AP: Kerry Says He Wouldn't Have Ousted Saddam

[Tommy Duncan]

Too little, too late. If he had made this his position, stuck to it, and made it the centerpiece of his convention speech then perhaps things would be different.

story.news.yahoo.com/news...cs_of_iraq (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&e=3&u=/ap/20040920/ap_on_el_pr/politics_of_iraq)

Kerry Says He Wouldn't Have Ousted Saddam

1 minute ago

By RON FOURNIER, AP Political Writer

NEW YORK - Staking out new ground on Iraq (news - web sites), Sen. John Kerry (news - web sites) said Monday he would not have overthrown Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) had he been in the White House, and he accused President Bush (news - web sites) of "stubborn incompetence," dishonesty and colossal failures of judgment. Bush said Kerry was flip-flopping.


Less than two years after voting to give Bush authority to invade Iraq, the Democratic candidate said the president had misused that power by rushing to war without the backing of allies, a post-war plan or proper equipment for U.S. troops. "None of which I would have done," Kerry said.


"Saddam Hussein was a brutal dictator who deserves his own special place in hell," he added. "But that was not, in itself, a reason to go to war. The satisfaction we take in his downfall does not hide this fact: We have traded a dictator for a chaos that has left America less secure."


Bush hit back from a campaign rally in New Hampshire, interpreting Kerry's comment to mean the Democrat believes U.S. security would be better with Saddam still in power. "He's saying he prefers the stability of a dictatorship to the hope and security of democracy," the Republican incumbent said.


"Today, my opponent continued his pattern of twisting in the wind," Bush said. "He apparently woke up this morning and has now decided, No, we should not have invaded Iraq, after just last month saying he would have voted for force even knowing everything we know today."


Both candidates addressed partisan crowds, drawing cheers and hoots as they stretched each other's records and rhetoric — mixing facts with political creativity toward the same goal: raising doubts about the other man's credibility.


Kerry called on Bush to do a much better job rallying allies, training Iraqi security forces, hastening reconstruction plans and ensuring that elections are conducted on time. But his speech was thin on details, with Kerry saying Bush's miscalculations had made solutions harder to come by.


Bush cited Kerry's four-point plan and dismissed it as proposing "exactly what we're currently doing."


With more than 1,000 U.S. troops killed in Iraq, including nearly 900 since Bush declared an end to major combat, with free elections in doubt, reconstruction efforts stalled and violence and kidnappings on the rise, Iraq could be Bush's biggest political liability. Even some Republican senators have begun to publicly second-guess the president's policies.


But Kerry has failed to capitalize thus far, struggling for months to find a clear, consistent way to differentiate his views from those of his Democratic rivals during the primary season and, since the spring, his general election foe in the White House.


Kerry's advisers say they're not sure whether it is too late for the Democrat to make the Iraq critique resonate. Polls show voters favor Bush over Kerry on Iraq and terrorism. The president shines the spotlight on his foreign policy agenda with a visit Tuesday to the United Nations (news - web sites).


Kerry said in August that he would have voted in 2002 to give Bush war-making ability, even had he known no weapons of mass destruction would be found. He stood by the vote again Monday, saying the president needed to use the threat of force to "act effectively" against Saddam.


He made a distinction between that vote to grant a president war-making authority and what he himself would have done as commander in chief with such power.


"Yet today, President Bush tells us that he would do everything all over again, the same way. How can he possibly be serious?" Bush's presidential rival said at New York University.


"Is he really saying to Americans that if we had known there were no imminent threat, no weapons of mass destruction, no ties to al-Qaida, the United States should have invaded Iraq? My answer is resoundingly no because a commander in chief's first responsibility is to make a wise and responsible decision to keep America safe."


Kerry called national security "a central issue in this campaign," a bow to the fact that the race is being waged on Bush's terrain.


"Invading Iraq was a crisis of historic proportions and, if we do not change course, there is the prospect of a war with no end in sight," he said.





Kerry used the word "truth" a dozen times to say Bush had dodged it. That doesn't count the number of times he said the president "failed to level" with Americans or misled and confused them. He blamed Bush for "colossal failures of judgment."

"This is stubborn incompetence," he said.

Kerry has sounded more hawkish, as in December when Democratic primary rival Howard Dean (news - web sites) said the world was not safer with Saddam out of power. Anybody who believes that, Kerry said, doesn't "have the judgment to be president."

Reading that quote to his GOP crowd on Monday, Bush cracked: "I could not have said it better."

