute is about coming up with ways for teams to be more profitable. If a business is losing money, one of the ways you can turn things around is by cutting down on your expenses. Player salaries are obviously one of the largest expenses teams incur. Cutting down on the % players take is just teams reducing their expenses.

You're right that it's smart business to scrap bad parts. But you shouldn't scrap those parts if they can make you money via a tweak. This is all about helping the owners bottom line. They're trying to milk as much out of the players as possible -- which is no different than what happened when the recession hit. People saw their salaries drop as business tried to save themselves. This is not a case of owners asking the players to foot the full bill - it's about trying to turn some businesses around.

There's a difference between appreciation and making money. You're absolutely right to say that the value of franchises has increased over the past 2-3 decades. The appreciation is only realized when the teams are sold. Those gains don't translate to a year-by-year loss some franchises are suffering. And, why isn't it the right of the owners to demand a model that both lets them turn a yearly profit and also realize a gain when they flip their team?

Good post. I would like to point out though that the players walked into these negotiations with an offer that covered half of the losses as described by the NBA ($150m salary reduction through the BRI going from 57% to 53%), and concessions on the system to allow owners to get out of costly mistakes by reducing contract lengths.

And they went in with that offer fully aware that they would need to come down even more, as it always happens in negotiations when you have to find a middle ground. I think they've been more than reasonable and accommodating to the owner's perceived problems.

One other thing to point out is that while some teams have lost money, the league overall has seen it's income grow constantly over the last few years. So it's not the system that precluding the league from growing, but whatever redistributive system in place is simply not good enough. Not so sure that isn't strictly an owner's problem.

[vy65]

Good post. I would like to point out though that the players walked into these negotiations with an offer that covered half of the losses as described by the NBA ($150m salary reduction through the BRI going from 57% to 53%), and concessions on the system to allow owners to get out of costly mistakes by reducing contract lengths.

And they went in with that offer fully aware that they would need to come down even more, as it always happens in negotiations when you have to find a middle ground. I think they've been more than reasonable and accommodating to the owner's perceived problems.

Just saw this - which seems to support your point:


For a period during these NBA collective bargaining talks, the players built a lot of strong rhetoric around the idea of needing 53 percent of basketball related income.

That was about five weeks ago.

Since then, there have been mediators, ultimatums, deadlines and more ... and nonetheless, we are back in the throes of the conversation the negotiators were in before the players found religion at 53 percent.

We are back at 50/50.

Sources inside these talks have long insisted that both sides know the final agreement will be at 50/50. Any suggestion otherwise is rhetoric.

Fifty percent is as high as David Stern can convince the owners to go, and it's just enough to get the players to agree. It's also a number both sides have suggested to each other for weeks, if not months. It makes sense.

Last weekend, the NBA sent the union a letter swearing that at the stroke of 5 p.m. ET Wednesday, the owners' offer would revert to 47 percent and a hard cap. To the extent that was sincere, it was unlikely to be permanent. And, of course, the NBA has entirely abandoned that promise, even on a day when, in Stern's words, "Nothing was worked out."

Makes you wonder how serious that threat ever was.

"It was our understanding going in," the commissioner said by way of explanation, "that at the end of the negotiating session, whether it ends today or it ends tomorrow, that's when our offer reverts [to 47 percent]."

The NBA's commitment to 47, however, is much like the players' commitment to 53. Temporary, political, a delusion. Even if there is no deal Thursday or Friday, there will be more bargaining so long as a shortened season is possible. The two sides are too close to a deal, and a lost season is too costly. It makes no sense to mess things up like that at this point.

And despite yet another deflated set of news conferences, there's plenty of reason for hope, which Stern knows.

As he left the news conference early Thursday morning, after 12 hours of bargaining, Stern stopped in the crowded hallway to converse with union economist Kevin Murphy, who says he is trying to arrange his schedule to be here for the next session to start at noon.

Stern encouraged Murphy to show up, saying, "It will be a good day to be here."

It was late. Stern was tired. The comment was vague. It didn't sound like a real promise of a deal. But it certainly didn't sound like a guy preparing to blow apart the talks with a dramatically lower offer, either.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/33189/count-on-5050-despite-talk

[vy65]

Also, the NBA's anti-trust exemption is only a partial one geared more towards protecting its TV contracts than anything else. The government protects the pooling aspect of the league's ESPN, ABC, etc... contracts.

I don't see why this kind of protection prevents the owner's from altering league economics to make their franchises more profitable. In other words, why does anti-trust protection of TV contracts preclude owner's from aggressively negotiating with players regarding salary and other system issues?

[ElNono]

Also, the NBA's anti-trust exemption is geared more towards protecting its TV contracts than anything else. The government protects the pooling aspect of the league's ESPN, ABC, etc... contracts.

I don't see why this kind of protection prevents the owner's from altering league economics to make their franchises more profitable. In other words, why does anti-trust protection of TV contracts preclude owner's from aggressively negotiating with players regarding salary and other system issues?

While it might be geared towards that, things like the Draft where teams basically collude to distribute talent is entirely based on the premise of an anti-trust exemption existing.

That's why I don't think you can just say the NBA franchises operate just like any other free-market business.

That said, there's nothing preventing the owners from negotiating as they see fit. The only risk they run into is that if the union decides to dissolve, they effectively would lose said anti-trust protection, and that's where it can get risky for the owners.

That's why I personally would like a deal to be done ASAP, or if they do not reach an agreement, I'd like the union to get it's gears moving towards dissolving. The time for waiting up for cooler heads to prevail has passed a long time ago.

[Birn]

again, owners want their bailout. They are the ones who overvalued these players, they are the ones who made the contract offers, they are the ones who paid Dick Jefferson 12 million.

boohoo, you cannot afford your luxury yatch and keep your team at the same time. So you want the stupid negros to give you some of their money.

I say let these rich white motherfuckers crash and burn. Yeah, they will take a dozen or so teams with them, but the NBA will be slimmer and better a few years down the road.

Explain how this is a "bailout" for the owners? This is THEIR league and THEIR teams and as such they own all expenses and revenues generated. The players are not forced to accept anything. They're free to leave and form their own league if they think they can get more. That's the way it works in America my friend. NBA players will continue to be the highest paid players in all modern sports. Not exactly sure what the problem is here.

[vy65]

While it might be geared towards that, things like the Draft where teams basically collude to distribute talent is entirely based on the premise of an anti-trust exemption existing.

That's why I don't think you can just say the NBA franchises operate just like any other free-market business.

I think this is more or less right. Although I'm not quite sure how the distribution of talent aspect of the draft is anti-competitive -- it could be, but I just don't see it.

But you're right to say that the NBA doesn't operate like an open-market business. That's not just because of pro-ownership aspects to the CBA. Pro-player aspects to the CBA - like guaranteed contracts - are just as anti-competitive as pro-ownership aspects such as caps on max contracts.

Another interesting thing to note is how the rookie scale is both pro-owner and pro-player. It's pro-owner in cases like Derrick Rose's or Manu Ginobili's rookie contracts -- it's hard to see those as anything but highway robbery for the owner. But on the other hand, Memphis got locked into Hasheem Thabeet's rookie contract (which he probably didn't earn) and the Wiz got locked into paying Kwame Brown's shitastic rookie contract.

The point of all this -- which I don't think you necessarily disagree with -- is the fact that the anti-trust exemptions (which benefit both player and owner and which place NBA franchises outside the realm of "normal" business) don't preclude the owners from running their businesses as profitably as possible. That is to say that just because the owners benefit from the anti-trust exemption, they are still entitled to maximize the most they can from their adversarial position viz. the players.


That said, there's nothing preventing the owners from negotiating as they see fit. The only risk they run into is that if the union decides to dissolve, they effectively would lose said anti-trust protection, and that's where it can get risky for the owners.

That's why I personally would like a deal to be done ASAP, or if they do not reach an agreement, I'd like the union to get it's gears moving towards dissolving. The time for waiting up for cooler heads to prevail has passed a long time ago.

Well put.

[baseline bum]

Another interesting thing to note is how the rookie scale is both pro-owner and pro-player. It's pro-owner in cases like Derrick Rose's or Manu Ginobili's rookie contracts -- it's hard to see those as anything but highway robbery for the owner. But on the other hand, Memphis got locked into Hasheem Thabeet's rookie contract (which he probably didn't earn) and the Wiz got locked into paying Kwame Brown's shitastic rookie contract.


I'd see your point more if the rookie scale deals were guaranteed for the full 4 years they can bind a draft pick, but the 2005 CBA changed the contract to two years guaranteed followed by two years of team options. Thabeet is the only player I can think of in recent memory who was picked top 5 and was so bad his team would want to cut their losses after only one season. I don't think it's a huge gamble when your worst case is paying less than MLE for one extra season if a guy shows himself to be a complete bust his rookie year.

