Manu top 5

[Big Pimp_21]

Sorry if this was posted but...

This morning they debated on Cold Pizza that Manu was a top 5 player in the NBA. Skip was (of course) building Manu up as the greatest player in the league and the most exciting. Then that idiot Woody Paige bashed Manu saying that Wade, LeBron, Ray Allen, Kobe, T-Mac, and a host of others were way better. I don't know if Manu is the best, but why do you think that players that are sitting at home are getting more respect than the guy who is in alot of ways responsible for where we are right now? Do you think Manu's success is just because of the team he's on, or would he do as well on a team like the Lakers or the Cavs? I would think that the guy is hands down one of the best...first he leads Argentina to the gold and now is on the verge of a finals MVP (neck and neck with TD, IMO). Id the bias because of the fact that he's not from the hood?

[violentkitten]

counterargument: duncan, tim

put ray allen on a team with tim duncan and he would look like Jesus without the last name.

[Phenomanul]

counterargument: duncan, tim

put ray allen on a team with tim duncan and he would look like Jesus without the last name.


Mouse you have outdone yourself.... :lol :lol

[WalterBenitez]

Not sure if Manu is a top 5, but he is really good and the most important he's dressing Spurs’ jersey.

Individual skills are one issue, how could you argue against that Manu is better than Kobe, Tmac, etc.

Fundamental skills ...no way to compare Manu with TIM

In my opinion, is how do you positive impact in your team, and in this key issue Manu is a monster, I saw him in many international games, when the game was on the line and he simply decided "I wont let this team lose" and in some cases Manu transmits his enthusiasm to everybody, in those games Manu is the most.

[Kori Ellis]

Mouse you have outdone yourself.... :lol :lol

violent kitten isn't Mouse. :wtf

[violentkitten]

someone didnt just call me mouse, did they?

purrrrrrrrrrrr

[Medvedenko]

Fundamental and Manu in the same sentence.....sure....Manu top 5...yes Top five guards in the West. I love Manu....he's the only reason I still post on this site, and cheer begrudgenly for the hapless spurs. Having a good playoff run once in his career isn't going to make him better than the Jordan's, Shaq's, TD's and Kobe's of the past decade. Yes he's good....but please everyone take some reality pills. Like VK said...you put Ray Allen on the Spurs and they would win as well....you put Kobe on this team and you should just end the NBA. Having Kobe with TP and TD in the system that Pop runs....scary good.

[violentkitten]

while i wouldnt put manu on a top 5 level overall, i would definitely put him on the 'top 5 guys you want on your team if it is a playoff game' list.

then again, perhaps that should be the yardstick for ranking players, whether or not they show up when playoff series and championships are on the line...robert horry is definitely on the short list too.

fortunately the spurs have manu in his prime and locked up for the next 5 seasons. maybe they can cryogenically freeze robert horry and defrost him before the next playoffs...

[Big Pimp_21]

Manu's not as flashy as Kobe or T-Mac, but he's just as capable of going off on any given night. Plus, he pulls some circus shots out of his ass just like the others. The difference is that Manu doesn't draw attention to himself. He went around screaming that he was the greatest and beating his chest after every dunk or jumper, maybe he'd be more respected.

[Jimcs50]

Manu is Top 10 player

[Medvedenko]

Manu's not as flashy as Kobe or T-Mac, but he's just as capable of going off on any given night. Plus, he pulls some circus shots out of his ass just like the others. The difference is that Manu doesn't draw attention to himself. He went around screaming that he was the greatest and beating his chest after every dunk or jumper, maybe he'd be more respected.

he's not as flashy..hell most of his "circus" shots and crazy ass play is all flash...he's just figuring out the substance that goes on with it....it took him a few years to get into a groove with this team. I like his demeanor and he's all about winning first, not just promoting himself...most NBA players should look to this. Oh, I don't think he's capable of going off on any night....he's not built for it, plus he can't even play the heavy minutes like those players. Obviously, POP has him on a leash.

