US judges rule for teacher who called creationism 'superstitious nonsense'

[ElNono]

US judges rule for teacher who called creationism 'superstitious nonsense' (http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2011/0819/US-judges-rule-for-teacher-who-called-creationism-superstitious-nonsense)

:lol

[DarrinS]

Is this the same ninth circuit court that is routinely bitch-slapped by the supreme court?

[Spurminator]

Frivolous.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

i'm glad she wasn't bad mouthing any muslims.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

and what's exactly funny about it?

[TheProfessor]

Actually, the panel ruled that the teacher had qualified immunity, as there was no clearly established precedent on the subject to the contrary that would put the teacher on notice. It also noted that such comments may cross a constitutional line at some point. Maybe the Supreme Court will take it up and clarify. Seemed like a reasonable punt on the issue.

[DMC]

Creationism is superstitious nonsense.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Is this the same ninth circuit court that is routinely bitch-slapped by the supreme court?

Is it?

[ElNono]

Is this the same ninth circuit court that is routinely bitch-slapped by the supreme court?

Was that your kid?

[ElNono]

and what's exactly funny about it?

Using a 15 year old to push superstitious nonsense through the courts and getting denied?

[DMX7]

Darrin can't stand activist judges who proclaim superstitious nonsense 'superstitious nonsense'.

[ElNono]

i'm glad she wasn't bad mouthing any muslims.

Dr. James Corbett is a he, I think.

[Spurminator]

Christians are so persecuted in this country.

[DarrinS]

I wonder why kids from private religious schools always outperform kids from secular public schools?

[Blake]

US judges rule for teacher who called creationism 'superstitious nonsense' (http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2011/0819/US-judges-rule-for-teacher-who-called-creationism-superstitious-nonsense)

:lol

Thank god

[Blake]

I wonder why kids from private religious schools always outperform kids from secular public schools?

Probably because the parents pay tuition and have more incentive to be involved in that investment for starters

Why do you think they outperform public school kids?

[DarrinS]

Probably because the parents pay tuition and have more incentive to be involved in that investment for starters

Why do you think they outperform public school kids?

I don't know, but they do -- even in math and (gasp) science.

[DarrinS]

Do you guys cringe when Obama says "God bless America"? Just curious.

[baseline bum]

Do you guys cringe when Obama says "God bless America"? Just curious.

I cringe when Obama says anything.

[Blake]

I don't know, but they do -- even in math and (gasp) science.

just make your point so we can flame it already.

[Blake]

Do you guys cringe when Obama says "God bless America"? Just curious.

if he's just politicking or singing the song, no.

I would have a problem if he were to say "God will bless America if we attack Iran."

I do have a problem with "In God we Trust" on our money.

[DarrinS]

just make your point so we can flame it already.

Yes, you guys are flamers.

[DarrinS]

I do have a problem with "In God we Trust" on our money.

How sad. I hope you never had any ambition of becoming a Freemason.

[baseline bum]

Don't hold your breath ever waiting for Darrin to connect dots.

[Blake]

Yes, you guys are flamers.

loloololololol at the ghey joke


just make your point so we can flame it already.

[Blake]

How sad. I hope you never had any ambition of becoming a Freemason.

Nope. I already did the fraternity rent-a-friend thing complete with secret initiations in college.

Don't need God in our classrooms or on our money either.

[DarrinS]

Nope. I already did the fraternity rent-a-friend thing complete with secret initiations in college.

I'm sorry to hear that. Never joined a beer-bong club myself. Too busy working.

[ElNono]

I don't know, but they do -- even in math and (gasp) science.

And religion, I bet. :jack

[ElNono]

I'm sorry to hear that. Never joined a beer-bong club myself. Too busy working.

And praying?

[DarrinS]

And praying?

I'm not a Bible-banger. I'm also not a retarded Atheist.

[ElNono]

Didn't know you needed to be a Bible-banger to pray...

[DMC]

Nope. I already did the fraternity rent-a-friend thing complete with secret initiations in college.

Don't need God in our classrooms or on our money either.
Ironically, if there is a god, we don't really have a choice.

[DMC]

I'm not a Bible-banger. I'm also not a retarded Atheist.
Atheism shouldn't be capitalized just as bald shouldn't be. It's not a proper noun. I am an atheist because I don't have the ability to fake a belief in a god. I also don't have the ability to pretend I care what others think about it.

[Spurminator]

I'm not a Bible-banger. I'm also not a retarded Atheist.

Well you sure get just as pissy and non-sequitory as Bible bangers whenever these topics come up.

[Spurminator]

I wonder why kids from private religious schools always outperform kids from secular public schools?
...
I don't know, but they do -- even in math and (gasp) science.

Eureka! It must be because they're taught creationism and have mandatory prayers! If only we had those in public schools, our kids would perform better.

You should write your congressman to inform him of the genius revelation you just had.

[Crookshanks]

Nope. I already did the fraternity rent-a-friend thing complete with secret initiations in college.

Don't need God in our classrooms or on our money either.

One of the reasons this country is in such a mess is because we've taken God out of everything we can. And I blame the christians of my parents generation who sat idle and let this happen.

[ElNono]

One of the reasons this country is in such a mess is because we've taken God out of everything we can. And I blame the christians of my parents generation who sat idle and let this happen.

Do you think god is mad about that?

[Crookshanks]

Do you think god is mad about that?

Yes, I do - I believe this country is suffering the consequences of turning away from God. And I also believe it's only going to get worse.

[mingus]

The Pope himself has said that Evolution is legitimate.

[TeyshaBlue]

One of the reasons this country is in such a mess is because we've taken God out of everything we can. And I blame the christians of my parents generation who sat idle and let this happen.

So, you honstly believe God occupied our schools and we mortals forced him out?
Seriously?

[baseline bum]

Boy, god is an angry fuck.

[Blake]

One of the reasons this country is in such a mess is because we've taken God out of everything we can. And I blame the christians of my parents generation who sat idle and let this happen.

Yes, too many kids running around making fun of bald people.

[DMC]

The Pope himself has said that Evolution is legitimate.
There you go then, it's real now.

[Blake]

Yes, I do - I believe this country is suffering the consequences of turning away from God. And I also believe it's only going to get worse.

What consequences are we currently suffering that out country has never suffered before?

[DMC]

One of the reasons this country is in such a mess is because we've taken God out of everything we can. And I blame the christians of my parents generation who sat idle and let this happen.
Wow, two really generic predictable statements at once:

1. Blaming the "current state of affairs" on a lack of an invisible overlord.

2. Blaming parents for allowing it.

If God exists, he cannot be banned or barred from any place. He cannot be barred from schools or from libraries or anywhere else.

A really really, no brainer solution to this would be for God to walk into a congressional meeting and smite a few congressmen, demand laws be changed and prove his existence. If that happened, you wouldn't need to read a generic "god" name on a dollar bill in order to remind yourself that a god exists.

Oddly enough, no one questions the existence of the Sun.

[DMC]

What consequences are we currently suffering that out country has never suffered before?
Ipad 2 shortages

[Crookshanks]

I just found the following commentary on a Christian website. It talks about the very thing I said in my post about removing God from everything.
=============================

Is there any hope for revival in this country? Our Lord says to His people, “If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” (2 Chronicles 7:14) Based on this verse, I do believe that there is always hope for revival … but … I sincerely believe that we have passed the point of being willing to comply with this verse. In my opinion, our hearts are in the final stage shown in verse 27 above which says, “Tell them all this, but do not expect them to listen. Shout out your warnings, but do not expect them to respond.”

