CERN breaks the speed of light?

[MannyIsGod]

Wow?

Per CNN Twitter.

[clambake]

that must be why R.E.M. broke up.

[MannyIsGod]

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_BREAKING_LIGHT_SPEED?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Never a fan of political science.

[Drachen]

45 minutes and only 3 replies? (one by the OP?) Holy crap this is awesome! I am trying to temper my excitement just a little until it is independantly verifiied by a bunch of other scientists, but if true it opens up a whole lot more. Thanks for the info Manny... I will have to figure out a way to follow this. Is this what twitter is for?

[cantthinkofanything]

Reply #5

Wow. This seems neat.

[4>0rings]

Einstein a dumbass?

[lefty]

And now, let's go back in 2001, shall we ?

[Drachen]

Einstein a dumbass?

That's what you get when you learn physics from a math failure.

[ElNono]

Since the particles were clocked at 300,006 kilometres per second (that's just a tiny fraction faster than the speed of light, 299,792 km/sec), I think waiting for confirmation would be prudent.

If verified, it would be really interesting, although doesn't necessarily contradicts Einstein.

There's various theories on how you could travel faster than light by manipulating space-time (Alcubierre drive, traversable wormhole). They just haven't really been investigated much seeing nothing was found (at least up to now) to travel faster than light.

[Drachen]

Be cool to see Agloco weigh in.

[lefty]

Still too slow for travel, would take me 10 billion light years to get to XMMXCS 2215-1734.












Massive galaxy cluster found 10 billion light years away

June 6, 2006 (http://www.physorg.com/archive/06-06-2006/)

article (http://www.physorg.com/news68820846.html)
comments (0) (http://www.physorg.com/news68820846.html#comments)
share (http://www.physorg.com/news68820846.html#share)

A University of Sussex astronomer is the lead researcher for a project that has led to the discovery of the most distant cluster of galaxies observed to date. The cluster, which is 10 billion light years from Earth, is also likely to be the most massive yet found at such an early era in the Universe.
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When Dr Kathy Romer set up the study eight years ago, she thought she was taking a huge gamble. "Although we predicted that we would find clusters at such large distances, we had no guarantees that we'd find any."
Dr Romer, whose team includes Sussex astrophysicist Professor Andrew Liddle and colleagues at other UK and American institutions, used observations from the European X-ray Multi Mirror (XMM) Newton satellite to find this new cluster and then determined its distance using the 10-meter W. M. Keck telescope in Hawaii. "But its not just telescopes that are needed for a project like this,'' comments Dr Romer. "We have also taken full advantage of recent advantages in computing; from new image processing algorithms to the falling price of disk storage."
When viewed with an optical telescope, the distant cluster is revealed as a dense gathering of hundreds of galaxies. "The surprise here is that the galaxies in this cluster are built up from old stars; one would expect that such a distant cluster would be full of new stars, since we are viewing it so far back toward the Big Bang," says Dr Romer. "Clusters like this are vital to our understanding of how galaxies formed."
The cluster, named XMMXCS 2215-1734 is surprisingly massive, weighing approximately 500 trillion times the mass of our sun. Most of the mass is "dark matter," a mysterious form of matter that dominates the mass of all galaxies and clusters in the Universe but cannot be seen by telescopes. Romer and her team are continuing the search for more clusters like XMMXCS 2215-1734 in the XMM-Newton data archive. They already have more than 1000 other candidate galaxy clusters that require confirmation using ground-based optical telescopes. Ultimately they will use their collection of clusters to better understand the physics of the Big Bang.
While the search for more clusters continues, the team will be studying XMMXCS 2215-1734 in more detail, with all the tools available. Already images have been taken by the Hubble Space Telescope of this exciting object. The galaxy cluster is a fossil of the early Universe and, therefore, will be treasured by all astronomers, says Dr Romer.
Source: University of Sussex

[MannyIsGod]

45 minutes and only 3 replies? (one by the OP?) Holy crap this is awesome! I am trying to temper my excitement just a little until it is independantly verifiied by a bunch of other scientists, but if true it opens up a whole lot more. Thanks for the info Manny... I will have to figure out a way to follow this. Is this what twitter is for?

They had other scientists independently verify the results before releasing the data because it was so opposite of the fundamentals. They're now asking scientists in the US and Japan to try and duplicate the results.