[vanvannen]

I don't think Manu is at that level. He lacks the skills of a Lebron, Kobe, T Mac or the shooting touch of Ray Ray, etc.
I guess Manu would have gone as far as Kobe with those Lakers (it can't get worse). Of course playing with TD is a hell of a brake. Don't get this wrong, Manu is great but the only one Superstar on this team is Timmy.
Manu would never be as effective if the other team's defense went after him as they do with Kobe, Lebron, etc.
Manu is a team player. He succeeds playing team ball. That's the beauty of his game.

[WalterBenitez]

while i wouldnt put manu on a top 5 level overall, i would definitely put him on the 'top 5 guys you want on your team if it is a playoff game' list.

I DO AGREE :king



fortunately the spurs have manu in his prime and locked up for the next 5 seasons. maybe they can cryogenically freeze robert horry and defrost him before the next playoffs...

COULD WE? :rolleyes

[Medvedenko]

Manu's top 10 in the playoffs.....

[Phenomanul]

someone didnt just call me mouse, did they?

purrrrrrrrrrrr


my bad... I thought your name showed up on that thread where we tried to figure out all of Mouse's aliases.

[cmc$purs]

Woody paige = :idiot
he has picked against the SPURS these playoffs :flipoff
I want to see him eat crow

[Marcus Bryant]

Manu's top 10 in the playoffs.....

Manu's top 2 in these playoffs...

[Phenomanul]

Manu's top 2 in these playoffs...


I second that motion.... he has been the most efficient, most clutch, and has sustained a high level of productivity....

[Medvedenko]

Let's not forget....Chauncy Billups was Top 2 in the playoffs last year.....big deal that is.

[Big Pimp_21]

What i meant by not as flashy is that he doesn't draw the attention that a Kobe or T-Mac does. He goes out, plays his game, and wins. He's the only All-Star I know (besides TD) that would accept a role off the bench in the NBA playoffs. He's not an attention whore like the rest.

[Dartherus]

Fundamental and Manu in the same sentence.....sure....Manu top 5...yes Top five guards in the West. I love Manu....he's the only reason I still post on this site, and cheer begrudgenly for the hapless spurs. Having a good playoff run once in his career isn't going to make him better than the Jordan's, Shaq's, TD's and Kobe's of the past decade. Yes he's good....but please everyone take some reality pills. Like VK said...you put Ray Allen on the Spurs and they would win as well....you put Kobe on this team and you should just end the NBA. Having Kobe with TP and TD in the system that Pop runs....scary good.
I'm not that sure that putting a more fancy individualist like Kobe would improve Spurs....
Perhaps it's true that Kobe is more individually skilled than Manu (IMO, not that much as hyped), BUT (a big but, like a Jlo's one) Manu is waaaay more a team player...Kobe's selfish attitude could even harm Spurs performance.

BTW, you say in other teams Manu would lower his performance, perhaps he'd have less company (would miss Tim&Tony) but OTOH, he'd also would have more shoots to make, and his overall stats would improve, cause he wouldn't have to share the ball as much as he does in Spurs...I guess the point is simple, check if player's stats improve or not when they go from a strong team to a weak team and viceversa.

[Marcus Bryant]

Well, he's drawing some attention now. The only way you could really compare Manu v. Kobe or McGrady is to see how Manu would fare if he was a team's #1 option for an entire season...

[Medvedenko]

Big Pimp....
While I appreciate your passion of the Manu...I heard Iverson would take a bench role given the right situation....ok I'm joking....Look I appreciate Manu, I really do...but I feel Pop has the reigns on the team, hence the demeanor is translated...look at Big Dog....

[ShoogarBear]

my bad... I thought your name showed up on that thread where we tried to figure out all of Mouse's aliases.
:lmao

MB OWN3D himself!

[benjirh]

I think the best way to determine this is the old "who would you take scenario". Let's say the NBA decides to throw everyone in a pot and do a draft, how will you draft in the first round? As much as I love Manu, here are the list of the guys I would take over him and why.

