Can we actually talk basketball instead of krew fapping?

[Findog]

http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2011/08/16/top-100-nba-players-nos-1-10/

http://eye-on-basketball.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22748484/31491025

Who is better right now, Dwight Howard or Dirk Nowitzki?

[stretch]

Dirk

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Tbh after winning with the supporting cast he had you'd be hard pressed to definitively say anybody is better than Dirk right now.

[Findog]

Dirk

I think you can make an argument either way.

I have another question: If you're Pat Riley and Otis Smith calls you up and offers D-12 for LeBron straight up, do you do it? Assuming it's cap legal?

[Findog]

Tbh after winning with the supporting cast he had you'd be hard pressed to definitively say anybody is better than Dirk right now.

I think with LeBron it all goes back to his propensity to shrink from the moment. He had Bosh and Wade by his side and lost. Dirk had Terry and Chandler (two really, really good players that complement him well, but not the talents that Bosh and Wade are).

[DeadlyDynasty]

I think you can make an argument either way.

I have another question: If you're Pat Riley and Otis Smith calls you up and offers D-12 for LeBron straight up, do you do it? Assuming it's cap legal?

^
Fuck yes. Anytime you can team a top 3 wing with the top bigman you don't hesitate to pull the trigger.

[Findog]

Tbh after winning with the supporting cast he had you'd be hard pressed to definitively say anybody is better than Dirk right now.

On the other hand if LeBron played like he did against Boston or Chicago, the Mavs would have been lucky to win two games in the Finals.

I actually think he needs to work on his mid-range shot more than his post-game. He's so strong going to the basket face up, but when a team seals off the paint or doubles him in the post to where he has to kick it out, he has nothing to fall back on. If his three pointer isn't falling, and he's sealed out of the paint, he doesn't have a reliable mid-range shot.

[stretch]

Reason I say Dirk over Dwight, is because Dwight still doesn't have the ability to offensively carry the load to win a championship. And I'm not sure mentally he's anywhere NEARLY as strong as guys like Kobe, Dirk, or Wade. Dude doesn't seem to have that hatred of losing, and his IQ sometimes is still suspect considering how frequently he screws his team over by picking up stupid fouls.

I think Dwight is REALLY good, by far the best center in the game, and any team would absolutely love to have him, but I have felt for several years now, that he is the most overrated player in the NBA, and still stick with that. He won't ever be a true #1 player until he develops a better offensive game and a killer instinct mentality. IMO, he is similar to KG back in the day... damn good, and borderline #1 type player, but is missing leadership on the offensive side of the ball to ever be the undisputed #1 on a championship winning team.

People can say all the "defense wins championship!!!!! fuck dirk!!!!" crap, but in the end, one thing that basically every championship winning #1 player had in common, was the ability to dominate games in the clutch on the offensive end of the floor. but not every single one of them were known as dominant defensive players.

[Findog]

^
Fuck yes. Anytime you can team a top 3 wing with the top bigman you don't hesitate to pull the trigger.

I would do it too. You wouldn't want Howard and say Tyson Chandler on the same team. I think LeBron and Wade just overlap too much in what they bring to the table. They're both so damn good that the Heat came within two wins of a championship with so little in the way of a balanced supporting cast, but a cor of Wade, Bosh and Howard would be sick.

[stretch]

I think you can make an argument either way.

I have another question: If you're Pat Riley and Otis Smith calls you up and offers D-12 for LeBron straight up, do you do it? Assuming it's cap legal?

Yes, but not because Howard is better, as opposed to him being a better fit for the Heat.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I think you can make an argument either way.

I have another question: If you're Pat Riley and Otis Smith calls you up and offers D-12 for LeBron straight up, do you do it? Assuming it's cap legal?
I wouldn't. As much shit as they are taking now, the Heat were probably a game 2 choke away from winning a championship in their 1st season together and still made the finals. If Miami adds a good center, resigns Chalmers, has a healthy Mike Miller and Haslem next season, etc., and still come up short, only then should Riley consider trading one of their big 3.

[Findog]

Reason I say Dirk over Dwight, is because Dwight still doesn't have the ability to offensively carry the load to win a championship. And I'm not sure mentally he's anywhere NEARLY as strong as guys like Kobe, Dirk, or Wade. Dude doesn't seem to have that hatred of losing, and his IQ sometimes is still suspect considering how frequently he screws his team over by picking up stupid fouls.

I think Dwight is REALLY good, by far the best center in the game, and any team would absolutely love to have him, but I have felt for several years now, that he is the most overrated player in the NBA, and still stick with that. He won't ever be a true #1 player until he develops a better offensive game and a killer instinct mentality. IMO, he is similar to KG back in the day... damn good, and borderline #1 type player, but is missing leadership on the offensive side of the ball to ever be the undisputed #1 on a championship winning team.

Howard's only 25 and already scores 23 points a game without a polished low-post game. I don't think he has to be Hakeem on the low block to be the #1 on a title team. At 25 how many people thought Dirk could be the #1 on a title team? I think Howard is ahead of where Dirk was when he was 25.

[Jose Canseco]

I have another question: If you're Pat Riley and Otis Smith calls you up and offers D-12 for LeBron straight up, do you do it? Assuming it's cap legal?

If I were Riley, I'd trade BOTH LeBron and Bosh for Dwight Howard. They would still have Mike Miller and Udonis Haslem at the two forward spots, and more financial maneuverability to acquire depth and/or upgrade the PG position.

[stretch]

Howard's only 25 and already scores 23 points a game without a polished low-post game. I don't think he has to be Hakeem on the low block to be the #1 on a title team. At 25 how many people thought Dirk could be the #1 on a title team? I think Howard is ahead of where Dirk was when he was 25.

I agree, but the difference is that Dirk is much more skilled naturally. Howard gets his off of athletic ability, and hasn't really shown the types of natural talents that Dirk had.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Wade's health/age also scares me. I question how much longer that guy can be a team's main perimeter scorer, I think in future years he'll need Lebron to make it so he can be more fresh for the 4th quarter.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Reason I say Dirk over Dwight, is because Dwight still doesn't have the ability to offensively carry the load to win a championship.
This, and before some dumbfuck Spurs fan comes in and says "defense wins championships", players who can carry the load offensively are more valuable than guys who can anchor the defense. The Mavs basically gave up nothing for Chandler and he turned out to be their defensive anchor. You can have role players as the main cogs on defense.


Being able to put the ball in the basket in the 4th quarter against an elite defensive team that's focused on stopping you is by far the most valuable skill an NBA player can have.

[Monostradamus]

also Howard's 23 points a game are different than 23 points out of a guy like Duncan or Shaq. I don't know that you can ever rely on Howard to consistently get you tough points in a close playoff game like you can with other great big men. Last I checked you can't win a title catching alley-oops in the clutch.

[Jose Canseco]

Good points on Wade's injury concerns and Dwight's inability to carry an offense.

However, along with the apparent failures of LeBron to play big in crunchtime, part of Miami's problem was the confusion on who the ball needed to go to in crunchtime. There was no definitive and concrete pecking order. If it's Wade and Dwight, there's no two ways about it, it's Wade's ball at the end of the game. Dwight is a secondary scorer. Even with teams that had multiple stars, the pecking order was established. On the Spurs, it was Duncan's team, but the ball was often in Ginobili's hands in crunchtime, even if he wasn't the one who ultimately scored. On the Lakers, you know it's Kobe first, Pau second. On the Celtics, Pierce gets the ball and makes the decisions most of the time depending on how the other team plays them. With Wade and LeBron, there was uncertainty. LeBron arguably more talented than Wade and arguably the biggest star in the league. Wade a proven closer. Trouble set in when they decided to play hot potato and take turns closing out games. Sometimes, it's a nice problem to have. Last season, in the Finals, not so much.

With Dwight, there's no uncertainty. No question. Wade 1, Dwight 2.

[DeadlyDynasty]

I would do it too. You wouldn't want Howard and say Tyson Chandler on the same team. I think LeBron and Wade just overlap too much in what they bring to the table. They're both so damn good that the Heat came within two wins of a championship with so little in the way of a balanced supporting cast, but a cor of Wade, Bosh and Howard would be sick.

Yeah, LBJ and Wade's games are too similar and there's always the question of who your closer is. The Mavs didn't have that problem. A Miami team with D12 instead of LBJ wouldn't have that problem. It'd be 2000-2002 Lakers all over again.

[DeadlyDynasty]

Good points on Wade's injury concerns and Dwight's inability to carry an offense.