Shit like this always reminds me how much of a geek/nerd I am. When I read this I was like wow thats the biggest news of the day. Then I realized all anyone cares about is shit like facebook and Obama waving.

[Drachen]

Still too slow for travel, would take me 10 billion light years to get to XMMXCS 2215-1734.




It is travelling faster than the speed of light so it would take <10B light years...

[MannyIsGod]

What I really want to know is how soon can we translate this discovery into warp drive

[ElNono]

What I really want to know is how soon can we translate this discovery into warp drive

We just need all those neutrinos to push a cart! :lol

[lefty]

It is travelling faster than the speed of light so it would take <10B light years...
lol Usain Bolt

[vy65]

Lefty - my nig - who's the fine piece of meat in your sig?

[ElNono]

Lefty - my nig - who's the fine piece of meat in your sig?

Gabby Jeanne (http://www.wealthywheels.com/gabby-jeanne/)

[vy65]

^^ God bless you and your family son.

[hater]

nailbiting stuff

[cantthinkofanything]

^^ God bless you and your family son.

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2010/7/25/83c41a8d-7b62-41fd-806d-00f4e46098ac.jpg

[lefty]

Gabby Jeanne (http://www.wealthywheels.com/gabby-jeanne/)
Thank you!

(seriously I was looking for her name)

[CosmicCowboy]

They had other scientists independently verify the results before releasing the data because it was so opposite of the fundamentals. They're now asking scientists in the US and Japan to try and duplicate the results.

Shit like this always reminds me how much of a geek/nerd I am. When I read this I was like wow thats the biggest news of the day. Then I realized all anyone cares about is shit like facebook and Obama waving.

We're not worthy.

[ElNono]

^^ God bless you and your family son.


Thank you!

(seriously I was looking for her name)

You two need to go to tineye.com and get their plugin for your browser.

This is how I found it:

http://www.tineye.com/search/53f2b640c264a97e7a5e4dddf06d504173dd757b/?pluginver=safari-1.0

[ElNono]

lol, just noticed her name is also on lefty's linked image:

impp_1103_03_o gabby_jeanne profile.jpg

[lefty]

lol, just noticed her name is also on lefty's linked image:

impp_1103_03_o gabby_jeanne profile.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-zvEn9ZVNe1M/Tmg9jWCOgsI/AAAAAAAAADM/izA2Csb69es/s400/homer-doh.jpg

[cantthinkofanything]

lol, just noticed her name is also on lefty's linked image:

impp_1103_03_o gabby_jeanne profile.jpg

great site. It's how I find out who Lefty's obscure soccer avatars are.

[lefty]

You two need to go to tineye.com and get their plugin for your browser.

This is how I found it:

http://www.tineye.com/search/53f2b640c264a97e7a5e4dddf06d504173dd757b/?pluginver=safari-1.0
God bless you!

[MannyIsGod]

We're not worthy.

You're just not a geek.

[baseline bum]

Wow, that would really be mind-blowing if it can be reproduced, especially since the neutrino is thought to have mass.

[lefty]

Wow, that would really be mind-blowing if it can be reproduced, especially since the neutrino is thought to have mass.
And now we're back on topic

[MannyIsGod]

The #mundaneneutrinoexplanations tag on twitter is pretty funny right now.

[LnGrrrR]

When I read this I was like wow thats the biggest news of the last 50 years.

Fify

[cantthinkofanything]

Wait...is this how Thor got to Earth?

[CosmicCowboy]

You're just not a geek.

LOL and you know that how? Mine are more earth science related interests (growing fruits, berries, vegetables, wine making, fish farming, etc.) but still an inquisitive and open mind. I'm certainly not allergic to physics, astronomy, meteorology etc.

[velik_m]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrino#Speed

[MannyIsGod]

LOL and you know that how? Mine are more earth science related interests (growing fruits, berries, vegetables, wine making, fish farming, etc.) but still an inquisitive and open mind. I'm certainly not allergic to physics, astronomy, meteorology etc.

Man you took my initial post way too personally and you took the subsequent one even more personally. Neither was a shot at you. You're worth and you're a geek. Happy?

[Yonivore]

It is travelling faster than the speed of light so it would take <10B light years...
9.9928668093B Light Years, I believe. And, Manny, you're not alone...this is pretty cool shit.

