View Full Version : One of the better top 100 lists I've seen (Dirk gets his due!).
midnightpulp
09-27-2011, 01:15 AM
Of course, no list will be ever be "perfect" when opinion is involved, but this is one of the more thoughtful and objective lists I've seen, and the first list I know of that had the balls to put Dirk over .463 and Barkley.
Changes I would make is exchange Russell with Kareem, Hakeem with Oscar, move Wilt down to 10 (most overrated player ever), which would move everyone up a spot. For the players below the top 10, I'd exchange Dirk and Pettit, and KG and Cousy.
http://basketballjournalist.blogspot.com/2011/07/ranking-top-100-players-in-nba-history.html
midnightpulp
09-27-2011, 01:18 AM
Oh, and A.I. wouldn't make my top 50.
pass1st
09-27-2011, 01:26 AM
I'd put LBJ in the 30s for now, at least until he passes his prime.
fevertrees
09-27-2011, 03:29 AM
lol @ putting D-Whistle so early on
Koolaid_Man
09-27-2011, 06:50 AM
Of course, no list will be ever be "perfect" when opinion is involved, but this is one of the more thoughtful and objective lists I've seen, and the first list I know of that had the balls to put Dirk over .463 and Barkley.
Changes I would make is exchange Russell with Kareem, Hakeem with Oscar, move Wilt down to 10 (most overrated player ever), which would move everyone up a spot. For the players below the top 10, I'd exchange Dirk and Pettit, and KG and Cousy.
http://basketballjournalist.blogspot.com/2011/07/ranking-top-100-players-in-nba-history.html
:lol here's a bit of objectivity for you...Duncan is 33 and 22 in points and rebounds respectively...what rates him so high...ohh wait is it titles won? :lol If so then we need to go with the old tried and true:
Kobe 5
Tired Old shitbag 4
and just like that Kool dismantles the blogger who has really nice pictures on his blog...:lmao
ElNono
09-27-2011, 11:59 AM
Solid list, IMO, FWIW
Frenzy
09-27-2011, 12:07 PM
List haters :lol
Leetonidas
09-27-2011, 12:17 PM
:lol here's a bit of objectivity for you...Duncan is 33 and 22 in points and rebounds respectively...what rates him so high...ohh wait is it titles won? :lol If so then we need to go with the old tried and true:
Kobe 5
Tired Old shitbag 4
and just like that Kool dismantles the blogger who has really nice pictures on his blog...:lmao
Nah it's because only Lakerfan thinks Kobe's titles are comparable to Duncan when he wasn't the alpha for any of them but one while Merlin routinely put the Spurs on his back and took a fat shit on everyone. The rest of the world knows where Timmy is ranked, just not you shit stains. :toast
Koolaid_Man
09-27-2011, 12:30 PM
Nah it's because only Lakerfan thinks Kobe's titles are comparable to Duncan when he wasn't the alpha for any of them but one while Merlin routinely put the Spurs on his back and took a fat shit on everyone. The rest of the world knows where Timmy is ranked, just not you shit stains. :toast
:lol...unfortunately the records books do too... 33 & 22 :lol
Leetonidas
09-27-2011, 12:31 PM
:lol all-time regular season ranks meaning something
stretch
09-27-2011, 12:31 PM
At least they got David Robinson right. Dude has no place in the top 25 of all time.
Koolaid_Man
09-27-2011, 12:35 PM
:lol all-time regular season ranks meaning something
it means just as much as winning as the "main" guy does...:lol
Roger Freemason Jr.
09-27-2011, 03:46 PM
Extremely accurate list. I agree with Russel being #2 as well, don't care what anyone else says.
ClipshowDynasty
09-27-2011, 03:55 PM
You didn't listen to your doctor too tbh when hr told you you were a fuckin fatass and would die at 45 cause of heart attack
Lol 5'11 220lb
Giuseppe
09-27-2011, 04:12 PM
You didn't listen to your doctor too tbh when hr told you you were a fuckin fatass and would die at 45 cause of heart attack
Lol 5'11 220lb
Team: Los Angeles Clippers
Dirk being 18 is laughable and your opinion that you would swap him to right outside the top 10 is just ridiculous. :lol
Im assuming it has something to do with the fact that hes white. Dude has been second-tier for most of his career, most of his years he wasnt the best player at his own position or even a Top 5 player in the league. Hes Top 25 at best.
stretch
09-27-2011, 04:49 PM
shut the fuck up
Prime KG
09-27-2011, 04:50 PM
Dirk being 18 is laughable and your opinion that you would swap him to right outside the top 10 is just ridiculous. :lol
Im assuming it has something to do with the fact that hes white. Dude has been second-tier for most of his career, most of his years he wasnt the best player at his own position or even a Top 5 player in the league. Hes Top 25 at best.
Preach!
nowhereman523
09-27-2011, 05:46 PM
Good list, but I think Kobe + KG are a little overrated.
Roger Freemason Jr.
09-27-2011, 06:08 PM
You didn't listen to your doctor too tbh when hr told you you were a fuckin fatass and would die at 45 cause of heart attack
Lol 5'11 220lb
Yawn.
Deuce Bigalow
09-27-2011, 06:41 PM
oscar in the top 10?
lol
badfish22
09-27-2011, 07:23 PM
Dirk being 18 is laughable and your opinion that you would swap him to right outside the top 10 is just ridiculous. :lol
Im assuming it has something to do with the fact that hes white. Dude has been second-tier for most of his career, most of his years he wasnt the best player at his own position or even a Top 5 player in the league. Hes Top 25 at best.
:lmao I knew I would see SFL in here.
Roger Freemason Jr.
09-27-2011, 07:32 PM
Dirk being 18 is laughable and your opinion that you would swap him to right outside the top 10 is just ridiculous. :lol
Im assuming it has something to do with the fact that hes white. Dude has been second-tier for most of his career, most of his years he wasnt the best player at his own position or even a Top 5 player in the league. Hes Top 25 at best.
He's a franchise player, the only mediocre aspects of his game are defense and rebounding, but his other skills make him more than worthy for number 18, in my opinion.
I like Dirk, I always imagined a TD and Dirk frontcourt, and how dominating they would be.
SpursDynasty85
09-27-2011, 07:32 PM
hmm, did someone really just laugh about Oscar being in the top 10? Nothing funny at all about that one..
TD 21
09-27-2011, 08:07 PM
Like many lists, older players are overrated and current/recently active players are underrated.
Hill at 99, Paul at 86, Webber at 83, Mourning at 82, Allen at 81, McGrady at 75, Pierce at 73, Howard at 71, Wade at 29, Robinson at 27, James at 25, Garnett at 24, Malone at 19, Olajuwon at 12 and Duncan at 8, are all underrated, some significantly so.
