Glad to see the justice department has time to go after hardcore criminals like Gibso

[CosmicCowboy]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904787404576530520471223268.html

Federal agents swooped in on Gibson Guitar Wednesday, raiding factories and offices in Memphis and Nashville, seizing several pallets of wood, electronic files and guitars. The Feds are keeping mum, but in a statement yesterday Gibson's chairman and CEO, Henry Juszkiewicz, defended his company's manufacturing policies, accusing the Justice Department of bullying the company. "The wood the government seized Wednesday is from a Forest Stewardship Council certified supplier," he said, suggesting the Feds are using the aggressive enforcement of overly broad laws to make the company cry uncle.

It isn't the first time that agents of the Fish and Wildlife Service have come knocking at the storied maker of such iconic instruments as the Les Paul electric guitar, the J-160E acoustic-electric John Lennon played, and essential jazz-boxes such as Charlie Christian's ES-150. In 2009 the Feds seized several guitars and pallets of wood from a Gibson factory, and both sides have been wrangling over the goods in a case with the delightful name "United States of America v. Ebony Wood in Various Forms."

The question in the first raid seemed to be whether Gibson had been buying illegally harvested hardwoods from protected forests, such as the Madagascar ebony that makes for such lovely fretboards. And if Gibson did knowingly import illegally harvested ebony from Madagascar, that wouldn't be a negligible offense. Peter Lowry, ebony and rosewood expert at the Missouri Botanical Garden, calls the Madagascar wood trade the "equivalent of Africa's blood diamonds." But with the new raid, the government seems to be questioning whether some wood sourced from India met every regulatory jot and tittle.

It isn't just Gibson that is sweating. Musicians who play vintage guitars and other instruments made of environmentally protected materials are worried the authorities may be coming for them next.

If you are the lucky owner of a 1920s Martin guitar, it may well be made, in part, of Brazilian rosewood. Cross an international border with an instrument made of that now-restricted wood, and you better have correct and complete documentation proving the age of the instrument. Otherwise, you could lose it to a zealous customs agent—not to mention face fines and prosecution.

John Thomas, a law professor at Quinnipiac University and a blues and ragtime guitarist, says "there's a lot of anxiety, and it's well justified." Once upon a time, he would have taken one of his vintage guitars on his travels. Now, "I don't go out of the country with a wooden guitar."

The tangled intersection of international laws is enforced through a thicket of paperwork. Recent revisions to 1900's Lacey Act require that anyone crossing the U.S. border declare every bit of flora or fauna being brought into the country. One is under "strict liability" to fill out the paperwork—and without any mistakes.

It's not enough to know that the body of your old guitar is made of spruce and maple: What's the bridge made of? If it's ebony, do you have the paperwork to show when and where that wood was harvested and when and where it was made into a bridge? Is the nut holding the strings at the guitar's headstock bone, or could it be ivory? "Even if you have no knowledge—despite Herculean efforts to obtain it—that some piece of your guitar, no matter how small, was obtained illegally, you lose your guitar forever," Prof. Thomas has written. "Oh, and you'll be fined $250 for that false (or missing) information in your Lacey Act Import Declaration."

Consider the recent experience of Pascal Vieillard, whose Atlanta-area company, A-440 Pianos, imported several antique Bösendorfers. Mr. Vieillard asked officials at the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species how to fill out the correct paperwork—which simply encouraged them to alert U.S. Customs to give his shipment added scrutiny.

There was never any question that the instruments were old enough to have grandfathered ivory keys. But Mr. Vieillard didn't have his paperwork straight when two-dozen federal agents came calling.

Facing criminal charges that might have put him in prison for years, Mr. Vieillard pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor count of violating the Lacey Act, and was handed a $17,500 fine and three years probation.

Given the risks, why don't musicians just settle for the safety of carbon fiber? Some do—when concert pianist Jeffrey Sharkey moved to England two decades ago, he had Steinway replace the ivories on his piano with plastic.

Still, musicians cling to the old materials. Last year, Dick Boak, director of artist relations for C.F. Martin & Co., complained to Mother Nature News about the difficulty of getting elite guitarists to switch to instruments made from sustainable materials. "Surprisingly, musicians, who represent some of the most savvy, ecologically minded people around, are resistant to anything about changing the tone of their guitars," he said.