The running mates got into the act, too. "Iraq's a mess," said Democratic Sen. John Edwards (news - web sites), while Vice President Dick Cheney (news - web sites) said Kerry offers only "confusion, weakness, uncertainty and indecision."

[Hook Dem]

That was after he said he would.:lol

[Joe Chalupa]

Damn it Hook Dem!! :lol

[SpursWoman]

You just can't make that shit up, no matter how much Dan will try to spin it.

[Yonivore]

My bad, ignore my thread...even though, I'd sure like to see this one explained.

[DeSPURado]

All I can say is finally. :smokin

[Yonivore]

So, what's the answer to this hour's flip-flop, DeSPURate? Surely you've consulted with the Kerry camp on this.

[DeSPURado]

This was his original position it got him the lead in the polls. I'd say he's back on message. And yall are screwed.

[Yonivore]

Yeah, right.

So, he just says whatever he thinks will get him votes?

Wow, that's conviction. You don't think the public isn't going to see through that?

[SpursWoman]

Finally?


How much do you think his revolving stance on this is even going to be taken seriously anymore?

[LandSharkII]

This was his original position it got him the lead in the polls. I'd say he's back on message. And yall are screwed.
Right, the American people will just forget all the flip-flops. Keep dreaming.

[Yonivore]

By the way, I hear Kerry made a speech today. Unfortunately for him, Rathergate drowned him out...

That's gotta suck.

Get on message, again...and have it gobbled up by a scandal that could involve your campaign.

[DeSPURado]

He was off message thats it. This debate is going to last about a day or two, it will be gone, and Iraq will still be a mess.

Over 1000 US soldiers dead.

The UN opposing our decision to go there.

Attacks on Americans there escalating there every day.

Sovereignty is proving to be nothing more than a word to Bush, that he doesn't understand.

-----

I say finally because its about time he goes back to what got him where he was.

[Yonivore]

Saying that he would have gone into Iraq even now that he knows there were no WMD's is off message?

Wow, what happened? Did he have a minor stroke or something.

[SpursWoman]

He was off message thats it.


You have GOT to be fucking kidding me. :shootme

[LandSharkII]

The UN opposing our decision to go there.
I can tell you with full certainty that most Americans do not give a rat's ass what the UN thinks. The LandShark has spoken.

[DeSPURado]

I'm not kidding. It was his original message. His Flip flop was to go off of it. He's now back to his original position about the war.

[Yonivore]

"Over 1000 US soldiers dead."
10% of what the pundits and hand-wringing Demoncrats were predicting would be incurred in the first week of battle. Remember?

We kill more people in car wrecks in one week here at home. It doesn't diminish their sacrifice but, really, arguing numbers is stupid. Either the war is justified and any death is sad but an inevitable fact or the war isn't justified and 1 death is an outrage. Pick your side because Kerry is having trouble picking his.

"The UN opposing our decision to go there."
France, German, and Kofi opposed.

So, when's the last time the U.N. solved an international conflict or even stopped a genocide within the borders of a single country. Give up? They've never done it.

The only think the U.N. has ever done effectively is pass out bandaids and rice -- and debate one another to no end.

12 years and 17 resolutions on Iraq and they were no better off than when we signed a cease-fire agreement in '91. In fact, there is a growing body of evidence that France, Germany, and yes, Kofi's office at the U.N. may have been involved in the largest financial scandal of all time in the oil-for-food program -- kind of makes you wonder how altruistic their opposition was, doesn't it? I know it makes me wonder.

"Attacks on Americans there escalating there every day."
The area is shrinking, the violence is escalating, but, the Iraqis themselves are increasingly becoming targets of the terrorists and, frankly, they seem pretty sick of it too. I would expect a major offensive into Fallujah and other hot spots pretty soon.

The Iraqi government seem set on January elections, and there's no sign they'll be deterred.

You can continue to wring your hands over numbers, but the fact remains, increased contact will result in increased casaulties...it's an unfortunate fact of war.

"Sovereignty is proving to be nothing more than a word to Bush, that he doesn't understand."
That makes no sense. Care to elaborate?

[Yonivore]

"I'm not kidding. It was his original message. His Flip flop was to go off of it. He's now back to his original position about the war."
We know you're not kidding. But, do you realize how vaccuous that makes Kerry look as a man of conviction?

Face it, it's another desperation move.

And, whatever happened to McAulliffe's threat to stay on the Air National Guard stuff until election day?

The Demoncrats are fucked up, face it.