So many are so scared of coming off as disrespecting older players that they overrate them, in order to sound knowledgeable. But the truth of the matter is, Cousy, for example, wasn't anywhere near the player Paul is, as advanced stats bear out. Pull the "championships" argument all you want, but look at the league Cousy won them in and the teammates he had. For every player I mentioned, I could find at least one similar example of a player from a different generation, at the same position, who isn't as good as them, yet is rated higher and in some cases much higher.
joshdaboss
09-28-2011, 12:34 AM
Dirk ahead of guys like Karl Malone and David Robinson is absolutely insane.
He's a franchise player, the only mediocre aspects of his game are defense and rebounding, but his other skills make him more than worthy for number 18, in my opinion.
So in other words he only plays on one side of the ball? :lol
Noone is saying he wasnt a franchise player either, most players in the ~Top 30-40 were franchise players...the level of those franchise players varies though. Dirk is the bottom tier of those franchise players. For most of his career he was never the best player at his position or even a Top 5 player in the league, and his Mavs track record in the postseason was absolute shit prior to this season. Thats why I rank him in the Top 25-30 range, which isnt even that bad especially for a one-dimensional player. Mavfags just get offended way too easily when people dont suck off Dirk like they do.
stretch
09-28-2011, 09:39 AM
Dirk ahead of guys like Karl Malone and David Robinson is absolutely acceptable.
ambchang
09-28-2011, 12:25 PM
Fair or unfair, some players are defined by one playoff run, series, or even a game.
stretch
09-28-2011, 12:27 PM
lol ambchang
ambchang
09-28-2011, 01:06 PM
I know, it's pretty funny how there are so many people stupid enough to completely revise a player's ranking after one playoff run.
WeNeedLength
09-28-2011, 01:23 PM
I like how the douchebag thread derailers are staying mostly out of this thread. Good list, that blogger must have taken a while to write that all. I agree Wilt should be lower despite his awesome numbers.
MR.SILVER&BLack
09-28-2011, 01:38 PM
top 50 is pretty good. of course with some players that should move up or down a spot with a few that should jump or fall 5-10 spots. 51-100 could have been better. good list tho.
stretch
09-28-2011, 02:10 PM
I know, it's pretty funny how there are so many people stupid enough to completely revise a player's ranking after one playoff run.
one legit playoff run as the leader of your team to go along with several massively failed playoff runs, is better than no legit playoff run as the leader of your team to go along with several massively failed playoff runs
one legit playoff run as the leader of your team to go along with several massively failed playoff runs, is better than no legit playoff run as the leader of your team to go along with several massively failed playoff runs
does this logic assume that the circumstances (quality of teammates, payrolls, etc)of each player are all equal ?
nowhereman523
09-28-2011, 03:56 PM
does this logic assume that the circumstances (quality of teammates, payrolls, etc)of each player are all equal ?
idiot.
stretch
09-28-2011, 04:13 PM
:cry :cry :cry
with this logic, then you could make a case that T-Mac > Duncan, because he never had the kind of talent surrounding him that Duncan had, but was a significantly more gifted and talented basketball player. but we all know what a dumbass argument that would actually be, because facts are facts.
yes, various situations do come into play to an extent, but lets not forget the fact that these are all professional basketball players. if you have a team that wins 55+ games, that team generally is capable of winning a championship. if it wins 60+, it should be among the favorites to win a championship.
Robinson had plenty of chances, and didn't even get to a fucking Finals.
Dirk had chances, got to the Finals twice, and won once.
The competition point is crap, because both had to go through tough competition. The Mavs had a damn tough road to the Finals, beating teams that used several styles of play (Portland tries to win with physical play, Lakers try to win with their well-rounded play with a dominant player both in the post and the perimeter, OKC was athletic and fast-paced, and Miami would attempt to overwhelm you mentally with super-talented, seemingly unstoppable players).
Dirk took everything that was thrown at him, face-fucked it, and did his very best to help his team win, whether they needed him to score inside, score outside, draw offensive attention to help teammates, or increase the intensity on defense and rebounding. And its not like its the first time Dirk has been doing this. He's been doing this stuff for years, especially ever since the GS series. The Mavs may have flamed out for those few years since, prior to this year, but in each and every series, even in loss, Dirk played his ass off and did everything he could do to win. This year, that attitude of his finally paid off, as it seemed to rub off on his teammates, and they all really stepped their game up as well.
The problem with lists like this one is that most people try to compare players like Russell to players like Duncan as if they played at the same time.
When a player owns the league for 10 years, they are going to make it on all the "Top" lists. So what if today's players would destroy them. It was a different era with different rules and different strategies for those rules. No one was raised to play ball back then.
So, if I had to put a team together and could pick from any player in history, sure I would have Jordan and Shaq and Tim Duncan, but I would also have people who are not even in the top 20 on that list because some are still playing.
Robinson had plenty of chances, and didn't even get to a fucking Finals.
eh?
stretch
09-28-2011, 04:16 PM
eh?
as the #1 guy
with this logic, then you could make a case that T-Mac > Duncan, because he never had the kind of talent surrounding him that Duncan had, but was a significantly more gifted and talented basketball player. but we all know what a dumbass argument that would actually be, because facts are facts.
yes, various situations do come into play to an extent, but lets not forget the fact that these are all professional basketball players. if you have a team that wins 55+ games, that team generally is capable of winning a championship. if it wins 60+, it should be among the favorites to win a championship.
Robinson had plenty of chances, and didn't even get to a fucking Finals.
Dirk had chances, got to the Finals twice, and won once.
The competition point is crap, because both had to go through tough competition. The Mavs had a damn tough road to the Finals, beating teams that used several styles of play (Portland tries to win with physical play, Lakers try to win with their well-rounded play with a dominant player both in the post and the perimeter, OKC was athletic and fast-paced, and Miami would attempt to overwhelm you mentally with super-talented, seemingly unstoppable players).
Dirk took everything that was thrown at him, face-fucked it, and did his very best to help his team win, whether they needed him to score inside, score outside, draw offensive attention to help teammates, or increase the intensity on defense and rebounding. And its not like its the first time Dirk has been doing this. He's been doing this stuff for years, especially ever since the GS series. The Mavs may have flamed out for those few years since, prior to this year, but in each and every series, even in loss, Dirk played his ass off and did everything he could do to win. This year, that attitude of his finally paid off, as it seemed to rub off on his teammates, and they all really stepped their game up as well.
Youre quite possibly the biggest Dirk nutthuger on this forum tbh, and thats saying alot. You use the dumbest comparison to try to defend your boy Dirk. This Tmac/Duncan comparison is just as retarded as your Shaq/DRob comparison in the Top 5 PFs of All-Time thread. Did Tmac infinitely impact the game defensively more than Duncan ever did?Was Tmac a significantly better rounded player than Duncan? Because thats what both DRob and KG were compared to Dirk.
