I heard a Spurs fan say that

[Deuce Bigalow]

If you replace Kobe with Duncan on those 2005-07 Lakers that they would get the 4th seed and make it out of the first round

stats from that season fromm both players

2004-05
Kobe - 27.6 PPG, 5.9 RPG, 6.0 APG
Duncan - 20.3 PPG, 11.3 RPG, 2.7 APG

2005-06
Kobe - 35.4 PPG, 5.3 RPG, 4.5 APG
Duncan - 18.6 PPG, 11.0 RPG, 3.2 APG

2006-07
Kobe - 31.6 PPG, 5.7 RPG, 5.4 APG
Duncan - 20.0 PPG, 10.6 PPG, 3.4 APG

for those 3 years
steals, kobe averaged 1.5, Duncan 0.8
blocks, Kobe averaged 0.6, Duncan 2.3

so If you replaced Kobe with Duncan, would the Lakers be better?

[DMC]

Learn the game of basketball. After that you will no longer overvalue stats.

[pass1st]

Lakers sucked too much those years for any one player to make a difference. If Luke Walton was your starter, you would be lucky to even make the playoffs.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Learn the game of basketball. After that you will no longer overvalue stats.

i know the game of basketball
stats dont tell me everything
but, kobe was the lakers, he did everything for them
duncan did the same for his team
so answer thew question, you saw them both play didnt you

[DMC]

Lakers sucked too much those years for any one player to make a difference. If Luke Walton was your starter, you would be lucky to even make the playoffs.
Walton or Bonner?

[Deuce Bigalow]

daslicer, where are you?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Walton or Bonner?

manu, parker, bruce bowen, horry

[mavsfan1000]

learn the game of basketball. After that you will no longer overvalue stats.
+1

[Deuce Bigalow]

+1

i dont overvalue stats

but it was a comparison, what was i supposed to put?

[pass1st]

Walton or Bonner?

Those two are probably best friends. They share a common interest of being liabilities on teams.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Those two are probably best friends. They share a common interest of being liabilities on teams.

Bonner can actually shoot the 3 really well

[Juggity]

Bonner can actually shoot the 3 really well

except when it actually matters

[ChumpDumper]

Not a good troll attempt tbh.

[DMC]

i dont overvalue stats

but it was a comparison, what was i supposed to put?

Ok I'll play just this one time.

If Kobe shares the ball and learns how to play within the system instead of trying to be the savior in spite of the system, the team very well could have done much better.

Kobe's scoring numbers mean little more than Iverson's. Iverson won a few scoring titles. Like Iverson, Kobe is a volume shooter and the team has to live with the fact that he's going to shoot even at times when others are open. He's going to keep his team out of sync if that gets him more looks. He likes to win if it means he gets the glory, but he seems to prefer loss over sacrificing the number of shots he takes.

Kobe used those years to pad his scoring. Once he realized he had no real big underneath to get him another ring, he said "fuck it" and just got his.

When you have Shaq bitching about not getting touches, you got a problem, especially when Shaq was unstoppable once he got the ball in the paint.

If Kobe finds a way to appease Shaq's need for attention, the Lakers win 5 in a row easily.

[cheguevara]

"replace KObe with Duncan"

another 5 year old thread :rolleyes

[Deuce Bigalow]

Not a good troll attempt tbh.

hows this trolling?

a spurs fan said this, he said that duuncan would make that team better

[Deuce Bigalow]

Ok I'll play just this one time.

If Kobe shares the ball and learns how to play within the system instead of trying to be the savior in spite of the system, the team very well could have done much better.

Kobe's scoring numbers mean little more than Iverson's. Iverson won a few scoring titles. Like Iverson, Kobe is a volume shooter and the team has to live with the fact that he's going to shoot even at times when others are open. He's going to keep his team out of sync if that gets him more looks. He likes to win if it means he gets the glory, but he seems to prefer loss over sacrificing the number of shots he takes.

Kobe used those years to pad his scoring. Once he realized he had no real big underneath to get him another ring, he said "fuck it" and just got his.

When you have Shaq bitching about not getting touches, you got a problem, especially when Shaq was unstoppable once he got the ball in the paint.

If Kobe finds a way to appease Shaq's need for attention, the Lakers win 5 in a row easily.

:lol you just compared kobe to iverson

[ElNono]

2/10... par the course for a luva thread, tbh

[Giuseppe]

I just throw the switch & boil it down. It's ended up the same damn way every fuckin' time since Pierce got happy & Artest ended him:::

Kobe: 5

tired old shit bag Duncan: 4

[Trill Clinton]

ok

[Deuce Bigalow]

^nice sig

[Deuce Bigalow]

I just throw the switch & boil it down. It's ended up the same damn way every fuckin' time since Pierce got happy & Artest ended him:::

Kobe: 5

tired old shit bag Duncan: 4

why u hatin on duncan
how could you hate him?

[DMC]

I just throw the switch & boil it down. It's ended up the same damn way every fuckin' time since Pierce got happy & Artest ended him:::

Kobe: 5

tired old shit bag Duncan: 4

"Then Culby pokes his head out of the bathroom and says 'you know, boiled down, it's still Duncan 4 Kobe 5'".

lol

[DMC]

:lol you just compared kobe to iverson

Exactly right.