Timmy - obvious
Shaq - As much as you hate him, you cannot argue with his size and ability
Garnett - Great big men are harder to find than great guards
Stoudamire - Amazing and hasn't even matured yet
Lebron - Great size, Great scorer, Great team player, Great potential

In the mix with Manu:
Wade - Very, very good and is much younger
McGrady - Can score, all spurs fans know that all too well
Bryant - Forget the attitude, you can't deny how good he is
Iverson - Can score, has heart, and will pass to those he trusts to score
Dirk Diggler - A very versatile big man.

So my call is that Manu is top 10, but is possibly on the verge of being top 5. Give him another year. If he produces like he has during the playoffs for the entire season then he is fighting for top 3.

[ShoogarBear]

he's the only reason I still post on this site, and cheer begrudgenly for the hapless spurs.
"Hapless"?

http://www.sworddragon.com/passions/images/montoya2.jpg

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

Now the team that traded away a three-time Finals MVP for loose change and pocket lint? Now that's hapless.

[Dartherus]

I think the best way to determine this is the old "who would you take scenario". Let's say the NBA decides to throw everyone in a pot and do a draft, how will you draft in the first round? As much as I love Manu, here are the list of the guys I would take over him and why.

Timmy - obvious
Shaq - As much as you hate him, you cannot argue with his size and ability
Garnett - Great big men are harder to find than great guards
Stoudamire - Amazing and hasn't even matured yet
Lebron - Great size, Great scorer, Great team player, Great potential

In the mix with Manu:
Wade - Very, very good and is much younger
McGrady - Can score, all spurs fans know that all too well
Bryant - Forget the attitude, you can't deny how good he is
Iverson - Can score, has heart, and will pass to those he trusts to score
Dirk Diggler - A very versatile big man.

So my call is that Manu is top 10, but is possibly on the verge of being top 5. Give him another year. If he produces like he has during the playoffs for the entire season then he is fighting for top 3.
IMO TMac is at least one level ahead Dirk, since a long time ago I hadn't seen that superiority in a particular one on one duel like the one seen in Hou-Dallas series, where TMac showed he can't only score, but also be a great defender (He guarded Dirk in agreat way, don't u think)?

[Big Pimp_21]

Pop does have the reigns on the team, but I also think the players have to have the confidence and attitude to buy into it. Manu could have easily bitched in media when he got benched for Barry or even demanded a trade, but he doesn't seek that sort of individual attention. Pop is great at selling his philosphy to his players, but he has the type of players who don't care about themselves as much as they do the team and the championships.

[MiNuS]

Manu is definitely top 5 THIS year. Manu like before is not first option throughout the year.He was in many instances the 2 or 3 option.
During the play-offs he has taken it to a whole other level where he IS
top 2 . He is right there with Tim in scoring,FTA,he leads the Spurs in 3 pta and %,steals,and is right there with Tony in assists.
He is not 1st option like Kobe,Ray,Iverson,or TMac.
Manu is a creator,distributor,and is totally unselfish. All of the above have to shoot alot of balls to score high.Ginobili is effecient as they come.

Hey he got the GOLD doesn't he? He beat all those guys Duncan & Co in Athens. He score something like 28 points against the US in their victory.
Iverson did NOTHING and he had Duncan on his side! AND Ginobili had Scola.

[Medvedenko]

Yes the elusive Gold medal...I guess Carlos Arroya who worked the US team is all NBA as well....

[Ginofan]

while i wouldnt put manu on a top 5 level overall, i would definitely put him on the 'top 5 guys you want on your team if it is a playoff game' list.


That's are really good way to put things, I totally agree.

Manu is not a top 5 NBA player, but he's definitely up there. And Tim makes anyone better, but I can't see Manu failing on any team he was put on.

[benjirh]

IMO TMac is at least one level ahead Dirk, since a long time ago I hadn't seen that superiority in a particular one on one duel like the one seen in Hou-Dallas series, where TMac showed he can't only score, but also be a great defender (He guarded Dirk in agreat way, don't u think)?

