Buck Harvey: How good are they? If they continue to press on [Archive]

T Park

06-14-2005, 02:43 AM

Buck Harvey: How good are they? If Spurs press on

DETROIT — Avery Johnson started to compare the Spurs' first championship team to these Spurs, and he stopped. He wanted to get one thing straight.

"I'd take Tony Parker over the point guard in 1999," AJ said. "Let's be honest."

He isn't sure about the rest, since these Finals aren't over yet. If the Pistons recover, these Spurs will be compared to last year's Spurs.

But that's what tonight is about, besides pushing Detroit to the brink. If the Spurs play as they have these past few weeks — combining the marvel that is Manu with Gregg Popovich's defense — how high do they rank in history?

To some, the Spurs might look no more exceptional than the 2003 champs. That group hiccupped through the playoffs, saved ultimately by Stephen Jackson and Steve Kerr, an odd pair of 3-point shooters.

These Spurs finished with 59 victories in the regular season, just one more than Johnson's Mavericks, and they ended as the second seed. They lost their first game in the playoffs, and then Seattle, without two of its best shooters, extended the Spurs to six games.

But there was a time earlier this season when the Spurs won games by an average margin that ranked with the best ever. Had Tim Duncan not fallen to injury, coincidentally in Detroit, how would the Spurs have finished?

With 65 victories? As the overwhelming favorite?

Johnson sees the other side. "If they had won 65 games," Johnson says, "who knows if they would have been this good."

Without Duncan around to "bail them out," Johnson says the Spurs grew into something else entirely. Parker and Manu Ginobili learned to live without a dominant big man, and others filled holes and became closer.

"Even though they lost some games then," Johnson said, "they won."

Then came some luck. The Spurs got whole again just in time for the playoffs, and surviving challenges from two rugged teams — Denver and Seattle — only made them stronger.

From Johnson: "They figured, 'Once we can piece this thing together, our experience with our core guys is so much greater, we know we can get it rolling.'"

Rolling is a good word. Ginobili found Duncan to close out the Sonics, and it was a playoff-altering moment that built belief. The Spurs knew they could make plays when it mattered, and since then the Spurs have been what they were in January, taking six of seven against the Suns and Pistons.

Why the defending champs should worry tonight: If the Spurs can win three road games in Phoenix, against a 62-win team, what else is possible?

For one, ending the Finals in Detroit. And if the Spurs do that, they will look a lot like the first Spurs title team.

Those Spurs went 15-2, sweeping both the Lakers and Blazers along the way. Johnson led an efficient if ponderous scheme, and he also threw in the final jumper to beat the Knicks.

Parker should have such a moment this week.

But Johnson doesn't want to even weigh the good and bad between point guards. "Tony talks in French and I talk in Cajun," Johnson said. "Who would you rather have?"

Johnson is more serious when rating the other matchups. For example, he says "This Pop is better. He's expanded his game, he has more experience. And he's a softy now."

Sean Elliott vs. Bruce Bowen? "They talk about Bowen playing great defense," Johnson said. "But I don't know if Sean wasn't as good."

Johnson naturally would take David Robinson of 1999 over Nazr Mohammed. "You couldn't drive on us then," he said.

As for the one who would try to drive no matter: "Ginobili is pretty special right now. In a basketball game, yeah, I'd maybe go with Manu. But in a fight? I'd want Mario Elie."

Surprisingly, Johnson would take the younger Duncan. "I haven't seen Tim play in the playoffs like he did then. What Tim did in the Finals against the Knicks was pretty special. If it's that Tim against this Tim, that Tim wins."

But is this Tim required to do as much? With better offensive players around, isn't Duncan better now because he can do less?

Johnson admits this: "There is more ball movement now. More versatility. And this team is deeper."

So who wins?

Johnson stopped there.

The answer depends on what happens this wee

T Park

06-14-2005, 02:46 AM

"I'd take Tony Parker over the point guard in 1999," AJ said. "Let's be honest."

That sound you just heard was the sound of Whottt's jaw dropping realizing alot of his arguement against Avery Johnson just went down the shitter.

timvp

06-14-2005, 02:47 AM

Avery Johnson is owed an apology by half of this forum.

Tek_XX

06-14-2005, 03:19 AM

for what?

T Park

06-14-2005, 03:24 AM

leave it to the ^^ to be dense.....

milkyway21

06-14-2005, 03:29 AM

"I'd take Tony Parker over the point guard in 1999," AJ said. "Let's be honest."

I'm WITH you, AJ. :D
Tony is faster & better. and can get us to the finals even with the only one of the remaining Twin Towers, who is not 100% healthy.

MaNuMaNiAc

06-14-2005, 03:38 AM

I'm WITH you, AJ. :D
Tony is faster & better. and can get us to the finals even with the only one of the remaining Twin Towers, who is not 100% healthy.
a little help from Manu

Tek_XX

06-14-2005, 03:44 AM

leave it to the ^^ to be dense.....

Do tell Mr. 14,000 posts, what am i being dense about?

whottt

06-14-2005, 07:35 AM

TPark and TimVP think AJ is owed an apology because he once talked shit about Tony Parker and now he realizes what a fool he was to do so...

I don't see any need to give AJ an apology...he still what he said originally. AJ was the one that owed the apology...in fact I think that is what he just tried to do. He owes more apologies.

I am still not sold on the little Hitler's sincerity though...

Sean Elliot's jersey retirement was basically a plea to accept AJ as a jersey retirement candidate...

