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View Full Version : American Idiocracy: The cost of the tea party revolution



RandomGuy
08-12-2011, 05:12 PM
THE great Calvin Coolidge reputedly said that “the business of America is business.” These days the business of America is carpet-chewing rage. American politicians are intent, not on improving their country’s competitiveness, but on gouging each other’s eyes out.

Businesspeople still enjoy huge advantages from being in America. Business is part of its DNA in much the same way that la dolce vita is part of Italy’s. America has a disproportionate number of the world’s most innovative businesses, from greybeards such as 3M to toddlers such as Salesforce.com. And Americans are to management what Brazilians are to soccer. After studying 10,000 firms in 20 countries, Nicholas Bloom of Stanford University and three other academics concluded that American firms are the world’s best managed, with German, Japanese and Swedish firms a short way behind and Chinese and Indian ones trailing badly.

Yet America’s politicians are intent on squandering this painfully accumulated capital. As it revoked America’s triple-A credit rating on August 5th, Standard & Poor’s explained that the gulf between the political parties was becoming unbridgeable, and that policymaking was becoming unpredictable. Other sober institutions concur. The World Economic Forum has downgraded America from second place in 2009 to fourth place in 2010 in its annual global competitiveness rankings. By the forum’s reckoning, America comes a lowly 40th for the quality of its institutions, 54th for trust in its politicians, 68th for government waste and a dismal 87th for its macroeconomic environment. The World Bank sees a relentless decline in various indicators of American governance. Daniel Kaufmann of the Brookings Institution notes that last year 33% of American business leaders told pollsters that a big constraint was the “instability of the policy framework”. The figure for France was 14%; for Chile, 5%.

Optimists argue that S&P’s decision may act as a wake-up call. Yet in Washington it is being treated as another battle cry, with Republicans raging about “the Obama downgrade” and Democrats railing against “tea-party terrorists”. The roots of America’s current polarisation are distressingly deep. The parties have reorganised themselves along ideological lines, as white conservatives have abandoned the Democrats and northern liberals the Republicans. The ideological factions have built mighty propaganda machines stretching from Washington think-tanks to the studios of Fox and MSNBC. And ideologues have resorted to previously taboo weapons, such as the threat of default.

This ideological civil war has led to the marginalisation of corporate America. In the Republican Party country-club types have been elbowed aside by Rush Limbaugh listeners. In the Democratic Party the business-friendly centrists who flourished under Bill Clinton have been sidelined by Ivy League intellectuals and trade-union and minority activists. Granted, Mitt Romney, the front-runner for the Republican presidential nomination, looks like a made-for-television business candidate: a Harvard Business School graduate and Bain consultant who helped to create successful companies such as Home Depot. But on the campaign trail he has devoted more effort to wooing Mr Limbaugh’s legions than to crafting businesslike solutions for America.

The civil war is creating two obvious problems for American business: paralysis and uncertainty. The Obama administration is still pockmarked with vacancies because Congress refuses to approve routine appointments. Important trade deals have been languishing for months. The Republicans are fighting a war of attrition against Barack Obama’s health-care reforms and his new Consumer Financial Protection Bureau.

All this has immediate consequences for business. The federal government not only runs basic services such as the Federal Aviation Authority (where thousands of workers were briefly laid off because Congress refused to renew the FAA’s authority). It also accounts for a quarter of the economy. Scott Davis, the boss of UPS, the world’s largest package-delivery company, recently complained that FAA funding disputes made him unsure how many of his aeroplanes to fit with new air-traffic-control gear, while the failure to ratify a trade pact with South Korea weakened the case for expanding his fleet of aircraft and lorries.

The direst consequences of all this lie in the future, however. America’s health-care system consumes a sixth of GDP but produces only mediocre results. America’s schools produce run-of-the-mill results despite generous funding. The immigration system leaves 11m people in the shadows and condemns many of the brightest graduates of American universities to years of grovelling before bureaucrats if they want to stay in America. Many give up and take their skills back to India or China.

Bring back Silent Cal

American companies are sitting on a gigantic pile of cash; Apple alone has $76 billion in the bank. Why won’t corporate America invest in America? It does not help that domestic demand is feeble, and that the global economy is in turmoil. But American politicians deserve some of the blame. Their unpredictability erodes confidence. The gulf between American business and the Obama White House is growing ever wider, as business-friendly insiders (such as Larry Summers, an economic adviser) leave the administration. Even more dangerously, the gulf between business and the rest of the country is widening: opinion polls show that American businesspeople are losing faith in their country even as ordinary Americans are losing faith in business. Calvin Coolidge’s statement was once denounced as the height of bourgeois complacency. Today it sounds like a reminder of an America that is in danger of disappearing.

http://www.economist.com/node/21525839
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It is this regulatory uncertainty that is forcing American businesses to postpone investments.