However, along with the apparent failures of LeBron to play big in crunchtime, part of Miami's problem was the confusion on who the ball needed to go to in crunchtime. There was no definitive and concrete pecking order. If it's Wade and Dwight, there's no two ways about it, it's Wade's ball at the end of the game. Dwight is a secondary scorer. Even with teams that had multiple stars, the pecking order was established. On the Spurs, it was Duncan's team, but the ball was often in Ginobili's hands in crunchtime, even if he wasn't the one who ultimately scored. On the Lakers, you know it's Kobe first, Pau second. On the Celtics, Pierce gets the ball and makes the decisions most of the time depending on how the other team plays them. With Wade and LeBron, there was uncertainty. LeBron arguably more talented than Wade and arguably the biggest star in the league. Wade a proven closer. Trouble set in when they decided to play hot potato and take turns closing out games. Sometimes, it's a nice problem to have. Last season, in the Finals, not so much.

With Dwight, there's no uncertainty. No question. Wade 1, Dwight 2.

beat me to it

[Findog]

Needing to put a guy alongside Dwight that can create his shot in crunch time is easier to find than the right defensive anchor at C alongside Dirk. It took the Mavs 10 years to find that guy. Perimeter guys that create for themselves are easier to find. I think Howard's limitations are easier to account for than Dirk's.

[Monostradamus]

Needing to put a guy alongside Dwight that can create his shot in crunch time is easier to find than the right defensive anchor at C alongside Dirk. It took the Mavs 10 years to find that guy. Perimeter guys that create for themselves are easier to find. I think Howard's limitations are easier to account for than Dirk's.

But if that's the case is Dwight Howard the guy you're building around anymore? Or is he a building block surrounding another #1?

[Findog]

But if that's the case is Dwight Howard the guy you're building around anymore? Or is he a building block surrounding another #1?

You could have said the same thing about Dirk before June: "If Dirk is such a limited player defensively for a big man, is he a true #1 or a building block surrounding another #1?"

Dirk is actually a fairly decent defender, but Dwight's offense > Dirk's defense.

[Killakobe81]

Dirk is the better passer, scorer, shooter and maybe even post player (dirk is underrated in the mid post) But yet, in still ... Dwight is a better offensive player than dirk is a defensive one. And since Dwight continues to improve on offense and is light years ahead of dirk defensively, you can make a strong case for Dwight. His impact when you take both offense and defense in to account for the Magic is like giving you what 5 or 6 less points on offense? But giving you a better version of Tyson chandler on defense ...

A great debate topic, thanks OP ... My initial response is dirk, but man Dwight is realy good despite his FT shooting and lack of range ...

[Monostradamus]

You could have said the same thing about Dirk before June: "If Dirk is such a limited player defensively for a big man, is he a true #1 or a building block surrounding another #1?"

That's a ridiculous statement and you know it. Nobody was mistaking Tyson Chandler as the #1 on the team. A #1 option on the team means exactly that, he's the #1 scoring option. Defensively he can't be a complete liability, but name me one #1 since Bill Russell that hasn't been the team's go-to guy offensively in the clutch.

[Findog]

That's a ridiculous statement and you know it. Nobody was mistaking Tyson Chandler as the #1 on the team. A #1 option on the team means exactly that, he's the #1 scoring option. Defensively he can't be a complete liability, but name me one #1 since Bill Russell that hasn't been the team's go-to guy offensively in the clutch.

I never said Dwight or Dirk require another #1 beside them. What I did say is that both guys have their limitations: You can't run your O through Howard in crunch time. The Mavs are defensively deficient at one of their front court spots. Howard doesn't need Wade to win a title and Dirk didn't need a center like...well Dwight Howard to win his. What I am saying is that I think perimeter wing players that can create their own shot are easier to find than a defensive center of Tyson's caliber.

[Jose Canseco]

Defensively he can't be a complete liability, but name me one #1 since Bill Russell that hasn't been the team's go-to guy offensively in the clutch.

Assuming you mean championship teams...

Arguably Shaq. Still got touches in crunchtime, but when teams started to implement hack a Shaq more frequently and with Kobe coming into his own offensively, the ball was often in Kobe's hands.

Duncan through the evolution of those 2005 and beyond Spurs with Ginobili and sometimes Parker having the ball in their hands in crunchtime as opposed to Duncan.

Rip Hamilton on those mid 2000s Pistons teams. Offense ran through Rip 80% of the game and Billups was the closer.

[DeadlyDynasty]

I never said Dwight or Dirk require another #1 beside them. What I did say is that both guys have their limitations: You can't run your O through Howard in crunch time. The Mavs are defensively deficient at one of their front court spots. Howard doesn't need Wade to win a title and Dirk didn't need a center like...well Dwight Howard to win his. What I am saying is that I think perimeter wing players that can create their own shot are easier to find than a defensive center of Tyson's caliber.

How so? Dirk played championship-level defense. Come on bro, you know better.

[Monostradamus]

Assuming you mean championship teams...

Arguably Shaq. Still got touches in crunchtime, but when teams started to implement hack a Shaq more frequently and with Kobe coming into his own offensively, the ball was often in Kobe's hands.

Duncan through the evolution of those 2005 and beyond Spurs with Ginobili and sometimes Parker having the ball in their hands in crunchtime as opposed to Duncan.

Rip Hamilton on those mid 2000s Pistons teams. Offense ran through Rip 80% of the game and Billups was the closer.

:lol I'm not talking about another guy taking crunch time shots. Jason Terry takes alot of crunch time shots too but it doesn't mean he's arguable the #1 on Dallas. Both Duncan and Shaq in their primes, when they were winning titles, handled themselves plenty in crunch time as the #1 on the team. It wasn't until Shaq went to Miami that he wasn't in that role, but by then it wasn't even up for debate.

The 05 Pistons are an anomaly but even then almost nobody considered Rip to be the #1 on that team. There were unique in that they had no #1.

[Jose Canseco]

:lol I'm not talking about another guy taking crunch time shots. Jason Terry takes alot of crunch time shots too but it doesn't mean he's arguable the #1 on Dallas. Both Duncan and Shaq in their primes, when they were winning titles, handled themselves plenty in crunch time as the #1 on the team. It wasn't until Shaq went to Miami that he wasn't in that role, but by then it wasn't even up for debate.

The 05 Pistons are an anomaly but even then almost nobody considered Rip to be the #1 on that team. There were unique in that they had no #1.


Neither was I. I specifically was talking about having the ball in Kobe's and Ginobili's hands in crunchtime and them being the go-to guy whether by scoring or making decisions on who the ball would go to for scoring opportunities, not taking shots even though Shaq and Duncan were the team's #1s. And both Shaq and Duncan were still in their primes when that started to happen.

Fair point on the Pistons.

[Monostradamus]

Howard doesn't need Wade to win a title

You don't know that.


I think perimeter wing players that can create their own shot are easier to find than a defensive center of Tyson's caliber.

Well that's a shit argument because JR Smith is a perimeter wing who can create his own shot. So is Monta Ellis. Dwight Howard isn't winning shit with either of them.

How about an elite perimeter wing player who can create his own shot? In that case, I'd argue there's just as many elite defensive centers in the NBA as there are truly clutch perimeter players.

[Monostradamus]

Neither was I. I specifically was talking about having the ball in Kobe's and Ginobili's hands in crunchtime and them being the go-to guy whether by scoring or making decisions on who the ball would go to for scoring opportunities, not taking shots even though Shaq and Duncan were the team's #1s. And both Shaq and Duncan were still in their primes when that started to happen.

Well in that case there's no NBA player in history who ran every single clutch play for every moment for every one of the championships he won with his team.

[stretch]

I'd say Shaq and Duncan both were more than capable of still being the main guy to deliver points in the clutch. In Shaq's case, he had an unusual luxury of having a guy like Kobe at his side (a luxury probably no one in NBA history ever had), but in Duncan's case, it was more a result of defenses being so focused on Duncan, that it created much easier scoring chances for guys like Ginobili and Parker.

[stretch]

I also think its somewhat amusing how people think that being "realistic" and "unbiased" means you basically are willing to take the sides of anyone that chooses against your personal favorite team. I'd almost be willing to bet a billion dollars if this person was a Bulls fan, just to be "unbiased" he would say that there actually is an argument that Kobe is equal or greater of a basketball player than MJ, perhaps even saying Kobe > MJ. :rolleyes

[Jose Canseco]

Well in that case there's no NBA player in history who ran every single clutch play for every moment for every one of the championships he won with his team.

I didn't say every single clutch play.

You asked for examples. I gave a couple.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Perimeter guys that create for themselves are easier to find.
Perimeter guys who can create and sink clutch shots in the 4th quarter of big playoff games aren't easier to find than Tyson Chandler type players.

[HarlemHeat37]

With Howard's vast improvement on offense, I'd go with him, although it's toss-up..I agree with Dok's premise that defense has become overvalued, which is why I believe it's a toss-up, since a legit superstar offensive player(there are only a few in the NBA) that can carry a championship team is a rare commodity..

They are the two most valuable players in the NBA, in respect to their teams, at the moment IMO..

Howard's offense has actually improved dramatically, to the point where he can carry a team offensively, although obviously not to the extent that you would expect from a man carrying the "best big in the NBA" title..