[MannyIsGod]

9.9928668093B Light Years, I believe. And, Manny, you're not alone...this is pretty cool shit.

:tu

[Viva Las Espuelas]

I'm guessing a liberal ran the test? Conservative maybe? Or was it funded by solyndra? Hmm.

[Wild Cobra]

I don't think any rational scientist was fixed on the notion that the speed of light was "it."

Any who are/were, do not follow scientific rules of being a skeptic first.

[Agloco]

Be cool to see Agloco weigh in.

That bastard Manny is trying to steal my thunder.......:lol

J/K of course, good find. I knew about it before you though :p:

I really haven't had a chance to delve into it much yet although I got a call a few days ago from a colleague regarding this. I'll post thoughts later this evening (I've got a hot sushi date first.....).

At any rate, it will be interesting to see what level the uncertainty is at.

[Drachen]

9.9928668093B Light Years, I believe. And, Manny, you're not alone...this is pretty cool shit.


Yeah, like I said <10B!

[Wild Cobra]

At any rate, it will be interesting to see what level the uncertainty is at.
No kidding. What if somehow the measurement was off.

[MannyIsGod]

I belive the moe was 10 nanoseconds and they recorded it at 40 nanoseconds faster than it should have been.

[MannyIsGod]

I don't think any rational scientist was fixed on the notion that the speed of light was "it."

Any who are/were, do not follow scientific rules of being a skeptic first.

Except that the speed of light being "it" was (may still be) a fundemental of physics.

[MannyIsGod]

That bastard Manny is trying to steal my thunder.......:lol

J/K of course, good find. I knew about it before you though :p:

I really haven't had a chance to delve into it much yet although I got a call a few days ago from a colleague regarding this. I'll post thoughts later this evening (I've got a hot sushi date first.....).

At any rate, it will be interesting to see what level the uncertainty is at.

Lol. In all honestly when I heard the news "I wonder what agloco has to say about this" went through my head fairly quickly.

[Wild Cobra]

Wouldn't it be interesting if we found all elementary particles had a unique maximum speed?

[Drachen]

I belive the moe was 10 nanoseconds and they recorded it at 40 nanoseconds faster than it should have been.

It was 60 nanoseconds and a 10 nanosecond Margin of error.

[Borat Sagyidev]

That bastard Manny is trying to steal my thunder.......:lol

J/K of course, good find. I knew about it before you though :p:

I really haven't had a chance to delve into it much yet although I got a call a few days ago from a colleague regarding this. I'll post thoughts later this evening (I've got a hot sushi date first.....).

At any rate, it will be interesting to see what level the uncertainty is at.


No kidding. What if somehow the measurement was off.


Neutrinos are a pain in the a* to measure. I bet the statistics are pretty hard to confine on this experiment.
:bang

[Wild Cobra]

Did anyone check their local clock with an external clock I wonder?

What if somehow, the tremendous rotating magnetic force, slowed the local time down?

Just a thought. I don't believe it necessarily happened, so don't beat me up over it.

Captain Spock:
An ancestor of mine maintained that when you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

[Drachen]

Did anyone check their local clock with an external clock I wonder?

What if somehow, the tremendous rotating magnetic force, slowed the local time down?

Just a thought. I don't believe it necessarily happened, so don't beat me up over it.

I guess they COULD be the absent minded professor...

[Yonivore]

I guess they COULD be the absent minded professor...
Hey, they're apparently no Einsteins.

[m>s]

velocity is a relative thing which has no theoretical limits, there actually exist things faster than light but you can't see them because they are even faster than your eyesight.

[Agloco]

velocity is a relative thing which has no theoretical limits, there actually exist things faster than light but you can't see them because they are even faster than your eyesight.

:wtf

This is gonna require another round of sake.

[Drachen]

:wtf

This is gonna require another round of sake.

I was thinking perhaps another round of absinthe.

[Yonivore]

velocity is a relative thing which has no theoretical limits, there actually exist things faster than light but you can't see them because they are even faster than your eyesight.
For proof, just watch "The Incredibles." You really can't see that kid put the tack in the teacher's chair. I've watched it over and over again. It just happens too fast.

[ElNono]

Did anyone check their local clock with an external clock I wonder?

