Convincing US states to require physics

[Agloco]

This column is based on an original article published in PhysicsToday. Unfortunately, that article is not free access. The central issue is one of being able to "sell" physics curiculum to school districts. Most foreign students take twice as many STEM (see below) classes as their American counterparts. This is a sobering reality, especially given the emphasis of the creationism vs evolution curriculum debates of late. One has to wonder if there isn't a connecton there.....

Physics is not something to be scared of, rather it's something to be embraced as appreciated as it gives us a foundation for contextualizing events in our corner of the universe.

http://brane-space.blogspot.com/2011/07/sad-state-of-us-high-school-physics.html


The news in the most recent issue of Physics Today wasn't encouraging in the least, for those of us who'd like to see more U.S. high schoolers studying physics. First, the article (July, p. 29, 'Convincing U.S. States to Require Physics') notes that in terms of the STEM (science, technology, engineering, math) core subjects, the states by and large a doing a lousy job.

I provide the original link to PhysicsToday as well:

http://physicstoday.org/resource/1/phtoad/v64/i7/p29_s1?isAuthorized=no

[Wild Cobra]

But is students were required to take physics, they might actually know how to do math!

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The problem with students learning physics is that most students are not taught algebra, geometry and trigonometry well enough to do it.

High school physics is all straight line and rotational motion, maybe some energy but if you do not know the above disciplines you are going to panic when asked to set up a problem. They are not going to have the tools to set up a coordinate system or be able to isolate variables. Thats the reason why they are scared of it. They do not have the baseline and they know it.

Instead the teacher is going to have to figure out where each students baselines are and bring them up to speed. When you have a class of 30 students that is all but impossible even for very good teachers.

What they need to do is give math and science teachers who actually have the capability to teach the subjects well, better money at the 6-9 grade levels to make it worth their while to teach it.

[Wild Cobra]

The problem with students learning physics is that most students are not taught algebra, geometry and trigonometry well enough to do it.

The lower level physics don't require hard math. I think it actually makes math easier to understand, and a person can visualize real applications for it.


High school physics is all straight line and rotational motion, maybe some energy but if you do not know the above disciplines you are going to panic when asked to set up a problem. They are not going to have the tools to set up a coordinate system or be able to isolate variables. Thats the reason why they are scared of it. They do not have the baseline and they know it.

One of the problems today is that schools aren't teaching well enough. I didn't use any harder math in HS physics than what was common to learn in middle school... at least for my time. Today, the schools don't require the levels of math they once did.


Instead the teacher is going to have to figure out where each students baselines are and bring them up to speed. When you have a class of 30 students that is all but impossible even for very good teachers.

Well, it's simple incentive. Start flunking kids again instead of teaching to the lowest common denominator.


What they need to do is give math and science teachers who actually have the capability to teach the subjects well, better money at the 6-9 grade levels to make it worth their while to teach it.

Merit pay should be part of any job, but try to get that past the unions, since they also look out for the lowest common denominator.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The lower level physics don't require hard math. I think it actually makes math easier to understand, and a person can visualize real applications for it.

One of the problems today is that schools aren't teaching well enough. I didn't use any harder math in HS physics than what was common to learn in middle school... at least for my time. Today, the schools don't require the levels of math they once did.

Well, it's simple incentive. Start flunking kids again instead of teaching to the lowest common denominator.

Merit pay should be part of any job, but try to get that past the unions, since they also look out for the lowest common denominator.

Then that was because you were in the dummie class. i have taught those subjects before on the middle school level by all means keep going.

Harder math? what do you consider 'harder' math.

[Wild Cobra]

Then that was because you were in the dummie class. i have taught those subjects before on the middle school level by all means keep going.

Harder math? what do you consider 'harder' math.
I was doing Algebra II level in the 7th grade.

Dummy? No. I was at one of those at the top.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I was doing Algebra II level in the 7th grade.

Dummy? No. I was at one of those at the top.

then how did you fall so far? And what topics were in your algebra 2 courses.

