Dennis Rodman as a San Antonio SPur

[lefty]

Do you blame him for the 1995 debacle? (Hakeem was unstoppable though)

WHat was your reaction when the Spurs shouldnt have traded him for Perdue?
(not that It really matters now, Duncan filled that PF spot pretty well)

[baseline bum]

He and Bob Hill were both stupid fucks in that series. I blame Hill more; the coach isn't supposed to act like a grade-schooler. The Perdue trade sucked, but no one other than Chicago would touch Rodman with a 10' pole after his act in the entire 95 playoffs.

[ambchang]

Tough to say, Bob Hill was just as responsible for that mess

cvCdFeYKggM

Rodman never guarded Horry, leaving him for wide open shots (I am watching Game 1 again over the last few days, so I am not pulling this out of my ass).

Robinson was consistently singling Hakeem, Hakeem would make his move, and the "help" defense would arrive when/after Hakeem launched his shots. Hakeem was phenomenal throughout the series, but I never understood why the Spurs never doubled Hakeem. Was it the fear of their 3 pt shooters? If so, why was Rodman even in the game when all he did was hanging around the basket? Why not let Rodman guard Hakeem 1-1 to lessen the load on Robinson?

I would say Hill #2, Rodman #2, Robinson #3 in the series.

Robinson didn't really went to the basket as aggressively to get Hakeem in foul trouble as much as he did in the the 1st quarter in Game 1.

[ambchang]

BTW, Drexler was abusing Elliott and Del Negro endlessly throughout the series, just painful to watch.

[Axe Murderer]

Do you blame him for the 1995 debacle?

Can't really blame him. I would be pissed too if somebody was constantly chasing me with a bible the way Robinson was that season

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Can't really blame him. I would be pissed too if somebody was constantly chasing me with a bible the way Robinson was that season
+1

look what happened when Rodman went to the Bulls and had a team leader who let his teammates lead their own lives without forcing a bible down their throats, Rodman became a team player. If D-Rob let Rodman party like Jordan did Rodman wouldn't have been a problem in 1995, but he just grew tired of being chased around with a bible.

[LatinLover69]

Jamie Feick was the best ever!!!!!!!!

[lefty]

Thanks for your answers guys

And :lol @ Axe Murderer.



Yeah I guess they were afraid of their 3 pt shooters; I mean, their bombers were unconscious during the 95 playoffs.


I agree on the fact that Rodman was a tad nonchalant on defense during the series; I pulled a few hair out because of that

And the fact that Drexler was rejuvenated during those playoffs didnt help

[wildbill2u]

I didn't like Rodman for his play during the season either. He was a dirty player IMO> I saw him deliberately submarine under players when they went up for shots, endangering their careers if they came down wrong.

I don't care how many rebounds you get, that is NOT the way to play the game.

[ChuckD]

Do you blame him for the 1995 debacle? (Hakeem was unstoppable though)

WHat was your reaction when the Spurs shouldnt have traded him for Perdue?
(not that It really matters now, Duncan filled that PF spot pretty well)

Y'Know, Amare was pretty fucking unstoppable in 2005 and 2007, but because EVERYONE played their man, we won those series. You can have the pivot go off on teams like those, if you blanket the shooters,

Rodman wore a Spurs jersey, and that's about as close as he came to being on the team. He was definitely doing his own thing.

[therealtruth]

Y'Know, Amare was pretty fucking unstoppable in 2005 and 2007, but because EVERYONE played their man, we won those series. You can have the pivot go off on teams like those, if you blanket the shooters,

Rodman wore a Spurs jersey, and that's about as close as he came to being on the team. He was definitely doing his own thing.

You're right about 2005. I think Amare averaged 37 but Spurs kept single coverage. I think if the Spurs had played Memphis single coverage they would have probably won. Because of not properly integrating Splitter and playing Bonner too much they couldn't use that strategy. Duncan should have guarded Randolph more.

[Leetonidas]

+1

look what happened when Rodman went to the Bulls and had a team leader who let his teammates lead their own lives without forcing a bible down their throats, Rodman became a team player. If D-Rob let Rodman party like Jordan did Rodman wouldn't have been a problem in 1995, but he just grew tired of being chased around with a bible.

Amen brother! GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWD

[Stalin]

+1

look what happened when Rodman went to the Bulls and had a team leader who let his teammates lead their own lives without forcing a bible down their throats, Rodman became a team player. If D-Rob let Rodman party like Jordan did Rodman wouldn't have been a problem in 1995, but he just grew tired of being chased around with a bible.

rodman was a team player before sa, when he won 2 championships with the pistons, i think sa was too controlling for him, so he didn't try as hard, there is no doubt, in chicago/detroit he gave full effort

[FromWayDowntown]

The Spurs lost the 1995 WCF in the last minute of Game 1. It was a close game, but Robinson split a pair of FT at around the 1 minute mark, the Spurs got a stop -- a steal, actually -- and Sean Elliott got fouled on the break and missed both of his FT. Instead of being up 3 or 4, which they should have been, the Spurs were up 1.