The Spurs and their players are well aware of the fact that AJ isn't as popularly recieved as a jersey retirement candidate as our last two retirees were...they've all mentioned it. This could just be a little PR work...or it truly could be the realization that he was an idiot for trashign a player whose jock he isn't fit to carry.

I'll give AJ credit for the public gesture...he damn sure isn't getting an apology, because he did diss Parker for absolutely no reason other than shitheadedness...

If some guy murders someone and then comes out and says muder is wrong...you don't apologize for calling him a murderer.

Maybe it was Drob imagining in the paper what he could have done with Parker and Manu as his guards that woke AJ up and made him realize that he was the lucky one.

Keep it up AJ...there may still be hope for you.

Now all you have to do is comeout and say your jersey doesn't deserve to be retired and publicly offer Manu your #6. Then just maybe you'll be worthy of being the least deserving jersey retiree.

1Parker1

06-14-2005, 09:26 AM

What did AJ say about Parker exactly?

violentkitten

06-14-2005, 09:34 AM

what the fuck does avery johnson have to apologize about? who the fuck is that stupid?

Jimcs50

06-14-2005, 09:38 AM

Johnson sees the other side. "If they had won 65 games," Johnson says, "who knows if they would have been this good."

Without Duncan around to "bail them out," Johnson says the Spurs grew into something else entirely. Parker and Manu Ginobili learned to live without a dominant big man, and others filled holes and became closer.
Buck copied my Irony thread.

:flipoff

Jimcs50

06-14-2005, 09:53 AM

The 99 championship has an asterrisk, this one will not.

Nuff said.

MadDog73

06-14-2005, 10:02 AM

1999 Spurs vs 2005 Spurs?

I'd like to see Tim and David defend Manu. Seriously. I'm not even going to try and predict it, but it'd sure be fun to watch.

But for the record, I think the 2005 Spurs would run circles around the 1999 Spurs. Plus, 2005 Spurs have more 3-point shooters, no?

GoSpurs21

06-14-2005, 10:39 AM

fuck AJ. he is still overrated.

Although the 99 team won the championship the offense was terrible and not much fun to watch. I'll take the current Spurs who can play great at both ends of the court over the 99 team.

spurs_fan_in_exile

06-14-2005, 10:48 AM

Oh, for the folks wondering about the AJ/TP controversy, back in 2003 AJ said something to the effect of the Spurs "sending a boy to do a man's job" in regards to the Spurs point guard situation. Obviously, that didn't sit well with a lot of people. I personally thought it was a strange parallel to the '99 Stoudemire statement that no team could win it all with AJ at the point.

whottt

06-14-2005, 11:47 AM

http://img218.exs.cx/img218/4496/oc224ra.jpg

It was funny at the time...Manu didn't have a clue whose jersey it was and it was the Spurs that gave it to him...

And the Spurs and Pop knew it was AJ's jersey they were giving to him...

To quote Pop at the time: the last guy to wear that jersey hit a championship winning shot(this is way over glamourized by the way).

Then all the AJ nazis had a cow over it and acted like Manu was trying leech off the greatness of the little scrub. As they ripped the jersey out of his hands.

I think even at the time some elightened Spursfans like myself and AHF(on one of his smart days) were embarassed over the entire ordeal...and knew what a joke it was going to turn out to be...

IF anyone ever doubts that Manu is a total winner...remember that without even having a clue what he was doing...he nearly saved the franchise from the great mistake it will ever make...Retiring AJ's jersey.

Never send a scrub to do a worthy players job(up in the rafters)..

We ought to take a poll to see if Manu's jersey is more worthy of retirement already than AJ's...It is...but I just wonder how many Spurs fans realize it.

Marcus Bryant

06-14-2005, 11:50 AM

AJ was the first winner in SA.

mookie2001

06-14-2005, 11:54 AM

id the love matchup between duncans

DDS4

06-14-2005, 01:23 PM

Maybe this is AJ's way of recanting what he said earlier.

T Park

06-14-2005, 01:32 PM

without AJ there is no ring in 99.

But Whottt will continue to hate.

Its ok to hate AJ, but dont you dare hate on the stud Brenda Barry.

MadDog73

06-14-2005, 01:42 PM

http://img218.exs.cx/img218/4496/oc224ra.jpg

We ought to take a poll to see if Manu's jersey is more worthy of retirement already than AJ's...It is...but I just wonder how many Spurs fans realize it.

Amen to that.

Are we going to retire the entire 1999 roster? Is mario elie next?

Look, the 1999 Spurs team was great, it won the first Championship, and that should always be remembered.

But if you start retiring every players Jersey whose won a Championship in San Antonio, soon Gervin, Robinson and Elliot will be lost.

Let's save those retirement ceremonies for the truly great ones. AJ was great, but is he Robinson great? Gervin great?

I actually had a little problem with Sean Elliot's jersey being retired, but playing through what he went through, and the Memorial Day Miracle pretty much guaranteed him a spot.

I hope there won't be any more jersey's going up anytime soon, 'cause the next ones up should be Manu's and Tim's.

T Park

06-14-2005, 01:47 PM

I actually had a little problem with Sean Elliot's jersey being retired

20 points a game, multi all star, world champion, fantastic defender.

Nah he wasnt worth it. Get real.

You obviously werent around in the 90s for Sean Elliott.

ShoogarBear

06-14-2005, 01:48 PM

Let's save those retirement ceremonies for the truly great ones. AJ was great, but is he Robinson great? Gervin great?

No problem with that. But then you say this:

I hope there won't be any more jersey's going up anytime soon, 'cause the next ones up should be Manu's and Tim's.
Sorry, but if Manu's career ended today, he doesn't deserve a jersey retirement. He's had one good season, and two okay seasons with the Spurs. He needs at least 3-4 more high-level years before you can even talk start to talk about it.