[Wild Cobra]

then how did you fall so far? And what topics were in your algebra 2 courses.
You want me to remember something ~ 40 years ago?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You want me to remember something ~ 40 years ago?

Thats right you are old AND dumb. Must suck but at least you can use the former as an excuse for the latter.

[Wild Cobra]

Thats right you are old AND dumb. Must suck but at least you can use the former as an excuse for the latter.
Say as you will. At least I understand AC power and know there is such a thing as a brush-less DC motor. You fail to understand the primary reasons three phase was developed.

Without Googling, do you know what the "j" operator is?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Say as you will. At least I understand AC power and know there is such a thing as a brush-less DC motor. You fail to understand the primary reasons three phase was developed.

Without Googling, do you know what the "j" operator is?

Nice, I'm in your head. I explained it you like it was explained to me in signals. You didn't understand I am not particularly worried about it.

And the imaginary world is so wonderful.

[ElNono]

tbh, I was fairly proficient at math in high school, but physics was always something that really turned me off, and I always did poorly mostly because of lack of interest or lack of seeing applicability for it.

I ended up pretty much re-learning the whole thing on my own when writing 3D engines. Then it was more fun, and you could actually visually see what was going on.

[Wild Cobra]

tbh, I was fairly proficient at math in high school, but physics was always something that really turned me off, and I always did poorly mostly because of lack of interest or lack of seeing applicability for it.

I ended up pretty much re-learning the whole thing on my own when writing 3D engines. Then it was more fun, and you could actually visually see what was going on.
That's really the key with math I think. I'll bet most people have a topic that they like, and has math in some form. Even music.

[Nbadan]

Instead the teacher is going to have to figure out where each students baselines are and bring them up to speed. When you have a class of 30 students that is all but impossible even for very good teachers.

We have to be careful of a one size fits all curriculum. Some students exceed in Math and would welcome a introductory physics course, others, not so much...nothing wrong with that...if you take a long look at jobs that hire today, we need more creative thinkers, i.e. right-brain thinkers...the literary creative types...

[Nbadan]

That's really the key with math I think. I'll bet most people have a topic that they like, and has math in some form. Even music.

Hard to find a hobby or occupation that doesn't involve math in some way. The Math curriculum is getting tougher and many kids, social economically disadvantaged or not are rising to the occasion, but in general, its foolish to believe that a kid is gonna get the same rigor in math and science in a south-side district school than a kid at Reagan or Churchill, schools where kids compete for college scholarships.....

[Nbadan]

I was doing Algebra II level in the 7th grade.

Dummy? No. I was at one of those at the top.

I'm willing to bet that most people could not pass a Math HS exit exam after just 2 years out of high school....does that mean they didn't learn math in school? No...they just don't use it enough after high school to refresh their skills....

[scott]

But is students were required to take physics, they might actually know how to do math!

Would they also have to know English?

[Agloco]

tbh, I was fairly proficient at math in high school, but physics was always something that really turned me off, and I always did poorly mostly because of lack of interest or lack of seeing applicability for it.I ended up pretty much re-learning the whole thing on my own when writing 3D engines. Then it was more fun, and you could actually visually see what was going on.

:tu

Indeed. Physics by its very nature is quite intimidating. Unless its made interesting in the proper context, most kids will opt to sleep through it. I remember an experiment regarding magnetism that our 7th grade teacher performed which finally awoke me from my slumber. I was a slacker up to that point.


Would they also have to know English?

Point taken, but I was forced to take that each an every year until I graduated HS, whether or not I wanted to.

Kids are mandated to take one or two years of physics after which they're allowed to take as much basketweaving as thier young hearts desire. Bad ju-ju.

[Trainwreck2100]

i took physics in hs ain't no thing, i don't see how forcing another hard subject on dumbass kids will do anything but lower their already low GPA it's fine as an elective.

[scott]

Point taken, but I was forced to take that each an every year until I graduated HS, whether or not I wanted to.