[vy65]

I'd see your point more if the rookie scale deals were guaranteed for the full 4 years they can bind a draft pick, but the 2005 CBA changed the contract to two years guaranteed followed by two years of team options. Thabeet is the only player I can think of in recent memory who was picked top 5 and was so bad his team would want to cut their losses after only one season. I don't think it's a huge gamble when your worst case is paying less than MLE for one extra season if a guy shows himself to be a complete bust his rookie year.

I'm not the best judge of NBA talent - but what about Adam Morrison and Greg Oden?

[Bruno]

Owners have won the war. Players are taking a 12.3% paycut an the system will be more owner friendly than the previous one.

Now, the question that will never be answered is if it was unavoidable or if players would have done better y being more aggressive (desertification and threat of creating a new league).

I'm also quite pessimistic about Spurs' future given Holt attitude during the negotiations. With Duncan being done, Spurs were in a awfully difficult spot and I can easily see now some agents pushing for their players not to go to SA. It's going to get ugly.

[baseline bum]

I'm not the best judge of NBA talent - but what about Adam Morrison and Greg Oden?

Both of those guys had team options picked up by the teams that drafted them. Morrison even had his fourth year option picked up by the Lakers (they must have figured the expiring would be useful for trade value). I forgot about Tskitishvili though; he probably wouldn't have gotten a second year from the team that picked him if he could have been dumped.

[baseline bum]

Owners have won the war. Players are taking a 12.3% paycut an the system will be more owner friendly than the previous one.

Now, the question that will never be answered is if it was unavoidable or if players would have done better y being more aggressive (desertification and threat of creating a new league).

I'm also quite pessimistic about Spurs' future given Holt attitude during the negotiations. With Duncan being done, Spurs were in a awfully difficult spot and I can easily see now some agents pushing for their players not to go to SA. It's going to get ugly.

I think it's an empty threat. Mid-level Free agents are going to steer clear of 1/6th of the league in San Antonio, Phoenix, Cleveland, Charlotte, and Portland? (obviously high-end free agents will avoid them because of market size) Every one of their owners has been towing a line as hard as Holt's. The Spurs have never been able to build through free agency. They couldn't do it with a max salary slot and a young core coming off a championship; they surely won't do it as a declining team.

[Bruno]

I think it's an empty threat. Mid-level Free agents are going to steer clear of 1/6th of the league in San Antonio, Phoenix, Cleveland, Charlotte, and Portland? (obviously high-end free agents will avoid them because of market size) Every one of their owners has been towing a line as hard as Holt's. The Spurs have never been able to build through free agency. They couldn't do it with a max salary slot and a young core coming off a championship; they surely won't do it as a declining team.

What you can fear is that best MLE players go to franchise with a player friendly owner and the rest of MLE players goes to teams like Spurs. Spurs have been able to attract coveted players like Finley and Dice. It will be harder to do so with Holt's attitude during this lockout.

I think Holt will be one of the most hated owners by agents alongside Jordan and Paul Allen. Holt saying that players haven't suffered enough surely won't be forgotten.

[ChumpDumper]

What you can fear is that best MLE players go to franchise with a player friendly owner and the rest of MLE players goes to teams like Spurs. Spurs have been able to attract coveted players like Finley and Dice. It will be harder to do so with Holt's attitude during this lockout.

I think Holt will be one of the most hated owners by agents alongside Jordan and Paul Allen. Holt saying that players haven't suffered enough surely won't be forgotten.Eh, Holt has been a driving force behind most of the player "unfriendly" CBA issues since he became an owner. I don't doubt that has meant consequences in the past for the Spurs. This just means more of the same to me.

[baseline bum]

What you can fear is that best MLE players go to franchise with a player friendly owner and the rest of MLE players goes to teams like Spurs. Spurs have been able to attract coveted players like Finley and Dice. It will be harder to do so with Holt's attitude during this lockout.

I think Holt will be one of the most hated owners by agents alongside Jordan and Paul Allen. Holt saying that players haven't suffered enough surely won't be forgotten.

If the Spurs land another Tim Duncan, draft good talent around him, and start competing for titles again, I have no doubt they'll replicate their past mid-level signings like Horry, Barry, Finley, and McDyess.

[Mr. Body]

Holt has shown himself to be a jack-hole. It'll be harder cheering for his team after this.

[Bruno]

Eh, Holt has been a driving force behind most of the player "unfriendly" CBA issues since he became an owner. I don't doubt that has meant consequences in the past for the Spurs. This just means more of the same to me.

Eh, Holt wasn't that involved in the previous lockout. And if you add things like Spurs low-balling their first round picks, I'm sure Spurs don't have the bast reputation among some agents.

In the past, Spurs have been able to build the team thought he draft (Duncan, Ginoibli and Parker). Pop was also a huge reason why players come to SA (remember Finley) and he won't be here forever. If in the future, Spurs need to improve their team through FA, they will have an even harder time to do so.

[ChumpDumper]

Eh, Holt wasn't that involved in the previous lockout. And if you add things like Spurs low-balling their first round picks, I'm sure Spurs don't have the bast reputation among some agents.

In the past, Spurs have been able to build the team thought he draft (Duncan, Ginoibli and Parker). Pop was also a huge reason why players come to SA (remember Finley) and he won't be here forever. If in the future, Spurs need to improve their team through FA, they will have an even harder time to do so.I just don't see how this makes it any worse. He already had a rep.

[Bruno]

I just don't see how this makes it any worse. He already had a rep.

From bad to worse.

[ChumpDumper]

From bad to worse.It's a matter of opinion. If they really don't like it that much, they shouldn't take the deal.

[Bruno]

It's a matter of opinion. If they really don't like it that much, they shouldn't take the deal.

Eh, agents don't vote.

[ChumpDumper]

Eh, agents don't vote.As much influence as they have in a player's decision to sign with a team.

[Bruno]

As much influence as they have in a player's decision to sign with a team.

Well, not really.

[ChumpDumper]

Well, not really.Why not?

[DesignatedT]

It's a business. People suggesting that people are going to take this personally for years to come are just wrong. This happens everywhere in the work world.

[Bruno]

Why not?

It's quite obvious.

First, asking a player to turn down a CBA offer and stay unemployed is way more difficult than saying to a player he should rather sign with this franchise because the owner is better.

Second, votes are kept secret. A player can disobey to his agent by voting for a CBA and the agent won't even know it.

[ChumpDumper]

It's quite obvious.

First, asking a player to turn down a CBA offer and stay unemployed is way more difficult than saying to a player he should rather sign with this franchise because the owner is better

Second, votes are kept secret. A player can disobey to his agent by voting for a CBA and the agent won't even know it.So they don't get to vote on where the player signs either.

OK.

[Bruno]

So they don't get to vote on where the player signs either.

OK.

What you're saying makes no sense.

[ChumpDumper]

What you're saying makes no sense.
It's quite obvious.

[Bruno]

It's quite obvious.

Yep, you got it.
It's time for you to regroup and comes back with a stronger argument.

[ChumpDumper]

Yep, you got it.
It's time for you to regroup and comes back with a stronger argument.Not at all. It's quite obviously complete.

[Bruno]

Not at all. It's quite obviously complete.

Well, not really.

[ChumpDumper]

Well, not really.Again, a matter of opinion.

[Bruno]

Again, a matter of opinion.

It's quite obvious.

[Dex]

http://images.dailydawdle.com/cats-watching-tennis.gif

[ChumpDumper]

It's quite obvious.That is something upon which we agree.

[vy65]

Apparently Dave Checketts is reporting a deal has been agreed to by Stern and Hunter.

[vy65]

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/216468/Former_President_Of_Knicks_Jazz_Says_Deal_Reached_ Between_Owners_Players

[vy65]

lol and its being denied: http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/216469/No_Agreement_Reached_But_On_Route_To_Getting_It_Do ne

[TimmehC]

:lol false rumors
:lol checketts
:lol nba fans
:lol italy

[Bruno]

Players and owners are so close that is would be more surprising to see them not reaching a deal than reaching one. Maybe they will need one more day to finalizing the agreement but there are reasons to be optimistic the NBA will be back for Christmas.

[Dex]

netw3rk netw3rk
Lockout Solution: teams losing money can designate one player to marry Kim Kardashian for up to 40 days.
1 minute ago

netw3rk netw3rk
When Mikhail Prokhorov can't attend meetings he sends three Latvian models & a tiny Giraffe who is authorized to vote on his behalf.
3 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

netw3rk netw3rk
Lockout Update: James Dolan reports progress unlocking 3 star scores in Angry Birds.
11 minutes ago

[DesignatedT]

http://images.dailydawdle.com/cats-watching-tennis.gif

:lol

[DPG21920]

FWIW, David Aldridge said they aren't really close to a deal. 4 people in the room told him that they were no close than last night. Said the two biggest issues were the MLE and Sign & Trades for tax paying teams. Haven't made all that much progress overall in his opinion.

[timtonymanu]

Any updates on anything? Any separate press conferences about to happen where they say today wasn't the day to get a deal done?

[DPG21920]

Things are very quiet. No news. Won't be until there is something significant to report one way or the other.

[timtonymanu]

If my calculations are right, they've been meeting for about 9 hours now?