I think Rodman basically decided he was done after Elliott's missed FT. He appeared to be the guy who was supposed to be guarding Horry (who spent most of that play hanging out above the 3 point arc and then took a dribble and two steps inside the arc to hit his game-winner -- un-Horry like, in retrospect); Horry, however, was all alone for most of that play. Rodman made a relatively half-hearted effort to drop down and get a steal after the initial play set up and then hung out in the middle for the rest of the play. It made some sense, given that Hakeem threatened the middle as the clock wound down, but when Hakeem found Horry all alone, Rodman was standing almost on the baseline and his man was above the arc and above the free throw line. Someone else should have rotated, but nobody did. Horry hit the shot, the Rockets stole Game 1, Rodman was mentally done, and the series was basically over.

It wasn't all Rodman's fault, but it would be ridiculous to say that he was blameless.

[bigfan]

From what I remember he played great in the regular season then became a grade A asshole in the playoffs.

[ambchang]

rodman was a team player before sa, when he won 2 championships with the pistons, i think sa was too controlling for him, so he didn't try as hard, there is no doubt, in chicago/detroit he gave full effort

Rodman was very destructive his last few years with the Pistons. That's why he got traded.

[baseline bum]

Y'Know, Amare was pretty fucking unstoppable in 2005 and 2007, but because EVERYONE played their man, we won those series. You can have the pivot go off on teams like those, if you blanket the shooters,

Rodman wore a Spurs jersey, and that's about as close as he came to being on the team. He was definitely doing his own thing.

The Spurs overcame Amare in 05 because they had an offensive juggernaut of a team with prime Duncan, Ginobili, and Parker and A+ role-players in Horry and Barry not to mention the greatest perimeter defender in franchise history in Bowen. That 95 team had one of the worst backcourts in the league and Person gave them nothing off the bench. That team was all Robinson, Rodman, and Elliott, and Rodman decided to have a fit that entire playoff run.

[FromWayDowntown]

From what I remember he played great in the regular season then became a grade A asshole in the playoffs.

He was great for a long stretch during the regular season that year. He didn't start playing until early December and then he wasn't a starter until late January, but in the 26 games he started, he was terrific -- 8.5 PPG, 19.4 RPG, 2.2 APG, .564 FG, .763 FT

Then, he had a motorcycle accident (on a game day in March) in which he injured his shoulder, causing him to miss a month. The Spurs went something like 12-2 without him and things never seemed to be the same after that. When he returned, his minutes in the few regular season games that remained were pretty spotty, which I'm sure didn't help much.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Still trying to convince myself the fucker was never a Spur and all about 95 is just a bad dream. Fuck him.

[baseline bum]

Rodman was very destructive his last few years with the Pistons. That's why he got traded.

And in his time with the Lakers and Mavericks too. Amazing that someone who put up monster rebounding numbers in both of those stops (11 a game in LA and 14 a game in Dallas) lasted less than half a season in the first and about 1/7th of the season in the last. So were Shaq and Cuban chasing him around with a bible too?

[baseline bum]

I remember Shaq just begging the Lakers to sign him in 99; he told them he wanted "a shooter (Rice) and a thug (Rodman)". And then Rodman shit all over him. Chicago was the only place Rodman could survive, because he knew Jordan would literally beat the shit out of him if he didn't try there.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

The Spurs overcame Amare in 05 because they had an offensive juggernaut of a team with prime Duncan, Ginobili, and Parker and A+ role-players in Horry and Barry not to mention the greatest perimeter defender in franchise history in Bowen. That 95 team had one of the worst backcourts in the league and Person gave them nothing off the bench. That team was all Robinson, Rodman, and Elliott, and Rodman decided to have a fit that entire playoff run.
This is true, Brent Barry was by far the most underrated player on that 05 Spurs team. There was one game in the 05 WCF Brent Barry won on his own with unconscious 3 point shooting in the 4th quarter (when a lot of the shots were contested and several feet behind the arc)

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Still the 05 Spurs woulda sucked if D-Rob was trying to shove a bible down everybody's throat :lol

[lefty]

I remember Shaq just begging the Lakers to sign him in 99; he told them he wanted "a shooter (Rice) and a thug (Rodman)". And then Rodman shit all over him. Chicago was the only place Rodman could survive, because he knew Jordan would literally beat the shit out of him if he didn't try there.

