Oops

[DarrinS]

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/jon-stewart-blasts-obama-administration-for-solyndra-scandal/

[Yonivore]

Fox News, call your doctor. Because the erection you currently have is going to last longer than four hours.
:lmao

[boutons_deux]

Plenty of private capitalists lost their Solyndra bets, also. aka, how the free market invested game works.

[cantthinkofanything]

Plenty of private capitalists lost their Solyndra bets, also. aka, how the free market invested game works.

But they actually chose to invest their money. The U.S. taxpayers didn't.

[Yonivore]

But they actually chose to invest their money. The U.S. taxpayers didn't.
Not only that, by jiggering with the bankruptcy rules, once again, Obama has managed to place the taxpayer -- the investor with the most skin in the game -- subordinate to one of his crony private investors when it comes to recovery.

There are a lot of things this administration has done that should lead to impeachment, this is just another. But, at least his media whores are paying attention this time.

[cheguevara]

impeach him!

[Yonivore]

impeach him!
I'm all for it.

**I take that back; I'm more in favor of him suffering a humiliating defeat at the polls next year. It's too late for impeachment.

[cheguevara]

I'm all for it.

**I take that back; I'm more in favor of him suffering a humiliating defeat at the polls next year. It's too late for impeachment.

and what if he wins?

[Yonivore]

and what if he wins?
Then, I'd be in favor of impeachment beginning the day after the electoral college certifies the results of the election.

[cheguevara]

how the tables have turned

[Yonivore]

how the tables have turned
Except, you have allegations of real crimes not ones based on political opposition.

[cheguevara]

Except, you have allegations of real crimes not ones based on political opposition.

Oops

- Misled Congress about Threat from Iraq - violated Title 18 USC 371 and 1001
- Shaped Intelligence to Justify War with Iraq
- Lied about Uranium from Niger
- Lied about Aluminum Tubes
- Lied about Congress having Same Information as Bush
- Bush did not meet the requirements of HJR114 and therefore invaded Iraq without authority.
- Illegal Electronic Surveillance - violated FISA laws and 4th amendment
- Torture of Prisoners - violated Federal Anti-Torture Laws and Geneva Convention
- Violated International Law
- Refused to comply with Congressional Subpoenas

[George Gervin's Afro]

Except, you have allegations of real crimes not ones based on political opposition.

like outing a CIA operative?

[Viva Las Espuelas]

The doctor is the last person I'd call if I had an erection for four hours. Just sayin'.

[Yonivore]

like outing a CIA operative?
A lot of reasonable people disagree over quite a few things related to the Valerie Plame "outing," not the least of which is whether or not she enjoyed protection under the specific statute in question and that it Richard Armitage -- of his own accord -- who leaked her name.

Again it was generally Bush's political opponents who made hay of this.

[boutons_deux]

"generally Bush's political opponents who made hay of this."

fucking duh! it was dubya's gang, esp dickhead, who went after Wilson for seriously exposing dickhead's lies about yellowcake.

[George Gervin's Afro]

A lot of reasonable people disagree over quite a few things related to the Valerie Plame "outing," not the least of which is whether or not she enjoyed protection under the specific statute in question and that it Richard Armitage -- of his own accord -- who leaked her name.

Again it was generally Bush's political opponents who made hay of this.

shouldn't you apply the same logic to this loan fiasco now?

or is this "i'm too much of a politacl hack to not care that I am a hypocrite" thing?

[George Gervin's Afro]

Oops

- Misled Congress about Threat from Iraq - violated Title 18 USC 371 and 1001
- Shaped Intelligence to Justify War with Iraq
- Lied about Uranium from Niger
- Lied about Aluminum Tubes
- Lied about Congress having Same Information as Bush
- Bush did not meet the requirements of HJR114 and therefore invaded Iraq without authority.
- Illegal Electronic Surveillance - violated FISA laws and 4th amendment
- Torture of Prisoners - violated Federal Anti-Torture Laws and Geneva Convention
- Violated International Law
- Refused to comply with Congressional Subpoenas

well thankfully bush did keep his word that the military solution for Iraq was of last resort...


Why do I care? The WH pimped a loan so I feel we need to get to the bottom of it..impeachment if necessary..

[cantthinkofanything]

"generally Bush's political opponents who made hay of this."

fucking duh! it was dubya's gang, esp dickhead, who went after Wilson for seriously exposing dickhead's lies about yellowcake.

Forget everything else that Obama and Bush did wrong. What's your opinion of the Solyndra issue?

[boutons_deux]

Solyndra is a victim, like so many corps, and esp Human-Americans pitted against Chinese/Indian workers make $20/day, of China's -30% under-pegged currency.

China's rigging the trade game, using US $Ts to subsidize Chinese companies with $10Bs/year to undercut/kill more US productions and jobs, then suck in more US $Ts, in virtuous circle for China and UCA, and vicious circle for Human-Americans.

Solyndra is no big deal, the money was mostly spent in USA, not overseas, not sucked in to Wall St.

[cantthinkofanything]

Solyndra is a victim, like so many corps, and esp Human-Americans pitted against Chinese/Indian workers make $20/day, of China's -30% under-pegged currency.

China's rigging the trade game, using US $Ts to subsidize Chinese companies with $10Bs/year to undercut/kill more US productions and jobs, then suck in more US $Ts, in virtuous circle for China and UCA, and vicious circle for Human-Americans.

Solyndra is no big deal, the money was mostly spent in USA, not overseas, not sucked in to Wall St.

Nigga please

[boutons_deux]

China the price leader, now or very soon.


"The data should not be a surprise to solar industry followers who have seen three U.S. solar companies declare bankruptcy in the past few weeks and ongoing industry consolidation. In another indication of tough times, solar industry analyst Jesse Pichel of Jefferies this morning cut his ratings for three Chinese solar manufacturers, citing questions over demand in Europe and "adrift" prices.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-20107289-54/rooftop-solar-prices-fall-precipitously/?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20

[Yonivore]

like outing a CIA operative?
Hey, don't get me wrong; I'm all for Richard Armitage having his day in court but, as I've already said, reasonable people disagree over whether or not a crime was even committed. And, without a prosecution and conviction after lo' these many years, I'm doubting that's going to happen.

[boutons_deux]

Nigga please

G F Y, bitch

[Yonivore]

shouldn't you apply the same logic to this loan fiasco now?

or is this "i'm too much of a politacl hack to not care that I am a hypocrite" thing?

I believe I used the word alleged. I think there should be an investigation and prosecution if it reveals criminal activity.

[Yonivore]

Oops

- Misled Congress about Threat from Iraq - violated Title 18 USC 371 and 1001
- Shaped Intelligence to Justify War with Iraq
- Lied about Uranium from Niger
- Lied about Aluminum Tubes
- Lied about Congress having Same Information as Bush
- Bush did not meet the requirements of HJR114 and therefore invaded Iraq without authority.
- Illegal Electronic Surveillance - violated FISA laws and 4th amendment
- Torture of Prisoners - violated Federal Anti-Torture Laws and Geneva Convention
- Violated International Law
- Refused to comply with Congressional Subpoenas
Everything listed are either partisan characterizations of wrongdoing or, apparently, don't rise to the level of warranting any action -- more than whining about it.

[cantthinkofanything]

G F Y, bitch

I don't know if you ever had any credibility here. But not being able to call a spade a spade proves to me that you're just as blind as some of the extreme right wingers that you love to take shots at.

[cheguevara]

Everything listed are either partisan characterizations of wrongdoing or, apparently, don't rise to the level of warranting any action -- more than whining about it.

funny that's exactly what describes the solyndra "scandal" so far. yet you've already crucified magic negro :lol

[boutons_deux]

After Falling For Climategate ‘Scandal,’ Jon Stewart Goes Gaga Over Solyndra

http://thinkprogress.org/green/2011/09/16/321403/after-falling-for-climategate-scandal-jon-stewart-goes-gaga-over-solyndra/

[Spurminator]

Wow, what a revealing article by ThinkProgress. They pretty much closed the book on this one with all of their insightful analysis.

[boutons_deux]

like climate gate, the Repug/Fox outrage over solyndra is completely faked.

Who sent the goons to grab all the solyndra stuff? Repugs?

[Yonivore]

funny that's exactly what describes the solyndra "scandal" so far. yet you've already crucified magic negro :lol
Thus, I used the word allegedly. Something the left never used with the previous administration -- always went straight to convicting Bush of a crime and throwing him out of office. Every time.

I'll say it one more time. I believe there should be a thorough investigation of the Solyndra and, if wrongdoing is discovered, it should be prosecuted. If Obama is implicated, he should be impeached and tried by the Senate...but, only if he wins re-election; otherwise, we can just move on and set about the job of repairing the damage he's done.

Is that clear enough?

Do I think crimes were committed in the Solyndra debacle? I think it's entirely possible. And, considering how much direct involvement the White House had in bringing that debacle about, I think it's fair to point to Obama and ask the questions.

You can disagree but, oh well.

[Yonivore]

funny that's exactly what describes the solyndra "scandal" so far. yet you've already crucified magic negro :lol
So, since we're on the topic, let's look at the facts so far.

1) Internal administration e-mails/documents demonstrate DOE was warned, well before the granting of the $500 million dollar loan, that Solyndra would be bankrupt by September 2011. They filed for bankruptcy on September 9, 2011. I think it would be reasonable to discover why this documented -- and accurate -- prediction was ignored.

2) Internal administration e-mails/documents demonstrate administration officials rushed the loan through the process in order to provide the Vice President with a photo op.

3) The OMB, for what some are saying is either a first or very rare, expressed concern over what the "optics" of a failed Solyndra would mean for the administration.

4) Somehow, a private investor in Solyndra, who happened to be a major campaign bundler for Obama, ended up in a superior position, over taxpayers, in bankruptcy when conventional processes would have placed him behind the taxpayer. I think that warrants investigation.

[George Gervin's Afro]

So, since we're on the topic, let's look at the facts so far.

1) Internal administration e-mails/documents demonstrate DOE was warned, well before the granting of the $500 million dollar loan, that Solyndra would be bankrupt by September 2011. They filed for bankruptcy on September 9, 2011. I think it would be reasonable to discover why this documented -- and accurate -- prediction was ignored.

2) Internal administration e-mails/documents demonstrate administration officials rushed the loan through the process in order to provide the Vice President with a photo op.

3) The OMB, for what some are saying is either a first or very rare, expressed concern over what the "optics" of a failed Solyndra would mean for the administration.

4) Somehow, a private investor in Solyndra, who happened to be a major campaign bundler for Obama, ended up in a superior position, over taxpayers, in bankruptcy when conventional processes would have placed him behind the taxpayer. I think that warrants investigation.

where's the law being broken?

Didn't Perry appoint campaign contributors to posts within the TX govt? Sure you want to go there?

[Yonivore]

where's the law being broken?

I don't know. That's why you investigate.

If my government gave $500 million dollars to a company they knew was failing, that they knew would make them look bad if they failed, and that they then helped a President's crony (allegedly) gain an unusual and favorable position when the company bellied-up, I'd want it investigated for wrongdoing.

Wouldn't you?


Didn't Perry appoint campaign contributors to posts within the TX govt? Sure you want to go there?
Sure, go there.

[ElNono]

reasonable people disagree

You're not reasonable people, Yoni.

[Yonivore]

You're not reasonable people, Yoni.
Even so, I'm not a minority of one on these issues and, I think you belie your unreasonableness to assert everyone, on my side of these issues, is unreasonable.

[ElNono]

Even so, I'm not a minority

You're still far from reasonable. Those two things are not connected.

[Yonivore]

You're still far from reasonable. Those two things are not connected.
Okay, I'm not sure your position on that matters. The fact remains, there are as many, if not more, people that share my positions on issues with which you disagree.

[ElNono]

Okay, I'm not sure your position on that matters. The fact remains, there are as many, if not more, people that share my positions on issues with which you disagree.

Prove it. How many more people agree with your takes than my takes?

Please provide exact numbers whenever possible.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Prove it. How many more people agree with your takes than my takes?

Please provide exact numbers whenever possible.

he just made that up... that's what yoni does!

[Yonivore]

Prove it. How many more people agree with your takes than my takes?