We, the Church, have sat idly by while the God we claim to worship has been removed from every vestige of our society.

We have allowed Him to be removed from our schools where our most precious treasure, our children, are being indoctrinated in their tender years to everything that is anti God. The Bible has been replaced by sex classes. Evolution has replaced the truth of creation by Almighty God. Discipline has been removed, resulting now in teachers being afraid of their students. Our schools have become a battleground. The Church has been silent.

The airwaves, be it movies, television, and even radio have become a bastion of filth. Homosexuality, promiscuous sex, gutter language, violence, drunkenness, drugs, divorce, etc. are all examples of Hollywood’s success in these avenues. The sinful acts against a Holy God are laughingly spat in His face. The Church has been silent.

The classical music of great composers has been replaced with trash. “Music” that encourages the killing of police officers, rape, hate, sex, and whatever else can come from the mouths of sewers. Instead of music that is soothing, uplifting, and comforting, it has been replaced with noise that draws gyrations of sexual desires. The Church has been silent.

God’s design for the family; husband (man), wife (woman) and children has been replaced with single parent families, or two same-sex parents. Also, one of the greatest detriments to the family is “no-fault divorce”. Children are not being given what they need in a family to grow mentally and emotionally as they should; a dad (man) and mom (woman). Is it any wonder they are confused. The Church has been silent.

Homosexually is overtaking this land like locusts, and it is a dirge to any society. Every society that has succumbed to this evil has fallen. We are not exempt. The Church has been silent.

Many of our governmental leaders are primarily corrupt, sexually perverted, obsessed with greed, and what do we do? We keep them in office year after year. The Church has been silent.

Even our manner of dress has changed to the point where there is often little to nothing left to the imagination. The body is not covered with respect, but put on display as a harlot. This can often be seen even in church worship services. The Church has been silent.

The Church has sat back on its haunches while Satan’s goats have infiltrated the local churches. In self-induced ignorance, the Church has allowed false teachings to infiltrate its assemblies and blaspheme the name of God by insulting His Holy Son, Jesus Christ. All that I have previously mentioned in this article, and more, have actually found their way into the local churches. The Church has been silent.

In Mark 6:12 the disciples, “…went out, and preached that men should repent.” This is what we, the Church, must do if there is any possibility of avoiding judgment. Notice that God said in 2 Chronicles 7:14, “If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. The emphasis is on “my people”.

We, the Church, could bring revival, if we only would. We must come to God as Job when he said, “Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.” (Job 42:6) We cannot continue blaming the world around us for the mess we are in. The world is only doing what is natural to a fallen world. When we sit idly by and do nothing, we are the problem. It is we, the Church, who must come to God on bended knee and repent.

It has been nearly 50 years since Madalyn Murray O’Hair began her crusade against God and His Church. In all that time, the Church as a whole has done nothing but sit back and watch. “Nary a peep”, as they would say years ago, back in the hills where I was raised.

Most are probably thinking, “what could I have done, I’m only one person?” Let me ask this question, how much of the world’s influence has rubbed off in your life? Allow me to provide a few examples to clarify that question:

· If your grown unmarried child comes to visit, and they bring their date with them, where do they sleep in your house?

· What do we allow to be seen and not seen on the television screen?

· What do we talk about among friends? Specifically, is Jesus ever mentioned?

· When was the last time you spoke out against Satanic doctrine preached in the local church you attend? Are you still there?

· What kind of example for Christ are you in front of your own children?

· How do you treat your own spouse?

· Has your family ever seen you pray and study God’s Word?

I could give dozens of other examples, but the point is that we can make a difference in our own area of the world we live in. However, I have seen far too many times, good people succumbing to the pressures of the world. It’s the old “everybody’s doing it” excuse. Let us keep one thing in mind, there is only one yardstick, the Word of God. We call it the Bible. We need to be VERY familiar with this Book. Sadly, very few are.

Is it too late for revival? I reiterate that in my opinion we have gone so far in our rebellion against God, we will not choose to repent, but instead face judgment. I would love to be proven wrong.

Is it possible that the Church could go through a cleansing judgment in this country (and elsewhere) before Jesus comes to retrieve her in the Rapture? It is entirely possible. Whether that is the case, I do not know. My earnest prayer for our country is that the Church wake up. Even if it is too late to change the direction of all the Satanic garbage that is proliferating itself upon us, we need to get our hearts right with God.

We the Church have been silent far too long, perhaps even past the point of no return, while darkness has replaced the light that once was. When the light is turned off to a room, darkness immediately takes its place, and that is the result of our silence. Jesus told us, “Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.” (Matthew 14-15) If our light is under a bushel, perhaps we need to get it out from under the bushel and place it on the candlestick. Jesus’ Word also tells us, “Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.” (John 8:12) Who are we following? If we are following Jesus, we will reflect His light to the world, because He is the light of life.

In closing, my observation is that many of those who claim to be Christians are good, moral people with high standards. They work hard at providing for their families, and they care for others. Perhaps they are the “silent majority” we speak of so often. Now is the time to break that silence and stand up for God. Jesus said “Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 10:32-33) If we are ashamed to confess Him, maybe we are not His child. On the other hand, if we are ashamed of ourselves, maybe we should repent and seek His forgiveness. A revival can always begin with one. Otherwise, our own silence condemns us, and it is deafening.



Grant Phillips

[email protected]

Pre-Rapture Commentary

http://grant-phillips.blogspot.com

[Spurminator]

What an absolute load of crap.

Here's the good news, Crookshanks, and you can pass this along to the Pharisee whose blog you pulled that misguided rant from: No government can ever stop God's people from praying. You can pray in your bedroom. You can pray in the car. You can pray in school (yes, that's right, YOU can pray in school... even without an official time designated to prayer).

Evolution hasn't replaced creation, it IS creation. If you believe in God, you believe in a God who set evolution into process. The laws guiding physics are no more godless than the laws guiding algebra. Teaching the history of the universe is no more heretical than teaching the history of the United States.

Stop acting like a victim. You live in a country where ever single President to this point has professed a Christian faith. It is extremely rare to find a non-Christian congressman. The idea that Christians are somehow oppressed in this country just because people have asked the government to stop putting Christian symbols and verses on everything, or questioned whether we should have added "Under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance, or decided to build a mosque in your city, or want to marry their same-sex partner, or anything else you've been alerted to by the manipulators who started the email chains you are sent every day, is patently absurd.

If your faith is so weak that it is threatened by any of these things, you need to have a long talk with God and read the Bible some more to see what it was like when Christians really were oppressed. They'd be rolling in their graves knowing how much you whine about how God's being driven out of this country.

[Spurminator]

Also, it's people like you driving people away from God. Not laws restricting government sanctioning of Christianity. You and your kind of Christian are the biggest threats to the faith. But you will never acknowledge this because to you, being a Christian is being a part of a team, like being a Republican or a Spurs fan. You don't have the slightest clue about how to treat others like Christ did. Why would anyone want to follow your faith when you're such an angry person who thinks her beliefs should be imposed on everyone?