Yeah, I bet you the delay comes from the guy pushing the stop watch button with his thumb...

/sarcasm

[Drachen]

Yeah, I bet you the delay comes from the guy pushing the stop watch button with his thumb...

/sarcasm

It was very hard for me to not respond sarcastically.

[ElNono]

It was very hard for me to not respond sarcastically.

Here's an image of the actual event:

http://lssacademy.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/stop-watch.jpg

:lol

[MannyIsGod]

Rofl

[Drachen]

Here's an image of the actual event:

http://lssacademy.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/stop-watch.jpg

:lol

Is that a timex?? OOOO, I heard that it is the most accurate analogue stopwatch on the planet. Accurate to within 3.32423 seconds.

[Agloco]

Ok, Sushihana is always a great meal. Two carafes of sake and I'm good to go.

So, yes this is indeed remarkable since the error is reported to be 16.6% aggregate. However, this is not the first time neutrinos have been observed to travel faster than c.

The MINOS experiment opened at FERMILAB in 2005 to test, among other things, neutrino oscillation (more on that below). During the course of testing they too observed neutrinos travelling faster than c. The problem was in the error. It was quite large, so they dismissed the findings.

Here are some neat pictures of MINOS and a non-technical treatment of how neutrinos are produced for experimentation:

http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2011/05/ars-photo-essay-standing-in-the-beam-line-of-a-neutrino-detector.ars

To understand this sort of thing, one has to consider the sources of potential error in an experiment of this nature. The three primary ones are the measurement of the distance travelled, the TOF (time of flight), and then a more technical issue called the time structure of your beam. Without getting too technical, that relates to the way you select the protons which will produce your neutrinos. The link above touches on this concept when it discusses the "humming of the horns".

At any rate, the folks at CERN (their toy is called OPERA btw) say that even after accounting for those things, the error is low.

Two other factors to consider here are:

1) Neutrinos do in fact have mass, its simply a few orders of magniutde less than other elementary particles. Given that, its not unreasonable to assume that their velocities are a strong function of imparted energy. In English, it means that the energy of the beam will affect the average velocity measured (even perhaps above c). Why? Well, the interstellar/solar neutrinos we measure are of lower energies (~10-20 MeV). Since they're so light, it doesn't take much to get them going. I've included a link (sorry, its a bit technical) to a paper which covers the methods used in the MINOS experiment.

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0706/0706.0437v3.pdf

2) I mentioned neutrino oscillations above. This is a description of how they "transform" from one kind into another. There are three types, which are each paired to their leptonic namesakes (electron, muon, tau). This is part of the Standard Model in particle physics. It's been observed that muon neutrinos can "morph" into one of the other two subtypes (electron and tau). Many times, they leave the solid target as one type, and arrive at the scintillators as another. What does that mean? Well, potentially this "morph" requires a bit of energy, or conversely, may impart some which as I pointied out in the first reason can affect velocities. These oscillations violate the Lorentz invariance which speaks to the constanty of space-time. In short, this would allow for oscillations in a particle or non-particle state (again affecting energy and hence velocity). This is a very active area of research. Much more research is needed into the masses of the nuetrino subtypes.

Synopysis: There is much to be excited about if the calculated error is found to be accurate. I wouldn't hold my breath though.

PS - Sorry if some parts are technical, it's kinda unavoidable with this subject. I've highlighted some terms which might make more sense if you googled them.

[Agloco]

Did anyone check their local clock with an external clock I wonder?

The experiments are carried out using GPS timing. The signals are channeled underground using fiberoptic cables. Jitter of the GPS clocks cause an error of around 100ns usually, with a maximum being close to plus/minus 200ns (relative to UTC). If you add in detector time resolution and add the errors in quadrature, you're around 150ns. We use a probability density function (PDF....not adobe) to characterize the expected time distribution at the back detectors. Understand that the arrival time distribution at the back detector is similar, it's just that the relative jitter screws things up.


What if somehow, the tremendous rotating magnetic force, slowed the local time down?

You mean the steering field for the protons? It's well characterized and doesn't require a timing correction in and of itself.

To explain the process a bit: the first hit on a scintillator is compared with the magent signal. We know the timing delays quite well and correct for them. The corrections are done separately for the front and back detectors.