Jordan's leadership is a factor, I agree.

But let's not forget that the Bulls did their due diligence

I believe KFC and Krause has a 1-2 hour meeting with Rodman before the 95-96 season
Plus. KFC is a fucking hippie, so I'm sure It was a welcome change for Rodman compared to the Spurs culture

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

The Spurs lost the 1995 WCF in the last minute of Game 1. It was a close game, but Robinson split a pair of FT at around the 1 minute mark, the Spurs got a stop -- a steal, actually -- and Sean Elliott got fouled on the break and missed both of his FT. Instead of being up 3 or 4, which they should have been, the Spurs were up 1.

I think Rodman basically decided he was done after Elliott's missed FT. He appeared to be the guy who was supposed to be guarding Horry (who spent most of that play hanging out above the 3 point arc and then took a dribble and two steps inside the arc to hit his game-winner -- un-Horry like, in retrospect); Horry, however, was all alone for most of that play. Rodman made a relatively half-hearted effort to drop down and get a steal after the initial play set up and then hung out in the middle for the rest of the play. It made some sense, given that Hakeem threatened the middle as the clock wound down, but when Hakeem found Horry all alone, Rodman was standing almost on the baseline and his man was above the arc and above the free throw line. Someone else should have rotated, but nobody did. Horry hit the shot, the Rockets stole Game 1, Rodman was mentally done, and the series was basically over.

It wasn't all Rodman's fault, but it would be ridiculous to say that he was blameless.

I remember that. Rodman's willingness to basically mail it in when he got frustrated/bored, whatever it was, was always hard to watch.

Even when Rodman was dialed in it was really anyone's guess as to exactly what he was going to do. I never viewed him as a "great" defender, or at least a dependable one, as he was out of position so often, and he was definitely an offensive liability. His gift was grabbing rebounds and that was it. Under Pop I think Rodman's head would have exploded. Pop's 'doghouse' would have been renamed the 'Rodhouse'. I don't think Rodman would have seen a lot of court time had Pop been coaching in that '95 playoffs.

Of course, some might argue that if the '95 team were a Pop coached team we'd of seen David and four guards out there against the Rockets, so there may not have been a lot of room for Rodman anyway.

[baseline bum]

Jordan's leadership is a factor, I agree.

But let's not forget that the Bulls did their due diligence

I believe KFC and Krause has a 1-2 hour meeting with Rodman before the 95-96 season
Plus. KFC is a fucking hippie, so I'm sure It was a welcome change for Rodman compared to the Spurs culture

The laid back culture playing for the Lakers didn't do anything for him. Having an owner in Cuban who constantly kissed his ass and let him be himself was disastrous in Dallas. He just didn't want to get his ass kicked. Jordan was notorious for punching and beating teammates who pissed him off; for example, Horace Grant and Steve Kerr.

[baseline bum]

I think Rodman basically decided he was done after Elliott's missed FT. He appeared to be the guy who was supposed to be guarding Horry (who spent most of that play hanging out above the 3 point arc and then took a dribble and two steps inside the arc to hit his game-winner -- un-Horry like, in retrospect); Horry, however, was all alone for most of that play. Rodman made a relatively half-hearted effort to drop down and get a steal after the initial play set up and then hung out in the middle for the rest of the play. It made some sense, given that Hakeem threatened the middle as the clock wound down, but when Hakeem found Horry all alone, Rodman was standing almost on the baseline and his man was above the arc and above the free throw line. Someone else should have rotated, but nobody did. Horry hit the shot, the Rockets stole Game 1, Rodman was mentally done, and the series was basically over.


'Eh, that was typical Spurs Rodman. Mail the game in Rodman is what we saw in game 2 when he started jacking up threes, refused to get back in transition, and thus got his ass benched the final 2.5 quarters for it in a must-win game.

[baseline bum]

I remember that. Rodman's willingness to basically mail it in when he got frustrated/bored, whatever it was, was always hard to watch.

Even when Rodman was dialed in it was really anyone's guess as to exactly what he was going to do. I never viewed him as a "great" defender, or at least a dependable one, as he was out of position so often, and he was definitely an offensive liability. His gift was grabbing rebounds and that was it. Under Pop I think Rodman's head would have exploded. Pop's 'doghouse' would have been renamed the 'Rodhouse'. I don't think Rodman would have seen a lot of court time had Pop been coaching in that '95 playoffs.

Of course, some might argue that if the '95 team were a Pop coached team we'd of seen David and four guards out there against the Rockets, so there may not have been a lot of room for Rodman anyway.