[baseline bum]

FWIW, David Aldridge said they aren't really close to a deal. 4 people in the room told him that they were no close than last night. Said the two biggest issues were the MLE and Sign & Trades for tax paying teams. Haven't made all that much progress overall in his opinion.

Wow, if that's really it than I can't imagine we won't have a season soon. :toast

[ElNono]

IMO, there's not going to be a deal. They're still discussing the exact same shit that broke the talks last time.

[DesignatedT]

tj_ford TJ Ford
Is the lockout over yet!!!!!!
1 hour ago Favorite Retweet Reply
in reply to ↑


Roger Mason Jr
@tj_ford no bro. Still a ways away..

[callo1]

If it comes down to large markets getting their way when it comes to revenue sharing, I hope the other owners don't budge and the season it shut down.

I want to see some of these "genius" GMs and coaches have their flaws exposed by parity. Too damn bad Philip had to leave, but like usual, he knew another team that he didn't build was no longer a contender, so he bailed.

[DPG21920]

I agree with, Nono. I doubt there will be an agreement. I know people's hopes are up because they are meeting for long hours but that doesn't change the fact the owners are holding a hard line IMO. Unless they were willing to significantly move on most of the system issues, which by all accounts seems unlikely, there will be no deal.

I know it seems logical to get a deal done, but it's not about that IMO.

[Dex]

http://ken-berger.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/11838893/33225313



Progress on mid-level, but other hurdles emerge

NEW YORK -- Negotiators for the league and players' association made modest progress on the use of the mid-level exception for luxury tax-paying teams Thursday, but other guidelines governing exceptions and the tax level emerged as a new sticking point, three people briefed on the labor talks told CBSSports.com.

One of the people said league negotiators signaled a willingness to raise the so-called "mini mid-level" to three years starting at $3 million for teams above the luxury-tax level, to be available every other year. The previous offer was a two-year deal starting at $2.5 million, available every other year to tax teams. There was no indication union negotiators were ready to agree to this slight improvement in the owners' proposal, as it would reduce the mid-level exception for tax teams from last year's five-year, $37 million total to three years and $9 million for teams above the tax line.

Also Thursday, a new hurdle emerged in the discussion over when teams would face the new restrictions owners are proposing for teams above the luxury tax threshold. Two of the people briefed on the talks said owners were pushing for teams under the tax at the time of the transaction to be restricted from using the full mid-level -- four-year deals starting at $5 million -- if the signing put the team over the tax. In that case, the team would be restricted to use of the mini mid-level. Union negotiators want the new restrictions to be based on where a team's payroll sits in relation to the tax prior to the use of the exception -- not where it stands afterward.

After a 12-hour session Wednesday produced minimal progress, the two sides pushed past the eight-hour mark Thursday with the threat looming that league negotiators would pull their existing offer off the table and replace it with a worse one. The new offer, originally scheduled to be furnished to the players at 5 p.m. Wednesday but delayed due to the ongoing talks, would feature a 53-47 economic split in favor of the owners and also would include a hard team salary cap and rollbacks of existing contracts. The two sides currently are negotiating off a league proposal that would give the players a 50 percent share of revenue and maintain a soft-cap system -- albeit with a vastly more onerous luxury tax system, more restrictions on exceptions, shorter contracts and smaller annual raises.

On Tuesday, union officials held a meeting with more than 40 players, including 29 team player reps, and signaled a willingness to meet the NBA on its 50-50 economic split provided that a list of five or six system-related issues could be resolved to the players' satisfaction. One of the roadblocks in the talks, according to multiple people involved in the process, is that players who previously did not realize how severe the owners' proposal was had become emboldened to push for significant concessions on the remaining system points. Even if and when a deal is reached, agents who have long opposed the concessions delivered to the league by union negotiators will be advising their clients to review the proposal closely and vote against it if it isn't substantially different than what the players learned about Tuesday.

"The players aren't going to be hoodwinked on this one," one such agent told CBSSports.com.

Also slowing progress in the bargaining room, according to one of the people briefed on the talks, was the fact that the league still has not fully shared details of its plans to enhance revenue sharing -- a mechanism that would redistribute money from high-revenue teams to low-revenue teams at supposedly more aggressive rate than previously. Hard-line players and agents are resisting further system concessions, which the league says it needs to create more competitive balance, until it becomes clear what owners are going to do in that regard through revenue sharing

"Other hurdles" aka we're all fucked.

[DPG21920]

It's not really that surprising IMO if you've paid attention to the lockout. Hope I'm wrong.

[Nathan89]

If the deal doesn't get done tonight they'll probably have another meeting tomorrow. This allows owners keep the credibility of that 47% bluff by saying the meeting is continuing. The deal will be done soon.

[Nathan89]

Progress on mid-level, but other hurdles emerge


Also Thursday, a new hurdle emerged in the discussion over when teams would face the new restrictions owners are proposing for teams above the luxury tax threshold. Two of the people briefed on the talks said owners were pushing for teams under the tax at the time of the transaction to be restricted from using the full mid-level -- four-year deals starting at $5 million -- if the signing put the team over the tax. In that case, the team would be restricted to use of the mini mid-level. Union negotiators want the new restrictions to be based on where a team's payroll sits in relation to the tax prior to the use of the exception -- not where it stands afterward.


This is a positive sign. When the restrictions will be in-forced indicates to me that the restrictions are pretty close to determined.

[DPG21920]

Per David Aldridge


10 hrs today. Twenty two hours last two days. As one of the people in the room said hours ago, a long, long list of issues remain...

[ElNono]

Playing Skyrim. Fuck this shit.

[crc21209]

WojYahooNBA
Meeting wrapping up. News conferences expected to start in 10 minutes.
15 seconds ago

WojYahooNBA
Owners revised offer will be working off current negotiations with players -- not the threatened 'reset' offer awaiting if talks broke down.
34 minutes ago

WojYahooNBA
After finishing call with owners' labor relations committee, David Stern will deliver union a revised offer tonight, league sources tell Y!
38 minutes ago

WojYahooNBA
Stern hasn't brought completed deal - nor framework - to owners for approval yet, source says. After strong Wednesday, momentum does remain.
5 hours ago

http://twitter.com/#!/WojYahooNBA

[crc21209]

Stern To Deliver Revised, Presumably Improved Offer To Players

Nov 10, 2011 10:44 PM EST


Following a call with the owner's labor relations committee, David Stern will deliver a revised offer to the players on Thursday evening, according to sources.

The offer will be based off the progress of current negotiations and not the threatened 'reset' offer.

The new offer is presumably addressing issues the union has in regards to the system elements.

An ownership source tells ESPN's Chris Broussard that the revised offer will give players "meaningful stuff", but will remain at a bRI split of 50/50. The source also described talks as complicated.

Via Adrian Wojnarowski/Yahoo! Sports (via Twitter)


Read more: http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/216475/Stern_To_Deliver_Revised_Presumably_Improved_Offer _To_Players#ixzz1dMjCzNwB

[crc21209]

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
After reviewing, Fisher says NBA's offer isn't enough "to try and entice us to finish this out tonight." Players will step back, confer.
8 seconds ago

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Would expect union leadership will study proposal overnight, confer with players and meet with NBA again on Friday. No confirmation though.
4 minutes ago

[crc21209]

HowardBeckNYT Howard Beck
Union will take NBA's revised proposal under review for a few days and confer with the 30 player reps before acting on it.

[ElNono]

No deal :sleep

[DPG21920]

Looks like no new meeting set. Players union will meet on Monday or Tuesday to discuss next steps. But not meeting tomorrow.

[crc21209]

"There was movement by the NBA but not enough" - Billy Hunter

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

You have to be kidding me..

[DPG21920]

Kind of sounds like the players will accept the proposal, or that at least they will try to sell them on it.

[timtonymanu]

Yeah they don't sound like they will right away reject it like the last one, but I don't know, things might change again.

[crc21209]

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Asked ownership source if this proposal is last, best before league delivers so-called 'reset' offer: "Looks that way to me," source said.

[DPG21920]

It's still a sh*t sandwich, but it looks like they are going to try and push this thing through.

[crc21209]

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Hunter on owners latest offer "It's not the greatest proposal in the world, but I have an obligation to bring it to (the membership)..."

[vy65]

Lol owners give more to the players and the union still won't give up dat pussy.

[DPG21920]

It's smart for the owners to not put a time limit on it IMO. It makes it seem softer to the players. Not forced. Almost a mind trick to say, this is a fair, final offer so we want you to really think about it and we don't want you to rush because this is as good as it will get.

[DPG21920]

lol commissioner joke fail.

[crc21209]

lol commissioner joke fail.

What did he say?

[DesignatedT]

daldridgetnt David Aldridge
League now. Stern: revised proposal attempts to meet union concerns, based on 72-game season starting Dec. 15

[DPG21920]

For context, Billy Hunter said something along the lines of "in our room, if you put the air on it was too cold, if you put the heat on, it was too hot..."

Stern said: "I want to clear up that I wasn't in control of their temperature. It was Adam."