Of course, theres the readout delay, electronic latency for both near and far detectors, distance between detectors, antenna fiber delays for both detectors. If you added them in quadrature you'd get around 60ns I'd guess.

[Agloco]

Here's an image of the actual event:

http://lssacademy.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/stop-watch.jpg

:lol

lol, we used to have competitions to see who could start/stop the LCD varieties the quickest.

[Agloco]

I was thinking perhaps another round of absinthe.

Yes, I looked this up. Never had the pleasure. How strong are the flavors?

[Capt Bringdown]

Two carafes of sake and I'm good to go.

Sake's my favorite these days, a very warm and jolly buzz.

[Drachen]

Yes, I looked this up. Never had the pleasure. How strong are the flavors?

Let's just put it this way, you MUST shoot it FAST. It is not for sipping.

[baseline bum]

Yes, I looked this up. Never had the pleasure. How strong are the flavors?

It tastes strongly like licorice.

[101A]

For proof, just watch "The Incredibles." You really can't see that kid put the tack in the teacher's chair. I've watched it over and over again. It just happens too fast.

You can also watch D. Fisher take a game winner.

Cool news. Was bummed that speeds necessary to go way out an explore the universe would be impossible. Maybe not.

[scott]

What has two thumbs and is about to jump the shark? That's right, THIS GUY.

Here is my comment:

It's amazing how scientists are constantly willing to revise, update and/or complete replace even the most fundemental "truths" of their field - whereas the non-scientists point to said willingness as a sign to their fallibility and the proof their wackjob theories must be right.

You may now return to your normally scheduled awe.

[Drachen]

What has two thumbs and is about to jump the shark? That's right, THIS GUY.

Here is my comment:

It's amazing how scientists are constantly willing to revise, update and/or complete replace even the most fundemental "truths" of their field - whereas the non-scientists point to said willingness as a sign to their fallibility and the proof their wackjob theories must be right.

You may now return to your normally scheduled awe.

you have been on fire lately scott, is the business just running itself these days?

I mean, the Hot Carl of objective truth you dropped all over that taxes thread made it much better to read.

[scott]

you have been on fire lately scott, is the business just running itself these days?

I mean, the Hot Carl of objective truth you dropped all over that taxes thread made it much better to read.

Thanks amigo.

I've been at home ill this week, that's why I've had so much time to post. I credit anything I've written that's had a positive contribution to the meds.

[Yonivore]

It tastes strongly like licorice.
I believe anise is a major ingredient in both.

[Agloco]

Results of the redo.......

http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-11-contested-faster-than-light-yields-results.html


The new tests "confirm so far the previous results," the Italian Institute for Nuclear Physics (INFN) said in a press release.

I think some variations on a theme are in order. Shortening of the distance traversed, using 3 proton beam configurations in series and re-testing detector resolution.

Interesting though.

[Wild Cobra]

Results of the redo.......

http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-11-contested-faster-than-light-yields-results.html



I think some variations on a theme are in order. Shortening of the distance traversed, using 3 proton beam configurations in series and re-testing detector resolution.

Interesting though.
I love it.

Scientists will be scratching their heads for some time now to figure out the speed of neutrinos are now the new standard.

[MannyIsGod]

brb starting up work on my time machine.

[Wild Cobra]

brb starting up work on my time machine.
You know, If time travel was possible in the next 40 or 50 years, I would be a trillionaire, by telling myself what investments to make.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

What a win for superstring theory. It of course does not prove the concept but it does match the functions according to what I was hearing from Brian Greene. I still have to wrap my mind around the idea that anything that quantum mechanics predicts can happen actually does happen but I love this shit.

[Borat Sagyidev]

You know, If time travel was possible in the next 40 or 50 years, I would be a trillionaire, by telling myself what investments to make.


Yes, you could be important.

Reality:
not much different than this...

L3LHAlcrTRA

[ElNono]

I think this will carry more validity when it's reproduced on a different setting. The Fermilab experiment would be that. Even in the event it's confirmed, it doesn't necessarily mean it's traveling faster than the speed of light in the Einstein model. As mentioned before, if the process is causing a bend on space/time, it would appear faster without actually being faster. Obviously, that would need to be tested too.