Rodman was a spectacular defender early on in Detroit. He had great timing on his shotblocking and hustled like hell. He just quit playing D and only cared about padding his rebounding numbers by the time he got to SA. He was famous for that faggy straight up and down jog he always did downcourt whether it was a transition play or just something setting up in the halfcourt.

[FromWayDowntown]

'Eh, that was typical Spurs Rodman. Mail the game in Rodman is what we saw in game 2 when he started jacking up threes, refused to get back in transition, and thus got his ass benched the final 2.5 quarters for it in a must-win game.

Undoubtedly. I have a vivid recollection of those 3's in Game 2 -- I was listening to the game on the radio (back when even an sold-out WCF game wasn't necessarily broadcast locally) and you could sense the deflating effect that Bad Worm was having on his teammates. Even being down only 5-10 points, it seemed like an insurmountable hill, particularly after the deflating way that they lost Game 1.

But you're absolutely right about the way the Worm turned in those days. It was almost literally a moment-by-moment question with Dennis during the 1995 playoffs.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Rodman was a spectacular defender early on in Detroit. He had great timing on his shotblocking and hustled like hell. He just quit playing D and only cared about padding his rebounding numbers by the time he got to SA. He was famous for that faggy straight up and down jog he always did downcourt whether it was a transition play or just something setting up in the halfcourt.

:lol That's a good way to describe the "jog". He really did look like he was trying to smuggle corn cobs across the border.

[lefty]

The laid back culture playing for the Lakers didn't do anything for him. Having an owner in Cuban who constantly kissed his ass and let him be himself was disastrous in Dallas. He just didn't want to get his ass kicked. Jordan was notorious for punching and beating teammates who pissed him off; for example, Horace Grant and Steve Kerr.
WHo was coaching the Lakers back then? Harris or Rambis (I don't remember); the Lakers' culture was laid back, but Kurt and Del weren't

Yeah Jordan was mean (except vs Cartwright)


Maybe the 2 extremes (too much bible chasing and too much freedom) don't work with Rodman

I gess KFC found the middle ground (that and Jordan mean bubble gums)

[baseline bum]

Undoubtedly. I have a vivid recollection of those 3's in Game 2 -- I was listening to the game on the radio (back when even an sold-out WCF game wasn't necessarily broadcast locally) and you could sense the deflating effect that Bad Worm was having on his teammates. Even being down only 5-10 points, it seemed like an insurmountable hill, particularly after the deflating way that they lost Game 1.

But you're absolutely right about the way the Worm turned in those days. It was almost literally a moment-by-moment question with Dennis during the 1995 playoffs.

That was back in the PPV days. Games 1 & 2 were either $29.95 or $49.95 each on First Choice; I think it was the latter. That really made Rob's shot in game 1 and the Rodman game 2 debacle seem like such kicks to the nuts. :lol

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

The HOF lost more credibility based on his admittance. The same criteria that got Rodman in should get Bruce Bowen in, I'm assuming. And I don't know how people can argue Horry's potential HOF possibilities when Rodman appeared to get in without much problem.

:pctoss

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

.

But you're absolutely right about the way the Worm turned in those days. It was almost literally a moment-by-moment question with Dennis during the 1995 playoffs.

I can't count the number of times that various local sports casters and writers made "As the World/Worm Turns" pun in reference to his drama back in the day.

[FromWayDowntown]

I can't count the number of times that various local sports casters and writers made "As the World/Worm Turns" pun in reference to his drama back in the day.

Unlike you, SFIE, I rely almost entirely on dated witticism.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Nonsense, FWD. It was already dated back when those clowns were saying it every other week. Now it's aged to perfection. :toast

[cantthinkofanything]

The HOF lost more credibility based on his admittance. The same criteria that got Rodman in should get Bruce Bowen in, I'm assuming. And I don't know how people can argue Horry's potential HOF possibilities when Rodman appeared to get in without much problem.

:pctoss

I don't know about that. Rodman is #10 in all time rebounding. Everyone higher and most all the way through #30 are HOF's. Allthough most of those guys were great all around players. But couple the rebounding with two DOP awards and I think Rodman is a pretty easy selection. I can't find anything to back up Horry like that. Aside from the titles.

[bigfan]

It would have been interesting to see Rodman act a fool if Pop was the head coach. Clash of the Titans type action.

[ambchang]

The HOF lost more credibility based on his admittance. The same criteria that got Rodman in should get Bruce Bowen in, I'm assuming. And I don't know how people can argue Horry's potential HOF possibilities when Rodman appeared to get in without much problem.