Howard's problem, offensively, is not his actual game anymore(outside of his passing, which is still erratic), it's his mental limitations..he often allows the officials to get in his head, along with certain opponents that play him physically..

Nowitzki is the clutchest player in the NBA, without a doubt IMO..obviously his primary advantage, since Howard has him dominated in defense and rebounding..Dirk has improved defensively, but he's still an average defender, at best..

Toss-up, depending on team needs..

[DMC]

Dirk is the most effective player in the NBA, on the team in which he plays. He wouldn't be the best in an All Star talent pool, because he's not that good on the defensive end. He's not the best player in the game. There's plenty Dirk cannot do, and the court has both ends.

[Monostradamus]

You asked for examples. I gave a couple.

Just because Manu/Parker and Kobe had the ball in their hands during crunch time didn't mean Duncan and Shaq weren't still the go-to guys offensively for their team. They were still the focal point of the offense.

[DMC]

I also think its somewhat amusing how people think that being "realistic" and "unbiased" means you basically are willing to take the sides of anyone that chooses against your personal favorite team. I'd almost be willing to bet a billion dollars if this person was a Bulls fan, just to be "unbiased" he would say that there actually is an argument that Kobe is equal or greater of a basketball player than MJ, perhaps even saying Kobe > MJ. :rolleyes

I would bet a trillion dollars.

[HarlemHeat37]

As for Howard to Miami, I wouldn't make the trade..Miami's problems had very little to do with their lack of distinction in their clutch time roles..Lebron choked, that's all that matters..up to that point, the only player that meant more to his team in the playoffs, statistically, was Nowitzki..

Like Dok said, the Heat were 2 wins away from a title, despite Lebron choking, despite playing D-league caliber players in the rotation, despite major injuries to the 4th and 5th best players on the team, and despite having an inexperienced, poor coach and no chemistry..

[Jose Canseco]

Dirk is the most effective player in the NBA, on the team in which he plays. He wouldn't be the best in an All Star talent pool, because he's not that good on the defensive end. He's not the best player in the game. There's plenty Dirk cannot do, and the court has both ends.

Don't know if I agree 100% with that (I'd have to think about that for a few), but it's a great way to put it. For what Dallas needs from it's franchise player, Dirk provides it to a tee. So it really depends on what is asked from the star player of the team. Obviously Dirk on a team like Golden State might put up similar numbers, probably better numbers, but it likely wouldn't make Golden State a championship team as they are built right now.

[Monostradamus]

Wake me up when the alley-oop becomes a viable crunch time play for Orlando. Then I'll take Howard. Until then I'll take about 10 other guys in the NBA before him.

[stretch]

You don't know that.

:lmao good point

Howard hasn't even won a title, so how can someone say that he doesn't need a legit wing player at his side to win a title, something that virtually every dominant center in history has needed in order to win a title?

And for fucks sake, Howard got his ass handed to him by Pau fucking Gasol. Even Dirk doesnt let Gasol do jack shit on him, and we are led to believe that Howards defense = or > Dirks offense??? GMAFB

Howards offense > Dirks defense

but

Dirks offense >>> Howards defense

Until Howard proves he can actually be a legit #1 scoring threat, or can rebound and defend his way to a championship as a #1 scorer that isnt a considerable scoring threat (something that only Bill Russell has been able to accomplish, which happened in an era where he by far had the most stacked team in the league, and overall competition was complete shit), there is no legit argument that exists that Howard > Dirk. I have said that before Dirk won it all, and believe it 100x more now that Dirk did win it all.

[Jose Canseco]

Just because Manu/Parker and Kobe had the ball in their hands during crunch time didn't mean Duncan and Shaq weren't still the go-to guys offensively for their team. They were still the focal point of the offense.


Agree. However, you made the distinction in your proposed question between #1 guy and being the go-to guy in the clutch. There's very much the argument that the examples provided were of Shaq and Duncan being the #1 guys on their teams but Kobe and Ginobili the go-to guys in the clutch. Doesn't mean Shaq and Duncan never touched the ball in crunchtime or never took shots in crunchtime. But the basketball and offense and decision making in crunchtime would be in the hands of someone else.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Like Dok said, the Heat were 2 wins away from a title, despite Lebron choking, despite playing D-league caliber players in the rotation, despite major injuries to the 4th and 5th best players on the team, and despite having an inexperienced, poor coach and no chemistry..
Tbh if it's true SamDam has agreed to go to Miami for the MLE (assuming there is an MLE after the new CBA) there's especially no reason for them to trade Lebron for Dwight.

[HarlemHeat37]

Howard was the best player on a team that made the NBA Finals, it's not like he's Chris Bosh or Yao Ming, he has had some playoff success..

If you need a player to carry the offensive load on a team that has limited offensive options, obviously you go with Nowitzki..however, if your team needs more of an "all-around player", which a lot of teams need, I don't see how you can pass on Howard..

[Monostradamus]

Howard was the best player on a team that made the NBA Finals, it's not like he's McGrady or Yao Ming, he has had some playoff success..

yeah he only needed 4-5 players on the team to have career years all at the same time, with those guys hitting every big shot in the playoffs to get there.

[stretch]

clutch defense is almost always a product of a great team scheme (see this years Dallas Mavericks defense, along with many others who needed several solid players and a good scheme, as opposed to one defensive player that shuts everyone down on his own)

clutch offense is almost always a product of a dominant scorer (see MJ, Kobe, Bird, and others telling everyone to give them the ball and get the fuck out of their way)


Dirk > Howard

[DPG21920]

:lmao good point

Howard hasn't even won a title, so how can someone say that he doesn't need a legit wing player at his side to win a title, something that virtually every dominant center in history has needed in order to win a title?

And for fucks sake, Howard got his ass handed to him by Pau fucking Gasol. Even Dirk doesnt let Gasol do jack shit on him, and we are led to believe that Howards defense = or > Dirks offense??? GMAFB

Howards offense > Dirks defense

but

Dirks offense >>> Howards defense

Until Howard proves he can actually be a legit #1 scoring threat, or can rebound and defend his way to a championship as a #1 scorer that isnt a considerable scoring threat (something that only Bill Russell has been able to accomplish, which happened in an era where he by far had the most stacked team in the league, and overall competition was complete shit), there is no legit argument that exists that Howard > Dirk. I have said that before Dirk won it all, and believe it 100x more now that Dirk did win it all.

Back with the shitty arrow argument again I see.

[stretch]

Back with the shitty arrow argument again I see.

back with not saying shit because you dont have shit to say, and when you do, its because your ass is bleeding over the fact that you are/were dead fucking wrong

[DPG21920]

So basically, Mav fan is admitting that Dirk was not legit main guy until this year.

[Monostradamus]

So basically, Mav fan is admitting that Dirk was not legit main guy until this year.

just that he was more legit than Dwight Howard.

[stretch]

So basically, Mav fan is admitting that Dirk was not legit main guy until this year.

No, Dirk has been a legit main guy for a while now. Especially starting with the series against New Orleans, which is where if you watched him, you could see his offensive diversity had grown and you could no longer scheme for him, without sending 3 guys at him. Unfortunately he simply did not have a very good team.

[DPG21920]

just that he was more legit than Dwight Howard.

Why? Before this year, Dwight led a team to an NBA final a lot faster than Dirk did and didn't have nearly the amount of playoff failures and collapses.

[DPG21920]

No, Dirk has been a legit main guy for a while now. Especially starting with the series against New Orleans, which is where if you watched him, you could see his offensive diversity had grown and you could no longer scheme for him, without sending 3 guys at him. Unfortunately he simply did not have a very good team.

:lmao, so now we can assume Dirk was good enough and a "main guy" all those year with massive playoff failures, but "you don't know that about Dwight yet" because he hasn't won.

So like I said, Mav fan is saying Dirk wasn't legit before this year.

[Monostradamus]

Why? Before this year, Dwight led a team to an NBA final a lot faster than Dirk did and didn't have nearly the amount of playoff failures and collapses.

lol "led"

Rashard & Hedo hit every big shot to get them there, but yeah Dwight "led"

[Killakobe81]

:lmao good point

Howard hasn't even won a title, so how can someone say that he doesn't need a legit wing player at his side to win a title, something that virtually every dominant center in history has needed in order to win a title?
And for fucks sake, Howard got his ass handed to him by Pau fucking Gasol. Even Dirk doesnt let Gasol do jack shit on him, and we are led to believe that Howards defense = or > Dirks offense??? GMAFB

Howards offense > Dirks defense

but

Dirks offense >>> Howards defense

Until Howard proves he can actually be a legit #1 scoring threat, or can rebound and defend his way to a championship as a #1 scorer that isnt a considerable scoring threat (something that only Bill Russell has been able to accomplish, which happened in an era where he by far had the most stacked team in the league, and overall competition was complete shit), there is no legit argument that exists that Howard > Dirk. I have said that before Dirk won it all, and believe it 100x more now that Dirk did win it all.

