James Worthy: did he benefit from playing with Magic, or was he underrated?

[lefty]

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-VNT15mZuGZg/TWmvh5S0DpI/AAAAAAAAGfI/amOipbXGUps/James+Worthy+drives+past+Danny+Ainge+June+26+1986. jpg

[lefty]

Dennis Rodman:
I’m one of the best defensive players of all time and I couldn’t guard his ass. “No (bleep). He would be coming off a screen, and I’d be trying to figure out whether he was going over the top or underneath. Next thing I knew, he was at the rim. Now if we’d played those guys more, then I might have figured out how to guard his ass. But there was nothing but frustration with James Worthy. Clever, quick, a great player – he’s one of the few guys who flat pissed me off."

[Fabbs]

One benefit as being a pampered Laker is getting away with offensive fouls continually on one of his signature moves. He would get the ball at about the ft line where it meets the standing line. With back to basket and defender right up on him, he would spin and as he spun hook the defender with his off arm and slingshot towoards the basket. The hook would illegally stop the defender from rotating with him and also gave him pushoff momentum towards the hoop.

The no call was standard Laker bullshit during the Stern "Marketingtime-showtime" era.

Beyond that he was a fantastic finisher on the break. Defense was merely average but he had Cooper and Rambis and Stern to take up the lack.

[lefty]

He was good though

[Venti Quattro]

lol game 2, 1984 finals

[lefty]

lol game 2, 1984 finals
Shit happens

[PGDynasty24]

He was the number 1 pick for a reason, and on that 1982 squad with MJ he was probably the best player. Very underrated because there was so much talent around him.

[lefty]

He was the number 1 pick for a reason, and on that 1982 squad with MJ he was probably the best player. Very underrated because there was so much talent around him.
Good point


And man, the draft system was so shitty back then, how the fuck did they get the number 1 pick? :lol

[Ashy Larry]

lol game 2, 1984 finals


people do forget that he had, if I remember correctly, 22 points that game. Dude played his ass off but the bad pass to Henderson overshadowed a great game ........

I put the blame on Riley moreso. Have Magic on the floor instead of inbounding the ball.

[cantthinkofanything]

Yes and no. Sure he benefitted from playing with Magic. But I don't think he's underrated. He's in the Hall of Fame and was named to 7 consecutive All Star Games. During his playing days was widely regarded as one of the best in the league.
Where has he been underrated?

[Ashy Larry]

Good point


And man, the draft system was so shitty back then, how the fuck did they get the number 1 pick? :lol


The Lakers found themselves with an embarrassment of riches when, after winning the championship, they also ended up with the first overall pick in the 1982 NBA Draft. The situation was the result of a trade with Cleveland midway through the 1979-80 season, when the Lakers had sent Don Ford and a 1980 first-round pick (eventually Chad Kinch) to the Cavaliers for Butch Lee and their 1982 selection. Fortuitously for the Lakers, Cleveland had finished with the league's worst record in 1981-82, giving Los Angeles first crack at a talented crop of college players. It marked the first time in NBA history that a reigning champion held the No. 1 pick.

The Lakers used that pick to select forward James Worthy, who had just led North Carolina to the 1982 NCAA Championship. Worthy, Magic Johnson, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar would define the powerhouse Lakers teams of the 1980s. Worthy proved to be the perfect complement to both players, finishing on the break for Johnson and stepping out to the perimeter when Abdul-Jabbar needed room to maneuver inside.



Worthy's rookie year ended in disappointment, however. He suffered a broken leg in the last week of the regular season and had to watch the postseason from the sidelines. The Lakers, who had won the Pacific Division with a 58-24 record, advanced to the 1983 NBA Finals with early-round victories against Portland and San Antonio. But Los Angeles was no match for the Philadelphia 76ers, who had acquired Moses Malone before the season. The Sixers won the series and the championship in four straight games.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

One of the few Lakers I actually liked.

[Giuseppe]

The Celtics came for his ass and tried to end him. Magic though had showed Worthy the way out. And in the '87 Finals Worthy exacted his vengeance on them.

[Giuseppe]

people do forget that he had, if I remember correctly, 22 points that game. Dude played his ass off but the bad pass to Henderson overshadowed a great game ........

I put the blame on Riley moreso. Have Magic on the floor instead of inbounding the ball.

Then the Celtics get happy, pull Seattle's pants down by sending Henderson up there and drafting Bias with that pick.

Uh, uh.

No.