Depends on how many "levels" you have. Yes, TMac outplayed Dirk in their series, but I think talent wise they are pretty close to each other.

[MiNuS]

The whole Tim makes anyone better is not entirely true. Last year noone was made better.Three years the Lakers went to win the finals noone was made better.

Then enters the side kick=Manu. Even Pippen couldn't make it to the Finals those two years Jordan was out.More recently Kobe without Shaq.


If anything Manu has to be a top 5 sidekick FOR SURE!

Duncan & Manu
Shaq(healthy) & Wade
Amare & Nash
Ming & TMac

He compliments Duncan alot more than Parker (this year). Parker hasn't peaked,I hope.

[mavsfan1000]

I put Manu in the top 5 at shooting guard but only if T. Mac and L. James are at SF.

[Medvedenko]

Top 5 1-2 punch...yes for sure....Spurs are more of a team than just 2 players...man they have impressed me in the finals.

[ZStomp]

I love Manu but he is not a Top 5 player

[manubili]

I love Manu but he is not a Top 5 player

I agree. I think he STILL isn't top 5. Let's see how he keeps playing. I don't see his ceiling still, so if he continues improving, well, I don't know. He has been improving since he came to SA.

Timmy D may be a real help for manu, but also a shadow over him. In any other team, without TD, Manu may have stepped way more. Take the Argentinean Team in the olympics for example. 29 points against US, and ok, US team wasn't a hell of a team, but still... iverson, allen, TD... Larry Brown and Pop, well...

We might never know, because Manu feels ok playing as he plays now, in this great team.

I guess we'll have to keep enjoying our team, and just let the individualities besides. Just like our players do.

enjoy

[Phenomanul]

Top 5 1-2 punch...yes for sure....Spurs are more of a team than just 2 players...man they have impressed me in the finals.


Medvedenko...

Two questions...
1) What happened to your "Slava Hot Like Lava" slogan, I thought it was "true" to you?
2) Why do you have your team as the Pistons and not the Lakers...?

[ShoogarBear]

2) Why do you have your team as the Pistons and not the Lakers...?
Ha, I didn't even notice that.

Pretty weak, Med.

:smokin

[Rick Von Braun]

counterargument: duncan, tim

put ray allen on a team with tim duncan and he would look like Jesus without the last name. I actually disagree with you Matt.

Without getting into salary issues, trades, cap, etc etc,
and assuming this scenario is realistic, your reasoning assumes that you build teams like legos, and the players' expected performances are exactly or similar as they are with their current teams. Nothing further from the truth.

It goes along the lines of... Ray Allen is a great shooter, we play inside out, when other teams double team TD, Ray Allen will make them pay with his jumpshot. He would be awesome!

I heard similar things when Brent Barry became a Spurs not so long ago (and I am not comparing them, but I hope you catch my gist). Brent is a very intelligent basketball player with a soft touch and good guy. It was supposed that Tim Duncan would make him even better, right? All his numbers are down, he couldn't adapt to the current Spurs' system. What makes you believe any player can play under the current system and conditions?

What most people fail to realize is that Ray Allen needs the ball in his hands to be effective and a large number of FGA/g. In the last 3 years Allen has taken:

year FGA/g FG% 3P%
02-03 18.17 .439 .377
03-04 18.16 .440 .392
04-05 19.15 .428 .376

In this playoffs, Ray has taken:
year FGA/g FG% 3P%
04-05 19.54 .474 .378

If you expect Ray Allen to take a lesser role, you don't know him. I do not expect him to significantly reduce his touches. This implies two things...

1) Either Tony Parker drastically reduce the number of touches he gets.

2) The Spurs completely change their offense (increase the pace) to allow an increase on the number attempt per game (we become a running team).

