Kobe Bryant will go down in history as just a healthy Tracy McGrady

[Bruce Wayne]

:toast

[DMC]

A healthy McGrady would have been a nightmare.

[Killakobe81]

A healthy McGrady would have been a nightmare.

A healthy McGrady is an urban legend ....

And the OP's argument is moronic, that is like saying a healthy Penny Hardaway = Magic Johnson

[Deuce Bigalow]

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/4213/cricketstare.gif

[pass1st]

If he keeps getting worse on defense, he will for sure.

[namlook]

Fail. McGrady never won when he was healthy.

[ElNono]

Healthy Tracy McGrady was more talented, tbh.

Plus he didn't rapePERIOD or snitchPERIOD.

[MR.SILVER&BLack]

as long as jordan is the best SG of all time & the goat this is true. sorry but people dont remember 2nd place and no i dont mean kobes the 2nd greatest player of all time.

[Jacob1983]

TMAC has never won a playoff series. Kobe has 5 rings. Terrible comparison.

[Venti Quattro]

Healthy Tracy McGrady was more talented, tbh.

Plus he didn't rapePERIOD or snitchPERIOD.

And he didn't winPERIOD

[Venti Quattro]

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/4213/cricketstare.gif

Lakaluva and family?

[lefty]

A healthy McGrady is an urban legend ....

And the OP's argument is moronic, that is like saying a healthy Penny Hardaway = Magic Johnson
A healthy Penny >>>> Magic

TBH

[cheguevara]

a healthy Mcgrady would not only have shit on Kobe, he would have given MJ a run for his money.

[Jodelo]

Healthy McGrady would have been much better than Kobe.

[stretch]

said it for years, healthy T-Mac is the most talented, gifted player the NBA has ever seen. if he had the work ethic of a guy like MJ or Kobe, there isn't a doubt in my mind he finishes his career being looked at as the best basketball player anyone has ever seen. its crazy to think that he could be so half-assed in all that he did, and still average 32 ppg with ease.

[stretch]

Healthy McGrady would have been much better than Kobe.

to be fair, it went beyond his health. I think his desire and work ethic both is what held him back the most, as opposed to his health. if he took better care of his body, he probably wouldnt have had all the health problems.

im not one of the people that thinks he didnt care about winning or losing, because he obviously did, but he didnt have that hatred of losing, the way guys like Kobe or MJ has. if he had that type of outlook on losing, he would have been much better.

[cantthinkofanything]

said it for years, healthy T-Mac is the most talented, gifted player the NBA has ever seen. if he had the work ethic of a guy like MJ or Kobe, there isn't a doubt in my mind he finishes his career being looked at as the best basketball player anyone has ever seen. its crazy to think that he could be so half-assed in all that he did, and still average 32 ppg with ease.

No doubt he could have achieved much more but there was probably someone out there who could have been even better than T-Mac but worked even less hard. Probably even some kid in college who could have been the best ever but pissed it away with a bad work ethic. I can think of several NBA players that had more potential than T-Mac. Starting with Todd Day.

[Bruce Wayne]

TMAC has never won a playoff series. Kobe has 5 rings. Terrible comparison.

Kobe never won a playoff series without Shaq or Gasol.

[cheguevara]

Grady didn't even have an Odom caliber player.

[ElNono]

And he didn't winPERIOD

he wasn't healthy :cry :cry :cry

[stretch]

No doubt he could have achieved much more but there was probably someone out there who could have been even better than T-Mac but worked even less hard. Probably even some kid in college who could have been the best ever but pissed it away with a bad work ethic. I can think of several NBA players that had more potential than T-Mac. Starting with Todd Day.

i certainly dont disagree either

im sure there have been a number of players more naturally gifted and talented than any player we have seen that just didnt put forth the neccesary effort, or didn't really care enough to do so.

[baseline bum]

I think McGrady reached his ceiling offensively; he couldn't get to the rim the way Jordan did pre first retirement, which is about what it would take to improve on his already spectacular offensive game. He should have been a way better defensive player though. TMac has a great wingspan for a 2/3, and had he not gone to Orlando where Doc Rivers was scared of burning him out, I think he could have become one the game's all-time elite defenders. He was fast, agile, had great height and wingspan, an elite vertical, and could get up off his feet quickly... on paper he had all the tools to become the kind of lock-down attack dog Scottie Pippen was on the defensive end all those years. At times it looked like he was becoming that player in Toronto.

[pass1st]

T-Mac didn't have great work ethic, but Kobe has excellent work ethic. It's an x-factor that separates Kobe from players like AI or T-Mac and always makes or breaks a player when their final prime years come up.

[JayTheClown]

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/4213/cricketstare.gif

:toast

[lefty]

T-Mac didn't have great work ethic, but Kobe has excellent work ethic. It's an x-factor that separates Kobe from players like AI or T-Mac and always makes or breaks a player when their final prime years come up.
I agree

[namlook]

TMAC has never won a playoff series.

:lol @ the OP.

[Jose Canseco]

A healthy T-Mac with Kobe's work ethic and obsession to be great would have been the scariest player of the post Jordan era.

Methinks this thread hath backfired on the OP.

[Hooks]

? McGrady never had a HOF center right next to him...

Shaq was getting doubled/tripled which allowed Kobe to shoot whatever he wanted and he still couldn't win a finals MVP lmao. The one time Kobe tried to be MVP he refused to pass to Shaq and literally shot his team out of the 2004 NBA Finals after being shut down by Prince, meanwhile a year later a prime Manu tore that same defense and defender a new asshole.

Kobe then failed to make the playoffs, failed to beat an Amare-less suns team, and then lost once again in the 1st round. It was only until Bynum/Gasol became two of the best big men in the League that Kobe finally started winning again, as well as getting the best 6th man and one of the best defenders in the NBA. And despite Kobe having one of his best playoff performances of all time they failed to get out of the first round because of Gasol's poor play.

[ElNono]

Yao won't make the HOF?

Uh oh, just opened another can of worms...

[djohn2oo8]

Yao won't make the HOF?

Uh oh, just opened another can of worms...

Shaq will make it for what he did on the court. IF Yao makes it, it will be because of China. Like always, Yao got voted in to all star games without playing full seasons :lmao

[ElNono]

tbh, much like T-Mac, Yao got jobbed by his injuries.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe never won a playoff series without Shaq or Gasol.

neither has Jordan without Pippen, infact, Jordan never even had a winning season without Pippen

[BoricuaCJA]

neither has Jordan without Pippen, infact, Jordan never even had a winning season without Pippen
But Jordan never had a dominate big man like Kobe has. Kobe is a really good player(at least top 15 for sure all time) but had the benefit at having some of the best big man the years he done good in the league.

[Deuce Bigalow]

But Jordan never had a dominate big man like Kobe has. Kobe is a really good player(at least top 15 for sure all time) but had the benefit at having some of the best big man the years he done good in the league.

Kobe is top 10 alltime, and better than Duncan

and dominate big man, lol, as good as gasol is, he is not a top 50 alltime player

Kobe was voted best player of decade by TNT and Sporting News

[djohn2oo8]

Kobe is top 10 alltime, and better than Duncan

and dominate big man, lol, as good as gasol is, he is not a top 50 alltime player

Kobe was voted best player of decade by TNT and Sporting News

Does your butthurt?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Does your butthurt?

:lol
no, does yours?

[ElNono]

Kobe is top 10 alltime

:lmao :lmao :lmao

He's not even the best at his position, tbh...

[Jose Canseco]

:lmao :lmao :lmao

He's not even the best at his position, tbh...

You do know that since there are only 5 positions in basketball, you wouldn't have to be the best at your position to still be considered a top 10 player, right? That's pretty basic mathematics.

Whether Kobe is top 10 or not is debatable. Using the argument that he's not the best at his position doesn't matter.

[ElNono]

You do know that since there are only 5 positions in basketball.... :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry

Yeah, I know. He's not top 10, not even the best at his position. Don't think I said anything wrong before you started crying.

[Deuce Bigalow]

:lmao :lmao :lmao

He's not even the best at his position, tbh...

what does that have to do with anything :lol

and there isn't 10 players who had a better career than kobe

[ElNono]

what does that have to do with anything

What does Jordan has to do with a T-Mac vs Kobe comparison? :lol

[MR.SILVER&BLack]

What does Jordan has to do with a T-Mac vs Kobe comparison? :lol
he couldnt find his stats fast enough.

[MR.SILVER&BLack]

Kobe is top 10 alltime, and better than Duncan

and dominate big man, lol, as good as gasol is, he is not a top 50 alltime player

Kobe was voted best player of decade by TNT and Sporting News

:lmaowasnt tnt's player of the decade award by FAN vote. so what TD was named player of the decade by sports illustrated.

[jag]

T-Mac didn't have great work ethic, but Kobe has excellent work ethic. It's an x-factor that separates Kobe from players like AI or T-Mac and always makes or breaks a player when their final prime years come up.

I really don't know about AI's work ethic (other than his 'talkin bout practice' soundbite) but I still think he got about as much out of his ability as he could have. I'd say he more than reached his potential. It makes me think he worked pretty hard behind closed doors.

[djohn2oo8]

Kobe is top 10 alltime, and better than Duncan

and dominate big man, lol, as good as gasol is, he is not a top 50 alltime player

Kobe was voted best player of decade by TNT and Sporting News

Kobe won with a top 10 player of all time in Shaq. Jordan didn't.

[Killakobe81]

The hate is strong in this thread ...

[Killakobe81]

Kobe won with a top 10 player of all time in Shaq. Jordan didn't.

Top 10 of all-time?! LOL Kobe has a better chance at top 10 than Shaq ... what are you 20 years old?

Kobe is at least (well at best, fixed) 2nd best SG shaq is barely a top 5 center Kareem, Russell, Wilt are considered better by most. Some could argue Hakeem and Moses as well ...
if you add duncan who really is a center shaq is maybe 4th/5th ...

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe won with a top 10 player of all time in Shaq. Jordan didn't.