And DRobs team won 55-60 games because he anchored the defense and carried the offense, it wasnt because his teammates had the talent to win that many games. Dirk never had the responsibility DRob had on both sides of the ball. Youre acting as if they did share the same responsibilities by suggesting Dirk>DRob simply because he rang as a #1 guy. Youre completely overlooking that Dirk rang as a #1 because he happened to have better players around him not because he was a better basketball player. The funny thing is supporting casts was always Mav fans argument when defending Dirk prior to this year, the excuse was that he didnt ring because Jason fking Terry was his #2 not because he was a choker. Yall even use how "weak" his supporting cast was to prop up how impressive this 2011 title run is. But when it comes to comparing Dirk to players who were superior and more well-rounded basketball player supporting casts go out the window? Fucking Dirk nuthugger :lol
as the #1 guy
That's splitting hairs on the 1999 team.
nowhereman523
09-28-2011, 05:14 PM
Youre quite possibly the biggest Dirk nutthuger on this forum tbh, and thats saying alot. You use the dumbest comparison to try to defend your boy Dirk. This Tmac/Duncan comparison is just as retarded as your Shaq/DRob comparison in the Top 5 PFs of All-Time thread. Did Tmac infinitely impact the game defensively more than Duncan ever did?Was Tmac a significantly better rounded player than Duncan? Because thats what both DRob and KG were compared to Dirk.
And DRobs team won 55-60 games because he anchored the defense and carried the offense, it wasnt because his teammates had the talent to win that many games. Dirk never had the responsibility DRob had on both sides of the ball. Youre acting as if they did share the same responsibilities by suggesting Dirk>DRob simply because he rang as a #1 guy. Youre completely overlooking that Dirk rang as a #1 because he happened to have better players around him not because he was a better basketball player. The funny thing is supporting casts was always Mav fans argument when defending Dirk prior to this year, the excuse was that he didnt ring because Jason fking Terry was his #2 not because he was a choker. Yall even use how "weak" his supporting cast was to prop up how impressive this 2011 title run is. But when it comes to comparing Dirk to players who were superior and more well-rounded basketball player supporting casts go out the window? Fucking Dirk nuthugger :lol
:rolleyes
nowhereman523
09-28-2011, 05:16 PM
Youre quite possibly the biggest Dirk nutthuger on this forum tbh, and thats saying alot. You use the dumbest comparison to try to defend your boy Dirk. This Tmac/Duncan comparison is just as retarded as your Shaq/DRob comparison in the Top 5 PFs of All-Time thread. Did Tmac infinitely impact the game defensively more than Duncan ever did?Was Tmac a significantly better rounded player than Duncan? Because thats what both DRob and KG were compared to Dirk.
And DRobs team won 55-60 games because he anchored the defense and carried the offense, it wasnt because his teammates had the talent to win that many games. Dirk never had the responsibility DRob had on both sides of the ball. Youre acting as if they did share the same responsibilities by suggesting Dirk>DRob simply because he rang as a #1 guy. Youre completely overlooking that Dirk rang as a #1 because he happened to have better players around him not because he was a better basketball player. The funny thing is supporting casts was always Mav fans argument when defending Dirk prior to this year, the excuse was that he didnt ring because Jason fking Terry was his #2 not because he was a choker. Yall even use how "weak" his supporting cast was to prop up how impressive this 2011 title run is. But when it comes to comparing Dirk to players who were superior and more well-rounded basketball player supporting casts go out the window? Fucking Dirk nuthugger :lol
http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90-473-488-90/58/5868/UCOSG00Z/posters/dallas-mavericks-dirk-nowitzki-with-mvp-championship-trophies.jpg
stretch
09-28-2011, 05:27 PM
Youre quite possibly the biggest Dirk nutthuger on this forum tbh, and thats saying alot. You use the dumbest comparison to try to defend your boy Dirk. This Tmac/Duncan comparison is just as retarded as your Shaq/DRob comparison in the Top 5 PFs of All-Time thread. Did Tmac infinitely impact the game defensively more than Duncan ever did?Was Tmac a significantly better rounded player than Duncan? Because thats what both DRob and KG were compared to Dirk.
And DRobs team won 55-60 games because he anchored the defense and carried the offense, it wasnt because his teammates had the talent to win that many games. Dirk never had the responsibility DRob had on both sides of the ball. Youre acting as if they did share the same responsibilities by suggesting Dirk>DRob simply because he rang as a #1 guy. Youre completely overlooking that Dirk rang as a #1 because he happened to have better players around him not because he was a better basketball player. The funny thing is supporting casts was always Mav fans argument when defending Dirk prior to this year, the excuse was that he didnt ring because Jason fking Terry was his #2 not because he was a choker. Yall even use how "weak" his supporting cast was to prop up how impressive this 2011 title run is. But when it comes to comparing Dirk to players who were superior and more well-rounded basketball player supporting casts go out the window? Fucking Dirk nuthugger :lol
haha i win
tool
haha i win
tool
Playing it off as trolling, even though you actually believe Dirk is a better player than Robinson was :lol
TD 21
09-28-2011, 05:34 PM
with this logic, then you could make a case that T-Mac > Duncan, because he never had the kind of talent surrounding him that Duncan had, but was a significantly more gifted and talented basketball player. but we all know what a dumbass argument that would actually be, because facts are facts.
yes, various situations do come into play to an extent, but lets not forget the fact that these are all professional basketball players. if you have a team that wins 55+ games, that team generally is capable of winning a championship. if it wins 60+, it should be among the favorites to win a championship.
Robinson had plenty of chances, and didn't even get to a fucking Finals.
Dirk had chances, got to the Finals twice, and won once.
The competition point is crap, because both had to go through tough competition. The Mavs had a damn tough road to the Finals, beating teams that used several styles of play (Portland tries to win with physical play, Lakers try to win with their well-rounded play with a dominant player both in the post and the perimeter, OKC was athletic and fast-paced, and Miami would attempt to overwhelm you mentally with super-talented, seemingly unstoppable players).
Dirk took everything that was thrown at him, face-fucked it, and did his very best to help his team win, whether they needed him to score inside, score outside, draw offensive attention to help teammates, or increase the intensity on defense and rebounding. And its not like its the first time Dirk has been doing this. He's been doing this stuff for years, especially ever since the GS series. The Mavs may have flamed out for those few years since, prior to this year, but in each and every series, even in loss, Dirk played his ass off and did everything he could do to win. This year, that attitude of his finally paid off, as it seemed to rub off on his teammates, and they all really stepped their game up as well.
The usual nonsense about how Duncan is only what he is "because he played with a lot of talent (even though he didn't)" and "because he's big (as if he's physically overwhelming, like a Chamberlain/Robinson/O'Neal/Howard). McGrady is unquestionably on the short list of most talented players of all time, but so is Duncan. Duncan didn't overwhelm players physically the vast majority of the time, he flat out out skilled them. In his prime, he could do everything, from leading a break, to being the ball handler in pick-and-rolls, to shooting on the move, to guarding face up fours, etc.
