TP - Elite PG or Finally Exposed?

[Calispursfan11]

For a long time I believed TP to be equally key as Tim and Manu to the Spurs' offense. I listened to all those knocks on ESPN or TNT where he was criticized or simply never even mentioned in the top 10 point guards conversation. Even after his finals MVP, he usually got snubbed by the sportscasters. Rubbish I thought - they don't know how good this guy really is. He was possibly one of the top three point guards in the league at one point I thought... But as we see Tim/Manu breaking down even as the Spurs role players improve, it does not seem that TP has the same impact on the Spurs in the past couple of seasons.

I would think this kind of decline is often due to age, but TP is still in his prime. What I am thinking now, and what I fear, is that TP actually got more credit than he deserved, and that Tim and Manu always propped him way up. So now that those two are clearly on the downside of their carrers, TP's ineffectiveness is finally exposed or at least the Sportcenter and TNT comments snubbing him or leaving him out of the top PG conversation were always justified.

Thoughts?

[Leetonidas]

If Parker isn't playing well, we're fucked. Case in point; 2011 first round. He's supposed to be our consistent scoring threat with Manu and if he's off we're going to have a hard time winning no matter what. He had a great season this year and I'm not sure why but he fell apart in the first round and it's a big reason we got thrashed.

[Calispursfan11]

I agree that he played really well during stretches of past seasons where Tim and Manu were both out. He is a talented scorer still, but the question coming up will be, is he really good enough to carry the Spurs to some level of success on his own? I thought this could be possible before, but I am not so convinced anymore.

[lefty]

2007: Boobie Gibson :lol
lol finals mvp

[TE]

idk about any of you all but when you get outplayed by Mike fucking Conley then you a scrubbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb

[mystargtr34]

Parker haters :lol... he has been a top 5 PG since about 2005. People place the blame on the stars when a team loses.. which is why Parker gets alot of shit for the Memphis series.. but if the Spurs had an NBA quality bigman to play next to Duncan, or anyone not named Matt Bonner.. the Spurs win the series and no body mentions Parker being 'terrible' against Memphis.

[mystargtr34]

It would take an all time great ie a prime Duncan to carry a team on which Matt Bonner is a relied upon player ..to an NBA championship.

[lefty]

2007........

The Curse of Boobie Gibson .......

http://images.wikia.com/nba/images/9/93/Mike_Conley_Jr.jpg

[Dex]

The problem with Tony is he's a regular season kind of player. In the span of an 82-game season, he can get his. He's got the speed to get points on the break, and his ability to get in the lane and finish makes him an efficient scorer when teams aren't focused primarily on stopping him.

The problem is, once the playoffs start, the defensive intensity picks up and teams start focusing on ways to 'kill the head of the snake'. And Phil Jackson provided the key to stopping Parker way back in 2004.....pack the lane. If he or other shooters can't hit their shots, game over.

Not saying Tony isn't talented. I'd still rate him as a Top 15 point guard. However, until he can get that jumper cooking again, he's still single-dimensional, and it's too easy to take away a single strength.

[lefty]

The problem with Tony is he's a regular season kind of player. In the span of an 82-game season, he can get his. He's got the speed to get points on the break, and his ability to get in the lane and finish makes him an efficient scorer when teams aren't focused primarily on stopping him.

The problem is, once the playoffs start, the defensive intensity picks up and teams start focusing on ways to 'kill the head of the snake'. And Phil Jackson provided the key to stopping Parker way back in 2004.....pack the lane. If he or other shooters can't hit their shots, game over.
Pretty much
The only times TP has shined in the playoffs have been agaisnt piss poor defensive PG's - Nash and Gibson - or teams

[FkLA]

Parker has always been fucking overrated, always. Like Dex said too often teams pack the paint during the playoffs and Frenchie becomes completely ineffective because he doesnt bring much else to the table. I agree that his inability to develope a jumpshot has cost the Spurs series' since 04', probably wouldve been since 03' if Duncan wasnt God that year and Speedy didnt bail Parker's ass out.

Nigga developed a half-decent shot when Chips first became the shooting coach but then his shot reverted to being complete shit the past few yrs again. Shouldve traded this overrated Frenchie while he still had value before he loses his speed and becomes a complete scrub, shouldve given the reins to that nigga Hill.

[will_spurs]

Being the leading scorer in the recent Euro Championship and bringing France to a silver medal sure points to the fact that he's overrated.

[ElNono]

This past season I noticed he's been lazy on defense. He also wasn't going to his jumper as much. Maybe lack of confidence after missing some or something.

The lack of overall team defense also goes against his game. He's the kind of guy that can run after a blocked shot or a good defensive board, but when you have to inbound after a made basket you go back to the slower game, which is pretty typical of the playoffs, especially when you can't stop anybody. TD's decline certainly contributed to that.

[therealtruth]

This past season I noticed he's been lazy on defense. He also wasn't going to his jumper as much. Maybe lack of confidence after missing some or something.

The lack of overall team defense also goes against his game. He's the kind of guy that can run after a blocked shot or a good defensive board, but when you have to inbound after a made basket you go back to the slower game, which is pretty typical of the playoffs, especially when you can't stop anybody. TD's decline certainly contributed to that.

Good point. I though the Spurs started struggling when they slowed their offensive tempo but didn't really improve defensively. I think the problem with Parker sometimes when you feature him too much is he reduces everybody else to a jumpshooter. If his he's not finishing his drives or guys are not making shots then the Spurs are in trouble. That's exactly what Memphis did. Since he's not a pure point it would help if he could play off the ball a little more.

I like the ball in Ginobili's hands more. He is able to gets others involved. Parker can't throw RJ an alley-oop without a set play. I think that speaks volumes about his passing ability. Kidd used to do it all the time. Even Duncan and Ginobili are better at that.

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

Parker is good, don't be ungrateful. Be glad the Spurs have a point guard who can score and can outrun 85% of all other PG's. How can he be exposed? He has been so good in our past Championship runs, and I firmly believe he deserved that Finals MVP in 07. Him getting outplayed by Conley was a mental breakdown, and I'm sure redemption is on his mind. Expect big numbers from TP next season.

[TDMVPDPOY]

i dunno any other good player out there when gettin outplayed look like a fkn complete scrub...worst thing of all this happens in important games

[mathbzh]

And Phil Jackson provided the key to stopping Parker way back in 2004.....pack the lane. If he or other shooters can't hit their shots, game over.


And we still won in 2005/2007...

Parker is a very good PG. People act like he never played against Paul or Williams in the Playoffs.

But no matter how good he is, no PG will save the day when his team his getting destroyed in the paint. I don't get how people blame Parker so much for the last playoffs. If he was bad, any other player but Manu was worse.

Fact: No top 3 PG has won a ring since Isiah Thomas

[Cane]

In Parker's peak he was arguably a top 3-5 PG but he's no longer as quick and got himself into way too much god damn drama which probably doesn't help. The league is also loaded with young PG's on the rise so its an even more competitive position than ever before.

Of the Big 3, Parker offers the fewest intangibles, defensive plays, versatility, etc. Bruce Bowen and at times even veteran backup PG's made up for some of Parker's/Spurs weaknesses in the past.

Parker's court-vision/passing/handles/decision-making really isn't very good either. At least when it comes to managing a good assist to turnover ratio especially against the Grizz in the playoffs. He has also failed to utilize Richard Jefferson's few strengths like feeding him on the fast break but thats also because Parker is a score first player and RJ was just a bad fit.

Parker's midrange shot seemed like it kind of disappeared in the past year or two or at least it seemed more inconsistent.

I like that Parker got better in the reg season but for the healthiest and youngest member of the Big 3 he just doesn't have the impact that you'd expect. I don't like Parker mostly because he's been disappointing in the past two playoffs and because he's been getting himself into really stupid stuff like sexting. I think Parker getting involved with ex-Spurs wives is just a bad, bad deal for not only Parker but the locker room as well.