Larry Kenon and Mike Mitchell right now deserve to have their jerseys retired more than Manu. Why is the standard being lowered for him?

tsb2000

06-14-2005, 01:59 PM

I think Ninja was great, but I still think retiring #32 was nothing more than a well-said "F-U" to one Karl Malone, who wouldn't / didn't sign in SA this year. The timing of the announcement came as Malone was still hemming and hawing about whether he was going to come back and if so, where he would play. IMO, the Spurs had waited long enough for him, and the retirement of #32 was their clear signal to Malone they were no longer interested. IMO, Elliott certainly deserved the retirement of his number, but if Malone had signed, all parties would have easily waited until next year.

T Park

06-14-2005, 02:01 PM

Sorry, but if Manu's career ended today, he doesn't deserve a jersey retirement. He's had one good season, and two okay seasons with the Spurs. He needs at least 3-4 more high-level years before you can even talk start to talk about it.

wich he will.

Im sure.

But I agree.

IMO, Elliott certainly deserved the retirement of his number, but if Malone had signed, all parties would have easily waited until next year

Disagree.

Marcus Bryant

06-14-2005, 02:03 PM

whottt nuts all over himself about Brent Fucking Barry but then Avery Johnson can't get any respect.

You know what?

Fuck whottt.

MadDog73

06-14-2005, 02:09 PM

Sorry, but if Manu's career ended today, he doesn't deserve a jersey retirement. He's had one good season, and two okay seasons with the Spurs. He needs at least 3-4 more high-level years before you can even talk start to talk about it.

Of course, I'm assuming that Manu will continue at this pace.

If he plays the way he is playing now, and retires with 3+ Rings (not unbelievable) then is there any way you CAN'T retire his number?

IF the Spurs win this year, Manu is a big reason why. And he'll already have one more ring than Elliot and AJ.

But, yeah, I'm counting Chickens from Eggs, so I better shut up now :oops

timvp

06-14-2005, 02:25 PM

Without AJ, Pop would have been fired a long time ago. That means Duncan would probably be in Orlando and Whottt would be cheering on the Portland Trailblazers and Brent Barry.

Interesting.

P.S.

I can't understand how Spurs fans disrespect the 1999 team. Every couple months, more and more Spurs fans diss it. Pretty soon, there is only going to be a couple of us Spurs fans who remember how hard the first championship was and how that team set the foundation for what the team is doing now.

P.P.S.

The 1999 team is still the best Spurs team ever.

Marcus Bryant

06-14-2005, 02:28 PM

Spurs fans dumping on the '99 title are like the boy made good who is ashamed to go visit his parents back in the old neighborhood.

F 'em.

samikeyp

06-14-2005, 02:28 PM

I can't understand how Spurs fans disrespect the 1999 team. Every couple months, more and more Spurs fans diss it. Pretty soon, there is only going to be a couple of us Spurs fans who remember how hard the first championship was and how that team set the foundation for what the team is doing now.

Amen.

those of us who sat through the Ice Age, the time that shall not be named (between Gervin leaving and Robinson's arrival) the two handed, behind the head pass to no-one, the meltdown against Run TMC in 91, and Rodman watching Horry hitting 3's in 95 will NEVER forget.

Spurminator

06-14-2005, 02:31 PM

It's about extreme opinions... The more titles the Spurs win, the more some fans will feel obligated to pick the "worst" of the Spurs Championship teams.

People complain about Stephen A. Smith and commentators of his ilk, then post the same kind of shit.

ShoogarBear

06-14-2005, 02:33 PM

Any Spur fan who disses the '99 team should be boiled alive.

That team took the playoffs by the throat and choked the living shit out of them.

It was like the first two games of this series extended to 15 games.

T Park

06-14-2005, 02:35 PM

The 99 Spurs team would beat this team in 4 games.

Easily.

T Park

06-14-2005, 02:36 PM

whottt nuts all over himself about Brent Fucking Barry but then Avery Johnson can't get any respect.

You know what?

Fuck whottt.

Word.

ShoogarBear

06-14-2005, 02:39 PM

This team? I dunno. But the '99 team would have whooped the '03 team.

Kori Ellis

06-14-2005, 02:39 PM

People complain about Stephen A. Smith and commentators of his ilk, then post the same kind of shit

Speaking of S.A.Smith, he said a lot of nice things about Bowen yesterday. He gave him props for his D, but the highlight was him saying that off the court Bowen is the best person in NBA.

So will Spurs fans hate him less now?

ShoogarBear

06-14-2005, 02:40 PM

So will Spurs fans hate him less now?
:lol Why spoil the fun?

whottt

06-14-2005, 02:40 PM

without AJ there is no ring in 99.

But Whottt will continue to hate.

Its ok to hate AJ, but dont you dare hate on the stud Brenda Barry.

Hate on Barry all you want...just stop calling the dude heartless or a choker...and comparing him to Hedo and Smitty...

Whatever his problems are they aren't that...and there's a season long trackrecord of stepping up in the 4th and with Duncan out and hitting big shots to prove that's not what his problem is.

I just don't like the choker tag...especially when it's undeserved.

As much as I hate AJ...I've never called him heartless or a choker...

And also...

#1. We aren't retiring Brent Barry's jersey...

#2. Brent Barry took less money to come here...as opposed to AJ taking more to leave.

#3. Brent Barry doesn't go around bullying and intimidating younger players for his former team that is going to retire his jersey...

Come to think of it...Derek Anderson and Dennis Rodman didn't do that.