People forget that. Sure it's easier to win with a dominant big man, but David could not win without Duncan, Kareem needed Oscar and Magic, Shaq needed Kobe and wade ...

But flipside Dirk did not win without Tyson anchoring the defense either, title teams usually have both.

[Monostradamus]

:lmao, so now we can assume Dirk was good enough and a "main guy" all those year with massive playoff failures, but "you don't know that about Dwight yet" because he hasn't won.

So like I said, Mav fan is saying Dirk wasn't legit before this year.

this isn't a new concept. winning a ring changes your entire legacy.

[DPG21920]

:lmao Hedo and Rashard = stacked.

But Josh Howard in his career years and Terry = Not enough

[DPG21920]

this isn't a new concept. winning a ring changes your entire legacy.

I didn't debate that, I said that before he won a ring, he wasn't a legit main man by Mav fan logic.

[HarlemHeat37]

He led them in points, rebounds, blocks, FG% and every advanced stat possible, in the playoffs, what else do you want?:lol..

Dirk's 2011 playoff performance >> Howard's 2009 playoff performance, but Howard legitimately led a team to the Finals, this is a fact..both guys received a lot of help from 3-point shooters, both teams were defensive teams that relied on the outside jump shot..

Nowitzki is the clutchest player in the NBA, but we have reached a point where a lot of NBA fans are of the belief that clutch play is the only proper assessment of evaluating the worth of an NBA superstar..

Howard's offensive repertoire is much improved from 2009, this is not the same player that couldn't dominate Pau Gasol..

[Monostradamus]

:lmao Hedo and Rashard = stacked.

But Josh Howard in his career years and Terry = Not enough

Yeah I forgot it was Josh Howard who made the 3 point play to force an overtime in Game 7 vs SA.

[DPG21920]

All I know is Hedo & Shard's 17 PPG Playoff AVG in their title run was a lot more than Terry & Josh's 17 PPG Playoff AVG in their title run.

[Monostradamus]

I didn't debate that, I said that before he won a ring, he wasn't a legit main man by Mav fan logic.

You aren't good enough to win one until you do. Then you are and always have been. I'm not saying it's right, just saying that's how it is.

[lefty]

Jizz moping

Fap fap fap

[Monostradamus]

All I know is Hedo & Shard's 17 PPG Playoff AVG in their title run was a lot more than Terry & Josh's 17 PPG Playoff AVG in their title run.

hey where's that youtube video of Dwight Howard hitting a clutch shot to help win a series! oh wait

[Killakobe81]

He led them in points, rebounds, blocks, FG% and every advanced stat possible, in the playoffs, what else do you want?:lol..

Dirk's 2011 playoff performance >> Howard's 2009 playoff performance, but Howard legitimately led a team to the Finals, this is a fact..both guys received a lot of help from 3-point shooters, both teams were defensive teams that relied on the outside jump shot..

Nowitzki is the clutchest player in the NBA, but we have reached a point where a lot of NBA fans are of the belief that clutch play is the only proper assessment of evaluating the worth of an NBA superstar..

I agree that the his run was pretty amazing, but Howard led some fairly marginal stars to the Finals. By comparison the Mavs were stacked. Dont get me wrong, Terry is not a stud#2 but offensively (scoring) he is more reliable than Hedo or Rashard TBH ... Howard was a beast thoseplayoffs when not in foul trouble ...especially on defense offense? meh

[Monostradamus]

Jizz moping

Fap fap fap

tbh why does that gif say "Josh" when he's buttfucking Demarcus Cousins?

[DPG21920]

Also, Dirk, at best is a slightly below average defender. So saying:

Howards offense > Dirks defense

but

Dirks offense >>> Howards defense

Is retarded unless you are saying averaging 23PPG on 60% shooting is slightly below average.

[DPG21920]

hey where's that youtube video of Dwight Howard hitting a clutch shot to help win a series! oh wait

Hey that was relevant to that post.

[Monostradamus]

Also, Dirk, at best is a slightly below average defender. So saying:

Howards offense > Dirks defense

but

Dirks offense >>> Howards defense

Is retarded unless you are saying averaging 23PPG on 60% shooting is slightly below average.

alley-oops, an NBA crunch time move for decades.

[Killakobe81]

Also, Dirk, at best is a slightly below average defender. So saying:

Howards offense > Dirks defense

but

Dirks offense >>> Howards defense

Is retarded unless you are saying averaging 23PPG on 60% shooting is slightly below average.

Don't side with DPG a lot, but he has a point here ....

[Monostradamus]

I don't know what you guys are arguing about, Dirk is obviously a main guy because he won the championship as a main guy with a roster nobody thought he could win with. I know we were all hard on Dirk after the failures but it was a bit unfair and now there is nothing you can take away from the guy. Probably rightfully should have another ring in 06, too. I was wrong about Dirk but being wrong isn't something anyone here can or will ever fess up to, that's just Spurstalk.

tbh being wrong bout dem Mavs :smokin is enough to get some people all butthurt anytime Dirk's name is brought up now.

[Killakobe81]

alley-oops, an NBA crunch time move for decades.

That was true in most of 2009 but he started umproving on offrense that year and has gotten better in the post and increased his range the past two years.

Sure, he still needs work. But Dwight is narrowing a gap on offense that Dirk has no chance of closing on defense ....

[DPG21920]

I know one thing for sure, Howard getting 17 PPG on AVG from Shard/Hedo does prove that he had more support than Dirk when Terry/Howard only averaged 17PPG on AVG. That much is clear.

[Killakobe81]

Dirk I admit, I was beginning to doubt he would be able to win it all as a#1 ... I admit when I am wrong he is a badass.

[Monostradamus]

I know one thing for sure, Howard getting 17 PPG on AVG from Shard/Hedo does prove that he had more support than Dirk when Terry/Howard only averaged 17PPG on AVG. That much is clear.

:lol

It proves it when most of those 17 PPG on AVG came in the fourth quarter for Dwight, as opposed to "Show up in the first quarter, get high and disappear for the rest of the game" J-Ho.

[HarlemHeat37]

Would Dwight have won the championship this year with Dirk's supporting cast? Or even one better suited to his "talents" but equal in mediocrity talent wise?

No, because the Mavs needed Nowitzki's clutch heroics, as much, or more, than any other team..they had a lot of close games, where they needed Dirk to make big shots, which Howard would not be able to do..the disparity in Nowitzki and Howard's overall impact, isn't enough to negate the Mavs' reliance on Nowitzki in clutch time, especially in this particular scenario..

As I said, the reason it's a toss-up, IMO, is because of Nowitzki's superior clutch time ability..otherwise, I would take Howard, because of his superior impact in various, key fields..

I would also take Nowitzki over Lebron, Shaq, Duncan, etc in clutch time, but I don't think he is a better player than any of them..

[DPG21920]

Totally proves it.

[Monostradamus]

Totally proves it.

I know.

[Killakobe81]

Would Dwight have won the championship this year with Dirk's supporting cast? Or even one better suited to his "talents" but equal in mediocrity talent wise?

TC, I agree I said right now, especially after last season it's Dirk. he was amazing. But my point is Dwight is improving every year on offense (strange enough dirk is too) but if Dirk is >>>than Dwight on offense Howard is at least that on defense and Howard may cut it to just > while I dont think the gap defensively is changing.

Still say Dirk is the greater player but probably not for long. I love Dwight howard fault in all. he is the only guy right now that anyone in the NBA would consider trading Lebron (choke included) straight up for. I garuntee Heat would have to at least conisder that trade if the Magic offered ...

As much as dirk embarssed Lebron in the 4th quarters no way Riley makes that trade.

BTW I said many time on here in the playoffs dirk had the best shooting season I have ever seen and i have been watching ball since 1980 of anyone, Bird included. Dirk pretty much stayed hot all season and playoffs.

[DPG21920]

You can definitely make an argument for Dirk over Dwight, but the argument MK is making is just a little silly.

[mavs>spurs]

Howard's only 25 and already scores 23 points a game without a polished low-post game. I don't think he has to be Hakeem on the low block to be the #1 on a title team. At 25 how many people thought Dirk could be the #1 on a title team? I think Howard is ahead of where Dirk was when he was 25.

T-Mac was such a badass scorer when he was 25, and only a few years later as of right now hes not half the player he was. if KD had som offensive game like TD has he would be a GOAT no doubt, even w/o some neat O game he's still a top 5 playa of the league which is well fair to say. dirk is the leader of a champion team he's indispensable to dem mavs, and the german allah has gained loads of personal honors as well, but DH is the better player in terms of overall ability and he should be my #1 choice ova dirk if i were to build a franchise at this point of time

dem mavs are on success mode while the magic are obviously underachieving and DH might be leaving this team soon, which whereas doesn't mean DH is less important a player to his team then dirk to dem mavs imho. swap dirk & DH and both teams are weakened

[Monostradamus]

You can definitely make an argument for Dirk over Dwight, but the argument MK is making is just a little silly.