[Giuseppe]

After The Skunker & then 8, it's as obvious as the nose on Manure's face.

Parker ain't a tired old shit bag like Duncan.

No. Parker is just a shit bag.

[J_Paco]

S
In Parker's peak he was arguably a top 3-5 PG but he's no longer as quick and got himself into way too much god damn drama which probably doesn't help. The league is also loaded with young PG's on the rise so its an even more competitive position than ever before.

Of the Big 3, Parker offers the fewest intangibles, defensive plays, versatility, etc. Bruce Bowen and at times even veteran backup PG's made up for some of Parker's/Spurs weaknesses in the past.

Parker's court-vision/passing/handles/decision-making really isn't very good either. At least when it comes to managing a good assist to turnover ratio especially against the Grizz in the playoffs. He has also failed to utilize Richard Jefferson's few strengths like feeding him on the fast break but thats also because Parker is a score first player and RJ was just a bad fit.

Parker's midrange shot seemed like it kind of disappeared in the past year or two or at least it seemed more inconsistent.

I like that Parker got better in the reg season but for the healthiest and youngest member of the Big 3 he just doesn't have the impact that you'd expect. I don't like Parker mostly because he's been disappointing in the past two playoffs and because he's been getting himself into really stupid stuff like sexting. I think Parker getting involved with ex-Spurs wives is just a bad, bad deal for not only Parker but the locker room as well.


LOL

You haters are fucking ridiculous on here. Parker was possibly our best and most consistent player throughout the regular season, and 2nd behind Manu in the Memphis series, yet it is only him who was "exposed." It wasn't Jefferson, Hill, or Bonner? They all shrunk and played like bitches against the Grizzilies. No, but let's blame Parker cause he can't "find" Jefferson in the open-court, even though Jefferson was looking to run less than any other year of his career, and was passive from December on.

Oh, it's his fault that Hill and Bonner played very poorly against their match ups. Parker should of helped them make their shots and defend O.J. Mayo, Tony Allen, Geravais Vasquez, Zach Randolph and Darell Arthur better.

Parker's defense and jump shooting was very subpar at times last season. But you can't lay on the blame on him or think he was exposed because played his usual level. Everyone not named Manu struggled mightily in that series, but it was still very close. The breaks just didn't go our way, but there is (hopefully) next season. Hopefully Parker will redeem himself in many of your eyes, but if he doesn't he still has 3 championship rings and a Finals MVP trophy.

[TD 21]

I don't even see how it's debatable, he's definitely an elite point guard. There's 7 elite point guards: Paul, Williams, Rose, Westbrook, Nash, Parker, Rondo.

Parker is one of the most consistent, efficient scorers in the league and a slightly better all around player than he's given credit for. Despite that, he's still the third best player on the Spurs.

He's been, at minimum, a top 30 player for the better part of a decade now. After all he's accomplished, one bad series doesn't mean he was "exposed", it just means he had a bad series. What it proved though, is what has always been obvious: If he has to be your best player in the playoffs, the chances are you're not going very far. But that's more a commentary about what it takes to win a championship in the NBA than it is a knock on him.

[ulosturedge]

You guys ever stop to think that defenses focus more on stopping Tony Parker's penetration. With an aged Tim and Manu teams will scheme towards keeping Parker out of the paint whenever they think it becomes a problem. Before they couldn't do that because Tim and Manu demanded so much attention. Also you got to think Parker came in the league at 19 and has gone deep into the playoffs many times. With the wear and tear and injuries you would have to say he is somewhat past his prime. An old 29 if you will.

He's a great player but he's not Tim Duncan. He ain't gonna carry an entire team. He's got old vets and young rookies around him what do you guys expect? He's done great for us quit hating.

[Proxy]

Saying he's a scrub is a bit too much... but denying that he was responsible for the first three losses to Memphis is ignorant. Last I remember, it was Manu that Tony Allen and Battier were guarding, and Mcdyess and Timmy had their hands full with Randolph and Gasol... so it was TP getting outplayed by Conley.

What world are you guys living in, where any of the top PGs in the NBA disappear in the playoffs in every aspect of the game? He missed layups that he should have made, wasn't hitting the outside shot, couldn't stop Conley, and didn't get players involved.

Putting him on the same tier as Rose, Paul, Williams, Nash, and Rondo is dumb. Those players don't disappear, even when defenses focus on them.

Hopefully it's just a confidence thing.

[joshdaboss]

The thing that I find funny is people are acting like this is the first time Parker has been exposed. That's what's really funny.

[TD 21]

Putting him on the same tier as Rose, Paul, Williams, Nash, and Rondo is dumb. Those players don't disappear, even when defenses focus on them.

I didn't put him "on the same tier" as them, I just said he's one of the elite seven. Within' that, there's two tiers. Paul, Williams and Rose are clearly tier one. Advanced stats would lead you to believe that Westbrook belongs with them, but I wouldn't go that far yet.

[therealtruth]

Saying he's a scrub is a bit too much... but denying that he was responsible for the first three losses to Memphis is ignorant. Last I remember, it was Manu that Tony Allen and Battier were guarding, and Mcdyess and Timmy had their hands full with Randolph and Gasol... so it was TP getting outplayed by Conley.

What world are you guys living in, where any of the top PGs in the NBA disappear in the playoffs in every aspect of the game? He missed layups that he should have made, wasn't hitting the outside shot, couldn't stop Conley, and didn't get players involved.

Putting him on the same tier as Rose, Paul, Williams, Nash, and Rondo is dumb. Those players don't disappear, even when defenses focus on them.

Hopefully it's just a confidence thing.

Spurs mainly had the clear advantage at pg and sf. They failed to use those advantages. Parker was an inefficient scorer that tried to do too much and didn't get others involved. Usually Parker scores efficiently and that makes up for his lack of passing ability. It might have made more sense for him to play more like Conley where instead of looking to score he was looking to get others involved.

[DMC]

Exposed? Sure, he's skated for years through the NBA picking up All Star appearances and a Finals MVP, but he's been faking it.

lol...

[DMC]

Spurs mainly had the clear advantage at pg and sf. They failed to use those advantages. Parker was an inefficient scorer that tried to do too much and didn't get others involved. Usually Parker scores efficiently and that makes up for his lack of passing ability. It might have made more sense for him to play more like Conley where instead of looking to score he was looking to get others involved.
Everyone always wants Tony or Manu to play like the other team's players who've never made it out of the 2nd round, just because they lost to that team.

Did Memphis suddenly become the standard for excellence?

[Calispursfan11]

We can't deny that he is highly decorated, but so were guys like Marbury and Francis who both broke down and faded into oblivion. I am hoping he is as good as I've always thought, but something appears to be missing in his game - for whatever reason it has been becoming more obvious, especially over the past season.

[ElNono]

Everyone always wants Tony or Manu to play like the other team's players who've never made it out of the 2nd round, just because they lost to that team.

Did Memphis suddenly become the standard for excellence?

Memphis tanked to get us, and then put their money where they mouth was.

They were the better team throughout the series. Hats off to them.

Maybe if we would've made it out of the 1st round, we wouldn't be talking about Conley, who, BTW, was playing his first playoffs series ever.
I agree TP was a mismatch to exploit. It just didn't happen. Not hating on TP for saying something that's fairly obvious.

[DMC]

Memphis tanked to get us, and then put their money where they mouth was.

They were the better team throughout the series. Hats off to them.

So? They aren't a championship level team, not even close. We were ripe for the picking with Manu's last game injury and the team basically running on offense, no defense. That doesn't make Memphis any better than they were before, it just makes us worse.

There are plenty of players in the league you could use as a mold for a great PG. Conley isn't one I would instantly pick just because he was on the team that a old deflated Spurs team lost to.