[DeSPURado]

Bush Sovereignty Video. (http://www4.neilrogers.com/features/2004081201.html)

And Yonivore You can debate all you want about the technicalities of what I just said. You didn't once however contradict me. You trying to downplay it. It won't work.

[Yonivore]

You're right. There have been 1,000 deaths.

You're wrong. The U.N. didn't oppose our action. There is no resolution, passed by the U.N. that condemns or opposes our action -- either in the General Assembly (which we couldn't veto) or in the Security Council, (which -- obviously we would veto).

France, Germany, and Kofi Annan opposed the action. But, know what we know now about the scope of the oil-for-food scandal, I've got to wonder where their opposition was coming from. Shouldn't we all?

You're right. Attacks on coalition troops are escalating. They're also escalating on Iraqi civilians, Iraqi Guardsmen, and Iraqi Police...guess what, attacks on the terrorists have escalated ten-fold. It's a war...and we're winning.

And, I'm betting the sovereignty thing is a gaffe video of some sort. Why don't you just explain what you're talking about. I'm not interested in watching a video.

[Bandit2981]

I still like the Hulk Hogan vs. Sadaam steel cage match idea :spin

[DeSPURado]

You think it matter to the voters that Bush Flip Flopped on all of the following issues?



President Bush: Flip-Flopper-In-Chief

September 2, 2004, Updated
Download Poster

From the beginning, George W. Bush has made his own credibility a central issue. On 10/11/00, then-Gov. Bush said: "I think credibility is important.It is going to be important for the president to be credible with Congress, important for the president to be credible with foreign nations." But President Bush's serial flip-flopping raises serious questions about whether Congress and foreign leaders can rely on what he says.

1. Social Security Surplus

BUSH PLEDGES NOT TO TOUCH SOCIAL SECURITY SURPLUS... "We're going to keep the promise of Social Security and keep the government from raiding the Social Security surplus." [President Bush, 3/3/01]

...BUSH SPENDS SOCIAL SECURITY SURPLUS The New York Times reported that "the president's new budget uses Social Security surpluses to pay for other programs every year through 2013, ultimately diverting more than $1.4 trillion in Social Security funds to other purposes." [The New York Times, 2/6/02]

2. Patient's Right to Sue

GOVERNOR BUSH VETOES PATIENTS' RIGHT TO SUE... "Despite his campaign rhetoric in favor of a patients' bill of rights, Bush fought such a bill tooth and nail as Texas governor, vetoing a bill coauthored by Republican state Rep. John Smithee in 1995. He... constantly opposed a patient's right to sue an HMO over coverage denied that resulted in adverse health effects." [Salon, 2/7/01]

...CANDIDATE BUSH PRAISES TEXAS PATIENTS' RIGHT TO SUE... "We're one of the first states that said you can sue an HMO for denying you proper coverage... It's time for our nation to come together and do what's right for the people. And I think this is right for the people. You know, I support a national patients' bill of rights, Mr. Vice President. And I want all people covered. I don't want the law to supersede good law like we've got in Texas." [Governor Bush, 10/17/00]

...PRESIDENT BUSH'S ADMINISTRATION ARGUES AGAINST RIGHT TO SUE "To let two Texas consumers, Juan Davila and Ruby R. Calad, sue their managed-care companies for wrongful denials of medical benefits ‘would be to completely undermine' federal law regulating employee benefits, Assistant Solicitor General James A. Feldman said at oral argument March 23. Moreover, the administration's brief attacked the policy rationale for Texas's law, which is similar to statutes on the books in nine other states." [Washington Post, 4/5/04]

3. Tobacco Buyout

BUSH SUPPORTS CURRENT TOBACCO FARMERS' QUOTA SYSTEM... "They've got the quota system in place -- the allotment system -- and I don't think that needs to be changed." [President Bush, 5/04]

...BUSH ADMINISTRATION WILL SUPPORT FEDERAL BUYOUT OF TOBACCO QUOTAS "The administration is open to a buyout." [White House spokeswoman Jeanie Mamo, 6/18/04]

4. North Korea

BUSH WILL NOT OFFER NUCLEAR NORTH KOREA INCENTIVES TO DISARM... "We developed a bold approach under which, if the North addressed our long-standing concerns, the United States was prepared to take important steps that would have significantly improved the lives of the North Korean people. Now that North Korea's covert nuclear weapons program has come to light, we are unable to pursue this approach." [President's Statement, 11/15/02]