No one laughed.

[timtonymanu]

For context, Billy Hunter said something along the lines of "in our room, if you put the air on it was too cold, if you put the heat on, it was too hot..."

Stern said: "I want to clear up that I wasn't in control of their temperature. It was Adam."

No one laughed.

Lol I caught that too. That was so awkward.

[DPG21920]

Also said there is a timeline more or less, not that there wasn't one at all like Hunter said.

[ElNono]

tbh, it's very likely that Adam Silver will be the next commish, and for the life of me I can't think of a guy that looks more of a douchebag than him. I think he's worse than Stern.

[DPG21920]

Smithers tbh.

[crc21209]

For context, Billy Hunter said something along the lines of "in our room, if you put the air on it was too cold, if you put the heat on, it was too hot..."

Stern said: "I want to clear up that I wasn't in control of their temperature. It was Adam."

No one laughed.

:lol. So DPG and everyone else, what % would you put on this deal getting done early next week...

[timtonymanu]

So does all this affect anyone's belief on the lockout ending?

[crc21209]

72 game season starting December 15th sounds good to me. Let's finish this shit already....

[timtonymanu]

tbh, it's very likely that Adam Silver will be the next commish, and for the life of me I can't think of a guy that looks more of a douchebag than him. I think he's worse than Stern.

Really? No one ever boos him at the draft. Not saying I don't disagree.

[DPG21920]

:lol. So DPG and everyone else, what % would you put on this deal getting done early next week...

Based on what I have heard from the players right there, I think there is a better chance than I thought before I heard them speak. I thought there was a 5% chance they came out with an agreement today because I saw no reason for the owners to all of the sudden change their minds and soften. However, it seems like for the first time the offer is good enough to at least try and pitch it, even if the deal is still really, really bad for players :lol

I'd say about a 20% chance they get a deal done next week. 80% decertification or something along those lines.

[Buddy Holly]

So does all this affect anyone's belief on the lockout ending?

I think it's "over" but anything can happen.

[Buddy Holly]

Really? No one ever boos him at the draft. Not saying I don't disagree.

Who boo's the second man in charge?

[timtonymanu]

I don't know I just really hate Stern. I don't know Silver that much.

[crc21209]

NBA Will Play 72-Game Season If Deal Accepted
Nov 10, 2011 11:21 PM EST

David Stern and Adam Silver addressed the media following Thursday's bargaining session.

"We've had another couple of intense days," said Stern. "A couple hours ago, after Peter Holt and I were in touch with the labor relations committee, we made a revised proposal to the union to address their concerns as best we could."

Stern says they are looking to have a 72-game season with the first games beginning December 15th, if a deal is reached.

The clock on their offer will remain stopped until the player representatives have a chance to review it. If the deal is not accepted, the owners will revert back to their 47% offer.

Stern said that some players may not like the deal and that certain owners don't like the offer.

If the players accept the offer, the 2012 NBA Playoffs and Finals will be moved back one week, according to Silver.

"There comes a time where you are done negotiation and we are," said Stern.

"We await the response from the union. We've done our best," said Stern.


Read more: http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/216477/NBA_Will_Play_72_Game_Season_If_Deal_Accepted#ixzz 1dMshD9le

[DesignatedT]

I don't like how everyone has the whole weekend to think about it but it seems like the players will take the deal early next week if the owners don't all the sudden have a change of heart.

[Buddy Holly]

I'd say about a 20% chance they get a deal done next week. 80% decertification or something along those lines.

No way they decertify.

[DPG21920]

They don't have to actually decertify. They can do a few things "along those lines".

[crc21209]

sam_amick Sam Amick
Deals typically done when both sides see something they don't like but could live with. Hunter and Stern both sound that way tonight.

[slick'81]

god to think their could be basketball next month....*fingers crossed*

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

The players just can't win, the ball has always been in the owners' hands. If they decertify, or do anything "along those lines" things will get incredibly ugly. Accepting this revised offer if the only thing close to victory that the players can experience. They called the bluff, they forced the owners to make a better deal, it's enough, let's have some bball by christmas.

[DPG21920]

This system has the potential to change things big time.

[DPG21920]

Tree of Woj:


Several agents tell Y! Sports they have 200-plus player signatures for union decertification petition and paperwork could be filed Friday.

[SequSpur]

This whole thing is dumb....Spurs are done anyway, so cancel the season, decertify, move the team, I don't gaf....

Fuck tpark, fuck solid d, fuck dizzg.....

fuck Pop and drunk ass DWI gettin RC Buford.....

Fuck matt bonner....

Fuck Malik Rose's contract...

Fuck the Spurs.

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

So, they're signing off on not decertifying? or they are signing on decertifying?

[The_Worlds_finest]

yacht, and its jordan playing hardball....The owners didnt get rich by owning a team.

[crc21209]

Tree of Woj:

How could they sign off on decertification if Hunter and Fisher havent even proposed the new deal to the players yet?

[crc21209]

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
The seven major agencies will likely get together on a conference call Friday, but nothing scheduled yet, agents say.
1 minute ago

[crc21209]

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
For players, start of the decert process doesn't preclude them from agreeing to owners proposal next week. Yet it does give them options.

[crc21209]

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Don't have full details of revised owners' proposal, but league barely moved on most of important system issues, sources say.
1 minute ago

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
From team executives to agents, a lot of questions about why union needs to wait until Monday or Tuesday to bring player reps to New York.

[crc21209]

ChrisMannixSI Chris Mannix
Hearing from players, most very interested to see how far the NBA moved on the tax issues.
38 seconds ago

[crc21209]

ESPNSteinLine Marc Stein
Growing desire among frustrated players and "Super 7" agents to start decertification clock Friday, sources say. Final decision forthcoming
1 minute ago

[DesignatedT]

Chris_Broussard Chris Broussard
Owners' new offer includes new $2.5 mill exception.Also, will raise minimum payroll for teams (used to b 75% of cap, will now b much higher)

[DPG21920]

Per Danny Green:


The email I jus received on this update got me HOT...we would b fools to take this deal

[crc21209]

Per Danny Green:

Shut up scrub, and accept it.....

[Nathan89]

I predict another two day session next week ending with a deal.

[timtonymanu]

Shut up scrub, and accept it.....

LOL is he even gonna be in the NBA next year?

[ElNono]

Players can file for decertification with the NLRB and it would take about 45 days to get that approved or denied. During that time, union and league can still negotiate.

[DesignatedT]

Shut up scrub, and accept it.....

lol

[Dex]

Fuck the agents. They don't care about the season, the owners, or the players concerns. All they care about is how it will affect their stuffed bank accounts, and they'll damn the season to get as much as they can out of this deal.

[spurs10]

Fuck the agents. They don't care about the season, the owners, or the players concerns. All they care about is how it will affect their stuffed bank accounts, and they'll damn the season to get as much as they can out of this deal.
One thing for sure is the players need to do what is best for them and pay no mind to the agents. This may be about as good an offer as they are going to get from the NBA and they need to decide if they should play ball or walk away. Hardliners from both sides are not going to win the day in all probability. Everyone is being a poker player at this point, so who knows how they'll play it. Hunter sounded about as close to being near the end of all this as we could expect. Fisher's not jumping for joy, but he's going to the players with the revisions.
Also wondering if there is anybody, other than myself, that is ready to kill the "and" dude for the Coke Zero ads!!!!???
:flag:

[Ditty]

So if 16 players vote that they approve of this deal, then the lockout is over pretty much.

[ElNono]

So if 16 players vote that they approve of this deal, then the lockout is over pretty much.

I don't think that's correct. IIRC, once a deal is put to a vote, every player can vote yes, no or abstain.

[crc21209]

ESPNSteinLine Marc Stein
Ominous warning from source on players' side expecting NBA offer to be rejected: "Nothing was addressed. It's same offer as it was before."
23 minutes ago

[crc21209]

Marc Berman of the New York Post reports that Billy Hunter told him that there was very little difference in the new deal.



Read more: http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/216483/One_Players_Side_Source_Expects_Offer_To_Be_Reject ed#ixzz1dNOaUlFp

[crc21209]

The new offer from the owners to the players includes a new $2.5 million exception.

It also will raise the minimum payroll for teams from its current level of 75% of the cap to 85%, according to Sports Illustrated's Chris Mannix.

Read more: http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/216481/Minimum_Payroll_To_Be_Raised_To_85_Percent_Of_Cap# ixzz1dNOnWDXv

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

It's unfair for the players, but if they decertify, they are complete morons.

[crc21209]

SeanDeveney Sean Deveney
Source says league conceded on sign-and-trades for taxpayers. That's a big one for the union to have.

[timtonymanu]

Goddamn it's gonna be a long 5 days.

[DesignatedT]

Seems like the league has given a lot of the system areas to the players. Obviously the economics haven't changed but I thought that was widely known. This offer looks quite different then the last one from what I've seen so far.

[spurs10]

SeanDeveney Sean Deveney
Source says league conceded on sign-and-trades for taxpayers. That's a big one for the union to have.
This was the one I was wondering about....might be the most important system issue for the union.