Maybe if we would've made it out of the 1st round, we wouldn't be talking about Conley, who, BTW, was playing his first playoffs series ever.
I agree TP was a mismatch to exploit. It just didn't happen. Not hating on TP for saying something that's fairly obvious.
It's like being last in the NASCAR race and saying you need your car to be like the 2nd to last guy, because he finished before you did.

[dbreiden83080]

Not elite at all..

[DMC]

We can't deny that he is highly decorated, but so were guys like Marbury and Francis who both broke down and faded into oblivion. I am hoping he is as good as I've always thought, but something appears to be missing in his game - for whatever reason it has been becoming more obvious, especially over the past season.
Whatever happens to Tony after today is beside the point. He's been a good PG for years. He's helped lead a team to two championships (the third he had a much smaller role) as the starting PG. He destroys the other team's defense and can take 1 on 3 fast breaks with a high percentage of success.

On a squad like GS, his scoring average would be much higher. He spent much of his career dumping the ball inside to Tim.

Say what you want about other players fading away. It's all conjecture. Tony Parker has been one of the best PGs in the league for many years, regardless how he goes from here.

He's never been an elite player, never will be, but some here act like he's pulled the wool over the eyes of NBA fans for years. He's just learned how to operate within a system.

[ElNono]

So? They aren't a championship level team, not even close. We were ripe for the picking with Manu's last game injury and the team basically running on offense, no defense. That doesn't make Memphis any better than they were before, it just makes us worse.

There are plenty of players in the league you could use as a mold for a great PG. Conley isn't one I would instantly pick just because he was on the team that a old deflated Spurs team lost to.

What's your point? We're discussing who had a clear matchup advantage and failed to deliver. You can't take 3 games off in the playoffs against a playoff rookie, and that's what's being pointed out. Who cares who would you take as a PG?


It's like being last in the NASCAR race and saying you need your car to be like the 2nd to last guy, because he finished before you did.

We didn't have a team to win the race, period. That's not what we're talking about here. Nobody is advocating trading TP for Conley, merely that a player with Tony's experience should've taken that rook for a spin. Didn't happen, that's all.

[mathbzh]

Putting him on the same tier as Rose, Paul, Williams, Nash, and Rondo is dumb. Those players don't disappear, even when defenses focus on them.


Chris Paul vs. Denver 2009 playoffs, Rondo vs. Miami 2011, Nash vs Spurs 2008... these guys never disappear :rolleyes

[Anonymous Cowherd]

Parker's comfortably better than Rondo for now (Parker can shoot a basketball), and is probably on a par with Nash (and will be better as Nash continues to decline).

He's not up there with CP3, D-Will or now D-Rose.

[ginobili fan]

The problem with Tony is he's a regular season kind of player. In the span of an 82-game season, he can get his. He's got the speed to get points on the break, and his ability to get in the lane and finish makes him an efficient scorer when teams aren't focused primarily on stopping him.

The problem is, once the playoffs start, the defensive intensity picks up and teams start focusing on ways to 'kill the head of the snake'. And Phil Jackson provided the key to stopping Parker way back in 2004.....pack the lane. If he or other shooters can't hit their shots, game over.

Not saying Tony isn't talented. I'd still rate him as a Top 15 point guard. However, until he can get that jumper cooking again, he's still single-dimensional, and it's too easy to take away a single strength.

This.
Tony was during the last few years RS Spurs MVP.
But in Playoffs he wasn't that regular because of the defensive intensity.
The Spurs tend to believe in TP so much because of the RS and then in Playoffs the role players struggle.
But the talent is there no doubt about it.
Watching him during the Euro this summer, I'm not worried at all in TP translation to be the Spurs leader.
No matter what, TP was the best PG in this european tournament and easilly the equivalent of a star player like Dirk...
Yes he isn't that young but he's still improving, so he did at this European Tournament.
And no one can denie that when his jumpshot his falling he's unstoppable and can be as dangerous as the NBA best players like D Rose, D Williams...
Maybe he needs more of this killer instinct and confidence to keep the high level wich need to him to be ELITE.

[swaggerjackson]

Certainly with the jumpshot rolling he is considerably more dangerous but I still have doubts about his ability to hold the team up. Tim and Manu have a style that is both individually dominating and it improves the play of other around them. Tony is not selfish but he just gets his at the end of the day. He isn't that great of a facilitator, just a phenomenal penetrator (its ok Brent Barry, don't be ashamed). And you are right he is great in the regular season but he really in my eyes hasn't had any superstar worthy performances in the playoffs. He is a damn good player who is valuable but he is not the piece to build on in the future. I am in favor of shipping him out to gain either a pass first star point guard, move Jefferson's contract, or get a solid big man to pair with Duncan. He certainly deserves respect but he is a regular season player. And a lot of his accolades should be chalked up to playing beside Duncan. Thats my two cents

[FkLA]

Chris Paul vs. Denver 2009 playoffs, Rondo vs. Miami 2011, Nash vs Spurs 2008... these guys never disappear :rolleyes

2011 wasnt the first time Parker disappeared, likely wont be the last either. Also those guys arent score first PGs like Parker, theyre still able to get their teammates involved when their shots arent falling.


Parker's comfortably better than Rondo for now (Parker can shoot a basketball)

So because Parker's shot is slightly less atrocious than Rondo's he can shoot a basketball? :lol

Parker's shot has always been garbage and as has been pointed out that has been a big reason for many Spurs playoff outings. Teams gameplan and pack the lane on him and he becomes an average player because he doesnt bring much else to the table.


and is probably on a par with Nash (and will be better as Nash continues to decline).

:lmao

[FkLA]

Certainly with the jumpshot rolling he is considerably more dangerous but I still have doubts about his ability to hold the team up. Tim and Manu have a style that is both individually dominating and it improves the play of other around them. Tony is not selfish but he just gets his at the end of the day. He isn't that great of a facilitator, just a phenomenal penetrator (its ok Brent Barry, don't be ashamed). And you are right he is great in the regular season but he really in my eyes hasn't had any superstar worthy performances in the playoffs. He is a damn good player who is valuable but he is not the piece to build on in the future. I am in favor of shipping him out to gain either a pass first star point guard, move Jefferson's contract, or get a solid big man to pair with Duncan. He certainly deserves respect but he is a regular season player. And a lot of his accolades should be chalked up to playing beside Duncan. Thats my two cents

I was always in favor of this, with Hill and Manu sharing PG duties for the remainder of these last few years TD has left. Too late now with Hill gone though. We'll just have to settle for Parker running wild during the regular season and disappearing in the playoffs.

[tmtcsc]

TP is seldom clutch but he's a decent pg. Certainly not someone to carry us ala Steve Nash. Dude still can't shoot consistently from the outside.

[DMC]

What's your point? We're discussing who had a clear matchup advantage and failed to deliver. You can't take 3 games off in the playoffs against a playoff rookie, and that's what's being pointed out. Who cares who would you take as a PG?

No, you're not even responding to what I was commenting on.

"It might have made more sense for him to play more like Conley where instead of looking to score he was looking to get others involved."

That's what I commented on. I have no fucking idea what you are going on about.

I didn't mention acquiring any other PG.


We didn't have a team to win the race, period. That's not what we're talking about here. Nobody is advocating trading TP for Conley, merely that a player with Tony's experience should've taken that rook for a spin. Didn't happen, that's all.I didn't mention a trade. Why would you want TP to play like someone who didn't make it out of the 2nd round instead of playing like the TP who won the Finals MVP?

[therealtruth]

This.
Tony was during the last few years RS Spurs MVP.
But in Playoffs he wasn't that regular because of the defensive intensity.
The Spurs tend to believe in TP so much because of the RS and then in Playoffs the role players struggle.
But the talent is there no doubt about it.
Watching him during the Euro this summer, I'm not worried at all in TP translation to be the Spurs leader.
No matter what, TP was the best PG in this european tournament and easilly the equivalent of a star player like Dirk...
Yes he isn't that young but he's still improving, so he did at this European Tournament.
And no one can denie that when his jumpshot his falling he's unstoppable and can be as dangerous as the NBA best players like D Rose, D Williams...
Maybe he needs more of this killer instinct and confidence to keep the high level wich need to him to be ELITE.