[ElNono]

Yes, I do - I believe this country is suffering the consequences of turning away from God. And I also believe it's only going to get worse.

What do you think god is gonna do about it?

[DMC]

I just found the following commentary on a Christian website. It talks about the very thing I said in my post about removing God from everything.
=============================

Is there any hope for revival in this country? Our Lord says to His people, “If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” (2 Chronicles 7:14) Based on this verse, I do believe that there is always hope for revival … but … I sincerely believe that we have passed the point of being willing to comply with this verse. In my opinion, our hearts are in the final stage shown in verse 27 above which says, “Tell them all this, but do not expect them to listen. Shout out your warnings, but do not expect them to respond.”

We, the Church, have sat idly by while the God we claim to worship has been removed from every vestige of our society.

We have allowed Him to be removed from our schools where our most precious treasure, our children, are being indoctrinated in their tender years to everything that is anti God. The Bible has been replaced by sex classes. Evolution has replaced the truth of creation by Almighty God. Discipline has been removed, resulting now in teachers being afraid of their students. Our schools have become a battleground. The Church has been silent.

The airwaves, be it movies, television, and even radio have become a bastion of filth. Homosexuality, promiscuous sex, gutter language, violence, drunkenness, drugs, divorce, etc. are all examples of Hollywood’s success in these avenues. The sinful acts against a Holy God are laughingly spat in His face. The Church has been silent.

The classical music of great composers has been replaced with trash. “Music” that encourages the killing of police officers, rape, hate, sex, and whatever else can come from the mouths of sewers. Instead of music that is soothing, uplifting, and comforting, it has been replaced with noise that draws gyrations of sexual desires. The Church has been silent.

God’s design for the family; husband (man), wife (woman) and children has been replaced with single parent families, or two same-sex parents. Also, one of the greatest detriments to the family is “no-fault divorce”. Children are not being given what they need in a family to grow mentally and emotionally as they should; a dad (man) and mom (woman). Is it any wonder they are confused. The Church has been silent.

Homosexually is overtaking this land like locusts, and it is a dirge to any society. Every society that has succumbed to this evil has fallen. We are not exempt. The Church has been silent.

Many of our governmental leaders are primarily corrupt, sexually perverted, obsessed with greed, and what do we do? We keep them in office year after year. The Church has been silent.

Even our manner of dress has changed to the point where there is often little to nothing left to the imagination. The body is not covered with respect, but put on display as a harlot. This can often be seen even in church worship services. The Church has been silent.

The Church has sat back on its haunches while Satan’s goats have infiltrated the local churches. In self-induced ignorance, the Church has allowed false teachings to infiltrate its assemblies and blaspheme the name of God by insulting His Holy Son, Jesus Christ. All that I have previously mentioned in this article, and more, have actually found their way into the local churches. The Church has been silent.

In Mark 6:12 the disciples, “…went out, and preached that men should repent.” This is what we, the Church, must do if there is any possibility of avoiding judgment. Notice that God said in 2 Chronicles 7:14, “If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. The emphasis is on “my people”.

We, the Church, could bring revival, if we only would. We must come to God as Job when he said, “Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.” (Job 42:6) We cannot continue blaming the world around us for the mess we are in. The world is only doing what is natural to a fallen world. When we sit idly by and do nothing, we are the problem. It is we, the Church, who must come to God on bended knee and repent.

It has been nearly 50 years since Madalyn Murray O’Hair began her crusade against God and His Church. In all that time, the Church as a whole has done nothing but sit back and watch. “Nary a peep”, as they would say years ago, back in the hills where I was raised.

Most are probably thinking, “what could I have done, I’m only one person?” Let me ask this question, how much of the world’s influence has rubbed off in your life? Allow me to provide a few examples to clarify that question:

· If your grown unmarried child comes to visit, and they bring their date with them, where do they sleep in your house?

· What do we allow to be seen and not seen on the television screen?

· What do we talk about among friends? Specifically, is Jesus ever mentioned?

· When was the last time you spoke out against Satanic doctrine preached in the local church you attend? Are you still there?

· What kind of example for Christ are you in front of your own children?

· How do you treat your own spouse?

· Has your family ever seen you pray and study God’s Word?

I could give dozens of other examples, but the point is that we can make a difference in our own area of the world we live in. However, I have seen far too many times, good people succumbing to the pressures of the world. It’s the old “everybody’s doing it” excuse. Let us keep one thing in mind, there is only one yardstick, the Word of God. We call it the Bible. We need to be VERY familiar with this Book. Sadly, very few are.

Is it too late for revival? I reiterate that in my opinion we have gone so far in our rebellion against God, we will not choose to repent, but instead face judgment. I would love to be proven wrong.

Is it possible that the Church could go through a cleansing judgment in this country (and elsewhere) before Jesus comes to retrieve her in the Rapture? It is entirely possible. Whether that is the case, I do not know. My earnest prayer for our country is that the Church wake up. Even if it is too late to change the direction of all the Satanic garbage that is proliferating itself upon us, we need to get our hearts right with God.

We the Church have been silent far too long, perhaps even past the point of no return, while darkness has replaced the light that once was. When the light is turned off to a room, darkness immediately takes its place, and that is the result of our silence. Jesus told us, “Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.” (Matthew 14-15) If our light is under a bushel, perhaps we need to get it out from under the bushel and place it on the candlestick. Jesus’ Word also tells us, “Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.” (John 8:12) Who are we following? If we are following Jesus, we will reflect His light to the world, because He is the light of life.

In closing, my observation is that many of those who claim to be Christians are good, moral people with high standards. They work hard at providing for their families, and they care for others. Perhaps they are the “silent majority” we speak of so often. Now is the time to break that silence and stand up for God. Jesus said “Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 10:32-33) If we are ashamed to confess Him, maybe we are not His child. On the other hand, if we are ashamed of ourselves, maybe we should repent and seek His forgiveness. A revival can always begin with one. Otherwise, our own silence condemns us, and it is deafening.



Grant Phillips

[email protected]

Pre-Rapture Commentary

http://grant-phillips.blogspot.com

I don't argue with articles from other sites. Make a case and defend it and I will tear it down, or not.

[ElNono]

Boy, god is an angry fuck.

Maybe he's just setting up the stage for a grand-finale when he comes back and saves the world from.... premarital sex!

[DMC]

which leads to dancing

[Blake]

I'm sorry to hear that. Never joined a beer-bong club myself. Too busy working.

Then you don't have aspirations of joining the Masons either.

Good talk. :tu

[LnGrrrR]

I wonder why kids from private religious schools always outperform kids from secular public schools?

Just when I think you can't find a stupider strawman, you do. Bravo, DarrinS, bravo.

[LnGrrrR]

I'm not a Bible-banger. I'm also not a retarded Atheist.

Are you a retarded Christian?

[LnGrrrR]

Remember, if God doesn't show up to correct people, then it's because he believes in free will.

All those times before where he DID show up and correct people... uhmm... *mumble mumble*

[Wild Cobra]

Christians are so persecuted in this country.
Of course liberals are going to persecute Christians and Jews more than Islams. After all, the Islam is the religion of peace.