Iverson was a volume shooter. Kobe is a volume shooter. You cannot compare volume shooters with people like Duncan using offensive stats.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Exactly right.

Iverson was a volume shooter. Kobe is a volume shooter. You cannot compare volume shooters with people like Duncan using offensive stats.

31.6 ppg on 22.8 FGA is volume shooting?

[Deuce Bigalow]

since when is 45-46% volume shooting?

[DMC]

2006 and 2007 Kobe had more FGA than any other years in his career except 2003. Something happened those years, I am trying to recall what happened the years he had all those FGAs. Oh yeah, other teams won, twice the Spurs and once Dallas (in the West).

The most FGA Allen Iverson ever had in a season was 1940.

Kobe had 2173 one year and 1924 another.

Iverson was a volume shooter. Kobe is a volume shooter.

Iverson took 19906 for 24368pts

Kobe has taken 21370 shots for 27868

Kobe's shooting is 3% higher than Iverson. Kobe has taken more shots than Iverson and they started the same year.

Again, learn the game. Volume shooters like Kobe always have the most points on the team, but the team doesn't always win. Anyone who's watched Kobe over the years knows his high scoring games have often been bad for the team.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe

2008 playoffs
1.367 PPS

2009 playoffs
1.311 PPS

2010 Playoffs
1.313 PPS

to put it in perspective

Michael Jordan

1991 Playoffs
1.406 PPS

1992 Playoffs
1.306 PPS

1993 Playoffs
1.261 PPS

[DMC]

Do you know what a volume shooter is? Obviously not.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe's career PPS: 1.30407113

Iverson's career PPS: 1.22415352

[DMC]

Now look at Pau Gasol

[Deuce Bigalow]

Tim Duncan's career PPS: 1.3161796

Kobe's career PPS: 1.30407113

[Deuce Bigalow]

Pau Gasol's career PPS: 1.39068354

[DMC]

Duncan has a career FG% greater than 50%.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Gasol is very efficient

[DMC]

Pau Gasol's career PPS: 1.39068354
Exactly. Pau got Kobe through.

Now look at Shaqs.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Duncan has a career FG% greater than 50%.

yep at .508%

but its the FT% that hurts him, .688%

[Deuce Bigalow]

exactly. Pau got kobe through.

Now look at shaqs.

1.46970242

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe is a career .454 FG% and .837 FT%
6 seasons of 46+ FG%
and a 1.30 PPS

hes a great scorer

[DMC]

Two players, Pau and Shaq, that ran the team. Using your logic, both players were better than Kobe, certainly more efficient.

So, if the Lakers had Duncan, and Duncan took the same number of shots Kobe took, Duncan would have scored more points.More points means more wins.

[DMC]

Kobe is a career .454 FG% and .837 FT%
6 seasons of 46+ FG%
and a 1.30 PPS

hes a great scorer

Not as great as Shaq and Pau according to you. Ergo Kobe is Robin.

[Giuseppe]

why u hatin on duncan
how could you hate him?

He thinks his shit don't stink.

Everybody poops. Everybody. And it all stinks.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Two players, Pau and Shaq, that ran the team. Using your logic, both players were better than Kobe, certainly more efficient.

So, if the Lakers had Duncan, and Duncan took the same number of shots Kobe took, Duncan would have scored more points.More points means more wins.

lol gasol ran the team, LOL
duncan doesnt shoot that much, and if he did he would average 0.5 APG
remember that kobe averaged 6.0, 4.5, 5.4 APG
and i doubt duncan would score that much getting doubled and triple teamed, he never averaged more than 26 PPG in a season

[DMC]

Tim's shit stinks in a much classier way than others.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Not as great as Shaq and Pau according to you. Ergo Kobe is Robin.

shaq and gasol are more EFFICIENT

there post players, most of there shots are within 10 Feet

most of Kobes shots are 15-23 Feet

[DMC]

lol gasol ran the team, LOL
duncan doesnt shoot that much, and if he did he would average 0.5 APG
remember that kobe averaged 6.0, 4.5, 5.4 APG
and i doubt duncan would score that much getting doubled and triple teamed, he never averaged more than 26 PPG in a season

When you figure out where you are and where you're coming from, let me know.

[Deuce Bigalow]

He thinks his shit don't stink.

Everybody poops. Everybody. And it all stinks.

wow

[Deuce Bigalow]

When you figure out where you are and where you're coming from, let me know.

?

[Giuseppe]

wow

I can only think of one person who may not go Number 2. And she runs this Board with an iron fist & a velvet glove.

[DMC]

?
You are trying to argue from 50 different directions.

I told you Duncan and Kobe cannot be compared because Kobe is a volume shooter, and after much ado you finally say "Duncan doesn't shoot that much".

Way to kick your own ass.

[Deuce Bigalow]

You are trying to argue from 50 different directions.

I told you Duncan and Kobe cannot be compared because Kobe is a volume shooter, and after much ado you finally say "Duncan doesn't shoot that much".

Way to kick your own ass.

and i said that because u said that duncan would score more points than kobe

if Kobes a volume scorer than so is Jordan

[Giuseppe]

You are trying to argue from 50 different directions.