...BUSH ADMINISTRATION OFFERS NORTH KOREA INCENTIVES TO DISARM"Well, we will work to take steps to ease their political and economic isolation. So there would be -- what you would see would be some provisional or temporary proposals that would only lead to lasting benefit after North Korea dismantles its nuclear programs. So there would be some provisional or temporary efforts of that nature." [White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan, 6/23/04]

5. Abortion

BUSH SUPPORTS A WOMAN'S RIGHT TO CHOOSE... "Bush said he...favors leaving up to a woman and her doctor the abortion question." [The Nation, 6/15/00, quoting the Lubbock Avalanche-Journal, 5/78]

...BUSH OPPOSES A WOMAN'S RIGHT TO CHOOSE "I am pro-life." [Governor Bush, 10/3/00]

6. OPEC

BUSH PROMISES TO FORCE OPEC TO LOWER PRICES... "What I think the president ought to do [when gas prices spike] is he ought to get on the phone with the OPEC cartel and say we expect you to open your spigots...And the president of the United States must jawbone OPEC members to lower the price." [President Bush, 1/26/00]

...BUSH REFUSES TO LOBBY OPEC LEADERS With gas prices soaring in the United States at the beginning of 2004, the Miami Herald reported the president refused to "personally lobby oil cartel leaders to change their minds." [Miami Herald, 4/1/04]

7. Iraq Funding

BUSH SPOKESMAN DENIES NEED FOR ADDITIONAL FUNDS FOR THE REST OF 2004... "We do not anticipate requesting supplemental funding for '04" [White House Budget Director Joshua Bolton, 2/2/04]

...BUSH REQUESTS ADDITIONAL FUNDS FOR IRAQ FOR 2004 "I am requesting that Congress establish a $25 billion contingency reserve fund for the coming fiscal year to meet all commitments to our troops." [President Bush, Statement by President, 5/5/04]

8. Condoleeza Rice Testimony

BUSH SPOKESMAN SAYS RICE WON'T TESTIFY AS 'A MATTER OF PRINCIPLE'... "Again, this is not her personal preference; this goes back to a matter of principle. There is a separation of powers issue involved here. Historically, White House staffers do not testify before legislative bodies. So it's a matter of principle, not a matter of preference." [White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan, 3/9/04]

...BUSH ORDERS RICE TO TESTIFY: "Today I have informed the Commission on Terrorist Attacks Against the United States that my National Security Advisor, Dr. Condoleezza Rice, will provide public testimony." [President Bush, 3/30/04]

9. Science

BUSH PLEDGES TO ISSUE REGULATIONS BASED ON SCIENCE..."I think we ought to have high standards set by agencies that rely upon science, not by what may feel good or what sounds good." [then-Governor George W. Bush, 1/15/00]

...BUSH ADMINISTRATION REGULATIONS IGNORE SCIENCE "60 leading scientists—including Nobel laureates, leading medical experts, former federal agency directors and university chairs and presidents—issued a statement calling for regulatory and legislative action to restore scientific integrity to federal policymaking. According to the scientists, the Bush administration has, among other abuses, suppressed and distorted scientific analysis from federal agencies, and taken actions that have undermined the quality of scientific advisory panels." [Union of Concerned Scientists, 2/18/04]

10. Ahmed Chalabi

BUSH INVITES CHALABI TO STATE OF THE UNION ADDRESS...President Bush also met with Chalabi during his brief trip to Iraq last Thanksgiving [White House Documents 1/20/04, 11/27/03]

...BUSH MILITARY ASSISTS IN RAID OF CHALABI'S HOUSE "U.S. soldiers raided the home of America's one-time ally Ahmad Chalabi on Thursday and seized documents and computers." [Washington Post, 5/20/04]

11. Department of Homeland Security

BUSH OPPOSES THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY..."So, creating a Cabinet office doesn't solve the problem. You still will have agencies within the federal government that have to be coordinated. So the answer is that creating a Cabinet post doesn't solve anything." [White House spokesman Ari Fleischer, 3/19/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY "So tonight, I ask the Congress to join me in creating a single, permanent department with an overriding and urgent mission: securing the homeland of America and protecting the American people." [President Bush, Address to the Nation, 6/6/02]

12. Weapons of Mass Destruction

BUSH SAYS WE FOUND THE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION..."We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories...for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them." [President Bush, Interview in Poland, 5/29/03]

...BUSH SAYS WE HAVEN'T FOUND WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION "David Kay has found the capacity to produce weapons.And when David Kay goes in and says we haven't found stockpiles yet, and there's theories as to where the weapons went. They could have been destroyed during the war. Saddam and his henchmen could have destroyed them as we entered into Iraq. They could be hidden. They could have been transported to another country, and we'll find out." [President Bush, Meet the Press, 2/7/04]