Kids are mandated to take one or two years of physics after which they're allowed to take as much basketweaving as thier young hearts desire. Bad ju-ju.

My comment was more directed at certain holier-than-thou posters who consistently fail to form coherent sentences. Sorry if it was misinterpreted.

I am all for requiring more science, and I think physics is the best place to start. The fact we require biology and chemistry in high school but not physics actually baffles me.

[Agloco]

My comment was more directed at certain holier-than-thou posters who consistently fail to form coherent sentences. Sorry if it was misinterpreted.

I am all for requiring more science, and I think physics is the best place to start. The fact we require biology and chemistry in high school but not physics actually baffles me.

Ah, my apologies, but you're right about the English issue. I don't think that educators are in touch with the proper way to introduce and convey science. Physics is what everything is built on. Without that context, the work being done in other fields may lack the depth and framework to be utilized correctly. With research becoming increasingly interdisciplinary, this is an important consideration for the future.

[DMC]

If anyone has paid any attention to Chomsky, they would realize that the US agenda has been to keep voters stupid, not educate them. Belief in the supernatural is the best stupid pill ever invented.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Ah, my apologies, but you're right about the English issue. I don't think that educators are in touch with the proper way to introduce and convey science. Physics is what everything is built on. Without that context, the work being done in other fields may lack the depth and framework to be utilized correctly. With research becoming increasingly interdisciplinary, this is an important consideration for the future.

In a reductionist philosophy physics is the foundation of everything. Chemistry and biology were not developed on the basis of classical mechanics however.

[Agloco]

In a reductionist philosophy physics is the foundation of everything. Chemistry and biology were not developed on the basis of classical mechanics however.

Certainly, and I'm no more than 100 percent biased obviously. Other physical disciplines impact those fields though. "Everything" was just part of the sales pitch +)

[Ginobilly]

I'm surprised that today's kids can't write cursive and struggle to do basic mathematics without a calculator.

[LnGrrrR]

I'm surprised that today's kids can't write cursive and struggle to do basic mathematics without a calculator.

Eh, shouldn't be that surprising about the cursive. How often do you use cursive nowadays?

[ploto]

I do not like the idea of requiring that specific science course, but I do like 4 years of science. Some students are interested in anatomy, or 2 years of biology or chemistry, or environmental science. I do not really see the benefit in requiring everyone to take a course called Physics that we all know will not really be it. At some schools, the high school Physics class is not much more than the "Physical Science" class I took in middle school. At other schools, it is really Physics, complete with the need to know higher level math.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I'm surprised that today's kids can't write cursive and struggle to do basic mathematics without a calculator.

I have never understood the point of cursive.

[Halberto]

I do not like the idea of requiring that specific science course, but I do like 4 years of science. Some students are interested in anatomy, or 2 years of biology or chemistry, or environmental science. I do not really see the benefit in requiring everyone to take a course called Physics that we all know will not really be it. At some schools, the high school Physics class is not much more than the "Physical Science" class I took in middle school. At other schools, it is really Physics, complete with the need to know higher level math.

Agreed. Not everyone can study physics, at least at the level it was meant to be studied. I think you summed it up perfectly. Also, I find it pretty funny that a physics organization is stressing the importance of their field. It has as much merit as oil companies stressing the importance of Geology.

[MannyIsGod]

The higher you set the bar the higher students will achieve.

[boutons_deux]

yep, it's all expectations, and not about the silly "esteem building" where nobody loses, everybody gets a reward, which demeans the top students, and gives the bottom people a false sense of achievement.

[RandomGuy]

tbh, I was fairly proficient at math in high school, but physics was always something that really turned me off, and I always did poorly mostly because of lack of interest or lack of seeing applicability for it.

I ended up pretty much re-learning the whole thing on my own when writing 3D engines. Then it was more fun, and you could actually visually see what was going on.

I loved physics and chemistry. The math was not a problem for me, and learning about what made the universe tick, and the fact that you could describe the universe with math was, and is, fascinating.