I told you Duncan and Kobe cannot be compared because Kobe is a volume shooter, and after much ado you finally say "Duncan doesn't shoot that much".

Way to kick your own ass.

You compare 'em like this:::

Kobe: 5

tired old shit bag Duncan: 4

Then you stuff your anal beads home, tie the string off on the outside front door knob, wait 10 minutes & dial 911.

[DMC]

You compare 'em like this:::

Kobe: 5

tired old shit bag Duncan: 4

Then you stuff your anal beads home, tie the string off on the outside front door knob, wait 10 minutes & dial 911.

My bread rises just fine though. I hope senility doesn't get me as early as it got you.

[Giuseppe]

My bread rises just fine though. I hope senility doesn't get me as early as it got you.

You're all heart.

[DMC]

You're all heart.

Bend over I'll give you all heart.

[Proxy]

I like how this thread started off saying stats were useless comparisons, and then turned into a copy and paste of stats session... and we have Giuseppe padding his post count stat with the same bullshit troll post for a year... yet he can never justify TD having 2 MVPs and 3 FMVPs to Kobe's 1 and 2. (http://spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=19565)

[Giuseppe]

I like how this thread started off saying stats were useless comparisons, and then turned into a copy and paste of stats session... and we have Giuseppe padding his post count stat with the same bullshit troll post for a year... yet he can never justify TD having 2 MVPs and 3 FMVPs to Kobe's 1 and 2.

I don't do MVPs, COYs, Emmys, Oscars, Delahoya's, ROY, MIP. It's my religion.

I do rings. It's my religion.

Now,

Let us proceed...

[Proxy]

I don't do MVPs, COYs, Emmys, Oscars, Delahoya's, ROY, MIP. It's my religion.

I do rings. It's my religion.

Now,

Let us proceed...

Oh yeah... forgot you were religious.

[DMC]

I don't do MVPs, COYs, Emmys, Oscars, Delahoya's, ROY, MIP. It's my religion.

I do rings. It's my religion.

Now,

Let us proceed...

You do whatever gets you through it.

[Giuseppe]

You don't like Kobe leading the old shit bag Duncan, tired style. That's your GD problem. Tough shit. When it was 4-3 I had to suffer your slings and arrow. Well, I didn't, but, my Lakers Brothers did. Luva and Kevin had to suffer you fools. Well, I'm on a mission from Mitch and Murray. They asked me for a favor. I told them the favor would be to fire your asses. Because a loser is a loser. And that why you're driving a Hyundai.

[Koolaid_Man]

Ok I'll play just this one time.

If Kobe shares the ball and learns how to play within the system instead of trying to be the savior in spite of the system, the team very well could have done much better.

Kobe's scoring numbers mean little more than Iverson's. Iverson won a few scoring titles. Like Iverson, Kobe is a volume shooter and the team has to live with the fact that he's going to shoot even at times when others are open. He's going to keep his team out of sync if that gets him more looks. He likes to win if it means he gets the glory, but he seems to prefer loss over sacrificing the number of shots he takes.

Kobe used those years to pad his scoring. Once he realized he had no real big underneath to get him another ring, he said "fuck it" and just got his.

When you have Shaq bitching about not getting touches, you got a problem, especially when Shaq was unstoppable once he got the ball in the paint.

If Kobe finds a way to appease Shaq's need for attention, the Lakers win 5 in a row easily.

Nice thread Duece..good work but I will take over from here....:lol see Spur fan likes hear no evil and see no evil but they love to speak it...:lol let me interrupt DMC's twisted logic for a moment...:lol

A better measure would be help these players had via their starting line-ups…

Here's the ALL-Star caliber talent Timmy had to work with during this period you speak of…


2004-2005 Spurs:
Bowen , Duncan, Ginobilli, Nesterovic, Parker


2005-2006 Spurs:
Bowen , Duncan, Ginobilli, Nesterovic, Parker (Michael Finley)


2006-2007 Spurs:
Bowen , Duncan, Ginobilli, Nesterovic, Parker (Michael Finley)

Now let’s look at what Kobe had to work with during these same years::lol

2004-2005 Lakers :
Chucky Atkins, Caron Butler, Chris Mihm, Lamar Odom, Kobe Bryant



2005-2006 Lakers:
Kwame Brown, Smush Parker, Chris Mihm, Lamar Odom, Kobe Bryant



2006-2007 Lakers:

Kwame Brown, Smush Parker, Luke Walton, Lamar Odom, Kobe Bryant

(with Brian Cook and Radmonivich substituting in the line-up) .


I doubt seriously the Spurs would switch any of their help players for ours during this time...:lol they're all fucking frauds that say 1.) Kobe had help or 2.) He shot to much...Timmy had All-Stars ( and / or the caliber talent) along with Finals MVP's playing along side him...:lol

Side note:

It's debatable but I don't think MJ ever had shitty teams to the degree that Kobe has.... In his prime MJ was never asked to play with Chutkey Atkins, Smush Parker,* Kwame Brown, Brian Cook, or a Chris Mihm...MJ had warriors, they not all may have been ALL-Stars but they were hard nosed vets and warriors...

sorry for shitting on you yet again DMC...:hat

[DMC]

It's not my fault the Lakers cannot develop their players. They get a 1st overall in Brown and they do nothing with it. Caron goes on to win a ring in Dallas, Lamar is the 6th man of the year and you start who you start.