MK doesn't exist anymore.

[DPG21920]

Yes it does as long as these shit arguments are still around :lol

[mavs>spurs]

TC, I agree I said right now, especially after last season it's Dirk. he was amazing. But my point is Dwight is improving every year on offense (strange enough dirk is too) but if Dirk is >>>than Dwight on offense Howard is at least that on defense and Howard may cut it to just > while I dont think the gap defensively is changing.

Still say Dirk is the greater player but probably not for long. I love Dwight howard fault in all. he is the only guy right now that anyone in the NBA would consider trading Lebron (choke included) straight up for. I garuntee Heat would have to at least conisder that trade if the Magic offered ...

As much as dirk embarssed Lebron in the 4th quarters no way Riley makes that trade.

BTW I said many time on here in the playoffs dirk had the best shooting season I have ever seen and i have been watching ball since 1980 of anyone, Bird included. Dirk pretty much stayed hot all season and playoffs.
DH has drawn more glamour on the stage imho that was due in big part to the position he plays when he isn't really THAT great imho. Dirk & DH are different style of players its just nonsense to make a parallel comparison between dem two imho. DH would be my choice if i were to build a new young franchise from the ground up but if im keen to win something right now i'd take dirk in an eye wink

[mavs>spurs]

Yes it does as long as these shit arguments are still around :lol

agree, some picklebreath arbitrarily disbanded this group when he had no privilege to do so.

[Monostradamus]

agree, some picklebreath arbitrarily disbanded this group when he had no privilege to do so.

I didn't disband shit. I left the krew and signed with a rival. it was another picklebreath and a yid who disbanded the group with no right to do so.

[DPG21920]

Hey, I'm here to talk basketball.

[DMC]

I think Dirk has been a legit main guy for quite some time. He just hasn't had the team around him to win the ring, or when he did, Miami didn't cooperate. The Mavs were no slouches in 06, even though they shit the bed in the Finals.

Of course, I say "main guy" with a caveat that Dirk cannot put the team on his shoulders with a "just give me the ball and get out of the way" approach like some others could. Dirk has his spots, and he needs movement away from the ball by other players in order to be effective. He also needs a legit big to body up in the paint and get offensive boards because although he's a great shooter, he's not the only one on the team who shoots.

Dirk is soft on defense. That means the guy he's covering doesn't get molested too much and has more energy at both ends of the floor. So, for those points Dirk scores, he gives plenty back on defense.

Most teams just have no answer for the guy though. No one can block his shot, so he's not even worried about it and is able to follow through without blinking an eye, even under pressure.

[mavs>spurs]

I didn't disband shit. I left the krew and signed with a rival. it was another picklebreath and a yid who disbanded the group with no right to do so.
its fine to quit dat krew whenever you want especially at a time when you've already lost your armband to ghazi- da new leader of the MK, however it'd be a whole different story if someone hits back @ the krew wit false comments right after his departure.

badfish is a shitty poster i agree on dis one, but who was in charge of the MK at that time when badfish was recruited?

[Killakobe81]

DH has drawn more glamour on the stage imho that was due in big part to the position he plays when he isn't really THAT great imho. Dirk & DH are different style of players its just nonsense to make a parallel comparison between dem two imho. DH would be my choice if i were to build a new young franchise from the ground up but if im keen to win something right now i'd take dirk in an eye wink

I think to be fair, Dwight plays at a position where he is head and shoulders above his peers while Dirk has a a few contenders at his spot (KG, Randolph,Pau, Amare, Zbo, aldridge, KG Blake and Horford)

So Dwight is the best of a weak group of centers but he has been one of the better post defenders of the past 20 years right along David, Tim, Dikembe, Zo, Ben wallace etc.

[LnGrrrR]

Right now? Tough one, but I say Dirk. If I had to pick one guy to roll with in the playoffs, it's him.

[ElNono]

Rememba dat time when Dirk took a shit on Lebron and... I forgot where this post was going.

[Findog]

Okay, here's another one from this list:

http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2011/08/15/top-100-nba-players-nos-11-20/

True or False: Carmelo Anthony is the 20th-best player in basketball. There's 19 guys better than him.

[Findog]

but name me one #1 since Bill Russell that hasn't been the team's go-to guy offensively in the clutch.

Dennis Johnson - 79 Sonics.

[HarlemHeat37]

No, but top 100 lists from media outlets are always atrocious..

Westbrick has no business being at 12th IMO, Pierce is too high, Garnett is too high, Amare and Carmelo are too low, Duncan might be too high, Parker is too high, Rudy Gay is too high, Gordon is too high, Iguodala is way too high, Odom is too high, Tyreke Evans is way too high, Gerald Wallace is way too high, Noah is way too high..that's just a quick glance of the top 50, alone..

[Monostradamus]

Dennis Johnson - 79 Sonics.

Was he truly the undisputed #1 on that team, or were they a 04 Pistons style anomaly?

[Venti Quattro]

Okay, here's another one from this list:

http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2011/08/15/top-100-nba-players-nos-11-20/

True or False: Carmelo Anthony is the 20th-best player in basketball. There's 19 guys better than him.

That's a lot.

[Monostradamus]

Okay, here's another one from this list:

http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2011/08/15/top-100-nba-players-nos-11-20/

True or False: Carmelo Anthony is the 20th-best player in basketball. There's 19 guys better than him.

From what I see in that article, I'd say putting Nash and Manu ahead of him is completely obtuse, Pierce/KG ahead of him is a joke as well, and the rest are at least debatable, but I'd still put Carmelo ahead of them (except maybe Amare and Griffin).

Why is it that everybody knee-jerks about everything in basketball? Was Carmelo overrated when people called him a top 5 player? Yes, absolutely. But now to have him barely make a top 20 list?

[stretch]

:lmao, so now we can assume Dirk was good enough and a "main guy" all those year with massive playoff failures, but "you don't know that about Dwight yet" because he hasn't won.

completely different situations for both

dirk was out there balling his ass off, being a complete matchup nightmare for the other team, getting constantly doubled and tripled and still finding ways to kick teams asses. his playoff stats after the Golden State series have been tremendously great.

Dwight on the other hand, got shut down in the finals by fucking Pau Gasol, and also got his ass kicked by Gasol trying to defend him as well.

Neither guy had great supporting casts, but the difference is, Dirk was completely dominant even when losing his series. But Dwight would noticably shrink away. This past year is the first year it seems like he legitimately worked on his offensive game, and it definitely showed, but he still has a lot of work to do. He still relies too much on putbacks and alley-oops for points, as opposed to creating his own offense, or creating for his teammates. He has a poor assist-to-turnover ratio, and many times looks completely befuddled when getting doubled in the post, not knowing where the hell to pass the ball, despite being surrounded by great 3pt shooters.

[stretch]

its hilarious how much blood has been seeping out of DPGs ass on a daily basis ever since the Mavs started to make a serious push for the title this year while the Spurs got their asses kicked in the first round, after DPG said about 10000000000x times that the Spurs would get farther than the Mavs, and insisted anyone who disagreed with him has a fucking mental disorder. now he has to reach and say that alley-oop catching is a great clutch move and is proof that Dwight Howard is an unstoppable scorer that is superior to Dirk as a basketball player.

[Venti Quattro]

now he has to reach and say that alley-oop catching is a great clutch move and is proof that Dwight Howard is an unstoppable scorer that is superior to Dirk as a basketball player.

Where the fuck did he say this? :lmao

lol sorry too lazy to backread

crofl backreading

[Venti Quattro]

In other news, Blake Griffin has interned for Funny or Die.

[Axe Murderer]

Howard has a good post game. Not sure why people are calling him an alley oop machine. I can't think of many guys in the NBA that have a better post game then him.

I think we were all just spoiled by Duncan and Shaq who are once in a lifetime players

[stretch]

Howard has a good post game. Not sure why people are calling him an alley oop machine. I can't think of many guys in the NBA that have a better post game then him.

I think we were all just spoiled by Duncan and Shaq who are once in a lifetime players

not saying he doesnt have a good post game, but its still not reliable against elite defenses in crunchtime. when good defensive teams want to, they can turn him into a nearly ineffective offensive player without too much trouble. can't say the same about Dirk, and havent been able to ever since the GS series. he did a great job after that series of developing more versatility to his offensive game and learning how to set up his teammates with easy basket opportunities when he draws heavy defensive attentions. unfortunately, until this year, he didnt have teammates that would step up and make those plays when they were there for them.

about the only thing Dwight can do for his teammates is draw a double and toss it out for a 3-pt shot, but half the time he ends up turning it over, or not making the right pass. he is still needing to develop that aspect of his game.