Magic won all 5 titles with a top 10 player
Kareem won 5/6 titles with a top 10 player, and another title with a top 12 player

[BoricuaCJA]

Kobe is top 10 alltime, and better than Duncan

and dominate big man, lol, as good as gasol is, he is not a top 50 alltime player

Kobe was voted best player of decade by TNT and Sporting News
1. I said "At Least" top 15 all time b/c there are still people for some reason who don't believe he is top 10 which I have him in my top 10. I think Duncan is better than Kobe ( I tend to like big men more than guards, its just a matter of preference). I never said Gasol is a top 50 of all time BUT he is one of the best big man in the league while he is playing these past few years on the LA championship teams. Kobe always had the better big man in the league when he ringed, thats what I'm trying to say.

Remember a lot of us say that these past years the big men in the league right now is water downed(Center specifically imo).

I don't care what media has as the best player of the decade. People look too much into stats and highlights not into some the intangibles a player had. Duncan's defensive anchoring/presence and Kobe's killer instinct are things that can't be measured very well. Even though Kobe's game winners % is not that good (around 30%), a lot of us would love to have him to have the ball if we need a 3pter.

[ElNono]

The hate is strong in this thread ...

I know, right?

Why hate on Jordan when talking about Kobe and T-Mac?

:lol

[namlook]

Kobe won with a top 10 player of all time in Shaq.

Winning with another great player doesn't diminish you. Magic is a top 5 player and he never won without Kareem who is a top 5 player.

[ElNono]

LOL Kobe has a better chance at top 10 than Shaq

Debatable, IMO. Shaq certainly did a disservice to himself half-assing it after leaving the Lakeshow. I think winning with the Heat really made him think he didn't have to try hard, and it backfired on him.

[djohn2oo8]

Top 10 of all-time?! LOL Kobe has a better chance at top 10 than Shaq ... what are you 20 years old?


:lmao Don't be such a Kobe nuthugger Killa. Shaq was still much better and more dominant than anyone MJ had.


Magic won all 5 titles with a top 10 player
Kareem won 5/6 titles with a top 10 player, and another title with a top 12 player

Ok, you still didn't recognize Jordan won all 6 rings without a top 10 player.


Winning with another great player doesn't diminish you. Magic is a top 5 player and he never won without Kareem who is a top 5 player.

Winning without a top 10, 20 player one enhances your legacy

[Killakobe81]

Debatable, IMO. Shaq certainly did a disservice to himself half-assing it after leaving the Lakeshow. I think winning with the Heat really made him think he didn't have to try hard, and it backfired on him.

Let's be real the only thing shaq has on Kobe is he was the more consistently dominant finals performer, but even that has some holes. Not only in 2006 but even in 2004 (where Kobe struggled with his shooting)

Tex Winter (excerpt by Lazenby's "showtime") "Shaq defeated himself against Detroit. He played way too pasively. He had one big game. Outside of that he didnt do much. His boxing out and rebounding in that series was awful. he had only 1 assist in one of the games. He has always been in being a scorer, but he hasnt had nearly enough concentration on defense and rebounding" - Tex Winter ...

From the SA series same year,same book: "Defense in pro ball, is predicated on the support around the basket from your big man. Even though shaq was a big presence he was not a great shot-blocker and he didnt like to play the pick n roll so he put his teammates in jeopardy on the perimeter ... Payton was open to unfair criticism and fumed as he took the heat for Shaq's defense.

Lest we forget that Shaq was outplayed (sorta) in the first 2 games of the 2006 NBA finals by a man he dubbed "Erica" and by Mourning in the clincher.

BTW, In game 2, down 1-0 Shaq goes 1 for 7 from the field with 5pts, 6rebs, 2 TO's 0 blocks and 2 assists with only 1 foul ...Damp gets 6 pts. 13 rebs, 1, steal and 1 block but negates the MVP runner-up for that year.

In the clinching game Shaq redeems himself with: 9pts, 12rebs and 1 block in 30 mins. BUT Zo steps out with 8pts, 6 rebs and 5 blocks in only 14 mins.

In half the games of his win without Kobe, he was not the 1st (Wade) or even 2nd best player (dirk) in all 6 games and was not even the best big in 3 of them ...

Shaq is a great dominant big, and because of the rings i give him a slight edge on HAkeem as a great big man and just a smidge behind duncan. But when all the numbers are added up maybe he can pass Duncan but no way he passes Kobe.

[Killakobe81]

:lmao Don't be such a Kobe nuthugger Killa. Shaq was still much better and more dominant than anyone MJ had.



Ok, you still didn't recognize Jordan won all 6 rings without a top 10 player.



Winning without a top 10, 20 player one enhances your legacy

Not huggin anyone, those are the facts. And besides who is bringing up MJ?

MJ>Kobe so why even bring up MJ here? the thread was debating the merits of Shaq/Kobe and someone brought up duncan. None of the 3 are in MJ's class ESPECIALLY shaq, unless you only care about dominant scoring. Which Shaq has on Timmy by a lot and even Kobe by a notch ...

[mavs>spurs]

to be fair, it went beyond his health. I think his desire and work ethic both is what held him back the most, as opposed to his health. if he took better care of his body, he probably wouldnt have had all the health problems.

im not one of the people that thinks he didnt care about winning or losing, because he obviously did, but he didnt have that hatred of losing, the way guys like Kobe or MJ has. if he had that type of outlook on losing, he would have been much better.

he got no legit support at Magic but still managed 30+ pt/g, two times league's scoring leader remember? he carried his poorass team to the playoffs almost single-handedly and lost to da pistons who were da baddest ass in the east at that time

he then departed orlando to join da rockets playing w/ that 7'6 jinx, and thats when his game started to decline quite fast. had t-mac been drafted by spurs or lakers he would have won more rings then kobe or duncan did tbh

[Killakobe81]

he got no legit support at Magic but still managed 30+ pt/g, two times league's scoring leader remember? he carried his poorass team to the playoffs almost single-handedly and lost to da pistons who were da baddest ass in the east at that time

he then departed orlando to join da rockets playing w/ that 7'6 jinx, and thats when his game started to decline quite fast. had t-mac been drafted by spurs or lakers he would have won more rings then kobe or duncan did tbh

You my friend just made one of the dumbest posts I have ever seen on here, and that is saying A LOT. Are you a TMAC relative? Vince, is that you?

[ElNono]

Let's be real the only thing shaq has on Kobe is he was the more consistently dominant finals performer, but even that has some holes. Not only in 2006 but even in 2004 (where Kobe struggled with his shooting)

When you win the Finals nobody gives a shit. That's why arguing about Kobe's atrocious shooting the last time he was there is a waste of time. He won, end of story. Now, when you lose...


Tex Winter (excerpt by Lazenby's "showtime") "Shaq defeated himself against Detroit. He played way too pasively. He had one big game. Outside of that he didnt do much. His boxing out and rebounding in that series was awful. he had only 1 assist in one of the games. He has always been in being a scorer, but he hasnt had nearly enough concentration on defense and rebounding" - Tex Winter ...

You gotta tell Tex that Shaq shot 63%(!) for that series. While Kobe was chucking at 38% and 17% from downtown, and basically throwing that series away. The Number 1 option on that team was doing his job. It was Robin misfiring on all cylinders.

[ElNono]

And besides who is bringing up MJ?
MJ>Kobe so why even bring up MJ here?

Not sure why butturt lakerfan (not you) would bring up the GOAT here, since he makes Kobe looks like T-Mac, tbh.

[ElNono]

lol sons, lakerfan out in full force to defend the rapist. no surprises there.

[Killakobe81]

When you win the Finals nobody gives a shit. That's why arguing about Kobe's atrocious shooting the last time he was there is a waste of time. He won, end of story. Now, when you lose...



You gotta tell Tex that Shaq shot 63%(!) for that series. While Kobe was chucking at 38% and 17% from downtown, and basically throwing that series away. The Number 1 option on that team was doing his job. It was Robin misfiring on all cylinders.

No doubt Kobe played like crap, but bball is a two-way sport. Shaq was guarded by 2 power forwards that series two very good defensive ones, but two PF's none the less. In fact Brown unlike Scott, Larry Brown and Bird focused Prince and his help on Kobe instead of double teaming shaq and it neutralized the Laker offense. Don't get me wrong Kobe was a dumbass for forcing shots ....but shaq did NOT do his job ...he did not dominate the series ...and if he can't do that he is a role player like he was in the 2006 Finals ...

[ElNono]

No doubt Kobe played like crap, but bball is a two-way sport. Shaq was guarded by 2 power forwards that series two very good defensive ones, but two PF's none the less. In fact Brown unlike Scott, Larry Brown and Bird focused Prince and his help on Kobe instead of double teaming shaq and it neutralized the Laker offense. Don't get me wrong Kobe was a dumbass for forcing shots ....but shaq did NOT do his job ...he did not dominate the series ...and if he can't do that he is a role player like he was in the 2006 Finals ...

When you have a dominant guy inside scoring at a 63% clip, you give the ball to him and move the fuck away... unless you have Kobe's ego.

[Killakobe81]

Not sure why butturt lakerfan (not you) would bring up the GOAT here, since he makes Kobe looks like T-Mac, tbh.

MJ is better but Kobe is closer to MJ than TMAc is to Kobe. Not that Kobe is close but the OP's premise is silly. TMAC needs to be compared to: pre-injury Benard King and Grant hill or a no coke David Thompson or Prime Iceman ...Kobe? GTFO.

[ElNono]

MJ is better but Kobe is closer to MJ than TMAc is to Kobe. Not that Kobe is close but the OP's premise is silly. TMAC needs to be compared to: pre-injury Benard King and Grant hill or a no coke David Thompson or Prime Iceman ...Kobe? GTFO.

Sorry, should've said "healthy T-Mac". Although "healthy T-Mac" probably >>> Kobe, tbh

[Killakobe81]

When you have a dominant guy inside scoring at a 63% clip, you give the ball to him and move the fuck away... unless you have Kobe's ego.