Rasho? Are you serious?

Spurs developed Tony and Manu (NBA level). They drafted Tim. Bowen found a niche and the Spurs used him in that role.

lol Horry winning 4 rings after leaving LA.

It all boils down to the fact that Kobe couldn't volume shoot the Lakers past the 1st round.

Now, go in the bathroom, wash your snapper, pull your shit together and get the fuck out. I have real talent coming over and I don't want people to know I crossed the tracks.

[Giuseppe]

Kobe: 5

tired old shit bag Duncan: 4

[MR.SILVER&BLack]

like how pippen did more with bulls when mj left then kobe did with lakers when shaq left. give kobe mjs team and see how many rings kobe has. 0. give mj kobes teams and he would at least get to the 2nd round.

[Deuce Bigalow]

like how pippen did more with bulls when mj left then kobe did with lakers when shaq left. give kobe mjs team and see how many rings kobe has. 0. give mj kobes teams and he would at least get to the 2nd round.

kobe won 2 championships and been to 3 consecutive finals without shaq

Fail

[Spursfan092120]

kobe won 2 championships and been to 3 consecutive finals without shaq

Fail

He's talking about before Gasoft.

[Deuce Bigalow]

He's talking about before Gasoft.

lol

just 1 on 5 would be good

[DMC]

kobe won 2 championships and been to 3 consecutive finals without shaq

Fail
You're intentionally obtuse. I hope for your sake and for the sake of the tax payer that's the case, otherwise you have a long, hard row to hoe.

[Deuce Bigalow]

your so full of fail

[DMC]

How's Phoenix this time of year btw?

[LkrFan]

:corn:

[MR.SILVER&BLack]

kobe won 2 championships and been to 3 consecutive finals without shaq

Fail

thought this thread was about kobes team from 05-07.

[Frenzy]

except when it actually matters

:lmao
























:depressed

[z0sa]

Damn Kobe beasted all the way to the lottery.

[Stalin]

dmc regulating the less fortunate

[Bill_Brasky]

Kobe: 5

tired old shit bag Duncan: 4

Thats nice & all.

Now go back and get your fuckin' shine box.

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

I believe both the Spurs and the Lakers would be worse off. However, there is one glaring flaw in this debate which seems to prove this. You don't just replace them with each other and assume what would happen. The only way to do this is if a trade had been made, straight up, Tim for Kobe.

Now, what does this trade mean for these franchises?

For the Spurs, they suddenly lose a lot of size and defensive intensity. True, they have a quick scorer in Kobe, but they can already get that from Parker and Ginobili. Most important is the hit team chemistry takes. (See Boston losing Kendrick Perkins last year for a reminder). No more Duncan is just that, no more Duncan. And his replacement plays a different position; this part seems to also prove how hard it is to determine who is the greater player. I would have been very hard for the Spurs to win as many games as they have since, let alone two titles.

For the Lakers, this is also devastating. First Shaq goes, now Kobe? True Tim is a great replacement, but not for both! Kobe was able to score a lot of points simply because no one else could or should be trusted. Now, pressure is on Tim to fill that role, and that isn't his game. Odom isn't a legit second option, so this Lakers team is not going to score many points. This Lakers team will feel beaten when they come onto the court.

Hope you liked my points above.

[joshdaboss]

I believe both the Spurs and the Lakers would be worse off. However, there is one glaring flaw in this debate which seems to prove this. You don't just replace them with each other and assume what would happen. The only way to do this is if a trade had been made, straight up, Tim for Kobe.

Now, what does this trade mean for these franchises?

For the Spurs, they suddenly lose a lot of size and defensive intensity. True, they have a quick scorer in Kobe, but they can already get that from Parker and Ginobili. Most important is the hit team chemistry takes. (See Boston losing Kendrick Perkins last year for a reminder). No more Duncan is just that, no more Duncan. And his replacement plays a different position; this part seems to also prove how hard it is to determine who is the greater player. I would have been very hard for the Spurs to win as many games as they have since, let alone two titles.

For the Lakers, this is also devastating. First Shaq goes, now Kobe? True Tim is a great replacement, but not for both! Kobe was able to score a lot of points simply because no one else could or should be trusted. Now, pressure is on Tim to fill that role, and that isn't his game. Odom isn't a legit second option, so this Lakers team is not going to score many points. This Lakers team will feel beaten when they come onto the court.

Hope you liked my points above.

Lakers probably wouldn't win a ring with Tim, but they sure as hell wouldn't miss the playoffs. With a prime Tim Duncan? ROFL. Missing the playoffs is a joke. They'd just play at a turtle pace to make up for the lack of scoring. They would have 2 good defending big men in Duncan and Brown. Odom is a long and capable defender. Smush Parker is a good athlete that defends. Like I said, they wouldn't be able to score a lot but they'd be able to win games on defense. Kobe brings 0 defensive presence when he has to be the main scorer(AKA when he isn't Shaq's bitch). Tim dominates both ends, that's the difference.

[Killakobe81]

Ok I'll play just this one time.

If Kobe shares the ball and learns how to play within the system instead of trying to be the savior in spite of the system, the team very well could have done much better.