13. Free Trade

BUSH SUPPORTS FREE TRADE... "I believe strongly that if we promote trade, and when we promote trade, it will help workers on both sides of this issue." [President Bush in Peru, 3/23/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS RESTRICTIONS ON TRADE "In a decision largely driven by his political advisers, President Bush set aside his free-trade principles last year and imposed heavy tariffs on imported steel to help out struggling mills in Pennsylvania and West Virginia, two states crucial for his reelection." [Washington Post, 9/19/03]

14. Osama Bin Laden

BUSH WANTS OSAMA DEAD OR ALIVE... "I want justice. And there's an old poster out West, I recall, that says, 'Wanted: Dead or Alive.'" [President Bush, on Osama Bin Laden, 09/17/01]

...BUSH DOESN'T CARE ABOUT OSAMA "I don't know where he is.You know, I just don't spend that much time on him... I truly am not that concerned about him."[President Bush, Press Conference, 3/13/02]

15. The Environment

BUSH SUPPORTS MANDATORY CAPS ON CARBON DIOXIDE... "[If elected], Governor Bush will work to...establish mandatory reduction targets for emissions of four main pollutants: sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxide, mercury and carbon dioxide." [Bush Environmental Plan, 9/29/00]

...BUSH OPPOSES MANDATORY CAPS ON CARBON DIOXIDE "I do not believe, however, that the government should impose on power plants mandatory emissions reductions for carbon dioxide, which is not a 'pollutant' under the Clean Air Act." [President Bush, Letter to Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-NE), 3/13/03]

16. WMD Commission

BUSH RESISTS AN OUTSIDE INVESTIGATION ON WMD INTELLIGENCE FAILURE... "The White House immediately turned aside the calls from Kay and many Democrats for an immediate outside investigation, seeking to head off any new wide-ranging election-year inquiry that might go beyond reports already being assembled by congressional committees and the Central Intelligence Agency." [NY Times, 1/29/04]

...BUSH SUPPORTS AN OUTSIDE INVESTIGATION ON WMD INTELLIGENCE FAILURE "Today, by executive order, I am creating an independent commission, chaired by Governor and former Senator Chuck Robb, Judge Laurence Silberman, to look at American intelligence capabilities, especially our intelligence about weapons of mass destruction." [President Bush, 2/6/04]

17. Creation of the 9/11 Commission

BUSH OPPOSES CREATION OF INDEPENDENT 9/11 COMMISSION... "President Bush took a few minutes during his trip to Europe Thursday to voice his opposition to establishing a special commission to probe how the government dealt with terror warnings before Sept. 11." [CBS News, 5/23/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS CREATION OF INDEPENDENT 9/11 COMMISSION "President Bush said today he now supports establishing an independent commission to investigate the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks." [ABC News, 09/20/02]

18. Time Extension for 9/11 Commission

BUSH OPPOSES TIME EXTENSION FOR 9/11 COMMISSION... "President Bush and House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.) have decided to oppose granting more time to an independent commission investigating the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks." [Washington Post, 1/19/04]

...BUSH SUPPORTS TIME EXTENSION FOR 9/11 COMMISSION "The White House announced Wednesday its support for a request from the commission investigating the September 11, 2001 attacks for more time to complete its work." [CNN, 2/4/04]

19. One Hour Limit for 9/11 Commission Testimony

BUSH LIMITS TESTIMONY IN FRONT OF 9/11 COMMISSION TO ONE HOUR... "President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney have placed strict limits on the private interviews they will grant to the federal commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks, saying that they will meet only with the panel's top two officials and that Mr. Bush will submit to only a single hour of questioning, commission members said Wednesday." [NY Times, 2/26/04]

...BUSH SETS NO TIMELIMIT FOR TESTIMONY "The president's going to answer all of the questions they want to raise. Nobody's watching the clock." [White House spokesman Scott McClellan, 3/10/04]

20. Gay Marriage

BUSH SAYS GAY MARRIAGE IS A STATE ISSUE... "The state can do what they want to do. Don't try to trap me in this state's issue like you're trying to get me into." [Gov. George W. Bush on Gay Marriage, Larry King Live, 2/15/00]

...BUSH SUPPORTS CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT BANNING GAY MARRIAGE "Today I call upon the Congress to promptly pass, and to send to the states for ratification, an amendment to our Constitution defining and protecting marriage as a union of man and woman as husband and wife." [President Bush, 2/24/04]