[Wild Cobra]

I just found the following commentary on a Christian website. It talks about the very thing I said in my post about removing God from everything.
=============================
<snip>
I think it has to do with the devil's greatest accomplishment. Making the world believe there is no devil. After all, if he doesn't exists, neither does Jehovah. Right?

[Wild Cobra]

Boy, god is an angry fuck.
Maybe it's because the sinners get the virgins. Some of them, 72 at a time!

[ElNono]

Of course liberals are going to persecute Christians and Jews more than Islams. After all, the Islam is the religion of peace.

Islam is another fairy tale with it's own book to thump

[DarrinS]

If you judged solely on websites like Huffpo, Dailykos, or even by posters here, you would think that atheism is the mainstream belief of liberals/progressives. Recent Gallop poll shows that at least 90% of Democrats believe in God.

[Wild Cobra]

If you judged solely on websites like Huffpo, Dailykos, or even by posters here, you would think that atheism is the mainstream belief of liberals/progressives. Recent Gallop poll shows that at least 90% of Democrats believe in God.
Well, if that's the case, there are so many ignorant democrats out their that don't know even know what their party is doing. They just vote for the "D".

Could that be why so many people claiming to be "Tea Party" are democrats? maybe they got woke up by Obapolicies?

[ChumpDumper]

opposing useless religious indoctrination in schools <> espousing atheism

[ChumpDumper]

maybe they got woke up by Obapolicies?Are you still learning English?

[Wild Cobra]

Are you still learning English?
I admit, I was struggling.

I didn't know what to use for sure.

Obamapolicies, O-Polices, Obampolices, etc...

[DMC]

If you judged solely on websites like Huffpo, Dailykos, or even by posters here, you would think that atheism is the mainstream belief of liberals/progressives. Recent Gallop poll shows that at least 90% of Democrats believe in God.
You moved the goal posts.

Not all Dems are liberal.

[DMC]

I think it has to do with the devil's greatest accomplishment. Making the world believe there is no devil. After all, if he doesn't exists, neither does Jehovah. Right?
Babelfish was the key

[Wild Cobra]

Babelfish was the key
You lost me.

Please elaborate.

[DMC]

Babel fish

For other uses, see Babel fish (disambiguation) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babel_fish_%28disambiguation%29).
The Babel fish is small, yellow, leech-like, and probably the oddest thing in the universe. It feeds on brain wave energy, absorbing all unconscious frequencies and then excreting telepathically a matrix formed from the conscious frequencies and nerve signals picked up from the speech centres of the brain, the practical upshot of which is that if you stick one in your ear, you can instantly understand anything said to you in any form of language: the speech you hear decodes the brain wave matrix. It is a universal translator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_translator) which simultaneously translates from one spoken language to another. It takes the brainwaves of the other body and what they are thinking then transmits the thoughts to the speech centres of the host's brain, the speech heard by the ear decodes the brainwave matrix. When inserted into the ear, its nutrition processes convert unconscious sound waves into conscious brain waves, neatly crossing the language divide between any species.
The book points out that the Babel fish could not possibly have developed naturally, and therefore both proves and disproves the existence of God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existence_of_God):

Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mindbogglingly useful could evolve purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God. The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing"."But," says man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It proves you exist and so therefore you don't. QED.""Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic."Oh, that was easy," says man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white, and gets killed on the next zebra crossing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zebra_crossing). Most leading theologians claim that this argument is a load of dingo's kidneys. But this did not stop Oolon Colluphid making a small fortune when he used it as the central theme for his best selling book, Well That About Wraps It Up for God. Meanwhile the poor Babel fish, by effectively removing all barriers to communication between different cultures and races, has caused more and bloodier wars than anything else in the history of creation. [3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babel_fish_%28The_Hitchhiker%27s_Guide_to_the_Gala xy%29#cite_note-2)

Arthur Dent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Dent) commented only 'Eurgh!' when first inserting the fish into his ear. It enabled him to understand Vogon Poetry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vogon_Poetry) - not necessarily a good thing.

[ElNono]

Could that be why so many people claiming to be "Tea Party" are democrats?

How many?

[ElNono]

If you judged solely on websites like Huffpo, Dailykos, or even by posters here, you would think that atheism is the mainstream belief of liberals/progressives. Recent Gallop poll shows that at least 90% of Democrats believe in God.

Does everybody that believes in god also believes creationism to be true?

[Blake]

I think it has to do with the devil's greatest accomplishment. Making the world believe there is no devil. After all, if he doesn't exists, neither does Jehovah. Right?

If the devil has read the book of revelation and still goes through with it, then he is the dumbest super villain of all time.

[Wild Cobra]

Does everybody that believes in god also believes creationism to be true?
I would say no. There is the creation, and then there is creationism. There are differences in peoples thoughts over these. The way the original words read, it could amount to terraforming.

[ElNono]

I would say no.

Thanks, I figured it was just another Darrin strawman.

[Wild Cobra]

Thanks, I figured it was just another Darrin strawman.
Call it what you will, but I did point out there are different schools of thought for creationism as well.

[Blake]

Call it what you will, but I did point out there are different schools of thought for creationism as well.

none of which belong in the public schools

[Wild Cobra]

none of which belong in the public schools
Then what do you suggest? Not teaching evolution? Teaching evolution and pointing out not all agree with it?

Schools are a place of learning, and just because something has religious themes, does that automatically disqualify them?

I would say that teachers who do anything to indicate religion is wrong to children are as guilty of those trying to preach religion. Teaching evolution in the manner schools do, disagrees with religion.

If we are going to be a culturally sensitive nation, then why are we so insensitive to Christian and other religious values?

[Blake]

I would say no. There is the creation, and then there is creationism. There are differences in peoples thoughts over these. The way the original words read, it could amount to terraforming.

lol original words.

zoroastrianism says hello

[Wild Cobra]

lol original words.

zoroastrianism says hello
What does "formed" mean to you? that's how the oldest texts we know of translates for the creation. It doesn't translate to "create."

[DarrinS]

none of which belong in the public schools

Talking about the nonexistence of God has no place in the public school either.

This is probably where SCOTUS will step in.

[Blake]

Then what do you suggest? Not teaching evolution? Teaching evolution and pointing out not all agree with it?

Schools are a place of learning, and just because something has religious themes, does that automatically disqualify them?

I would say that teachers who do anything to indicate religion is wrong to children are as guilty of those trying to preach religion. Teaching evolution in the manner schools do, disagrees with religion.

If we are going to be a culturally sensitive nation, then why are we so insensitive to Christian and other religious values?

how long have you been posting here?

your post belongs in the kiddie pool.

[Blake]

Talking about the nonexistence of God has no place in the public school either.

what about the nonexistence of Zeus?

kiddie pool you go

[Blake]

This is probably where SCOTUS will step in.

if they do, it will be just another way that religion holds us back as a society.

[Blake]

What does "formed" mean to you? that's how the oldest texts we know of translates for the creation. It doesn't translate to "create."

"formed" means "formed" to me.

what is the oldest text you know of?

[Wild Cobra]

"formed" means "formed" to me.

what is the oldest text you know of?
The Torah.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Talking about the nonexistence of God has no place in the public school either.

This is probably where SCOTUS will step in.

Doubtful scotus will carve out a new restriction on the 1st amendment bc of this dumbass case

[Wild Cobra]

Talking about the nonexistence of God has no place in the public school either.