Jimcs50

06-14-2005, 02:41 PM

Speaking of S.A.Smith, he said a lot of nice things about Bowen yesterday. He gave him props for his D, but the highlight was him saying that off the court Bowen is the best person in NBA.

So will Spurs fans hate him less now?

He said he knew him from his Philly days and he said that Bruce is the nicest human being that he has ever met.

T Park

06-14-2005, 02:42 PM

Brent Barry doesn't go around bullying and intimidating younger players for his former team that is going to retire his jersey

uhhh

ok......

T Park

06-14-2005, 02:43 PM

just stop calling the dude heartless or a choker...and comparing him to Hedo and Smitty

His performances in game 1 and 2 of the Finals were Steve Smith and Hedo esque.

So no, he will continue to be compared to them.

Spurminator

06-14-2005, 02:43 PM

Meh, that's like Sean Deveney saying David Robinson is a classy guy.

Big deal. The hate lives on! ;)

T Park

06-14-2005, 02:44 PM

So will Spurs fans hate him less now

uhh, no, the shit he said about David Robinson will overcome anything else.

Jimcs50

06-14-2005, 02:46 PM

WTF are we arguing about this?????

This is the Finals, the Spurs are on the brink of winning a championship.....

STFU, and carpe diem.

:rolleyes

Spurminator

06-14-2005, 02:50 PM

whottt

06-14-2005, 02:54 PM

His performances in game 1 and 2 of the Finals were Steve Smith and Hedo esque.

So no, he will continue to be compared to them.

He sucked in game 1 because he was trying to hard to play D to stay on the court...

He played fucking good in game 2. I don't care what his shooting PCT was...he played fucking good, he might have played the best D in the game other than Bowen and if he hadn't Pop wouldn't left him out there like that...He hustled his ass off...

I don't what games you guys are watching but Barry is not getting left open by the Pistons...Prince is staying on his ass.

Don't take it from me take it from Pop...when he left Barry out there during the close part of the game...

When he sent Barry and Horry out there and wanted more rebounding...he just said: "Brent and Robert, you guys know what to do".

That's ultimate vote of confidence from Pop...and he's been doing since the latter of half of the Denver series...we also haven't been choking leads since then...and I haven't been criticizing him.

T Park

06-14-2005, 02:55 PM

He wasnt that off in that column.

At the time, i agreed with what he said.

whottt

06-14-2005, 02:56 PM

BTW TPark...we didn't make the finals with Hedo or Smitty.

And Devin Brown and Glenn Robinson are not the guys that have been the mainstay of the perimeter rotation for the entire fucking playoffs. Barry is. He's been the only mainstay.

Pop is getting it now...why aren't you.

T Park

06-14-2005, 02:56 PM

He sucked in game 1 because he was trying to hard to play D to stay on the court

If that was him trying too hard, letting Lindsey Hunter blow by him, then Id hate to see it when hes focused on offense and not too much defense.

excuses excuses though.

ShoogarBear

06-14-2005, 02:58 PM

Peter May could write that this year's Spurs are the best team ever assembled and that Tim Duncan is the greatest player of all time, but he'll always be the guy who wrote this column (http://espn.go.com/nba/columns/may_peter/1224139.html).
Nice memory, Spurm. I remember that column. I think it was May who also called the Spurs "choking dogs" and an "embarrasment to the league" after the 2001 WCF (either May or Dan Shaugnessy or Bob Ryan).

Boston hate is mostly grounded in the feeling that they were the ones who were entitled to Tim Duncan.

boutons

06-14-2005, 03:01 PM

Brent simply isn't fast in lateral movement, but I've quit watching his defense, since he has been hustling his butt real good, getting his hands out, deflecting balls, catching deflections, pushing the fast break, shooting outlet pases, I think he's stepping up
LIKE IT WAS HIS FIRST FUCKING FINALS.

Now, I wish a couple of his 3Gs would drop, but that wouldn't be enough to keep him on the court without his all-around effort and play.

Spurminator

06-14-2005, 03:02 PM

Barry has been fine this series. He hasn't produced a whole lot, but he also hasn't been asked to or given the opportunity. I didn't think he got a lot of respect on the calls in Game 1, and he was a nice cog in Game 2 for the ball movement.

T Park

06-14-2005, 03:04 PM

the standards for Brent Barry have fallen dramatically obviously.

Spurminator

06-14-2005, 03:05 PM

I always thought the standard was too high to begin with.

T Park

06-14-2005, 03:05 PM

yeah,

I guess making wide open shots, was a little too much for Brent to handle.

whottt

06-14-2005, 03:07 PM

The Pistons are talking about doubling Manu...

They aren't going to double off of Duncan.

They aren't going to double off of Bowen after what he just did to them.

They aren't going to double off of Parker.

They haven't been leaving Horry very much and I don't expect that to change.

They aren't going to double off of Nazr...#1 because that would be Ben Wallace. #2. Nazr will o board and dunk on them if they do.

Barry will get open looks tonight if he gets PT with Manu. That's been a great combination all season and the usual cause of Barry's best games. I think he will have a good shooting game tonight. I think it's safe to say he will at least tie his best scoring game of the series :smokin

Spurminator

06-14-2005, 03:09 PM

He's only taken 4 all series... It's not like he's a liability out there.

timvp

06-14-2005, 03:13 PM

Spurminator

06-14-2005, 03:15 PM

They aren't going to double off of Bowen after what he just did to them.

I don't know, I think they might still be willing to gamble on Bowen... If not for the little hot streak at the end, his line would have looked pretty bad.