21. Nation Building

BUSH OPPOSES NATION BUILDING... "If we don't stop extending our troops all around the world in nation-building missions, then we're going to have a serious problem coming down the road." [Gov. George W. Bush, 10/3/00]

...BUSH SUPPORTS NATION BUILDING "We will be changing the regime of Iraq, for the good of the Iraqi people." [President Bush, 3/6/03]

22. Saddam/al Qaeda Link

BUSH SAYS IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEEN AL QAEDA AND SADDAM... "You can't distinguish between al Qaeda and Saddam when you talk about the war on terror." [President Bush, 9/25/02]

...BUSH SAYS SADDAM HAD NO ROLE IN AL QAEDA PLOT "We've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved in Sept. 11." [President Bush, 9/17/03]

23. U.N. Resolution

BUSH VOWS TO HAVE A UN VOTE NO MATTER WHAT... "No matter what the whip count is, we're calling for the vote. We want to see people stand up and say what their opinion is about Saddam Hussein and the utility of the United Nations Security Council. And so, you bet. It's time for people to show their cards, to let the world know where they stand when it comes to Saddam." [President Bush 3/6/03]

...BUSH WITHDRAWS REQUEST FOR VOTE "At a National Security Council meeting convened at the White House at 8:55 a.m., Bush finalized the decision to withdraw the resolution from consideration and prepared to deliver an address to the nation that had already been written." [Washington Post, 3/18/03]

24. Involvement in the Palestinian Conflict

BUSH OPPOSES SUMMITS... "Well, we've tried summits in the past, as you may remember. It wasn't all that long ago where a summit was called and nothing happened, and as a result we had significant intifada in the area." [President Bush, 04/05/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS SUMMITS "If a meeting advances progress toward two states living side by side in peace, I will strongly consider such a meeting. I'm committed to working toward peace in the Middle East." [President Bush, 5/23/03]

25. Campaign Finance

BUSH OPPOSES MCCAIN-FEINGOLD... "George W. Bush opposes McCain-Feingold...as an infringement on free expression." [Washington Post, 3/28/2000]

...BUSH SIGNS MCCAIN-FEINGOLD INTO LAW "[T]his bill improves the current system of financing for Federal campaigns, and therefore I have signed it into law." [President Bush, at the McCain-Feingold signing ceremony, 03/27/02]

26. 527s

Bush opposes restrictions on 527s: "I also have reservations about the constitutionality of the broad ban on issue advertising [in McCain Feingold], which restrains the speech of a wide variety of groups on issues of public import." [President Bush, 3/27/02]

…Bush says 527s bad for system: "I don't think we ought to have 527s. I can't be more plain about it…I think they're bad for the system. That's why I signed the bill, McCain-Feingold." [President Bush, 8/23/04]

27. Medical Records

Bush says medical records must remain private: "I believe that we must protect…the right of every American to have confidence that his or her personal medical records will remain private." [President Bush, 4/12/01]

…Bush says patients' histories are not confidntial: The Justice Department…asserts that patients "no longer possess a reasonable expectation that their histories will remain completely confidential." [BusinessWeek, 4/30/04]

28. Timelines For Dictators

Bush sets timeline for Saddam: "If Iraq does not accept the terms within a week of passage or fails to disclose required information within 30 days, the resolution authorizes 'all necessary means' to force compliance--in other words, a military attack." [LA Times, 10/3/02]

…Bush says he's against timelines: "I don't think you give timelines to dictators." [President Bush, 8/27/04]

29. The Great Lakes

Bush wants to divert great lakes: "Even though experts say 'diverting any water from the Great Lakes region sets a bad precedent' Bush 'said he wants to talk to Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chrétien about piping water to parched states in the west and southwest.'– [AP, 7/19/01]

Bush says he'll never divert Great Lakes: "We've got to use our resources wisely, like water. It starts with keeping the Great Lakes water in the Great Lakes Basin...My position is clear: We're never going to allow diversion of Great Lakes water." [President Bush, 8/16/04]

30. Winning The War On Terror

Bush claims he can win the war on terror: "One of the interesting things people ask me, now that we're asking questions, is, can you ever win the war on terror? Of course, you can." [President Bush, 4/13/04]

…Bush says war on terror is unwinnable: "I don't think you can win [the war on terror]." [President Bush, 8/30/04]

…Bush says he will win the war on terror: "Make no mistake about it, we are winning and we will win [the war on terror]." [President Bush, 8/31/04]

[Yonivore]

Why don't you start your own thread if you want to talk about alleged "flip-flops" by the President, this one is about Kerry's latest.