Exactly. No one is disputing how good a player Parker is. He's not that tall but usually is close to league leaders at scoring in the paint. When he has it going and has the right matchup he can win Finals mvps, beat the Suns in 2008, generally helps the team win, and it's a beauty to watch. The problem is it reduces the team's game to drive and kick which can be easily defended by other team packing paint and contesting shooters. Since his ability to facilitate is dependent on getting on getting into the paint he then becomes a liability at pg. The problem is the effect he has on the role players.

There were two alternatives to ballhog Tony that worked and helped role players more. In 2010 Manu and G.Hill sharing pg worked because both can facilitate and play off the ball. Also at the start of the season Tony looking to push the pace worked because he can finish and create transition opportunities for others. But as the season went on he reverted to ballhog Tony.

[ElNono]

No, you're not even responding to what I was commenting on.

"It might have made more sense for him to play more like Conley where instead of looking to score he was looking to get others involved."

That's what I commented on. I have no fucking idea what you are going on about.

On the same comment:
"Spurs mainly had the clear advantage at pg and sf. They failed to use those advantages."

Didn't know you were talking only about the latter part. My mistake.


I didn't mention a trade. Why would you want TP to play like someone who didn't make it out of the 2nd round instead of playing like the TP who won the Finals MVP?

How you or I want TP to play doesn't matter. It really is what the other team allows him to do. I don't know he could've penetrated more often or better against Memphis, because they packed the paint well, but without a fairly solid jumper to keep them honest, he ended up fizzling for the first 3 games. You don't play Boobby Gibson and the Cavs every series.

And no, it wasn't just TP that costs us the series, it was a combination of factors. But that was one contributing factor.

[ALVAREZ6]

I've always thought he was a great player since he arrived in the early 2000s, but never an elite PG simply because he doesn't have the passing and vision of the elite like Kidd, Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Steve Nash, etc.

[ALVAREZ6]

We can't deny that he is highly decorated, but so were guys like Marbury and Francis who both broke down and faded into oblivion. I am hoping he is as good as I've always thought, but something appears to be missing in his game - for whatever reason it has been becoming more obvious, especially over the past season.

I don't get this. I think this past season TP played very well. He was no doubt our most consistent player in the regular season, he simply didn't play as well against Memphis. I don't think anything is becoming more obvious, he simply isn't a great distributor and that has always been the case. Doesn't mean he sucks in that regard, just not nearly enough for me to call him elite when it's one of the primary roles for a point guard.

[Sean Cagney]

The thing that I find funny is people are acting like this is the first time Parker has been exposed. That's what's really funny.

I remember him SAT in 03 at key times, in 05 against Detroit he was horrible, Barry took alot of mins, so yeah you are right he has been bad at times in key moments! Most forget that? I hope not, he has been pussy at times and we all know that. 07 changed that though, sort of lol, but he had nash guarding him and BOOBIE! So no D teams yeah he goes off, but tight d who beats him up, he turns PUSS always has.

[Brazil]

:lmao

never get old

One thing is for sure SAS forum is going to be boring when TP will retire especially during the off season...

[portnoy1]

Something some folks don't factor in is that for Conley Jr. to run the grizzlies offense all he needed to do 9/10 times was throw the ball into Randolph or Gasol and then make his decisions based on how the defense reacts to that.

Parker couldn't come down and just give the ball to Duncan and Mcdyess all series. He is the spurs leading scorer and had to TRY and get his unlike Conley Jr. who doesnt have to put up significant numbers on offense. Conley Jr. can take himself out of the equation on offense, Parker can't.

On the otherhand, Parker can only create offense from inside the lane. Thats where he gets his points, which is fine. However his passing game as well is only effective when he gets in the lane. That and his jumpshot are the real issue here. Paul, Williams and Nash can set up teammates on the break, pass to cutters and take advantage of mismatches that bigger players have.

People praise Parker for scoring in 1 on 3 situations, or when derrick rose takes a 15ft floater, truth is when your patient and have a jumpshot the game is alot easier. You rarely see Cp3 trying to take it all the way against 2 and 3 guys. Why? when you can jog it down, run WITH your teammates and create an offensive advantage either for yourself, or a teammates.

Ginobili over the years has become a master at this; gone are the days that he can take it 1 on 3, but now he has become a better passer and facilitator as his athleticism has declined.

[Giuseppe]

Manure tries to get by on tomfoolery & guile.

Uh, uh.

[FkLA]

:lmao

never get old

One thing is for sure SAS forum is going to be boring when TP will retire especially during the off season...

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/images/flags/France.gif

Brazil is a Spurs fan from France.

[Brazil]

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/images/flags/France.gif

Brazil is a Spurs fan from France.

and ?

[DPG21920]

Spurs fans are pretty dumb. TP is elite. That doesn't mean he doesn't have his flaws. That doesn't mean that some of the arguments against him aren't valid. He is an elite PG, the best the Spurs have had and even though he didn't step up this playoffs, he is still a top PG in the league.

Now some may want to argue semantics of what defines "elite", most would probably say top 5 is the cutoff. But over the past few years, TP has definitely been in the elite conversation. It's not really his fault the Spurs have morphed into a PG reliant offense which makes it difficult to win titles. Even with all that offensive responsibility he has done extremely well.

[DPG21920]

and ?


It just makes everyone a little suspicious of you motives, just like Manu fans from Argentina.

Not to say that you were wrong, but that is what he was getting at.

[Pauleta14]

It just makes everyone a little suspicious of you motives, just like Manu fans from Argentina.

Not to say that you were wrong, but that is what he was getting at.


The same thing could be said bout US fans towards a french/non U.S player... :p: :ihit :rollin

This is not an argument and shouldn't be taken into acount unless you think we're in war or something :lol

[Brazil]

It just makes everyone a little suspicious of you motives, just like Manu fans from Argentina.

Not to say that you were wrong, but that is what he was getting at.

This is what I thought but he could also have been curious.


Concerning TP being elite or not, people are putting non realistic expectations, he is not a franchise player, never been one, never will. He cannot take over a serie when the opponent frontcourt is packing inside and is destroying our own frontcourt. Yes he played a subpar PO, shit happens (and there is surely a lot reasons for that but bottom line, he didn't play at expected level) but he is not the reason we lost that serie anyway, Grizz was the better team, that's it.

He was just the perfect fit for the spurs because him and Tim are playing perfectly together, problem is: Tim isn't dominating anymore.

Nevertheless a 17-18 pts 50%FG with a good assists/steals/TOs ratio PG who can resist 10 years at Pop is still very valuable in the NBA.

[ElNono]

Something some folks don't factor in is that for Conley Jr. to run the grizzlies offense all he needed to do 9/10 times was throw the ball into Randolph or Gasol and then make his decisions based on how the defense reacts to that.

tbqh, Conley did more than just that. More specifically, the Spurs decided Tony needed to go under the screen every time. And Conley pretty much made the Spurs pay every time. He made clutch baskets. And it wasn't only Conley, Gervais Vasquez walked in like a boss. They didn't miss a beat, and really played well.

It's easy to say they just brought the ball up and dumped it on the post. But they did hit clutch, crazy shots and defended well too. You would think it's not easy for a rook to keep pace with a seasoned vet like Tony.

[lefty]

I remember him SAT in 03 at key times, in 05 against Detroit he was horrible, Barry took alot of mins, so yeah you are right he has been bad at times in key moments! Most forget that? I hope not, he has been pussy at times and we all know that. 07 changed that though, sort of lol, but he had nash guarding him and BOOBIE! So no D teams yeah he goes off, but tight d who beats him up, he turns PUSS always has.