It's still probably their best bet, but that just shows you the lack of options defenses have against this team.

whottt

06-14-2005, 03:16 PM

yeah,

I guess making wide open shots, was a little too much for Brent to handle.

Yeah...because teams just always leave the 17th best 3 shooter in NBA history open all game long...especially after watching what he did to Phoenix.

Figure it out...

#1. Denver gambled on him in game 2. He burnt them. They didn't do it again.

#2. And this was the stupid criticism...Seattle fucking knew what he could do...they wanted him back remember? They don't think he's a choker, they don't he's a guy you dare to shoot. Only Spursfans and D'antoni are that stupid.

#3. The Pistons use less double teams than any team in the NBA and they are a grest perimeter defensive team. They don't disrespect what Barry can do...

Look at it this way...Stephen Jackson's worse shooting series of 03 was against the Lakers...but that was the series he had the most impact in...

You know why? Because Phil Jackson tested him during the regular season and Jax smoked their ass every time...he knew he couldn't leave Jack and that's the reason Duncan was so dominant against LA...

That is the same kind of impact Barry has...Only his being the 17 best 3 shooter in NBA history pretty much makes it a forgone conclusion that you don't leave him open on the perimeter.

Yeah he could force up some bad shots...but he's just as good at finding someone with a better shot usually closer to the basket...so why should he?

By the way...Barry's pussy passing combined with Manu's and Horry's is the reason Detroit's defense looked so slow the other night.

That lightning fast passing was the way we played at the beginning of the season...and that kind of offense cannot be stopped.

I give credit to Pop ;)

T Park

06-14-2005, 03:29 PM

whottt

06-14-2005, 03:33 PM

Barry has been scared to shoot a lot this series.

That's what you always say every time he doesn't take a lot of shots...I'll admit the guy is selective...

But I remember you saying he going to have a big scoring series against Phoenix...and expect what he did in game 1 to continue...

I sat there and told you that D'anotoni shouted on National TV that he didn't care who had the ball...to not leave Barry open again.

I said he wouldn't have another game close to that one....he didn't...

So what? He just wasn't scared in the biggest game of his life in game 1 on the road and he got scared in the rest of the series?

Luckily it hasn't hurt the Spurs because everyone else is playing well. But honestly, I've never seen a guy able to guard himself as well as Barry does.

That's a valid criticism...but if you notice...he does that when the game doesn't really matter(isn't tight)...he doesn't do that when our offense is struggling late in games...that's when he starts looking for his shot...you need to go back and watch every game this season.

Even if he's wide open, most of the time he won't face the basket and will drift toward defenders so when he catches the ball it doesn't appear that he's as wide open as he is.

You just have different definition of wide open...he doesn't shoot when a guy is running at him and there's a good reason for it...he usually the misses the fucking shot when he does.

Luckily, he's a pretty good passer (other than the times he gets nervous and throws stupid passes). Defensively, he's trying hard but has made Lindsey Hunter look like an All-Star at times.

Defensively he's spent more time guarding Prince than Hunter...what games are you watching.

samikeyp

06-14-2005, 03:35 PM

if they keep leaving him open...he will start hitting.

TwoHandJam

06-14-2005, 03:36 PM

Barry has been scared to shoot a lot this series. Luckily it hasn't hurt the Spurs because everyone else is playing well. But honestly, I've never seen a guy able to guard himself as well as Barry does. Even if he's wide open, most of the time he won't face the basket and will drift toward defenders so when he catches the ball it doesn't appear that he's as wide open as he is.

Luckily, he's a pretty good passer (other than the times he gets nervous and throws stupid passes). Defensively, he's trying hard but has made Lindsey Hunter look like an All-Star at times.C'mon timvp, now you're accusing Barry of drifting towards defenders so his number won't be called? Those words are tinged with some undeserved hate. I used to think Brent was scared to shoot when he passed up open shots but I'm really starting to believe that he's just very unselfish.

I've seen him hit too many pressure shots this season and postseason to believe that he's just scared. I've also seen him pass up a seemingly open shots on many occasions in regular season games with little or no pressure.

Barry didn't play an awesome game 2 but it was solid and his crisp passing really greased our offense. 5 assists and 2 steals is not too shabby. Had he hit his open looks he would have had a great game. I think he'll find his shot during this series. Hopefully tonight.

whottt

06-14-2005, 03:39 PM

TimVP makes one valid critcism of Barry...he does guard himself...

Basically if there's a man on him or running towards him he won't shoot....this is bad for Barry but it's good for Duncan and keeping guys off of him when Barry is on the court. If they keep a defender on him his shooting won't be a factor.

Some Spurs fans get offended at a guy not wanting to chuck up shots...I think it's one of the things that makes him a good player...he will take shots when the pressure is at it's highest and everyone else is struggling..he's done it all season...in fact I think that's the kind of shots he likes to take.

This guy is adrenaline freak...he plays his best at the times when it would be revealed if he was a choker or not.

T Park

06-14-2005, 03:42 PM

Had he hit his open looks he would have had a great game. I think he'll find his shot during this series. Hopefully tonight

Thats all Ive asked, take and make your wide fuckin open shots.

Do I have confidence in him tongiht??

Yes, I have confidence in his shot everytime he shoots, but 2 or 1 or 3 shots a game is bullshit.

violentkitten

06-14-2005, 03:44 PM

barry plays like a scared little girl sometimes. its been not too rare of an occurrence in this year's playoffs to see him get pressured and curl up into a little ball right on the fucking court. that is the most disturbing sight these eyes have seen in quite some time.

whottt

06-14-2005, 03:46 PM

Why the fuck do you guys want some guy out there shooting 2 -10 from 3 point range on a night the team is tearing it up from 3 point line?