So, really, did Kerry actually believe, last month, that he'd of gone into Iraq even if he had know there were no stockpiles of Weapons of Mass Destruction?

Is his decision matrix so fucked up that we'd have to guess from one month to the next if he, as President, would commit our troops to war?

[Bandit2981]

come on despurado, we've been through this before, i guess ill explain it one more time so it gets through your thick commie skull....kerry flip flops!! bush makes pragmatic policy shifts!! :lol

[DeSPURado]

You can't do one without the other, without looking like a hypocrite Yonivore.

[LandSharkII]

The liberals are losing the argument so they have to change the subject. Typical.

[Yonivore]

I'll take your refusal to respond as agreement.

[DeSPURado]

Refusal to respond means it doesn't matter. Say Kerry Flip flopped. Argue it all you want. His decision to oppose the Iraq war as his campaign platform is the right one.

[SpursWoman]

I still like the Hulk Hogan vs. Sadaam steel cage match idea

That's a priceless visual. :lol

[Yonivore]

But, he supported Iraq -- by vote and by declaration, just last month.

Which is it? Really? I think the country deserves an answer.

[DeSPURado]

What would it matter. He didn't have the final say in sending troops there anyways. It's Bush's war, and its an unmitigated disaster.

[Yonivore]

So, he just throws he votes around and says whatever -- because "it doesn't matter?"

I see.

[LandSharkII]

It's Bush's war, and its an unmitigated disaster.
I agree.

Sincerely,

Saddam Hussein :cry

[SpursWoman]

Bush had the final say?


Kerry voted for it, too. :lol :rollin

[Yonivore]

By the way, we're winning the war.

And, when the terrorists are defeated in Iraq, I expect you to apologize to all the soldiers that fought their asses off while you pooh-poohed their efforts here at home in an attempt to undermine the President for political gain.

[DeSPURado]

Kerry does not share any of the responsibility in the final decision to send our troops to Iraq. At that point it was out of his hands.

You guys make it sound like this is a shock to you. That this is changing your vote. Its not and you know it. So gee why are you bringing it up? Hmm let me think about that one for a while.

[Yonivore]

I'm not saying he changed his vote. He's changed his mind on the Iraq issue 4 fucking times, jeeze...what does he believe?

[DeSPURado]

This is the right decision. Thats all that matters.

[Tommy Duncan]

Kerry is nothing but an empty suit he is willing to say anything to become president. Give me a fucking break about how this is what he really believed in all along.

[IcemanCometh]

How does that make him any different from Bush?

[Hook Dem]

"This is the right decision. Thats all that matters." .........And what will you say when he flips again next month Despurate?:rollin

[Tommy Duncan]

The one thing to say for Bush is that he is willing to make a decision and stick with it, regardless of how it would affect his chances of reelection.

[DeSPURado]

Kerry: Two years ago, Congress was right to give the President the authority to use force to hold Saddam Hussein accountable. This President ... any President ... would have needed the threat of force to act effectively. This President misused that authority.
Bush: Today, my opponent continued his pattern of twisting in the wind, with new contradictions of his old positions on Iraq.
Kerry, 2002: The Senate can now make a determination about this resolution and, in this historic vote, help put our country and the world on a course to begin to answer one fundamental question - not whether to hold Saddam Hussein accountable, but how.

Kerry: The power entrusted to the President gave him a strong hand to play in the international community. The idea was simple. We would get the weapons inspectors back in to verify whether or not Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. And we would convince the world to speak with one voice to Saddam: disarm or be disarmed.
Bush: My opponent looked at that intelligence, as he had for many years since he had been in Washington for a long period of time, and voted "yes" when it came to the authorization of the use of force.
Kerry, 2002: I have said publicly for years that weapons of mass destruction in the hands of Saddam Hussein pose a real and grave threat to our security and that of our allies in the Persian Gulf region.

Kerry: Yet today, President Bush tells us that he would do everything all over again, the same way. How can he possibly be serious? Is he really saying that if we knew there was no weapons of mass destruction, no ties to Al Qaeda, no other imminent threat, the United States should have invaded Iraq?
Bush: He apparently woke up this morning and has now decided, no, we should not have invaded Iraq, after just last month saying he still would have voted for force, even knowing everything we know today.
Kerry, 2002: Today the administration has refocused their aim and made clear we are not in an arbitrary conflict with one of the world's many dictators, but a conflict with a dictator whom the international community left in power only because he agreed not to pursue weapons of mass destruction ... I am pleased that the Bush administration has recognized the wisdom of shifting its approach on Iraq.