Please provide exact numbers whenever possible.
:lmao Who's being unreasonable?

Are you suggesting there isn't a large amount of support for the positions I side with in this forum? Which ones?

And, whether or not either one of us is able to produce definitive numbers on which of our positions is most supported, doesn't mean any number of people in either of those groups aren't reasonable people.

[George Gervin's Afro]

:lmao Who's being unreasonable?

Are you suggesting there isn't a large amount of support for the positions I side with in this forum? Which ones?

And, whether or not either one of us is able to produce definitive numbers on which of our positions is most supported, doesn't mean any number of people in either of those groups aren't reasonable people.

so stop making the clam that more people agree with/ support your opinion than others... how hard is that?

[Yonivore]

so stop making the clam that more people agree with/ support your opinion than others... how hard is that?
I think the 2004 re-election of Bush was a referendum on many of these issues.

[ElNono]

Who's being unreasonable?

What's unreasonable about asking to back up your claim? :lol

Are you gonna back it up or run away from it? :lmao

How many, Yoni? I'll be waiting for the numbers.

[ducks]

"generally Bush's political opponents who made hay of this."

fucking duh! it was dubya's gang, esp dickhead, who went after Wilson for seriously exposing dickhead's lies about yellowcake.

dem living in past
bush made mistakes
but this idiot is making more

[ElNono]

I think the 2004 re-election of Bush was a referendum on many of these issues.

What about the 2008 election? Did you, along with your alleged majority, agree with the winner? :lmao

[Yonivore]

What about the 2008 election? Did you, along with your alleged majority, agree with the winner? :lmao
President Bush wasn't a candidate.

The point of bringing up the 2004 re-election was to demonstrate the point that there must have been enough reasonable people, who agreed with me on the issues related to President Bush's alleged criminal activities that it wasn't a factor.

If it wasn't reasonable to hold those positions -- regardless of whether or not you believe I'm reasonable -- I doubt President Bush, or any politician, would continue to hold enough favor to win a Presidential election.

[ElNono]

President Bush wasn't a candidate.

Your 'ideas' were.

And there was another election in 2006 too. The majority voted there too.

[Yonivore]

Your 'ideas' were.

And there was another election in 2006 too. The unreasonableness was on display there too.
None of the principal issues we've been discussing here were on the ballot. But even if they were, are you suggesting that everyone that voted against President Obama was being unreasonable?

[ElNono]

None of the principal issues we've been discussing here were on the ballot. But even if they were, are you suggesting that everyone that voted against President Obama was being unreasonable?

Now we're getting to what I was pointing out: Popularity and reasonableness are not connected at all. Not sure why you kept bringing popularity as a validation of reasonableness. However, if your contention is that they're connected, then you answered your own question above.

But now that we agree that they're not connected at all, you're still far from reasonable yoni.

[Yonivore]

Now we're getting to what I was pointing out: Popularity and reasonableness are not connected at all. Not sure why you kept bringing popularity as a validation of reasonableness.

But now that we agree that they're not connected at all, you're still far from reasonable yoni.
I also think you're confusing unreasonable positions with unreasonable people. I can think you're an unreasonable person without thinking your position is unreasonable and, vice versa.

This is a common practice in this forum. We live in a tiny universe of and, just as has happened in this thread, people -- at some point -- begin attacking the poster instead of challenging the idea or position being asserted.

So, I ask the question, are there any reasonable people in the world that disagree with your worldview of any of the issues discussed here?

Is it reasonable to believe President Bush did not lie in his State of the Union Address?

It is reasonable to believe any number of the positions I've taken here are reasonable while still believing I'm an unreasonable person?

If not, I would assert you're being unreasonable. Because, I think there are plenty of people on the left that are both reasonable and wrong on any number of positions over which we disagree.

[ElNono]

I also think you're confusing unreasonable position with unreasonable people. I can think you're an unreasonable person without thinking your position is unreasonable and, vice versa.

No, I'm not confused at all.

You're far from reasonable. You're simply a cheerleader for a team. As there are cheerleaders for the other team. You're no different.

Neither of which can win an election on their own, BTW.

[ElNono]

And there's plenty of people I disagree with here on a number of topics that I find quite reasonable. Manny, RandomGuy, vy65, winehole... probably more.

[Yonivore]

No, I'm not confused at all.

You're far from reasonable. You're simply a cheerleader for a team. As there are cheerleaders for the other team. You're no different.

Neither of which can win an election on their own, BTW.
Fine, so you believe I'm unreasonable. I can live with that.

My question to you is, are there any reasonable people who share my view on the issues, discussed in this thread, that you view as reasonable?

[CuckingFunt]

The doctor is the last person I'd call if I had an erection for four hours. Just sayin'.

I don't know many booty calls with knowledge of the proper procedure for treating priapism.

[Yonivore]

And there's plenty of people I disagree with here on a number of topics that I find quite reasonable. Manny, RandomGuy, vy65, winehole... probably more.
So, it appears to be more of a reasonableness standard based on forum personality. It doesn't surprise me this list contains posters that also, probably, find me unreasonable.

Is there anyone, with which you disagree over the vast majority of my positions about President Bush, you would characterize as reasonable?

[Viva Las Espuelas]

like climate gate, the Repug/Fox outrage over solyndra is completely faked.

Who sent the goons to grab all the solyndra stuff? Repugs?

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5408426&postcount=15

[ElNono]

So, it appears to be more of a reasonableness standard based on forum personality.

Not at all. It has everything to do with being able to back up the assertions, which in turn goes into credibility.

Which is exactly why you are very far from reasonable.

[ElNono]

Fine, so you believe I'm unreasonable. I can live with that.

Okay

[Yonivore]

Not at all. It has everything to do with being able to back up the assertions, which in turn goes into credibility.

Which is exactly why you are very far from reasonable.
Name a position I've taken, in favor of President Bush, that I haven't supported.

[CosmicCowboy]

It's unreasonable to burn up two pages arguing about who is reasonable.

[ElNono]

Name a position I've taken, in favor of President Bush, that I haven't supported.

Too many. Torture, illegal spying, going to war in Iraq, translating the documents just to name a few.

[ElNono]

It's unreasonable to burn up two pages arguing about who is reasonable.

Why? :lol

[Yonivore]

It's unreasonable to burn up two pages arguing about who is reasonable.
I agree, I'd rather be discussing the issues but, what can I say? I'm a giver and ElNono seemed to need the attention.

[ElNono]

What issues would you rather be discussing, Yoni?

And why aren't you? Don't let me get in your way.

[Yonivore]

Too many. Torture, illegal spying, going to war in Iraq, translating the documents just to name a few.
Actually, I've supported every position I've ever posted on every one of these issues with sources and links to material outside this forum. That you don't agree with my position or that you don't agree with the sources I referenced doesn't meant I didn't mean I didn't support my positions. That I don't back them up to your satisfaction, doesn't make the positions unreasonable, either.

[Yonivore]

What issues would you rather be discussing, Yoni?

And why aren't you? Don't let me get in your way.
It's a compulsion.

[ElNono]

Actually, I've supported every position I've ever posted on every one of these issues with sources and links to material outside this forum.

No, you have not. And that's why you're unreasonable.

[ElNono]

It's a compulsion.

Does it bother you that I find you unreasonable, while I don't find other posters unreasonable?

[Yonivore]

No, you have not. And that's why you're unreasonable.
Actually, I have. Pick one.

[Yonivore]

Does it bother you that I find you unreasonable, while I don't find other posters unreasonable?
Nope.

[ElNono]

Actually, I have. Pick one.

Where are the WMD? Have they finished translating the documents?

[ElNono]

Nope.

Good. It shouldn't, tbh.

[CuckingFunt]

It's unreasonable to burn up two pages arguing about who is reasonable.

Might as well close down the political forum if you're going to start picking that nit.

[CosmicCowboy]

DKgOBKOxyhQ

[ElNono]

Going on 3 pages, tbh

Maybe more :lol

[Yonivore]

Might as well close down the political forum if you're going to start picking that nit.
:tu

[Yonivore]

Where are the WMD?
Back when the discussion was being had, I sourced every position I took on whether or not it was reasonable to believe Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction. That they haven't been found doesn't mean I didn't support my position it was reasonable to assume Iraq had them. In fact, I think it's still reasonable to believe that. But, you're changing the argument. We're talking about whether or not I supported my positions and, I did.


Have they finished translating the documents?
Again, not the question we are specifically discussing. When I was talking about that project [I forget the name], I sourced my posts and positions with links and opinions from others. I didn't make the shit up.

BTW, I would like to know whatever became of that effort.

But, back to the question at hand, you just disagreed with my position and the sources I used to support it. That's a reasonable position to take. Attacking me, now, and saying I just pulled these positions out of my ass and didn't support them is, in my humble opinion, unreasonable.

Hell, in the early days, I plagiarized most of my content from other places -- sidestepping me altogether.

[clambake]

support for that position would require that they were found.

[ElNono]

Back when the discussion was being had, I sourced every position I took on whether or not it was reasonable to believe Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction.

I didn't ask you "Where were the WMD back then?". I asked:

Where are the WMD?
Do you still think Iraq had WMD?


Again, not the question we are specifically discussing.

You didn't ask for "question we are specifically discussing"


When I was talking about that project [I forget the name], I sourced my posts and positions with links and opinions from others. I didn't make the shit up.

Were they reasonable? For example, I don't think Cheney was a reasonable source when it came to Iraq, seeing he had a direct interest in certain message to be delivered.

And yes, I feel just the same about current administration officials talking about, for example, how many jobs the stimulus created.

[ElNono]

support for that position would require that they were found.

bingo

[Yonivore]

bingo
Do you think it is reasonable to believe Jimmy Hoffa was murdered?

[Yonivore]

I didn't just rely on Vice President Cheney's statements.


"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
--President Bill Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
--President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
--Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
--Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
Letter to President Clinton, signed by:
-- Democratic Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others, Oct. 9, 1998

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
-Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
-- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999

"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
Letter to President Bush, Signed by:
-- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), and others, Dec 5, 2001

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and th! e means of delivering them."
-- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
-- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
-- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
-- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
-- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
-- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
-- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do"
-- Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members ... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
-- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
-- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..."
-- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003
As I've said before, there were plenty of people, on both sides of the aisle, who believed Iraq possessed WMD's. It was and is a reasonable position to take.

[ElNono]

Do you think it is reasonable to believe Jimmy Hoffa was murdered?

I don't know. I don't know much of Hoffa's death.

[ElNono]

I didn't just rely on Vice President Cheney's statements.

As I've said before, there were plenty of people, on both sides of the aisle, who believed Iraq possessed WMD's. It was and is a reasonable position to take.

Again, because you're dodging the question. I didn't ask you what you thought back then. I asked you what you think now.

Where are the WMD?

And BTW, two, three or ten wrongs don't make a right.

And the Cheney comment was about 'translating the documents'. Who was your source 'from both sides' about that?

[Yonivore]

I don't know. I don't know much of Hoffa's death.
Reasonable people think he was murdered and, yet, no body has ever been found.

Similarly, reasonable people believed Saddam Hussein possessed WMD's even though none have ever been found. I think that's still a reasonable position.

And, even though no stockpiles were ever discovered, there was plenty of evidence Iraq maintained the capability to reconstitute a WMD program on a very short timeline.

[Yonivore]

Again, because you're dodging the question. I didn't ask you what you thought back then. I asked you what you think now.
I think it's reasonable to believe he had weapons of mass destruction.


Where are the WMD?
I don't know but, that they haven't been found, doesn't mean they never existed.


And BTW, two, three or ten wrongs don't make a right.
I'm not sure I follow.


And the Cheney comment was about 'translating the documents'. Who was your source 'from both sides' about that?
First, I'm don't recall sourcing the Vice President on the translation project. That was a project I found from another source. I'll see if I can re-locate the link and post it.

And, When have I ever claimed to have sourced both sides of an issue? I source my position, that's all. If I find people, with whom I normally disagree, that agree with me on a position, you can bet I'll probably use that source.

[CuckingFunt]

Similarly, reasonable people believed Saddam Hussein possessed WMD's even though none have ever been found. I think that's still a reasonable position.

Well, if nothing else it gives me hope about that $5M I keep insisting is probably in my bank account.