What was wrong with our offense? It was hell of a lot better than it was in game 1 when Barry couldn't stay on the court.

Our offense was kicking ass....like it has all fucking season when Barry is on the court for more than 25 mins and getting to the handle the ball...

Our offense dominated Detroit and Barry was one of the reasons for it...the only times we have passed like that this season is when Barry was getting the ball...it's a contagious thing and the whole team picks up on that tempo. Just like the did during the best start in team history.

Like I already said...that quick passing is why Detroit looked so damn slow on their rotations.

And I think the passing was quick by design...I think it was a Spurs game plan to beat them with quick passing..because the transition isn't there.

timvp

06-14-2005, 03:48 PM

That's what you always say every time he doesn't take a lot of shots...I'll admit the guy is selective...

But I remember you saying he going to have a big scoring series against Phoenix...and expect what he did in game 1 to continue...

I sat there and told you that D'anotoni shouted on National TV that he didn't care who had the ball...to not leave Barry open again.

I said he wouldn't have another game close to that one....he didn't...

So what? He was just scared in the biggest game of his life in game 1 on the road and he got scared in the rest of the series?

He played well in every game that series. He came up huge in the first three games. Put Barry in a wide open series where teams run and defense isn't the main thing, and he's one of the best players in the leauge. That's why I said going into that series that he was going to be awesome.

But the same rule applies to this series. I said before it began that he would struggle and he has. For you being the Brent Barry expert, it's rather odd that I'm the one able to predict how he is going to play.

That's a valid criticism...but if you notice...he does that when the game doesn't really matter...he doesn't do that when our offense is struggling late in games...that's when he starts looking for his shot...you need to go back and watch every game this season.

I've watched every game this season and have watched each playoff game at least twice. What are you watching? Telling me to watch more Spurs game is like telling mouse to grow out his hair.

You know exactly what I'm talking about when I say Barry guards himself. A couple times this series he's drifted when he caught the ball just so he didn't have to take the shot. As a basketball player, I've done that myself when I don't want to take a shot. It's a common thing to do. You just don't see it that much on the NBA level with players who were born to shoot.

You just have different definition of wide open...he doesn't shoot when a guy is running at him and there's a good reason for it...he usually the misses the fucking shot when he does.

Pretty true. But against a team like the Pistons, you aren't going to have many chances with NO ONE running at you. It's not going to happen. Luckily the Spurs haven't needed him to hit a shot. If they do -- and they probably will, he's going to have to knock down some contested threes. The bad news is I don't remember a whole lot of contested threes that he's taken and made this season. You are correct about that. He's not a Jaren or Stephen Jackson who can shoot threes even if they are guarded.

Defensively he's spent more time guarding Prince than Hunter...what games are you watching.

What the hell are you watching? He hasn't guarded Prince that much. As I said before the series started, Pop has to match him up against Hunter and Pop has done just that. The only times he guards Prince is when he's switched or someone else is waiting to check in. If you notice, LB calls clearouts for anyone who Barry is guarding ... and even a couple times for freakin' Lindsey Hunter. Lindsey might be the worst offensive player in the league.

Barry tries on defense, I'll give him that. He knows he can't come out there and play no defense and expect to stay on the court. But to say he's been a good defender is crazy. The best I can say about him is he hasn't gotten burned more than five times a game. The couple times he's been switched off onto Rip Hamilton, Hamilton has feasted.

whottt

06-14-2005, 03:49 PM

I think it's funny that a bunch fucking AJ fans are ripping a guy for not shooting...

I know none of you fuckers are over 25...if you were you'd know that AJ took less open shots than any player in NBA history...

timvp

06-14-2005, 03:50 PM

C'mon timvp, now you're accusing Barry of drifting towards defenders so his number won't be called? Those words are tinged with some undeserved hate.

TimVP makes one valid critcism of Barry...he does guard himself...

TwoHandJam calls me out but then the ultimate Barry supporter backs me up.

Classic.

:smokin

violentkitten

06-14-2005, 03:54 PM

I know none of you fuckers are over 25...

then whats your excuse for your inability to understand what avery johnson brought to this franchise? fuck man AJ ate mentally soft bitches like your boy barry for breakfast and shit them out at four thirty.

whottt

06-14-2005, 04:03 PM

TimVP...you force me to rewatch game 2 to see just how much time Barry spent on Prince...He guarded Prince a lot in that game...

And Pop's been putting him more on the long SF's in the playoffs that he has the smaller point guards for virtually the entire playoff run...

You know why? Because he does a better job against the longer taller players than he does against the smaller guards...

And it's been that way all playoffs long...maybe you are right and that he does guard the smaller guards more...and did so in game 2...but it doesn't make any sense because he hasn't done a good job of that yet in these playoffs.

I mean I don't know what makes anyone think a 6'7 34 year old white guy is the man to call to keep a 6'2 PG type out of the paint...back up or not.

Whereas he has done a good job against the longer SF's...guys you wouldn't think he would do a good job on. This means Anthony, this means Lewis...against Phoenix he guarded Jackson mainly and somet time on Marion and he did a hell of a good job on Jackson by the way.

TwoHandJam

06-14-2005, 04:06 PM

TwoHandJam calls me out but then the ultimate Barry supporter backs me up.

Classic.

:smokin

:wtf

Here is what Whottt said:

TimVP makes one valid critcism of Barry...he does guard himself...

Basically if there's a man on him or running towards him he won't shoot....