Robinson had about half of the chances Nowitzki's had and with not nearly as much talent. He'd have likely needed a consistent perimeter scorer to win a championship as a number one option, but so did everyone outside of '94 Olajuwon and '99 and '03 Duncan.
Nowitzki has no business being ranked ahead of Robinson, Malone, Barkley, Garnett, James and Wade.
Off the top of my head, guys who should have made the list but didn't: Gasol, Ginobili, Carter.
nowhereman523
09-28-2011, 05:42 PM
The usual nonsense about how Duncan is only what he is "because he played with a lot of talent (even though he didn't)" and "because he's big (as if he's physically overwhelming, like a Chamberlain/Robinson/O'Neal/Howard). McGrady is unquestionably on the short list of most talented players of all time, but so is Duncan. Duncan didn't overwhelm players physically the vast majority of the time, he flat out out skilled them. In his prime, he could do everything, from leading a break, to being the ball handler in pick-and-rolls, to shooting on the move, to guarding face up fours, etc.
Right, the above poster was using this skewed line of analysis to intentionally show how dumb some other posters are. No one is questioning Timmy in this thread, relax. #1 PF of all time, no doubt.
Robinson had about half of the chances Nowitzki's had and with not nearly as much talent. He'd have likely needed a consistent perimeter scorer to win a championship as a number one option, but so did everyone outside of '94 Olajuwon and '03 Duncan.
Hrm that list seems to be missing a certain player?
Nowitzki has no business being ranked ahead of Robinson, Malone, Barkley, Garnett, James and Wade.
False.
Off the top of my head, guys who should have made the list but didn't: Gasol, Ginobili, Carter.
True.
DPG21920
09-28-2011, 06:02 PM
I probably respect Dirk and rank him higher than most Spurs fans, but I'm not being a homer at all when I say I think David Robinson was a better player. I think the competition certainly does matter, especially how elite big men are so crucial to winning. David played in a era with much more dominant prime big men.
Taking that out of the equation though, I can't rank someone like Dirk, as great as he is and with how much more valuable being a great offensive player is normally than a great defensive player, ahead of Robinson due to his huge deficiency on one end. Dirk is clearly the superior offensive player, but Robinson's offense was still pretty elite for a big man and he was so much better defensively than Dirk I have issue with it.
The gap between Dirk's O and David's O is so much less than the gap between the two's defense. I could understand if you were comparing a really good defensive player with below average offense to an offensive player with below average defense (like Dirk), but when you have someone that is elite where the other player is (even if the other player is better in that cat) and also elite where the other player is pretty deficient, I can't rank them ahead.
I, unlike a lot of others, don't put much stock into the title smack and ring count. I think it's definitely important, but I don't just rank a guy with a ring as better than someone without. I also take into consideration that some styles are just better suited in their particular era as far as match ups go. Before Dirk won this year, he was a questionable number one guy. I don't think the title changes that. He's a great player and it's not to take away from him, but what I mean by this is that with a guy like Barkley compared to whomever for example, I don't really knock Charles down very much because of no rings.
David did have his struggles at times as well, but his struggles were against elite one on one match ups like prime Shaq, Hakeem(obviously not every playoff or anything, but just the general era).. not Bosh/Joel Anthony.
With a cast that I would say is at best equal to what Dirk had talent wise, David enjoyed just as many successes in the regular season as Dirk did. Other than that one finals run, Dirk got bounced plenty of times in the first round or second round just like David.
I just don't think that the one finals run props Dirk up any more, just like it shouldn't have counted against him as much from some stupid fans.
I don't think there is any justifiable way to say Dirk was such a better number one option than David nor do the stats or accolades back that up either.
They have the same amount of all star appearances.
They each have one NBA MVP
Dirk has a finals MVP
David has a DPOY (Which IMO is much more weighted than a finals MVP)
David has a ROY
David has 10 All NBA Teams (4 1st, 2 2nd, 4 3rds)
Dirk has 11 All NBA Teams (4 1st, 5 2nd, 2 3rds)
David has 8 All NBA Defensive Teams
Dirk has 0
Career MVP Award Shares: David (12th) Dirk (21st)
PER Career: David (26.2 ranked 4th all time) Dirk (23.7 ranked 15th all time)
Offensive Rating Career: David (116 ranked 29th) Dirk (117 ranked 18th)
Defensive Rating Career: David (95.6 ranked 6th) Dirk (46.5 ranked 54th)
Win Shares Career: David (178 ranked 11th) Dirk (161 ranked 19th)
Basically all number and advance metrics play out like we think they would with Dirk being the better offensive player, but David still being in the elite category. However, David is also in the elite category on the defensive end.
Leetonidas
09-28-2011, 06:15 PM
I also personally think David was a better player than Nowitzki overall but he wasn't a better leader. I think his legacy is often synced with his performance against Hakeem in the 1995 playoffs, which is unfair. David got destroyed, but so did everyone else by Hakeem, and at least David put up some respectable numbers. Besides had Rodman gave a shit things may have turned out differenty (inb4 bible chasing) but in the end it got us Duncan so I can't complain.
But think about it, David has been a scoring champ and a defensive player of the year, something Dirk will probably never sniff (DPOY definitely). He was an athletic monster and in his prime he could swipe the ball from you as he blocks you and run it down court faster than everyone else and slam it on them. Most people would say Dirk is a better offensive player but even that is debatable because Robinson was an elite offensive player in his time as well while being a defensive anchor capable of 4+ blocks, not to mention the dude netted a quad-double. :wow
I will say that he did shit the bed in the playoffs, that is undeniable. So did Dirk, but he recovered and got the prize. David never had that chance because of his foot breaking then his back problems and Timmy coming onto the scene because he was no longer the main guy in 97. But then again it's not like he was just standing out there watching during the 1999 playoffs, his play was just as imperative as Duncan's and I think Robinson allowing Duncan to take over the driver's seat says a lot about his character because a guy like Kobe wouldn't do that. Although one could argue that deference makes him soft, but either way he did what needed to be done for the good of the team.
Dirk's a beast and one of my favorite offensive players to watch but if I'm starting a franchise and I can build around a prime version of either, I take Robinson every time.
DPG21920
09-28-2011, 06:17 PM
Now, all of those numbers don't tell the entire story and there are so many factors to consider (both subjective an objective), but when it comes to Dirk vs David, I don't feel that you can place Dirk ahead, or at least I haven't heard anything to sway me.
:tu
Dirk's offense isnt even clearly superior either tbh, I would give him a slight edge simply because of how unstoppable his fadeaway is, but Dave is really close to him. Dave has a scoring title under his belt and was a 25 ppg player before his injury/TD.