[Phenomanul]

Results of the redo.......

http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-11-contested-faster-than-light-yields-results.html

I think some variations on a theme are in order. Shortening of the distance traversed, using 3 proton beam configurations in series and re-testing detector resolution.

Interesting though.

Here's an article I meant to post several weeks ago...


A few weeks ago the world went wild over CERN's tentative claim that it could make neutrinos travel faster than light. Suddenly, intergalactic tourism and day trips to the real Jurassic Park were back on the menu, despite everything Einstein said. Now, however, a team of scientists at the University of Groningen in the Netherlands reckons it's come up with a more plausible (and disappointing) explanation of what happened: the GPS satellites used to measure the departure and arrival times of the racing neutrinos were themselves subject to Einsteinian effects, because they were in motion relative to the experiment. This relative motion wasn't properly taken into account, but it would have decreased the neutrinos' apparent journey time. The Dutch scientists calculated the error and came up with the 64 nanoseconds. Sound familiar? That's because it's almost exactly the margin by which CERN's neutrinos were supposed to have beaten light. So, it's Monday morning, Alpha Centauri and medieval jousting tournaments remain as out of reach as ever, and we just thought we'd let you know.

And some other related articles which say, "Remember those faster-than-light neutrinos? Well... Not so fast!"

Contested 'faster-than-light' experiment yields results
November 18, 2011

http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-11-contested-faster-than-light-yields-results.html

Image Caption:
A researcher shows how events are reported and which bricks made collisions with neutrinos during a test made in March by the Oscillation Project with Emulsion-Racking Apparatus detector (OPERA) at the Gran Sasso National Laboratory (LNGS), located under the Gran Sasso mountain, on November 14.

A fiercely contested experiment that appears to show the accepted speed limit of the Universe can be broken has yielded the same results in a re-run, European physicists said.

But counterparts in the United States said the experiment still did not resolve doubts and the Europeans themselves acknowledged this was not the end of the story.

On September 23, the European team issued a massive challenge to fundamental physics by saying they had measured particles called neutrinos which travelled around six kilometres (3.75 miles) per second faster than the velocity of light, determined by Einstein to be the highest speed possible.

The neutrinos had been measured along a 732-kilometre (454-mile) trajectory between the European Centre for Nuclear Research (CERN) in Switzerland and a laboratory in Italy.

The scientists at CERN and the Gran Sasso Laboratory in Italy scrutinised the results of the so-called OPERA experiment for nearly six months before cautiously making the announcement.

In October, responding to criticism that they had been tricked by a statistical quirk, the team decided they would carry out a second series of experiments.

Image Caption:
This file photo shows a layer of the world's largest superconducting solenoid magnet (CMS), one of the experiments preparing to take data at European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN)'s Large Hadron Collider (LHC) particule accelerator, before its completion in 2007.

This time, the scientists altered the structure of the proton beam, a factor that critics said could have affected the outome.

The modification helped the team identify individual particles when they were fired out and when they arrived at their destination.

The new tests "confirm so far the previous results," the Italian Institute for Nuclear Physics (INFN) said in a press release.

"A measurement so delicate and carrying a profound implication on physics requires an extraordinary level of scrutiny," the INFN's president, Fernando Ferroni, said.

"The experiment OPERA, thanks to a specially adapted CERN beam, has made an important test of consistency of its result. The positive outcome of the test makes us more confident in the result, although a final word can only be said by analogous measurements performed elsewhere in the world".

In France, Jacques Martino, head of the National Institute of Nuclear and Particle Physics at the National Centre of Scientific Research (CNRS), said "the search is not over."

"There are more checks of systematics currently under discussion, one of them could be a synchronisation of the time reference at CERN and Gran Sasso independently from the GPS (Global Positioning System), using possibly a fibre."

A paper describing the re-run is published on Friday in the open-access Internet science journal, ArXiv.

In the United States, the famous US particle physics laboratory, Fermilab, said the experiment still failed to resolve questions as to whether the flight of the neutrinos had been accurately timed. Just the tiniest error would skew the whole findings.

"OPERA's observation of a similar time delay with a different beam structure only indicates no problem with the batch structure of the beam, it doesn't help to understand whether there is a systematic delay which has been overlooked," said Jenny Thomas, co-spokesman for the Chicago-based lab's own neutrino experiment, MINOS.