Right. That's exactly like saying Barry drifts towards defenders. :rolleyes

whottt

06-14-2005, 04:06 PM

TwoHandJam calls me out but then the ultimate Barry supporter backs me up.

Classic.

:smokin

I didn't back you on saying he was heartless choker or scared to shoot...I backed you up on saying that he is sometimes an overly selective shooter...there's is a difference between deferring too much in the spirit of team play...and being a Hedo.

TwoHandJam agreed with both you and I on that point....Neither THJ or I think he is a choker...that's sets us apart from you.

I cannot adequately explain the total "wrong" that is being done to Barry when you guys stick that label on him...He's been arguably the clutchest player on our team this season...not the most heartless.

IT's just wrong...TimVP.

IT's like me saying AJ couldn't hit a layup to save his life...

violentkitten

06-14-2005, 04:06 PM

barry was useful against phoenix because the suns think perimeter defense is only something you play against....

whottt

06-14-2005, 04:19 PM

then whats your excuse for your inability to understand what avery johnson brought to this franchise? fuck man AJ ate mentally soft bitches like your boy barry for breakfast and shit them out at four thirty.

Translation: I am under 25 and AJ is a like a comic book hero to me.

I was a season ticketholder during the AJ years...I know how he played. I used to want to kick his ass after games. We had a fucking guy that could to the basket on anyone...what we didn't have was guys that were respected enough to keep people off of him.

And the unforgivable thing about it...

AJ never bothered to really try and improve his shot other than getting it to a range of about 14 feet...and it was something the team desperately needed him to do to make things easier on David...

I am not saying he had to turn into Steve Kerr...but he had to at least turn into a threat...becasue the sometimes the layups just aren't there. Usually they aren't when Drob's got 5 fucking Jazz on him...

Mario Elie had a worse shot than AJ did...Rudy told him to work on his shot...he turned himself into one of the clutchest 3 shooters I have ever seen...he never shot at a great PCT...but he hit the ones that stopped runs and broke the spirit of other teams...

Why couldn't AJ do that? Why didn't AJ do that? Just turn himself into a threat? Because he thought he was the total shit...that's why.

violentkitten

06-14-2005, 04:23 PM

lame argument. avery johnson is the type of player who kids today do not gravitate to.

unfortunately for you i saw plenty of avery johnson during the 90s and definitely understand what he brought to the team. while your boy david was banging around on the keyboard or cutting a riff on his sax avery was fucking leading that team and molding it into a team with one purpose and one purpose only and that was a nba championship.

dont hurt yourself when you stretch man.

timvp

06-14-2005, 04:25 PM

Whottt is in love with the three-point shot. Heal, Barry, Kerr, etc.

He's like the baseball fan who only cares how many home runs his favorite player has. And why the hell doesn't Otis Nixon hit more homers? They should trade his scrub ass for Rob Deer.

Yeah.

whottt

06-14-2005, 04:40 PM

I give AJ a free pass for being an offensive liability, a bully to younger players, belittling the team after I left, and trying to play head games with it's 20 year old PG and rookie SG. I'd also take Avery Johnson before David Robinson

Werd!

BTW...That baseball analogy sucked. I would take a high hit guy over a high BB guy though...

whottt

06-14-2005, 04:41 PM

Oh...

RIP The Spurs need a shooter.........every offseason for the last 20 years...or not.

If outside shooting doesn't matter then why are you guys ripping Barry?

violentkitten

06-14-2005, 04:42 PM

If outside shooting doesn't matter then why are you guys ripping Barry?

because that is supposedly his strength. duh.

whottt

06-14-2005, 04:44 PM

But outside shooting doesn't matter...

Free Pass Kitten.

violentkitten

06-14-2005, 04:44 PM

i take it up the ass and then suck it

boutons

06-14-2005, 04:45 PM

whottt

06-14-2005, 04:46 PM

I am a man that has exhibited charateristics of having multiple personalities, and that runs around on a basketball forum calling myself kitten and casting gay aspersions on others. You be the judge.

violentkitten

06-14-2005, 04:46 PM

But outside shooting doesn't matter...

bingo. what matters is playing good defense, taking care of the rock, and taking the shot when it is there, be it a 10 footer or a 23 footer. it also means going strong to the hole when the opportunity presents itself.

barry has been deficient in that regard in this playoffs and his outside shooting has sucked.

what part of that do you not understand you fucking blowhard?

whottt

06-14-2005, 04:47 PM

Haven't you been reading?
simply because Brent doesn't shoot enough,
doesn't shoot his wide-open shots.

I'd like to see him try some more slashing and driving, he's damn fast, and he drives through the basket unlike Tony's stop-and-2-flat-foot jump-shot "finish".

And what's AJ's excuse?

Nazr Mohammed has as many 3 pointers in these playoffs as AJ made in his entire playoff career.

Hypochrites.

violentkitten

06-14-2005, 04:49 PM

And what's AJ's excuse?

Nazr Mohammed has many as many 3 pointers in these playoffs as AJ made in his entire playoff career.

Hypochrites.

the problem for you is that avery did everything else exceptionally well, especially for his position, whereas barry has done nothing else well in this playoffs, including what is supposedly his strength.

i mean, how the fuck do you play 22 minutes and not scratch a boxscore?

:lol

whottt

06-14-2005, 04:53 PM

bingo. what matters is playing good defense,

That's not AJ.

taking care of the rock,

I'll give him that.

and taking the shot when it is there, be it a 10 footer or a 23 footer.

Won't give him that.

it also means going strong to the hole when the opportunity presents itself.

But never with the game on the line...and never being willing to draw enough contact to get to the FT line as much a guy whose game was based on penetration should.

barry has been deficient in that regard in this series and his outside shooting has sucked.

what part of that do you not understand you fucking blowhard?