Kobe's scoring numbers mean little more than Iverson's. Iverson won a few scoring titles. Like Iverson, Kobe is a volume shooter and the team has to live with the fact that he's going to shoot even at times when others are open. He's going to keep his team out of sync if that gets him more looks. He likes to win if it means he gets the glory, but he seems to prefer loss over sacrificing the number of shots he takes.

Kobe used those years to pad his scoring. Once he realized he had no real big underneath to get him another ring, he said "fuck it" and just got his.

When you have Shaq bitching about not getting touches, you got a problem, especially when Shaq was unstoppable once he got the ball in the paint.

If Kobe finds a way to appease Shaq's need for attention, the Lakers win 5 in a row easily.

No they would not. MJ could not win 5 in a row ...a team led by shaq even with Kobe at his side is not winning 5 in a row. Maybe 5 out of 8 or even 7, maybe.

[MR.SILVER&BLack]

No they would not. MJ could not win 5 in a row ...a team led by shaq even with Kobe at his side is not winning 5 in a row. Maybe 5 out of 8 or even 7, maybe.

how do you know that? he took a 2 years off then came back and had another 3 peat. sounds like he could have gone for 5 or 6 in a row.

[ambchang]

Take it for what it's worth. I am taking the two players' respective teams in those periods, and how they did with and without said player.

This is ignoring things like the competition, whether the teams were tanking, resting up starters at end of season, etc ....

2005 gave the best indication, as both players missed a decent number of games.

In 2005, Duncan and Kobe both missed 16 games.

The Spurs went 9-7 (or .56) without Duncan, but 50-16 (.76) with him.
The Lakers went 6-10 (or .38) w/o Kobe, but 28-38 (.42) with him.

As you can see, the difference is much greater without Duncan than with him, and it's always said that going from a bad team to a medriocre team is much easier from going from a mediocre team to a good team.

Add in the fact that Rudy Tomjonavich was the Laker coach that year, and he is a one trick pony of running an inside out offense, it is not a total stretch to say that the Lakers would have been better off with Duncan instead of Kobe.

For 06 and 07, both players missed a total of 4 games, and they are pretty meaningless.

[z0sa]

Kobe, Odom and a bunch of no-names: lottery

Duncan, an old-ass DRob and a bunch of no-names: 2003 NBA title

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe, Odom and a bunch of no-names: lottery

Duncan, an old-ass DRob and a bunch of no-names: 2003 NBA title

Bruce Bowen
Manu Ginobili (age 25, NBA rookie, but played years of overseas)
Stephen Jackson
Tony Parker
good 3pt shooters

[z0sa]

BB in 2003: no name
MG in 2003: no name
SJax in 2003: no name who only played because of an injury to Smith
TP in 2003: no name who got benched for speedy claxton

I can't believe you didn't mention old Stevie Kerr, he was one who I was surely expecting in response.

[Deuce Bigalow]

BB in 2003: no name
MG in 2003: no name
SJax in 2003: no name who only played because of an injury to Smith
TP in 2003: no name who got benched for speedy claxton

I can't believe you didn't mention old Stevie Kerr, he was one who I was surely expecting in response.

lol duncan averaged 25/15/5 in the playoffs, its not like he averaged 30+, he didnt do everything
enough with shit :lol

[z0sa]

:) let me see if you can find the last player who averaged 24.7PPG/15.4reb/5.3ast/3.3blk or better in a title-winning playoffs.

[Deuce Bigalow]

hows it better than

Jordans 31/6/8, 35/6/6, 35/7/6 in 91-93
31/5/4, 31/8/5, 32/5/4 in 96-98

Shaq's 31/15/3, 30/15/3 in 00-01

Kobe's 30/5/6 and 29/7/6 in 09 and 01

[z0sa]

hows it better than

Jordans 31/6/8, 35/6/6, 35/7/6 in 91-93
31/5/4, 31/8/5, 32/5/4 in 96-98

Shaq's 31/15/3, 30/15/3 in 00-01

Kobe 30/5/6 and 29/7/6 in 09 and 01

:lmao

At least you're one of the few Lakerfans who agree with the popular consensus that Shaq was by far the most dominant Laker 00-02

Jordan's and Kobe's statlines are comparable to 03 Tim's (Tim beats Kobe soundly though IMHO); Kobe's teammates aren't

[Deuce Bigalow]

:lmao

At least you're one of the few Lakerfans who agree Shaq was by far the most dominant Laker 00-02

Jordan's and Kobe's statlines are comparable to 03 Tim's (Tim beats Kobe soundly though IMHO); Kobe's teammates aren't

the thing is that stat-wise, thats his only great title run
post his other numbers for the other years

[z0sa]

All that matters in this thread is that you agree that he is much more capable than Kobe at being the best player on a fringe talent team.

[Deuce Bigalow]

All that matters in this thread is that you agree that he is much more capable than Kobe at being the best player on a fringe talent team.

no, i never said that and its not true
duncan has always had a good team around him

and if you replace kobe with duncan, the 05-07 lakers would not be better

[Deuce Bigalow]

1999 Playoffs
23/12/3

2005 Playoffs
24/12/3 (46 FG%)

2007 Playoffs
22/12/3

anyways, those are the other numbers, not really that great

[z0sa]

duncan has always had a good team around him

... like I said before. 2003 Duncan won it ALL with a bunch of no name players while posting sick stats.