The Limbaugh crowd wants to blame "socialist policies", but that matter less than the thought that you might, like the lightbulb companies, put money into meeting a standard, only to have Republicans come along and change the regulations.

This article tries to be even-handed, but you don't see a nation-wide leftist movement with any parallel to the tea party.

The move to the right has some rather serious consequences.

Uncertainty about health care reforms, i.e. whether they might be repealed, is costing far more than the reforms ever would, and I can say that from first-hand observation of the health insurance industry.

boutons_deux
08-12-2011, 05:18 PM
"move to the right has some rather serious consequences."

.... and ALL are negative.

Can anybody name any positives?

Any positives from 8 years of Repug Reign of Error?
h
The Repugs botching up CFPA, health care, threatening to screan "Barry lost Iraq and Afghanistan" if he goes coitus interrptus, is simply to deny Barry any victories, no matter how muc it costs the country, about which the Repugs don't a Yoni ratshit.

DarrinS
08-12-2011, 07:05 PM
Lol "move to the right"

The US is a center-right country.

If you want to see what leftist policies do to an economy, look no further than the great state of California.

baseline bum
08-12-2011, 07:58 PM
Lol "move to the right"

The US is a center-right country.

If you want to see what leftist policies do to an economy, look no further than the great state of California.

You forgot about the conservative lassiez-faire policies in DC that created the huge housing bubble that has wrecked the state.

ElNono
08-12-2011, 08:02 PM
If you want to see what rightist policies do to an economy, look no further than the great US of A.

DarrinS
08-12-2011, 08:09 PM
You forgot about the conservative lassiez-faire policies in DC that created the huge housing bubble that has wrecked the state.

Fail

_MGT_cSi7Rs

baseline bum
08-12-2011, 08:10 PM
California is really a perfect storm: dicked by both the left and the right.

baseline bum
08-12-2011, 08:11 PM
You're right Darrin; your post was full of fail. Thanks for the warning.

DarrinS
08-12-2011, 08:11 PM
California is really a perfect storm: dicked by both the left and the right.

???

Ignignokt
08-12-2011, 09:22 PM
If you want to see what rightist policies do to an economy, look no further than the great US of A.

Silly. America is half controls half laissez faire. It's pragmatic, not right wing.

Ignignokt
08-12-2011, 09:22 PM
You're right Darrin; your post was full of fail. Thanks for the warning.

Oh yeah, cuz they had a superhero tv gov, right wing affliction!! You're such a dumbass.

Ignignokt
08-12-2011, 09:23 PM
You forgot about the conservative lassiez-faire policies in DC that created the huge housing bubble that has wrecked the state.

Lassiez faire is not about controlling interest rates and having govt agencies rate bonds, pick winners and losers.

ElNono
08-12-2011, 09:24 PM
Silly. America is half controls half laissez faire. It's pragmatic, not right wing.

I agree the problem is on both sides. I also agree the solution will have to come from both sides.

Ignignokt
08-12-2011, 09:25 PM
I agree the problem is on both sides. I also agree the solution will have to come from both sides.

that makes no sense. Both sides will have to fix the economy, but it's not capitalism at fault.

ElNono
08-12-2011, 09:28 PM
that makes no sense. Both sides will have to fix the economy, but it's not capitalism at fault.

Sure it makes sense. When both sides wanted to work together and start doing something about it, they did it (Clinton days). It wasn't all rosy, but they put differences aside and trimmed what they needed to trim, and raised what they needed to raise to get to a balanced budget. A good start.

It's going to have to happen the same way to start getting out of this mess. If they're not talking to eachother, nothing is going to get done.

DarrinS
08-12-2011, 09:29 PM
The "extreme" position of the tea party is smaller government and responsible spending. Heaven forbid.

There's actually a strong faction in the Tea Party that wants cuts to defense. I predict that is the next battle.

ElNono
08-12-2011, 09:33 PM
The "extreme" position of the tea party is smaller government and responsible spending. Heaven forbid.

How's that going to create jobs?


There's actually a strong faction in the Tea Party that wants cuts to defense. I predict that is the next battle.