[TDMVPDPOY]

i thought agents still get paid no matter what circumstances...

same with billy hunters annual salary of 2.5m....

lol the players...

[Dex]

i thought agents still get paid no matter what circumstances...

same with billy hunters annual salary of 2.5m....

lol the players...

I assumed the agents make a percentage of whatever deal they get for their players. Thus is if there is less money on the table for the players, there is less money on the table for the agents.

[crc21209]

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Who knows where players heads will be by Monday, but there's a lot of frustration and anger with union leadership tonight.
17 minutes ago

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Another veteran role player texts: "How quickly does Billy (Hunter) get fired after we sign this bull----?"
18 minutes ago

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Player rep (cont.): "We told them not to go past 53 percent. They did. We told them we're not taking this deal. Why waste our time?"
22 minutes ago

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
NBPA player rep on union leadership: "Why do they keep scrambling us to New York for these meetings when they never listen to us?"
24 minutes ago

WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
As one Eastern Conference executive just texted about 72 game sked: "Instead of (the players) missing two checks, they will only miss one."
2 hours ago

[ElNono]

I agree that I don't see Hunter walking away, even though a "disclaimer of interest" would be a much better than decertification if the players want to go that route at this point. They wouldn't need the 50% votes, no waiting for 45 days since no NLRB ruling would be necessary and they could file a anti-trust lawsuits as soon as Hunter extend the letter to Stern.

[DJ Mbenga]

my guess is there arent enough hard line decertification guys to block a ratification of the deal or agreeing to it but there are enough to talk people out of the deal. they are gonna do the same thing as last time. meet with everyone and break it all down. players have complained they get more info from the media than they do from their leadership. the owners did very little but i think its enough. the players are getting raped. they should stop struggling the nba has already penetrated.

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

my guess is there arent enough hard line decertification guys to block a ratification of the deal or agreeing to it but there are enough to talk people out of the deal. they are gonna do the same thing as last time. meet with everyone and break it all down. players have complained they get more info from the media than they do from their leadership. the owners did very little but i think its enough. the players are getting raped. they should stop struggling the nba has already penetrated.

Exactly. We have a bunch of people here sympathizing for the players, but the fact of the matter is, the NBPA never had a fighting chance. There's literally nothing they can do that would help themselves at this point, other than accept the huge paycut and continue getting paid an absurd amount of money just to be famous and beloved, and play ball.

[Bruno]

I don't see players voting no to the new CBA. The pressure of not being paid and looking like the bad guys among fans will push the to accept the deal even if they hate it.

NBA season will likely start on December 15th. :tu

[slick'81]

I don't see players voting no to the new CBA. The pressure of not being paid and looking like the bad guys among fans will push the to accept the deal even if they hate it.

NBA season will likely start on December 15th. :tu


god lets hope so!! well no soon its do or die time

[Brazil]

I don't see players voting no to the new CBA. The pressure of not being paid and looking like the bad guys among fans will push the to accept the deal even if they hate it.

NBA season will likely start on December 15th. :tu

considering the amount of frustration I perceived during the press I'm not so optimist, I don't see the players signing this stuff monday tbh.

[TimmehC]

Do they really have to torture us by making us wait until next week? Where's the sense of urgency?

[boutons_deux]

"looking like the bad guys among fans"

They're getting screwed by owners, but I suppose the owners' PR machines are more effective than the NBPA's PR. Without the players, no NBA, no franchise owners. My guess is most of the owners don't GAS about bball, only about making money, and/or getting tax write offs for their losses. It's A Business.

[DPG21920]

I don't think they take the deal.

[vy65]

After 133 days of the lockout we finally got a clear vision of what the union is fighting for…even if it took NBA deputy commissioner Adam Silver to articulate it for them.

"In order for us to have the competitive balance we want, it restricts player movement to a certain degree,” Silver said, both summarizing the proposal that’s on the table and providing a huge window into the hidden stakes.

This is about control. Will players get to determine where they play at any stage in the prime of their careers, or will the system and the teams dictate the scenarios? Will agents be marginalized, left without the ability to play teams off each other or broker a deal? It’s at the core of many proposals that have bounced around during the negotiating sessions, including the amount teams in the luxury tax are able to spend on the midlevel exception and the ability of luxury tax teams to engage in sign-and-trade deals. The owners’ intentions are two-fold: to limit the ability of big-market teams to hoard talent and make it financially undesirable for players to go to cities that have every other advantage. It wouldn’t keep another team from duplicating the Miami Heat’s star collection – remember, the Heat matched LeBron James and Chris Bosh with Dwyane Wade by gutting the roster to get way under the salary cap – but it would hinder them from bringing in the necessary complimentary players to win a championship. Or it could force a tail-end veteran into the difficult choice of one last payday or one last shot at a ring.

One of the reasons the union has been playing from behind since the first quarter of these negotiations is that the league has successfully framed the terms of the dispute in the public’s eye and the union never made it clear what it was fighting for. Early on David Stern latched on to the ideal of a 50/50 split of revenues, the simplest concept for the public to grasp. What’s more fair than 50/50? How could the union not take that and get the season underway?

All the union leadership countered with was vague talk about “system issues” and how they were unfair. They didn’t put it in relatable terms. They didn’t bother to ask the fans how they would feel if they were told where they had to work for their first four years out of school, or if their employers, with no advance warning, could send them to another city. Fans like to counter that it doesn’t matter because the players make a lot of money, but the salaries are irrelevant – doctors, lawyers and Wall Street traders can be highly compensated as well without the same restrictions. Besides, if fans want to make this about money, then they can’t be mad if their favorite player leaves their team to sign a bigger contract elsewhere.

If the union played it smartly they’d say that now that the players have signaled their willingness to drop to 50 percent, the same question that was repeatedly demanded of the players – “Why isn’t 50/50 good enough for you?” – must be asked of the owners. After all, by some estimates simply reducing the players’ share of basketball related income from 57% to 50% would wipe out the $300 million in losses the owners said they suffered last year. That ought to be enough in itself.

The owners aren’t stopping there. Like the NCAA member institutions that approve ridiculously intricate rules because they don’t trust each other, the NBA’s have-nots are doing everything they can to keep talent from accumulating in select spots. They want, for instance, to avoid a repeat of Carmelo Anthony forcing his way to New York while being handed a lucrative contract on the way out of Denver. In the process, they’re putting their own interests ahead of the league as a whole. Player movement is better for the NBA. Fans feed off trade rumors and they devour big free agent signings. And it’s been demonstrated again and again that interest in the NBA is at its highest when competitive balance is at its lowest. Consider all that nostalgia for the 1980s, when the Lakers and Celtics won eight championships in nine years, or for the 1990s, when every year Michael Jordan was in training camp the Bulls ended the season with a victory rally in Grant Park. The league’s broadcast partners are much happier when they get Lakers-Celtics instead of Spurs-Pistons…and when the networks are happy, they write bigger checks for rights fees.

It’s possible to have it both ways, even under the old rules. The Heat were the best thing to happen to the NBA in 2010-11, making regular-season games matter for the first time since the Bulls embarked on their run at the record in 1995-96. At the same time, the Memphis Grizzlies won more playoff games than the Los Angeles Lakers, and the Oklahoma City Thunder went deeper into the postseason than the Boston Celtics. Big-market storylines and small-market opportunities can co-exist.

The union should be framing its disagreement with the owners in terms of individual freedom and fantasy league-like roster possibilities. Instead they’ve come off as simply bickering about money. They’re down to a $2 million difference between the mid-level exception the NBA wants to offer for teams in the luxury tax and what the players want to see. There were only seven luxury-tax paying teams last season, so if this had applied last year we’d be talking about seven players and a total of $14 million per year. These are the details that are holding up a deal worth more than $4 billion annually?

If the players could spin it as the end of true free agency, or a plot to keep teams from adding the player to put them over the top, it might sound more understandable. But if the best they can do is have Adam Silver spell it out for them, they’ll lose both the collective bargaining negotiations and the public relations contest.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/33240/finally-the-real-fight

[vy65]

Does the fact that the proposed CBA is intended to stop shit like Lebron from joining the Heat and Melo going to NYC change anyone's mind?

[Bruno]

considering the amount of frustration I perceived during the press I'm not so optimist, I don't see the players signing this stuff monday tbh.

They are for sure frustrating but they don't have a better option than taking this deal. If they want to counter that, some superstars and big agents need to start an united front with a precise plan to get a better CBA than owners current offer. There is a leadership crisis among players. If nobody step up to replace Hunter and Fisher, I think they are screwed and will be forced to accept that deal.

[Nathan89]

Players are going to respond with counter with little tweaks. Another 2 day process and the deal is done. I'm optimistic because I think they are pretty close. They don't want to take steps back in the negotiation, lose more games, more money, etc.

[eric365]

They are for sure frustrating but they don't have a better option than taking this deal. If they want to counter that, some superstars and big agents need to start an united front with a precise plan to get a better CBA than owners current offer. There is a leadership crisis among players. If nobody step up to replace Hunter and Fisher, I think they are screwed and will be forced to accept that deal.