That's a fact

[ALVAREZ6]

Spurs fans are pretty dumb. TP is elite. That doesn't mean he doesn't have his flaws. That doesn't mean that some of the arguments against him aren't valid. He is an elite PG, the best the Spurs have had and even though he didn't step up this playoffs, he is still a top PG in the league.

Now some may want to argue semantics of what defines "elite", most would probably say top 5 is the cutoff. But over the past few years, TP has definitely been in the elite conversation. It's not really his fault the Spurs have morphed into a PG reliant offense which makes it difficult to win titles. Even with all that offensive responsibility he has done extremely well.

Well that's really all we are doing.

TP is a great player, but IMO an average distributor with average vision and passing. His offensive efficiency compensates for that for the Spurs' system, but vision/passing is too big of a role (AKA the primary role) for point guards for me to call him elite, when there are others that are more complete PGs like Williams, Paul, and Nash. A younger J.Kidd belongs there too obviously. Then you have guys like Derrick Rose and Russell Westbrook, who both more or less share similar offensive qualities with Parker, but Westbrook at least is relatively strong on defense. I rank these types of players a notch below the "elite". Parker at his best was an average defender and a really good scorer that happens to be 6'1"/6'2" and thus play the PG position. But that doesn't mean he isn't a great player, because that's undeniable.

But I revert to the same thing, it's also undeniable that Parker does not have the vision and passing of Williams, Paul, Nash, etc. TP's offense is not superior to that of these players, and even if it were, it still doesn't compensate for the fact that distributing the ball is a primary role for PGs, and those players are way better in that regard. That's why I don't have him in the first-tier, elite category. That's my criteria, and being 2nd-tier with other studs like Rose isn't such a bad thing in the "point guard era", with all of the talent at the position in the league. It's not like I'm considering 2nd-tier as average, or ranking somewhere between 8-12 top PGs in the league...he's still a damn good player :lol

[DPG21920]

I agree with that logic and it's a very good well-thought out way of looking at it IMO. I disagree with Westbrook, but the point you make remains.

[Ice009]

I agree with that logic and it's a very good well-thought out way of looking at it IMO. I disagree with Westbrook, but the point you make remains.

I agree with Alvarez6's take too, and I also agree with you about Westbrook.

He had some of the most horrible play I have ever seen from a PG in last season's playoffs. Oklahoma might have gone further if it wasn't for his horrible boneheaded plays. There is no way I would ever allow him to take 30 shots a game with KD on the team.

[ALVAREZ6]

I agree with Alvarez6's take too, and I also agree with you about Westbrook.

He had some of the most horrible play I have ever seen from a PG in last season's playoffs. Oklahoma might have gone further if it wasn't for his horrible boneheaded plays. There is no way I would ever allow him to take 30 shots a game with KD on the team.

I can see both sides (with Westbrook). He and Parker have a lot of the same fundamental offensive skills, and you're absolutely right about his performance in last year's postseason. He was fucking atrocious with his decision making. But he had great numbers in the regular season, as did Parker, and he's a young PG with limited experience in the playoffs. It's not like Parker didn't make a lot of bonehead plays against Memphis...he had some bad shot selection, costly turnovers, and fell asleep on D in the clutch. The two players had similar situations, sort of.

But I am in no way trying to argue for Westbrook's sake against Parker, I hate Westbrook and would never choose him over Parker. They are relatively similar though in ability. Of course, Parker is older and is a proven winner.

[SpursDynasty85]

Tony Parker is being debated as to whether he is HOF worthy. This title is bs. He's already proven he was an elite pg. Is he elite now? probably not, but he took his team to the playoffs as the #1 seed. Thats successful enough for me... No way does it all go on Tony's shoulder. In hindsight, you have to look at Pops decision to go all out for #1 seed in the NBA as ridiculous considering they had the West already lockedup. Timmy's bum ankle, Manu's fractured elbow, there was not much Tony could do against that physical Memphis team. He is still a top 7 pg imo.

1. Chris Paul
2. Deron Williams
3. Derrick Rose
4. Rajon Rondo
5. Russell Westbrook
6. Steve Nash
6. Tony Parker

[ElNono]

Derrick Rose is a lot like Tony in that they can be an offensive force, but Rose simply can finish with much more authority around the basket than Tony ever could. A much, much more athletic guy, who has a tremendous upside, and it's much harder to cover. I thought the league MVP trophy was well deserved.

I also agree with those saying Westbrook is overrated, at least at the moment. He has a lot to learn about the game.

[ALVAREZ6]

Derrick Rose is a lot like Tony in that they can be an offensive force, but Rose simply can finish with much more authority around the basket than Tony ever could. A much, much more athletic guy, who has a tremendous upside, and it's much harder to cover. I thought the league MVP trophy was well deserved.

I also agree with those saying Westbrook is overrated, at least at the moment. He has a lot to learn about the game.

Not only that, but I'd say the majority of his limitations are his pathetic attitude. His actions on the court imply that he thinks he's just as good of a player as Durant and that he should be shooting just as often. A lot of us know that OKC veteran player(s) think the same thing. He has just about all of the physical attributes to be a great NBA point guard..he's 6'4", quick, explosive, extremely athletic in general. All of these things give him a clear advantage on offense and defense. If he stops being a bitch, knows his role, and like you say understands the game better, he could be a perennial all-star.

[will_spurs]

It's going to be hard to "finally expose" Tony Parker, since he has done enough in his career to be called a great player. Anybody who doubts that is a clear hater in my view.

On the other hand he's obviously not perfect. He's been considered one of the bests at his position for most of his career, but never seemed to be able to go to the superstar level. That doesn't suddenly make him a scrub either.

Re: the argument that comes up very often that he was "destroyed" by Mike Conley in the last playoffs, I have a few points to make:
- first of all he wasn't "destroyed". It's not like his stats or contribution dropped significantly (actually he scored more than in the RS). It's not like his opponent suddenly became Superman either--just check Conley's RS stats vs playoffs, actually the most significant difference was that his shooting was absolutely dreadful in the playoffs (below 40%). I guess what people actually mean is that Parker didn't destroy Conley, as some apparently expected he would. Which leads me to my next point.
- Parker isn't a typical PG. He has his own style and his own strengths and weaknesses, which are actually quite unique in the NBA. He is certainly a member of a VERY small group of PGs who could finish that well in the paint. The main issue with a player like that is that either the coach/team play around that, and things will be great; or they try to fit a square peg into a round hole and things are suddenly not going to be so nice any more. Tony needs a decent presence inside and a sharpshooter from the perimeter to be able to express himself. When the Spurs get dominated inside the way they were against Memphis, and the sharpshooters take a week off, then he struggles. It was exactly the same with France against Spain: the point is not who is the opposing PG and how good he is. It's all about inside presence and 3-pt shooters. In this respect I'd say Tony did what he could against Memphis, but it was a bad matchup for his style of play, and that has ZERO to do with Conley.
- the last point is specifically re: Conley, though. People seem to be surprised that some players on the other team can actually play... I guess they're supposed to just roll over when they play the Spurs? Conley is a young guard (23) with 4 seasons in the league and only 1 playoff run. It's not like he's a proven scrub. His contribution has increased steadily since he joined the NBA, and there's nothing pointing to the fact that he will never be an excellent player. In a way this reminds me of Rondo: when he was playing well in the playoffs, instead of saying that people were saying that the opposing PG sucked. With time, Rondo showed he actually deserved some credit for that. the same might well happen with Conley.

[lefty]

It's going to be hard to "finally expose" Tony Parker, since he has done enough in his career to be called a great player.Anybody who doubts that is a clear hater in my view.
:lmao

[Cane]

Conley did destroy Tony Parker but it was in the playmaking and making teammates better departments which happen to be the primary roles for a PG.