This is probably where SCOTUS will step in.
This is true.

The liberal dogma of separation of church and state can be said to violates the first amendment!

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
To say the creation cannot be taught is a violation of established religion.

[Wild Cobra]

Doubtful scotus will carve out a new restriction on the 1st amendment bc of this dumbass case
LOL...

You mean you don't think they will honor the first amendment?

[Wild Cobra]

Can someone show me where in the constitution, the concept of "separation of church and state" is?

Please...

I missed that in my constitutional studies.

Surely, one of you liberals who are so versed about it can show me where it is.

[Wild Cobra]

I cannot remember a phrase verbatim, and my attempts to find a particular creation joke have failed. Anyone see the one where God tell Moses about how the earth, animals, man, etc. came to be? Moses says to God, something like "buy lord, they'll never believe that." God responds buy saying something like "Then tell them something they will believe."

Really want to find it.... Anyone?

Anyway, looking for it, I found a cute one women may like:


Creation of Man

One day in the Garden of Eden, Eve calls out to God, "Lord, I have a problem!"

"What's the problem, Eve?"

"Lord, I know you've created me and have provided this beautiful garden and all of these wonderful animals, and that hilarious comedy snake, but I'm just not happy."

"Why is that, Eve?" came the reply from above.

"Lord, I am lonely. And I'm sick to death of apples."

"Well, Eve, in that case, I have a solution. I shall create a man for you."

"What's a 'man', Lord?"

"This man will be a flawed creature, with aggressive tendencies, an enormous ego and an inability to empathize or listen to you properly. All in all, he'll give you a hard time. But, he'll be bigger and faster and more muscular than you. He'll be really good at fighting and kicking a ball about and hunting fleet- footed ruminants, and not altogether bad in the sack."

"Sounds great," says Eve, with an ironically raised eyebrow.

"Yeah, well. He's better than a poke in the eye with a burnt stick. But, you can have him on one condition."

"What's that, Lord?"

"You'll have to let him believe that I made him first."

[Spurminator]

Hey guys I just wanted to let everyone know that I went to church this morning and made it back home without being arrested or persecuted in any way. In case anyone was wondering about my safety. We were singing pretty loudly in the auditorium, but apparently it was not a problem.

[Spurminator]

opposing useless religious indoctrination in schools <> espousing atheism

Amen.

[DMC]

Hey guys I just wanted to let everyone know that I went to church this morning and made it back home without being arrested or persecuted in any way. In case anyone was wondering about my safety. We were singing pretty loudly in the auditorium, but apparently it was not a problem.
I was beginning to worry, because there are churches on almost every corner around here and new ones going up weekly. I would hate for that level of persecution to be going on in my neighborhood.

Anyhow, I was a church goer for many years and I can guarantee anyone that more persecution is happening inside the church than outside of it.

[ElNono]

Talking about the nonexistence of God has no place in the public school either.

Contextualized, sure it does.

[LnGrrrR]

If you judged solely on websites like Huffpo, Dailykos, or even by posters here, you would think that atheism is the mainstream belief of liberals/progressives. Recent Gallop poll shows that at least 90% of Democrats believe in God.

Your point?

[LnGrrrR]

Then what do you suggest? Not teaching evolution? Teaching evolution and pointing out not all agree with it?

Schools are a place of learning, and just because something has religious themes, does that automatically disqualify them?

I would say that teachers who do anything to indicate religion is wrong to children are as guilty of those trying to preach religion. Teaching evolution in the manner schools do, disagrees with religion.

If we are going to be a culturally sensitive nation, then why are we so insensitive to Christian and other religious values?

Saying that religion is wrong would be bad. Saying that a belief that is inherently unprovable (we were created by a rational creator) isn't science isn't bad.

Should we teach every crackpot theory about how we came about? Should we give equal time to people who think we were engineered by aliens, for instance.


Teaching evolution in the manner schools do, disagrees with religion.

I'm sure we teach things in our schools that disagree with Islamic beliefs. Does that mean we should stop teaching them?

[LnGrrrR]

This is true.

The liberal dogma of separation of church and state can be said to violates the first amendment!

To say the creation cannot be taught is a violation of established religion.

WC, honestly I think you're retarded sometimes. Not allowing the teaching of creationism = prohibiting free exercise of religion.

Hey, my kid's religion insists he meditates for five hours per day, from 9 AM to 2 PM. If schools make him go to classes, then they're violating his Constitutional rights!

[LnGrrrR]

Can someone show me where in the constitution, the concept of "separation of church and state" is?

Please...

I missed that in my constitutional studies.

Surely, one of you liberals who are so versed about it can show me where it is.

Can you show me it's not in there?

[ChuckD]

Then what do you suggest? Not teaching evolution? Teaching evolution and pointing out not all agree with it?

Schools are a place of learning, and just because something has religious themes, does that automatically disqualify them?

I would say that teachers who do anything to indicate religion is wrong to children are as guilty of those trying to preach religion. Teaching evolution in the manner schools do, disagrees with religion.

If we are going to be a culturally sensitive nation, then why are we so insensitive to Christian and other religious values?

Religion belongs in church and in the home. School is for teaching facts and testing theories and hypotheses, not espousing beliefs. That would qualify as religious indoctrination, something a government funded entity has no business doing.

There is no test to prove God exists. There are no footprints of God in rocks from long ago. You either believe or you don't. If you believe, it shouldn't be a burden to explain to your children that what they are taught in school is different from what they learn in church, and that that's OK, not everyone believes. What people of weak faith are afraid of is that kids will understand that there are fossils from millions of years ago, and there is a scientifically proven process called Carbon 14 dating, and that the world is NOT only 6000 years old. At that point, biblical literalism becomes absurd. You can still be a Christian and believe, though.

[DMC]

Separation of church and state is part and parcel of the Bill of Rights, as it was the mindset of one of the framers of the Constitution of the United States. Thomas Jefferson spoke about it in his letter to the Danbury Baptists, and he spoke in favor of religion. It was to protect religion from the state, not to protect the state from religion, although it serves to do both.

There's no reason to teach creation in schools. They should teach what we know to be true, and science is the art of discovery.

Religion does not change it's course, by nature, therefore no learning happens. There is only learning of religion, but religion itself does not grow.

Science does grow, because unlike religion, science is in a constant state of flux. We can put a pinpoint on the now and teach what we currently believe to be true based on evidence, experimental data and sound reasoning. When we make an hypothesis and it turns out to be wrong, we can easily rewrite it and it's taught as such. Religion cannot be rewritten and it's taught as such. Therefore no matter how many mistakes are discovered, what else is learned, the religious are at the mercy of those who wrote the book a couple thousand years ago.

Science is a constantly updated GPS map.

Religion doesn't even show the USA.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I wonder why kids from private religious schools always outperform kids from secular public schools?

Have any statistics of economically equitable kids from secular schools versus religious schools?

[Spurminator]

Yes, I do - I believe this country is suffering the consequences of turning away from God. And I also believe it's only going to get worse.

Meanwhile he's heaping riches and rewards on the Christian Republic of China.

[ElNono]

Can someone show me where in the constitution, the concept of "separation of church and state" is?

I'll let Thomas Jefferson explain it to you:

"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State"


To say the creation cannot be taught is a violation of established religion.