DPG21920
09-28-2011, 06:22 PM
I also think (here is the really subjective part) that if you place prime Dirk on the teams that David had before Tim, they are worse. I think if you place prime David on the teams Dirk had, they are just as good if not better.
TD 21
09-28-2011, 06:36 PM
Right, the above poster was using this skewed line of analysis to intentionally show how dumb some other posters are. No one is questioning Timmy in this thread, relax. #1 PF of all time, no doubt.
Hrm that list seems to be missing a certain player?
False.
True.
That and he was also doing what I said he was at the same time.
No, it's complete. Nowitzki had a consistent perimeter scorer (he's just not an All-Star) and a bloated payroll, which led to nearly incomparable depth.
True. I don't see a credible argument for placing a one dimensional player ahead of some of the most complete players of all time and others who at least were well above average at more than one thing.
People love overrating what just happened. Bryant tacked on two more championships, with a men against boys front line and suddenly he went from a non top 10 player all time to being in the discussion with Jordan? As if he suddenly became a better player. The same thing is happening now with Nowitzki. I'm not trying to downplay winning a championship, especially as an undisputed number one option, but he didn't suddenly become a better player.
DPG, you forgot about shot blocking and rebounding. The only thing Nowitzki has on Robinson or any elite big, is range shooting.
DPG21920
09-28-2011, 06:52 PM
That and he was also doing what I said he was at the same time.
No, it's complete. Nowitzki had a consistent perimeter scorer (he's just not an All-Star) and a bloated payroll, which led to nearly incomparable depth.
True. I don't see a credible argument for placing a one dimensional player ahead of some of the most complete players of all time and others who at least were well above average at more than one thing.
People love overrating what just happened. Bryant tacked on two more championships, with a men against boys front line and suddenly he went from a non top 10 player all time to being in the discussion with Jordan? As if he suddenly became a better player. The same thing is happening now with Nowitzki. I'm not trying to downplay winning a championship, especially as an undisputed number one option, but he didn't suddenly become a better player.
DPG, you forgot about shot blocking and rebounding. The only thing Nowitzki has on Robinson or any elite big, is range shooting.
I didn't really forget it, I just lump blocking shots into defense (although that by itself doesn't make you a good defender (hi camby)). I was just making a holistic point.
However, Dirk, IMO has more on bigs than just that. You say it's "just range shooting" but that is an over simplification. He does many things well and his offense is so good (I don't care if it consists of one thing or a million, I care about scoring when everyone is geared to stop you) along with numerous huge playoff games that he is better than many bigs. David just isn't one of them.
TD 21
09-28-2011, 07:10 PM
I didn't really forget it, I just lump blocking shots into defense (although that by itself doesn't make you a good defender (hi camby)). I was just making a holistic point.
However, Dirk, IMO has more on bigs than just that. You say it's "just range shooting" but that is an over simplification. He does many things well and his offense is so good (I don't care if it consists of one thing or a million, I care about scoring when everyone is geared to stop you) along with numerous huge playoff games that he is better than many bigs. David just isn't one of them.
I figured you did that, but if you agree that blocking shots does not make a player a good defender, then they shouldn't be lumped into the same category. That also doesn't explain you not mentioning rebounding.
Not on elite, all time bigs. And no, he doesn't do many things well. His strength offensively is easier to slow down than a dominant low post player, which is why Nowitzki's teams have generally underperformed in the playoffs. You're exactly right, he is better than many bigs. Just not elite, all time bigs.
Comparing Nowitzki to Robinson is ridiculous. A better comparison would be Ewing.
nowhereman523
09-28-2011, 08:10 PM
No, it's complete. Nowitzki had a consistent perimeter scorer (he's just not an All-Star) and a bloated payroll, which led to nearly incomparable depth.
You're acting as if Timmy had zero help. Parker scored over 20 7 different times in the 2002-03 playoffs. Jackson had a 7 game stretch where he averaged 17 points. Bowen had a game where he went 7-8 from 3. In most of the finals games, there were at least 4 guys in double figures. In 9 of the 24 playoff games that year, he didn't lead the team in scoring. By way of comparison, Dirk lead the Mavs in scoring in 18 out of 21 games. In reality, Olajuwon's 93-94 run blows both Timmy and Dirk out of the water. Olajuwon had Jordan's retirement, and Timmy had C-Webb and Dirk both getting injured.
True. I don't see a credible argument for placing a one dimensional player ahead of some of the most complete players of all time and others who at least were well above average at more than one thing.
48 points on 15 shots is more than a "credible" argument.
People love overrating what just happened. Bryant tacked on two more championships, with a men against boys front line and suddenly he went from a non top 10 player all time to being in the discussion with Jordan? As if he suddenly became a better player. The same thing is happening now with Nowitzki. I'm not trying to downplay winning a championship, especially as an undisputed number one option, but he didn't suddenly become a better player.
People love overrating the past. And you're right - he didn't become a better player. He just demanded that you not dismiss his myriad past accomplishments. Before a ring it's "can't win the big one" and after the ring it's "championships don't mean shit"?
DPG, you forgot about shot blocking and rebounding. The only thing Nowitzki has on Robinson or any elite big, is range shooting.
It's professional basketball, it's not NBA2K12. If you count individual facets, Russell Westbrook would be ranked higher than him. It's about impact. A team with Dirk on his best day destroys a team with Robinson or a team with KG on his best day, all things equal.
You're acting as if Timmy had zero help. Parker scored over 20 7 different times in the 2002-03 playoffs. Jackson had a 7 game stretch where he averaged 17 points. Bowen had a game where he went 7-8 from 3. In most of the finals games, there were at least 4 guys in double figures. In 9 of the 24 playoff games that year, he didn't lead the team in scoring. By way of comparison, Dirk lead the Mavs in scoring in 18 out of 21 games. In reality, Olajuwon's 93-94 run blows both Timmy and Dirk out of the water. Olajuwon had Jordan's retirement, and Timmy had C-Webb and Dirk both getting injured.
Thats nice that you took the time to look up all those stats to bolster TDs cast. But bottom line is his #2 Parker averaged 14 ppg during that run on 41% shooting. Terry on the other hand averaged 18 ppg on 48% shooting. He had his solid moments just like Jackson, but they were very very inconsistent. Parker was benched in favor of Speedy Claxton several times during that run for entire 4th quarters thats how hot and cold he was.
Youre conveniently only factoring one side of the ball though. TD's and Dream's runs are in a league of their own because they not only carried the teams offensively (even moreso than Dirk) but they also anchored their team's defense.
As far as Dirk being out in 03', gtfo with that shit. Those were still Nellie's no defense Mavericks, they werent beating the Spurs with or without Dirk. Im sure as a Mavs fan you clearly remember that they were well on their way to being down 3-1 when Dirk went down, but of course you conveniently left that out. If anything that made that series more interesting as it let NVE go wild.
A team with Dirk on his best day destroys a team with Robinson or a team with KG on his best day, all things equal.