You could mark that up to hypocrisy—artsy do-gooders only too eager to tell others what kind of light bulbs they have to buy won't make sacrifices when it comes to their own passions. Then again, maybe it isn't hypocrisy to recognize that art makes claims significant enough to compete with environmentalists' agendas.

[George Gervin's Afro]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904787404576530520471223268.html

Federal agents swooped in on Gibson Guitar Wednesday, raiding factories and offices in Memphis and Nashville, seizing several pallets of wood, electronic files and guitars. The Feds are keeping mum, but in a statement yesterday Gibson's chairman and CEO, Henry Juszkiewicz, defended his company's manufacturing policies, accusing the Justice Department of bullying the company. "The wood the government seized Wednesday is from a Forest Stewardship Council certified supplier," he said, suggesting the Feds are using the aggressive enforcement of overly broad laws to make the company cry uncle.

It isn't the first time that agents of the Fish and Wildlife Service have come knocking at the storied maker of such iconic instruments as the Les Paul electric guitar, the J-160E acoustic-electric John Lennon played, and essential jazz-boxes such as Charlie Christian's ES-150. In 2009 the Feds seized several guitars and pallets of wood from a Gibson factory, and both sides have been wrangling over the goods in a case with the delightful name "United States of America v. Ebony Wood in Various Forms."

The question in the first raid seemed to be whether Gibson had been buying illegally harvested hardwoods from protected forests, such as the Madagascar ebony that makes for such lovely fretboards. And if Gibson did knowingly import illegally harvested ebony from Madagascar, that wouldn't be a negligible offense. Peter Lowry, ebony and rosewood expert at the Missouri Botanical Garden, calls the Madagascar wood trade the "equivalent of Africa's blood diamonds." But with the new raid, the government seems to be questioning whether some wood sourced from India met every regulatory jot and tittle.

It isn't just Gibson that is sweating. Musicians who play vintage guitars and other instruments made of environmentally protected materials are worried the authorities may be coming for them next.

If you are the lucky owner of a 1920s Martin guitar, it may well be made, in part, of Brazilian rosewood. Cross an international border with an instrument made of that now-restricted wood, and you better have correct and complete documentation proving the age of the instrument. Otherwise, you could lose it to a zealous customs agent—not to mention face fines and prosecution.

John Thomas, a law professor at Quinnipiac University and a blues and ragtime guitarist, says "there's a lot of anxiety, and it's well justified." Once upon a time, he would have taken one of his vintage guitars on his travels. Now, "I don't go out of the country with a wooden guitar."

The tangled intersection of international laws is enforced through a thicket of paperwork. Recent revisions to 1900's Lacey Act require that anyone crossing the U.S. border declare every bit of flora or fauna being brought into the country. One is under "strict liability" to fill out the paperwork—and without any mistakes.

It's not enough to know that the body of your old guitar is made of spruce and maple: What's the bridge made of? If it's ebony, do you have the paperwork to show when and where that wood was harvested and when and where it was made into a bridge? Is the nut holding the strings at the guitar's headstock bone, or could it be ivory? "Even if you have no knowledge—despite Herculean efforts to obtain it—that some piece of your guitar, no matter how small, was obtained illegally, you lose your guitar forever," Prof. Thomas has written. "Oh, and you'll be fined $250 for that false (or missing) information in your Lacey Act Import Declaration."

Consider the recent experience of Pascal Vieillard, whose Atlanta-area company, A-440 Pianos, imported several antique Bösendorfers. Mr. Vieillard asked officials at the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species how to fill out the correct paperwork—which simply encouraged them to alert U.S. Customs to give his shipment added scrutiny.

There was never any question that the instruments were old enough to have grandfathered ivory keys. But Mr. Vieillard didn't have his paperwork straight when two-dozen federal agents came calling.

Facing criminal charges that might have put him in prison for years, Mr. Vieillard pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor count of violating the Lacey Act, and was handed a $17,500 fine and three years probation.

Given the risks, why don't musicians just settle for the safety of carbon fiber? Some do—when concert pianist Jeffrey Sharkey moved to England two decades ago, he had Steinway replace the ivories on his piano with plastic.

Still, musicians cling to the old materials. Last year, Dick Boak, director of artist relations for C.F. Martin & Co., complained to Mother Nature News about the difficulty of getting elite guitarists to switch to instruments made from sustainable materials. "Surprisingly, musicians, who represent some of the most savvy, ecologically minded people around, are resistant to anything about changing the tone of their guitars," he said.