Not true. Teaching creation in theology classes (among other places) is obviously permitted.

[DarrinS]

Have any statistics of economically equitable kids from secular schools versus religious schools?

I was wondering how long it would take for this knee-jerk argument to appear. To answer your question, yes, there are studies that show, that even when "socioeconomic injustice" is accounted for, the religious schools still kick public school ass.

[Spurminator]

So it's the praying and the teaching of creationism then.

[Spurminator]

Hey, Japan's excellence in math and science must be because they have so many Christian schools!

[ploto]

Creationism does not belong in science class but it is OK in social studies class. Religious belief is part of history, sociology, and psychology.

[LnGrrrR]

I was wondering how long it would take for this knee-jerk argument to appear. To answer your question, yes, there are studies that show, that even when "socioeconomic injustice" is accounted for, the religious schools still kick public school ass.

I think the question was, how does a secular private school compare to a religious private school.

[DarrinS]

I think the question was, how does a secular private school compare to a religious private school.

I don't think so.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Separation of church and state is part and parcel of the Bill of Rights, as it was the mindset of one of the framers of the Constitution of the United States. Thomas Jefferson spoke about it in his letter to the Danbury Baptists, and he spoke in favor of religion. It was to protect religion from the state, not to protect the state from religion, although it serves to do both.

There's no reason to teach creation in schools. They should teach what we know to be true, and science is the art of discovery.

Religion does not change it's course, by nature, therefore no learning happens. There is only learning of religion, but religion itself does not grow.

Science does grow, because unlike religion, science is in a constant state of flux. We can put a pinpoint on the now and teach what we currently believe to be true based on evidence, experimental data and sound reasoning. When we make an hypothesis and it turns out to be wrong, we can easily rewrite it and it's taught as such. Religion cannot be rewritten and it's taught as such. Therefore no matter how many mistakes are discovered, what else is learned, the religious are at the mercy of those who wrote the book a couple thousand years ago.

Science is a constantly updated GPS map.

Religion doesn't even show the USA.

Religion grows by picking and choosing the logical inconsistencies contained within itself to conform to reality. Otherwise people don't buy it.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I was wondering how long it would take for this knee-jerk argument to appear. To answer your question, yes, there are studies that show, that even when "socioeconomic injustice" is accounted for, the religious schools still kick public school ass.

Care to link such a study cause your word to me does not amount to shit.

[ElNono]

Care to link such a study cause your word to me does not amount to shit.

I can link one that actually runs contrary to Darrin's claim:

http://www.edline.com/uploads/pdf/PrivateSchoolsReport.pdf

[ElNono]

Counterpoint (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1670063,00.html)

[Oh, Gee!!]

I was wondering how long it would take for this knee-jerk argument to appear.

Waiting around for a knee-jerk response seems counter-intuitive. But then again, so do most of your expectations. Iow, you're an idiot.

[LnGrrrR]

I don't think so.

Fine, then I will ask it. I will wait for the answer.

[DarrinS]

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1670063,00.html

[FuzzyLumpkins]

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1670063,00.html

You do realize that the author of that article in the beginning invalidates the basis for his conclusion by stating that studies on the subject from either viewpoint are a dime a dozen? Probably not because as a good minion, critical thinking is not important to you.

Elnono posted another study that came to a different conclusion so your assertion that they beat the pants off of secular schools is at best in doubt.

[DarrinS]

You do realize that the author of that article in the beginning invalidates the basis for his conclusion by stating that studies on the subject from either viewpoint are a dime a dozen? Probably not because as a good minion, critical thinking is not important to you.

Elnono posted another study that came to a different conclusion so your assertion that they beat the pants off of secular schools is at best in doubt.


Meh, <swats away gnat>

[Blake]

Meh, <swats away gnat>

<lol owned by imaginary gnats>

[Borat Sagyidev]

This is why my home country is better than US of A.

Everyone know here that creationism is not superstitious nonsense, but Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Sun God, Greek Gods, etc is.

[FromWayDowntown]

Johnny's teachers struggle to teach him how to read, write, add, and subtract. Why anyone would want that teacher delving into incredibly nuanced philosophical issues of religion is beyond me.

My daughter won't need a public school teacher to inculcate religious teaching to her. My priest, my wife, and I will handle that.

And whoever said it before is exactly right: most of the nonsense about outlawing religion in schools is just that -- nonsense. If kids want to pray in schools (independently or or in groups) or read the Bible, or talk about religion, there's absolutely nothing in the Constitution to prohibit that, so long as the school is uninvolved. Why anyone would insist upon having the school become involved in that activity is beyond me.

[LnGrrrR]

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1670063,00.html

You would think you would've posted a link to the actual study, so we could see the numbers.

[RandomGuy]

I was wondering how long it would take for this knee-jerk argument to appear. To answer your question, yes, there are studies that show, that even when "socioeconomic injustice" is accounted for, the religious schools still kick public school ass.

Link?







(resolves not to hold breath waiting)

[ChumpDumper]

Link?







(resolves not to hold breath waiting)Is Darrin's word not good enough for you?

Shame.

[Wild Cobra]

Saying that religion is wrong would be bad. Saying that a belief that is inherently unprovable (we were created by a rational creator) isn't science isn't bad.

Should we teach every crackpot theory about how we came about? Should we give equal time to people who think we were engineered by aliens, for instance.



I'm sure we teach things in our schools that disagree with Islamic beliefs. Does that mean we should stop teaching them?
Question.

Why is it so important to teach evolution?

I think it's the Atheists way to slap religion. Let students study such sciences as an elective. Not general mandatory science if they want it.

[Wild Cobra]

WC, honestly I think you're retarded sometimes. Not allowing the teaching of creationism = prohibiting free exercise of religion.

Hey, my kid's religion insists he meditates for five hours per day, from 9 AM to 2 PM. If schools make him go to classes, then they're violating his Constitutional rights!
I'm only asking people to show me where "separation of church and state" resides in our highest law. That is what you are responding to.

Can you?

[ChumpDumper]

Question.

Why is it so important to teach evolution?

I think it's the Atheists way to slap religion. Let students study such sciences as an elective. Not general mandatory science if they want it.Yes, it's a grand atheist conspiracy. Someone finally caught on.

[ElNono]

I'm only asking people to show me where "separation of church and state" resides in our highest law. That is what you are responding to.

I already did. You didn't respond either, tbh

[Wild Cobra]

I'll let Thomas Jefferson explain it to you:

"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State"

I am fully aware of that, and the only place you find one of our founding fathers say those words, written in a letter. Not an official document. It is one well respected man's opinion and not part of the constitution. He does not define that separation, and the constitution clearly states a one way purpose.

Are you suggesting that amongst all our founding fathers, their opinions were in lockstep?

[ElNono]

I am fully aware of that, and the only place you find one of our founding fathers say those words, written in a letter. Not an official document. It is one well respected man's opinion and not part of the constitution. He does not define that separation, and the constitution clearly states a one way purpose.

Are you suggesting that amongst all our founding fathers, their opinions were in lockstep?

I'm suggesting Thomas Jefferson is a much more authoritative voice about the subject (including the SCOTUS referencing such opinion to reach conclusions on the matter) than yours.

[DarrinS]

Link?