:pctoss

I wouldn't go so far. Rodman is without a doubt the greatest rebounder in the history of the league, Bowen is no where close to that.

Also, as much as I detest Rodman for what he did while being a Spur, he was a spectacular defender with the Pistons, and later with the Bulls.

It was really a shame what he did while he was a Spur.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

It would have been interesting to see Rodman act a fool if Pop was the head coach. Clash of the Titans type action.

There's one titan and one worm, not much of a clash really.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I don't know about that. Rodman is #10 in all time rebounding. Everyone higher and most all the way through #30 are HOF's. Allthough most of those guys were great all around players. But couple the rebounding with two DOP awards and I think Rodman is a pretty easy selection. I can't find anything to back up Horry like that. Aside from the titles.

I'm with you...just older and more bitter than you are. :)



Rodman just struck me as an anomoly when it came to rebounding because it was clear he would choose to just do that and nothing else at times. He could definitely play D when he tried, he just chose not to much of the time.

Horry was pivitol in so many championships and whatever team he played for was always a winner. I love Horry, but I know my vote doesn't really matter.

If the people voting DPOY were unbiased I think Bowen would have/should have had at least 3 of those. Put 3 DPOY's on Bowen's resume and he's in the Hall. Oh well...I guess I need to stop with the coulda shoulda's.




The more I think about Dennis Rodman destroying Robinson's best season the more I hate him.



This thread sucks ass. :pctoss

[senorglory]

Was Robinson really trying to convert players or preaching the gospel?

[FromWayDowntown]

Was Robinson really trying to convert players or preaching the gospel?

I remember that WOAI used to have a weekly Spurs show with a player coming on during an off-day to talk about the team. Frequently, in that season, that player was Sean Elliott (unsurprisingly, perhaps -- it may have actually been called the Sean Elliott Show or something like that) and he would always mention what he called "The Prayer Wars" that would go on between Avery Johnson and David Robinson. He would tell stories about one trying to outdo the other with a pre-game prayer. You got the sense that some of the guys were receptive to it, that others played along, but that there were still others who were really turned off by it. For whatever it's worth, I seem to recall Jack Haley (in his initial performance as Rodman's babysitter) basically corroborating that story and making mention of the fact that he and Dennis were really turned off by the whole thing.

I don't know that there was full-on effort to convert anyone, but with David Robinson, Avery Johnson, and Terry Cummings in that room, there were some fairly vocal spokesmen for God hanging around.

[lefty]

Prayer Wars

Sean :lol

[itzsoweezee]

I was happy to see him gone.

[ChuckD]

rodman was a team player before sa, when he won 2 championships with the pistons, i think sa was too controlling for him, so he didn't try as hard, there is no doubt, in chicago/detroit he gave full effort

Revisionist history. He played team ball his first few seasons in Detroit, but they were definitely ready to get rid of him after the whole rifle to his head in his truck in the parking lot incident.

The fact is, Dennis Rodman was a mental ten year old, and an unstable one at that. The best way to get that new contract he wanted in SA was to STFU, d-up, get the boards, and win. Instead, he melted down and pouted.

Rodman did best in situations where he had babysitters in the locker room, the antithesis of the Spurs personal accountability program. He NEEDED to be controlled and did best when he was in those situations, instead of where he was expected to be an adult and control himself.

People think he only failed in SA, but he had brief stops and quick dumps in DAL and with the LAL. Even the Lakers couldn't handle him without proper locker room babysitters. He was still averaging double digit boards, but both teams dropped him like an ugly girl after only partial seasons.

[ChuckD]

I wouldn't go so far. Rodman is without a doubt the greatest rebounder in the history of the league, Bowen is no where close to that.

Also, as much as I detest Rodman for what he did while being a Spur, he was a spectacular defender with the Pistons, and later with the Bulls.

It was really a shame what he did while he was a Spur.

Uh, fuck no. Wilt, for all of his scoring, averaged 22.9 for his career. Rodman's best single season was 18.7, and that's really all he did. Slow your roll.

[lefty]

Uh, fuck no. Wilt, for all of his scoring, averaged 22.9 for his career. Rodman's best single season was 18.7, and that's really all he did. Slow your roll.

Wiltvwas the Shaq of his era

Rodman outrebounded much bigger players, and the likes of Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson, etc...

[ChuckD]

Wiltvwas the Shaq of his era

Rodman outrebounded much bigger players, and the likes of Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson, etc...

So? Wilt's career average is five boards better than Rodman's single best season. If you want to compare legitimately, Wilt's career mark is almost 10 boards per game better than Worm's. He also did MUCH more than just rebound like The Worm. He led the league in scoring and rebounding multiple times, and in 1967-68, when he got tired of people saying he was shot happy, he led the league in assists.