The part where it is integral for every perimeter guy on this team to have the threat of an outside shot, but it wasn't for Avery Johnson...and how you fools don't think that was problem during the Drob era...

But then again...I think I even understand that now.. <25

smeagol

06-14-2005, 04:55 PM

20 points a game, multi all star, world champion, fantastic defender.
[/]When will the Americans stop considering themselves the center (or the entire) world? [/offtopic]

whottt

06-14-2005, 04:56 PM

the problem for you is that avery did everything else exceptionally well, especially for his position, whereas barry has done nothing else well in this playoffs, including what is supposedly his strength.

i mean, how the fuck do you play 22 minutes and not scratch a boxscore?

:lol

AJ wasn't a great defender...He wasn't a tough interior player...

He was good at passing to a guy that won a scoring title without him and getting layups(early in the game) off one of his teamates drawing mutiple defenders because he is being dared to shoot.

Derek Fisher punked AJ...AJ got punked a by rookie 10 years ago in the biggest game in Spurs history.

violentkitten

06-14-2005, 04:57 PM

there weren't any problems with avery's defense, especially when viewed in the same light as the defensive wonder that is bones barry.

avery was one of the best when it came to shot selection and he certainly was never shy about taking it to the hole. do you not recall his floaters in the lane off drives? wtf mr. season ticket holder?

lest we forget that avery was the leader of those teams while brent barry gives funny interviews...

violentkitten

06-14-2005, 05:01 PM

Derek Fisher punked AJ...AJ got punked a by rookie 10 years ago in the biggest game in Spurs history.

fisher wasn't in the league 10 years ago.

if you want to recall avery in the playoffs mr. season ticket holder then you surely remember the 1998 series versus the suns and kidd/kj/nash. he took all comers on in that series and smoked them.

try again.

ShoogarBear

06-14-2005, 05:02 PM

I think he meant Sam Cassell. Took me a while to figure it out.

violentkitten

06-14-2005, 05:04 PM

of course saint david cant be held accountable for being undressed by hakeem in that series...

violentkitten

06-14-2005, 05:17 PM

*whottt furiously hammers out a 10 pager*

whottt

06-14-2005, 05:17 PM

there weren't any problems with avery's defense, especially when viewed in the same light as the defensive wonder that is bones barry.

Wake me up when Barry gives up 35 points to a back up rookie or lets a scrub set a conference finals record against him in 3pt %.

John Stockton used to fuck AJ so many times per game he'd go through box of codoms by halftime.

avery was one of the best when it came to shot selection and he certainly was never shy about taking it to the hole. do you not recall his floaters in the lane off drives?

AJ was good at scooting to the basket until they clogged the paint and then he was next to useless...they'd dare him to shoot and he wouldn't. I mean legitimately dare him to shoot give him plenty of space....he wouldn't.

Ok you guys think Brent Barry is passing up a ton of open shots...

Now I hate to tell you guys this...but other teams didn't care that AJ wasn't a good shooter...they didn't consider it against the rules to dare him to shoot...

Whether you like it or not...they did dare him to shoot...

You guys honestly think AJ was only left open at the perimeter in his 100+ playoff games 26 times?

And you think Brent Barry is open out there all game long?

Sorry but you guys don't know what the hell you are talking about. Period.

Fucken homers.

Barry needs exactly 5 more threes to have made as many 3's in this post season as AJ took in a 19 year career..

Many of those years spent with two of the best bigmen to ever step foot on the basketball court...

Some day when you guys want to become smarter...go look at the PCT's of Duncan(after) and Robinson(before) without AJ as opposed to with him...then tell me he wasn't a huge liability.

Hint: Drob averaged shooting about 60% in the post season until AJ became his PG...he then turned into a "soft" sub 50% shooter once he got the little hardass to lead his team to some of the most embarassing asskickings in Conference Finals history...you figure it out.

violentkitten

06-14-2005, 05:19 PM

Wake me up when Barry gives up 35 points to a back up rookie or lets a scrub set a conference finals record against him in 3pt %.

fortunately the spurs dont have to be stuck with barry out on the court when he's sucking, especially thanks to the return of devin brown. man, to lose substantial minutes to a guy without your name and pedigree and with a bad back has to suck.

violentkitten

06-14-2005, 05:20 PM

so john stockton used to "fuck AJ."

and hakeem and the mailman used to do the same to david.

whottt

06-14-2005, 05:23 PM

I think he meant Sam Cassell. Took me a while to figure it out.

At least you figured it out...

Marcus couldn't because back then he had a pacifier in his mouth(which grew into a preference for having AJ's dick there).

violentkitten

06-14-2005, 05:24 PM

Fucken homers.

Barry needs exactly 5 more threes to have made as many 3's in this post season as AJ took in a 19 year career..

how about assists? how about free throw attempts? fuck man barry can't even excel at what he's supposed to be excelling at.

Many of those years spent with two of the best bigmen to ever step foot on the basketball court...

unfortunately for the great barry even playing with one doesn't seem to help his game.

Some day when you guys want to become smarter...go look at the PCT's of Duncan(after) and Robinson(before) without AJ as opposed to with him...then tell me he wasn't a huge liability.

:lol @ whottt claiming to be "smarter"

Hint: Drob averaged shooting about 60% in the post season until AJ became his PG...he then turned into a "soft" sub 50% shooter once he got the little hardass to lead his team to some of the most embarassing asskickings in Conference Finals history...you figure it out.

what about the asskicking administered to saint david in 1991? was that not his fault?