Now we agree on something. But this was a God forsaken team that did not deserve to win shit.

Payton and fish were at odds
GP vs. PJ
Shaq vs. Kobe
Malone vs. Kobe's wife ...
Colorado

We did not deserve to win
(BTW I only regret losing the 3peat in '89 and the title in 1984 because I know the Lakers were better and did not win) That Laker team was not a cohesive unit and was poorly coached. Shaq recruited those guys and PJ wanted his guys to play (horry and Fisher).

Detroit gave us a clinic ...in team ball and Brown outcoached PJ ...

[Killakobe81]

Sorry, should've said "healthy T-Mac". Although "healthy T-Mac" probably >>> Kobe, tbh

LOL should of stopped while you were ahead I guess he was better than duncan too?

[ElNono]

LOL should of stopped while you were ahead I guess he was better than duncan too?

A healthy T-Mac? Probably in the conversation *IF* his defense would've been elite as baseline bum (? I think it was him) mentioned earlier in the thread. T-Mac certainly had the tools, but he wasted them.

Truth is Duncan in his prime was dominant on both sides of the floor (another trait Shaq had in his prime). Kobe has always been very inconsistent on defense and historically severely overrated on that side of the floor.

[ElNono]

Now we agree on something. But this was a God forsaken team that did not deserve to win shit.

Payton and fish were at odds
GP vs. PJ
Shaq vs. Kobe
Malone vs. Kobe's wife ...
Colorado

We did not deserve to win
(BTW I only regret losing the 3peat in '89 and the title in 1984 because I know the Lakers were better and did not win) That Laker team was not a cohesive unit and was poorly coached. Shaq recruited those guys and PJ wanted his guys to play (horry and Fisher).

Detroit gave us a clinic ...in team ball and Brown outcoached PJ ...

That Detroit team was a bitch. A defensive juggernaut.

[Killakobe81]

A healthy T-Mac? Probably in the conversation *IF* his defense would've been elite as baseline bum (? I think it was him) mentioned earlier in the thread. T-Mac certainly had the tools, but he wasted them.

Truth is Duncan in his prime was dominant on both sides of the floor (another trait Shaq had in his prime). Kobe has always been very inconsistent on defense and historically severely overrated on that side of the floor.

LOL Shaq was sooo dominant on defense? When was SHaq the leader of a top rated defense?

[Koolaid_Man]

When you have a dominant guy inside scoring at a 63% clip, you give the ball to him and move the fuck away... unless you have Kobe's ego.


:lol overrated stat since the dunk is naturally a high % shot...come again :lol

[ElNono]

:lol overrated stat since the dunk is naturally a high % shot...come again :lol

When we start talking about cock we'll call you back :lol

[ElNono]

LOL Shaq was sooo dominant on defense? When was SHaq the leader of a top rated defense?

What help did he have inside during 2000-2003? Horry?
He was your entire inside defense around that time. Guarding guys like Malone, DRob, etc wasn't a picnic.

[Killakobe81]

A healthy T-Mac? Probably in the conversation *IF* his defense would've been elite as baseline bum (? I think it was him) mentioned earlier in the thread. T-Mac certainly had the tools, but he wasted them.

Truth is Duncan in his prime was dominant on both sides of the floor (another trait Shaq had in his prime). Kobe has always been very inconsistent on defense and historically severely overrated on that side of the floor.

And that is why I give Duncan a slight edge on Shaq and one on Kobe too before the past 3 seasons ....

But Kobe was once a great defender, much like duncan but neither are that good anymore.

[ElNono]

And that is why I give Duncan a slight edge on Shaq and one on Kobe too before the past 3 seasons ....

But Kobe was once a great defender, much like duncan but neither are that good anymore.

Kobe was once a great defender when he gave a shit. It's like he needed to get called out, then he'll give 100% there.

Guys like Duncan had help (hello Bowen), but they really anchored inside night in and night out. That aspect of his decline has been the most painful as a Spurs fan.

[Killakobe81]

What help did he have inside during 2000-2003? Horry?
He was your entire inside defense around that time. Guarding guys like Malone, DRob, etc wasn't a picnic.

Duncan Did it in 2005 ... with Horry and Oberto ...

Olajawon did it with Thorpe and the same Horry you just slighted ....

He had Horace Grant in Orlando ...

Dont mean to make it a bash session I respect Shaq, just like you should Kobe. But because Shaq is funny and not a ass like Kobe, appears to me yall seem to give him a pass on his faults because he dunked on both your HOF big men at once and can crack jokes. I saw Kareem in 1980-1982, Olajawon's double clutch, and Moses fo fo fo Shaq had only his MVP season where he truly put up a season like Duncan in 2003 and 2005 or the seasons I just mentioned. Sure he scored more but in 2000 I thought shaq wa son his way to possible GOAT status ...shame he got fat and lazy.

[djohn2oo8]

Duncan Did it in 2005 ... with Horry and Oberto ...

Olajawon did it with Thorpe and the same Horry you just slighted ....

He had Horace Grant in Orlando ...

Dont mean to make it a bash session I respect Shaq, just like you should Kobe. But because Shaq is funny and not a ass like Kobe, appears to me yall seem to give him a pass on his faults because he dunked on both your HOF big men at once and can crack jokes. I saw Kareem in 1980-1982, Olajawon's double clutch, and Moses fo fo fo Shaq had only his MVP season where he truly put up a season like Duncan in 2003 and 2005 or the seasons I just mentioned. Sure he scored more but in 2000 I thought shaq wa son his way to possible GOAT status ...shame he got fat and lazy.

Hakeem had a prime Horry though

[Koolaid_Man]

And that is why I give Duncan a slight edge on Shaq and one on Kobe too before the past 3 seasons ....

But Kobe was once a great defender, much like duncan but neither are that good anymore.


fail....Duncan could never play 1:1 defense like this...he was a slow big man parked in the paint that got most of his blocks off of help defense. He was too slow to stay in front of his man unless his man was Shaq...and Duncan didn't have to defend the top talent night in and night out that the 2 gaurd position demands...Kobe had to carry the load on offense and defense while Duncan only had to score while Bowen did the defensive work on the tough assignments...sorry but dem the facts...and here it is again:

QBu28UwDzps

[ElNono]

Duncan Did it in 2005 ... with Horry and Oberto ...

Olajawon did it with Thorpe and the same Horry you just slighted ....

He had Horace Grant in Orlando ...

Dont mean to make it a bash session I respect Shaq, just like you should Kobe. But because Shaq is funny and not a ass like Kobe, appears to me yall seem to give him a pass on his faults because he dunked on both your HOF big men at once and can crack jokes. I saw Kareem in 1980-1982, Olajawon's double clutch, and Moses fo fo fo Shaq had only his MVP season where he truly put up a season like Duncan in 2003 and 2005 or the seasons I just mentioned. Sure he scored more but in 2000 I thought shaq wa son his way to possible GOAT status ...shame he got fat and lazy.

I respect Kobe's talent. I also think Shaq has been an ass too behind that circus show he used to like to put. And there's no doubt the way he ended his career was a disservice to himself.

Plus I was in full troll mode with that other Lakerfan when you stepped in with your serious analysis. Sometimes we're just having fun, tbh. :lol

[Killakobe81]

Hakeem had a prime Horry though

Rookie or near Rookie Horry yes, prime I would not say that. no way it can be argued he was in his "prime" at that time except maybe as an athlete ...but not as aplayer not even close, fail.

[ElNono]

fail....Duncan didn't have to defend the top talent night in and night out that the 2 gaurd position demands...

What top talent Kobe had to defend at the 2? Rip Hamilton? Is that why he shot 38% and 17% from the floor? :lmao

[Koolaid_Man]

What top talent Kobe had to defend at the 2? Rip Hamilton? Is that why he shot 38% and 17% from the floor? :lmao


Throughout his career Kobe defended either the 1 or 2 and sometimes the 3...


here you go...Duncan had it easy compared to this...now you post Duncan's relative competition...:lol


Offensive side: Reggie Miller, Allen Iverson, Grant Hill, T-MAC, Vince Carter, Michael Redd, Jason Kidd, Dwayne Wade, Carmelo Anthony, Lebron James, Kevin Durant, Paul Pierece, Ray Allen, Derick Rose, Steve Nash, Russell Westbrook, Rondo, Monta Ellis, Mike Bibby, Joe Johnson, Mike Finley, CP3, Baron Davis, etc etc

Defensive side: Ron Artest, Bruce Bowen, Arron Afflalo, Thebo Shefalosa, Dahntay Jones, James Posey, Tayshaun Prince, Doug Christie, Rueben Patterson, Matt Barnes, Tony Allen, Shane Battier, Raja Bell, Stephen Jackson, Eric Snow, Andre Igoudala, Nicolas Batum

[Killakobe81]

I respect Kobe's talent. I also think Shaq has been an ass too behind that circus show he used to like to put. And there's no doubt the way he ended his career was a disservice to himself.

Plus I was in full troll mode with that other Lakerfan when you stepped in with your serious analysis. Sometimes we're just having fun, tbh. :lol

It's all good most of the time I just laugh but since we have no bball talk I decided to just share. I just read the book I referred to, and I thought Tex would only skewer Kobe for that Pistons series, but tex is a hard but fair man, and from what I understand even critiqued MJ for breaking the triangle.

I dont mind if anyone chews out Kobe's shot selection, infidelity etc. But Call out shaq, TMAc even Mj for theirs as well ...:lol

[HarlemHeat37]

Kobe is unquestionably a top 10 player of all-time IMO, but Gasol in his prime is inarguably a top 50 player of all-time..

[Koolaid_Man]

I respect Kobe's talent. I also think Shaq has been an ass too behind that circus show he used to like to put. And there's no doubt the way he ended his career was a disservice to himself.

Plus I was in full troll mode with that other Lakerfan when you stepped in with your serious analysis. Sometimes we're just having fun, tbh. :lol


triple fail...you respect bcuz you have no choice...now crawl muthafucker crawl...