Kerry: I would have tightened the noose and continued to pressure and isolate Saddam Hussein - who was weak and getting weaker - so that he would pose no threat to the region or America.
Bush: Incredibly, he now believes our national security would be stronger with Saddam Hussein in power, not in prison.
Kerry, 2002: ou make it clear to the world that we are contemplating war not for war's sake, and not to accomplish goals that don't meet international standards or muster with respect to national security, but because weapons inspections may be the ultimate enforcement mechanism, and that may be the way in which we ultimately protect ourselves.

Kerry: Saddam Hussein was a brutal dictator who deserves his own special place in hell. But that was not, in itself, a reason to go to war. The satisfaction we take in his downfall does not hide this fact: we have traded a dictator for a chaos that has left America less secure.
Bush: Today he said, "We have traded a dictator for a chaos that has left America less secure." He's saying he prefers the stability of a dictatorship to the hope and security of democracy.
Kerry, 2002: As much as we decry the way he has treated his people, regime change alone is not a sufficient reason for going to war, as desirable as it is to change the regime.

Kerry: Can anyone seriously say this President has handled Iraq in a way that makes us stronger in the war on terrorism? By any measure, the answer is no. Nuclear dangers have mounted across the globe. The international terrorist club has expanded. Radicalism in the Middle East is on the rise. We have divided our friends and united our enemies.
Bush: I couldn't disagree more. And not so long ago, so did my opponent. Last December, he said this: "Those who doubted whether Iraq or the world would be better off without Saddam Hussein, and those who believe we are not safer with his capture don't have the judgment to be President or the credibility to be elected President."
Kerry, 2002: Last week the Secretary of State and on Monday night the President made clear we would go to war only to disarm Iraq.

Kerry: We must have a great honest national debate on Iraq. The President claims it is the centerpiece of his war on terror. In fact, Iraq was a profound diversion from that war and the battle against our greatest enemy, Osama bin Laden and the terrorists. Invading Iraq has created a crisis of historic proportions and, if we do not change course, there is the prospect of a war with no end in sight.
Bush: He also changed his mind and decided that our efforts in Iraq are now a distraction from the war on terror, when he earlier acknowledged that confronting Saddam Hussein was critical to the war on terror.
Kerry, 2002: By casting about in an unfocused, undisciplined, overly public, internal debate for a rationale for war, the administration complicated their case, confused the American public, and compromised America's credibility in the eyes of the world community. By engaging in hasty war talk rather than focusing on the central issue of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, the administration placed doubts in the minds of potential allies, particularly in the Middle East, where managing the Arab street is difficult at best.

What John Kerry said
September 20, 2004
Speech at New York University (http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/speeches/spc_2004_0920.html)

George W. Bush's take
September 20, 2004
Bush's remarks (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/09/20040920-11.html)

What John Kerry said
October 9, 2002
Kerry's Iraq war resolution speech (http://www.c-span.org/vote2004/kerryspeech.asp)

[Hook Dem]

But what about just last month where he said he would have still have gone in knowing what he does now? Why must you go back to 2002 when last month is staring you in the face? You are just adding fuel to the fire where he changes his position quite frequently!:lol

[Yonivore]

I notice you didn't address the flip-flop of him saying he'd of done just what the President did, only different.

[DeSPURado]

Again its the right decision, and that is all that matters.

Kerry got too worried about politics and was afraid of becoming another McGovern. You and I know thats what happened. The one lovely thing about this is it doesn't make an iota of difference. This is what Kerry believes. He's following his heart now. And its the right decision.

[Yonivore]

So, he'd rather be a Dukakis? That's fine by me.

[Nbadan]

If you ask me it is W. who has fallen into the pattern of LBJ. Both led the country into wars under false pretenses. Both were in way over their heads once they got the country into those wars. Both politicized the war against the wishes of the commanders on the field. Both were slaves to the country's military/industrial complex. Both kept increasing the number of forces in the field as it became more and more evident that the war they were fighting was a losing effort. Both had bigger battles to fight somewhere else. Both had an average of 49% approval rating, and both served only one term.

[Tommy Duncan]

If you ask me danny has no clue what he is talking about. He just read some rantings on an extremist left wing message board comparing Iraq to Vietnam and he thought that sounded cool. Give it a rest already chump.