[RandomGuy]

Agreed. Not everyone can study physics, at least at the level it was meant to be studied. I think you summed it up perfectly. Also, I find it pretty funny that a physics organization is stressing the importance of their field. It has as much merit as oil companies stressing the importance of Geology.

Geology *is* important.

Simply because someone might say something in their best interest does not affect the underlying merit of any argument. Either what they say has some underlying truth or not.

One should be somewhat skeptical of such claims, but can't logically dismiss them outright.

[RandomGuy]

I have never understood the point of cursive.

It meant more before typewriters could knock out the printd word faster than a human could write.

These days... not so much.

My kids' elementary doesn't even bother teaching it. This offends my wife deeply, heh. She is torturing my 9 year old with it.

I think it is just one less irrelevant thing to waste time on at that level. I would rather they spend the time on math/science/art.

[Agloco]

Also, I find it pretty funny that a physics organization is stressing the importance of their field. It has as much merit as oil companies stressing the importance of Geology.

Or like an Oncologist stresing the importance of cancer education? :lol

Who better to extoll the virtues of physics than an organization dedicated to the cause? If not the experts, then who?

I get the point, but the comparison to big oil is a bad one imo.

[MannyIsGod]

The idea that we should dismiss the idea of requiring physics out of hand because of who is proposing it is very very foolish. I do not know what the ideal - if there is one - curriculum for high school students should be but I do believe that in general we set the bar incredibly low. The fact is that we graduate students with diplomas who read and perform basic math skills on a very poor level. I don't know if requiring more physics in HS is a way to remedy that but I do think in general we should be making the curriculum harder and by a good margin. We need to expect more out of the students.

Not everything students take needs to be something they will use in their everyday workplace or career. I personally do not enjoy most of the humanities courses I've had to take regarding history or cultural studies but those courses have a place in how I view the world and how I am able to critically analyze the world around me. There is more to a well rounded individual than to be able to recite field related information.

[Halberto]

I loved physics and chemistry. The math was not a problem for me, and learning about what made the universe tick, and the fact that you could describe the universe with math was, and is, fascinating.

I'm not trying to call you out, but I'm curious as to what you learned in Physics classes. Did you take it in high school? I never had physics in high school, but I did have 2 courses of physics for engineers and I just can't imagine how the majority of high school kids could learn that stuff. What's the point of learning physics if you can't even utilize trigonometry and basic calculus?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The higher you set the bar the higher students will achieve.

Sure but what the question is 'is what is worth achieving?' I do believe that physics is important in the sense that it gives a very real understanding of the world around us. How forces interact is in front of us each and every day. It certainly helps with the mysticism being passed off as reality that you see all over the place.

Other things this is not the case. For example, many Algebra 2 curriculum as for amongst other things asks for the study of imaginary numbers and matrices. Imaginary numbers derive from the application of geometry(trig) to a cartesian system. Matrices are used for things like solutions of simultaneous equations. Both are only used for very specific high level disciplines like various forms of engineering.

They force feed that to many rank and file high school sophmores. There is absolutely no point and can be counterproductive in the sense that it makes schooling less appealing for many of them. You are teaching them shit they know they are never going to use, we fail to provide them with a baseline in lower schools to learn it and thus they hate it. No one likes to be set up to fail for something that is worthless to their future.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I'm not trying to call you out, but I'm curious as to what you learned in Physics classes. Did you take it in high school? I never had physics in high school, but I did have 2 courses of physics for engineers and I just can't imagine how the majority of high school kids could learn that stuff. What's the point of learning physics if you can't even utilize trigonometry and basic calculus?

Teaching classical mechanics without at least some basis in calculus has always been pretty asinine in my view.

[coyotes_geek]

Eh, shouldn't be that surprising about the cursive. How often do you use cursive nowadays?

Other than signing my name, I don't think I've written anything in cursive since high school.

[coyotes_geek]

I do not like the idea of requiring that specific science course, but I do like 4 years of science. Some students are interested in anatomy, or 2 years of biology or chemistry, or environmental science.