MINOS uses a particle beam generated at Fermilab outside Chicago, with a detector at a mine in Minnesota.

More information: OPERA press release

(c) 2011 AFP


http://arxiv.org/abs/1110.2685

Time-of-flight between a Source and a Detector observed from a Satellite

Authors: Ronald A.J. van Elburg
(Submitted on 12 Oct 2011 (v1), last revised 17 Oct 2011 (this version, v3))

Abstract: Michelson and Morley showed that an interference pattern is reference-frame independent. However, the distance between a particle's production and detection site is reference-frame dependent due to Lorentz contraction and detector movement. For the OPERA experiment detector movement in the satellite reference frame leads to corrections which can account for most of the $\pm 60$ ns discrepancy between expected and observed time of flight.

[Phenomanul]

You know, If time travel was possible in the next 40 or 50 years, I would be a trillionaire, by telling myself what investments to make.

A completely selfish thing to do... Actually, this freudian slip of yours doesn't surprise me since it reflects on many of your political views (but that's neither here nor there...)

Though in your defense, most people here in the forum would probably attempt to make themselves extremely wealthy with such a device...

Myself, I probably would want to go to the future and return with a faster-than-light-ship (ironic given the subject matter of this thread) so that Earth could begin to mine the resources of other uninhabited planets in our galaxy...

[Drachen]

A completely selfish thing to do... Actually, this freudian slip of yours doesn't surprise me since it reflects on many of your political views (but that's neither here nor there...)

Though in your defense, most people here in the forum would probably attempt to make themselves extremely wealthy with such a device...

Myself, I probably would want to go to the future and return with a faster-than-light-ship (ironic given the subject matter of this thread) so that Earth could begin to mine the resources of other uninhabited planets in our galaxy...

don't worry, he doesn't actually believe in using any of the knowledge that comes out of this. It goes against his principals since it is government funded.

[ElNono]

I posted this next year! Woohooo!

[LnGrrrR]

You know, If time travel was possible in the next 40 or 50 years, I would be a trillionaire, by telling myself what investments to make.

I'm pretty sure time travel would completely eliminate any conception of monetary value that we currently hold.

[Agloco]

http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/02/22/einstein-was-right-all-along-faster-than-light-neutrino-was-product-of-error/?xid=gonewsedit&google_editors_picks=true


The universe as we know it was saved today. The instrument of its salvation, and that of the very edifice of physics itself? A fiber-optic cable in a GPS receiver at the European Center for Particle Physics (CERN) near Geneva.

:lol

loose fiber optic cable........

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/001/582/picard-facepalm.jpg?1240934151

[ElNono]

crofl

Well, at least it wasn't held together with duct tape

[Agloco]

The experiments are carried out using GPS timing. The signals are channeled underground using fiberoptic cables. Jitter of the GPS clocks cause an error of around 100ns usually, with a maximum being close to plus/minus 200ns (relative to UTC). If you add in detector time resolution and add the errors in quadrature, you're around 150ns. We use a probability density function (PDF....not adobe) to characterize the expected time distribution at the back detectors. Understand that the arrival time distribution at the back detector is similar, it's just that the relative jitter screws things up.
.

One loose fiber optic cable.

Check.

[Agloco]

crofl

Well, at least it wasn't held together with duct tape

We have yet to see tbh....:lol

[The Reckoning]

i know it was hardware malfunction and all, but theoretically arent particles supposed to be able to near, even break, the speed of light?

[baseline bum]

http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/02/22/einstein-was-right-all-along-faster-than-light-neutrino-was-product-of-error/?xid=gonewsedit&google_editors_picks=true



:lol

loose fiber optic cable........

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/001/582/picard-facepalm.jpg?1240934151

:depressed

Crap, destroying old laws is the most exciting part of physics. Maybe we'll get lucky and have the Higgs field shot down this year.

[baseline bum]

You know, If time travel was possible in the next 40 or 50 years, I would be a trillionaire, by telling myself what investments to make.

Light bulbs and dish soap?

[MannyIsGod]

i know it was hardware malfunction and all, but theoretically arent particles supposed to be able to near, even break, the speed of light?

Not break. Particles can go faster than light when not in a vacuum, but the actual speed of light constant - the speed of light in a vacuum - isn't supposed to be a barrier than can be broken.