You could mark that up to hypocrisy—artsy do-gooders only too eager to tell others what kind of light bulbs they have to buy won't make sacrifices when it comes to their own passions. Then again, maybe it isn't hypocrisy to recognize that art makes claims significant enough to compete with environmentalists' agendas.

hypocisy of guitar players..lol

great article

[ChumpDumper]

Kind of short on facts, but enough to make the rss feed.

[Borat Sagyidev]

You honestly don't need that kind of material to make a good guitar. They might as well sell ivory

[CosmicCowboy]

On the surface it certainly seems like another obscene example of Federal government over reach and abuse of power.

[DarrinS]

Plants are not "sustainable". Seriously? GMAFB

[ChumpDumper]

On the surface it certainly seems like another obscene example of Federal government over reach and abuse of power.I'm sure most will be content with the surface.

[boutons_deux]

yep, plants, like fish and petroleium or anything, can be exploited/harvested to extinction. Try to keep up, Darrin, the handbasket to hell is picking up speed.

[Wild Cobra]

yep, plants, like fish and petroleium or anything, can be exploited/harvested to extinction. Try to keep up, Darrin, the handbasket to hell is picking up speed.
Problem is, when it's illegal, thieves will take it without care to sell. When it's legal, you have stewardship, to maintain a constant supply of the resource.

[CosmicCowboy]

"United States of America v. Ebony Wood in Various Forms."

:lmao

:(

:vomit:

[Winehole23]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443792604577573010767171448.html

[scott]

On the surface it certainly seems like another obscene example of Federal government over reach and abuse of power.

Does it?

What it they were making Guitar Picks out of Bald Eagle bones? Still an over reach?

[Drachen]

Does it?

What it they were making Guitar Picks out of Bald Eagle bones? Still an over reach?

What?

That's it, I need 49 cases.
http://www.csmonitor.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/media/content/2012/0423-us-abizbust/12346474-1-eng-US/0423-us-abizbust_full_600.jpg

No, don't worry, I'll bring you the raw materials

http://whowouldwinafight.com/wp-includes/images/contestants/ted-nugent.png

[Winehole23]

As ReasonTV's Anthony Fisher reported at the time (http://reason.com/blog/2012/02/23/the-great-gibson-guitar-raid-months-late):

The feds raided Gibson for using an inappropriate tariff code on wood from India, which is a violation of the anti-trafficking statute known as The Lacey Act. At issue is not whether the wood in question was endangered, but whether the wood was the correct level of thickness and finish before being exported from India. "India is wanting to ensure that raw wood is not exported without some labor content from India," says [Gibson CEO Henry] Juskiewicz.


Andrea Johnson of the Environmental Investigation Agency (EIA) (http://www.eia-global.org/) counters that "it's not up to Gibson to decide which laws...they want to respect." She points out that Gibson had previously been raided under The Lacey Act for imports from Madagascar.
Now Gibson has settled with the government. From a Christian Science Monitor account (http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/2012/0807/Gibson-Guitar-Corporation-admits-to-importing-endangered-wood):

Nashville (http://www.csmonitor.com/tags/topic/Nashville)-based Gibson agreed to pay a $300,000 penalty, forfeit claims to about $262,000 worth of wood seized by federal agents and contribute $50,000 to the National Fish and Wildlife Foundation (http://www.csmonitor.com/tags/topic/National+Fish+and+Wildlife+Foundation) to promote the conservation of protected tree species.


"The agreement is fair and just in that it assesses serious penalties for Gibson's behavior while allowing Gibson to continue to focus on the business of making guitars,"U.S. (http://www.csmonitor.com/tags/topic/United+States) Attorney Jerry Martin (http://www.csmonitor.com/tags/topic/Jerry+Martin) said in a statement.


"We felt compelled to settle as the costs of proving our case at trial would have cost millions of dollars and taken a very long time to resolve," CEO Henry Juszkiewicz said in a statement late Monday night.
"This allows us to get back to the business of making guitars," he said, noting that the settlement would allow them to continue sourcing rosewood and ebony from India (http://www.csmonitor.com/tags/topic/India) as it has for decades.
http://reason.com/blog/2012/08/07/gibson-guitar-settles-federal-case-that

[CosmicCowboy]

"We felt compelled to settle as the costs of proving our case at trial would have cost millions of dollars and taken a very long time to resolve," CEO Henry Juszkiewicz said in a statement late Monday night.
"This allows us to get back to the business of making guitars," he said, noting that the settlement would allow them to continue sourcing rosewood and ebony from India as it has for decades.