2005 Kobe, on the other hand, won nothing while posting some sick stats.

I don't see what else there is to argue. There's even the evidence that Tim would have been much more easy to coach than Kobe (if you need evidence for that, rofl) because of Tomjanovic's style.

[Deuce Bigalow]

... like I said before. 2003 Duncan won it ALL with a bunch of no name players while posting sick stats.

2005 Kobe, on the other hand, won nothing while posting some sick stats.

I don't see what else there is to argue.

wait did you just mean that both supporting casts were even close to as good
:lmao

[z0sa]

Yeah, i know it's pretty sad that Kobe had Odom and couldn't make the playoffs.

[Deuce Bigalow]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2005.html

kobe missed 16 games, 2nd best player odom missed 18 games
the rest was as horrible as you can get

[z0sa]

... and when they were fine and healthy, they could barely make the first round.

Damn, Kobe alone only pulled the first round. It's no wonder some people think he's overrated.

[Deuce Bigalow]

... and when they were fine and healthy, they could barely make the first round. Not a huge difference.

lol are you a dumb*ss?
tell me the players 3-15, list them

[Deuce Bigalow]

If you replace Kobe with Duncan on those 2005-07 Lakers that they would get the 4th seed and make it out of the first round

stats from that season fromm both players

2004-05
Kobe - 27.6 PPG, 5.9 RPG, 6.0 APG
Duncan - 20.3 PPG, 11.3 RPG, 2.7 APG

2005-06
Kobe - 35.4 PPG, 5.3 RPG, 4.5 APG
Duncan - 18.6 PPG, 11.0 RPG, 3.2 APG

2006-07
Kobe - 31.6 PPG, 5.7 RPG, 5.4 APG
Duncan - 20.0 PPG, 10.6 PPG, 3.4 APG

for those 3 years
steals, kobe averaged 1.5, Duncan 0.8
blocks, Kobe averaged 0.6, Duncan 2.3

so If you replaced Kobe with Duncan, would the Lakers be better?

this is the OP, lol duncan fans

[z0sa]

3-15: no names in 2005
same as Tim's 3-15, disregarding old Kerr and injured, old SS.

[z0sa]

i have a feeling deuce is about to give this thread the deuce.

[Deuce Bigalow]

3-15: no names in 2005
same as Tim's 3-15, disregarding Kerr and injured, old SS.

http://www.donkdown.com/forum/images/smilies/facepalm5.gif

[z0sa]

I always laugh at people who try to make rookie Manu, filling-in-an-injury young malcontent working for a contract Sjax, and second year, benched for Claxton Parker out as the players they were years later.

It doesn't surprise me that a post-Gasol lakerfan is the latest one trying to do this.

[Deuce Bigalow]

I always laugh at people who try to make rookie Manu, filling-in-an-injury young malcontent Sjax, and second year, benched for Claxton Parker out as the players they were years later.

Manu



Lega A (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lega_Basket_Serie_A) (Italy) MVP (2001)
Euroleague Final Four MVP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euroleague_Final_Four_MVP) (2001)
FIBA Americas Championship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIBA_Americas_Championship_2001) MVP (2001)
All-Euroleague First Team (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-Euroleague_Teams) (2002 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euroleague_2001%E2%80%9302))
Italian Cup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coppa_Italia_di_pallacanestro_maschile) MVP (2002)
Lega A MVP (2002)
FIBA World Championship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIBA_World_Championship) All-Tournament Team (2002 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_FIBA_World_Championship))

he won the championship and MVP in Europe before, he was already experienced, age 25 in 2002-03 season

[daslicer]

The 01-02 Spurs to me shows how great of a player Duncan once was. The second leading scorer on that team was David Robinson at 12 points a game. That team was poor offensively at which they only averaged around 96 points a game but still managed to win 58 games. I doubt if you put Kobe on that team they crack even 50 wins but more so a 40 win team at best. Kobe's 04-'05 lakers had more scorers then Duncans '01-'02 Spurs but still sucked major dick record wise at a measly 34 wins.

Here are both teams statistics. Duncan's '02 spurs http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2002.html

Kobe's '05 Lakers http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2005.html

[z0sa]

Dude, Manu was experienced at the far lower than NCAA scrub Euro levels?!?! Nevermind, I give up.

[Deuce Bigalow]

2001-02 Duncan - 26/13/4
2004-05 Kobe - 28/6/6

and this was an injured kobe, how was duncan better?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Dude, Manu was experienced at the far lower than NCAA scrub Euro levels?!?! Nevermind, I give up.

oh yeah i forgot, he won it by himself with a bunch of scrubs

[z0sa]

2001-02 Duncan - 26/13/4
2004-05 Kobe - 28/6/6

and this was an injured kobe, how was duncan better?

As if it was really a debate.. Duncan's line is clearly better. Rebounds>assists even when they're the same number.

Post FG% and games played so we can laugh at you some more.

[Deuce Bigalow]

As if it was really a debate.. Duncan's line is clearly better. Rebounds>assists even when they're the same number.