[Koolaid_Man]

Kobe blocks Duncan 3 times in one game...talk about controlling the paint...

mrfElBT_BOY

[Killakobe81]

I also don't get the TMAc fascination.
Man KI remember seeing like 2 of the 4 straight 40-50 point games Benard threw up before his knee blew out. amzing scorer, but I dont go around saying he would of been better than Bird, Lebron , Pippen etc if he had stayed healthy.

TMAc in his prime was an amazing talent very gifted scorer and better play-maker than Kobe. But besides his length, passing and maybe dunking he does not do anything better than Kobe did in his prime.

Great player but overrated, TBH. Not as much as Vince was who i liked a lot at UNC, but stop with the exaggeration. As nice as Biggie was you cant call him the GOAT rapper off of only two (amazing) albulms ...

[Killakobe81]

For the record taking the analogy further:

MJ = Jay-z
Kobe = Andre 3000 (talented but weird knows he should hold the throne, but wants to do it his own way)

TMAC= Biggie .... nah hell no, he dont even get that status maybe more like 50, or heck even Ja Rule hot for a while but fell off before full potential is reached.

[Koolaid_Man]

I also don't get the TMAc fascination.
Man KI remember seeing like 2 of the 4 straight 40-50 point games Benard threw up before his knee blew out. amzing scorer, but I dont go around saying he would of been better than Bird, Lebron , Pippen etc if he had stayed healthy.

TMAc in his prime was an amazing talent very gifted scorer and better play-maker than Kobe. But besides his length, passing and maybe dunking he does not do anything better than Kobe did in his prime.

Great player but overrated, TBH. Not as much as Vince was who i liked a lot at UNC, but stop with the exaggeration. As nice as Biggie was you cant call him the GOAT rapper off of only two (amazing) albulms ...



"We were on the bus and Luther ( Head) yelled out, 'Kobe's got 70-something and there's four minutes left.' I said, 'Luther, stop lying.' I hurried up and got my key and went to my room and called one of my boys to put on the game and Kobe was at the free throw line with 79 points. I said, 'Are you serious?' I don't think I could score that many in a video game. I talked to Mike ( James) after the game. He said they didn't double team him — not one time. You would think after he hit 40, send two or three guys at him. When he hit 50? When he got 70? What are you doing: playing him one-on-one?"

[ElNono]

Throughout his career Kobe defended either the 1 or 2 and sometimes the 3...

:lol Who did he guard in the Pistons series? Rip, Chauncey? Tay? :lmao


here you go...Duncan had it easy compared to this...now you post Duncan's relative competition...:lol

:lol Duncan having it easy... Shaq, Rasheed, KG, Malone... piece of cake.

:lol comparing a complete defensive anchor vs an overrated 2nd fiddle chucker

[ElNono]

Kobe blocks Duncan 3 times in one game...talk about controlling the paint...

mrfElBT_BOY

:lol do you remember how that season ended?

http://www.jimrome.com/cimages/var/ezjimrome/storage/images/repository/photos/tim-duncan-2007-world-champions-with-tony-parker/337992-1-eng-US/Tim-Duncan-2007-World-Champions-with-Tony-Parker_photo_medium.jpg

:lmao

[Koolaid_Man]

I said, 'Luther, stop lying.' I hurried up and got my key and went to my room

[ElNono]

I also don't get the TMAc fascination.
Man KI remember seeing like 2 of the 4 straight 40-50 point games Benard threw up before his knee blew out. amzing scorer, but I dont go around saying he would of been better than Bird, Lebron , Pippen etc if he had stayed healthy.

TMAc in his prime was an amazing talent very gifted scorer and better play-maker than Kobe. But besides his length, passing and maybe dunking he does not do anything better than Kobe did in his prime.

Great player but overrated, TBH. Not as much as Vince was who i liked a lot at UNC, but stop with the exaggeration. As nice as Biggie was you cant call him the GOAT rapper off of only two (amazing) albulms ...

We're talking about a potential "healthy" T-Mac giving a shit. He was as good or better scorer, as gifted athletically, better playmaker, and he had everything to be a force defensively. What a waste.

[Koolaid_Man]

:lol Who did he guard in the Pistons series? Rip, Chauncey? Tay? :lmao



:lol Duncan having it easy... Shaq, Rasheed, KG, Malone... piece of cake.

:lol comparing a complete defensive anchor vs an overrated 2nd fiddle chucker


Malone over the Hill....KG owned Duncan...bitch slapped him and everything...:lol @Rasheed...Shaq laziness and all still has edge....

7pTiEkfQ6pk

[Koolaid_Man]

:lol do you remember how that season ended?



:lmao


was that the sunset season :lol

[ElNono]

Malone over the Hill....KG owned Duncan...bitch slapped him and everything...:lol @Rasheed...Shaq laziness and all still has edge....

lol @ KG owning Duncan, we cleaned the floor with KG's ass every time.

rememba det time when Rasheed sent your team packing in 2004 :lmao

[Koolaid_Man]

lol @ KG owning Duncan, we cleaned the floor with KG's ass every time.

rememba det time when Rasheed sent your team packing in 2004 :lmao




KG with no help...his work was more impressive to me...I'd take him over Duncan in a heartbeat...the fact that KG is still playing at a high level is a testament to his pedigree over Duncan...and let's face it Duncan is like 4 -1 when facing Kobe head to head...well if you throw in the 99 season I think 4-2...so cut KG some slack for the '10 loss to Kobe....:hat

[ElNono]

KG with no help... :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry

:lol KG has to thank Kobe for his only ring. Garnett gets the credit for that severe beatdown in the final game that set a new record for the worst loss in NBA Finals history... Kobe settings new records, tbh :lol

[pass1st]

I really don't know about AI's work ethic (other than his 'talkin bout practice' soundbite) but I still think he got about as much out of his ability as he could have. I'd say he more than reached his potential. It makes me think he worked pretty hard behind closed doors.

It wasn't that AI didn't hit his peak, but it's that he declined faster than he should have. People like to call him a warrior because of his injuries, but in all honestly they mostly happened because he never conditioned himself during the post-season/pre-season as much as somebody with his amount of playing should have. Work ethic doesn't always determine your peak, but it always determines how long a heavy-minute player will last in the league. Also, it makes a player compensate for declining athleticism.

The GOATs live in the gym, the rest retire on the bench.

[joshdaboss]

Tracy McGrady? Vince Carter shits all over Tracy McGrady in terms of talent and potential.

[midnightpulp]

I think McGrady reached his ceiling offensively; he couldn't get to the rim the way Jordan did pre first retirement, which is about what it would take to improve on his already spectacular offensive game. He should have been a way better defensive player though. TMac has a great wingspan for a 2/3, and had he not gone to Orlando where Doc Rivers was scared of burning him out, I think he could have become one the game's all-time elite defenders. He was fast, agile, had great height and wingspan, an elite vertical, and could get up off his feet quickly... on paper he had all the tools to become the kind of lock-down attack dog Scottie Pippen was on the defensive end all those years. At times it looked like he was becoming that player in Toronto.

Yep. When McGrady actually tried on defense during his Toronto days, he was lock down.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

mightnight, when will you be re-joining the RK and helping us with our calculated shit bombs :lol

[midnightpulp]

I also don't get the TMAc fascination.
Man KI remember seeing like 2 of the 4 straight 40-50 point games Benard threw up before his knee blew out. amzing scorer, but I dont go around saying he would of been better than Bird, Lebron , Pippen etc if he had stayed healthy.

TMAc in his prime was an amazing talent very gifted scorer and better play-maker than Kobe. But besides his length, passing and maybe dunking he does not do anything better than Kobe did in his prime.

Great player but overrated, TBH. Not as much as Vince was who i liked a lot at UNC, but stop with the exaggeration. As nice as Biggie was you cant call him the GOAT rapper off of only two (amazing) albulms ...

Yeah, that's why back in early 00s, everyone except dumbass Laker fans considered McGrady the better player.

That said, even if McGrady stayed healthy, I still think Kobe eventually becomes the better player due to his work ethic and his never ending drive to improve his game, but comparing both players in their early 20s, McGrady pretty much wins out over Kobe in every statistical category. Yeah, Mac never won shit, but neither would Kobe if his second option was a broken down Grant Hill and his go-to-guy in the post was a 75 year old Patrick Ewing.

[midnightpulp]

mightnight, when will you be re-joining the RK and helping us with our calculated shit bombs :lol

Man, both you and Mono are my niggas. Why you gotta make me choose between the two Krews? I'll just stay independent and back up both of you cats when the situation calls for it.

[Killakobe81]

Yeah, that's why back in early 00s, everyone except dumbass Laker fans considered McGrady the better player.

That said, even if McGrady stayed healthy, I still think Kobe eventually becomes the better player due to his work ethic and his never ending drive to improve his game, but comparing both players in their early 20s, McGrady pretty much wins out over Kobe in every statistical category. Yeah, Mac never won shit, but neither would Kobe if his second option was a broken down Grant Hill and his go-to-guy in the post was a 75 year old Patrick Ewing.

Very scientific, mature and unbiased pulp, "everyone but dumbass Laker fans"?! ... LOL.
Stats, Seriously?! if that is the case, some stats could argue that Karl malone was greater PF than tim duncan. Question mid, ...
IF Mcgrady was so much the better player .. why did Kobe beat out TMAC in most GM and media polls? And dont give me that media hype crap, because that never hurt duncan.
Again, TMAc was an amazingly gifted player but greatly overrated. His playoff failures are legendary and even his former coach Van Gundy griped at because ball came to easy for McGrady, he never worked that hard at it. Sure he had the "potential" to be better than Kobe (he was like Pippen 2.0 much better on offense just not as good on defense). But Derrick Coleman also had great potential too ...

BTW I love how Spur fan, can use stats when it suits their argument but ignore it at other times. Sure TMAc had some great stats he was 6 foot 8 playing two guard with a great wing span. But using stats alone as the crux of your argument, will never sway me. Kobe was better at 18,19,20, 21, 22 ...Maybe TMAc has a two year stretch (23, 24) where those who do not truly know ball thought he was better, but I never was that impressed. Tmac was a great streak shooter, awesome finisher but his fundamentals were never on par with Kobe. I know scoring all those points on Bowen in a few seconds, when Bruce was in his prime, impresses the shit out of Spur fan ...but Kobe gave yall similar treatment in the playoffs.