[Winehole23]

thanks for reading the whole post. :tu

[CosmicCowboy]

As someone who has settled bullshit lawsuits because it was cheaper and easier than going to court (even though I was right) I can appreciate Gibsons position.

[ChumpDumper]

As someone who has settled bullshit lawsuits because it was cheaper and easier than going to court (even though I was right) I can appreciate Gibsons position.What part of this lawsuit do you think was bullshit?

[CosmicCowboy]

What part of this lawsuit do you think was bullshit?

:rolleyes

[Wild Cobra]

Don't mind Chump, he hasn't razzed his quota of people yet today.

[ChumpDumper]

Hey, if you can't articulate your thoughts or just made a knee-jerk reaction you wish you could take back -- that's allowed.

Don't get all butthurt about it.

[CosmicCowboy]

They paid the fine and went right back to buying the same wood from the same places they have always bought from. Nothing was endangered. It was a bureaucratic miscoding.

GFY

[ChumpDumper]

They paid the fine and went right back to buying the same wood from the same places they have always bought from. Nothing was endangered. It was a bureaucratic miscoding.

GFYWhether it was endangered was never the issue. And you just made up the "miscoding."

Your bias made you a liar.

[CosmicCowboy]

whether it was endangered was never the issue. And you just made up the "miscoding."

your bias made you a liar.


the feds raided gibson for using an inappropriate tariff code

gfy

[ChumpDumper]

Right, your characterization was made up bullshit. Thanks for posting the real passage to expose your lie.

[CosmicCowboy]

Right, your characterization was made up bullshit. Thanks for posting the real passage to expose your lie.

using wrong code = miscode

gfy

[Wild Cobra]

Wow...

Chump used to be better at this.

Chumpy...

You're losing it!

[ChumpDumper]

using wrong code = miscode

gfyskipping over your other words you know fuck you = priceless

[ChumpDumper]

Wow...

Chump used to be better at this.

Chumpy...

You're losing it!Wow...

You were never good at this.

WC...

You never had it!

[CosmicCowboy]

skipping over your other words you know fuck you = priceless

That doesn't even make sense.

[ChumpDumper]

That doesn't even make sense.It's ok. Just be full of shit and whine when you are called on it. It's always going to be that way.

[TeyshaBlue]

It is illegal to trade in any of the fauna or flora protected by CITES. Those fauna and flora are widely published and conditions on their use are published. Those restrictions and conditions have been in place for decades. It is the responsibility of the manufacturer to check the legality, and origin of materials it uses. The agreements are in place to protect both national environmental resources and Industry. The US was and is a prime mover in the establishment of the agreement. Gibson's claimed coding error/ignorance is no defense. This aint rocket science. Any luthier worth his shit knows this stuff and has for about the last 20 years. Gibson wanted cheaper wood. They got it. They also got their ass busted for it.

[xrayzebra]

Hey, if you can't articulate your thoughts or just made a knee-jerk reaction you wish you could take back -- that's allowed.

Don't get all butthurt about it.

Chump said what........................................:lol :rollin

[ChumpDumper]

I said what you quoted. What part do you not understand?

[xrayzebra]

I said what you quoted. What part do you not understand?

What part of the laughing heads don't you understand........:lol

[Yonivore]

It is illegal to trade in any of the fauna or flora protected by CITES. Those fauna and flora are widely published and conditions on their use are published. Those restrictions and conditions have been in place for decades. It is the responsibility of the manufacturer to check the legality, and origin of materials it uses. The agreements are in place to protect both national environmental resources and Industry. The US was and is a prime mover in the establishment of the agreement. Gibson's claimed coding error/ignorance is no defense. This aint rocket science. Any luthier worth his shit knows this stuff and has for about the last 20 years. Gibson wanted cheaper wood. They got it. They also got their ass busted for it.
Sounds like that "everyone's a felon" mentality, to me.

Three Felonies A Day (http://threefelonies.com/Youtoo/tabid/86/Default.aspx)
How the Feds Target the Innocent

I think ignorance of the law is -- and has been, for quite some time now -- a pretty damn good excuse.

[TeyshaBlue]

Except Gibson has known about the law for decades until they suddenly didn't.

[ChumpDumper]

What part of the laughing heads don't you understand........:lolI understand what they mean. If you can't explain why they are there, that's fine.