This is a fact how? This is your opinion and an opinion most people wouldnt share. You have nothing to back this up because things were never equal. Both KG (in Minny) and DRob (pre-TD) were in small-market teams with smaller payrolls and teammates of lesser quality.
TD 21
09-28-2011, 08:57 PM
You're acting as if Timmy had zero help. Parker scored over 20 7 different times in the 2002-03 playoffs. Jackson had a 7 game stretch where he averaged 17 points. Bowen had a game where he went 7-8 from 3. In most of the finals games, there were at least 4 guys in double figures. In 9 of the 24 playoff games that year, he didn't lead the team in scoring. By way of comparison, Dirk lead the Mavs in scoring in 18 out of 21 games. In reality, Olajuwon's 93-94 run blows both Timmy and Dirk out of the water. Olajuwon had Jordan's retirement, and Timmy had C-Webb and Dirk both getting injured.
No, I'm not. What I'm saying is, he didn't have a consistent second scorer. As FkLA pointed out, '11 Terry is a more consistent scorer than '03 Parker was. Jackson, Bowen, etc., only had offensive explosions because of Duncan getting them wide open threes. There's two reasons why Duncan didn't lead the team in scoring every playoff game:1) He had two and sometimes more defenders on him frequently, 2) He's unselfish and didn't force shots when doubled.
Duncan's '03 was actually clearly superior to Olajuwon's '94. Duncan's 5.94 win shares is the top ranked single season playoff one, while Olajuwon's 4.28 is 17th. He also had a higher PER, at 28.42 to 27.69. Olajuwon scored more because he shot significantly more, not because he was a vastly superior scorer.
48 points on 15 shots is more than a "credible" argument.So one game makes him better than all those players?
People love overrating the past. And you're right - he didn't become a better player. He just demanded that you not dismiss his myriad past accomplishments. Before a ring it's "can't win the big one" and after the ring it's "championships don't mean shit"?
Only extremely casual observers dismissed Nowitzki's past accomplishments. The truth is, by many in the "basketball world", he's been overrated for years. Who said "championships don't mean shit"? I'm just saying, it doesn't change the player he is. When Duncan went up 4-3 on Bryant, I never said "he's better because he has more rings", I said he's better because he's a superior player.
It's professional basketball, it's not NBA2K12. If you count individual facets, Russell Westbrook would be ranked higher than him. It's about impact. A team with Dirk on his best day destroys a team with Robinson or a team with KG on his best day, all things equal.So individual facets don't matter or matter minimally? What matters most then, scoring? It is about impact, but a player who can impact the game in more ways and come close enough in the one way another does, is clearly superior.
The Nowitzki-Garnett comparison is the most perplexing, because they played the same position, in the same era and when Garnett was in his prime, no one (outside of Mavs homers) ever put them in the same class. But now, after the fact, Nowitzki is suddenly superior? It makes no sense.
joshdaboss
09-28-2011, 09:32 PM
It's professional basketball, it's not NBA2K12. If you count individual facets, Russell Westbrook would be ranked higher than him. It's about impact. A team with Dirk on his best day destroys a team with Robinson or a team with KG on his best day, all things equal.
Epic fuckin fail. rofl KG wipes his ass with Nowitzki. Reason being, he plays on both ends. Let's not even get into Robinson, because he obviously defecates all over both something terrible.
stretch
09-28-2011, 10:26 PM
Playing it off as trolling, even though you actually believe Dirk is a better player than Robinson was :lol
i do believe it. i win because i got you to spout off all that ridiculous bullshit i didnt bother to read and never will.
stretch
09-28-2011, 10:31 PM
and not a single explanation given here by spurfans are acceptable, because this is the same fanbase that continues to argue to death that Timmy > Kobe, or even D-Rob > Kobe. even if you don't believe in that yourself, you automatically do because you are spurfan.
:lmao spurs
4 rings faggot!
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/--viTGwxqxtI/TfY_F6OniqI/AAAAAAAABHM/9vRgBq0fCkc/s1600/DirkTrophy.jpg
suck it bitches
Leetonidas
09-28-2011, 10:44 PM
I don't think Dave is better than Kobe... :depressed
i win because u responded to my long ass post and i didnt respond to urs :lobt2:
im a mavs fan so i believe dirk>robinson& kg even if the facts suggest otherwise. homer spurs fan does it so why cant i?
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/--viTGwxqxtI/TfY_F6OniqI/AAAAAAAABHM/9vRgBq0fCkc/s1600/DirkTrophy.jpg
suck it bitches
stretch
09-28-2011, 11:25 PM
according to spurfan logic, leading your team to rings is the only thing that counts
dirk 1
rob 0
there is the self-proclaimed only meaningful stat, suggesting that dirk > rob
lulz
that trolling attempt might make some kind of sense if you didnt actually believe dirk>robinson
stretch
09-28-2011, 11:35 PM
facts are facts, bub
dirkie > robbie
accept it
nowhereman523
09-29-2011, 12:18 AM
No, I'm not. What I'm saying is, he didn't have a consistent second scorer. As FkLA pointed out, '11 Terry is a more consistent scorer than '03 Parker was. Jackson, Bowen, etc., only had offensive explosions because of Duncan getting them wide open threes. There's two reasons why Duncan didn't lead the team in scoring every playoff game:1) He had two and sometimes more defenders on him frequently, 2) He's unselfish and didn't force shots when doubled.
Duncan's '03 was actually clearly superior to Olajuwon's '94. Duncan's 5.94 win shares is the top ranked single season playoff one, while Olajuwon's 4.28 is 17th. He also had a higher PER, at 28.42 to 27.69. Olajuwon scored more because he shot significantly more, not because he was a vastly superior scorer.
So wait. Now Dirk's selfish, doesn't pass out of double-teams, doesn't create looks for Terry, and forces shots? Watch an one of the Lakers games and tell me he didn't enable the entire offense. And yeah, Terry had a good consistent playoffs. But the Spurs consistently had SOMEONE step up - often it was Jackson. Don't tell me that Timmy didn't consistently have help. Lots of guys stepped up huge. Hell, Steve Kerr ended our season. I think this Mavs team was deeper than that Spurs team, but both had one major catalyst, no other all-star players, and got timely contributions from different sources and rode their superstar's backs. You're underrating huge, timely performances by Robinson (game 6 of the finals), Jackson, Parker, even Malik. They gave as much as a unit as Marion, Terry, Barea, Kidd, Chandler were able to give.
Major lesson from the Sloan/MIT conference: Kevin Pritchard and Mark Cuban telling the world that no professional team even considers win shares because it is one of the least useful and accurate stats in basketball. All I know is that team had Vernon Maxwell taking huge shots and shooting under 40%. I'm not a big PER guy.
So one game makes him better than all those players?