[Monostradamus]

I can't think of many guys in the NBA that have a better post game then him.

Really? I can name a whole lot.

Gasol
Gasol
Bynum
Lopez
Jefferson
Randolph
Duncan
Dirk
Aldridge
Scola
Brand
Odom
Cousins
Bogut

probably can think of a few more too.

[Monostradamus]

not traditional post players but Kobe and Billups both have far more polished post games than Howard. Carmelo too.

[lefty]

I hate Howard's game

Overrated POS

[LnGrrrR]

I just can't choose Dwight because he breaks down mentally at times. He picks up stupid technicals, and pretty much acts like a 15 year old on the court when he doesn't get a call he likes.

[pass1st]

If D12 keeps improving and this isn't his prime, he has the potential to be better than Dirk when all is said and done. At any rate, D12 has much better defense while Dirk has much better offense. Dirk depends more on skill, D12 depends mainly on athleticism.

Skill = Dirk
Potential = D12

Dirk is better now, but if Dwight can at least develop footwork and conduct his game more professionally (get less technicals, etc) then it will be a good argument.

[stretch]

If D12 keeps improving and this isn't his prime, he has the athleticism to possibly be better than Dirk when all is said and done. At any rate, D12 has much better defense while Dirk has much better offense. Dirk depends more on skill, D12 depends mainly on athleticism.

Skill = Dirk
Athleticism= D12

Dirk is better now, but if Dwight can at least develop footwork and conduct his game more professionally (get less technicals, etc) then it will be a good argument.

fify

[TE]

Dwight Howard's athleticism gets the best of him.

[DPG21920]

Lmao Stretch making shit up about what I said and calling me butt hurt randomly. I never dog anyone without stating why and just because it doesn't work out doesn't mean the logic wasn't sound.

I have been far from butthurt.

[DPG21920]

:lmao good point

Howard hasn't even won a title, so how can someone say that he doesn't need a legit wing player at his side to win a title, something that virtually every dominant center in history has needed in order to win a title?

And for fucks sake, Howard got his ass handed to him by Pau fucking Gasol. Even Dirk doesnt let Gasol do jack shit on him, and we are led to believe that Howards defense = or > Dirks offense??? GMAFB

Howards offense > Dirks defense

but

Dirks offense >>> Howards defense

Until Howard proves he can actually be a legit #1 scoring threat, or can rebound and defend his way to a championship as a #1 scorer that isnt a considerable scoring threat (something that only Bill Russell has been able to accomplish, which happened in an era where he by far had the most stacked team in the league, and overall competition was complete shit), there is no legit argument that exists that Howard > Dirk. I have said that before Dirk won it all, and believe it 100x more now that Dirk did win it all.


Also, Dirk, at best is a slightly below average defender. So saying:

Howards offense > Dirks defense

but

Dirks offense >>> Howards defense

Is retarded unless you are saying averaging 23PPG on 60% shooting is slightly below average.

I guess that makes you butthurt

[Jose Canseco]

Dwight made tremendous strides with his post game this past season, but I still think he has a long way to go to becoming a consistent and dependable post scorer, especially late in games against quality defense. And being a good post scorer in today's NBA doesn't say much as low post scoring is a lost art now with very few really good post scorers left in the league. Part of Dwight's problem is he is top heavy. For all his upper body strength and athleticism, he doesn't have the Barkley or Shaq backside to really root out post defenders for great position.

Plus his moves are still rather rudimentary. You'll see Dwight make a couple fancy moves that actually impress you and then he'll come back down five feet away from the basket and throw a hook that will hit the top of the backboard and miss the rim completely. His touch around the rim is still very much suspect.

[stretch]

:cry :cry :cry

[mavs>spurs]

not saying he doesnt have a good post game, but its still not reliable against elite defenses in crunchtime. when good defensive teams want to, they can turn him into a nearly ineffective offensive player without too much trouble. can't say the same about Dirk, and havent been able to ever since the GS series. he did a great job after that series of developing more versatility to his offensive game and learning how to set up his teammates with easy basket opportunities when he draws heavy defensive attentions. unfortunately, until this year, he didnt have teammates that would step up and make those plays when they were there for them.

about the only thing Dwight can do for his teammates is draw a double and toss it out for a 3-pt shot, but half the time he ends up turning it over, or not making the right pass. he is still needing to develop that aspect of his game.
DH plays fine offensively at the low post tbh averaging 23pts or shit, but its obvious that DH could've done better w/ such excellent athleticism he has. just like we say dirk could have rebounded better when he's 7ft tall but only gets 7reb per game. if DH had a similar level of offensive ability as TD he would've dominate da shit out of the league quite easily

[Tradition]

No, I wouldn't trade Lebron for Howard. The Heat will be ok once Lebron comes back with a post game and once Miami stuffs up on that humble pie and adds a center.

They were very disrespectful to the league and to the game this season. The 2 wins away saying is bullshit. The 08 Lakers were 2 wins away as well. Hell they were 1 half away from being in position of winning that series.

It doesn't matter how close you get, there are no moral victories in a championship round.They lost in the finals which now cuts their window down to 2 years(it will be down to 1 year if the season gets cancelled). Wade is going to decline rapidly by then. He will have lost his athleticism and will be very injury prone and limited.

[HarlemHeat37]

I understand the overall premise of your post, but the 2008 Lakers were 2 wins away, which meant they were close to a title, by definition and by logic..how did they respond to the Finals loss?..they won 2 titles in a row:lol..they were clearly the best team in their conference, they weren't too far from a title, and they were in a similar position, where they had very little competition, throughout the league, in the following years, in regards to other dominant teams..

The Heat were 2 wins away, despite all of the flaws that can be realistically fixed, in a league that currently lacks a dominant team(also, even lacking "up and coming" dominant teams, as OKC and the Bulls are significantly more flawed than Miami)..teams like the Celtics and Lakers are clearly on the decline..

[HarlemHeat37]

As for Howard, he actually created more offense for himself than Dirk, Gasol, Bynum, Odom, Blake Griffin, Gasol, Bosh, West, Aldridge, Duncan, Garnett, Al Jefferson, and virtually any other competent big man..

Statistically, the only two big men to create more offense for themselves, this season, were Zach Randolph and Amare Stoudemire..

Another note on Howard..his jump shot % from 10 feet out until the 3-point line has improved by 20%, since his rookie season..he shot 37% from that range this season, 40% from 10-15 feet, which is actually very solid for a guy of his build, and considering his previous limitations..

[Tradition]

I understand the overall premise of your post, but the 2008 Lakers were 2 wins away, which meant they were close to a title, by definition and by logic..how did they respond to the Finals loss?..they won 2 titles in a row:lol..they were clearly the best team in their conference, they weren't too far from a title, and they were in a similar position, where they had very little competition, throughout the league, in the following years, in regards to other dominant teams..

The Heat were 2 wins away, despite all of the flaws that can be realistically fixed, in a league that currently lacks a dominant team(also, even lacking "up and coming" dominant teams, as OKC and the Bulls are significantly more flawed than Miami)..teams like the Celtics and Lakers are clearly on the decline..


WTF are you doing back? I thought you were gone from these boards if Miami failed? :lol

[FkLA]

mavfans' (with the exception of the godfather) takes are hilarious, its funny how much these chinks worship dirk :lol

[FkLA]

Funny how Howard's lack of a polished offensive game is at the center of their argument while Dirk's defense gets swept under the rug. :lol

Only a complete idiot/dirk fanboy chink would take Dirk over Dwight. A championship doesnt change that. Dirk's great offensive game doesnt change that. You dont take a great offensive player over a player putting up 23 ppg while simultaneously being the biggest defensive force in the league. Its much easier to build around Dwight then it was around Dirk, Otis Smith just happens to be an idiot.

[Venti Quattro]

Is it okay to say though that Dwight and LeBron are on the same plateau...they both haven't developed a consistent post game.

[Venti Quattro]

Funny how Howard's lack of a polished offensive game is at the center of their argument while Dirk's defense gets swept under the rug. :lol

Only a complete idiot/dirk fanboy chink would take Dirk over Dwight. A championship doesnt change that. Dirk's great offensive game doesnt change that. You dont take a great offensive player over a player putting up 23 ppg while simultaneously being the biggest defensive force in the league. Its much easier to build around Dwight then it was around Dirk, Otis Smith just happens to be an idiot.

It's easier to take Dirk because Dwight is a mental midget. Dirk has shittier teammates but he is not a mental midget.

[DeadlyDynasty]

It's easier to take Dirk because Dwight is a mental midget. Dirk has shittier teammates but he is not a mental midget.

lolwut?

[DPG21920]

Ball.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Ball.
Don't talk shit about the guy Cully said would take the S:lolns to the fin:lolls

[DeadlyDynasty]

yeah barea and old ass jason terry are quality 2nd options

Are you really going to make the argument that Orlando's supporting cast was better than Dallas' this past year?