Post FG% and games played so we can laugh at you some more.

kobes has 2.1 more PPG, and 2.3 more APG,
fg%, lol duncan is a post player, kobes a perimeter player

[z0sa]

kobes has 2.1 more PPG, and 2.3 more APG,

Which +7 rebounds a game and a much higher efficiency scoring shits on.


fg%, lol duncan is a post player, kobes a perimeter player

???? and?

[Deuce Bigalow]

ill take more points and assists than rebounds

[z0sa]

You'll take 2.1 more PPG, 2.3 more APG, and 8%+ less FGM with more FGA over 7 rebounds because you're a kobefan. It's okay to be a homer bro.

[Deuce Bigalow]

You'll take 2.1 more PPG, 2.3 more APG, and 8%+ less FGM with more FGA over 7 rebounds because you're a kobefan. It's okay to be a homer bro.

points and assists are 2 categories, rebounds is 1
simple

[z0sa]

You need a rebound before you can get a point or an assist.
simple

[Deuce Bigalow]

You need a rebound before you can get a point or an assist.
simple

or after a made basket, lol

[cantthinkofanything]

points and assists are 2 categories, rebounds is 1
simple

Brazil is bigger than Portugal.

[z0sa]

or after a made basket, lol

lol you think kobe gets rebounds off his makes or what?

let's add up: 05 kobe assists 2 more baskets, makes 1 more than 02 Tim.

Tim Duncan assures at least 5 more baskets aren't makes (defensive rebounds), while also assuring a possession; and, Tim gives a chance for 2 more baskets (offensive rebounds).

(5/2 numbers calculated going off the fact approximately 1/3 of Tim's defensive rebound total for '02 was his offensive rebound total)


Pat Riley never told his Lakers, "No assists, no rings."

[Stalin]

Only a retard/lakerfan would take kobe over duncan.
Dominant bigs like, hakeem, shaq, duncan, are far mor valuable than chucking sgs like kobe, tmak, iverson. They give you easy baskets in the post and provide defence and rebounding on the other end. Thats why these post players can be surrounded by scrubs and still win championships.

[MR.SILVER&BLack]

lol duncan averaged 25/15/5 in the playoffs, its not like he averaged 30+, he didnt do everything
enough with shit :lol

lol there are those stats again.then again you go back to ppg. is that your only argument ever? funny how tds finals perofmance in game 6 in 03 is considered top 5 performance ever. lol your low BB IQ never seizes to amaze me.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Only a retard/lakerfan would take kobe over duncan.
Dominant bigs like, hakeem, shaq, duncan, are far mor valuable than chucking sgs like kobe, tmak, iverson. They give you easy baskets in the post and provide defence and rebounding on the other end. Thats why these post players can be surrounded by scrubs and still win championships.

fail

[MR.SILVER&BLack]

fail

hakeem had no other star. td won without a 2nd option. its a fail because kobe couldnt do? :lol

this is when you try and make gasol look like hes a scrub with your "stats" to try and make kobe look better than he really is.

[ambchang]

I did a simple analysis of the value of Shaq and Duncan through two comparible teams a while back.

The first is looking at Shaq's and Duncan's performance through the Nets. Shaq played the Nets in the 2002 finals, and Duncan did so in the 2003 finals. The 02 and 03 Nets teams were essentially the same, with minimal difference.
http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132810

The second analysis is to look at the two players through the Pistons. Shaq played the Pistons in the 04 finals, and Duncan did so in the 05 finals. The 04 Pistons, could be argued, was slightly better than the 05 Pistons, but the frontline was essentially the same.
http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133031

Both players were at or close to their prime (Shaq was at prime 02, slightly past prime 04, Duncan was at prime 03, slightly past prime, and with injuries to both ankles, in 05).

Basically, Shaq and Duncan are very similar in production against both teams when pace is factored in. It's hard for people to perceive this, but Duncan has always played on one of the most defensive minded teams in the league, that is deliberate in their pace by taking time to set up the offense. People look at absolute PPGs and think that one player is a better scorer than the other, and in many cases, it is simply not true.

Look at a guy like Rodman. As much as I dislike him, I have to admit that he is, without a question, the best rebounder in the history of the league, and yet, there are 22 players who grabbed more rebounds did in their careers, and 10 with a higher average. It simply a case where Rodman played in a different era than those 10 players with a higher rebounding average, when rebounds were more avaialble.

People who simply look into scoring average as some sort of vindication that Player A > Player B is just simply showing an overall ignorance to the game. Was Pierce and T-Mac better than Duncan in the 01-02 season because they averaged more points? Only an idiot would think that.

To top if off, ignoring important factors such as pace shows further ignorance and general misunderstanding of the game.

It is sad, really.

[Killakobe81]

how do you know that? he took a 2 years off then came back and had another 3 peat. sounds like he could have gone for 5 or 6 in a row.

No one knows... but let's see. Mj's dad dies. He was incredibly drained after the 3 peat, they lost Horace Grant, and Olajawon went HAM on the NBA. Of course i cant say that it is impossible he wins 5 straight but since that has not been done since what the 60's? ... I feel pretty comfotable arguing that the odds were aginst MJ and even Shaq/Kobe even if they were not fighting like two bitches.