[ElNono]

Reasonable people think he was murdered and, yet, no body has ever been found.

Are you comparing hiding one body to hiding WMD, including WMD production facilities?

[Yonivore]

Are you comparing hiding one body to hiding WMD, including WMD production facilities?
Yep. Hell, Saddam Hussein hid a squadron of fighter jets under the Iraqi desert that weren't found until the second invasion.

And, if you'll read the Duelfer Report you'll learn there was quite a bit of WMD paraphenalia lying around. Iraq was far from clean of WMD evidence. There were just no stockpiles found.

[clambake]

here is a quote from powell that yoni left out:

"The evidence used to justify war was deliberately misleading"

[Yonivore]

Well, if nothing else it gives me hope about that $5M I keep insisting is probably in my bank account.
Did you ever have $5Million dollars in your account?

Did you ever have a vast majority of world leaders claim you had $5Million dollars in your account?

[ElNono]

I think it's reasonable to believe he had weapons of mass destruction.

That's certainly unreasonable, given what we know today.
Where are they? Back it up.


I don't know but, that they haven't been found, doesn't mean they never existed.

Does that mean you can't back up your claim?

Because that's the opposite of:
"Actually, I've supported every position I've ever posted on every one of these issues"


I'm not sure I follow.

That one, two or ten reasonable people thought back then Iraq might have had WMD (for whatever reason) doesn't make it a reasonable proposition today.


First, I'm don't recall sourcing the Vice President on the translation project. That was a project I found from another source. I'll see if I can re-locate the link and post it.

I don't recall either. I'm merely pointing out that "sourcing" alone doesn't make you reasonable or credible. Depends on the source. If the source isn't reasonable or credible, then neither are you.

For example, I find quite unreasonable to take Barry's quotes on jobs created by his stimulus package. That's just buttons-esque.

[ElNono]

here is a quote from powell that yoni left out:

"The evidence used to justify war was deliberately misleading"

[ChumpDumper]

It was totally reasonable to think Saddam would have used WMDs on the US in 2003.

Remember when he did in 1991?

Mushroom clouds of nerve gas everywhere!

[CuckingFunt]

Did you ever have $5Million dollars in your account?

Did you ever have a vast majority of world leaders claim you had $5Million dollars in your account?

I would like to have $5M in my bank account, have been actively working toward the acquisition and development of surplus funds, and have a specific use for stockpiled millions.

History shows that should be sufficient evidence for my being a threat to acquire $5M.

[Yonivore]

I would like to have $5M in my bank account, have been actively working toward the acquisition and development of surplus funds, and have a specific use for stockpiled millions.

History shows that should be sufficient evidence for my being a threat to acquire $5M.
No, it doesn't. Now, if you had previously possessed $5M in your bank account and had shown that $5M to your Kurdish and Iranian neighbors and, then, after spending a part of that $5M entertaining those Kurds and Iranians, proceeded to actively work toward acquiring and developing more surplus funds, with the intent of showing and entertaining others; you'd have an corollary.

[ChumpDumper]

Who gives a shit if she spends money on Iranians?

Aren't they evil?

[ElNono]

Yep. Hell, Saddam Hussein hid a squadron of fighter jets under the Iraqi desert that weren't found until the second invasion.

So we found a squadron of jets buried under the desert but no WMD anywhere?

And you don't think that still hoping to find WMD is an unreasonable proposition? :lol


And, if you'll read the Duelfer Report you'll learn there was quite a bit of WMD paraphenalia lying around. Iraq was far from clean of WMD evidence. There were just no stockpiles found.

So you agree they didn't have any WMD?

[ElNono]

Who gives a shit if she's spends money on Iranians?

Aren't they evil?

[Yonivore]

That's certainly unreasonable, given what we know today.
Where are they? Back it up.
Really? If they were destroyed or moved or hidden (and not yet found), that would explain their absence. In my mind, discounting the possibility of any of those three alternative propositions is unreasonable.


Does that mean you can't back up your claim?
It means, I don't know.


Because that's the opposite of:
"Actually, I've supported every position I've ever posted on every one of these issues"
No, it's not. That I can't prove they existed does not mean I didn't provide support for my position it was reasonable to believe they did.


That one, two or ten reasonable people thought back then Iraq might have had WMD (for whatever reason) doesn't make it a reasonable proposition today.
It was more than that but, that most of the rest of the world has moved on from the question doesn't make it any less reasonable today, than it was in 2003, to believe Iraq possessed -- in 2003 -- weapons of mass destruction.


I don't recall either. I'm merely pointing out that "sourcing" alone doesn't make you reasonable or credible. Depends on the source. If the source isn't reasonable or credible, then neither are you.
I didn't say it did; I said I sourced my assertions with links I believed were reasonable. You said I didn't support any of my posts.


For example, I find quite unreasonable to take Barry's quotes on jobs created by his stimulus package. That's just buttons-esque.
I would never source Obama on a position about his own accomplishments.

[ChumpDumper]

In fact, aren't the Iranians closer than Saddam ever was to making a nuke?

Didn't North Korea actually make a nuke while Bush did fuck all about it?

[Yonivore]

So we found a squadron of jets buried under the desert but no WMD anywhere?

And you don't think that still hoping to find WMD is an unreasonable proposition? :lol
Yep. Jets are bigger and less easily hidden, destroyed, or moved.



So you agree they didn't have any WMD?
No, I agreed no stockpiles were found.

[clambake]

i remember when reagan showered those evil iranians with gifts!

[ElNono]

Yep. Jets are bigger and less easily hidden, destroyed, or moved.

Are they? They didn't manufacture those jets.

You don't think it's relatively easy to find radiation or high concentration of certain chemicals?


No, I agreed no stockpiles were found.

So, no WMD were found. You can say it, it's ok.

Unless you claim WMD were found. If that's the case, where are they?

[ChumpDumper]

Is it reasonable to assume that, having Saddam in custody for several months, he would have said something about WMDs?

[CosmicCowboy]

You guys forget that Sadaam himself was perpetuating the WMD myth as a defense against Iran and to bolster his image in the Middle East as a power to be reckoned with. Sucks for him that the US called the bluff.

[clambake]

You guys forget that Sadaam himself was perpetuating the WMD myth as a defense against Iran and to bolster his image in the Middle East as a power to be reckoned with. Sucks for him that the US called the bluff.

sucks for the u.s. that the bush admin. lied.

[CosmicCowboy]

sucks for the u.s. that the bush admin. lied.

You can't actually prove they lied. They obviously had no good inside human intel because Sadaam's inner circle was all relatives or long time cronies from Tikrit. If they really believed there were WMD's then it wasn't a lie.

[ChumpDumper]

You guys forget that Sadaam himself was perpetuating the WMD myth as a defense against Iran and to bolster his image in the Middle East as a power to be reckoned with. Sucks for him that the US called the bluff.Sucks for all the thousands US servicemen and women who died needlessly on Bush's hunch, not to mention all the tens of thousands of Iraqis

[CosmicCowboy]

I'm not saying Sadaam had WMD's, just that they had a reasonable strong suspicion (reinforced by Sadaam's own actions and statements) that he did.

[ChumpDumper]

You can't actually prove they lied. They obviously had no good inside human intel because Sadaam's inner circle was all relatives or long time cronies from Tikrit. If they really believed there were WMD's then it wasn't a lie.It sucks because they believed cab drivers who made shit up out of whole cloth and were soundly discredited by other intel agencies.

[clambake]

You can't actually prove they lied. They obviously had no good inside human intel because Sadaam's inner circle was all relatives or long time cronies from Tikrit. If they really believed there were WMD's then it wasn't a lie.

weapons inspectors (remember them?) said there were no wmds.

and the sec. of state (remember him?) said the evidence used to justify the war was deliberately misleading.

[CosmicCowboy]

I didn't even support the war in Iraq, but don't try to rewrite history now.

[ElNono]

You can't actually prove they lied. They obviously had no good inside human intel because Sadaam's inner circle was all relatives or long time cronies from Tikrit. If they really believed there were WMD's then it wasn't a lie.

Do you still think today Iraq had WMD and that we haven't found them yet?

[ChumpDumper]

I'm not saying Sadaam had WMD's, just that they had a reasonable strong suspicion (reinforced by Sadaam's own actions and statements) that he did.Even then, so what?

Saddam never used them on US forces when he had every opportunity to.

Twice.

Hell, North Korea has nukes.

[CosmicCowboy]

Do you still think today Iraq had WMD and that we haven't found them yet?

Do you have a problem with reading comprehension?


I'm not saying Sadaam had WMD's, just that they had a reasonable strong suspicion (reinforced by Sadaam's own actions and statements) that he did.

[ElNono]

Do you have a problem with reading comprehension?

Sorry, I missed that post when I asked the question.

But see, you're a reasonable chap. :lol

[CosmicCowboy]

Even then, so what?

Saddam never used them on US forces when he had every opportunity to.

Twice.

Hell, North Korea has nukes.

uhhh hello. reading is fundamental.


I didn't even support the war in Iraq, but don't try to rewrite history now.

[clambake]

I didn't even support the war in Iraq, but don't try to rewrite history now.


weapons inspectors (remember them?) said there were no wmds.

well? you must be referring to the history after this. right?

[CosmicCowboy]

well? you must be referring to the history after this. right?

Sadaam also played multiple games of hindering the weapons inspectors and they never had unfettered access. Again you are twisting history to conform to your desired conclusion.

[ChumpDumper]

uhhh hello. reading is fundamental.How is saying Saddam didn't use WMDs on US forces in the Gulf War rewriting history?

Explain this to me.

[Yonivore]

Even as late as 2006, 50% of the population believed Iraq possessed WMD's at the outset of hostilities.


The Harris Interactive Poll, taken July 5-11, shows that half of Americans (50 percent) believe that "Iraq had weapons of mass destruction when the U.S. invaded." That represents a rise of 14 points from February 2005 when only 36 percent thought Iraq had WMD.

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/images/aug06/USIraqWMD_Aug06_graph1.jpg
I tried to link to the actual Harris Interactive data but, was unsuccessful in navigating their archives.

This was embedded in a site (http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/brunitedstatescanadara/238.php?nid=&1)that I've never heard of.

[CosmicCowboy]

I hated the war in Iraq because there was never a viable exit strategy. For the same reason I hated Obama helping the "rebels" in Libya. Now we have a bunch of fucking Islamic fanatics running around with surface to air missiles. Just wait till they start blowing shit up with THOSE.

[ChumpDumper]

Even as late as 2006, 50% of the population believed Iraq possessed WMD's at the outset of hostilities.Ah, the old "Lot's of people were as stupid as I am" gambit.

[CosmicCowboy]

How is saying Saddam didn't use WMDs on US forces in the Gulf War rewriting history?

Explain this to me.

Selective memory. I guess you forgot that he THREATENED to use them if we invaded. Just more reinforcement that (we thought) he had them and was willing to use them.

[ChumpDumper]

I hated the war in Iraq because there was never a viable exit strategy. For the same reason I hated Obama helping the "rebels" in Libya. Now we have a bunch of fucking Islamic fanatics running around with surface to air missiles. Just wait till they start blowing shit up with THOSE.What shit will they blow up with THOSE?

[ElNono]

Even as late as 2006, 50% of the population believed Iraq possessed WMD's at the outset of hostilities.

I don't think that was an unreasonable position.

Still thinking today Iraq had WMD is an unreasonable position.

[ElNono]

Ah, the old "Lot's of people were as stupid as I am" gambit.

Basically.

[CosmicCowboy]

What shit will they blow up with THOSE?

Who knows? helicopters in Afghanistan? Civilian passenger Planes landing at JFK or DFW?

Those fuckers fit in a small suitcase. It's not like our borders aren't porous.

How the fuck do you think they ran the Soviets out of Afghanistan? We gave them stingers and that countered the soviets air superiority/mobility.

[ChumpDumper]

Selective memory. I guess you forgot that he THREATENED to use them if we invaded. Just more reinforcement that he had them and was willing to use them.Selective memory. I guess you forgot coalition forces did indeed invade Iraq in 1991.

[clambake]

libya was already blowing up planes, remember?