Parker also had nearly as many turnovers as the entire Grizzlies did in one of the games (7 versus 8). In that same game, Conley had 7 assists and just 1 turnover while Parker had 7 turnovers and just 1 assist. :( :depressed

For the series, Parker totaled 20 turnovers and just 31 assists. Conley had just 13 turnovers and 37 assists. Thats a pretty significant difference :wow

In that Grizz series Parker even had trouble just bringing up the ball and got it easily swiped away which is seen in his relatively shitty assist/turnover ratio.





- the last point is specifically re: Conley, though. People seem to be surprised that some players on the other team can actually play... I guess they're supposed to just roll over when they play the Spurs? Conley is a young guard (23) with 4 seasons in the league and only 1 playoff run. It's not like he's a proven scrub. His contribution has increased steadily since he joined the NBA, and there's nothing pointing to the fact that he will never be an excellent player. In a way this reminds me of Rondo: when he was playing well in the playoffs, instead of saying that people were saying that the opposing PG sucked. With time, Rondo showed he actually deserved some credit for that. the same might well happen with Conley.

Earlier in the season NBA fans laughed at Conley's relatively lucrative contract. Spurs fans expected Finals MVP Tony Parker to have his way with Conley but Conley's superior playmaking made it a much more even matchup. That was one of the few matchups that should've been in the Spurs favor and they really needed Parker to play at an elite level to carry them in the first game but it didn't happen.

Parker used to be a top 3-5 PG but to me he's been declining for the past couple of seasons (http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153976) and thats the way it goes with score-first guards that rely on athleticism like Parker's fading quickness. His shooting, defense, and other skills really haven't been improving much to make up for his decline either which has been disappointing to watch.

Parker can have his way with some of the older slow guards like Kidd but against younger guards that are competent defensively...he's not going to have that Finals MVP advantage even though he's the youngest and healthiest member of the Big 3. Hell even some old PG's like Andre Miller can give Parker a run for the money. In the recent international games, even Jose Calderon lit Tony Parker up and Parker again had turnover issues.

[therealtruth]

It's going to be hard to "finally expose" Tony Parker, since he has done enough in his career to be called a great player. Anybody who doubts that is a clear hater in my view.

On the other hand he's obviously not perfect. He's been considered one of the bests at his position for most of his career, but never seemed to be able to go to the superstar level. That doesn't suddenly make him a scrub either.

Re: the argument that comes up very often that he was "destroyed" by Mike Conley in the last playoffs, I have a few points to make:
- first of all he wasn't "destroyed". It's not like his stats or contribution dropped significantly (actually he scored more than in the RS). It's not like his opponent suddenly became Superman either--just check Conley's RS stats vs playoffs, actually the most significant difference was that his shooting was absolutely dreadful in the playoffs (below 40%). I guess what people actually mean is that Parker didn't destroy Conley, as some apparently expected he would. Which leads me to my next point.
- Parker isn't a typical PG. He has his own style and his own strengths and weaknesses, which are actually quite unique in the NBA. He is certainly a member of a VERY small group of PGs who could finish that well in the paint. The main issue with a player like that is that either the coach/team play around that, and things will be great; or they try to fit a square peg into a round hole and things are suddenly not going to be so nice any more. Tony needs a decent presence inside and a sharpshooter from the perimeter to be able to express himself. When the Spurs get dominated inside the way they were against Memphis, and the sharpshooters take a week off, then he struggles. It was exactly the same with France against Spain: the point is not who is the opposing PG and how good he is. It's all about inside presence and 3-pt shooters. In this respect I'd say Tony did what he could against Memphis, but it was a bad matchup for his style of play, and that has ZERO to do with Conley.
- the last point is specifically re: Conley, though. People seem to be surprised that some players on the other team can actually play... I guess they're supposed to just roll over when they play the Spurs? Conley is a young guard (23) with 4 seasons in the league and only 1 playoff run. It's not like he's a proven scrub. His contribution has increased steadily since he joined the NBA, and there's nothing pointing to the fact that he will never be an excellent player. In a way this reminds me of Rondo: when he was playing well in the playoffs, instead of saying that people were saying that the opposing PG sucked. With time, Rondo showed he actually deserved some credit for that. the same might well happen with Conley.

Alot of good points. I think the consensus is that Parker's style of play can be detrimental if he's not scoring efficiently or the other team is packing the paint and the shooters can't make them pay. That is the reason for all the mentioned playoff failures of TP such as in 2004. Like you said Memphis had a good game plan. They stayed with him on the drives by dropping into the paint and ran the shooters of the 3 point line. At that point it became a battle of wills and the Grizzlies just fought harder.

The problem I have with the first round exit is that sometimes if you see your players can't play any harder you have to change the strategy to give them a chance. At the very least the element of surprise can make a difference in a close series. If Parker was struggling in the half court they needed to speed up the tempo. He's still one of the best fastbreak players and it would likely have helped RJ.

[therealtruth]

Conley did destroy Tony Parker but it was in the playmaking and making teammates better departments which happen to be the primary roles for a PG.

Parker also had nearly as many turnovers as the entire Grizzlies did in one of the games (7 versus 8). In that same game, Conley had 7 assists and just 1 turnover while Parker had 7 turnovers and just 1 assist. :( :depressed

For the series, Parker totaled 20 turnovers and just 31 assists. Conley had just 13 turnovers and 37 assists. Thats a pretty significant difference :wow

In that Grizz series Parker even had trouble just bringing up the ball and got it easily swiped away which is seen in his relatively shitty assist/turnover ratio.





Earlier in the season NBA fans laughed at Conley's relatively lucrative contract. Spurs fans expected Finals MVP Tony Parker to have his way with Conley but Conley's superior playmaking made it a much more even matchup. That was one of the few matchups that should've been in the Spurs favor and they really needed Parker to play at an elite level to carry them in the first game but it didn't happen.

Parker used to be a top 3-5 PG but to me he's been declining for the past couple of seasons (http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153976) and thats the way it goes with score-first guards that rely on athleticism like Parker's fading quickness. His shooting, defense, and other skills really haven't been improving much to make up for his decline either which has been disappointing to watch.

Parker can have his way with some of the older slow guards like Kidd but against younger guards that are competent defensively...he's not going to have that Finals MVP advantage even though he's the youngest and healthiest member of the Big 3. Hell even some old PG's like Andre Miller can give Parker a run for the money.

That assist to turnover ratio speaks volumes. Having a ball hogging player at the point is more detrimental than any other position because it makes it harder for anybody else to get going. Parker's ball hogging worked with Bruce Bowen because he didn't need any touches. He was fine with standing in the corner and knocking down 3's and playing lockdown defense. Players like him and Shane Battier are hard to find. Most players need touches to be involved on offense and defense. It's alot easier when you get a pass in a position ready to score. Parker either needs to play more like a point or they need to exchange Jefferson for Battier. To his credit he did show some flashes of being able to get everyone involved (particularly RJ) at the beginning of last season. I think he was averaging around 8 assist per game.

[FkLA]

To the French/Parker apologists:

Noone is saying Parker is a complete scrub just that hes always been overrated. Hes a great scorer especially in the regular season but too often hes been contained in the playoffs, and the Spurs have been outed as a result. We arent just talking about 2011 either, Parker has been costing the Spurs series since he first came into the league because hes never been able to develop a solid outside shot.

[Dex]

That assist to turnover ratio speaks volumes. Having a ball hogging player at the point is more detrimental than any other position because it makes it harder for anybody else to get going. Parker's ball hogging worked with Bruce Bowen because he didn't need any touches. He was fine with standing in the corner and knocking down 3's and playing lockdown defense. Players like him and Shane Battier are hard to find. Most players need touches to be involved on offense and defense. It's alot easier when you get a pass in a position ready to score. Parker either needs to play more like a point or they need to exchange Jefferson for Battier. To his credit he did show some flashes of being able to get everyone involved (particularly RJ) at the beginning of last season. I think he was averaging around 8 assist per game.