Who could step up like Jordan in 1998 ?
Wade and KG tried something but it was not successful at all. Maybe Kobe can but he doesn't seem to care much

[ElNono]

Does the fact that the proposed CBA is intended to stop shit like Lebron from joining the Heat and Melo going to NYC change anyone's mind?

I understand the severe butthurt from guys like the Nuggets owner and Dan Gilbert in Cleveland, but I simply don't see how they can keep around players that are disgruntled/unhappy with their situations or players that have their mind set to move somewhere else. It's not like some of these guys didn't take salary pay cuts to go to some of these teams (IIRC, Bosh ended up getting less than what was offered by Toronto, same with Lebron). They'll just make it up with sponsorship on a larger market.

[dbestpro]

Players will beat their chest and cry and scream that there is no way they will accept the current deal, but as soon as they get a chance to vote incognito, they will approve the deal by a wide margin.
In the end, even with a union, its every man for himself. With the majoritiy of players lasting up to 5 years more, give or take a few years, they know they cannot afford to miss anymore paychecks for some kid that's still in junior high.

[vy65]

I understand the severe butthurt from guys like the Nuggets owner and Dan Gilbert in Cleveland, but I simply don't see how they can keep around players that are disgruntled/unhappy with their situations or players that have their mind set to move somewhere else. It's not like some of these guys didn't take salary pay cuts to go to some of these teams (IIRC, Bosh ended up getting less than what was offered by Toronto, same with Lebron). They'll just make it up with sponsorship on a larger market.

I think that part of the problem is the notion that a butthurt player should get his way by demanding a trade to a city of his choice. That's bullshit. I understand that these guys are human - and that you can't just say get over it - but at the same time, they're professionals and really should get over it. Disgruntled players are a problem for sure. Disgruntled players with the ability to hijack their teams for months at a time is, I think, a much bigger problem.

I think that reducing the avenues open for players to demand their way off of a team would go a long way towards changing their attitudes. It's easy to be butthurt and not suck it up when you're stuck on a team. When there are options available to you - being butthurt is advantageous in that you might get your way.

In all, I think cutting off these options (like the whole S&T exclusion) is better for the league.

[ElNono]

I think that part of the problem is the notion that a butthurt player should get his way by demanding a trade to a city of his choice. That's bullshit. I understand that these guys are human - and that you can't just say get over it - but at the same time, they're professionals and really should get over it. Disgruntled players are a problem for sure. Disgruntled players with the ability to hijack their teams for months at a time is, I think, a much bigger problem.

I think that reducing the avenues open for players to demand their way off of a team would go a long way towards changing their attitudes. It's easy to be butthurt and not suck it up when you're stuck on a team. When there are options available to you - being butthurt is advantageous in that you might get your way.

In all, I think cutting off these options (like the whole S&T exclusion) is better for the league.

I don't necessarily disagree that players shouldn't hijack a team. I just don't see what you can really do about it when player's contracts eventually do end and they do become free agents. Ultimately, a sign and trade is actually a positive for the team the player is departing from because at least they get something in return for the player that just doesn't want to stay there anymore.

Then there's the fact that big market owners don't really give two shits about the small market guys, and will pimp their teams to top talent no matter how much of a douche the player has been to their previous team.

I just don't think any of these 'penalties' really addresses that problem, because I just don't see how you can have a solution to that.

[Bruno]

Who could step up like Jordan in 1998 ?
Wade and KG tried something but it was not successful at all. Maybe Kobe can but he doesn't seem to care much

One player won't be enough. It will take a dozen of superstar to have some kind of impact of owners.

Right now, NBPA's executive committee is: Derek Fisher, Keyon Dooling, James Jones, Matt Bonner, Maurice Evans, Roger Mason, Chris Paul, Theo Ratliff and Ethan Thomas. Aside of Chris Paul, who is in a special situation since Hornets owner is the NBA, it's a bunch of scrubs. I'm sure Holt would be more friendly if he faced Tim Duncan instead of these players.

[Dex]

One player won't be enough. It will take a dozen of superstar to have some kind of impact of owners.

Right now, NBPA's executive committee is: Derek Fisher, Keyon Dooling, James Jones, Matt Bonner, Maurice Evans, Roger Mason, Chris Paul, Theo Ratliff and Ethan Thomas. Aside of Chris Paul, who is in a special situation since Hornets owner is the NBA, it's a bunch of scrubs. I'm sure Holt would be more friendly if he faced Tim Duncan instead of these players.

Instead, he's facing off against Matt Bonner. No wonder he's being such a dickhead. :lol Not to mention the irony of championing these causes that help protect owners from their own mistakes....like Matt Bonner.

[vy65]

I don't necessarily disagree that players shouldn't hijack a team. I just don't see what you can really do about it when player's contracts eventually do end and they do become free agents. Ultimately, a sign and trade is actually a positive for the team the player is departing from because at least they get something in return for the player that just doesn't want to stay there anymore.

Then there's the fact that big market owners don't really give two shits about the small market guys, and will pimp their teams to top talent no matter how much of a douche the player has been to their previous team.

I just don't think any of these 'penalties' really addresses that problem, because I just don't see how you can have a solution to that.

Everything I've read so far indicates that restricting player movement is the "philosophy" motivating the deal as opposed to concrete provisions of the CBA itself. That said I think the new CBA could do this by:

1. Eliminating the S&T in 2013 (after the initial 2 year period ends).
2. By restricting the use of MLEs by tax paying teams
3. Ramping up the penalty from 1:1 to 1:3, 1:4, or wherever they're at currently.

Adande's point was that you can't directly prevent super-teams from being formed in big markets. The point of these provisions is to "hinder them from bringing in the necessary complimentary players to win a championship."

You're right that a S&T helps a team who's losing their star-player. But I think the point of all these restrictions is to disincentivize their star from leaving in the first place. And keeping your star is way better than losing him for pennys on the dollar in some S&T.

Will these provisions ultimately work? Who knows. But these restrictions are way more powerful than the current CBA. If there's a chance it works, I'm for it.

[vy65]

Whether it works or not - I can't say. Ultimately, I think its a good thing that the league is trying to do something about this.

[DJ Mbenga]

Do they really have to torture us by making us wait until next week? Where's the sense of urgency?

the 30 team representatives have to fly in so they break it down. takes time. just wait if this comes to vote its gonna take like 4 days for all the players to fly in to NY. with that said im not feeling optimistic. like ive said before this is rape, they are getting screwed yet the players have seen stern not follow up on his threat they negotiated again. the players can and probably and will decertify and say lets talk more , are you willing to destroy the season over small system issues? the delay is also probably to try and convince peopel to vote. its like fisher is boehner he has his problem childs in his constituency and he has to make sure the thing can pass before he brings it to vote.

[Dex]

Well, it's been assumed that they would need at least 28 days (4 weeks) in order stuff in a condensed free agency period, training camp, and preseason. If they are hoping to play by December 15th and still hope to maintain that, a decision will have to be made by next Wednesday. And even I don't see that happening, because players still have to decide, both sides have to vote, and then the deal has to be ratified. That's a lot to do in 2-3 days.

[baseline bum]

Ultimately, a sign and trade is actually a positive for the team the player is departing from because at least they get something in return for the player that just doesn't want to stay there anymore.

I disagree with this point: lots of times sign and trades are done only to keep from burning bridges with agents. The Spurs sign-and-trade deal that shipped Derek Anderson to Portland for Steve Smith is one example. Who would ever want the last 2 years and $18 million for a player like Smith whose knees were ground to powder by then?

[TimmehC]

Well, it's been assumed that they would need at least 28 days (4 weeks) in order stuff in a condensed free agency period, training camp, and preseason. If they are hoping to play by December 15th and still hope to maintain that, a decision will have to be made by next Wednesday. And even I don't see that happening, because players still have to decide, both sides have to vote, and then the deal has to be ratified. That's a lot to do in 2-3 days.

I read somewhere that even before it goes to a ratification vote, the league would be willing to lift the lockout if the player reps decide to go ahead with a full vote. I think Woj tweeted it last night.

[Mel_13]

It's damn near impossible to overstate the level of incompetence displayed by Billy Hunter through this entire ordeal. You can talk about Eddy Curry, Jerome James and the rest all you want, but the worst contract handed out over the last decade was when the NBPA decided to keep Billy Hunter.

[ElNono]

Whether it works or not - I can't say. Ultimately, I think its a good thing that the league is trying to do something about this.

And I agree. I just don't see it happening. But we'll see. Time will tell.

[ElNono]

I disagree with this point: lots of times sign and trades are done only to keep from burning bridges with agents. The Spurs sign-and-trade deal that shipped Derek Anderson to Portland for Steve Smith is one example. Who would ever want the last 2 years and $18 million for a player like Smith whose knees were ground to powder by then?

I should've prefaced that with "sometimes". Plus I'm pretty sure the Spurs expected more from Smith. He just turned out to be a major turd.