[ChumpDumper]

I think ignorance of the law is -- and has been, for quite some time now -- a pretty damn good excuse.:lmao

[Yonivore]

Except Gibson has known about the law for decades until they suddenly didn't.
I'm not that familiar with the case, what's their excuse? That they mis-coded something and ended up with illegal wood, unintentionally?

[TeyshaBlue]

No, they sourced wood illegally then claimed the source miscoded it. The sources never code, period.

[Yonivore]

The Rule Of Law Is Vacated (http://rense.com/general94/TheRule.htm)


What law did Gibson Guitar Corp break that caused federal agents to disrupt Gibson's plants in Nashville and Memphis, seize guitars, cause layoffs, and cost the company $3 million from disrupted operations?

No US law was broken. The feds claim that Gibson broke a law that is on the books in India.

India has not complained about Gibson or asked for the aid of the US government in enforcing its laws against Gibson. Instead, the feds have taken it upon themselves to both interpret and to enforce on US citizens the laws of India. The feds claim that Gibson's use of wood from India in its guitars is illegal, because the wood was not finished by Indian workers.

This must not be India's interpretation of the law as India allowed the unfinished wood to be exported. Perhaps the feds are trying to force more layoffs of US workers and their replacement by H-1B foreign workers. Gibson can solve its problem by firing its Tennessee work force and hiring Indian citizens on H-1B work visas.

[Yonivore]

No, they sourced wood illegally then claimed the source miscoded it. The sources never code, period.
If the description I posted is an accurate characterization of what happened, it is right out of the article I posted. In fact, it was the first example.

So, if India had done something to the wood that would have allowed it to be classified as finished; there wouldn't have been a problem?

Ridiculous.

[TeyshaBlue]

No it's a set of laws that the US is signatory to. Google CITES.

The author of that post is completely ignorant of what's going on and his claimed violations are inaccurate as well. But, it's pretty good for an unfounded rant.

[TeyshaBlue]

BTW...this aint Gibson's first dance. Apparently, the Feds are fucking tired of it.

[Yonivore]

No it's a set of laws that the US is signatory to. Google CITES.
What specific section of the law did Gibson violate? CITES is a big website, I'm not about to try and navigate through to figure out what Gibson is supposed to have done wrong.


The author of that post is completely ignorant of what's going on and his claimed violations are inaccurate as well. But, it's pretty good for an unfounded rant.
Gibson wasn't charged with violating an Indian law related to importing unfinished wood?

So, just what went on? If I Google the story now, all I get is that Gibson capitulated. None of the stories explain -- beyond importing illegal wood -- exactly what Gibson has done.

What made the wood illegal?

[Yonivore]

BTW...this aint Gibson's first dance. Apparently, the Feds are fucking tired of it.
So, if I have this right, the federal government, pursuant to the Lacey Act (sound familiar) filed criminal charges against Gibson over ebony wood imported from Madagascar and India. Neither country -- in the stories I read -- claim the exportation by them, or the importation by Gibson, violated their country's laws.

Therefore, under authority granted by the Lacey Act, the U. S. Government determined the ebony wood was illegally imported by Gibson.

I'm still not seeing how this is different than the Lacey Act case described at my link.

I realize Gibson capitulated but, that could just be because they were outlasted by the government and were bleeding money litigating. Last I heard, Gibson maintained they had violated no laws in importing the wood.

[TeyshaBlue]

Neither country has the ability to lodge a complaint styled like that, so that's basically moot.

Gibson was feeling squeezed sourcing wood the way it normally has. They have to maintain a tremendous amount of stock of timber of which you can't use for several years after it's felled. The alternative sourcing was a poorly conceived, sloppy method for obtaining more stock. Again, they've been spanked for this before, but have been let off lightly. Not this time.

[MannyIsGod]

I think ignorance of the law is -- and has been, for quite some time now -- a pretty damn good excuse.

:lmao !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Wild Cobra]

The Rule Of Law Is Vacated (http://rense.com/general94/TheRule.htm)
What law did Gibson Guitar Corp break that caused federal agents to disrupt Gibson's plants in Nashville and Memphis, seize guitars, cause layoffs, and cost the company $3 million from disrupted operations?

No US law was broken. The feds claim that Gibson broke a law that is on the books in India.