As lazy as shaq got after the first ring let alone after 3 ... if the Lakers had not jettisoned him, it's very possible that as constructed at the time the Lakers would of been stuck at 3 titles ...Only way Lakers would of won more if both men checked their egos and neither did.

BTW, Which of the Spurs titles do you see the Lakers taking if they stayed together? Maybe Lakers squeak out a title the year the heat won because the league was weak that year ...but spurs were better than the aging Lakers core.

[Killakobe81]

AND LOL at the continued clinging of the duncan>Kobe debate. that was settled 2 years ago. and in fact the past two seasons just makes the pro duncan's case worse.

If you argue who would you choose if both players are in a NBA draft, of course it's duncan. GM's almost always draft big over small. and duncan was one of the best college bigs of the past 20 years. so that argument is foolish.

If you ask who has been the more consistently great Finals performer? Again that is duncan. Kobe has been great and awful in the Finals sometimes in the same series.

IF you want a quiet, unassuming superstar who doesnt shoot too much at times than duncan is your man.

But just talking "ball" ...at this point, hard to argue that duncan is a greater overall player in league history, or that he has had a greater career than Kobe. Kobe bryant has been to the finals 7 times winning 5. He has dominated the head to head playoff matchups both in the win column as well as in dominant performances. Don't get me wrong, Duncan has killed the Lakers at times as well. and in fact, even after the Lakers beat the Spurs in 2008 I did not put Kobe over Duncan until 2009. Last year just further cemented Kobe's status as the greater player ... where he no longer is the best but the fact that he is still a top 5-10 player and Duncan is probably 20-25 right now. Each season that Kobe puts up as top 10 player tightens his grip on the best player since Mj title.

Of course both shaq and duncan have strong cases in that argument as well. ESPECIALLY Timmy, because his play did not slip as fast as Shaq's ...he won faster and he did not have Kobe or shaq on his side.

But pretending that the past 4 seasons hasnt swayed the argument in his favor is silly. Many of yall are still lving in 2003-2005 when Duncan was the NBA's best player ...that was a long time ago. If we had this debate then i would be on your side. Now? Come on ...

[Stalin]

You are quite generous is saying Duncan is a top 25 player. I don't have him in the top 40. The only reason he made the all-star game was do to sympathy. The guy has fallen off the face of the earth faster than any player I've seen in a while.

shouldn't you be watching naruto and being bitter about your small penis?

[Deuce Bigalow]

You are quite generous is saying Duncan is a top 25 player. I don't have him in the top 40. The only reason he made the all-star game was do to sympathy. The guy has fallen off the face of the earth faster than any player I've seen in a while.

woah wtf, Duncan is top 10 alltime

[BoricuaCJA]

woah wtf, Duncan is top 10 alltime
I think he just meant this past season. If not, then he is just doing his terrible trolling like he always does.

[Deuce Bigalow]

I think he just meant this past season. If not, then he is just doing his terrible trolling like he always does.

oh ok lol

[Lincoln]

Deuce you say that Kobe shoots a shitty percentage and inefficiently because he is a perimeter player but tbh I don't see dat nigga dirk shooting like shit quite as often.

Kobe got odom pau and Bynum that the defense has to worry about as well so shouldn't he shoot a higher per stage than dirk? Dirks got Terry and Marion lmao

I know this is a kobe vs Duncan thread but I just wanted to see your reasoning imho

[Deuce Bigalow]

Deuce you say that Kobe shoots a shitty percentage and inefficiently because he is a perimeter player but tbh I don't see dat nigga dirk shooting like shit quite as often.

Kobe got odom pau and Bynum that the defense has to worry about as well so shouldn't he shoot a higher per stage than dirk? Dirks got Terry and Marion lmao

I know this is a kobe vs Duncan thread but I just wanted to see your reasoning imho

45-46% is not shitty for a SG, i never said that lol

45-46% is good for a shooting guard

[Narutoluva]

lol kobe 41%fg in the finals

[Deuce Bigalow]

lol kobe 41%fg in the finals

lol at Duncan 41.9% fg and 44.6% fg in the 05 and 07 Finals
whats a 7foot C/PF doing shooting under 45?

[Nathan89]

Spurs beat the Pistons. Do you know who didn't?

[Narutoluva]

lol at Duncan 41.9% fg and 44.6% fg in the 05 and 07 Finals
whats a 7foot C/PF doing shooting under 45?

nice try cherry picking, but duncan's career finals fg is 49%, as the number one option, on the biggest stage

kobe is 41% as sidekick to shaq/gasol

[Deuce Bigalow]

nice try cherry picking, but duncan's career finals fg is 49%, as the number one option, on the biggest stage

kobe is 41% as sidekick to shaq/gasol

duncan's career finals fg% is 47% (188 / 400)
not really good for a 7FT C/PF
and kobe was a sidekick to gasol? lol you have no credibility

[LkrFan]

Spurs beat the Pistons. Do you know who didn't?

Lakers always beat the Suns down in the playoffs. Do you know who didn't? :downspin:

[ambchang]

Lakers always beat the Suns down in the playoffs. Do you know who didn't? :downspin:

Ummm .... Since when did you become a Laker fan?

[z0sa]

Ummm .... Since when did you become a Laker fan?

Always assume post-Gasol.