[Killakobe81]

ALL NBA in early 2000's

1999-2000 Kobe 2nd team Mcgrady? does not make 3rd team
2000-2001 Kobe 2nd team TMAC 2nd team as well ...
2001-2002 Kobe 1st team Mcgardy 1st team
2002-2003 Kobe 1st team McGrady 1st team
2003-2004 Kobe 1st team McGrady 2nd team
2004-2005 Both on 3rd team
2005-2006 Kobe 1st team McGrady missing I believe is hurt but who knows?

So not only Laker fans, but the basketbal writers only put TMAc and Kobe on the same level 2 of the first 6 seasons of the ealy 2000's but yet EVERYONE except dumb Lakers fans KNEW TMAC was better, because of the STATS ...

[Koolaid_Man]

Very scientific, mature and unbiased pulp, everyone but dumbass Laker fans ... LOL. Stats if that is the case, some stats could argue that Karl malone was greater PF than tim duncan. Question ...
IF Mcgrady was so much the better player why did Kobe beat out TMAC in most GM and media polls? And dont give me that media hype crap, because that never hurt duncan.
Again TMAc was an amazingly gifted player but greatly overrated. His playoff failures are legendary and even his former coach Van Gundy griped at because ball came to easy for McGrady, he never worked that hard at it. Sure he had the "potential" to be better than Kobe (he was like Pippen 2.0 much better on offense just not as good on defense). But Derrick Coleman also had great potential too ...

BTW I love how Spur fan, can use stats when it suits their argument but ignore it at other times. Sure TMAc had some great stats he was 6 foot 8 playing two guard with a great wing span. But using stats alone as the crux of your argument, will never sway me. Kobe was better at 18,19,20, 21, 22 ...Maybe TMAc has a two year stretch where those who do truly no ball thought he was better, but I never was that impressed. Tmac was a great streak shooter, awesome finisher but his fundamentals were never on par with Kobe. I know scoring all those points on Bowen in a few seconds, when Bruce was in his prime, impresses the shit out of Spur fan ...but Kobe gave yall similar treatment in the playoffs.


Dam....don't pull out....stay in Mids ass....:lol

[Koolaid_Man]

ALL NBA in early 2000's

1999-2000 Kobe 2nd team Mcgrady? does not make 3rd team
2000-2001 Kobe 2nd team TMAC 2nd team as well ...
2001-2002 Kobe 1st team Mcgardy 1st team
2002-2003 Kobe 1st team McGrady 1st team
2003-2004 Kobe 1st team McGrady 2nd team
2004-2005 Both on 3rd team
2005-2006 Kobe 1st team McGrady missing I believe is hurt but who knows?

So not only Laker fans, but the basketbal writers only put TMAc and Kobe on the same level 2 of the first 6 seasons of the ealy 2000's but yet EVERYONE except dumb Lakers fans KNEW TMAC was better, because of the STATS ...


"I said Luther stop lying....I grabbed my keys and went to my hotel room and turned in the TV to watch Kobe play." - Tracy Mcgrady...

[midnightpulp]

[QUOTE]Very scientific, mature and unbiased pulp, everyone but dumbass Laker fans ... LOL. Stats if that is the case, some stats could argue that Karl malone was greater PF than tim duncan.

But Malone's stats, regular season and playoffs, aren't better than Tim Duncan's other than ppg. Tmac surpassed Kobe in nearly every statistical category during their respective early primes.


Question ...
IF Mcgrady was so much the better player why did Kobe beat out TMAC in most GM and media polls? And dont give me that media hype crap, because that never hurt duncan.

Produce those polls from 00 to 03. The GMs didn't really start swinging on Kobe nuts until 06. And if it was such a foregone conclusion that Kobe was a better player, why then did Tmac finish higher than him in MVP voting in 01 and 02? Oh, I know: "Because Shaq took away votes from Kobe, and besides, the MVP award is meaningless anyway. Steve Nash won not one, but two!"


Again TMAc was an amazingly gifted player but greatly overrated. His playoff failures are legendary and even his former coach Van Gundy griped at because ball came to easy for McGrady, he never worked that hard at it. Sure he had the "potential" to be better than Kobe (he was like Pippen 2.0 much better on offense just not as good on defense). But Derrick Coleman also had great potential too ...

And when Kobe was given a similar shit roster comparable to Tmac's Orlando supporting cast, his playoff failures were quite spectacular as well. Missed the playoffs and exited the first round in back to back years, which included a choke job to a Suns team, that in reality, weren't really all that much better on paper than the Lakers.


BTW I love how Spur fan, can use stats when it suits their argument but ignore it at other times.

When I have ignored any statistical argument out of hand?


Kobe was better at 18,19,20, 21, 22 ...

Prove it.


Maybe TMAc has a two year stretch where those who do truly no ball thought he was better, but I never was that impressed. Tmac was a great streak shooter, awesome finisher but his fundamentals were never on par with Kobe. I know scoring all those points on Bowen in a few seconds, when Bruce was in his prime, impresses the shit out of Spur fan ...but Kobe gave yall similar treatment in the playoffs.

Lol. And Kobe's not a streak shooter? Futhermore, Kobe wasn't the refined fundamental player in those days as he is today. He relied much more on his athleticism and had nowhere near the post game or midrange jumper. And that's precisely why I think Kobe still ends up the better player. I doubt Tmac would continue to work on his game as his athleticism declined like Kobe has.

That said, it's funny how sensitive Kobe fans are that another wing player just might have better than their hero for a whole 2 or 3 seasons! KG was the better player than Duncan in '04, when both were in their primes. Dirk was very close to Duncan in '06, again, both players in their primes.

It's not an insult to Kobe to say Tmac was the better player for those 2 or 3 seasons. Everything, from stats to on the court performances, suggest that he was.

[picc84]

Tmac at his prime was definitely Kobe's peer offensively, but Kobe was so much better defensively and in the intangible department thats where the separation came.

Tmac had the potential to be the best swingman post Jordan, over Kobe, Lebron, Wade, everyone. He didn't assert himself enough and never cared about winning at all costs. He was having too much fun playing, and when he wasn't having fun he turned the switch off. Part of the reason every Tmac discussion on the planet revolves around one single season.

The other part being Mr. Glass of course.

[midnightpulp]

Tmac at his prime was definitely Kobe's peer offensively, but Kobe was so much better defensively and in the intangible department thats where the separation came.

Tmac had the potential to be the best swingman post Jordan, over Kobe, Lebron, Wade, everyone. He didn't assert himself enough and never cared about winning at all costs. He was having too much fun playing, and when he wasn't having fun he turned the switch off. Part of the reason every Tmac discussion on the planet revolves around one single season.

"Intangibles" come a whole easier when the best big man of all time (which Shaq was during the 3 peat years, although repeat Hakeem is his equal) is your teammate. On the other hand, Tmac's "best big" was a collection of a 39 year old Patrick Ewing, a 300 pound Shawn Kemp, a 36 year old Horace Grant, Andrew DeClerq, Pat Burke, and a rookie Drew Gooden. Again, when Kobe was given a similar supporting cast, those "intangibles" seemed to vanish, even to the point where they devolved to outright pouting and quitting.

I do think Kobe was better defensively, but "not so much better." A tier above, for sure, but he didn't blow Tmac out of the water in that department. Tmac's defensive rating was about the same in those days.

[Killakobe81]

[QUOTE=Killakobe81;5389280]

But Malone's stats, regular season and playoffs, aren't better than Tim Duncan's other than ppg. Tmac surpassed Kobe in nearly every statistical category during their respective early primes.



Produce those polls from 00 to 03. The GMs didn't really start swinging on Kobe nuts until 06. And if it was such a foregone conclusion that Kobe was a better player, why then did Tmac finish higher than him in MVP voting in 01 dn 02? Oh, I know: "Because Shaq took away votes from Kobe, and besides, the MVP award is meaningless anyway. Steve Nash won not one, but two!"



And when Kobe was given a similar shit roster comparable to Tmac's Orlando supporting cast, his playoff failures were quite spectacular as well. Missed the playoffs and exited the first round in back to back years, which included a choke job to a Suns team, that in reality, weren't really all that much better on paper than the Lakers.



When I have ignored any statistical argument out of hand?



Prove it.



Lol. And Kobe's not a streak shooter? Futhermore, Kobe wasn't the refined fundamental player in those days as he is today. He relied much more on his athleticism and had nowhere near the post game or midrange jumper. And that's precisely why I think Kobe still ends up the better player. I doubt Tmac would continue to work on his game as his athleticism declined like Kobe has.

That said, it's funny how sensitive Kobe fans are that another wing player just might have better than their hero for a whole 2 or 3 seasons! KG was the better player than Duncan in '04, when both were in their primes. Dirk was very close to Duncan in '06, again, both players in their primes.

It's not an insult to Kobe to say Tmac was the better player for those 2 or 3 seasons. Everything, from stats to on the court performances, suggest that he was.

I freely admitted that there were at least 2 seasons where they were on par, and some could argue 3. I just told you I personally never thought TMAC was better just like I never thought Kobe was better than MJ even after 81. Sure Kobe's post game and mid-range jumper have improved but to me, even at that time he was better at both than TMAC. TMAc scored with his first step, length and was a better 3 point shooter than Kobe. I also think he was a more willing passer. No I don't have a problem with anyone saying someone is beter than Kobe (I gave Lebron all sorts of praise last year) but though a fan of his gifts I just think TMAc is overrated. I think a prime Grant Hill was a better all-around player (than TMAC) and I fucking hate Duke.

If people made the case you were making for hill I would more apt to conside r it ...but to me, TMAC was never in that class of player. Sure he had more highlights than both for a few seasons ...but "game" and skills he is lacking ...