Tim takes 18.22 FGA/g and Tony 16.5 FGA/g. They both take the most FGA/g on the Spurs team. People still don't realize that Manu is having this increadible run while taking only 12.5 FGA/g and without significantly changing the Spurs offense. This is what is the most remarkable aspect of his performance, and I can guarantee that NO other player in the league can perform as well as he had in the playoffs with the limited touches and role given to him by Pop. NONE!

[Dartherus]

Depends on how many "levels" you have. Yes, TMac outplayed Dirk in their series, but I think talent wise they are pretty close to each other.
Perhaps true in offense, but what about deffense? Isn't TMac a WAAAAY better defensive player? shouldn't that fact: beeing at least as good in offense (IMO, TMac is better) and beeing much better in deffense...shouldn't it grant TMac a clear edge?

[ShoogarBear]

Perhaps true in offense, but what about deffense? Isn't TMac a WAAAAY better defensive player? shouldn't that fact: beeing at least as good in offense (IMO, TMac is better) and beeing much better in deffense...shouldn't it grant TMac a clear edge?T-Mac is probably a marginally better defensive player over his career, but neither one has been any great shakes.

If Dirk actually starts applying himself like he says he's going to (and like AJ promises he has to if he wants PT), then I think he's got the talent to be a decent defender, and probably better overall than T-Mac.

But really, those guys play two different positions, so I don't completely get the point of comparing them.

[bigbendbruisebrother]

I actually disagree with you Matt.

Without getting into salary issues, trades, cap, etc etc,
and assuming this scenario is realistic, your reasoning assumes that you build teams like legos, and the players' expected performances are exactly or similar as they are with their current teams. Nothing further from the truth.

It goes along the lines of... Ray Allen is a great shooter, we play inside out, when other teams double team TD, Ray Allen will make them pay with his jumpshot. He would be awesome!

I heard similar things when Brent Barry became a Spurs not so long ago (and I am not comparing them, but I hope you catch my gist). Brent is a very intelligent basketball player with a soft touch and good guy. It was supposed that Tim Duncan would make him even better, right? All his numbers are down, he couldn't adapt to the current Spurs' system. What makes you believe any player can play under the current system and conditions?

What most people fail to realize is that Ray Allen needs the ball in his hands to be effective and a large number of FGA/g. In the last 3 years Allen has taken:

year FGA/g FG% 3P%
02-03 18.17 .439 .377
03-04 18.16 .440 .392
04-05 19.15 .428 .376

In this playoffs, Ray has taken:
year FGA/g FG% 3P%
04-05 19.54 .474 .378

If you expect Ray Allen to take a lesser role, you don't know him. I do not expect him to significantly reduce his touches. This implies two things...

1) Either Tony Parker drastically reduce the number of touches he gets.

2) The Spurs completely change their offense (increase the pace) to allow an increase on the number attempt per game (we become a running team).

Tim takes 18.22 FGA/g and Tony 16.5 FGA/g. They both take the most FGA/g on the Spurs team. People still don't realize that Manu is having this increadible run while taking only 12.5 FGA/g and without significantly changing the Spurs offense. This is what is the most remarkable aspect of his performance, and I can guarantee that NO other player in the league can perform as well as he had in the playoffs with the limited touches and role given to him by Pop. NONE!

Excellent post. That's the thing--Manu is efficient and effective.

PS Violent Kitten is a boy?

[nkdlunch]

Manu is top 5 guard in the league. No doubt

[JamStone]

Manu is quickly approaching elite level status. I'm not sold he's quite there yet, but it's awfully close. With the way positions have been blurred in today's NBA, it's often times hard to categorize and even rank players by position. Is LeBron a shooting guard or a small forward? Is Andrei Kirilenko a small forward or a power forward? Is Allen Iverson a point or a shooting guard? Is Duncan a center or power forward?

I think it's especially difficult to distinguish between wing players these days. Many of the top level wing players play BOTH the shooting guard and small forward spots. Vince, LeBron, T-Mac, Pierce, Jefferson, Artest, Maggette, Manu. In reality and in their respective teams' systems, the 2 and the 3 positions are basically interchangeable.