[ChumpDumper]

Who knows? helicopters in Afghanistan? Civilian passenger Planes landing at JFK or DFW?

Those fuckers fit in a small suitcase. It's not like our borders aren't porous.

How the fuck do you think they ran the Soviets out of Afghanistan? We gave them stingers and that countered the soviets air superiority/mobility.So you're saying we should invade Libya now to get a few missiles.

[CosmicCowboy]

So you're saying we should invade Libya now to get a few missiles.

Too late. The damage is already done. We just have to live with the consequences of that fuckup.

[CosmicCowboy]

libya was already blowing up planes, remember?

Gadaffi had basically been neutered and was no long a major threat. Lesser of evils in my opinion.

[clambake]

Gadaffi had basically been neutered and was no long a major threat. Lesser of evils in my opinion.

just like saddam

[ChumpDumper]

SAMs existed in the Muslim world before Libya. Why haven't they shot down planes at DFW yet?

[Yonivore]

I don't think that was an unreasonable position.

Still thinking today Iraq had WMD is an unreasonable position.
Okay. Your prerogative. I think it's reasonable.

I also think it's reasonable to believe that if nothing had changed between 2003 and 2006 to change your mind, it isn't likely that anything would occur between 2006 and 2011. It's also reasonable to believe, like I do, that even though you believed in 2003, 2006, or 2011 that WMD's existed in 2003 -- they may no longer be found because they were destroyed, moved, or well hidden.

I think it's reasonable to believe Jimmy Hoffa was murdered even though we may never find his body.

[clambake]

its already been settled, almost 10 years ago.

[CosmicCowboy]

SAMs existed in the Muslim world before Libya. Why haven't they shot down planes at DFW yet?

Suit yourself chump. Keep believing there is no threat from radical islamics when they now have shoulder held surface to air missiles.

[clambake]

Suit yourself chump. Keep believing there is no threat from radical islamics when they now have shoulder held surface to air missiles.

you about ready to fire up that bunker just south of sommerset?

[ElNono]

Okay. Your prerogative. I think it's reasonable.

:lol Whose prerogative you think it was when I was calling you unreasonable?

[CuckingFunt]

I feel like not enough consideration was given to Yoni's brief implication that there may be undiscovered Iraqi WMDs hiding under the desert sands.

[CosmicCowboy]

I feel like not enough consideration was given to Yoni's brief suggestion that there may be undiscovered Iraqi WMDs hiding under the desert sands.

Maybe, but if you can't post a positively confirming link on the internet it can't possibly be true.

[ElNono]

I feel like not enough consideration was given to Yoni's brief suggestion that there may be undiscovered Iraqi WMDs hiding under the desert sands.

Will we know once the papers are finally translated?

[ElNono]

Maybe, but if you can't post a positively confirming link on the internet it can't possibly be true.

You mean we're leaving Iraq and leaving stockpiles of WMD behind?

[CosmicCowboy]

you about ready to fire up that bunker just south of sommerset?

Always working on it. Just put in the swimming pool.

http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/586/texasgameranch003.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/571/texasgameranch003.jpg/)

[CosmicCowboy]

You mean we're leaving Iraq and leaving stockpiles of WMD behind?

Fuck if I know. Or you either.

[Yonivore]

:lol Whose prerogative you think it was when I was calling you unreasonable?
But, you never answered the question of whether or not unreasonable people can hold reasonable positions.

[CuckingFunt]

Will we know once the papers are finally translated?

I hadn't really thought it through that thoroughly. I was mostly going on the logic that it's a lot of sand. There could be all kinds of shit under there.

http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/8952/unledpbm.jpg

[ChumpDumper]

Suit yourself chump. Keep believing there is no threat from radical islamics when they now have shoulder held surface to air missiles.They always had them.

[CosmicCowboy]

They always had them.

link?

I'm not talking middle eastern governments. I'm talking about Islamic terrorists.

[ChumpDumper]

link?

I'm not talking middle eastern governments. I'm talking about Islamic terrorists.


How the fuck do you think they ran the Soviets out of Afghanistan? We gave them stingers and that countered the soviets air superiority/mobility.Are you just acting stupid or are you for reals?

[Nbadan]

:lol

[ElNono]

But, you never answered the question of whether or not unreasonable people can hold reasonable positions.

Where was that question?

[Wild Cobra]

I'm all for it.

**I take that back; I'm more in favor of him suffering a humiliating defeat at the polls next year. It's too late for impeachment.
Besides...

President Joe Biden?

I don't think I can stomach that.

[Wild Cobra]

Oops

- Misled Congress about Threat from Iraq - violated Title 18 USC 371 and 1001
- Shaped Intelligence to Justify War with Iraq
- Lied about Uranium from Niger
- Lied about Aluminum Tubes
- Lied about Congress having Same Information as Bush
- Bush did not meet the requirements of HJR114 and therefore invaded Iraq without authority.
- Illegal Electronic Surveillance - violated FISA laws and 4th amendment
- Torture of Prisoners - violated Federal Anti-Torture Laws and Geneva Convention
- Violated International Law
- Refused to comply with Congressional Subpoenas
Those lies are a bad example of attempting to expose mistakes as lies. Only those who are too biased to see the truth agree with you.

[Wild Cobra]

Solyndra is a victim, like so many corps, and esp Human-Americans pitted against Chinese/Indian workers make $20/day, of China's -30% under-pegged currency.

China's rigging the trade game, using US $Ts to subsidize Chinese companies with $10Bs/year to undercut/kill more US productions and jobs, then suck in more US $Ts, in virtuous circle for China and UCA, and vicious circle for Human-Americans.

Solyndra is no big deal, the money was mostly spent in USA, not overseas, not sucked in to Wall St.
How can you call them the victim when they used a flawed business model?

I'll bet those CEO's skimmed millions off the top of an endeavor that has no chance of success.

[CosmicCowboy]

Are you just acting stupid or are you for reals?

No you are the one that is either bumfucking stupid or didn't follow current events then. Possibly both.

CIA swept and cleaned for 15 freaking years in Afghanistan/Pakistan accounting for all of them after the soviets left and was paying a $100,000 cash bounty per each for recovery which was like a million+ in buying power there. Maybe more that we didn't read about. Those stingers also had a shelf life on internal electronics. Any left are no longer viable to be used against us.

[JoeChalupa]

It ain't like Obama would be the first politician in history to suffer a defeat. Someone ALWAYS loses you know. yes, this is bad.

[Yonivore]

Where was that question?
Fuck, I'm not going to go back and look. Let's pretend I'm asking it for the first time.

[Yonivore]

It ain't like Obama would be the first politician in history to suffer a defeat. Someone ALWAYS loses you know. yes, this is bad.
No, but he'd be the most deserving in quite a long time. And, I love the attitude, Joe...reminds me of Jimmy Carter malaise.

[ElNono]

Fuck, I'm not going to go back and look. Let's pretend I'm asking it for the first time.

I think unreasonable people lack credibility. So when an unreasonable person talks about alleged reasonable persons holding their views, I have to conclude they're talking about unreasonable people like them.

For example, you lack the credibility to take you at your own word when you defend a claim by saying some reasonable persons share the same view as yours.

[Wild Cobra]

Those stingers also had a shelf life on internal electronics. Any left are no longer viable to be used against us.
Mr. Wayne... To be fair...

Just because the electronics may have some expiration in the ROM's doesn't mean someone cannot hack into them and change them, or even replace the electronics.

[CosmicCowboy]

Mr. Wayne... To be fair...

Just because the electronics may have some expiration in the ROM's doesn't mean someone cannot hack into them and change them, or even replace the electronics.

Yeah, y'all are right. Just because islamic militants just got a shitload of fresh off the shelf state of the art shoulder fired surface to air missiles there is absolutely nothing to be concerned about. That "democratic revolution" in Libya was just a resounding fucking success.

[ElNono]

It was for the rebels...

[ChumpDumper]

No you are the one that is either bumfucking stupid or didn't follow current events then. Possibly both.

CIA swept and cleaned for 15 freaking years in Afghanistan/Pakistan accounting for all of them after the soviets left and was paying a $100,000 cash bounty per each for recovery which was like a million+ in buying power there. Maybe more that we didn't read about. Those stingers also had a shelf life on internal electronics. Any left are no longer viable to be used against us.
The US military covered up a reported surface-to-air missile strike by the Taliban that shot down a Chinook helicopter over Helmand in 2007 and killed seven soldiers, including a British military photographer, the war logs show.

The strike on the twin-rotor helicopter shows the Taliban enjoyed sophisticated anti-aircraft capabilities earlier than previously thought, casting new light on the battle for the skies over Afghanistan.

Hundreds of files detail the efforts of insurgents, who have no aircraft, to shoot down western warplanes. The war logs detail at least 10 near-misses by missiles in four years against coalition aircraft, one while refuelling at 11,000ft and another involving a suspected Stinger missile of the kind supplied by the CIA to Afghan rebels in the 1980s....http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/25/afghanistan-taliban-missile-strike-chinook

I guess that was a current event you didn't follow.

[ChumpDumper]

Also:
It was a shoulder-held SA-14 supplied by Iran that was used by Iraqi insurgents to shoot down a Lynx helicopter over Basra in May 2006.http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5822094.ece

[ChumpDumper]

And this:
The relatively simple design and low cost of the missile has since led to its wide distribution among guerrilla groups. The cost of an SA-7 can be as low as $5,000.

In the last 15 years, more than 50,000 shoulder-fired missiles have been sold to Third World countries.

SA-7s were reportedly recovered from al Qaeda safe houses in Afghanistan and al Qaeda is believed to have fired missiles at U.S. aircraft in Saudi Arabia and Yemen in the past.

At least 17 terrorist organizations, and 56 countries are believed to possess shoulder-fired SA-7 missiles. http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=97816&page=1

I think you get the idea.

[CosmicCowboy]

3:46 AM? :lol Well, thanks for the research Chump. Hope you eventually got some sleep. So you have established that they had a few and will use them if they have them. Great. Naturally the Taliban has been using them on military aircraft because that is the the threat they feel the most, and naturally those military aircraft all have pretty extensive evasive countermeasures which to date have limited losses. Now that hundreds more have fallen into the hands of other "islamic rebels" of questionable loyalty it will be interesting to see where they are used next. I suspect they will soon figure out that civilian airliners don't carry the evasive countermeasures and are sitting ducks.

[ChumpDumper]

3:46 AM? :lol Well, thanks for the research Chump. Hope you eventually got some sleep. So you have established that they had a few and will use them if they have them. Great. Naturally the Taliban has been using them on military aircraft because that is the the threat they feel the most, and naturally those military aircraft all have pretty extensive evasive countermeasures which to date have limited losses. Now that hundreds more have fallen into the hands of other "islamic rebels" of questionable loyalty it will be interesting to see where they are used next. I suspect they will soon figure out that civilian airliners don't carry the evasive countermeasures and are sitting ducks.They have known that for as long as they have had surface to air missiles.

I work nights.

lol a few

[boutons_deux]

Asking Why Employees of Solar Firm Lost Jobs

Inside the solar industry, many are not convinced that Solyndra faltered because of overseas competition. The company used a novel technology that did not require silicon and took a big competitive hit when the price of silicon tumbled.A number of Bay Area-based solar manufacturing companies, including San Jose's NanoSolar and Solaria in Fremont, are actively recruiting former Solyndra employees to work in their factories. Daniel Shugar, the chief executive of Solaria, said the importance of low-cost Chinese labor in making United States-built panels less competitive had been greatly exaggerated."Labor cost is not a huge part of the cost of making solar panels, because these things are automated to a large degree," Mr. Shugar said in an interview. Solaria has opened a factory in Fremont for United States orders and another in India for Asian deliveries.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/article?a=842708&f=19

What is certain is that the Repugs and Yoni will distract from national jobs crisis, the foreclosure theft crisis, and all other critical issues by flogging this side issue, or other issue, until Barry is impeached.

[Wild Cobra]

I'll bet the cost of silicon was part of the problem, However, there were other troubling things. They reported profits, and projected higher profits. This is troubling and now as an apparent lie, and they have the FBI investigating.