[Venti Quattro]

lolwut?

You're right. What I meant is that Dirk also had mental midgets for teammates in the past but that has been put to rest now.

crofl Venti Quattro's basketball takes

crofl making excuses

[FkLA]

Dwight seems to be too goofy and seems to lack that killer instinct, but where does the mental midget label come from? I cant think of a big game where I saw Dwight play where I was thinking...wow this nigga choked. Meanwhile Dirks had his share of those games and prior to this season was rightfully considered a choker.

Yall niggas are putting too much stock into how great of a closer Dirk is. Like Harlem said hes been a better closer than Duncan, Shaq, Garnett throughout this decade...that dont mean hes been a better player than any of them though. Same here, Dirks offensive greatness & clutchness doesnt override Dwights 23 ppg & his defensive impact.

[DeadlyDynasty]

Dwight seems to be too goofy and seems to lack that killer instinct, but where does the mental midget label come from? I cant think of a big game where I saw Dwight play where I was thinking...wow this nigga choked. Meanwhile Dirks had his share of those games and prior to this season was rightfully considered a choker.

Yall niggas are putting too much stock into how great of a closer Dirk is. Like Harlem said hes been a better closer than Duncan, Shaq, Garnett throughout this decade...that dont mean hes been a better player than any of them though. Same here, Dirks offensive greatness & clutchness doesnt override Dwights 23 ppg & his defensive impact.

Game 4 of the 2009 Finals when he went Nick Anderson at the FT line (w/ a 3 point lead)

[FkLA]

Game 4 of the 2009 Finals when he went Nick Anderson at the FT line (w/ a 3 point lead)

Nigga shoots in the 50s% from the line, Id hardly call that choking. Dirks miss in 06' against the Heat though, that was a choke. :)

[DeadlyDynasty]

Nigga shoots in the 50s% from the line, Id hardly call that choking. Dirks miss in 06' against the Heat though, that was a choke. :)

Shooting 50% at the line on that trip would've sealed a Magic win and tied the series at 2 apiece. He's there #1 and leader of that team...gotta sink one of those. He choked there, but yeah...he's not really known to be a career choker.

[Stalin]

Dirk has been choking his whole career, while having stacked teams, and one of the highest payrolls, year after year. He finally gets lucky, after spurs and lakers decline, and now mavfan is fapping to this nazi fuck, and saying he's the best in the league. :lol

[lefty]

Shooting 50% at the line on that trip would've sealed a Magic win and tied the series at 2 apiece. He's there #1 and leader of that team...gotta sink one of those. He choked there, but yeah...he's not really known to be a career choker.
Brian Hill was worse though

He tried to be so fucking nice.......they should have fouled Kenny Smith instead of letting him take that game tying 3 pointer

After the game, when asked why he didnt tell his players to foul Smith, he said that he wasn't that type of coach

Yeah, look where that got you

[Leetonidas]

Better now is easily Dirk. But as far as who would I take on my team going forward? Easily Howard. Dude is like 24 years old still, his best years are ahead of him. I mean he took a team featuring Turkoglu, Rashard Lewis, and J.J. Reddick to the Finals, not as impressive as Dirk winning this season but still

[Venti Quattro]

I don't know if this has been brought up but since we are talking about Dwight vs Dirk here:

2011 dem Mavs vs 2009 Magic -- who wins in a seven-game series?

[Leetonidas]

Hmm good question, I was inclined to say the Mavericks but I'm not too sure after thinking about it. Outside of the two main players who are both top 5 players in the league the rest of the teams are very close. I'd take Mavs because Van Gundy sucks ass as a coach and Carlisle has always been a good one.

[lefty]

I don't know if this has been brought up but since we are talking about Dwight vs Dirk here:

2011 dem Mavs vs 2009 Magic -- who wins in a seven-game series?
Good question

They had Pietrus and he wasn't lazy back then.
Turkoglu had by far his best postseason.
Both players offered matchup problems.

I've always thought that Rafer Alston was the perfect PG to run that team, he always set the perfect tempo; never been a fan of Jameer
.I don't know why Jeremy played Nelson in the FInals, considering he just came back for an injury

The mavs didnt have Chandler back then


I pick Magic in 6

[Venti Quattro]

The mavs didnt have Chandler back then

2011 Mavs.

[lefty]

2011 Mavs.
Aw shit :lmao

Dizzy :(

Then Magic in 7

[Venti Quattro]

My pick: Dallas in 5. With or without home court adv.

[JoeTait75]

People really underrate Dallas's supporting cast, imho.

[DPG21920]

Just mav fans to prop up Dirk.

[stretch]

People really underrate Dallas's supporting cast, imho.

sadly so. it wasnt an extremely talented cast, but it was a very well balanced crew, and they gave him the help in areas where the team needed it most. gotta give Donnie credit, he put together a very balaned team, despite not being your "typical" championship team of 2 superstars and a group of role players that don't completely blow ass.


:cry :cry :cry

[DeadlyDynasty]

sadly so. it wasnt an extremely talented cast, but it was a very well balanced crew, and they gave him the help in areas where the team needed it most. gotta give Donnie credit, he put together a very balaned team, despite not being your "typical" championship team of 2 superstars and a group of role players that don't completely blow ass.

This x100. The 2011 Mavs roster fit perfectly--all the pieces they had played clearly defined roles. Furthermore--they were all needed, and you'd be hard-pressed to substitute any one of them for somebody else and get the same chemistry and camaraderie. The Spurs championship teams could've switched out anybody at Center (as well as a good portion of their bench). Dallas' pieces fit perfectly like a puzzle. The only team in recent memory that comes close to having that kind of roster is the 2003-2005 Detroit Pistons (but even their bench was not as valuable as Dallas').

I'm not saying Dallas is the best team ever by any stretch, but all their pieces fit just about as good as any I've ever seen.

[Fpoonsie]

*fap-fap-fap* NRK fo' LYFE *fap-fap*

[Lincoln]

Every person that played for Dallas in the post season also brought something to the table. Gone were the days of scrubs like dick breath and croshere not doing shit in the playoffs.

Even Haywood, who sucked ass all season, turned it up and was very valuable. Mahinmi and fucking cardinal as well.

[DPG21920]

:lol Stretch is ragin'!

[stretch]

its really hard to find one specific player on the Mavs that was the second most important behind Dirk. its probably easiest to say Chandler, but when you look at the things other guys did, it makes it less easy to say it was flat out Chandler... Kidd's incredible versatility, clutch-as-fuck shooting, and great crunchtime defense on elite players… Marion snagged soooo many key rebounds, defended elite wings extremely well, and provided high-percentage buckets with his much improved post-up offense… Terry especially in the Finals taking on the challenge of being defended by Lebron and kicking his ass in the process, helping Dirk out when Miami seemed extremely intent on not letting Dirk go off on them… Barea providing a legit penetrator, taking the scoring load while Dirk was out of the game and creating open shots for others… its really hard to say that the team could have been able to win without all those guys on the team… then again, when Haywood went down in the Miami series, the Mavs chances seemed like they might have been completely fucked, but they still were able to get by with Cardinal and Mahinmi…. Hard to say.

[DeadlyDynasty]

Chandler was the biggest difference on the Mavs, no doubt imo. He completely changed the culture of that team from soft playoff chokers to rugged gamers. Kidd, Lincoln, and others weren't soft--but the team still was until Chandler got there.

[lefty]

chandler was the biggest difference on the mavs, no doubt imo. He completely changed the culture of that team from soft playoff chokers to rugged gamers. Kidd, lincoln, and others weren't soft--but the team still was until chandler got there.

+1

[z0sa]

Yeah, it's pretty crazy hwo big of an effect even a player like Chandler can have just because he's a 7 footer, can play solid defense, and can catch and finish around the hoop.

Just goes to show how much impact a big guy in the paint has opposed to perimeter players. Controlling the paint will always be the key to winning a title, and those strong in the paint will always be a more valuable commodity than those strong on the perimeter.

[stretch]

Yeah, it's pretty crazy hwo big of an effect even a player like Chandler can have just because he's a 7 footer, can play solid defense, and can catch and finish around the hoop.

Just goes to show how much impact a big guy in the paint has opposed to perimeter players. Controlling the paint will always be the key to winning a title, and those strong in the paint will always be a more valuable commodity than those strong on the perimeter.

true to an extent, false to an extent

although we all know that your purpose in this post was not to actually talk basketball, but to subtly take a jab at dirk, while sucking off Timmy D.

the key to winning a championship is not controlling the paint, because if you have no perimeter play, then it means nothing, and vice versa.

they key to winning a championship is not having a great defense, because if you cant score points, then it means nothing, and vice versa.

the key to winning a championship is not having 2 dominant superstars, because if you don't have good role players, then it means nothing, and vice versa.




the true key to winning a championship is having balance, and an ability to succeed offensively and defensively under pressure. there are a number of ways to be able to do those things. some teams like dominant perimeter scorers and defenders (MJ and Pippen). some teams like dominant interior scorers and defenders (Duncan and Robinson). but the key in the end is having some sort of balance (MJ/Pippen had great team defense on the interior and a monster rebounder in guys like Grant, Cartwright and Rodman; Duncan/Robinson had great team defense on the perimeter and key perimeter contributors in guys like Elliott, Parker and Ginobili).