Another problem with Parker's "court vision" is that, generally speaking, it is very dependent upon his teammates making shots. With his ability to get in the paint, Parker's most prominent type of assists are going to be to drive, suck the defense in, and kick out to open shooters, but that doesn't actually become an assist unless the shooter hits his shot.

Parker isn't the type of point guard to rack up assists on alley-oop lobs, hitting cutters, or spoon-feeding post players. Those types of plays are converted like 70-90% of the time, as opposed to the 30-50% that a jump-shooter might hit his shots.

At the beginning of the season, when the offense was clicking and the Spurs had like 3-4 guys hitting threes at a 50% clip, it made Parker shine. Compare that to the playoff series against Memphis, where they did a good job closing out on shooters (and shooters didn't do a very good job even when they were open), Parker suddenly started to look a lot more mediocre (albeit in a much smaller sample size), as evidenced by that atrocious assist/turnover ratio.

Unfortunately, that's how the playoffs work, and that brings me back to my original point: When the big lights come on, shooters better hit their shots, because otherwise one of the Spurs' main strengths (Parker's drive-and-dish ability) becomes one of their weaknesses (lots of missed longballs which fuels the opponent's break).

[Brazil]

Parker has been costing the Spurs series since he first came into the league because hes never been able to develop a solid outside shot.

:lmao

[lefty]

:lmao
Well, he does have a point :lmao

He has been useless in series against teams who could stop his penetrations

[Brazil]

Well, he does have a point :lmao

He has been useless in series against teams who could stop his penetrations

:lmao

[Blanchard 48MoH]

Tony Parker is an elite point guard, just not quite up to par with Chris Paul or Deron Williams. Derrick Rose is like an upgraded version of Parker for that matter as well. He's easily the best non-American point guard in the world.

Is he a traditional point guard? No. A well-rounded one? No. Players like Kyle Lowrie might have stronger all-around games. But what separates Parker from guys like him is he has two elite skills. Parker is second to none at dribble penetration and finishing at the rim. He's solid if not great in most other aspects of his game. That means while he might not be consistently great like Paul or Williams, on any given night he can more than offset their production.

For more thoughts: http://www.48minutesofhell.com/whats-in-a-rating

[DPG21920]

Exactly. That's what kills me with the Westbrook stuff. There is a reason that Westbrook shoots a terrible % despite being athletically superior to TP and why TP is constantly one of the most efficient scoring guards in the league. It's a skill and TP is elite at it.

[portnoy1]

First of all, an ELITE player should be nearly unstoppable regardless of who he plays with. Parker, Rose and Westbrook are all stoppable. Paul, Nash and Williams are a little more difficult to guard. Take away all the jumpshooters and Parker can't penetrate, then that high fg% everyone uses to justify his weakness in playmaking becomes 'null n void'. Ask him to shoot 50% from the field taking 16ft jumpers, most nights he wont. Paul and Nash especially will burn you if you try that tactic, which is why they get into the lane whenever they feel like it regardless.

And this thing about spacing the floor for DUNCAN really irritates me, especially when a 10/10/2 player like Nazr Mohammed worked wonders for the Spurs and the dude could barely score outside of 5ft. Take away Parker and I am almost sure RJ gets touches in the post, off cuts and in transition. Also Bonner will be of no use anymore either. Then Tim Duncan can get the help he needs.

[lefty]

:lmao
0 argument in your last 2 posts

Thanks :hat

[FkLA]

:lmao

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/images/flags/France.gif

Brazil is a Spurs fan from France.


Tony Parker is an elite point guard, just not quite up to par with Chris Paul or Deron Williams. Derrick Rose is like an upgraded version of Parker for that matter as well. He's easily the best non-American point guard in the world.

Is he a traditional point guard? No. A well-rounded one? No. Players like Kyle Lowrie might have stronger all-around games. But what separates Parker from guys like him is he has two elite skills. Parker is second to none at dribble penetration and finishing at the rim. He's solid if not great in most other aspects of his game. That means while he might not be consistently great like Paul or Williams, on any given night he can more than offset their production.

For more thoughts: http://www.48minutesofhell.com/whats-in-a-rating

I agree that hes elite at penetrating and finishing at the rim, possibly the best at his position when it comes to that.

What happens when teams gameplan around him, and pack the lane in the playoffs to combat his elite skills though? Go back as far as 04' where the Spurs had a 2-0 lead on LA and Parker was wrecking havoc, LA packed the lane on him and started committing hard fouls and Parker was completely neutralized. Result was an LA backdoor sweep. Look as recent as this past year, Grizz are able to contain his penetration/Parker isnt finishing at the rim...Parker is neutralized and Spurs lose to an 8th seed.

He doesnt have the courtvision or shot to still perform at an elite level when teams contain his penetration, which he depends on to get his points and his assists. Hes not really clutch either, people point to that Finals MVP to prove he is but the nigga isnt. You need a solid outside shot and multiple ways of attacking a defense to be clutch and Parker doesnt have that. He crumbles too many times in big moments for him to be considered elite.

[Brazil]

0 argument in your last 2 posts

Thanks :hat

Yeahhh I'm going to waste my time to argue with Lefty and Fkla about TP :lmao

[lefty]

Yeahhh I'm going to waste my time to argue with Lefty and Fkla about TP :lmao
And that post is not helping you :rollin

[Lady M]

To the French/Parker apologists:

Noone is saying Parker is a complete scrub just that hes always been overrated. Hes a great scorer especially in the regular season but too often hes been contained in the playoffs, and the Spurs have been outed as a result. We arent just talking about 2011 either, Parker has been costing the Spurs series since he first came into the league because hes never been able to develop a solid outside shot.

if you think he's overrated in this forum you think it's a scrub

[Brazil]

And that post is not helping you :rollin

:lmao your quotes are quite useful too with some pretty good arguments


2007: Boobie Gibson :lol
lol finals mvp


2007........

The Curse of Boobie Gibson .......

http://images.wikia.com/nba/images/9/93/Mike_Conley_Jr.jpg


Pretty much
The only times TP has shined in the playoffs have been agaisnt piss poor defensive PG's - Nash and Gibson - or teams


That's a fact


:lmao


Well, he does have a point :lmao

He has been useless in series against teams who could stop his penetrations

[lefty]

:lmao

[DMC]

On the same comment:
"Spurs mainly had the clear advantage at pg and sf. They failed to use those advantages."

Didn't know you were talking only about the latter part. My mistake.



How you or I want TP to play doesn't matter. It really is what the other team allows him to do. I don't know he could've penetrated more often or better against Memphis, because they packed the paint well, but without a fairly solid jumper to keep them honest, he ended up fizzling for the first 3 games. You don't play Boobby Gibson and the Cavs every series.

And no, it wasn't just TP that costs us the series, it was a combination of factors. But that was one contributing factor.
Really, you're preaching to the choir. I was only commenting about people who seem to think a player the caliber of Parker needs to be like a Mike Conley, because Memphis beat us.

If anything (and I don't even think this actually), Tony should just play as well as he has or can, not play like this or that person.

People have short memories.

[therealtruth]

First of all, an ELITE player should be nearly unstoppable regardless of who he plays with. Parker, Rose and Westbrook are all stoppable. Paul, Nash and Williams are a little more difficult to guard. Take away all the jumpshooters and Parker can't penetrate, then that high fg% everyone uses to justify his weakness in playmaking becomes 'null n void'. Ask him to shoot 50% from the field taking 16ft jumpers, most nights he wont. Paul and Nash especially will burn you if you try that tactic, which is why they get into the lane whenever they feel like it regardless.

And this thing about spacing the floor for DUNCAN really irritates me, especially when a 10/10/2 player like Nazr Mohammed worked wonders for the Spurs and the dude could barely score outside of 5ft. Take away Parker and I am almost sure RJ gets touches in the post, off cuts and in transition. Also Bonner will be of no use anymore either. Then Tim Duncan can get the help he needs.