Oh, and Wilt was not the Shaq of his era, he was Shaq, actualized...what Shaq could have been if he weren't a lazy ass. Wilt gave as much effort as The Worm, and he did more things much better, including a CLEAR and significant edge as a rebounder. They shouldn't even be in the same conversation as rebounders. 22.9 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 13.1

[FromWayDowntown]

I'd be a little cautious about comparing Wilt and Rodman on sheer per game averages. When Wilt was piling up his biggest rebounding numbers, teams were averaging well over 100 FGA per game and were shooting abysmal percentages. In 1960-61, teams averaged about 110 FGA/gm and the league (collectively) shot .415 from the field. That leaves a whole lot of rebounds to be had -- well more than 120 rebounds per game.

In 1993-94, Rodman's first year with the Spurs, teams were taking about 84 shots per game and making about 47% of those shots. That leaves about 90 rebounds per game, about 30 fewer rebounding opportunities per game than Wilt had.

I'm not necessarily disputing the basic conclusion, but Rodman didn't have the kind of rebounding opportunities that Wilt did. I don't think you can just ignore that in this sort of an argument.

Expressed as a percentage of all available rebounds in a game, I'd be shocked if Rodman's numbers weren't better than Wilt's.

[TDMVPDPOY]

wtf was wrong with rodman? he was good as a piston b4 comin to the spurs, then with the bulls also

how come he couldnt play like this when he was a spur?

[ambchang]

Wiltvwas the Shaq of his era

Rodman outrebounded much bigger players, and the likes of Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson, etc...

I would not go into strict per game averages, and would rather look into pace and available rebounds. If there were 50 rebounds available, and one guy grabbed 20 of them, that is much more impressive as a guy who grabbed 25 rebounds when there were 100 available. As a rebounder, you can only grabbed what's missed.

I am not going to look into every ingle season, but when Wilt averaged his 27.2 rebounds, there was an average of 148 rebounds a game, which meant he averaged about 18.5% of available rebounds.

Rodman otoh, played in an era where games have around 80 rebounds a game. He had a peak of 18.7 in his peak, or 23% of all available rebounds. That is a ridiculous number however you slice it.

I agree that rodman has an advantage because that is all he does, but as a rebounder, he has no equal.

[ambchang]

wtf was wrong with rodman? he was good as a piston b4 comin to the spurs, then with the bulls also

how come he couldnt play like this when he was a spur?

He lost it with the pistons after the team was no longer a contender, he was very destructive then already.

People gave Jordan a lot of credit for putting rOdman in line, but based on his hof speech, it seems Jackson should take more of the credit.

[therealtruth]

I'd be a little cautious about comparing Wilt and Rodman on sheer per game averages. When Wilt was piling up his biggest rebounding numbers, teams were averaging well over 100 FGA per game and were shooting abysmal percentages. In 1960-61, teams averaged about 110 FGA/gm and the league (collectively) shot .415 from the field. That leaves a whole lot of rebounds to be had -- well more than 120 rebounds per game.

In 1993-94, Rodman's first year with the Spurs, teams were taking about 84 shots per game and making about 47% of those shots. That leaves about 90 rebounds per game, about 30 fewer rebounding opportunities per game than Wilt had.

I'm not necessarily disputing the basic conclusion, but Rodman didn't have the kind of rebounding opportunities that Wilt did. I don't think you can just ignore that in this sort of an argument.

Expressed as a percentage of all available rebounds in a game, I'd be shocked if Rodman's numbers weren't better than Wilt's.

Exactly this. The stat to look at is rebounding percentage or rebound rate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebound_rate). In that category Rodman is the top in NBA history. Basically when he was on the floor he grabbed the highest percentage of available rebounds.

[FromWayDowntown]

Exactly this. The stat to look at is rebounding percentage or rebound rate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebound_rate). In that category Rodman is the top in NBA history. Basically when he was on the floor he grabbed the highest percentage of available rebounds.

Be careful about using that statistic too much, if only because the available resources tend to only go back to about 1967-68 (that's where basketball-reference stops with calculations of rebounding rate). For the years that it has been calculated, Rodman laps the field. But we don't have those calculations done for the years when Chamberlain and Russell were beasting on the glass. My guess is that the volume of available rebounds during that time will reduce their rates and that Rodman's rate would be higher. But without that calculation, it's just a guess.

[ChuckD]

I'd be a little cautious about comparing Wilt and Rodman on sheer per game averages. When Wilt was piling up his biggest rebounding numbers, teams were averaging well over 100 FGA per game and were shooting abysmal percentages. In 1960-61, teams averaged about 110 FGA/gm and the league (collectively) shot .415 from the field. That leaves a whole lot of rebounds to be had -- well more than 120 rebounds per game.