Not by itself. But when a guy is capable of playing the most efficient high scoring playoff game ever, he's certainly in the conversation. Yeah, not a dominant defender. He's just one of the most unguardable players in the history of the game that's going to end with SEVERAL all-nba first team appearances, an MVP, and a finals MVP, and you claim there's no "credible" argument that he's even in the same category as... Barkley? Wade, who "impacted" his team to a 15 win season? Garnett, who so "impacted" a game in "so many ways" as to completely miss the playoffs in his prime? Results matter.
So individual facets don't matter or matter minimally? What matters most then, scoring? It is about impact, but a player who can impact the game in more ways and come close enough in the one way another does, is clearly superior.
That's like saying LeBron sucks because he doesn't have a post game. Or that Shaq sucked because he couldn't hit free throws. The difference between a top 10 offensive player all-time and a top-20 offensive player all-time is all the difference in the world.
The Nowitzki-Garnett comparison is the most perplexing, because they played the same position, in the same era and when Garnett was in his prime, no one (outside of Mavs homers) ever put them in the same class. But now, after the fact, Nowitzki is suddenly superior? It makes no sense
That's why Dirk was making all-nba teams while KG was being left off them in his prime? KG had exactly one playoff run where he made it out of the first round before teaming up with 2 future HOFs in or near their primes. What's that? Yes. KG was left off an all-nba team in his prime. So I'm not sure where you're getting this "no one ever put them in the same class" thing - unless what you mean to say is that Dirk was recognized as clearly superior by 2005?
joshdaboss
09-29-2011, 12:21 AM
facts are facts, bub
dirkie > robbie
accept it
Can Prime Dirk guard Prime Robinson? Of course not. He would put his nuts in his face after throwing down on him. Can Prime Robinson guard Prime Dirk? Of course he can. He's longer than Dirk, faster, quicker, more athletic... what have you.
joshdaboss
09-29-2011, 12:23 AM
I don't think Dave is better than Kobe... :depressed
I don't see why not. You're telling me you'd really take Kobe if you were drafting them, both in their rookie seasons? Remember, now... Kobe won't have Shaq on his team, or a loaded roster. You're picking the player that will have the biggest impact.
facts are facts, bub
dirkie > robbie
accept it
where do you rank diggler on an all-time list ?
badfish22
09-29-2011, 01:04 AM
:lol this offseason hasn't disappointed.
Monostradamus
09-29-2011, 04:52 AM
Dirk, rollin into the club, no trouble at the door, he and his entourage walking in like bosses, plopping down in the VIP section and chillin.
Robinson, getting stopped at the door by the bouncer, insisting "I'm on the list! My friend Tim Duncan got me on there!"
You see, that's where your interpretation is flawed.
Robinson was returning to pick up his jacket. He's been going to the VIP section since 1999.
Jodelo
09-29-2011, 09:13 AM
Can Prime Dirk guard Prime Robinson? Of course not. He would put his nuts in his face after throwing down on him. Can Prime Robinson guard Prime Dirk? Of course he can. He's longer than Dirk, faster, quicker, more athletic... what have you.
:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao
stretch
09-29-2011, 09:51 AM
Can Prime Dirk guard Prime Robinson? Of course not. He would put his nuts in his face after throwing down on him. Can Prime Robinson guard Prime Dirk? Of course he can. He's longer than Dirk, faster, quicker, more athletic... what have you.
:lmao
thinking d-rob could hold dirk
duncan, kg, and a whole least of great defenders in the NBA hasnt been able to hold dirk for shit. what makes you think d-rob suddenly can?
oh wait, beacuse bruce bowen blocked dirk on that shot that one time :rolleyes
stretch
09-29-2011, 09:51 AM
where do you rank diggler on an all-time list ?
#2
stretch
09-29-2011, 09:52 AM
i don't see why not. You're telling me you'd really take kobe if you were drafting them, both in their rookie seasons? Remember, now... Kobe won't have shaq on his team, or a loaded roster. You're picking the player that will have the biggest impact.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahaha
TD 21
09-29-2011, 04:17 PM
So wait. Now Dirk's selfish, doesn't pass out of double-teams, doesn't create looks for Terry, and forces shots? Watch an one of the Lakers games and tell me he didn't enable the entire offense. And yeah, Terry had a good consistent playoffs. But the Spurs consistently had SOMEONE step up - often it was Jackson. Don't tell me that Timmy didn't consistently have help. Lots of guys stepped up huge. Hell, Steve Kerr ended our season. I think this Mavs team was deeper than that Spurs team, but both had one major catalyst, no other all-star players, and got timely contributions from different sources and rode their superstar's backs. You're underrating huge, timely performances by Robinson (game 6 of the finals), Jackson, Parker, even Malik. They gave as much as a unit as Marion, Terry, Barea, Kidd, Chandler were able to give.
Major lesson from the Sloan/MIT conference: Kevin Pritchard and Mark Cuban telling the world that no professional team even considers win shares because it is one of the least useful and accurate stats in basketball. All I know is that team had Vernon Maxwell taking huge shots and shooting under 40%. I'm not a big PER guy.
You obviously lack basic reading comprehension. All I'm saying is, don't just throw out a random number and ignore the reasons behind it. Duncan didn't have consistent help and the majority of the help he did have, was mostly his doing.
Downplay the stats all you want, the reality is Olajuwon's '94 (and '95), as great as they were, have become overrated. Duncan scored just as efficiently, rebounded significantly better, blocked roughly the same percent of shots and had a far superior defensive rating, in addition to a higher PER and win shares.
Not by itself. But when a guy is capable of playing the most efficient high scoring playoff game ever, he's certainly in the conversation. Yeah, not a dominant defender. He's just one of the most unguardable players in the history of the game that's going to end with SEVERAL all-nba first team appearances, an MVP, and a finals MVP, and you claim there's no "credible" argument that he's even in the same category as... Barkley? Wade, who "impacted" his team to a 15 win season? Garnett, who so "impacted" a game in "so many ways" as to completely miss the playoffs in his prime? Results matter.Most efficient at what, though? Shooting/scoring. He's sub par in almost every other area, which takes him out of the conversation with the aforementioned players. Barkley was elite at two things, Wade, for his position, is elite at everything outside of range shooting and Garnett was elite at most things and close, for his position, at everything else. Everyone talks about the lack of a second star post Nash and Finley, but Nowitzki's also had almost unparalleled depth surrounding him, thanks to an annual top 3 payroll.
That's like saying LeBron sucks because he doesn't have a post game. Or that Shaq sucked because he couldn't hit free throws. The difference between a top 10 offensive player all-time and a top-20 offensive player all-time is all the difference in the world.
The difference is, O'Neal was and James is an all around force. See, I don't dock Nowitzki points because he's a sub par rebounder, shot blocker, defender, etc. I dock him points because he's sub par at ALL OF THOSE THINGS.