Science keeps making breakthroughs. Just when you think a wall it hit, that wall falls. Wafer sized over time went from 1", 1-1/2", 2", 75mm, 100mm, 125mm, 150mm, 200mm, 300mm, then to 450mm which I think is finalized in spec. Most likely in prototype product like the 300 mm I got to use on prototype equipment in 1996. It took about 5 years before being used in production runs.

[boutons_deux]

Home Weatherization Grows 1,000% Under Stimulus, Creating Jobs, Saving Low-Income Families $400 a Year

With all the focus on Solyndra and the attacks on green jobs from the Right-wing noise machine, the mainstream media have completely overlooked the explosive success of the weatherization assistance program (WAP) funded almost exclusively by the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act.

With a serious investment under the Recovery Act, WAP increased the numbers of homes weatherized by 1000 percent over any previous year since 1976. This means we are close to weatherizing as many homes in one month (25,000) as we previously did in one year. By the end of ARRA’s three-year lifespan next March, the WAP will almost double the number of homes upgraded in the first year of the program — bringing the total number of energy efficiency projects to 720,000.

The press has focused on negative, headline-grabbing stories about green jobs in recent weeks. But we should not lose sight of the fact that DOE programs like WAP are making a major impact. We already know energy efficiency retrofits create three times the jobs compared with oil and gas, and that WAP has boasted over 14,800 jobs in just the three-month ramp-up period from April to June 2011. Furthermore, an earlier CAP analysis shows if we retrofitted just 40% of our nation’s building stock, we could create 650,000 permanent jobs over a sustained ten year period. The remarkable success of the WAP proves that weatherization can be a source of sustained job creation, and further solidifies the argument for why investments in clean energy are the right kinds of expenditures for these tough economic times.

91% of the firms engaged in retrofit activities are small businesses employing less than 20 people.

This is a sound investment with a phenomenal rate of return: for every $1 invested in the WAP program there are $2.51 returned to the household and broader economy. The $5 billion invested under ARRA, as well as the $180 million invested by 2010 appropriations, shows that the government has put dollars where they are needed the most — when it matters the most. By targeting programs that emphasize job creation, savings for low-income families, energy conservation, and emissions reductions, the Weatherization Assistance Program demonstrates the importance of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act.

http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2011/09/19/321954/home-weatherization-grows-1000-under-stimulus-funding/

==========

We've all heard about this on Fox Repug Propaganda network, right?

[CosmicCowboy]

Even Mouse could get a weatherization job.

[Wild Cobra]

Even Mouse could get a weatherization job.
But then he wouldn't get that blow job through his leaky windows.

[RandomGuy]

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/jon-stewart-blasts-obama-administration-for-solyndra-scandal/

This is one the administration should be taken to the woodshed for.

The lack of due diligence showed some shoddy work.

Company did have an intriguing technology though.

http://insideclimatenews.org/news/20110920/solyndra-bankruptcy-groundbreaking-solar-panel-technology-loan-guarantee-obama-cylindrical-modules


What set Solyndra apart from its thin-film peers was the shape of its modules. Instead of using a flat-plated panel, it coated tubes of glass with its CIGS technology and mounted the cylinders to metal frames. When installed on commercial rooftops that were painted white, the tubes could absorb direct and reflected sunlight from 360 degrees. Flat panels receive sunlight only when it shines overhead.

Solyndra's cylindrical modules could also be installed faster than flat panels and were highly resistant to wind. Dirt and snow can build up on traditional modules and keep out the sun. But the elements fall through the gaps in Solyndra's rows of cylinders.

Nicolas Gourvitch, a director at Green Giraffe Energy Bankers in Paris, a financial advisory firm, described Solyndra's technology as "groundbreaking" and "innovative."

Shayle Kann, managing director of solar research at GTM Research, said "the hope was that it would drive lower costs" in the overall expense of installing and maintaining a solar system. GTM is a green technology research firm with offices in the United States and Germany.

It had its drawbacks/advantages, but the economic meltdown and Chinese solar manufacturers killed demand for their product.

[Yonivore]

This is one the administration should be taken to the woodshed for.
Hopefully, they'll be taken to court and thrown in jail.

[ElNono]

Hopefully, they'll be taken to court and thrown in jail.

That's what we said about the NSA wiretaps, and you know what happened.

It's wrong. They should be taken to court over this, that and a bunch of other things.

[boutons_deux]

Joe Nocera on “The Phony Solyndra Scandal”: The “Real Winner is … the Chinese Solar Industry.”

If Brian Harrison and W. G. Stover, the two Solyndra executives who took the Fifth Amendment at a Congressional hearing on Friday, ever spend a day in jail, I’ll stand on my head in Times Square.

It’s not going to happen, for one simple reason: neither they, nor anyone else connected with Solyndra, have done anything remotely criminal. The company’s recent bankruptcy — which the Republicans are now rabidly “investigating” because Solyndra had the misfortune to receive a $535 million federally guaranteed loan from the Obama administration — was largely brought on by a stunning collapse in the price of solar panels over the past year or so.

The company’s innovative solar panels, high-priced to begin with, became increasingly uncompetitive in the marketplace. Solyndra didn’t have enough big commercial customers to create the necessary economies of scale. And although Harrison and Stover remained optimistic up to the bitter end — insisting six weeks before the late-August bankruptcy filing that the company was going to be fine — they ultimately failed to raise additional capital that would have allowed Solyndra to stay in business.

The Republicans are trying to make that optimism appear sinister, but if we’ve learned anything from the financial crisis, it is that wishful thinking in the face of a collapsing market is not a crime. Otherwise, Richard Fuld, the former chief executive of Lehman Brothers, would be wearing prison garb….

At the hearing on Friday, several of the Republican congressmen boasted that, in passing the continuing resolution to keep the government running the day before, they had succeeded in slashing the program that had made the loan to Solyndra….

But the real winner isn’t the American taxpayer or even the House Republicans. It’s the Chinese solar industry.

http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2011/09/24/327999/joe-nocera-phony-solyndra-scandal/

===========

We'll see who eats big black crow if this dust ever settles, and if the Repugs GAFF after a couple of weeks.

Centrally planned China, with national industrial policies, and financed by $Ts of US purchases, subsidizes its (export) industries with $10Bs year, while unregulated, unguided, "free market" capitalism gets its clock cleaned and even works as an aggressive accomplice to China's economic policies.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

yeah. if I didn't do anything criminal and Congress called a hearing on it I definitely would use the Constitution to my advantage.
That tactic helped me through my adolescent years back home and, by golly, I never did anything wrong. :tu

[boutons_deux]

Seeking a Trade Rule Enforcer

America is being played.

The U.S. allowed China to join the club of trading partners in the World Trade Organization (WTO) in 2001 under the condition that China observe club rules.

Over the past decade, however, China has profited immeasurably by ignoring, flouting and circumventing the rules barring market-distorting practices. Among the most destructive of these violations is China’s deliberate undervaluing of its currency, which makes Chinese exports to the United States artificially cheap and U.S. exports to China artificially expensive.

This nurtures Chinese industry and poisons American manufacturing.

In the trade contest with China, the referees have been absent or silent or completely craven on the issue of currency undervaluation, even as it kills U.S. factories and jobs. American workers need a trade rule enforcer. With unemployment above 9 percent, the situation is desperate. American workers can’t be played anymore.

Just last week, the Economic Policy Institute (EPI), a non-partisan think tank, issued a report showing that the trade deficit with China cost the United States 2.8 million jobs since the WTO allowed China into the trading club. Every congressional district in the U.S. lost jobs as Chinese exports to the United States overwhelmed U.S. exports to China.

The trade deficit is the difference between the value of Chinese exports to the United States and U.S. exports to China. It was $84 billion the year China entered the WTO. Last year it grew to $278 billion – a 230 percent increase.

EPI also determined that China’s currency manipulation is a major cause of the trade deficit. The report explains that China has aggressively bought U.S. dollars and other foreign exchange reserves to depress the value of the yuan. Smart move, but prohibited under WTO rules.

Without this deliberate market interference, the yuan would have risen in value over the years as China’s productivity soared. But a stronger yuan would have increased the cost of Chinese products in the U.S. and decreased the cost of U.S. exports to China. That would have quashed Chinese exports and invigorated American exports, lowering the trade deficit.

http://blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy/2011/09/26/seeking-a-trade-rule-enforcer/?utm_source=feedblitz&utm_medium=FeedBlitzRss&utm_campaign=alternet#

[CosmicCowboy]

SAMs existed in the Muslim world before Libya. Why haven't they shot down planes at DFW yet?

Hey Chump, you can lick your licks and suck my dick. Your beloved liberal media is even reporting on it finally...

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/nightmare-libya-20000-surface-air-missiles-missing/story?id=14610199

Nightmare in Libya: Thousands of Surface-to-Air Missiles Unaccounted For
PHOTO: After the fall of Gadhafi's Libya, U.S. officials are concerned about the possible proliferation of thousands of portable surface-to-air missiles stockpiled in the country.


By BRIAN ROSS (@brianross) and MATTHEW COLE
Sept. 27, 2011

The White House announced today it planned to expand a program to secure and destroy Libya's huge stockpile of dangerous surface-to-air missiles, following an ABC News report that large numbers of them continue to be stolen from unguarded military warehouses.

Currently the U.S. State Department has one official on the ground in Libya, as well as five contractors who specialize in "explosive ordinance disposal", all working with the rebel Transitional National Council to find the looted missiles, White House spokesperson Jay Carney told reporters.

"We expect to deploy additional personnel to assist the TNC as they expand efforts to secure conventional arms storage sites," Carney said. "We're obviously at a governmental level -- both State Department and at the U.N. and elsewhere -- working with the TNC on this."

ABC News reported today U.S. officials and security experts were concerned some of the thousands of heat-seeking missiles could easily end up in the hands of al Qaeda or other terrorists groups, creating a threat to commercial airliners.

"Matching up a terrorist with a shoulder-fired missile, that's our worst nightmare," said Sen. Barbara Boxer, D.-California, a member of the Senate's Commerce, Energy and Transportation Committee.


Though Libya had an estimated 20,000 man-portable surface-to-air missiles before the popular uprising began in February, Assistant Secretary of State Andrew Shapiro told ABC News today the government does not have a clear picture of how many missiles they're trying to track down.

"We're making great progress and we expect in the coming days and weeks we will have a much greater picture of how many are missing," Shapiro said.

The missiles, four to six-feet long and Russian-made, can weigh just 55 pounds with launcher. They lock on to the heat generated by the engines of aircraft, can be fired from a vehicle or from a combatant's shoulder, and are accurate and deadly at a range of more than two miles.

Peter Bouckaert of Human Rights Watch first warned about the problem after a trip to Libya six months ago. He took pictures of pickup truckloads of the missiles being carted off during another trip just a few weeks ago.

"I myself could have removed several hundred if I wanted to, and people can literally drive up with pickup trucks or even 18 wheelers and take away whatever they want," said Bouckaert, HRW's emergencies director. "Every time I arrive at one of these weapons facilities, the first thing we notice going missing is the surface-to-air missiles."

The ease with which rebels and other unknown parties have snatched thousands of the missiles has raised alarms that the weapons could end up in the hands of al Qaeda, which is active in Libya.

"There certainly are dangerous groups operating in the region, and we're very concerned that some of these weapons could end up in the wrong hands," said Bouckaert.

[Yonivore]

Related comment (http://www.neptunuslex.com/2011/09/27/good-intentions/):


They’ll turn up eventually. Around Heathrow, Sheremetyevo, Reagan National and LAX. And when they do, the question will be asked, “Why in the hell didn’t we blow these caches in place, when we were running around blowing the hell out of everything else?”

And the answer will, “We thought only for the best.”

Which, once translated into the everyday language of loss and grief, will be translated to, “We were irredeemably stupid.”

[ChumpDumper]

Hey Chump, you can lick your licks and suck my dick. Your beloved liberal media is even reporting on it finally...How does this contradict anything I posted?

And why do you want a man to perform oral sex on you?

[boutons_deux]

Rupgs LYING again, yawn

Waxman to Issa: Get Solyndra facts straight

Rep. Henry Waxman (D-Calif.) is rebutting House Oversight and Government Reform Committee Chairman Darrell Issa’s (R-Calif.) claim that Waxman helped the now-bankrupt solar company Solyndra secure its $535 million federal loan guarantee.