In 1993-94, Rodman's first year with the Spurs, teams were taking about 84 shots per game and making about 47% of those shots. That leaves about 90 rebounds per game, about 30 fewer rebounding opportunities per game than Wilt had.

I'm not necessarily disputing the basic conclusion, but Rodman didn't have the kind of rebounding opportunities that Wilt did. I don't think you can just ignore that in this sort of an argument.

Expressed as a percentage of all available rebounds in a game, I'd be shocked if Rodman's numbers weren't better than Wilt's.

Well, if that 90 available boards is a representative sample, I'll back Wilt against Rodman's career 13.1/90. I mean, even if Wilt's available boards were a ridiculous 150, that's still 23.9/150. I also think there is an undetermined variable: in Wilt's games, there were likely fewer available boards than the normal amount for his era. He took a shitload of shots in those games, and scored a lot at a very high percentage.

[FromWayDowntown]

Meh, his first 5 years in the league, Chamberlain never shot better than 53% from the field. In fact, it was only when his shot attempts went down that the Dipper's shooting percentage went up:

1959-60 -- 2311 FGA (32.1/gm); .461
1960-61 -- 2457 FGA (31.1/gm); .509 (league leader)
1961-62 -- 3159 FGA (39.5/gm); .506
1962-63 -- 2770 FGA (34.6/gm); .528 (league leader)
1963-64 -- 2298 FGA (28.7/gm); .524
1964-65 -- 2083 FGA (28.5/gm); .510 (league leader)
1965-66 -- 1990 FGA (25.2/gm); .540 (league leader)
1966-67 -- 1150 FGA (14.2/gm); .683 (league leader)
1967-68 -- 1377 FGA (16.8/gm); .595 (league leader)
1968-69 -- 1099 FGA (13.6/gm); .583 (league leader)
1969-70 -- 277 FGA (18.9/gm); .568 (only played in 12 games)
1970-71 -- 1226 FGA (15.0/gm); .545
1971-72 -- 764 FGA (9.3/gm); .649 (league leader)
1972-73 -- 586 FGA (7.1/gm); .727 (league leader)

Thus, when Wilt was jacking up an unlimited number of shots per night, he was missing a whole lot -- in 1961-62, he was missing almost 20 shots per game by himself; in 1962-63, he was missing more than 15 per game by himself.

[TDMVPDPOY]

during wilts era, how come its only him and russell who avg +20rpg, did any other big avg thsoe sort of rebs...if not then it clearly shows how weak the league was back them, men playin among boys

[therealtruth]

This guy makes some good points http://skepticalsports.com/?p=331 in the comparison of Rodman and Wilt/Russell. He argues even though rebound rate wasn't always available you can estimate it based on extreme cases. Another factor is that Wilt averaged close to 48 while Rodman averaged less than 35 minutes per game. Rodman no doubt could have played more minutes and still have been effective. People say he was one of the best conditioned athletes ever. He would go on an exercise bike for more than half an hour after games.

[senorglory]

I remember that WOAI used to have a weekly Spurs show with a player coming on during an off-day to talk about the team. Frequently, in that season, that player was Sean Elliott (unsurprisingly, perhaps -- it may have actually been called the Sean Elliott Show or something like that) and he would always mention what he called "The Prayer Wars" that would go on between Avery Johnson and David Robinson. He would tell stories about one trying to outdo the other with a pre-game prayer. You got the sense that some of the guys were receptive to it, that others played along, but that there were still others who were really turned off by it. For whatever it's worth, I seem to recall Jack Haley (in his initial performance as Rodman's babysitter) basically corroborating that story and making mention of the fact that he and Dennis were really turned off by the whole thing.

I don't know that there was full-on effort to convert anyone, but with David Robinson, Avery Johnson, and Terry Cummings in that room, there were some fairly vocal spokesmen for God hanging around.

oh well. disappointing, but still one of my all-time favorite sports athletes.

[Gervin44Silas13]

its ALWAYS pissed me off that the Spurs were labeled soft 92-94

we got Rodman and we bested the best record in 1995....and we should have won the title that year.....

But is the city gonna blame Hill Robinson or Rodman???

Rodman got the blame for everything how shitty of that facy due to early in the 1998 season this city wanted Robinson Traded
Everybody loved Rodman but by the end he was hated....that sucks....even getting Sean ****** back wasn't enough

instead Rodman helped the Bulls get 3 more rings.....that fucking sucked!!!!