[LkrFan]

Dennis Rodman:

I’m one of the best defensive players of all time and I couldn’t guard his ass. “No (bleep). He would be coming off a screen, and I’d be trying to figure out whether he was going over the top or underneath. Next thing I knew, he was at the rim. Now if we’d played those guys more, then I might have figured out how to guard his ass. But there was nothing but frustration with James Worthy. Clever, quick, a great player – he’s one of the few guys who flat pissed me off."


The Worm said that? :wow What a compliment. This coming from the greatest defensive PF in NBA history so it carries a lot of weight.

To answer the OP, it was a little bit of both. He benefitted greatly from Magic but in many ways he was underrated because he played during the Bird era. He was great but not quite on Bird's level.

[Giuseppe]

But, Worthy was afraid. Innately so. Magic dragged him kicking & screaming to it, but, Worthy's fear never left him. I remember him crying immediately after receiving the '87 Finals MVP Award. Musburger was interviewing him and it was an emotional moment. Talking about getting back to California and being able to function there because he had a difficult time in Boston.

It was never anybody else except Magic. Magic learned from the sins of Wilt & West, el al, from their weaknesses and then put those lessons to use. He taught Worthy how to sustain. He taught Daddy how to get even. He taught Kobe how to come back from an '08. Magic faced & conquered his fears.

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

Good point


And man, the draft system was so shitty back then, how the fuck did they get the number 1 pick? :lol

It was far worse than the Gasol heist. Lakers gave up some dead wood named Don Ford, a white guy who couldn't jump, or play.


February 15, 1980: Traded by the Los Angeles Lakers (http://www.spurstalk.com/teams/LAL/1980.html) with a 1980 1st round draft pick (Chad Kinch (http://www.spurstalk.com/players/k/kinchch01.html)) to the Cleveland Cavaliers (http://www.spurstalk.com/teams/CLE/1980.html) for Butch Lee (http://www.spurstalk.com/players/l/leebu01.html) and a 1982 1st round draft pick (James Worthy (http://www.spurstalk.com/players/w/worthja01.html)).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/f/forddo01.html

Lakers passed on Dominique Wilkins and took Worthy. His stock was way up after those 1982 NCCA playoffs. I remember those well, I knew Worthy was headed for greatness, he was so fast on his drives to the hoop. His career did end early though, he retired at age 32. His shot was coming up short, and he wasn't as quick. Oh, Cully, Worthy got 1988 finals MVP against Pistons, not 1987 vs. Boston.

[Killakobe81]

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-VNT15mZuGZg/TWmvh5S0DpI/AAAAAAAAGfI/amOipbXGUps/James+Worthy+drives+past+Danny+Ainge+June+26+1986. jpg

Both. But i love the quote from Rodman. Dennis is right Worthy torched his ass in 1988-89 ...Even when Magic and Scott pulled hammies ...Worthy took rodman to school.

[lefty]

Yes and no. Sure he benefitted from playing with Magic. But I don't think he's underrated. He's in the Hall of Fame and was named to 7 consecutive All Star Games. During his playing days was widely regarded as one of the best in the league.
Where has he been underrated?

I don't mean underrated underrated, but I think he was greater than what his stats show - but in a stacked team, the numbers won't be optimal; Magic could have had higher numbers had he played on a not so stacked team


The Lakers found themselves with an embarrassment of riches when, after winning the championship, they also ended up with the first overall pick in the 1982 NBA Draft. The situation was the result of a trade with Cleveland midway through the 1979-80 season, when the Lakers had sent Don Ford and a 1980 first-round pick (eventually Chad Kinch) to the Cavaliers for Butch Lee and their 1982 selection. Fortuitously for the Lakers, Cleveland had finished with the league's worst record in 1981-82, giving Los Angeles first crack at a talented crop of college players. It marked the first time in NBA history that a reigning champion held the No. 1 pick.

The Lakers used that pick to select forward James Worthy, who had just led North Carolina to the 1982 NCAA Championship. Worthy, Magic Johnson, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar would define the powerhouse Lakers teams of the 1980s. Worthy proved to be the perfect complement to both players, finishing on the break for Johnson and stepping out to the perimeter when Abdul-Jabbar needed room to maneuver inside.



Worthy's rookie year ended in disappointment, however. He suffered a broken leg in the last week of the regular season and had to watch the postseason from the sidelines. The Lakers, who had won the Pacific Division with a 58-24 record, advanced to the 1983 NBA Finals with early-round victories against Portland and San Antonio. But Los Angeles was no match for the Philadelphia 76ers, who had acquired Moses Malone before the season. The Sixers won the series and the championship in four straight games.

Thanks


To answer the OP, it was a little bit of both. He benefitted greatly from Magic but in many ways he was underrated because he played during the Bird era. He was great but not quite on Bird's level.