Definitely not Paul Ryan...

ElNono
08-12-2011, 09:34 PM
Wanting the country to default on it's debt is actually pretty 'extreme'

DarrinS
08-12-2011, 09:35 PM
Sure it makes sense. When both sides wanted to work together and start doing something about it, they did it (Clinton days). It wasn't all rosy, but they put differences aside and trimmed what they needed to trim, and raised what they needed to raise to get to a balanced budget. A good start.

It's going to have to happen the same way to start getting out of this mess. If they're not talking to eachother, nothing is going to get done.

Do yo recall the composition of govt during this time period?

ElNono
08-12-2011, 09:36 PM
Do yo recall the composition of govt during this time period?

Yes. Democratic president, Conservative Congress. That's exactly what I'm talking about.

DarrinS
08-12-2011, 09:37 PM
Wanting the country to default on it's debt is actually pretty 'extreme'

It is extreme, if you really think that's what they wanted.

ElNono
08-12-2011, 09:38 PM
It is extreme, if you really think that's what they wanted.

What do you think they wanted?

DarrinS
08-12-2011, 09:41 PM
The Tea Party basically acknowledges that our govt is like a crack addict and their drug of choice is spending. The addict will never get better if they are "enabled" and they will never get better without a little bit of withdrawal pains.

ElNono
08-12-2011, 09:44 PM
The Tea Party basically acknowledges that our govt is like a crack addict and their drug of choice is spending. The addict will never get better if they are "enabled" and they will never get better without a little bit of withdrawal pains.

So they bitched, made clear that the US might eventually default because they're 'extreme', then helped pass the crack...

Not only that, but they condoned deficit spending by extending the tax cuts.

The problem with the Tea Party is that they're full of shit just as much as the rest of them.

DarrinS
08-12-2011, 09:45 PM
What do you think they wanted?

They wanted to change the national conversation and they succeeded. The deficit cannot continue to be the 300 lb gorilla in the room.

ElNono
08-12-2011, 09:47 PM
They wanted to change the national conversation and they succeeded. The deficit cannot continue to be the 300 lb gorilla in the room.

The conversation is about the economy. How are those cuts going to create jobs?

DarrinS
08-12-2011, 09:51 PM
So they bitched, made clear that the US might eventually default because they're 'extreme', then helped pass the crack...

Not only that, but they condoned deficit spending by extending the tax cuts.

The problem with the Tea Party is that they're full of shit just as much as the rest of them.

I'm for raising taxes when we get out of the weeds. I'm also for cutting defense. Is it not legitimate to question the absolute shitload of spending that the remaining taxpayers pay and what "shovelready" projects that money is used for? That is an extreme position? Really?

ElNono
08-12-2011, 10:09 PM
I'm for raising taxes when we get out of the weeds. I'm also for cutting defense. Is it not legitimate to question the absolute shitload of spending that the remaining taxpayers pay and what "shovelready" projects that money is used for? That is an extreme position? Really?

Sure it's legitimate. The problem is when you bitch about the ever growing deficit then vote to extend deficit spending.

There is no 'out of the weeds' with just spending cuts. Doesn't happen and doesn't exist. Heck, the guys at the very very top haven't been 'in the weeds' to begin with, but they pay less in taxes on their dividends than you or I do for breaking our backs.

If you want to talk about meaningful reform, let's start talking about closing loopholes, and stopping trillions in taxes from sitting overseas.

Ryan wants to reduce spending by cutting more taxes and not touching defense spending. That's not serious.

DarrinS
08-12-2011, 10:28 PM
Sure it's legitimate. The problem is when you bitch about the ever growing deficit then vote to extend deficit spending.

There is no 'out of the weeds' with just spending cuts. Doesn't happen and doesn't exist. Heck, the guys at the very very top haven't been 'in the weeds' to begin with, but they pay less in taxes on their dividends than you or I do for breaking our backs.

If you want to talk about meaningful reform, let's start talking about closing loopholes, and stopping trillions in taxes from sitting overseas.

Ryan wants to reduce spending by cutting more taxes and not touching defense spending. That's not serious.


While I may agree with the sentiment, I don't agree with the figures. I'm starting to wonder if people really know what "trillion" means.

Our govt spends 10 billion per day! So, a trillion currently pays our bills for 100 days. That's fucking insane.

DarrinS
08-12-2011, 10:34 PM
So, our operating costs are about $32 dollars/day for every man/woman/child in the US. Anyone think that's a little high? Anyone want to calculate what that is per month per person? It's fucking crazy.