India has not complained about Gibson or asked for the aid of the US government in enforcing its laws against Gibson. Instead, the feds have taken it upon themselves to both interpret and to enforce on US citizens the laws of India. The feds claim that Gibson's use of wood from India in its guitars is illegal, because the wood was not finished by Indian workers.

This must not be India's interpretation of the law as India allowed the unfinished wood to be exported. Perhaps the feds are trying to force more layoffs of US workers and their replacement by H-1B foreign workers. Gibson can solve its problem by firing its Tennessee work force and hiring Indian citizens on H-1B work visas.
Now this all makes sense.

Since Obama wants to destroy this nation, he wants to make sure Indian workers finish the wood. Not USA workers.

[Yonivore]

Neither country has the ability to lodge a complaint styled like that, so that's basically moot.
Yet, neither country is complaining about the wood, either.


Gibson was feeling squeezed sourcing wood the way it normally has. They have to maintain a tremendous amount of stock of timber of which you can't use for several years after it's felled. The alternative sourcing was a poorly conceived, sloppy method for obtaining more stock. Again, they've been spanked for this before, but have been let off lightly. Not this time.
Sounds like the federal government selectively enforces the law...that it also interprets to suit its political agenda.

Sorry, I have absolutely no confidence this administration was behaving in good faith when it raided Gibson.

[Yonivore]

:lmao !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I was tongue-in-cheek referring to the proliferation of federal criminal statutes of which most citizens could not be expected to know and abide by.

But, glad to amuse.

[Wild Cobra]

I was tongue-in-cheek referring to the proliferation of federal criminal statutes of which most citizens could not be expected to know and abide by.

But, glad to amuse.
Manny is so easily amused.

I have come to learn that he just laughs when he has no intelligent response.

He still refuses to answer my questions any more, probably because he knows I was right when he implies I'm wrong.

[TeyshaBlue]

Yet, neither country is complaining about the wood, either.


Sounds like the federal government selectively enforces the law...that it also interprets to suit its political agenda.

Sorry, I have absolutely no confidence this administration was behaving in good faith when it raided Gibson.

Again, neither country has a mechanism to lodge a complaint. That's not how CITES works.

Previous administrations spanked Gibson for this. Gibson did not stop the practice. Gibson subsequently gets spanked harder. It's not an adminstrative objective. It's a progression of spanking that Gibson had complete control of but decided to continue anyway.

[Wild Cobra]

Again, neither country has a mechanism to lodge a complaint. That's not how CITES works.

Previous administrations spanked Gibson for this. Gibson did not stop the practice. Gibson subsequently gets spanked harder. It's not an adminstrative objective. It's a progression of spanking that Gibson had complete control of but decided to continue anyway.
Was it worth the laid off workers?

[MannyIsGod]

Also, Justice Dept != Fish and Wildlife.

[TeyshaBlue]

Was it worth the laid off workers?

Non Sequitur.

But if you must know...ask Gibson.

[Yonivore]

Again, neither country has a mechanism to lodge a complaint. That's not how CITES works.
I get that but, it would seem to me one of the two countries from which the wood came would have some dog in the hunt. My point being, if Madagascar and India don't give a fuck, why does Uncle Sam?


Previous administrations spanked Gibson for this. Gibson did not stop the practice. Gibson subsequently gets spanked harder. It's not an adminstrative objective. It's a progression of spanking that Gibson had complete control of but decided to continue anyway.
Perhaps it's an odious and complicated rule by which to abide.

I still don't understand why - other than the potential introduction of foreign contaminants - the U. S. Government would care if Gibson buys wood from Madagascar or India, if Madagascar and India don't care.

Sound's to me like the Lacey Act is just some mechanism, dreamed up by feds -- with input from environmental whack nuts -- to go after Americans engaged in legitimate commerce with foreign companies.

I think we've exhausted the topic but, you're welcome to continue. I'll read up on the case more and, perhaps, I'll change my mind.

[Yonivore]

Also, Justice Dept != Fish and Wildlife.
Justice Department AND Fish and Wildlife = Federal Government. If you're going to tell me an attorney from the Fish and Wildlife Department and not a Justice Department Attorney would be prosecuting this case, then I'm just going to respond that we have too many agencies.

[TeyshaBlue]

Look, I'm a musician. I'm predisposed to defend Gibson. I just can't. They were not engaged in legitimate commerce, unless legitimate commerce entails finding a source for the timbers sizable enough to fill a shipping crate. Find a ship to move it without documentation and have the contents mislabeled and not refer to Gibson.