Agreed

It was far worse than the Gasol heist. Lakers gave up some dead wood named Don Ford, a white guy who couldn't jump, or play.


February 15, 1980: Traded by the Los Angeles Lakers (http://www.spurstalk.com/teams/LAL/1980.html) with a 1980 1st round draft pick (Chad Kinch (http://www.spurstalk.com/players/k/kinchch01.html)) to the Cleveland Cavaliers (http://www.spurstalk.com/teams/CLE/1980.html) for Butch Lee (http://www.spurstalk.com/players/l/leebu01.html) and a 1982 1st round draft pick (James Worthy (http://www.spurstalk.com/players/w/worthja01.html)).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/f/forddo01.html

Lakers passed on Dominique Wilkins and took Worthy. His stock was way up after those 1982 NCCA playoffs. I remember those well, I knew Worthy was headed for greatness, he was so fast on his drives to the hoop. His career did end early though, he retired at age 32. His shot was coming up short, and he wasn't as quick. Oh, Cully, Worthy got 1988 finals MVP against Pistons, not 1987 vs. Boston.
Thanks

lol Cavs


Both. But i love the quote from Rodman. Dennis is right Worthy torched his ass in 1988-89 ...Even when Magic and Scott pulled hammies ...Worthy took rodman to school.
Especially in game 4, he scored 39 pts

[midnightpulp]

Vastly underrated. Would've been a number one on many other teams. For what it's worth, you can see a lot Worthy's game in Jordan's. Similar post moves, similar penetration style, and similar finishers. I'm sure at North Carolina, a freshman Michael Jordan was taking notes as he watched the elder Worthy play.

[cantthinkofanything]

I don't mean underrated underrated, but I think he was greater than what his stats show - but in a stacked team, the numbers won't be optimal; Magic could have had higher numbers had he played on a not so stacked team


I hear you. Don't get me wrong, I loved Worthy. But playing devil's advocate, was he really just another Scottie Pippen? Someone who seems like they can carry a team but when it gets down to it was better suited as a second (or third) banana.

[lefty]

I hear you. Don't get me wrong, I loved Worthy. But playing devil's advocate, was he really just another Scottie Pippen? Someone who seems like they can carry a team but when it gets down to it was better suited as a second (or third) banana.
Good question

But he did step up in big games: game 7 vs Detroit in 88, game 4 vs Detroit in 89 (they lost the series, but still stepped up big time in an elimination game - 39 pts), also game 5 of the 1st round vs Phoenix in 1993, tired old shit dirt bag Worthy had a stretch where he was unstoppable late in the 4th; really impressive (still lost the series, but the Suns were the better team)


But could he carry a team over a lon period of time? I guess we'll never know

Regarding Pippen, let's not forget the 93-94 season; the Bulls still won 55 games (the previous season with Mike they won 57 games) and almost knocked out the Knicks in the ECSF (if not for tat call in game 5)

[stretch]

overrated

[TDMVPDPOY]

Since he was drafted b4 wilkins, how would his career been if he wasnt drafted by the lakers or a stacked team, and compared that to wilkins, who had the better career or better player overall in the end?

[lefty]

Since he was drafted b4 wilkins, how would his career been if he wasnt drafted by the lakers or a stacked team, and compared that to wilkins, who had the better career or better player overall in the end?
Not sure if Dominique was a better player overall

[midnightpulp]

Not sure if Dominique was a better player overall

He wasn't 'Nique was primarily a slasher and didn't have a post game, like Worthy.

[lefty]

He wasn't 'Nique was primarily a slasher and didn't have a post game, like Worthy.
And Worthy was also a much better team defender

[cantthinkofanything]

Good question

But he did step up in big games: game 7 vs Detroit in 88, game 4 vs Detroit in 89 (they lost the series, but still stepped up big time in an elimination game - 39 pts), also game 5 of the 1st round vs Phoenix in 1993, tired old shit dirt bag Worthy had a stretch where he was unstoppable late in the 4th; really impressive (still lost the series, but the Suns were the better team)


But could he carry a team over a lon period of time? I guess we'll never know

Regarding Pippen, let's not forget the 93-94 season; the Bulls still won 55 games (the previous season with Mike they won 57 games) and almost knocked out the Knicks in the ECSF (if not for tat call in game 5)

Yeah. I do remember the stretch you're talking about. No doubt he could (and did) take over a game(s). I could be way off...it's been so long since I saw him play...but I have more memories of him benefitting from the Laker's run and gun than him creating his own shot. I don't think he was suited for carrying a team like Jordan or as the other poster brought up, Wilkins. But like you said, we'll never know. He may have been a good enough athltete and smart enough that he could have been able to make his game fit whatever the team circumstances needed.