I thought they repeated this experiment elsewhere and duplicated the results? How would a loose FO cable explain that?

[MannyIsGod]

Nevermind I guess not. I actually read the article.

[Halberto]

Light bulbs and dish soap?



nah, temperature sensitive butter

[Wild Cobra]

nah, temperature sensitive butter
Butter might affect the envelope delay.

[Blake]

And now, let's go back in 2001, shall we ?

How do you know someone hasn't already

[Blake]

A completely selfish thing to do... Actually, this freudian slip of yours doesn't surprise me since it reflects on many of your political views (but that's neither here nor there...)

Though in your defense, most people here in the forum would probably attempt to make themselves extremely wealthy with such a device...

Myself, I probably would want to go to the future and return with a faster-than-light-ship (ironic given the subject matter of this thread) so that Earth could begin to mine the resources of other uninhabited planets in our galaxy...

Myself, I might unselfishly go back to the time King James was mass printing Bibles and change out genesis 1:1 to say Blake created earth. Then I'd give a shout out to spurstalk in genesis 1:2

[johnsmith]

Then I'd give a shout out to spurstalk in genesis 1:2

Dan would feel quite vindicated if you did this........so don't.

[Agloco]

i know it was hardware malfunction and all, but theoretically arent particles supposed to be able to near, even break, the speed of light?


Not break. Particles can go faster than light when not in a vacuum, but the actual speed of light constant - the speed of light in a vacuum - isn't supposed to be a barrier than can be broken.

:tu Manny.

Particles may travel faster than light....in a medium. More specifically, particles may travel faster than light would within that medium. This is the origin of Cerenkov radiation (and the reason I have a bluish glow according to Teysha Blue :lol). Simplistically, one may think of this as analogous to breaking the speed of sound and the effects seen (heard) with it.

There is some conjecture as to whether neutrinos may travel faster than light. Problem is with detection unfortunately. SNR is so bad, sensors must be built miles underground. This and their flux have some implications on radioactive decay.

[Agloco]

:depressed

Crap, destroying old laws is the most exciting part of physics. Maybe we'll get lucky and have the Higgs field shot down this year.

:tu

Or get confirmation.

[Drachen]

:tu

Or get confirmation.

agreed, but I think in the case of the speed of light, I think that destroying that law would be substantially more exciting than upholding it.

[Agloco]

agreed, but I think in the case of the speed of light, I think that destroying that law would be substantially more exciting than upholding it.

Yah...not sure how I'd respond to that initially though.

Probably with about 4 neat Scotches tbh.

[LnGrrrR]

http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/02/22/einstein-was-right-all-along-faster-than-light-neutrino-was-product-of-error/?xid=gonewsedit&google_editors_picks=true



:lol

loose fiber optic cable........

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/001/582/picard-facepalm.jpg?1240934151

This is why network engineers get paid the big money. To mess up world-altering physics events. :D

[MannyIsGod]

My fiber optic cable came lose and I posted in the wrong thread.

[Drachen]

My fiber optic cable came lose and I posted in the wrong thread.

This is why you should use butter instead of a thermometer. Eventually Tech will fuck you with it's glassy wire.

[Agloco]

http://www.tgdaily.com/general-sciences-features/63167-light-clocked-going-faster-than-light-sort-of


This isn't a case of those pesky CERN neutrinos again, but rather a technique called four-wave mixing, which reshapes parts of light pulses as they travel through a vacuum and shunts them forward from their natural position.

It could be used, say the researchers, to improve the timing of communications signals and to investigate the propagation of quantum correlations.

Einstein's special theory of relativity gives us a sort of cosmic speed limit, with no information able to travel faster than light in a vacuum. But there's a loophole, says the team. A short burst of light arrives as a generally-symmetric curve, like a bell curve in statistics.

And while the leading edge of that curve can't exceed the speed of light, the main hump - the peak of the pulse - can be shifted forward to arrive sooner than it normally would.

:stirpot:

[TeyshaBlue]

Where you been, AG?

[MannyIsGod]

http://www.tgdaily.com/general-sciences-features/63167-light-clocked-going-faster-than-light-sort-of



:stirpot:

If you give something a push while its already traveling at the the speed of light does it go faster?

PS Ag, after the last two semesters I've come to hate physics. :lol E&M can suck it.