Pretty much where I'm at on this as well. I'm okay with requiring more science, but don't think that it necessarily has to be physics.

[MannyIsGod]

Sure but what the question is 'is what is worth achieving?' I do believe that physics is important in the sense that it gives a very real understanding of the world around us. How forces interact is in front of us each and every day. It certainly helps with the mysticism being passed off as reality that you see all over the place.

Other things this is not the case. For example, many Algebra 2 curriculum as for amongst other things asks for the study of imaginary numbers and matrices. Imaginary numbers derive from the application of geometry(trig) to a cartesian system. Matrices are used for things like solutions of simultaneous equations. Both are only used for very specific high level disciplines like various forms of engineering.

They force feed that to many rank and file high school sophmores. There is absolutely no point and can be counterproductive in the sense that it makes schooling less appealing for many of them. You are teaching them shit they know they are never going to use, we fail to provide them with a baseline in lower schools to learn it and thus they hate it. No one likes to be set up to fail for something that is worthless to their future.

I don't think we need to make school anymore appealing, to be quite frank. I don't want high schools trying to market themselves to students but I rather want society making students understand that not everything in life you have to do is appealing but that doesn't mean its not important.

Furthermore, I don't think many HS sophomores know whether or not they need Algebra 2 or US History or Chemistry. I think they should be exposed to all to ensure that they are able to formulate what they want to do later on in life.

You have to give them the tools early on even if they may not end up using them.

[Wild Cobra]

If anyone has paid any attention to Chomsky, they would realize that the US agenda has been to keep voters stupid, not educate them. Belief in the supernatural is the best stupid pill ever invented.
Ah....

Some supernatural events are real! Question is, which ones are and which ones aren't?

[Wild Cobra]

Certainly, and I'm no more than 100 percent biased obviously. Other physical disciplines impact those fields though. "Everything" was just part of the sales pitch +)
Well, I agree that nearly everything someone is interested in involves physics by some means or another.

[Wild Cobra]

I'm surprised that today's kids can't write cursive and struggle to do basic mathematics without a calculator.
We had slide rules!

[Wild Cobra]

The higher you set the bar the higher students will achieve.
Absolutely.

[Wild Cobra]

It meant more before typewriters could knock out the printd word faster than a human could write.

These days... not so much.

My kids' elementary doesn't even bother teaching it. This offends my wife deeply, heh. She is torturing my 9 year old with it.

I think it is just one less irrelevant thing to waste time on at that level. I would rather they spend the time on math/science/art.
Is shorthand still an elective in school? I would think it to be obsolete with voice recorders combined with computerized speech recognition. Cheaper to use these programs than pay a secretary... ooops excuse my lack of PC... I mean personal assistant... extra money for the extra talent.

[Wild Cobra]

I loved physics and chemistry. The math was not a problem for me, and learning about what made the universe tick, and the fact that you could describe the universe with math was, and is, fascinating.
I did too. I never took math once it wasn't required, instead, I took Chemistry, Physics, Drafting, Mechanics, Electronics, etc. All my electives were technical, and a cake walk for me. Good thing because I was a stoner in HS and didn't care about my grades, but got strait A's in all technical subjects anyway. Funny thing about electronics, is I have studied it as a hobby since 3rd grade, so I never took Electronics I or II. I challenged both courses, and did took electronics as independent study. I was pissed I only got an overall 97% on the tests I challenged.

[Wild Cobra]

The idea that we should dismiss the idea of requiring physics out of hand because of who is proposing it is very very foolish. I do not know what the ideal - if there is one - curriculum for high school students should be but I do believe that in general we set the bar incredibly low. The fact is that we graduate students with diplomas who read and perform basic math skills on a very poor level. I don't know if requiring more physics in HS is a way to remedy that but I do think in general we should be making the curriculum harder and by a good margin. We need to expect more out of the students.