Ranking players by position is another result of our Fantasy Sports generation. When basketball first became heavily popular, with the exception of the position "center," it was just about "players." Jerry West and Oscar Robertson and Clyde were not designated "point guard" or "shooting guard." They were just "GUARDS." And, even in the 80s, players began to buck the trends or conformed notions of positions. Magic Johnson was a 6-foot-8 point guard who often defended the small forward position. Bernard King was a power forward who shot 12 foot baseline jumpshots. Larry Bird acted as a "point forward." MJ and Pippen were the 2 and 3 in the Bulls' offense but both did the majority of the ball handling and brought up the ball, while the "point guard" (Kerr, Paxson, and Armstrong) were spot up shooters. Kevin Garnett and Lamar Odom can play ALL FIVE positions.

I know I got off on a tagent. But, my point is that MANU GINOBILI is just a PLAYER. He's amazing. And, if you can just appreciate him for that and for being a winner, a leader, and just a truly gifted athlete, does ranking him against T-Mac, Kobe, Iverson, et al really matter?

[TwoHandJam]

Nice post JamStone.

[Dartherus]

T-Mac is probably a marginally better defensive player over his career, but neither one has been any great shakes.

If Dirk actually starts applying himself like he says he's going to (and like AJ promises he has to if he wants PT), then I think he's got the talent to be a decent defender, and probably better overall than T-Mac.

But really, those guys play two different positions, so I don't completely get the point of comparing them.
Despite playing different positions TMac was able to guard Dirk quite well...did you see the games? it was noticeable IMO.
Dirk can promise a lot, but he never showed to be a good deffensive player, while TMac has already showed he can play defense, and he can be at least as good as Dirk in offense...that's why I consider TMac a clearly better player, until Dirk proves he can play D, at least.

[Frenchise player]

I actually disagree with you Matt.

Without getting into salary issues, trades, cap, etc etc,
and assuming this scenario is realistic, your reasoning assumes that you build teams like legos, and the players' expected performances are exactly or similar as they are with their current teams. Nothing further from the truth.

It goes along the lines of... Ray Allen is a great shooter, we play inside out, when other teams double team TD, Ray Allen will make them pay with his jumpshot. He would be awesome!

I heard similar things when Brent Barry became a Spurs not so long ago (and I am not comparing them, but I hope you catch my gist). Brent is a very intelligent basketball player with a soft touch and good guy. It was supposed that Tim Duncan would make him even better, right? All his numbers are down, he couldn't adapt to the current Spurs' system. What makes you believe any player can play under the current system and conditions?

What most people fail to realize is that Ray Allen needs the ball in his hands to be effective and a large number of FGA/g. In the last 3 years Allen has taken:

year FGA/g FG% 3P%
02-03 18.17 .439 .377
03-04 18.16 .440 .392
04-05 19.15 .428 .376

In this playoffs, Ray has taken:
year FGA/g FG% 3P%
04-05 19.54 .474 .378

If you expect Ray Allen to take a lesser role, you don't know him. I do not expect him to significantly reduce his touches. This implies two things...

1) Either Tony Parker drastically reduce the number of touches he gets.

2) The Spurs completely change their offense (increase the pace) to allow an increase on the number attempt per game (we become a running team).

Tim takes 18.22 FGA/g and Tony 16.5 FGA/g. They both take the most FGA/g on the Spurs team. People still don't realize that Manu is having this increadible run while taking only 12.5 FGA/g and without significantly changing the Spurs offense. This is what is the most remarkable aspect of his performance, and I can guarantee that NO other player in the league can perform as well as he had in the playoffs with the limited touches and role given to him by Pop. NONE!

I don't agree with the way you count "touches".
While Manu shoots only 12.5 FG/g, he also shoots a lot of free throws and when you shoot free throws you are also giving back the ball to the opponent.
That's why I think you should use more point per possession stats than points per shots. Manu is shooting a lot of free throws and that's one reason why he has such an amazing point per shot average.