1995 1996 NBA Champions in a * alternate world

[DMC]

^ Baileys

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

The Spurs lost the 1995 WCF in the last minute of Game 1. It was a close game, but Robinson split a pair of FT at around the 1 minute mark, the Spurs got a stop -- a steal, actually -- and Sean Elliott got fouled on the break and missed both of his FT. Instead of being up 3 or 4, which they should have been, the Spurs were up 1.

I think Rodman basically decided he was done after Elliott's missed FT. He appeared to be the guy who was supposed to be guarding Horry (who spent most of that play hanging out above the 3 point arc and then took a dribble and two steps inside the arc to hit his game-winner -- un-Horry like, in retrospect); Horry, however, was all alone for most of that play. Rodman made a relatively half-hearted effort to drop down and get a steal after the initial play set up and then hung out in the middle for the rest of the play. It made some sense, given that Hakeem threatened the middle as the clock wound down, but when Hakeem found Horry all alone, Rodman was standing almost on the baseline and his man was above the arc and above the free throw line. Someone else should have rotated, but nobody did. Horry hit the shot, the Rockets stole Game 1, Rodman was mentally done, and the series was basically over.

It wasn't all Rodman's fault, but it would be ridiculous to say that he was blameless.


Rodman was famous for just checking out of games. That became more and more evident as his career wound down, ending with him sitting on the court for the Mavs. Jordan's fire is the only thing that kept Rodman's head in the game during his Bulls stint. Dude was a nut job...the anti-Spur.

[FromWayDowntown]

This might have been posted somewhere else, but for those who like to revisit the Rodman issue, here are flu or partial videos of the 1995 West Finals:

Game 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=savgYPCfKqg

Game 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjwmoiJuWho

Game 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Reo9p3g5CaU

Game 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXI9V8v1_fY

Game 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x30y9CUXRyU

Game 6: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FO-A8Yp3Xz0

[DrunkTXLabrat]

If Jordan's fire is what got Rodman rings, what does that say about David Robinson?

[Juggity]

If Jordan's fire is what got Rodman rings, what does that say about David Robinson?

Probably that Robinson wasn't enough of a nutcase to communicate with a nutcase. Jordan surely was, though.

[Gervin44Silas13]

David should have just let Rodman do his thing

and kept religion out of it!


If Jordan's fire is what got Rodman rings, what does that say about David Robinson?

[TDomination]

This might have been posted somewhere else, but for those who like to revisit the Rodman issue, here are flu or partial videos of the 1995 West Finals:

Game 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=savgYPCfKqg

Game 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjwmoiJuWho

Game 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Reo9p3g5CaU

Game 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXI9V8v1_fY

Game 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x30y9CUXRyU

Game 6: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FO-A8Yp3Xz0

I watched the ending of game 1 just now. What a disgrace this fool is. Taking his shoes off with 6.5 seconds to go only down 1.

On the previous defensive possession, David was trying to talk to him about some strategy as they were walking on to the court and you could see the 'I don't care' look on Rodmans face. And then he is the one who happens to leave Horry wide open. Idiot

I was 9yrs old when these games happened and I remember being so upset when the spurs lost but I did not realize what was going on with Rodman. I mean not to the full extent

[Spurs Brazil]

This might have been posted somewhere else, but for those who like to revisit the Rodman issue, here are flu or partial videos of the 1995 West Finals:

Game 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=savgYPCfKqg

Game 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjwmoiJuWho

Game 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Reo9p3g5CaU

Game 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXI9V8v1_fY

Game 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x30y9CUXRyU

Game 6: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FO-A8Yp3Xz0

I have those games in my old VCR, my 2nd season as Spurs fan

[Bartleby]

I watched the ending of game 1 just now. What a disgrace this fool is. Taking his shoes off with 6.5 seconds to go only down 1.

On the previous defensive possession, David was trying to talk to him about some strategy as they were walking on to the court and you could see the 'I don't care' look on Rodmans face. And then he is the one who happens to leave Horry wide open. Idiot

I was 9yrs old when these games happened and I remember being so upset when the spurs lost but I did not realize what was going on with Rodman. I mean not to the full extent

Rodman cared more about his rebounding numbers than guarding his man, which was too bad for the Spurs because he could be a really pesky defender when he wanted to.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Rodman is such a disgrace. Didn't need to be reminded of this series, but couldn't help clicking those youtube links. Disgraceful idiot.

[Maddog]

Rodman cared more about his rebounding numbers than guarding his man, which was too bad for the Spurs because he could be a really pesky defender when he wanted to.

It was particularly damning against the Rockets that year.
First they had a PF who could hit threes and the 3 point line that season was shorter...

[lefty]

dat bump