[midnightpulp]

ALL NBA in early 2000's

1999-2000 Kobe 2nd team Mcgrady? does not make 3rd team
2000-2001 Kobe 2nd team TMAC 2nd team as well ...
2001-2002 Kobe 1st team Mcgardy 1st team
2002-2003 Kobe 1st team McGrady 1st team
2003-2004 Kobe 1st team McGrady 2nd team
2004-2005 Both on 3rd team
2005-2006 Kobe 1st team McGrady missing I believe is hurt but who knows?

So not only Laker fans, but the basketbal writers only put TMAc and Kobe on the same level 2 of the first 6 seasons of the ealy 2000's but yet EVERYONE except dumb Lakers fans KNEW TMAC was better, because of the STATS ...

And? Jordan and Mark Price shared a 1st team spot at once point. Magic and Jordan lived on the first team together in the early 90s when everyone knew at that point Jordan had surpassed Magic as the league's best player.

And I never said "Kobe wasn't on Tmac's level," just that Tmac was the better player.

[picc84]

"Intangibles" come a whole easier when the best big man of all time (which Shaq was during the 3 peat years, although repeat Hakeem is his equal) is your teammate. On the other hand, Tmac's "best big" was a collection of a 39 year old Patrick Ewing, a 300 pound Shawn Kemp, a 36 year old Horace Grant, Andrew DeClerq, Pat Burke, and a rookie Drew Gooden. Again, when Kobe was given a similar supporting cast, those "intangibles" seemed to vanish, even to the point where they devolved to outright pouting and quitting.

I do think Kobe was better defensively, but "not so much better." A tier above, for sure, but he didn't blow Tmac out of the water in that department. Tmac's defensive rating was about the same in those days.


I agree on Tmac's Orlando teammates. They were even worse than Kobe's mid-decade Laker ones. I don't put any blame whatsoever on Tracy for not having any playoff success in Orlando.

But for a superstar player, he had enough help in Houston, and was close enough to his prime, that he should have made it out of the first round at least once.

Homecourt advantage plus the 1st or 2nd best center in the league in Yao and playing a mid-tier opponent like the Utah Jazz. I wouldn't expect Ray Allen to take those Rockets into the semifinals. I would certainly expect Tracy McGrady to, as talented as he was.

And I feel like if you put Kobe's brain in Tmac's body during the Houston years with Yao they see the 2nd round at least once. Thats where the intangibles matter.

I don't feel like we're disagreeing too much on this. Orlando Tracy was Kobe's peer offensively, had the talent to be better overall, and shouldn't have his early playoff exits held against him. No question on that.

I do think some of your Kobe statements were wrong though. For one, Kobe isn't a streak shooter (neither was Tmac for that matter) - John Starks was a streak shooter. Kobe will very reliably get you 30 points a night on mostly contested jumpshots. He only seems "streaky" at times because of his ability to go for 55+ at the drop of a dime.

Also, Kobe had a refined post-game by 1998 and by 2003 it was 95% as good as it is now. His mid-range as well.

Tmac was a comparable scorer because of his length and athleticism but Kobe always was more versatile in his scoring methods. The athleticism you referenced (about #8) only gave him more options, so he was less reliant on the post/midrange than he is now. Less reliant - not necessarily less effective.

[Killakobe81]

And? Jordan and Mark Price shared a 1st team spot at once point. Magic and Jordan lived on the first team together in the early 90s when everyone knew at that point Jordan had surpassed Magic as the league's best player.

And I never said "Kobe wasn't on Tmac's level," just that Tmac was the better player.

Not saying ALL NBA isnt just opinions ... even if it's more informed then guys on a pickup court at the local gym. But you were the one that said ONLY Laker fans thought Kobe was better, I proved to you that was false. I am not going to spend the timelooking at old articles but ALL NBA seemed like a logical place to point out the opiniion of Kobe vs. TMAc. There were a few seasosn were TMAC got more MVP votes than Kobe, so to be fair that should be mentioned as well. but aLL NBA seems to be less political than MVP which seems to be more sentimental. But I started this by saying I FEEL he is overrated, you made the wild statement that ONLY DUMB Laker fans feel this way, and tried to use stats when your original statement (that i challenged) cant be backed by stats.

BTW, why you shitting on Mark price? I thought he was a bit overrated but offensively he could do what Stockton did but was a much better shooter/scorer. John gets the edge defensively but was overrated a bit there too ...TBH.

[midnightpulp]

[QUOTE=midnightpulp;5389301]

I freely admitted that there were at least 2 seasons where they were on par, and some could argue 3. I just told you I personally never thought TMAC was better just like I never thought Kobe was better than MJ even after 81. Sure Kobe's post game and mid-range jumper have improved but to me, even at that time he was better at both than TMAC. TMAc scored with his first step, length and was a better 3 point shooter than Kobe. I also think he was a more willing passer. No I don't have a problem with anyone saying someone is beter than Kobe (I gave Lebron all sorts of praise last year) but though a fan of his gifts I just think TMAc is overrated. I think a prime Grant Hill was a better all-around player (than TMAC) and I fucking hate Duke.

If people made the case you were making for hill I would more apt to conside r it ...but to me, TMAC was never in that class of player. Sure he had more highlights than both for a few seasons ...but "game" and skills he is lacking ...

I'm not sure how you think Tmac is overrated when no one, especially the media, exalted the guy in the first place, instead choosing to focus on his "playoff failures," which were really never his fault to begin with. Only hardcore fans who remember what the guy was like in his youth give him any recognition. I mean, seriously, go to bball reference and check out Tmac's supporting cast in Orlando. Then he arrives in Houston, where the 3rd best player on the team is Mike James. Sure, McGrady was inconsistent to downright terrible against Dallas in the playoffs that year, blowing a 2-0 lead they got on the road, but what marquee player hasn't been inconsistent or awful in a playoff series?

[Killakobe81]

And? Jordan and Mark Price shared a 1st team spot at once point. Magic and Jordan lived on the first team together in the early 90s when everyone knew at that point Jordan had surpassed Magic as the league's best player.

And I never said "Kobe wasn't on Tmac's level," just that Tmac was the better player.

I dont get the argument. why would it not make sense for Price or Magic to be the other ALL NBA guard next to MJ?

[Jose Canseco]

From my own personal experience, I recall T-Mac being viewed as a more naturally gifted basketball player than Kobe in the early 2000s, but not necessarily the better player. There were times in that early 3 peat Laker run where some people (again this just in my experience among my circle of friends and what not) who would argue that guys like Vince or T-Mac or Iverson could have done the same thing as Kobe did if they were on the Lakers with Shaq. But Kobe did start getting more recognition as an elite player as early as the 2001 playoffs based on that Spurs series where Kobe just went off at an unstoppable pace.

Kobe and T-Mac were definitely peers in those early 2000s seasons. I think the difference is that T-Mac was viewed as naturally more gifted. And Kobe was viewed more polished and skilled. I'm sure there were detractors of Kobe because of the team he played for and playing alongside Shaq. But it wasn't unanimous or a consensus that T-Mac was better than Kobe back then. It was arguable. T-Mac put up one of great statistical seasons together in 2002-03 and yet Kobe pretty much matched him that same season and finished higher in MVP voting. So T-Mac's best season was pretty much a wash with Kobe, just like many of the other seasons in the early 2000s. In some ways, I recall Vince in the late 90s and early 2000s before his career started to spiral was a more compelling comparison and debate as to who was better between him and Kobe.

[midnightpulp]

I agree on Tmac's Orlando teammates. They were even worse than Kobe's mid-decade Laker ones. I don't put any blame whatsoever on Tracy for not having any playoff success in Orlando.

But for a superstar player, he had enough help in Houston, and was close enough to his prime, that he should have made it out of the first round at least once.

Homecourt advantage plus the 1st or 2nd best center in the league in Yao and playing a mid-tier opponent like the Utah Jazz. I wouldn't expect Ray Allen to take those Rockets into the semifinals. I would certainly expect Tracy McGrady to, as talented as he was.

And I feel like if you put Kobe's brain in Tmac's body during the Houston years with Yao they see the 2nd round at least once. Thats where the intangibles matter.

I don't feel like we're disagreeing too much on this. Orlando Tracy was Kobe's peer offensively, had the talent to be better overall, and shouldn't have his early playoff exits held against him. No question on that.

I do think some of your Kobe statements were wrong though. For one, Kobe isn't a streak shooter (neither was Tmac for that matter) - John Starks was a streak shooter. Kobe will very reliably get you 30 points a night on mostly contested jumpshots. He only seems "streaky" at times because of his ability to go for 55+ at the drop of a dime.

Also, Kobe had a refined post-game by 1998 and by 2003 it was 95% as good as it is now. His mid-range as well.

Tmac was a comparable scorer because of his length and athleticism but Kobe always was more versatile in his scoring methods. The athleticism you referenced (about #8) only gave him more options, so he was less reliant on the post/midrange than he is now. Less reliant - not necessarily less effective.

By the time Tmac got to Houston, the argument was over. McGrady was levels below Kobe at that point. He was still good in '05, but his Orlando days are what I consider his prime.

I don't agree that Kobe's post game was 95% as good in '03 as it is now. Because he was younger, he was obviously quicker with his drop step move from the post position, but he had nowhere near the arsenal of moves he has today. He also goes to the low post much more today compared to then.

It also stands to reason if you become more reliant on something you also become better at it by virtue of increased use. Naturally, Kobe would become more effective in the post and with the midrange jumper because he had to go to those more as his athleticism declined.

[midnightpulp]

I dont get the argument. why would it not make sense for Price or Magic to be the other ALL NBA guard next to MJ?

I didn't say that. I was contending your position that if two players share a spot on an All NBA team, they're ostensibly equals, which you seemed to imply with the way you presented the argument.

Of course Magic would belong on the first team in those years, but just because he is, doesn't mean he's Jordan's equal, and in the early 90s, Jordan was a tier above Magic as a player (fwiw, MJ was a tier above everyone), despite the fact they both made the first team at the guard position.