(resolves not to hold breath waiting)

You may exhale that CO2 (just don't tell the EPA).

http://www.cep-dc.org/cfcontent_file.cfm?Attachment=Wenglinsky%5FReport% 5FPrivateSchool%5F101007%2Epdf

[ElNono]

BTW, I posted a link to the study that the times article references.

Here, I'll post it again:
http://www.edline.com/uploads/pdf/PrivateSchoolsReport.pdf

[ChumpDumper]

I'm all for dedicating like five minutes of class time to creationism and/or intelligent design. Just say that some folk are content to throw up their hands at some point and say God or aliens did it and stop any serious inquiry into that belief right then. And that it's fine to do that. Anything else falls under the heading of a comparative religion elective.

[DarrinS]

BTW, I posted a link to the study that the times article references.

Here, I'll post it again:
http://www.edline.com/uploads/pdf/PrivateSchoolsReport.pdf




Taken as a whole, these findings suggest that students who attend private high schools receive neither immediate academic advantages nor longer-term advantages in attending college, finding satisfaction in the job market, or participating in civic life.

This study did identify two exceptions to this general finding. The primary exception is that students who attended independent private high schools had higher SAT scores than public school students, which gave independent school students an advantage in getting into elite colleges. (These independent private schools enroll many students from affluent families and are often expensive and fairly elite themselves, with tuitions as high as $30,000 a year.) This finding suggests that while these schools are no better at teaching the subject matter, they may provide students with test-taking skills that help them further their education, or they may enroll students with higher IQs (aptitude tests like the SAT are a better measure of IQ than achievement tests are).

A second exception is that one special type of private school, Catholic schools run by holy orders (such as Jesuit schools), did have some positive academic effects. There are very few such schools, however; most Catholic schools are run by their diocese, not by an order (Meyer, 2007).

[ChumpDumper]

Taken as a whole, these findings suggest that students who attend private high schools receive neither immediate academic advantages nor longer-term advantages in attending college, finding satisfaction in the job market, or participating in civic life.

[ElNono]

Right, which is counter to:


I was wondering how long it would take for this knee-jerk argument to appear. To answer your question, yes, there are studies that show, that even when "socioeconomic injustice" is accounted for, the religious schools still kick public school ass.

[DarrinS]

Well, they do better on SAT's. What subjects are covered on SAT's again?

[ChumpDumper]

lol standardized test smack

lol kick public school ass

[ChumpDumper]

[duplicate post]

[ElNono]

Well, they do better on SAT's. What subjects are covered on SAT's again?


This finding suggests that while these schools are no better at teaching the subject matter, they may provide students with test-taking skills that help them further their education, or they may enroll students with higher IQs (aptitude tests like the SAT are a better measure of IQ than achievement tests are).

[Wild Cobra]

I'm suggesting Thomas Jefferson is a much more authoritative voice about the subject (including the SCOTUS referencing such opinion to reach conclusions on the matter) than yours.
OK, how did he define this separation? Also, did you notice a key word "contemplate?"

[ElNono]

OK, how did he define this separation? Also, did you notice a key word "contemplate?"

You should read: Reynolds v. United States (1879) and Everson v. Board of Education (1947) for the SCOTUS's interpretation of that quote, and you can argue semantics with them.

[Wild Cobra]

You should read: Reynolds v. United States (1879) and Everson v. Board of Education (1947) for the SCOTUS's interpretation of that quote, and you can argue semantics with them.
Funny though how in both rulings, the letter is used, but not key to the rulings.

[ElNono]

Funny though how in both rulings, the letter is used, but not key to the rulings.

And?

[Wild Cobra]

And?
They were based on reasonable interpretations of the law.

Right or wrong?

[Spurminator]

Well, they do better on SAT's. What subjects are covered on SAT's again?


This finding suggests that while these schools are no better at teaching the subject matter, they may provide students with test-taking skills that help them further their education, or they may enroll students with higher IQs (aptitude tests like the SAT are a better measure of IQ than achievement tests are).

[ElNono]

They were based on reasonable interpretations of the law.

Right or wrong?

Both majority and dissenting opinions, which agreed on the separation of church and state, among other things by referencing that TJ paragraph, were used as legal precedent for posterior rulings on 'separation of church and state'.

Right or wrong?

[Wild Cobra]

Both majority and dissenting opinions, which agreed on the separation of church and state, among other things by referencing that TJ paragraph, were used as legal precedent for posterior rulings on 'separation of church and state'.

Right or wrong?
True, and I think it was a mistake.

Thing is, it is not clear what Jefferson meant by his words. His reflection on the wording of the constitution is a statement, but not one of agreeing or not agreeing. I think he meant that the government could not make laws for the favor of religion, or stop religion from practicing their beliefs. that is the wall. This has since been interpreted that government must not do anything that appears in favor of religion. I don't see that idea in either the constitution, or Jefferson's thoughts.


To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.

On a side note, Mormonism was not an established religion at the time of these writings.

[ElNono]

True, and I think it was a mistake.

Thanks, but I'll take the SCOTUS legal opinion (who opined twice in different eras) over yours every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

BTW, the SCOTUS never said that 'separation of church and state' is an absolute. But I'll stop feeding you information you should be able to research by yourself.

[Wild Cobra]

Have you ever read what Jefferson's letter was in response to? If not:

The address of the Danbury Baptists Association in the state of Connecticut, assembled October 7, 1801. To Thomas Jefferson, Esq., President of the United States of America.

Sir,

Among the many million in America and Europe who rejoice in your election to office; we embrace the first opportunity which we have enjoyed in our collective capacity, since your inauguration, to express our great satisfaction, in your appointment to the chief magistracy in the United States: And though our mode of expression may be less courtly and pompous than what many others clothe their addresses with, we beg you, sir, to believe that none are more sincere.

Our sentiments are uniformly on the side of religious liberty--that religion is at all times and places a matter between God and individuals--that no man ought to suffer in name, person, or effects on account of his religious opinions--that the legitimate power of civil government extends no further than to punish the man who works ill to his neighbors; But, sir, our constitution of government is not specific. Our ancient charter together with the law made coincident therewith, were adopted as the basis of our government, at the time of our revolution; and such had been our laws and usages, and such still are; that religion is considered as the first object of legislation; and therefore what religious privileges we enjoy (as a minor part of the state) we enjoy as favors granted, and not as inalienable rights; and these favors we receive at the expense of such degrading acknowledgements as are inconsistent with the rights of freemen. It is not to be wondered at therefore; if those who seek after power and gain under the pretense of government and religion should reproach their fellow men--should reproach their order magistrate, as a enemy of religion, law, and good order, because he will not, dare not, assume the prerogatives of Jehovah and make laws to govern the kingdom of Christ.

Sir, we are sensible that the president of the United States is not the national legislator, and also sensible that the national government cannot destroy the laws of each state; but our hopes are strong that the sentiments of our beloved president, which have had such genial effect already, like the radiant beams of the sun, will shine and prevail through all these states and all the world, till hierarchy and tyranny be destroyed from the earth. Sir, when we reflect on your past services, and see a glow of philanthropy and good will shining forth in a course of more than thirty years we have reason to believe that America's God has raised you up to fill the chair of state out of that goodwill which he bears to the millions which you preside over. May God strengthen you for your arduous task which providence and the voice of the people have called you to sustain and support you enjoy administration against all the predetermined opposition of those who wish to raise to wealth and importance on the poverty and subjection of the people.