Waxman said in a letter to Issa on Monday that he had no role in the financing.

“I am writing to let you know that I had no involvement in the selection of the Solyndra loan. In fact, the first time I met with representatives from Solyndra was in July 2011, when the company’s CEO, Brian Harrison, informed me — erroneously, it turned out — that the company’s prospects were bright,” writes Waxman, the top Democrat on the Energy and Commerce Committee.

http://thehill.com/blogs/e2-wire/677-e2-wire/184055-waxman-to-issa-get-your-facts-straight-on-solyndra

[boutons_deux]

Sen. Landrieu Reads Darrell Issa’s Letters Begging For Taxpayer Clean Energy Loans On The Senate Floor

House Oversight Committee chair Rep. Darrell Issa’s (R-CA) investigation of clean energy loan programs was undercut this week by a revelation, first reported by Bloomberg, that he had also requested money from the same program for companies in his district. A follow-up story by ThinkProgress found that an investor to the firm Issa had asked to subsidize had donated several times to Issa, including a check just shortly before Issa sent his letter to Secretary Chu.

LANDRIEU: He’s a member from California, he’s a very powerful member of the House. I’m going to read his whole letter. [...] And maybe the press even writes, ‘Darrell Issa, the Republican leader, is promoting manufacturing in California.’ Because this is what he says in his district. And this is the letter he sends to the Secretary. But when he’s in the floor of the House last night, he voted to gut this program.

ng on Sep 23, 2011 at 4:00 pm

Senator Mary Landrieu (D-LA)
House Oversight Committee chair Rep. Darrell Issa’s (R-CA) investigation of clean energy loan programs was undercut this week by a revelation, first reported by Bloomberg, that he had also requested money from the same program for companies in his district. A follow-up story by ThinkProgress found that an investor to the firm Issa had asked to subsidize had donated several times to Issa, including a check just shortly before Issa sent his letter to Secretary Chu.

Today on the Senate floor, Sen. Mary Landrieu (D-LA) mocked Issa’s hypocrisy. She carried with her copies of the letters signed by Issa, as well as other letters by Republicans asking for money for the clean energy program they had just voted to cut, and read them into the Congressional Record:

LANDRIEU: He’s a member from California, he’s a very powerful member of the House. I’m going to read his whole letter. [...] And maybe the press even writes, ‘Darrell Issa, the Republican leader, is promoting manufacturing in California.’ Because this is what he says in his district. And this is the letter he sends to the Secretary. But when he’s in the floor of the House last night, he voted to gut this program. That’s what this debate is about!

Watch it:

Earlier this week, Republicans tried to make hay out of the Solyndra controversy by taking an axe to clean energy programs. Landrieu made short work out of the GOP’s shameful gimmick.

Landrieu continued tearing into Republican hypocrisy. She noted that the cuts were purely political because the supposed offsets for FEMA only required $175 million, not $1 billion. She then continued to read Republican letters asking for clean energy loan cash, including yet another one signed by Issa (asking for money for battery-maker Quallion

=======

Issa and Repugs bitch-slapped. I'm sure Fox will run with this one.

[boutons_deux]

ThinkProgress Report Outs Republicans In The Clean-Energy Closet

A new ThinkProgress special report by Lee Fang shows that 62 Republicans from the House and Senate were once proponents of clean energy investments, sending letters asking for various clean energy-related loan guarantees, grants, and other assistance for their districts. Yet amidst the recent Solyndra controversy, many members of Congress have seized the opportunity to go on a witch-hunt against other clean energy programs authorized by the Department of Energy, from voting to defund the loan guarantee program and projects that would help employ veterans, and voting to slash funds for the clean car program that has created tens of thousands of jobs, to denouncing all clean energy grants as fraudulent, to denouncing all clean energy grants as fraudulent, and labeling green jobs as “so-called phony” jobs. These Republicans were once supportive of these government-funded green jobs in their districts. Do they still support them, or have cheap political attacks taken priority?

http://thinkprogress.org/green/2011/10/03/334177/thinkprogress-report-outs-republicans-in-the-clean-energy-closet/

====


Details at 11, on Fox Repug Propaganda network :lol

[Winehole23]

Republicans who criticized the Obama administration for providing U.S. backing to the failed Solyndra LLC sought such federal loan guarantees for cleaner-coal projects they favored.

Senator John Barrasso (http://topics.bloomberg.com/john-barrasso/) of Wyoming asked Energy Secretary Steven Chu in a Feb. 8 letter to move the “review process forward” for a project in his state to convert coal to liquid fuel. Representative Ed Whitfield of Kentucky sought support for a company that says it developed a way to make coal burn cleaner, and Representative John Shimkus (http://topics.bloomberg.com/john-shimkus/) of Illinois wrote the department seeking aid for an effort to capture and bury carbon dioxide.


Republicans including Barrasso have said the failure of Solyndra, which filed for bankruptcy after receiving $535 million in federal loan guarantees, shows President Barack Obama was wrong to pick “winners and losers” among wind- and solar-power companies.



The letters promoting coal projects show Republicans don’t mind the government picking winners if it’s for projects they want, said Jack Spencer, an energy analyst at the Washington-based Heritage Foundation (http://topics.bloomberg.com/heritage-foundation/).
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-31/solyndra-critics-sought-u-s-aid-for-coal.html

[boutons_deux]

Poll of the Day: 9 in 10 Americans Want More Solar, 8 in 10 Support Federal Solar Incentives

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Screen-shot-2011-11-01-at-10.09.27-AM.png

For the fourth year in a row, a survey conducted by independent pollster Kelton Research shows that 89% of Americans think it’s important for the U.S. to develop solar.

Even with the rancorous politics around federal investments in clean energy, the poll shows that 82% of Americans think incentives like tax credits are necessary to help build the industry.

http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2011/11/01/358248/poll-americans-solar-federal-investments/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+climateprogress%2FlCrX+%28Cli mate+Progress%29

==========

Repugs and their bosses at Fox Repug Propaganda network yet again on the wrong side of public opinion.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

i thought the entire point of these types of loans was because as with many new technology ventures there is a lot of inherent risk. thats the whole point of the governments intervention so that work can be done.

Given that reality it seems pretty stupid to freak out over every failure.

[DarrinS]

WH, boutons


You think the Solyndra scandal is about govt loans to clean energy companies?


Investments are fine, but willfully shitty investments aren't.

[Winehole23]

You think the Solyndra scandal is about govt loans to clean energy companies?Partly, yes. There's a legit gripe about competence, but I think it's mostly red team hyperventilation.

What is the Solyndra flap about, in your opinion?

[boutons_deux]

A lot of private investors, not a stupid bunch usually, also invested in Solyndra, which must have looked a lot better going in.

Darrin's hindsight, foresight, ideological blindness are great investment guides.

Natural gas and Chinese solar panel dumping are tough energy foes.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Its issues like this that has shown how far the GOP has fallen. One thing noted conservatives like Reagan and Eisenhower definitely got right was the technology policy of this country. Those two were as responsible for the development of the US electronics industry in the 1980s as anyone.

Once the party that led the charge, they resort to sniping failed ventures in just the same manner as democrats in the 1980s. At least these have been canned after a couple of years as opposed to other projects over the last century.

Does anyone have a take on actual policy direction or is this thread just about trying to pigeonhole the president to a failed particular?

[DarrinS]

Partly, yes. There's a legit gripe about competence, but I think it's mostly red team hyperventilation.

What is the Solyndra flap about, in your opinion?


Either incompetence or crony capitalism (or perhaps both).

[Winehole23]

SOP. Lobbying and personal connections to power. Any part of government you put your finger on is likely to reveal such influences. Our political system is basically legalized bribery by now.

[Ignignokt]

i thought the entire point of these types of loans was because as with many new technology ventures there is a lot of inherent risk. thats the whole point of the governments intervention so that work can be done.

Given that reality it seems pretty stupid to freak out over every failure.

Those are pleasant ways to mask corporate cronyism you hippocrit

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Those are pleasant ways to mask corporate cronyism you hippocrit

Huh? You are the one advocating laissez fair.

[Ignignokt]

Huh? You are the one advocating laissez fair.

glad you noticed.

I'm just pointing out that your stance on corporate ethics is phony. Corporate welfare is ok, aslong as it's used for the projects you approve.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

glad you noticed.

I'm just pointing out that your stance on corporate ethics is phony. Corporate welfare is ok, aslong as it's used for the projects you approve.

Where have I taken a particular stance on any individual project?

Corporate ethics implies the behavior of firms and I am not even commenting on that anyway.

[Ignignokt]

Where have I taken a particular stance on any individual project?

Corporate ethics implies the behavior of firms and I am not even commenting on that anyway.

I can't believe you're so ignorant.

You were just defending corporate cronyism or favoritism because it's govt intervention for the common good.

Obviously, your ethics come with strings attached and is based on purely phony grounds.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You were just defending corporate cronyism or favoritism because it's govt intervention for the common good.

Please point out specifically where i do this. You make these claims but fail to provide and evidence analysis or anything.

I just said that government subsidization of an industry will have failures as the need for subsidization implies a field that is inherently risky.

You just are antiestablishment and pretty mindless about it so you twist me saying that government intervention in a risk adverse field to be a blanket permission. its not.

That being said battery technology is something we desperately need innovation in. Rare earth elements are a bitch.

[Wild Cobra]

i thought the entire point of these types of loans was because as with many new technology ventures there is a lot of inherent risk. thats the whole point of the governments intervention so that work can be done.

Given that reality it seems pretty stupid to freak out over every failure.
That isn't something that should be done with tax dollars, unless it is vital to the nation. If investors see a proper payoff vs. risk, they will invest. Let the capital venturists risk their money instead of yours and mine.

It's not stupid to freak out over something that was warned against doing, and then have the money still doles out, based on agenda rather than proper risk assessments.

These people should be jailed.

[boutons_deux]

"it is vital to the nation"

non-fossil, renewable energy is extremely vital to the nation.

Much more immediate and critical is forcing the fossil fuel companies to pay for all the "externalaties" damage they commit to air, land, water, food, humans.

[Wild Cobra]

"it is vital to the nation"

non-fossil, renewable energy is extremely vital to the nation.

In your opinion. The voters of this nation as a majority disagree with you.

Why don't you rally a group of like minded people as yourself to form a charity. Collect money and you can head the foundation, and give the money to research you deem appropriate.

Put your money where your mouth is and stop using tax dollars.

[George Gervin's Afro]

In your opinion. The voters of this nation as a majority disagree with you.

Why don't you rally a group of like minded people as yourself to form a charity. Collect money and you can head the foundation, and give the money to research you deem appropriate.

Put your money where your mouth is and stop using tax dollars.


I would think the majority of voters would prefer thier air not be polluted unecessarily...just sayin

[boutons_deux]

A Gold Rush of Subsidies in the Search for Clean Energy

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/11/12/business/12subsidy-span/12subsidy-span-articleLarge.jpg

A great deal of attention has been focused on Solyndra, a start-up that received $528 million in federal loans to develop cutting-edge solar technology before it went bankrupt, but nearly 90 percent of the $16 billion in clean-energy loans guaranteed by the federal government since 2009 went to subsidize these lower-risk power plants, which in many cases were backed by big companies with vast resources.

When the Obama administration and Congress expanded the clean-energy incentives in 2009, a gold-rush mentality took over.

As NRG’s chief executive, David W. Crane, put it to Wall Street analysts early this year, the government’s largess was a once-in-a-generation opportunity, and “we intend to do as much of this business as we can get our hands on.” NRG, along with partners, ultimately secured $5.2 billion in federal loan guarantees plus hundreds of millions in other subsidies for four large solar projects.

“I have never seen anything that I have had to do in my 20 years in the power industry that involved less risk than these projects,” he said in a recent interview. “It is just filling the desert with panels.”

From 2007 to 2010, federal subsidies jumped to $14.7 billion from $5.1 billion, according to a recent study.