[Monostradamus]

Chandler was the biggest difference on the Mavs, no doubt imo. He completely changed the culture of that team from soft playoff chokers to rugged gamers. Kidd, Lincoln, and others weren't soft--but the team still was until Chandler got there.


Nice backpedaling...":cry:cry:cryI was just trolling/kidding this entire time:cry:cry:cry." Right, just like when you gave up on dem Mavs and bashed Dirk endlessly after Game 4 against Portland--"I was just reverse-jinxing them, how do you not see the genius in that?:madrun:madrun:madrun"

You've crusaded for new rules and player safety ever since Week 5 last year, when there was a statistical anomaly of malicious hits--since then you've done nothing but bring emotion to this argument (like only a bitch would do).

Truth be told, your post-Mavs title retardation is still going strong and affecting your posting in all forums now. DPG bent you over in the NBA Forum (DPCLD :lmao:lmao:lmao), Rogue bent you over in the Club, and now you're looking to the NFL Forum for some lovin':rollin

Who wants this thread to die now? Fuck, keep it going strong so I can give you weekly updates on concussions.

Now go home and get your fuckin' shinebox

[DeadlyDynasty]

We keep hearing how Dirk still has a few years of his prime left. I'm here to tell you all that his prime blew by us, and we're witnessing the decline right now.

His scoring is up - great. His scoring is up only because he's taking more shots. His jumper used to be consistently great and automatic. A 4 for 18 night was a blue moon shock. Nowadays, he's just another streaky shooter who from time to time can get dialed in and never miss. Nowadays, a 4 for 18 shooting night is "Dirk's stinker of the week".

He never drives anymore, and when he does, he's almost guaranteed to miss the layup. He never had much of a post game, but at least before he could get a low post hook shot or two in every game.

His rebounding is way down, and his defense is far worse. There was a point a couple year's ago when Dirk's defense was actually pretty decent, and anybody who actually watched him on D regularly would know this. But he's right back to being the piss-poor defender he used to be, only now it's not because he's not focused, it's because physically he can't do it anymore.

This isn't meant to shit on Dirk because he can't help that his body is deteriorating. I'm sure he's working just as hard, if not harder, on his game.

This is just a wakeup call to all Mavs fans that Dirk simply isn't the superhero he used to be, that he is past his prime, and that at this point he is best served being a secondary option. And that things are only going to get worse from here for Dirk. Hopefully Mark & Donnie pull their head out of their ass and see the same thing, and do something about it (yeah, right).

[mavs>spurs]

Funny how Howard's lack of a polished offensive game is at the center of their argument while Dirk's defense gets swept under the rug. :lol

Only a complete idiot/dirk fanboy chink would take Dirk over Dwight. A championship doesnt change that. Dirk's great offensive game doesnt change that. You dont take a great offensive player over a player putting up 23 ppg while simultaneously being the biggest defensive force in the league. Its much easier to build around Dwight then it was around Dirk, Otis Smith just happens to be an idiot.
there ain't that many chinks on their fanbase imho, most of them are picklebreaths who are similar to chinks but not actually are. its hard to say who's the better player between dirk and DH tbh, as they are of different positions & styles. if i were to build an NBA franchise of my own DH would be my #1 choice b/c hes relatively young and hence has a lot of potential to develop. whereas if i need to win something right now i'd definitely pick dirk over DH, and sign a defensive big like TC who plays D just as fine as DH does

[mavs>spurs]

the true key to winning a championship is having balance, and an ability to succeed offensively and defensively under pressure. there are a number of ways to be able to do those things. some teams like dominant perimeter scorers and defenders (MJ and Pippen). some teams like dominant interior scorers and defenders (Duncan and Robinson). but the key in the end is having some sort of balance (MJ/Pippen had great team defense on the interior and a monster rebounder in guys like Grant, Cartwright and Rodman; Duncan/Robinson had great team defense on the perimeter and key perimeter contributors in guys like Elliott, Parker and Ginobili).
golden point. the past years the mavs had no legit big, so even though they had some badass shooters outside they still struggled to make a serious run in the post season. damp was a fine player but he was way off the championship standard. C used to be mavs' shortest stave which had been holding'em back for years, but the arrival of TC has proven to be a tremendous change. in some video games like 2k11 such a signing doesn't make much change to the overall rating of this team imho, from 88 to 89 maybe, but the game itself is quite a different thing i think

[badfish22]

Just mav fans to prop up Dirk.

And yourself all season until they won the :lobt:

[DPG21920]

That doesn't make any sense.

[stretch]

That doesn't make any sense.

hes talking about you sucking dirk off all season and dismissing the rest of the team, and now that they won it all, you have pretty much done the opposite

[DPG21920]

Except I didn't do that. I clearly said I thought they had enough to win until Caron went down. At that point, I didn't think they had enough talent. I never just bagged on them though.

Why u mad and making up lies sons :lol?

[z0sa]

although we all know that your purpose in this post was not to actually talk basketball, but to subtly take a jab at dirk, while sucking off Timmy D.

The jab was at Kobe, Dirk is a big man who has a strong paint presence (rebounding and finishing around the hoop). auto-butthurt response is automatic.

[picc84]

If i'm Riles and Otis calls me with that offer I have Lebron on next redeye to Orlando.

Wade has proven he can be the primary/sole ballhandler and scorer on a championship team, and that frontcourt would be legendary and mesh perfectly. Dwight gives you 20+ points and handles the defense and rebounding, and Bosh spaces the floor for him and still gives you 18 with decent rebounding and help D.

Something else Miami could do is trade Lebron for Dwight, then trade Bosh for Iguodala. With Haslem they'd still have a decent floor-spacing 4 and Iggy would do all the Pippen things Lebron did without the pressure to score.

Chalmers
Wade
Iggy
Haslem
Dwight

Or

Chalmers
Wade
Miller
Bosh
Dwight

Only problem with 2nd lineup is lack of a perimeter stopper to save Wade's legs. James Jones I guess?

Slightly off-topic, would any frontcourt be more scary than Dwight and Dirk? They'd complement each others games better than maybe any other frontcourt ever.

On topic, Dwight is still a better player than Dirk. Dirk was a masterful offensive player in the playoffs but you still need guys to cover his weaknesses in every other aspect of the game. Dwight gives you everything at a high level.

You have to give it to Dirk though. For a player who's almost useless when he doesn't have the ball, on offense and defense both, you have to be UNBELIEVABLE with the ball to make up the difference so much you're still regarded as a legend. And he is.

[FkLA]

On topic, Dwight is still a better player than Dirk. Dirk was a masterful offensive player in the playoffs but you still need guys to cover his weaknesses in every other aspect of the game. Dwight gives you everything at a high level.

You have to give it to Dirk though. For a player who's almost useless when he doesn't have the ball, on offense and defense both, you have to be UNBELIEVABLE with the ball to make up the difference so much you're still regarded as a legend. And he is.

picc84 with disregard for chink safety, simply telling it like it is :tu

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Tbh gook is the proper term for Asian Mavfans on this site. Calling a Korean a chink would be like calling me a raghead.

[Lincoln]

Dok am I a gook?

[ElNono]

Can we go back to krew fapping now?

[ElNono]

Also, what's worse? chink/gook or wigger?

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Dok am I a gook?
Aren't you Korean tbh

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

chink/gook or wigger?
beaner

[Seventyniner]

I would bet a trillion dollars.

Who are you, Barack Obama?

[DMC]

Dok am I a gook?
You have any pics of yourself or your elders in the kim chi squat position, playing mahjong over a piss puddle near a rice paddy with naked kids chasing chickens around the place and toothless women carrying baskets?

If so, post please.

[DMC]

Who are you, Barack Obama?
I could do that as easy as "Mita Jones... Indy... Mita Jones!" could get a million.

[Fabbs]

bump

[Brazil]

bump

why?

[stretch]

http://bundy.bear.tripod.com/pics/coolralph.gif

i think i know shit about basketball

[Fabbs]

I'm a krew fapper.
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRIw3fj0-1WXiJxHvHQT_IuBkzqR3oMqZc_wjwmWI7DdFtnD7TiZfck7x-enw
I'll get to work on writing a song that captures you "fappas". :toast

[Monostradamus]

I'll get to work on writing a song that captures you "fappas". :toast

Get em, Fabbs! :tu reppin that TLC as always!