ElNono
08-12-2011, 10:47 PM
While I may agree with the sentiment, I don't agree with the figures. I'm starting to wonder if people really know what "trillion" means.

Our govt spends 10 billion per day! So, a trillion currently pays our bills for 100 days. That's fucking insane.

It has to be said that you also need to account for inflation to that. What you could buy with $500 billion in 1980 will cost you $1.3 trillion today. That's why comparing spending from different eras, unless you account for inflation, it's not really useful.

The FIRST step you need to stop deficit spending is balance the budget. It will not stop it entirely because you'll still have intra-government debt from trust funds which also will need reforms, and won't probably kick in right away. So it's something that will take some time, and it will take a lot of serious reforms, spending cuts and more revenue.

As it is right now, neither side will be tackling this though. They're too concerned with the next election or how they're politically perceived.

baseline bum
08-12-2011, 10:51 PM
Oh yeah, cuz they had a superhero tv gov, right wing affliction!! You're such a dumbass.


With all that anger you must have never gotten laid; not even by your priest.

ElNono
08-12-2011, 10:53 PM
So, our operating costs are about $32 dollars/day for every man/woman/child in the US. Anyone think that's a little high? Anyone want to calculate what that is per month per person? It's fucking crazy.

It's not just the spending. We're also using borrowed money to pay for that, so you have to tack in interest.

DarrinS
08-12-2011, 10:53 PM
Call me crazy, but I think over $900/month for every person in America is excessive. That's like two very high-end car payments. If I'm wrong, please tell me. I hope I'm wrong, because that amount is batshit crazy.

ElNono
08-12-2011, 11:11 PM
Call me crazy, but I think over $900/month for every person in America is excessive. That's like two very high-end car payments. If I'm wrong, please tell me. I hope I'm wrong, because that amount is batshit crazy.

I don't think wasteful spending isn't acknowledged by both sides. I think the problem is agreeing in what needs to be cut and where the money to balance things is going to come from.

Viva Las Espuelas
08-13-2011, 10:43 AM
Yes. Democratic president, Conservative Congress. That's exactly what I'm talking about.

What were you exactly saying when it was a democratic congress his first two year???. Was the gorilla not obvious then? You must've been extremely irked that nothing happened then.

ElNono
08-13-2011, 11:56 AM
What were you exactly saying when it was a democratic congress his first two year???. Was the gorilla not obvious then? You must've been extremely irked that nothing happened then.

It does normally irk me when nothing happens. You can go back and look at my posts for the last congressional elections and I wanted the GOP to win both chambers if possible. Rarely, if ever, stuff that makes sense gets done when you only have one side governing.

boutons_deux
08-13-2011, 12:08 PM
Polls used to say 26% of people belonged to, or sympathized with tea baggers.

After the tea baggers' false crisis of the debt ceiling debacle, the number is down to still ignorant, duped 18%.

Still, every single, gutless, intimidated Repug wannbe-Prez said they would, tea bagger style, reject $10 in cuts if matched with just $1 in tax increases.

Winehole23
08-13-2011, 12:15 PM
lol not even by your priest

Agloco
08-13-2011, 02:12 PM
Call me crazy, but I think over $900/month for every person in America is excessive. That's like two very high-end car payments.

:lol More like one tbh.

Where did you get those figures?

DarrinS
08-13-2011, 02:24 PM
:lol More like one tbh.

Where did you get those figures?

The govt currently runs on 10 billion per day and there are roughly 310 million people in the US.

Agloco
08-13-2011, 02:43 PM
The govt currently runs on 10 billion per day.

How much of that pays federal wages?

boutons_deux
08-13-2011, 03:40 PM
Govt employee salaries didn't cause the federal debt, and didn't cause the Banksters' Great Depression.

Going after (unionized) federal employees is for people who are suckered by lies and propaganda spewed by VRWC govt-busting, employee-busting, union-busting strategy.

Going after federal employees is a VRWC distraction and smokescreen for the looting, pillaging of the USA by UCA and financial sector.

FuzzyLumpkins
08-13-2011, 03:44 PM
:lol More like one tbh.

Where did you get those figures?

Its a gross generalization unrepresentative of pretty much anything and extra special dumbed down for your reading pleasure.

DarrinS
08-13-2011, 04:09 PM
Govt employee salaries didn't cause the federal debt, and didn't cause the Banksters' Great Depression.