[MannyIsGod]

Look, I'm a musician. I'm predisposed to defend Gibson. I just can't. They were not engaged in legitimate commerce, unless legitimate commerce entails finding a source for the timbers sizable enough to fill a shipping crate. Find a ship to move it without documentation and have the contents mislabeled and not refer to Gibson.

I prefer Martin myself but I've played some Gibsons that almost made me spend WAY too much money.

[TeyshaBlue]

Hell, I'm a keyboard player primarily. Burn 'em all.:lol

[LnGrrrR]

Now this all makes sense.

Since Obama wants to destroy this nation, he wants to make sure Indian workers finish the wood. Not USA workers.

Don't ever change WC.

[LnGrrrR]

I get that but, it would seem to me one of the two countries from which the wood came would have some dog in the hunt. My point being, if Madagascar and India don't give a fuck, why does Uncle Sam?

A lot of Americans used to go overseas for child prostitution, but they made a rule in the US outlawing that.

If these overseas locations don't care though, why should Uncle Sam?

[Yonivore]

A lot of Americans used to go overseas for child prostitution, but they made a rule in the US outlawing that.
Really, I wasn't aware? Citation?

I read a story that didn't cite the specific law but basically said what you claimed. I was heartened to see that an organization, to which I contribute, was heavily involved in identifying and securing the arrest of offenders


If these overseas locations don't care though, why should Uncle Sam?
Humans != trees?

In the story I read, the foreign country -- in this case Colombia -- was integral to prosecution. I'm not sure the U.S. would have much authority to prosecute someone that exploited children in a country that "didn't care."

But, it wouldn't bother me if they tried.

[ChumpDumper]

lol yoni asking for a citation

[ElNono]

Really, I wasn't aware? Citation?

18 USC 2241 (c) (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2241)

[Yonivore]

18 USC 2241 (c) (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2241)
Thanks. I have no problem with it where sexual exploitation of children are concerned. I think the government should have the authority to drag them out back and shoot them.

[Yonivore]

18 USC 2241 (c) (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2241)


(c) With Children.— Whoever crosses a State line with intent to engage in a sexual act with a person who has not attained the age of 12 years, or in the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States or in a Federal prison, or in any prison, institution, or facility in which persons are held in custody by direction of or pursuant to a contract or agreement with the head of any Federal department or agency, knowingly engages in a sexual act with another person who has not attained the age of 12 years, or knowingly engages in a sexual act under the circumstances described in subsections (a) and (b) with another person who has attained the age of 12 years but has not attained the age of 16 years (and is at least 4 years younger than the person so engaging), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title and imprisoned for not less than 30 years or for life. If the defendant has previously been convicted of another Federal offense under this subsection, or of a State offense that would have been an offense under either such provision had the offense occurred in a Federal prison, unless the death penalty is imposed, the defendant shall be sentenced to life in prison.
I don't see any authority to arrest or charge for acts committed in another country unless they're construing "...crosses a State line..." as giving them such authority but, generally, that is just used to distinguished State criminal acts form federal criminal acts.

[Yonivore]

Back to Gibson...

The Christian Science Monitor (http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/2012/0807/Gibson-Guitar-Corporation-admits-to-importing-endangered-wood) reported:


“We felt compelled to settle as the costs of proving our case at trial would have cost millions of dollars and taken a very long time to resolve,” CEO Henry Juszkiewicz said in a statement late Monday night.

“This allows us to get back to the business of making guitars,” he said, noting that the settlement would allow them to continue sourcing rosewood and ebony from India as it has for decades.

As Reason reported at the time (http://reason.com/blog/2012/02/23/the-great-gibson-guitar-raid-months-late):


The feds raided Gibson for using an inappropriate tariff code on wood from India, which is a violation of the anti-trafficking statute known as The Lacey Act. At issue is not whether the wood in question was endangered, but whether the wood was the correct level of thickness and finish before being exported from India. “India is wanting to ensure that raw wood is not exported without some labor content from India,” says [Gibson CEO Henry] Juskiewicz.
So, its not even an environmental or endangered species issue?

Again, if India doesn't care, why do we?

[Blake]

I think ignorance of the law is -- and has been, for quite some time now -- a pretty damn good excuse.

So is it or is it not a good excuse?

Even with your tongue in your cheek, it looks like you are talking or of both sides of your mouth.