And may the Lord preserve you safe from every evil and bring you at last to his heavenly kingdom through Jesus Christ our Glorious Mediator.

Signed in behalf of the association,
Nehemiah Dodge
Ephraim Robbins
Stephen S. Nelson

[ElNono]

Have you ever read what Jefferson's letter was in response to?

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5385119&postcount=101

[LnGrrrR]

Question.

Why is it so important to teach evolution?

Because it helps explain why things are the way they are... like pretty much every scientific subject? Why teach physics? Why teach chemistry?


I think it's the Atheists way to slap religion. Let students study such sciences as an elective. Not general mandatory science if they want it.

Was astronomy just a way for atheists to slay religion by going contra to the Earth = center of the universe theory?

[LnGrrrR]

I am fully aware of that, and the only place you find one of our founding fathers say those words, written in a letter. Not an official document. It is one well respected man's opinion and not part of the constitution. He does not define that separation, and the constitution clearly states a one way purpose.

Are you suggesting that amongst all our founding fathers, their opinions were in lockstep?

Freedom of religion necessarily constitutes freedom FROM religion, as well.

What's the point of making me prove that "separation of church and state" is in writing somewhere? Unless you can prove that the founders intended the opposite, then there's no point to it.

[DarrinS]

Was astronomy just a way for atheists to slay religion by going contra to the Earth = center of the universe theory?


You mean that Roman Catholic, Nicolaus Copernicus?

[DMC]

Religion grows by picking and choosing the logical inconsistencies contained within itself to conform to reality. Otherwise people don't buy it.
It then branches off to form a new sect, as many of the religious followers don't buy it either. That's why there are so many different sects.

[DMC]

I was wondering how long it would take for this knee-jerk argument to appear. To answer your question, yes, there are studies that show, that even when "socioeconomic injustice" is accounted for, the religious schools still kick public school ass.
Which religion does better?

[DMC]

True, and I think it was a mistake.

Thing is, it is not clear what Jefferson meant by his words. His reflection on the wording of the constitution is a statement, but not one of agreeing or not agreeing. I think he meant that the government could not make laws for the favor of religion, or stop religion from practicing their beliefs. that is the wall. This has since been interpreted that government must not do anything that appears in favor of religion. I don't see that idea in either the constitution, or Jefferson's thoughts.



On a side note, Mormonism was not an established religion at the time of these writings.

Jefferson's words were unquestionably defining as separation of church and state, the 1st Amendment of the Constitution. Jefferson had utmost authority to do so.

To question his intent on this is an exercise in futility.

[LnGrrrR]

You mean that Roman Catholic, Nicolaus Copernicus?

Was Darwin an atheist? Methinks you didn't get my point. Not surprisingly.

[FromWayDowntown]

Jefferson's words were unquestionably defining as separation of church and state, the 1st Amendment of the Constitution. Jefferson had utmost authority to do so.

To question his intent on this is an exercise in futility.

I think the historical attack on Jefferson's letter is that he was neither a signer of the Constitution nor an author of the Bill of Rights. It is noteworthy, however, that Jefferson and James Madison (who did write the Bill of Rights).

Functionally, I don't see how the two competing religion clauses of the First Amendment can operate without a Separation of Church and State. Necessarily, if the State becomes involved in religion by undertaking to legislate religious activity, it threatens the free exercise rights of someone (either the person who objects to religion altogether or the person who has a discordant view of the religious practice); contrarily, if Free Exercise is to mean anything, it has to at the very least mean that government won't be involved in what you do, religiously (with some very limited exceptions).

The fundamental justification for arguing that the government should ever be involved in religion lies in a belief that government should respect the will of the majority. But nothing about the Bill of Rights is majoritarian; everything about it is counter-majoritarian -- it necessarily protects the right of the political, social, and religious minorities from curtailment by the majority (popular speech needs no protection; those who are alleged to have violated no law need no protection through things like guarantees of due process).

[DMC]

I think the historical attack on Jefferson's letter is that he was neither a signer of the Constitution nor an author of the Bill of Rights. It is noteworthy, however, that Jefferson and James Madison (who did write the Bill of Rights).

Functionally, I don't see how the two competing religion clauses of the First Amendment can operate without a Separation of Church and State. Necessarily, if the State becomes involved in religion by undertaking to legislate religious activity, it threatens the free exercise rights of someone (either the person who objects to religion altogether or the person who has a discordant view of the religious practice); contrarily, if Free Exercise is to mean anything, it has to at the very least mean that government won't be involved in what you do, religiously (with some very limited exceptions).

The fundamental justification for arguing that the government should ever be involved in religion lies in a belief that government should respect the will of the majority. But nothing about the Bill of Rights is majoritarian; everything about it is counter-majoritarian -- it necessarily protects the right of the political, social, and religious minorities from curtailment by the majority (popular speech needs no protection; those who are alleged to have violated no law need no protection through things like guarantees of due process).

Well said (and eloquently I might add)

[ElNono]

Evangelicals Question The Existence Of Adam And Eve (http://www.npr.org/2011/08/09/138957812/evangelicals-question-the-existence-of-adam-and-eve)

[DarkReign]

Evangelicals Question The Existence Of Adam And Eve (http://www.npr.org/2011/08/09/138957812/evangelicals-question-the-existence-of-adam-and-eve)

771 comments on that story.

771 heads collectively beating against a wall.

[boutons_deux]

"if other Protestants want to accommodate science, fine. But they shouldn't be surprised if their faith unravels."

If their faith can't be reconciled with the best efforts of man to understand such that they lose their faith, then those are shitty beliefs, n'est-ce-pas?

side effect: faith peddlers and other false propehts would lose their power and money-sucking tactics so they have tremendous self-interest in keeping people benighted and enslaved in the Dark Ages.

[DMC]

Meh, no one is forcing people to believe the shit. The keeper of the lazy mind accepts whatever enters it, and won't wake mind security to investigate most of the time.

[scott]

I'm growing increasingly worried about America's catching on of the Great Atheist Conspiracy in which I have wittingly taken apart of for decades and other great Americans for decades before me.

The Freemasons and Illuminati are the stuff of Hollywood fairy tale. The Great Atheist Agenda has been behind almost every major event in history. JFK? It wasn't some putz on a grassy knoll and it wasn't even male models... it was us. Do you think we could let a Catholic lead this country? Once we witnessed kneeling beginning to infiltrate great American sports like football, we knew something had to be done before the ball was replaced by a crucifix.

Every American president since has been an Atheist. Wonder why they always sound like idiotic hypocrites when talking about religion? Part of the time, its just our way of fucking with you. The rest of the time, we just can't keep track of the bullshit you believe in.

But have no fear. We do not wish to eradicate religion from American life. After all, we have to control you animals somehow.

Science bless you.

[DarrinS]

Lol @ Scott

Atheists are fringe

[LnGrrrR]

Nice one Scott :lol

[ElNono]

You think he's kidding?

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110616170631AAICY1G

[ElNono]

:lol

[LnGrrrR]

:lmao :lmao :lmao

[DMX7]

Scott "went there". Good job, sir.