Most of the surge came from the economic stimulus bill, which was passed in 2009 and financed an Energy Department loan guarantee program and a separate Treasury Department grant program that were promoted as important in creating green jobs.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/images/newsgraphics/2011/1111-biz-SUBSIDY/1112-biz-webSUBSIDY.png

===========

Seems like a lot of $Bs?

compare with the sure-fire positives if solar/wind energy production with the well-known negatives of wasting/burning $100B/year, year after year, in Iraq and Afghanistan, or at total of $1.5T/year year after year for DoD, NatSec, DoState budgets to maintain the UCA's imperial empire against a bunch of ragheads.

Unlimited $Ts for guns, while we have to fight for a few $Bs for butter.

[Stringer_Bell]

Hey everybody, what about this "oops" moment? See, it happens to everyone. Let's HUMANIZE the living shit outta of these events!

http://barackobamasucks.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/obama-pledge-of-allegiance.jpg

[greyforest]

People don't want to pay taxes here because a large proportion of taxes aren't spent back on the society. US tax money is stolen and squandered at every possible point that it can be.

All government "waste" exists for a reason -- to funnel money in to the proper coffers. Seemingly nothing the government does is very efficient, because the incentive to steal and lack of oversight/criminality is too tempting a combination.

I don't understand why anyone thinks either political party is any different from the other in this aspect.

[boutons_deux]

Clean Energy Has Highest Documented Rate of Return of Any Federal Program, But the WashPost Cluelessly Smears the Effort

The National Academy of Sciences concluded in 2001 that a handful of clean energy technologies returned about $30 billion on an R&D investment of about $400 million. The United States is an amazing venture capitalist when it comes to clean energy R&D.

n 1997, the President’s Council of Advisors on Science and Technology (PCAST) recommended doubling the energy efficiency budget from $450 million to $880 million, noting “the return for this portion of the government investment would be on the order of 40 to 1–a cost to the government of about $5 per ton of carbon” with annual fuel cost savings of $75 to $95 billion in 2020, and reductions in oil consumption of 4 to 10 million barrels of oil a day by 2030.

(which is the last thing the Kock Bros and other oil extortionists want to prevent)

http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2011/11/13/367252/clean-energy-return-federal-program/

[spursncowboys]

Greyforest: very good point. I also hate the idea that the people who do not pay taxes get a vast more of the resources that the tax money goes to. Also the thing I hate the most is paying a tax on something that someone already paid the tax for. like the truck i just bought that has been sold atleast twice before me.

[ChumpDumper]

lol vast more

[boutons_deux]

"US tax money is stolen and squandered"

bloated,corrupt defense budget with $300B more spent per year than is justifiable, imperial wars and garrisoning the planet, $1.5T+ PER YEAR more spent on health care than would be spent in other countries that get better outcomes, etc, etc.

If the Repugs were really anti-government and anti-regulations, they would foment a tax revolt as some did in the VN war. But the Repugs actually suck $Bs out of the govt and write/abuse regulations to their profit.

[boutons_deux]

Anybody remember this Repug investment? Where were the Repugs whining about dubya wasting taxpayer $$ ?

The Demise of FutureGen

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/15/AR2008021503186.html

If FutureGen was such a good idea, why didn't private investors go it alone?

Chu has restarted it with FutureGen 2.0, but ...

Large-Scale Carbon Capture and Storage: Feasibility, Permanence and Safety Issues Remain Unresolved

http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2011/11/26/376257/carbon-capture-and-storage-permanence-feasibility-and-safety-issues/

[boutons_deux]

Koch-Fueled Americans for Prosperity Spends $2.4 Million on Solyndra Attack Ad
(VIDEO)

In its latest advertisement, a 60-second spot that has been running heavily in places across Florida, Michigan, Nevada and Virginia, an announcer repeatedly names Solyndra, the government-backed solar power company that went bankrupt and has become a focus of conservative anger over wasteful spending.

Then it suggests that Solyndra’s political ties to Democrats played a role in its winning a government loan guarantee: “Is this the change we’re supposed to believe in? Tell President Obama you shouldn’t use taxpayer dollars for political favors.”

An analysis from Kantar Media showed that in recent weeks Americans for Prosperity has already spent $2.4 million buying airtime for the advertisement, which has been broadcast nearly 4,000 times.

http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2011/11/28/377053/koch-americans-for-prosperity-solyndra-attack-ad-video/

[boutons_deux]

Solar Power Much Cheaper to Produce Than Most Analysts Realize, Study Finds

http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2011/12/11/387108/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Screen-shot-2011-06-08-at-3.20.01-PM.png

http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2011/12/11/387108/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/solarpanels.jpg

http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2011/12/11/387108/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/photovoltaic-cost.jpg


The public is being kept in the dark about the viability of solar photovoltaic energy, according to a study conducted at Queen’s University.

“Many analysts project a higher cost for solar photovoltaic energy because they don’t consider recent technological advancements and price reductions,” says [co-author] Joshua Pearce, Adjunct Professor, Department of Mechanical and Materials Engineering. “Older models for determining solar photovoltaic energy costs are too conservative.”

Dr. Pearce believes solar photovoltaic systems are near the “tipping point” where they can produce energy for about the same price other traditional sources of energy.

That’s the news release for a new journal article, “A review of solar photovoltaic levelized cost of electricity” (subs. req’d). The analysis concludes:

Given the state of the art in the technology and favourable financing terms it is clear that PV has already obtained grid parity in specific locations and as installed costs continue to decline, grid electricity prices continue to escalate, and industry experience increases, PV will become an increasingly economically advantageous source of electricity over expanding geographical regions.

That argument is one Climate Progress and others have been making for a while (see ‘Ferocious Cost Reductions’ Make Solar PV Competitive and Utility CEO on Solar: In “3 to 5 Years You’ll Be Able to Get Power Cheaper from the Roof of Your House Than From the Grid”.)

Here’s more for the news release (plus some more must-have CP charts):

Analysts look at many variables to determine the cost of solar photovoltaic systems for consumers, including installation and maintenance costs, finance charges, the system’s life expectancy, and the amount of electricity it generates.

Dr. Pearce says some studies don’t consider the 70 per cent reduction in the cost of solar panels since 2009 . Furthermore, he says research now shows the productivity of top-of-the-line solar panels only drops between 0.1 and 0.2 percent annually, which is much less than the one per cent used in many cost analyses.

Equipment costs are determined based on dollars per watt of electricity produced. One 2010 study estimated this cost at $7.61, while a 2003 study set the amount at $4.16. According to Dr. Pearce, the real cost in 2011 is under $1 per watt for solar panels purchased in bulk on the global market, though he says system and installation costs vary widely.

http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2011/12/11/387108/solar-power-much-cheaper-than-most-realize-study/

[boutons_deux]

ooops!

Second Romney-Backed Solar Company Files For Bankruptcy

On Thursday, Mitt Romney campaigned at the headquarters of Solyndra — the first renewable energy company to receive a federal loan under the stimulus — and reiterated his debunked claims that its bankruptcy symbolized the corruption and cronyism of the Obama administration. But just one day later, a solar panel developer “that landed a state loan from Mitt Romney when he was Massachusetts governor” went belly up, the Boston Herald reports, creating an inconvenient storyline for the GOP presidential nominee.

The company, Konarka Technologies, “filed for Chapter 7 bankruptcy protection and will cease operations, lay off its 85 workers and liquidate”:

“Konarka has been unable to obtain additional financing, and given its current financial condition, it is unable to continue operations,” CEO Howard Berke said in a statement. “This is a tragedy for Konarka’s shareholders and employees and for the development of alternative energy in the United States.”

The demise of Konarka could become a hot topic on the campaign trail because Romney personally doled out a $1.5 million renewable energy subsidy to the Lowell startup in 2003, shortly after taking office on Beacon Hill.

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2012/06/02/494111/romney-solyndra-konarka/

So what was Romney's MA doing "in the business of picking winners and losers"?

:lol :lol :lol

This will be a huge talking point on the Fox Repug Propaganda network for weeks!

[Wild Cobra]

So? At least it was an operational company. Different details. Others in the same category took gig hits too.

[Clipper Nation]

Romney is really the exact same as Obama, tbh. Pretty sad that people who identify as "conservative" will vote for this clown because he has an R next to his name.

[boutons_deux]

"Romney is really the exact same as Obama"

Total bullshit

[boutons_deux]

CNN On Solyndra Loan: Bush Started It, There’s No Evidence of Wrongdoing, And Romney’s Attacks Are Made Up

CNN has two dynamite pieces on Solyndra, “Romney wrong on Solyndra facts” and “Seven things you should know about Solyndra.”

The first one, by Steve Hargreaves of CNN Money, ends:

It’s one thing to spin something to one’s advantage. It’s another to simply make things up to make the other guy look bad. Romney’s Solyndra speech was an example of the latter. Disgraceful.

Hargreaves shows that Mitt Romney’s key claim — “An independent inspector general looked at this investment and concluded that the Administration had steered money to friends and family and campaign contributors” — has no basis in fact.

The second piece, also by Hargreaves, lists 7 key facts:

1. It was started by Bush: The DOE loan program that funded Solyndra was actually started by President Bush in 2005. It was intended to provide government support for “innovative technologies”….

In fact, as Climate Progress reported back in September, the “Bush Administration advanced the Solyndra loan guarantee for two years” before Obama became President.

2. Congress thought there would be more failures: Two companies have declared bankruptcy under the loan program so far, out of the 33 projects funded. Congress was expecting more….

Congress appropriated money to cover expected losses, and multiple independent reviews have confirmed that the actual losses will likely be less than Congress expected.

3. Solyndra wanted more: The company applied for another $468 million in funding shortly after its first DOE loan closed. The government did not award the second request.

4. Taxpayers aren’t the only losers: Private investors lost almost twice what the government did — nearly $1 billion.

While much has been made that the largest private investor was an Obama supporter, the second largest was a fund controlled by the Walton family — of Wal-Mart fame. Walton family members are noted Republican donors.

5. The renewable program is closed: The renewables loan program that funded Solyndra and other wind and solar ventures is now over. There is still $170 million available for renewables under a separate program that also handles nuclear power….

6. No smoking gun with Solyndra wrongdoing: Last week Mitt Romney said an inspector general “looked at this investment and concluded that the administration had steered money to friends and family.”

That appears to be incorrect, as no evidence of undue influence peddling by the White House has been uncovered in an official, independent report.

As a major Bloomberg analysis of Solyndra and the media hype of the story concluded, “The Focus on Solyndra Is Not Proportional to Its Impact.”

7. Solyndra isn’t a typical solar company: Solyndra did not make regular, flat solar panels.

It made a more advanced, cylinder-shaped device designed to capture the sun’s rays on its entire surface — hence the company’s name.

It was the rapidly declining price of traditional, flat solar panels and silicon – mostly from China — that did the company in.

Precisely.

Put it all together and you can understand why a major analysis by the Center for American Progress concluded that federal loans and loan guarantees have a huge benefit but a low and predictable cost.


http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2012/06/06/495791/cnn-solyndra-loan-bush-started-no-evidence-of-wrong-doing-romney-attacks-are-made-up/

[Wild Cobra]

We went over this before ShazBot.

The Bush Administration rejected this for Solyndra. Sure, they started the program for such financing. That doesn't mean they are to blame.

[TeyshaBlue]

lol thinkprogress.

[boutons_deux]

Once-Mighty Suntech Struggles to Survive

The world's largest supplier of solar panels, Suntech Power, based in Wuxi, China, is teetering on the brink of insolvency. The Chinese business icon (see "Solar's Great Leap Forward") will likely survive, but its woes show how it's become nearly impossible for any company to be profitable selling solar panels.

Suntech's founder (and solar industry pioneer) Zhengrong Shi has been replaced as CEO by former chief financial officer David King, a Chinese-American who joined the company last year.

The surprise move is meant to get Suntech's financial house in order after four consecutive unprofitable quarters and a stock price that has fallen more than 50 percent this year. The company has a crushing debt load of over $2.2 billion and says it was a victim of a fraud involving solar projects in Europe that could further damage its balance sheet.