All that being said, I don't know that many PF that I'd take over him.

[lefty]

All that being said, I don't know that many PF that I'd take over him.
Worthy is one the biggest matchup nightmares in the history of the game

At the 3 spot, he would use his size, at the 4 spot he would bamboozle McHale 1-on-1 with his quickness

[cantthinkofanything]

Worthy is one the biggest matchup nightmares in the history of the game

At the 3 spot, he would use his size, at the 4 spot he would bamboozle McHale 1-on-1 with his quickness

lol..."bamboozle"
good description

[Giuseppe]

Yeah. I do remember the stretch you're talking about. No doubt he could (and did) take over a game(s). I could be way off...it's been so long since I saw him play...but I have more memories of him benefitting from the Laker's run and gun than him creating his own shot. I don't think he was suited for carrying a team like Jordan or as the other poster brought up, Wilkins. But like you said, we'll never know. He may have been a good enough athltete and smart enough that he could have been able to make his game fit whatever the team circumstances needed.

All that being said, I don't know that many PF that I'd take over him.

He had the con after Magic retired and couldn't handle it. Worthy was a follower. He had the ultimate leader to lead him in Magic. Same with Byron Scott. Boston went after both Worthy & Scott, knowing full well they were the weak links. Tried to cut 'em out and end them. But, Magic wouldn't allow it. He ran herd over those two and Jabbar. Then later he did likewise to Daddy and Kobe.

I thought it was the end on that Tuesday night in June of '84. The Celtics whooping up with their towels laughing and mocking us at the other end of the benches. CBS pimping them continuously. Jabbar thought it was the end. West thought it just a continuation of a boundless nightmare. So did I. I never thought there'd be a way out, a way back from that calamity. Boston was convinced they'd ended us. That they'd destroyed Magic's psyche like they'd destroyed West & Wilt in a similar manner.

Uh, uh. No. Not that fuckin' time.

With jacks & timbers Magic started back down.

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

For what it's worth, the Celtics had no answer for James Worthy either, which is why they drafted Len Bias.

I have seen some video feed of Worthy in the last season or two. He works as a pre , half, and post game analyst for the Lakers on TV and seems to b e very knowledgable about the plays on the court.

He was in the shadow of Kareem and Magic in his prime, but he was a damn good player. A true top 50 NBA at 50 year player.

[Giuseppe]

He was in the shadow of Kareem and Magic in his prime, but he was a damn good player. A true top 50 NBA at 50 year player.

If he hadn't been under the auspices of Magic the Celtics woulda ate him alive.

[cantthinkofanything]

If he hadn't been under the auspices of Magic the Celtics woulda ate him alive.

tl/dr

[pass1st]

If he hadn't been under the auspices of Magic the Celtics woulda ate him alive.

Magic just orchestrated the team so he would be able to use his strengths better. Worthy would have been the same player, but more inconsistent without Magic. Most teams still couldn't find a definate answer for him.

[Venti Quattro]

Worthy was already good by only himself. Now you add Magic in the mix and you have a Top 50 caliber player over-all. He benefitted from Magic and he was an underrated player.

still can't forgive him for '84 though

[cobbler]

Can be summed up in the only 5 words Chuck Daley yelled before he turned his back and walked away in a 88 finals timeout.

"WORTHY WORTHY WORTHY WORTHY WORTHY!!!!!!!!"

[cobbler]

One benefit as being a pampered Laker is getting away with offensive fouls continually on one of his signature moves. He would get the ball at about the ft line where it meets the standing line. With back to basket and defender right up on him, he would spin and as he spun hook the defender with his off arm and slingshot towoards the basket. The hook would illegally stop the defender from rotating with him and also gave him pushoff momentum towards the hoop.

The no call was standard Laker bullshit during the Stern "Marketingtime-showtime" era.

Beyond that he was a fantastic finisher on the break. Defense was merely average but he had Cooper and Rambis and Stern to take up the lack.

Common move by all post players and never called until the recent pussification of the NBA. To suggest that Worthy was given special consideration for hooking when it was quite clear to everyone that his quickness is what separated him from his defender is just plain idiotic. He simply had the quickest low post spin move of any player ever.

But I can see where you would draw your conclusions with your history of pussification and idiocy. :toast

[Giuseppe]

Common move by all post players and never called until the recent pussification of the NBA. To suggest that Worthy was given special consideration for hooking when it was quite clear to everyone that his quickness is what separated him from his defender is just plain idiotic. He simply had the quickest low post spin move of any player ever.

But I can see where you would draw your conclusions with your history of pussification and idiocy. :toast

Cobby