[mountainballer]

It's damn near impossible to overstate the level of incompetence displayed by Billy Hunter through this entire ordeal. You can talk about Eddy Curry, Jerome James and the rest all you want, but the worst contract handed out over the last decade was when the NBPA decided to keep Billy Hunter.

I know some people here who would trade Bonner for Hunter.

[Kori Ellis]

New proposal would allow teams to send players to D-League first 5 years of career and reduce pay to pro-rated 75K.

:lmao Players aren't going to agree to something like this.

[Kori Ellis]

Sources: Players unlikely to accept deal
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7220959/nba-lockout-owners-send-players-d-league-proposal

Once NBA players digest all the details of the owners' new proposal -- including a clause opening the way for more player demotions to the D-League -- it's hard to imagine even those desperate to play would be willing to ratify it, sources who have seen the proposal told ESPN The Magazine's Ric Bucher.

The D-League clause, which had not previously been disclosed, is one of several elements in the owners' proposal to the league's locked-out players that prompted one agent to describe the proposal as "draconian."

The clause would give teams the right to send a player down to the NBA Development League at any time during his first five years and pay him a severely-reduced contract while he's there, a source that has examined the proposal told Bucher.

Any player sent down to the D-League would be paid at a pro-rated scale of $75,000 a season, which is slightly above the current D-League maximum but roughly one-sixth of the NBA minimum, the source said.

The owners' new proposal would also prohibit luxury tax-paying teams from sign-and-trade deals after a two-year "phase-in" period, according to sources.

Non-tax-paying teams also would be prohibited from using the mid-level exception if doing so would take them over the salary cap, sources said.

"They don't want to do a deal," one agent said of the proposals. "And what they've underestimated is the resolve of the players."

NBA commissioner David Stern on Thursday offered players a deal that would, if approved, allow for 72-game season that would start Dec. 15.

Yet the league's latest pitch, according to sources briefed on its contents after adjustments were made Thursday night, contained what the union regards as minuscule financial inducements for the players after nearly 24 hours of negotiations this week.

That disappointed union leaders, who were expecting more after they made a commitment earlier in the week, for the first time since the lockout began, to accept a 50-50 split of annual Basketball Related Income.

"It's not the greatest proposal in the world," NBPA executive director Billy Hunter said of the proposal. "But I have an obligation to at least present it to our membership. So that's what we're going to do."

Hunter said he plans to present the proposal to the player representatives from all 30 teams as early as Monday, as a possible prelude to a full vote from the union's estimated 450 members.

"We don't expect them to love every aspect of our revised proposal," Stern conceded Thursday. "I would say that there are many teams that don't like every aspect of our revised proposal.

"(But) we moved as far as we could and now we're at where we're at."

The ominous response from one source connected to the NBPA, who expects the union to reject the proposal next week after learning of the tweaks offered by the league on the five or so "system" issues that have kept the parties at an impasse: "Nothing was addressed. It's basically the same offer as it was before.

"No way this deal gets taken (by the players). They didn't move on any system issues that concerned us. It's still basically (like) a hard cap with very restrictive rules for player movement."

The most notable elements of the new proposal, confirmed by sources on both sides to ESPN The Magazine's Chris Broussard, are the rise of the "mini mid-level exception" from $2.5 million every other season to $3 million every season and the creation of the additional $2.5 million exception for teams that qualify.

The league, sources said, also relented to some degree on its insistence that taxed teams can't participate in sign-and-trade deals.

Owners are now proposing a phase-in of that restriction that would start in Year 3 of a new labor pact, meaning that prominent summer 2012 free agents such as Dwight Howard, Chris Paul, Deron Williams and Steve Nash still would be eligible to switch teams via sign-and-trade.

The owners, sources say, also have offered to raise minimum team payrolls (which historically had been 75 percent of the salary cap) and raise some season-to-season salary increases.

But one source close to the process told Broussard that while these changes may look significant, "the problem with all of that is that the owners changed the definition of a taxpayer in a way that would destroy (Larry) Bird rights and make it almost impossible to be a taxpayer, so the exceptions would be lost anyway."

[ElNono]

I know some people here who would trade Bonner for Hunter.

Count me in!

[TimDunkem]

ZachLowe_SI (https://twitter.com/#%21/ZachLowe_SI) Zach Lowe



Hearing d league rule may no longer be part of league's official proposal. Def was at some recent point.

[ElNono]

I'm glad holiday season is here. All those new video games should keep me busy until March or so, because I just don't see an NBA season anytime soon, tbh.

[Bruno]

This D-League rule is ugly for the players. If it's in owners' proposal, there is no way players would agreed to the new deal.

I would go as far as saying that if it's owners' proposal, then owners don't want to end the lockout now. Their goal is to have a lengthy lockout to get more than the half of the BRI and a hard cap.

[baseline bum]

Oh my god, are the owners fucking kidding? As if the rookie-scale with its two team-option years wasn't skewed heavily enough in their favor? Wow, there is zero chance for a season; this is going to court.

[slick'81]

well weve heard all along the players wont bite fck this could get uglier fast

[mountainballer]

One player won't be enough. It will take a dozen of superstar to have some kind of impact of owners.

Right now, NBPA's executive committee is: Derek Fisher, Keyon Dooling, James Jones, Matt Bonner, Maurice Evans, Roger Mason, Chris Paul, Theo Ratliff and Ethan Thomas. Aside of Chris Paul, who is in a special situation since Hornets owner is the NBA, it's a bunch of scrubs. I'm sure Holt would be more friendly if he faced Tim Duncan instead of these players.

wrong. if players selected Bonner instead of Fisher to handle the negotiations they come out at 60% with the owners on their knees begging to accept. Matt found his way into Holt's pockets. twice. how can you NOT start this guy in a negotiation match. I'm not sure he didn't also sell his old Grand Prix to Holt. for something like 300K.

[spurs10]

Heard some good news finally. Jason Terry is ready to "walk" if he doesn't like the deal. Is it possible for him to keep walking till he drowns in the Atlantic Ocean. The one bright spot of no basketball has been no Jason Terry.
Of course he's going to have to vote no, as most of the system changes are designed to stop his boss from buying any more titles.

[Mel_13]

This D-League rule is ugly for the players. If it's in owners' proposal, there is no way players would agreed to the new deal.

I would go as far as saying that if it's owners' proposal, then owners don't want to end the lockout now. Their goal is to have a lengthy lockout to get more than the half of the BRI and a hard cap.

It's almost as if their offers are designed to be:

1. Good enough to convince the casual fan (i.e. one that doesn't know much beyond 50/50) that they're negotiating in good faith.

2. Harsh enough that the players are more likely to reject it than accept it because accepting would represent utter capitulation.

[Mark in Austin]

It's damn near impossible to overstate the level of incompetence displayed by Billy Hunter through this entire ordeal. You can talk about Eddy Curry, Jerome James and the rest all you want, but the worst contract handed out over the last decade was when the NBPA decided to keep Billy Hunter.

:tu

[baseline bum]

Per Danny Green:


The email I jus received on this update got me HOT...we would b fools to take this deal


Well, now we see what that was about.

[baseline bum]

Fucking owners playing Lucy, pulling away the cocksucking football again! :pctoss

[DPG21920]

Yet some misinformed souls will blame the greedy players.

[mavsfan1000]

The season is over. Players will decertify. It's all fucking bullshit greed now. Fuck them all.

[baseline bum]

The season is over. Players will decertify. It's all fucking bullshit greed now. Fuck them all.

Do you think they should bend over and take the NBDL rule?

[The Truth #6]

It's damn near impossible to overstate the level of incompetence displayed by Billy Hunter through this entire ordeal. You can talk about Eddy Curry, Jerome James and the rest all you want, but the worst contract handed out over the last decade was when the NBPA decided to keep Billy Hunter.

It's difficult for me to distinguish the differences between Fisher and Hunter sometimes. What are your main issues with Hunter? I'm not saying he's done a great job, just curious. Is his reluctance to decertify your main discontention?

[Bruno]

The NBA, via their crappy PR twitter account, is denying the D-League rule.

That's a good news. This rule was a true deal breaker.

[silverblk mystix]

I am getting optimistic here...I hope my hopes aren't squashed again...by the stupid players actually accepting this deal.

Please...let there be NO NBA season....please.

[TimmehC]

Yeah, that NBDL thing would be worse for Green than what he's doing now, playing in Slovenia/Euroleague. No wonder he was so pissed - surprised he didn't tell Holt to f*** off on his twitter feed.

[Dex]

NBA_Labor NBA Labor
.@RicBucher Incorrect; only preliminary discussions have been held on NBA/NBA D-League relationship; nothing in 11/11 proposal

[DPG21920]

The NBA, via their crappy PR twitter account, is denying the D-League rule.

That's a good news. This rule was a true deal breaker.

That Twitter account is one of the most absurd things I have ever seen. Even if that DL rule isn't in the proposal, the owners don't want to end this truly.