[violentkitten]

Excellent post. That's the thing--Manu is efficient and effective.

PS Violent Kitten is a boy?

ps are you an anglo?

[Medvedenko]

I'm just playing with you changing my team from La to Detroit...just to add some piss into the fire....I still bleed purple and gold...oh and slava is hot like lava....redemption year 2005-2006

[violentkitten]

play with yourself all you want. nobody cares.

[MadDog73]

I'm just playing with you changing my team from La to Detroit...just to add some piss into the fire....I still bleed purple and gold...oh and slava is hot like lava....redemption year 2005-2006


Can we really trust someone's opinion of Manu if that person thinks "slava is hot like lava" !?! (Man, that hurt just typing it).

[smeagol]

Tim makes anyone better
This is true in many cases but not always (see Brent Barry).

Manu has excelled on every team he has played (Argentina, Italy, Argentina National Team and now the Spurs). Only in the Spurs he is playing beside Tim. i.e. Manu would play well on any NBA Team.

[violentkitten]

I actually disagree with you Matt.

Without getting into salary issues, trades, cap, etc etc,
and assuming this scenario is realistic, your reasoning assumes that you build teams like legos, and the players' expected performances are exactly or similar as they are with their current teams. Nothing further from the truth.

It goes along the lines of... Ray Allen is a great shooter, we play inside out, when other teams double team TD, Ray Allen will make them pay with his jumpshot. He would be awesome!

I heard similar things when Brent Barry became a Spurs not so long ago (and I am not comparing them, but I hope you catch my gist). Brent is a very intelligent basketball player with a soft touch and good guy. It was supposed that Tim Duncan would make him even better, right? All his numbers are down, he couldn't adapt to the current Spurs' system. What makes you believe any player can play under the current system and conditions?

What most people fail to realize is that Ray Allen needs the ball in his hands to be effective and a large number of FGA/g. In the last 3 years Allen has taken:

year FGA/g FG% 3P%
02-03 18.17 .439 .377
03-04 18.16 .440 .392
04-05 19.15 .428 .376

In this playoffs, Ray has taken:
year FGA/g FG% 3P%
04-05 19.54 .474 .378

If you expect Ray Allen to take a lesser role, you don't know him. I do not expect him to significantly reduce his touches. This implies two things...

1) Either Tony Parker drastically reduce the number of touches he gets.

2) The Spurs completely change their offense (increase the pace) to allow an increase on the number attempt per game (we become a running team).

Tim takes 18.22 FGA/g and Tony 16.5 FGA/g. They both take the most FGA/g on the Spurs team. People still don't realize that Manu is having this increadible run while taking only 12.5 FGA/g and without significantly changing the Spurs offense. This is what is the most remarkable aspect of his performance, and I can guarantee that NO other player in the league can perform as well as he had in the playoffs with the limited touches and role given to him by Pop. NONE!


yet ray ray has produced with those additional touches. and thats with danny fortson and reggie evans up front.

sure, manu is great at making the most of his touches, but those touches come with the league's best frontcourt player demanding attention.

[nkdlunch]

yet ray ray has produced with those additional touches. and thats with danny fortson and reggie evans up front.

sure, manu is great at making the most of his touches, but those touches come with the league's best frontcourt player demanding attention.

Didn't manu score a few 30,40 point games when Tim was injured?

[Rick Von Braun]

.

[Rick Von Braun]

I don't agree with the way you count "touches".
While Manu shoots only 12.5 FG/g, he also shoots a lot of free throws and when you shoot free throws you are also giving back the ball to the opponent.
That's why I think you should use more point per possession stats than points per shots. No matter how you measure it, Manu is the most efficient player by a good margin. There has been some discussions as to how to measure a possession. While there is no unique agreement as to what is the best way to measure possessions in the basketball statistical community, a formula commonly used is given by:

Poss = FGA - OR + TO + FTA/2

Poss: Possessions
FGA: Field Goal Attempts
OR: Offensive Rebounds
TO: Turnovers
FTA: Free Throws Attempted

Note that this formula is not perfect. Good Offensive rebounders that don't shoot much get a lot of free possesions. In addition, FTs always takes possessions away, even if they are technical FTs or And 1 FTs. Note that the last point significantly increases Manu's possesions, since he shoots most of the Spurs' technical FTs, flagrant fouls, and And 1 FTs.