Not everything students take needs to be something they will use in their everyday workplace or career. I personally do not enjoy most of the humanities courses I've had to take regarding history or cultural studies but those courses have a place in how I view the world and how I am able to critically analyze the world around me. There is more to a well rounded individual than to be able to recite field related information.
I think more about physics needs to be taught than what is taught in basic science courses. Make it some real world simple stuff. Just show students how physics affects them. Maybe some acceleration and deceleration dealing with cars, buses, etc. Stress to some idiots why a car cannot stop on a dime when they step out in front of it for example. Maybe some ideas behind how a guitar string or piano wire vibrates. Maybe how sound reacts to a chamber size for wind instruments. Physics doesn't need to be complicated, but a variety of stuff dealing with life might get kids more interested in it.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I don't think we need to make school anymore appealing, to be quite frank. I don't want high schools trying to market themselves to students but I rather want society making students understand that not everything in life you have to do is appealing but that doesn't mean its not important.

Furthermore, I don't think many HS sophomores know whether or not they need Algebra 2 or US History or Chemistry. I think they should be exposed to all to ensure that they are able to formulate what they want to do later on in life.

You have to give them the tools early on even if they may not end up using them.

Most kids are not instilled with a love to learn. I hate to say it but the average American is not too interested in academics. That ethic is passed onto children and while you may want it to be a particular way, that is just not the way it is.

Dropout rates are high and if you continue this train of thought then you are really not going to change that trend. These kids have to be taught that they like to learn and from there society as a whole benefit.

Matrices and imaginary numbers are not going to help the lay person. they just aren't and furthermore a lay person outside of cocktail parties is never going to encounter anything that has to do with either of those things.

Furthermore if you are going to push this type of thing on kids then you need to bring up the baseline. I have tutored children in math and science and all I can say is that the job being done in reading and math classes at the 6, 7, 8 grade level is absolutely abysmal.

For example, i sat in a history class with some of my students. They were 6th and 7th graders and the program was for kids that wanted to get into honors classes but did not have that baseline. We were to get them up to speed so that they could get into said classes. They were smart hardworking kids.

There was a test the following day and the teacher gave each student a sheet with 20 items listed on it and a page number. My kids could not look at the prompt go to the page and find the answer. I literally had to sit down show them how to break down nouns and verbs and look for words of similar meaning.

All three of them had taken a reading course yet they did not even have the most basic reading comprehension skills. Sitting down with them and working with them over algebraic problems was an adventure.

These were hard working kids that gave a damn. if they were not then they did not get into the program. You want to take the dummie kids who don't give a shit and never got that baseline and force matrices on them. Of course they are going to drop out.

Everyone wants to point to Stand and Deliver and horseshit like that about setting high standards but quite frankly unless you have a teacher that is willing and able to put in the work to make it such that they can accomplish these things then you are setting them up to fail.

I know I can teach but there is no way that i am going to do that. not at that pay scale so you are left with people that can get a teaching certificate. Well I am sorry but that is not setting the bar very high. So you get what you get. And with that you have to deal with the reality. Half assed teachers teaching halfassed kids curriculum that neither is prepared for.

Physics? How about algebra be taught worth a damn first.

[MannyIsGod]

Fuzzy - I think if you'll read my previous points you'll see you're making many of the same ones I did above. I am pretty appalled at the reading and math levels of graduating students and I definitely those need to be first in line to be improved. I also think that there is obviously more to it than simply adding on harder classes as a mandate to a diploma but I do think that is part of the long term solution.

I think there are serious fundamental issues with the way these kids are graduating and I definitely understand some of your concerns about turning them off but at some point the bar will need to be raised if we plan on being competitive as a country. The rest of the first world is busy pushing out qualified candidates and if we fail to do the same we will fall behind. In fact, I believe all of our current struggles can be ultimately chased to the fall of our education level relative to the rest of the world.

[LnGrrrR]

i loved physics and chemistry. The math was not a problem for me, and learning about what made the universe tick, and the fact that you could describe the universe with math was, and is, fascinating.

neeeerrrrdddd!!!!!