Going after (unionized) federal employees is for people are suckered by lies spewed by VRWC govt-busting, employee-busting, union-busting strategy.

Going after federal employees is a VRWC distraction and smokescreen for the looting, pillaging of the USA by UCA and financial sector.

I never said it did. The 10 billion per day is all our bills lumped together. A 3.7 trillion budget.

boutons_deux
08-13-2011, 04:23 PM
St Ronnie couldn't bust govt, dubya made is a LOT BIGGER, so why don't you worry about something a LOT closer to home, like health insurance for family of 4 hitting 20K+/year in a few years.

The Feds aren't in that loop at all.

It's strictly greedy health providers and insurers taking care of their mgmt and stockholders. aka the "costs of health care"

ElNono
08-13-2011, 04:45 PM
I never said it did. The 10 billion per day is all our bills lumped together. A 3.7 trillion budget.

A good chunk of that is interest payment. You can't really cut that.

FuzzyLumpkins
08-13-2011, 04:54 PM
A good chunk of that is interest payment. You can't really cut that.

Something in the neighborhood of 18% and that is not the only areas that are contractual obligations. For example, even for the most ardent isolationists there are facets of NATO that we just cannot just do away with without violating the treaty.

DarrinS
08-13-2011, 05:39 PM
A good chunk of that is interest payment. You can't really cut that.

You're really making me feel better about this. Maybe we can get a low interest consolidation loan.:lol

ElNono
08-13-2011, 05:48 PM
You're really making me feel better about this. Maybe we can get a low interest consolidation loan.:lol

It's not about feeling better or worse. If defaulting isn't an option, you have to honor your debts.

DarrinS
08-13-2011, 05:53 PM
It's not about feeling better or worse. If defaulting isn't an option, you have to honor your debts.

Given the scale of the problem, it's not going to go away without major lifestyle changes across the board. That is, unless we keep ignoring it and let future generations deal with it.

ElNono
08-13-2011, 08:03 PM
Given the scale of the problem, it's not going to go away without major lifestyle changes across the board. That is, unless we keep ignoring it and let future generations deal with it.

Future generations? Did you see the stock market last week?

Baby boomers didn't think twice. Don't see why this generation will be any different.

FuzzyLumpkins
08-13-2011, 08:05 PM
Given the scale of the problem, it's not going to go away without major lifestyle changes across the board. That is, unless we keep ignoring it and let future generations deal with it.

You sound like Dave Ramsey and his show. I mean literally. That you begin your thought process there shows quite a bit. Not in that you have accrued debt and had to go from there but rather that you have no idea of the issue and go from there.

What you are doing right now is just a microcosm of the old GOP and democratic debate from the end of WW2. I imagine your notion of lifestyle change is just a different way of saying cut social programs and you still just cannot get your mind around the notion of taxes.

You refuse to acknowledge it.

You just talk like Ramsey and then blame someone else over the children. Its pretty sad but at least you are good at being a tool for others.

2centsworth
08-13-2011, 10:33 PM
I like having liberals as well as true conservatives like
The tea party. It's the middle that messes everything
Up.

The luke warm dems screw things up for
Harden libs who have some of the best ideas
And luke warm reps screw things up for tea partiers
Who also have good ideas. I wish a lib
Like a Warren mosler (look him up)and ron Paul
Could hash things out.

I love this country. I wish we would respect each other
No matter how much we may disagree on policy.
In just as guilty as the next person, but we have
To change the way our government works or we run
The risk of losing our reserve currency status.

2centsworth
08-13-2011, 10:33 PM
I like having liberals as well as true conservatives like
The tea party. It's the middle that messes everything
Up.

The luke warm dems screw things up for
Harden libs who have some of the best ideas
And luke warm reps screw things up for tea partiers
Who also have good ideas. I wish a lib
Like a Warren mosler (look him up)and ron Paul
Could hash things out.

I love this country. I wish we would respect each other
No matter how much we may disagree on policy.
In just as guilty as the next person, but we have
To change the way our government works or we run
The risk of losing our reserve currency status.

DUNCANownsKOBE
08-13-2011, 11:15 PM
If you want to see what leftist policies do to an economy, look no further than the great state of California.
Yeah, the rightist deregulating of energy experiment did great things for the State of California, Enron was a real boon for their economy!

Wild Cobra
08-14-2011, 01:49 PM
How much of that pays federal wages?
Does it matter? That is flat out excessive. It's over $45,000 taxed annual from a family of 4 if everyone paid equal money in taxes.