I have to agree 100%. Parker's playoff failures have come from teams making the adjustments to pack the lane and the failure of the outside shooters to be able to make them pay. This happened as far back as 2004. He should have made the adjustment by now. The Spurs have relied to heavily on the spacing the floor thing for too long and it's been wildly inconsistent. They can't keep hoping the role players are going to hit their shots. They need a plan B if it's not working. The Spurs haven't got a true backup point since Jacque Vaughn. They certainly could have used Nazr but Splitter's probably even better. The just need to use him and limit Bonner's minutes.

[DMC]

I have to agree 100%. Parker's playoff failures have come from teams making the adjustments to pack the lane and the failure of the outside shooters to be able to make them pay. This happened as far back as 2004. He should have made the adjustment by now. The Spurs have relied to heavily on the spacing the floor thing for too long and it's been wildly inconsistent. They can't keep hoping the role players are going to hit their shots. They need a plan B if it's not working. The Spurs haven't got a true backup point since Jacque Vaughn. They certainly could have used Nazr but Splitter's probably even better. The just need to use him and limit Bonner's minutes.

The Spurs almost finished with the best record in the league.

How can their offense be "wildly inconsistent"?

[Calispursfan11]

According to the link on the 2k12 ratings thread, TP is worse than Paul, Westbrook, Nash, Rondo, Williams, Rose, Monta Ellis (who kind of plays PG at times), and JOHN WALL (who I completely forgot about). Chauncey or Baron Davis anyone?

[joshdaboss]

Chauncey or Baron Davis anyone?

Both have been shit for awhile, Davis for what seems like half a decade.

[Anonymous Cowherd]

According to the link on the 2k12 ratings thread, TP is worse than Paul, Westbrook, Nash, Rondo, Williams, Rose, Monta Ellis (who kind of plays PG at times), and JOHN WALL (who I completely forgot about). Chauncey or Baron Davis anyone?

and I for one am shocked that on a video game a Spurs player would receive a lesser rating than players in much larger media markets.

[lefty]

According to the link on the 2k12 ratings thread, TP is worse than Paul, Westbrook, Nash, Rondo, Williams, Rose, Monta Ellis (who kind of plays PG at times), and JOHN WALL
Makes sense

Parker is a piece of shit

[Pauleta14]

According to 48moh Hill and Parker have the same rating (80)...


:depressed:wow:lol

[Calispursfan11]

According to 48moh Hill and Parker have the same rating (80)...


:depressed:wow:lol

LOL, I think it's close to being true though. I think Hill's court vision and PG skills are actually quite a bit worse than Tony's if that's possible, but he excels in the athleticand long range bombing categories.

[Calispursfan11]

and I for one am shocked that on a video game a Spurs player would receive a lesser rating than players in much larger media markets.

I sense sarcasm.

[will_spurs]

Parker is a piece of shit

And you're a broken record. To each his own.

[lefty]

And you're a broken record. To each his own.
http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo168/Futurecnice/joker-laugh.gif

[Nathan89]

...but I thought he had a great jumper now.:rolleyes

[lefty]

...but I thought he had a great jumper now.:rolleyes
He did bite on Conley's pumpfakes

[Brazil]

Makes sense

Parker is a piece of shit


http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo168/Futurecnice/joker-laugh.gif


He did bite on Conley's pumpfakes

:lmao

[Calispursfan11]

Is it possible that Conley is simply the next big thing and we're not giving him enough credit? If so, then we can't be as hard on Tony since his matchup with Conley may very well have been a symbolic passing of the torch from one great PG to the next great PG of the future...

[FkLA]

Is it possible that Conley is simply the next big thing and we're not giving him enough credit? If so, then we can't be as hard on Tony since his matchup with Conley may very well have been a symbolic passing of the torch from one great PG to the next great PG of the future...

No. He might turn out to be a good starting PG, but I doubt he even makes an all-star game with how stacked this era is with great PGs. I dont think he'll ever be as good as even Parker much less the top guns.

[therealtruth]

Conley didn't do anything spectacular. He just made open jump shots, took care of the ball, made the right passes, and played hard defense. He played a solid floor game. The elite pg's in the league can beat you with the score of the assist. Since Parker's assists mainly come from his ability to score he hurts the team when he can't do that efficiently. It's why the Spurs tried to get Kidd back in '03.

[Calispursfan11]

Conley didn't do anything spectacular. He just made open jump shots, took care of the ball, made the right passes, and played hard defense. He played a solid floor game. The elite pg's in the league can beat you with the score of the assist. Since Parker's assists mainly come from his ability to score he hurts the team when he can't do that efficiently. It's why the Spurs tried to get Kidd back in '03.

To me, being able to pull off all that you just said of Conley, excluding the assist skills of Kidd, still makes Conley pretty darn good. I would say he's knocking on the door of very very good status and may have what it takes to get there soon.

[rmt]

If Parker plays anywhere near his normal, Spurs win vs MEM. He shouldn't have 3 straight bad games in the playoffs when Manu is hurt and TD is old and Mike Conley is guarding him. I remember times when he couldn't even bring the ball up the court - that's inexcusable for a playoff vet to get so flustered. Him and Pop trotting out Bonner and Blair/benching Splitter for 3 games were the major reasons for them losing.

[Giuseppe]

^Pop can cut the mustard no more.

[Brazil]

If Parker plays anywhere near his normal, Spurs win vs MEM (...) Manu is hurt and TD is old and Mike Conley is guarding him. (..) Him and Pop trotting out Bonner and Blair/benching Splitter for 3 games were the major reasons for them losing.

That doesn't make any sense

[portnoy1]

If Parker plays anywhere near his normal, Spurs win vs MEM. He shouldn't have 3 straight bad games in the playoffs when Manu is hurt and TD is old and Mike Conley is guarding him. I remember times when he couldn't even bring the ball up the court - that's inexcusable for a playoff vet to get so flustered. Him and Pop trotting out Bonner and Blair/benching Splitter for 3 games were the major reasons for them losing.
I'll say it again. Bonner is not out there if Parker had a jumpshot; Jefferson is not in the corner all the time if Parker had court-vision.

When your main offensive weapon has weaknesses like that, you are forced to work around it. If you put Splitter and Duncan together for long periods of time then Parker can't roam the lane as freely which debugs the Spurs inside/outside offense.

[therealtruth]

I'll say it again. Bonner is not out there if Parker had a jumpshot; Jefferson is not in the corner all the time if Parker had court-vision.

When your main offensive weapon has weaknesses like that, you are forced to work around it. If you put Splitter and Duncan together for long periods of time then Parker can't roam the lane as freely which debugs the Spurs inside/outside offense.

Parker enables Bonner to get minutes and reduces RJ to a corner 3pt shooter. Everyone else (Manu and Time) can adjust to different styles of play but Parker can only play one way. Parker has no plan B if teams take away his paths to the basket and due to his lack of passing ability he forces everyone to stand around the 3pt line so he knows where to make the passes. The guy should at least be able to find RJ for an alley-oop without a set play.

[portnoy1]

Parker enables Bonner to get minutes and reduces RJ to a corner 3pt shooter. Everyone else (Manu and Time) can adjust to different styles of play but Parker can only play one way. Parker has no plan B if teams take away his paths to the basket and due to his lack of passing ability he forces everyone to stand around the 3pt line so he knows where to make the passes. The guy should at least be able to find RJ for an alley-oop without a set play.
Thats why, I dont mind trading Parker. Spurs need to bend over backwards and do whatever is nessecary to get chris paul. After that, they can get all the different role players the Spurs need. a 2/3 defensive stopper, a mobile 4 and a hulking 5 to guard the bynums. All the players mentioned are available on the cheap, you just need a point guard that can shoot and stir the pot offensively.

[will_spurs]

http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo168/Futurecnice/joker-laugh.gif

Who's laughing now?