Dean Smith, the former Hall of Fame coach from the University of North Carolina, made an efficiency rating very popular that evaluated how many points per possession his team, and his opponents, was getting. He found that this goal of 1 point per possession was a good benchmark to determine how well a team played. More than 1pt/poss is good while less than 1pt/poss left room for improvement.

The Pts/Poss of the Spurs' triumvirate are:

Manu Ginobili 1.18
Tim Duncan 1.10
Tony Parker 0.87

Manu has one of the best Pts/Poss rates in this playoffs, even better than Timmy who is a very efficient player.


Manu is shooting a lot of free throws and that's one reason why he has such an amazing point per shot average. Look, the notion that Manu is amazing just because he is shooting (and making) a lot of FTs was debunked when I made a comparison with Dywane Wade not so long ago.

You don't like FTs, very well, let's get rid of them. Let's use Adjusted Field Goal Percentage.

AFG%: Adjusted FG Percentage = [(PTS - FTM)/FGA]/2
ADJ FG% measures shooting efficiency by taking into account the total points a player produces through his field goal attempts. The intention of this adjustment is largely to evaluate the impact of three-point shooting. For ex: If Shaquille O'Neal has 3-5 FG, all two-point shots for 6 points, then his ADJ FG% = [(6/5)]/2 = .600. Meanwhile, if Ray Allen is 2-5 FG, but his 2 FGM are both three-pointers for 6 points, then his ADJ FG% = [(6/5)]/2 = .600

Manu ranks 5th (0.609) in ADJ FG% among all players in the playoffs, and he is the top Spurs player by a wide margin as well (TD ranks 39th with 0.483, TP ranks 43rd with 0.468).

Ohh... but Manu is on top just because he is a very good 3PT shooter. Ok, let's get rid of the FTs and the treys. How is Manu shooting 2Pters?

Manu ranks 13th (0.550) in 2P% in the playoffs, right ahead of Nazr (14th, 0.548), and above Tony (36th, 0.492) and Timmy (39th, 0.486).

So no matter how you slice it, Manu's performance is not due to just hitting a large number of FTs.

[manu = balki]

don't be ridikalus. i no top 5. i top 1. duncan no make me better. manu make duncan better. i no be stopped. i win game for spurs. i basketball god. i be in hall of fame soon. i no stop play till i 50. i win mvp next year.

[beck253]

I think the best way to determine this is the old "who would you take scenario". Let's say the NBA decides to throw everyone in a pot and do a draft, how will you draft in the first round? As much as I love Manu, here are the list of the guys I would take over him and why.

Timmy - obvious
Shaq - As much as you hate him, you cannot argue with his size and ability
Garnett - Great big men are harder to find than great guards
Stoudamire - Amazing and hasn't even matured yet
Lebron - Great size, Great scorer, Great team player, Great potential

In the mix with Manu:
Wade - Very, very good and is much younger
McGrady - Can score, all spurs fans know that all too well
Bryant - Forget the attitude, you can't deny how good he is
Iverson - Can score, has heart, and will pass to those he trusts to score
Dirk Diggler - A very versatile big man.

So my call is that Manu is top 10, but is possibly on the verge of being top 5. Give him another year. If he produces like he has during the playoffs for the entire season then he is fighting for top 3.

Player less, player more (you forgot Nash) regarding the list, I agree with your take.
I consider Manu during this regular season was around the 18-20th place.
After this playoffs, he has raised around 7th-12th

[NZHayden]

id say hes the best international player in the nba at the moment