As a disclaimer, don't get angry. I'm not dissing Magic, or saying Jordan is a tier above him for their careers, but Magic was already past his prime by the early 90s.

[Killakobe81]

I didn't say that. I was contending your position that if two players share a spot on an All NBA team, they're ostensibly equals, which you seemed to imply with the way you presented the argument.

Of course Magic would belong on the first team in those years, but just because he is, doesn't mean he's Jordan's equal, and in the early 90s, Jordan was a tier above Magic as a player (fwiw, MJ was a tier above everyone), despite the fact they both made the first team at the guard position.

As a disclaimer, don't get angry. I'm not dissing Magic, or saying Jordan is a tier above him for their careers, but Magic was already past his prime by the early 90s.

LOL i dont get angry on here ...I just dont get the unmitigated TMAc love by some folks. I remember arguing with cats at work about this same topic back in the 2000's and I remember some (not all and I was in NY at the time) thought TMAc was better others Kobe. My point again was it was NOT ONLY Kobe fans that thought Bryant was better. I get you were being smug, but your statement was false just the same.

[Killakobe81]

Much like Canseco the arguments for Vince, AI and in L.A. even Pierce was more fierce than TMAC ...

[Killakobe81]

I didn't say that. I was contending your position that if two players share a spot on an All NBA team, they're ostensibly equals, which you seemed to imply with the way you presented the argument.

Of course Magic would belong on the first team in those years, but just because he is, doesn't mean he's Jordan's equal, and in the early 90s, Jordan was a tier above Magic as a player (fwiw, MJ was a tier above everyone), despite the fact they both made the first team at the guard position.

As a disclaimer, don't get angry. I'm not dissing Magic, or saying Jordan is a tier above him for their careers, but Magic was already past his prime by the early 90s.

the same team point was just to show you perception, by non-Lakers fans.

[midnightpulp]

LOL i dont get angry on here ...I just dont get the unmitigated TMAc love by some folks. I remember arguing with cats at work about this same topic back in the 2000's and I remember some (not all and I was in NY at the time) thought TMAc was better others Kobe. My point again was it was NOT ONLY Kobe fans that thought Bryant was better. I get you were being smug, but your statement was false just the same.

Of course I was being smug and trolling to a degree with my "only dumbass Kobe fans" comment.

I know that comment was in a reply to your post, but that bullet was really meant for Kool and similar cocksuckers.

[picc84]

By the time Tmac got to Houston, the argument was over. McGrady was levels below Kobe at that point. He was still good in '05, but his Orlando days are what I consider his prime.

I don't agree that Kobe's post game was 95% as good in '03 as it is now. Because he was younger, he was obviously quicker with his drop step move from the post position, but he had nowhere near the arsenal of moves he has today. He also goes to the low post much more today compared to then.

It also stands to reason if you become more reliant on something you also become better at it by virtue of increased use. Naturally, Kobe would become more effective in the post and with the midrange jumper because he had to go to those more as his athleticism declined.

Houston was past his prime, but Tmac was still a 25/6/6 player in his first few years there. Thats good enough to get a team like the Rockets past the first round with homecourt, against mid-tier teams. At least, it should have been.

If you don't think Tmac lacks any intangibles Kobe has that's your prerogative, but it seems strange considering that is the thing every "Tmac was such a disappointment" discussion boils down to - even amongst his biggest fans.

re: post-game and mid-range

His post-game repertoire is more extensive and he's down there a lot more now, but there's only so much you can do as a guard. Kobe was getting double-teamed in the post before the Lakers won their first championship. Its always come natural to him.

The athleticism he had then allowed him to execute maneuvers faster. His post-up fadeaway was much better b/c he got more lift and separation. His drop-step and up and under was quicker and his release closer to the rim. Athleticism affects all aspects of your game, not just drives to the rim.

Mid-range wise his fingers have affected his ability to shoot, especiallly off-balance, in recent years. From 2003-2008 he pretty much had the same shooting ability. There's no jumpshot you can find him making now that he wasn't making in 03.

[mavs>spurs]

I agree on Tmac's Orlando teammates. They were even worse than Kobe's mid-decade Laker ones. I don't put any blame whatsoever on Tracy for not having any playoff success in Orlando.

But for a superstar player, he had enough help in Houston, and was close enough to his prime, that he should have made it out of the first round at least once.
enough help like that 7'6 jinx or a dickhead PG like alston w/ no passing game? 04 was the zenith of t-mac's career and i think his prime would have lasted longer if he joined any other team instead of jinx's team imho



Homecourt advantage plus the 1st or 2nd best center in the league in Yao and playing a mid-tier opponent like the Utah Jazz. I wouldn't expect Ray Allen to take those Rockets into the semifinals. I would certainly expect Tracy McGrady to, as talented as he was.

no intention to hurt the chinks but yao was never a top 3 center of the league, bitch just cracked up his own stats at the cost of teammates'. yao was even more of a hyped-star then lebron tbh, an upgraded version of Shawn Bradley at finest.

Jazz was a mid-table team in the regular season but when it came the playoffs the games turned tougher which favored teams of jazz's style. houston played soft games and jazz were unfortunately a match-up nightmare to them, beating them in 2 consecutive seasons.

[mavs>spurs]

LOL i dont get angry on here ...I just dont get the unmitigated TMAc love by some folks. I remember arguing with cats at work about this same topic back in the 2000's and I remember some (not all and I was in NY at the time) thought TMAc was better others Kobe. My point again was it was NOT ONLY Kobe fans that thought Bryant was better. I get you were being smug, but your statement was false just the same.
hard to say who's the better player imho, they are both great players but kobe just got a bit of luck to play on a contending team and hence achieved bags of honors

Not only Kobe fans think kobe is better then t-mac, yao fans think the same and more. Shite fans just did their utmost to demean t-mac and to enamor that 7'6 jinx, and when the team lost in the playoffs they shed all criticism on t-mac and fellow niggas so Shite could come out criticism-free

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Y.H., bringing the muthafuckin goods

[Koolaid_Man]

enough help like that 7'6 jinx or a dickhead PG like alston w/ no passing game? 04 was the zenith of t-mac's career and i think his prime would have lasted longer if he joined any other team instead of jinx's team imho


no intention to hurt the chinks but yao was never a top 3 center of the league, bitch just cracked up his own stats at the cost of teammates'. yao was even more of a hyped-star then lebron tbh, an upgraded version of Shawn Bradley at finest.

Jazz was a mid-table team in the regular season but when it came the playoffs the games turned tougher which favored teams of jazz's style. houston played soft games and jazz were unfortunately a match-up nightmare to them, beating them in 2 consecutive seasons.

you fucking guys are a laughing riot I tell ya...:lol

Tmac was a facade...he basically had maybe 2 good years tops...:lol

now this cat played in the Leastern Conference for most of his career...this matters most when comparing records...he had it easy over there he didn't play in a stacked western conference where for many years the conference finals was considered the defacto Championship...The West is where the action was...Kobe was grinding it out while T-Mac was playing in a soft cake conference putting up numbers...No real battles....

now with my brilliant poker move I will allow Spur fan to lay on their swords...were the Spurs not contributors to a tough western conference or not....:lol and by virtue of this did Kobe not have a tougher road than TMAC...did Kobe not face tougher defenders night in and out...those tough Portland teams, Chris Webber led Kings, Spurs, stacked Suns team, The Mavs, even Utah and Denver...all the while in the eastern conference you literally be 10-15 games under .500 and still make the play-offs... puhlease faggots...Kobe proved his superiority over Tmac...:lol

don't make a nigga Kool bust out the fucking tapes :lol

[DMC]

lol at people who don't remember TMac when he was ballin'.

That motherfucker was Iverson on steroids, and many here don't remember AI when he was on top of his game either.

[DMC]

you fucking guys are a laughing riot I tell ya...:lol

Tmac was a facade...he basically had maybe 2 good years tops...:lol

now this cat played in the Leastern Conference for most of his career...this matters most when comparing records...he had it easy over there he didn't play in a stacked western conference where for many years the conference finals was considered the defacto Championship...The West is where the action was...Kobe was grinding it out while T-Mac was playing in a soft cake conference putting up numbers...No real battles....

now with my brilliant poker move I will allow Spur fan to lay on their swords...were the Spurs not contributors to a tough western conference or not....:lol and by virtue of this did Kobe not have a tougher road than TMAC...did Kobe not face tougher defenders night in and out...those tough Portland teams, Chris Webber led Kings, Spurs, stacked Suns team, The Mavs, even Utah and Denver...all the while in the eastern conference you literally be 10-15 games under .500 and still make the play-offs... puhlease faggots...Kobe proved his superiority over Tmac...:lol

don't make a nigga Kool bust out the fucking tapes :lol

lol at you posting 1000 words to defend Kobe over TMac. The OP already beat you.

[Koolaid_Man]

lol at you posting 1000 words to defend Kobe over TMac. The OP already beat you.


unless the Op is a bitch with big ass tits, a hot split, round ass and blondy locks..then no he didn't "beat" me...:lol

[DMC]

unless the Op is a bitch with big ass tits, a hot split, round ass and blondy locks..then no he didn't "beat" me...:lol
But you like tender loving cock. You said so yourself.

So you've been trolled into a froth. Simmer.

[joshdaboss]

I hate Kobe with a passion, but even I would take him over McGrady. In any time, era, whatever. McGrady is nothing but empty stats. He's never won a playoff series for christ sake.

[DMC]

I hate Kobe with a passion, but even I would take him over McGrady. In any time, era, whatever. McGrady is nothing but empty stats. He's never won a playoff series for christ sake.

No single player ever won a playoff series in the NBA. Kobe couldn't do it without a team around him either.

A chucker is a chucker...