[baseline bum]

So the NBDL rule is essentially a shot over the deck, daring the players to not accept the current proposal?

[Duncan2177]

If the players don't take the deal, they're going to be screwed in the long run. Most of the owners can live without having a season, but these players can't. If they move towards decertification of the player's union, they'll be out of a job for more than one season. The players will be backed into a corner and take the 47% instead of the 50% that was offered. The players work for the owners, if they don't like their job, switch careers.

[DesignatedT]

^Yep.

[DJ Mbenga]

if the players accept a deal this gif will dominate the twitter feeds of the nba writers, because thats exactly what it would be.

http://i39.tinypic.com/2u55q1w.gif

[slick'81]

lol fisher and his arkansas st. degeree getting powned

[Bruno]

That Twitter account is one of the most absurd things I have ever seen. Even if that DL rule isn't in the proposal, the owners don't want to end this truly.

The most ridiculous was when they answered to player through it breaking the most basic rules of the lockout.

It's hard to tell if owners offer is true good faith offer or if it's just a PR move without knowing every details of this offer. A CBA has a lot mechanism that interacts. For example, I wouldn't be overly surprised to learn that owners offer is nearly equivalent of a hard cap.

[Mel_13]

if the players accept a deal this gif will dominate the twitter feeds of the nba writers, because thats exactly what it would be.

http://i39.tinypic.com/2u55q1w.gif

Stern was Hunter's man. He got beat so bad that he's not even in the frame.

[Bruno]

Some details about owners offer:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/story/2011-11-11/nba-owners-labor-offer-details/51170894/1

Players and big market teams are screwed.

[Bruno]

The only good point for players is that they can opt out after 6 years.

[Mark in Austin]

Honestly, why would the owners want to make a deal now when they are so close to seeing how the players respond to missing a paycheck? It doesn't make any sense. If there was a deal to be made it would have been made long ago.

The owners are playing with house money now. Offer the players crap and if they agree it's a bonus. If they turn it down wait until the players miss a paycheck and then come to the table.

The players could have put tons of pressure on the owners with the right public outreach but Hunter's absolute incompetence on the PR side of things has put them in a very difficult spot.

How do you make a BILLION dollar concession with your first offer and be painted as the greedy ones? Awful, awful leadership.

[Giuseppe]

Some details about owners offer:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/story/2011-11-11/nba-owners-labor-offer-details/51170894/1

Players and big market teams are screwed.

Fuck me.

That's an ELE for the Lakers.

[DPG21920]

Ya Bruno, I was going to say that from my understanding, even before reading that link, that the owners offer wasn't all that much different from the one the players wouldn't even vote on.

This is not good.

[benefactor]

They are not going to accept this. They will start the decertification process and wait for the owners response.

[DPG21920]

I agree, but sadly people will call the player idiots and greedy for not taking this completely terrible offer. So it puts a lot of pressure because many who don't understand the financial ramifications of this deal and how it works (at least with some degree of understanding) will just bark and bark and want to be entertained.

[Giuseppe]

I'm more sick to my stomach & closer to tears after reading this:::

• An increased luxury tax. For the first $5 million over the luxury threshold, a team will pay $1.50 for every dollar over the limit. For the next $5 million over the luxury threshold, team will pay $1.75 for every dollar over. For the next $5 million over the luxury threshold, team will pay $2.50 for every dollar over. For the next $5 million over the luxury threshold, team will pay $3.25 for every dollar over. For every $5 million after $20 million, the tax increases 50 cents: $3.50, $4, $4.50, etc.
Teams also face a stiffer tax for exceeding the luxury tax threshold more than three times in any five-year period. A dollar will be added to the above numbers if that happens so that $1.50 becomes a $2.50 tax, $1.75 becomes $2.75, $2.50 becomes $3.50 and $3.25 becomes $4.25.

:::than I was reading about the Penn State Fiasco particulars.

[baseline bum]

Some details about owners offer:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/story/2011-11-11/nba-owners-labor-offer-details/51170894/1

Players and big market teams are screwed.



A person familiar with talks who requested anonymity because he was not authorized to go public said it is likely the season will be lost if players reject the offer.


What a load of crap. Yeah, the owners are going to throw the season in November. :rollin

[baseline bum]

I agree, but sadly people will call the player idiots and greedy for not taking this completely terrible offer. So it puts a lot of pressure because many who don't understand the financial ramifications of this deal and how it works (at least with some degree of understanding) will just bark and bark and want to be entertained.

The NBA players are just stupid n~ggers to a lot of the fans.

[Giuseppe]

The NBA players are just stupid n~ggers to a lot of the fans.

Grim, but, true.

[DPG21920]

Sure comes off that way sometimes, BB

[DJ Mbenga]

that luxury tax deal on the usa today article. wow thats the definition of rape. these concessions of the MLE are meaningless if teams are not in position to spend them. i dont think fisher will even bring this up for vote. its bound to lose by alot.

[Bruno]

And fuck the NLRB for failing to rule out the case in an adequate amount of time. :bang

[dylankerouac]

I agree, but sadly people will call the player idiots and greedy for not taking this completely terrible offer. So it puts a lot of pressure because many who don't understand the financial ramifications of this deal and how it works (at least with some degree of understanding) will just bark and bark and want to be entertained.

If they don't accept the players need some leaders to step up and start thinking about damage control.

[Bruno]

I'm more sick to my stomach & closer to tears after reading this:::

• An increased luxury tax. For the first $5 million over the luxury threshold, a team will pay $1.50 for every dollar over the limit. For the next $5 million over the luxury threshold, team will pay $1.75 for every dollar over. For the next $5 million over the luxury threshold, team will pay $2.50 for every dollar over. For the next $5 million over the luxury threshold, team will pay $3.25 for every dollar over. For every $5 million after $20 million, the tax increases 50 cents: $3.50, $4, $4.50, etc.
Teams also face a stiffer tax for exceeding the luxury tax threshold more than three times in any five-year period. A dollar will be added to the above numbers if that happens so that $1.50 becomes a $2.50 tax, $1.75 becomes $2.75, $2.50 becomes $3.50 and $3.25 becomes $4.25.

:::than I was reading about the Penn State Fiasco particulars.

Lakers will get $150M per year with their local TV deal. Even if they spend $50M in luxury tax, they still will be fine.

What will hurt them is the min MLE for taxpayer and no S&T.

[Dex]

So....tennis, anyone?

[Bruno]

Ken Berger article:
http://ken-berger.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/11838893/33243068


In addition to the seven major agencies that have been clamoring for decertification for months, several other previously moderate agencies have joined the movement, sources told CBSSports.com.

"They've lost me," said one of the previously moderate agents. "Three months ago, we thought this would be done. We thought people would be reasonable."



The introduction of a series of B-list issues -- drug testing in the offseason, an age-limit of 20, and a provision that would allow teams to send players to the D-League during the first five years of their careers and make substantially less than the NBA minimum -- formed a rallying point to get players and agents who formerly were open to considering the league's system proposals unified against it.

Looks like it's taking the ugly road...

And :wow @ owners having such things like the D-League rule as a B-list issue. It's a rule that basically makes all rookies contract unguaranteed and they treating it as a minor item. That's crazy.

[DPG21920]

If you look back at what was said, from Holt saying "the players haven't hurt enough" as well as Hunter telling people "that he was guaranteed the owners would lock the players out and they didn't care if a season was lost" to all of the offers that come out after the dog and pony shows from the "negotiating sessions" it is very clear that there was a predetermined plan from the owners to bust the players and lose a season doing so.

[ElNono]

Some details about owners offer:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/story/2011-11-11/nba-owners-labor-offer-details/51170894/1

Players and big market teams are screwed.

It's basically the same deal from a month ago. smh.

If that's the best Hunter can do, and he has any dignity left, he should hand over a "disclaimer of interest" letter to Stern monday, and players should be suing in federal court Tuesday.

[TimmehC]

I'm more sick to my stomach & closer to tears after reading this:::

• An increased luxury tax. For the first $5 million over the luxury threshold, a team will pay $1.50 for every dollar over the limit. For the next $5 million over the luxury threshold, team will pay $1.75 for every dollar over. For the next $5 million over the luxury threshold, team will pay $2.50 for every dollar over. For the next $5 million over the luxury threshold, team will pay $3.25 for every dollar over. For every $5 million after $20 million, the tax increases 50 cents: $3.50, $4, $4.50, etc.
Teams also face a stiffer tax for exceeding the luxury tax threshold more than three times in any five-year period. A dollar will be added to the above numbers if that happens so that $1.50 becomes a $2.50 tax, $1.75 becomes $2.75, $2.50 becomes $3.50 and $3.25 becomes $4.25.

:::than I was reading about the Penn State Fiasco particulars.

Am I the only one who thinks that the tiny step up to the second level of the tax is kinda wonky?

[DPG21920]

Correct, Nono. And that disclaimer of interest is what I was referring to when I said "decertification or something along those lines". No more time wasting. No more being tricked. No more hoping that logic will prevail. Quit shuffling your feet and either sign off or make a stand.