In many ways, Suntech is suffering from the stifling market conditions it helped create. To achieve greater scale, it borrowed heavily and rapidly expanded production to lower solar panel costs and keep pace with competitors (see "The Chinese Solar Machine"). But now, the market is flooded with panels, and the leading Chinese solar manufacturers are overextended financially.

http://www.technologyreview.com/news/428935/once-mighty-suntech-struggles-to-survive/?ref=rss

[Yonivore]

Romney is really the exact same as Obama, tbh. Pretty sad that people who identify as "conservative" will vote for this clown because he has an R next to his name.
Because, the people that do so realize Romney and Obama are not the same.

[boutons_deux]

Special Interest Groups Spent Nearly $11 Million On Solyndra Attack Ads Since April — But They Didn’t Work (http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2012/10/10/987251/exclusive-special-interest-groups-spent-nearly-11-million-on-solyndra-attack-ads-since-april/)

When the solar manufacturing company Solyndra went bankrupt (http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2011/09/01/310408/gop-solyndra-bankruptcy/) last September after receiving a $527 million loan guarantee, it sparked a politically-motivated Congressional investigation into the White House’s handling of the program — an “investigation” that critics admitted would “stop on election day (http://eenews.net/public/EEDaily/2012/03/21/1).”

After acquiring 300,000 documents, holding a dozen hearings and official meetings, issuing two subpenas, and spending more than a million dollars (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0212/73400.html) on the investigation, members of Congress failed to present any evidence of political wrongdoing.

Congressional critics have “not shown the loan was granted as a result of political favoritism, despite repeated campaign-trail claims,” reported The Hill. (http://thehill.com/blogs/e2-wire/e2-wire/241869-gop-report-solyndra-collapse-a-cautionary-tale-of-political-pressures)
That didn’t stop special interest groups from spending millions of dollars on television ads this campaign season to trump up the Solyndra bankruptcy and spread “over-the-top, ultimately ridiculous (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/over-the-top-attacks-on-obamas-green-energy-programs/2012/04/29/gIQAx9XeqT_blog.html?hpid=z3)” claims about clean energy programs.

According to a ThinkProgress analysis of independent advertisements from Kantar Media’s CMAG system, outside conservative groups spent $10.78 million on presidential campaign ads between April 1 and October 1 of this year specifically attacking the Solyndra loan or mentioning Solyndra as part of a broader attack on clean energy stimulus spending.

The ads were purchased by the American Energy Alliance, the American Future Fund, the Koch-backed Americans for Prosperity, Karl Rove’s Crossroads Grassroots Policy Strategies, and Let Freedom Ring.

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2012/10/10/987251/exclusive-special-interest-groups-spent-nearly-11-million-on-solyndra-attack-ads-since-april/

But there's still time for "social welfare" PACs to swift-boat Barry

[DarrinS]

lol thinkprogress

[boutons_deux]

lol thinkprogress

:lol Solyndra FABBRICATED, HYPED SCANDAL & OUTRAGE.

[boutons_deux]

U.S. Solar Industry Points to Evidence of Chinese Government's Escalating Intervention in World Renewable-Energy Markets
Chinese solar manufacturers have suffered tremendous business losses as a result of massive over-production, billions of dollars of Chinese government subsidies and dumped export pricing, according to the Coalition for American Solar Manufacturing (CASM). Now that Chinese producers face potential import duties to counter their illegal trade practices in the United States and Europe, CASM said, the Chinese government this week has revealed plans to invest more than $11 billion to create a domestic solar market to further buoy its manufacturers and their export drive.

The massive new intervention, combined with recent Chinese government decisions to take new direct and indirect ownership stakes in at least one top Chinese producer to prop up its foundering operations, demonstrates the Chinese government's resolve to perpetuate damaging distortions in the world solar-technology market at any cost, CASM said. Left to contend with unfettered forces of supply and demand, the group said, many Chinese companies would be forced to curtail or close operations and lay off workers, just as more than two-dozen U.S. solar producers have had to do.

"China's green mercantilism strategy is to run out the clock," Matthew Stepp and Clifton Yen of the Information Technology and Innovation Foundation wrote in a recent article posted on Forbes' website. "China knows it just needs to dial up the subsidies for only a little while longer until American producers give up or go bankrupt. Once it knocks out foreign producers, Chinese solar manufacturers will dominate global production and can increase their prices."

http://www.altenergymag.com/news/2012/11/02/us-solar-industry-points-to-evidence-of-chinese-government39s-escalating-intervention-in-world-renewable-energy-markets/26959

And America competes with?

"free market/globalism" bullshit and killing govt support for solar/wind companies.

[CosmicCowboy]

Solar Power Much Cheaper to Produce Than Most Analysts Realize, Study Finds

http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2011/12/11/387108/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Screen-shot-2011-06-08-at-3.20.01-PM.png

http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2011/12/11/387108/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/solarpanels.jpg

http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2011/12/11/387108/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/photovoltaic-cost.jpg


The public is being kept in the dark about the viability of solar photovoltaic energy, according to a study conducted at Queen’s University.

“Many analysts project a higher cost for solar photovoltaic energy because they don’t consider recent technological advancements and price reductions,” says [co-author] Joshua Pearce, Adjunct Professor, Department of Mechanical and Materials Engineering. “Older models for determining solar photovoltaic energy costs are too conservative.”

Dr. Pearce believes solar photovoltaic systems are near the “tipping point” where they can produce energy for about the same price other traditional sources of energy.

That’s the news release for a new journal article, “A review of solar photovoltaic levelized cost of electricity” (subs. req’d). The analysis concludes:

Given the state of the art in the technology and favourable financing terms it is clear that PV has already obtained grid parity in specific locations and as installed costs continue to decline, grid electricity prices continue to escalate, and industry experience increases, PV will become an increasingly economically advantageous source of electricity over expanding geographical regions.

That argument is one Climate Progress and others have been making for a while (see ‘Ferocious Cost Reductions’ Make Solar PV Competitive and Utility CEO on Solar: In “3 to 5 Years You’ll Be Able to Get Power Cheaper from the Roof of Your House Than From the Grid”.)

Here’s more for the news release (plus some more must-have CP charts):

Analysts look at many variables to determine the cost of solar photovoltaic systems for consumers, including installation and maintenance costs, finance charges, the system’s life expectancy, and the amount of electricity it generates.

Dr. Pearce says some studies don’t consider the 70 per cent reduction in the cost of solar panels since 2009 . Furthermore, he says research now shows the productivity of top-of-the-line solar panels only drops between 0.1 and 0.2 percent annually, which is much less than the one per cent used in many cost analyses.

Equipment costs are determined based on dollars per watt of electricity produced. One 2010 study estimated this cost at $7.61, while a 2003 study set the amount at $4.16. According to Dr. Pearce, the real cost in 2011 is under $1 per watt for solar panels purchased in bulk on the global market, though he says system and installation costs vary widely.

http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2011/12/11/387108/solar-power-much-cheaper-than-most-realize-study/

Dudes, this is the time to do solar if you are ever going to, I'm taking bids right now on my house. Prices are way down ...I'm getting bids of under $3 a watt installed and that's before the CPS rebate and tax credit. I'm pretty sure CPS is gonna stop the rebates soon because of their commitment to solar farms. This is how one bid broke down:

7.35 KW system

total cost $26,970

less CPS rebate of $12,839

new cost $14,131

less Federal tax credit $4239

Total out of pocket cost $9892

[CosmicCowboy]

Oh yeah...saves about $1200 a year on utilities at current rates. That's a 12.13% ROI that is untaxed.

[Drachen]

Oh yeah...saves about $1200 a year on utilities at current rates. That's a 12.13% ROI that is untaxed.

Sadly, my roof, while not messed up at all, hasn't been replaced in about 16 years. I need to do that before I install solar.

[CosmicCowboy]

Sadly, my roof, while not messed up at all, hasn't been replaced in about 16 years. I need to do that before I install solar.

Is it a shingle roof? They have solar PV shingles now. Do both at the same time.You could just replace the solar section now with the PV shingles, then do the rest when the roof wears out.

http://www.dowpowerhouse.com/index.htm?gclid=CPPimM_0uLMCFWGnPAodKTEAZA

[Drachen]

not that I have the money for that anyway, but that looks to be the way to go.

[TeyshaBlue]

not that I have the money for that anyway, but that looks to be the way to go.

Do what I do. Rob liquor stores on the way home from work.

[CosmicCowboy]

not that I have the money for that anyway, but that looks to be the way to go.


San Antonio Credit Union
A deep commitment to long-term sustainability drives SACU to create innovative products that support our community to build a better tomorrow.
SACU proudly introduces its first environmentally friendly Solar Home Improvement Loan, designed to impact our neighborhoods and those who seek to reduce their carbon footprint and their overall energy costs.
What is It?
This unique loan is designed to finance the installation of solar energy improvements on your home, including solar arrays, solar hot water heaters or other improvements generated through a solar system.
Guidelines:
Loan term up to 30 years.
Loan amount up to $80,000
To check current rates, visit sacu.com
CPS Energy rebates can be applied, subject to CPS Energy

rates are currently about 5%. That still gives you a 7% rate of return.

[Drachen]

Do what I do. Rob liquor stores on the way home from work.

Eh, they all know my face. I spend exorbitant sums of money there every week.

[TeyshaBlue]

Eh, they all know my face. I spend exorbitant sums of money there every week.
:lol

[Drachen]

rates are currently about 5%. That still gives you a 7% rate of return.

I will look into this and I am not trying to argue your trying to help me, but I believe this is a home equity loan and this is something I don't have at the moment. If it isn't a home equity loan then I may take a second look. Perhaps I can structure it to be long enough to cost X dollars and generate enough power to save me => X. That way it would be at worst a wash that pays off when I sell.

[CosmicCowboy]

I will look into this and I am not trying to argue your trying to help me, but I believe this is a home equity loan and this is something I don't have at the moment. If it isn't a home equity loan then I may take a second look. Perhaps I can structure it to be long enough to cost X dollars and generate enough power to save me => X. That way it would be at worst a wash that pays off when I sell.

Yeah, certainly not trying to push you into anything...just pointing out that in my opinion this is a window of opportunity that is about to close. I heard a CPS bigwig on the radio a couple of weeks ago and he was saying they were going to focus on big solar grid systems and probably end the residential rebates. They have about a million dollars left dedicated to the program and i suspect that when thats gone it's gone and the numbers just don't work without that big rebate.

Of course, fuzzylumpkins will now come in here and point out that I am an asshole for playing the system and letting other people pay for my solar system. They do these rebates and tax credits to influence consumer behavior. I'm an early adopter and subject to behavioral influence that makes sense financially. Guilty as fucking charged.

[Drachen]

Yeah, certainly not trying to push you into anything...just pointing out that in my opinion this is a window of opportunity that is about to close. I heard a CPS bigwig on the radio a couple of weeks ago and he was saying they were going to focus on big solar grid systems and probably end the residential rebates. They have about a million dollars left dedicated to the program and i suspect that when thats gone it's gone and the numbers just don't work without that big rebate.

Of course, fuzzylumpkins will now come in here and point out that I am an asshole for playing the system and letting other people pay for my solar system. They do these rebates and tax credits to influence consumer behavior. I'm an early adopter and subject to behavioral influence that makes sense financially. Guilty as fucking charged.

Yeah, for sure. If it works out I am in, but I am a tax and spend liberal, so it is only my nature.

[CosmicCowboy]

Yeah, for sure. If it works out I am in, but I am a tax and spend liberal, so it is only my nature.

you can go here and register and they will contact 3 certified providers to bid your house. It explains all the rebates and credits. You don't even have to meet the contractors unless you have a biting dog in your yard. I've done everything by phone/email so far.

http://www.solarsanantonio.org/

[mouse]

not that I have the money for that anyway,

The 4.6 Billion NASA wasted trying to find a cockroach fossil on Mars would have shingled many homes.

[CosmicCowboy]

The 4.6 Billion NASA wasted trying to find a cockroach fossil on Mars would have shingled many homes.

I thought you said that was faked?

[Drachen]

I thought you said that was faked?

Don't call him out on that. You can't expect him to keep two thoughts in his head at the same time.

[mouse]

I thought you said that was faked?

psssssst! Apollo 11

[mouse]

Don't call him out on that. You can't expect him to keep two thoughts in his head at the same time.

You calling me out for a live debate?