[Bruce Wayne]

you fucking guys are a laughing riot I tell ya...:lol

Tmac was a facade...he basically had maybe 2 good years tops...:lol

now this cat played in the Leastern Conference for most of his career...this matters most when comparing records...he had it easy over there he didn't play in a stacked western conference where for many years the conference finals was considered the defacto Championship...The West is where the action was...Kobe was grinding it out while T-Mac was playing in a soft cake conference putting up numbers...No real battles....

now with my brilliant poker move I will allow Spur fan to lay on their swords...were the Spurs not contributors to a tough western conference or not....:lol and by virtue of this did Kobe not have a tougher road than TMAC...did Kobe not face tougher defenders night in and out...those tough Portland teams, Chris Webber led Kings, Spurs, stacked Suns team, The Mavs, even Utah and Denver...all the while in the eastern conference you literally be 10-15 games under .500 and still make the play-offs... puhlease faggots...Kobe proved his superiority over Tmac...:lol

don't make a nigga Kool bust out the fucking tapes :lol

MAD :wow:lol

[joshdaboss]

No single player ever won a playoff series in the NBA. Kobe couldn't do it without a team around him either.

A chucker is a chucker...

McGrady had Yao Ming, a dominant post player. And I'm not even talking about deep playoff runs here, I'm talking about winning ONE round. He's NEVER done it. To me, that's the epitome of overrated.

[djohn2oo8]

McGrady had Yao Ming, a dominant post player. And I'm not even talking about deep playoff runs here, I'm talking about winning ONE round. He's NEVER done it. To me, that's the epitome of overrated.

Lol when did McGrady have Yao? Yao was ineffective BOTH times they actually stayed health enough to play together in the playoffs

[Jose Canseco]

Lol when did McGrady have Yao? Yao was ineffective BOTH times they actually stayed health enough to play together in the playoffs

Yao 2005 playoffs: 21.4 PPG, 7.7 RPG
Yao 2007 playoffs: 25.1 PPG, 10.3 RPG

Yao wasn't Shaquille O'Neal or Tim Duncan in their primes. But he wasn't exactly Chris Mihm or Erick Dampier either.

[midnightpulp]

McGrady had Yao Ming, a dominant post player. And I'm not even talking about deep playoff runs here, I'm talking about winning ONE round. He's NEVER done it. To me, that's the epitome of overrated.

Yeah and in 2005 (Tmac's last year as an upper tier wing) after Yao Ming, who was the 3rd option?

Mike James.

[Jose Canseco]

T-Mac still put up 25/5/6 in 2006-07, played 71 games, had a healthy Yao for the playoffs, and homecourt advantage in that first round. T-Mac was still an elite wing player in 2007. 2nd team all NBA, all star, and finished 6th in MVP voting.

[midnightpulp]

T-Mac still put up 25/5/6 in 2006-07, played 71 games, had a healthy Yao for the playoffs, and homecourt advantage in that first round. T-Mac was still an elite wing player in 2007. 2nd team all NBA, all star, and finished 6th in MVP voting.

But he still wasn't the player he was in Orlando after the '06 injuries.

Anyhow, Tmac had a very strong Game 7, as did Yao, but the Jazz were simply deeper and more talented. I guess the knock on him in that series is that he never took over a road game. He was flat out awful in Utah.

[Koolaid_Man]

But he still wasn't the player he was in Orlando after the '06 injuries.

Anyhow, Tmac had a very strong Game 7, as did Yao, but the Jazz were simply deeper and more talented. I guess the knock on him in that series is that he never took over a road game. He was flat out awful in Utah.

:lmao

Cry me a gotdam river.....cry me a river...I don't give a shit bout his knees he simply couldn't keep up Tha Kobster....:lol

Can you dig it......:lol

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

T-Mac still put up 25/5/6 in 2006-07, played 71 games, had a healthy Yao for the playoffs, and homecourt advantage in that first round. T-Mac was still an elite wing player in 2007. 2nd team all NBA, all star, and finished 6th in MVP voting.
Maybe I'm remembering this wrong (I'm honestly not sure) but didn't Yao fall apart in game 7 against Utah? Not saying T-Mac doesn't get any blame, but I remember Yao getting shat on by Boozer during several crucial moments in that game 7.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

And yeah T-Mac was still an elite player in 07 but he wasn't prime T-Mac. After the 2005 season he never had the same ridiculous athleticism and explosiveness he had up until that point.

I'd say T-Mac at his peak isn't far from Kobe, but the difference is Kobe played at that high level for 10+ years. Vince Carter at his best, T-Mac at his best, etc., are comparable to Kobe, but their best only lasted for a few years and it was never on a team that made a deep playoff run. No matter how good a player is, if his best years are on a mediocre team it hurts his legacy. 3 years right in the middle of Kobe's prime being on a bad team undoubtedly hurt his legacy.

[midnightpulp]

Maybe I'm remembering this wrong (I'm honestly not sure) but didn't Yao fall apart in game 7 against Utah? Not saying T-Mac doesn't get any blame, but I remember Yao getting shat on by Boozer during several crucial moments in that game 7.

Yeah, Boozer wrecked him that game. Yao still had a very respectable 29 points, but only 6 boards, which is unacceptable in a game of that magnitude for someone who is 7 foot 6 against a relatively weak defensive frontline of Boozer and Okur.

[djohn2oo8]

Maybe I'm remembering this wrong (I'm honestly not sure) but didn't Yao fall apart in game 7 against Utah? Not saying T-Mac doesn't get any blame, but I remember Yao getting shat on by Boozer during several crucial moments in that game 7.

Exactly. Even though T-mac deserves some blame, you'll never see any Yaofans admit the real truth.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Actually I'm looking at the play-by-play of that game and T-Mac fucked up as much as Yao. They were up by 5 with 6 minutes left and everyone on that team including T-Mac fell apart.

However all the offensive rebounds Utah got at the end of that game fall on Yao, and an underlying problem still was that shit players like Juwan Howard were playing crucial minutes because of how bad Houston's role players were.

[Jose Canseco]

Maybe I'm remembering this wrong (I'm honestly not sure) but didn't Yao fall apart in game 7 against Utah? Not saying T-Mac doesn't get any blame, but I remember Yao getting shat on by Boozer during several crucial moments in that game 7.

Could be true. I personally don't recall. I was just responding to the claim that T-Mac was no longer an "upper tier wing" after the 2005 season. He still put up the numbers and got awards that would clearly still make him an upper tier wing after the 2005 season. Certainly not a prime T-Mac, but when you're an all star, an all NBA performer, and finish 6th in MVP voting, I don't think someone can argue he was no longer an upper tier wing.

[djohn2oo8]

Actually I'm looking at the play-by-play of that game and T-Mac fucked up as much as Yao. They were up by 5 with 6 minutes left and everyone on that team including T-Mac fell apart.

However all the offensive rebounds Utah got at the end of that game fall on Yao, and an underlying problem still was that shit players like Juwan Howard were playing crucial minutes because of how bad Houston's role players were.

Yeah, Juwan, Alston, Mike James, :depressed

[Koolaid_Man]

Actually I'm looking at the play-by-play of that game and T-Mac fucked up as much as Yao. They were up by 5 with 6 minutes left and everyone on that team including T-Mac fell apart.

However all the offensive rebounds Utah got at the end of that game fall on Yao, and an underlying problem still was that shit players like Juwan Howard were playing crucial minutes because of how bad Houston's role players were.

I could give 2 fucks yo....nigga wasn't as good as the Kobster

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Yeah, Juwan, Alston, Mike James, :depressed
Jeff Van Gundy being a terrible coach in Houston was also a problem, particularly because of how bad he was against up-tempo, PG dominant teams. I remember every Houston vs. Phoenix matchup from 2005-2007 D'antoni outcoached the shit out of Van Gundy, the Suns dictated the tempo of the game, and Nash would put up ungodly numbers.

2008 was really the do or die year for Houston. T-Mac was playing at an MVP level, they were the 1 seed when Yao went down (I think), the West was really competitive but their was no dominant team in the conference that year, and their supporting cast wasn't as bad as it used to be.

[midnightpulp]

Could be true. I personally don't recall. I was just responding to the claim that T-Mac was no longer an "upper tier wing" after the 2005 season. He still put up the numbers and got awards that would clearly still make him an upper tier wing after the 2005 season. Certainly not a prime T-Mac, but when you're an all star, an all NBA performer, and finish 6th in MVP voting, I don't think someone can argue he was no longer an upper tier wing.

Maybe I should've used the term "top tier" which at that time was (and still is) occupied by Kobe, Lebron, and Wade, who Tmac was definitely a level below.

[Koolaid_Man]

Maybe I should've used the term "top tier" which at that time was (and still is) occupied by Kobe, Lebron, and Wade, who Tmac was definitely a level below.

Just don't give a fuck midget....

[picc84]

If you can't expect a 25/5/7 Tmac to get out of the first round with homecourt and a 25/10 center, you can't ever expect it.

No one thinks they should have made the finals. But the first round? Come on.

[lefty]

http://blacksportsonline.com/index/tmax.gif

[midnightpulp]

If you can't expect a 25/5/7 Tmac to get out of the first round with homecourt and a 25/10 center, you can't ever expect it.

No one thinks they should have made the finals. But the first round? Come on.

There's really no excusing it. Again, he blew ass on the road.

[midnightpulp]

Just don't give a fuck midget....


http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx261/OGBobbyJohsonOWNsKoolaidman/koolaid3-1.jpg

http://www.blackplanet.com/koolaid_man/

[djohn2oo8]

http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx261/OGBobbyJohsonOWNsKoolaidman/koolaid3-1.jpg

http://www.blackplanet.com/koolaid_man/

:lmao

[lefty]

http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx261/OGBobbyJohsonOWNsKoolaidman/koolaid3-1.jpg

http://www.blackplanet.com/koolaid_man/
:lmao:rollin

[pass1st]

http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx261/OGBobbyJohsonOWNsKoolaidman/koolaid3-1.jpg

http://www.blackplanet.com/koolaid_man/

Guess paying child support counts as being as a parent

[nevitt_&_smrek]

He'll go down as the 2nd greatest shooting guard ever & the all-time leading scorer for the league's flagship franchise. While he isn't the most trustworthy guy in the biggest games, his overall body of work is quite impressive.