That's why Dirk was making all-nba teams while KG was being left off them in his prime? KG had exactly one playoff run where he made it out of the first round before teaming up with 2 future HOFs in or near their primes. What's that? Yes. KG was left off an all-nba team in his prime. So I'm not sure where you're getting this "no one ever put them in the same class" thing - unless what you mean to say is that Dirk was recognized as clearly superior by 2005?The awards are largely based on team success, hype, who's turn it is to get something, etc. If they weren't, the three best players of their generation, Duncan, O'Neal and Bryant, wouldn't have a combined 4 MVP's. Bryant made All-NBA third team in his prime once. Does that make him or Garnett lesser players? Did anyone think Nowitzki was on their level in the mid aughts? Don't pretend, after the fact, that that was the case. If you followed the league then, you'd know Duncan, O'Neal, Bryant, Garnett and McGrady, were considered the clear cut five best players in the league for a good stretch of years.
stretch
09-29-2011, 04:23 PM
lol gnsf
Jodelo
09-29-2011, 04:24 PM
TD21 so mad. :lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao
Veterinarian.
09-29-2011, 04:25 PM
gnsf :lol
Veterinarian.
09-29-2011, 04:25 PM
Lol him shitting on dirk before the 2011 playoffs and then getting owned :lmao
Why you ragin Brah?
ambchang
09-29-2011, 04:33 PM
Sombody has to tell MavKrew the difference between :lmao and :yield
stretch
09-29-2011, 04:42 PM
anyways, I'll actually give my legit 2 cents, then im done, because its tiring arguing with gnsf
The reason I take Dirk before guys like Robinson, Malone, Barkley, KG, is because he did the most important thing that a #1 option on your team needs to be able to do... find ways to take over games and lead your team to a championship. None of the other aforementioned guys did that. Now were they capable of doing so? Possibly so. Did they have chances to do so? Most definitely. But not a single one of them succeeded. And they don’t have any excuses as to why they weren’t unable to either. They all had MANY chances to do so. They all played alongside championship caliber talent (KG probably having the least benefit in that department, with Malone and Barkley having the most benefit there).
Did those players have less holes in their game than Dirk? Most certainly. Dirk definitely has and had his share of weaknesses. But his biggest strength (undeniable offense), is bigger than any of the biggest strengths of the other guys. And when you look at all legit #1s that led their team to championships, the one thing they ALL had in common was an ability to take over on the offensive end of the court. Some also were strong defenders, strong passers, or strong defenders, but many of them also had weakness, and more than just one. But they could all take over a game offensively, and take pressure off their teammates. Dirk has proven he is considerably superior in that aspect to all the aforementioned.
If I’m building a team around one of these guys, I pick Dirk. Sure, run around crying “but he doesn’t play defense you stupid faggot!!!!!! :cry :cry :cry”. I don’t give a shit, because the deficiencies in his game, can easily be picked up for by other role players. But you can’t go around adding role players thinking that they will be able to consistently take over games offensively against elite teams in late-game playoff situations. That is something that cannot be covered up. As shown this year, adding Chandler made a HUGE difference in the success of the Mavs, and allowed Dirk to concentrate even more on what he is best at… being an unstoppable offensive force. But you cant expect to build around any of those guys, and add Michael Finley, thinking Finley can cover up for Malone’s inability to put a team on his back offensively. It simply doesn’t work like that.
If I had to choose between one unstoppable scorer, and 4 good defenders who can hit open shots but not a ton else offensively (similar to how the Mavs were built), or one incredible all around force with 4 good offensive players who are average to below average defenders (Dwight Howard and his Orlando teams), I’ll take the first choice, all day long. Defense takes much more of a team effort, while offense is capable of being handled heavily by a single player. And in crunch time, you need an elite individual scorer if you want a chance against elite defenses.
for a moment i thought he had trolled me, but this nigga truly believes dirk is a better basketball player than robinson ever was :lmao
acting like kg or robinsons 25 ppg werent elite offensively because they didnt have a move in their repertoire as unstoppable as dirk's fadeaway in late game situations :lol
throwing out the supporting cast argument when just last yr "dirks shitty supporting cast with scrub terry as #2 :cry" was the reason dirk hadnt rang
calling kg's teammates in minny or robinson's teammates in SA before TD championship level talent :lol
comparing those payrolls to the Mavs bloated payroll :lol
the irony in how much shit you give spurfan for being homers is alarming, considering how far you have dirk's balls down your throat :lol
stretch
09-29-2011, 05:28 PM
acting like kg or robinsons 25 ppg werent elite offensively because they didnt have a move in their repertoire as unstoppable as dirk's fadeaway in late game situations :lol
throwing out the supporting cast argument when just last yr "dirks shitty supporting cast with scrub terry as #2 :cry" was the reason dirk hadnt rang
calling kg's teammates in minny or robinson's teammates in SA before TD championship level talent :lol
comparing those payrolls to the Mavs bloated payroll :lol
the irony in how much shit you give spurfan for being homers is alarming, considering how far you have dirk's balls down your throat :lol
one thing shuts all of that bullshit the fuck up
dirk rang :lol
that whole post and ur entire argument pretty much boils down to dirk found a way to ring and rob/kg didnt, 1 ring faggot!
the very same argument you mock 'gnsf' for, wat a faggot :lmao
dirk4mvp
09-29-2011, 05:33 PM
spurfans can't stand hearing about how much of a choker Robinson was.
DPG21920
09-29-2011, 06:10 PM
David was better than Dirk.
Monostradamus
09-29-2011, 06:26 PM
David was better than Dirk.
The two men sat in silence, driving in the cold night. There interior of the car grew light, then dark, then light again with each passing street light. Light rock played on the radio, but the two men said nothing.
They pulled up to the valet stand, and got out of the car. The valet driver took the keys, and drove off the parking garage. The two men stood in silence, looking at each other in the cold night.
"Well, this is it."
"Yes it is."
They walked over the entrance of a brightly lit building. Lights were flashing inside. There was dancing, drinking, merrymaking going on inside. Yet the atmosphere outside was as cold and tense as ever. The two men walked past a large line of people, over to a heavyset Mexican man standing next to a rope. The two men looked up at the glowing neon sign above the door. They were here. The most exclusive club in the world. Club "Best Player On A Title Team".
The first man approached nervously, and spoke.
"Dirk Nowitkzi, Dallas Mavericks."
The fat Mexican checked the large list in his hand, perusing every name to make sure he didn't get this wrong. Then he spoke.
"There you are, #2011. You're on the list, enjoy your night".
Dirk breathed a sigh of relief and walked into the club. A drunk slut touched his dick as he stepped past the threshold. The second man now approached, praying for the same result.
"David Robinson, San Antonio Spurs"
The gluttonous Latino man looked up and down the list. He searched for the name, and finally gave a response.
"..........nope, not on the list"
"What????? I've got to be on there! Check it again! CHECK IT AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!"
The Mexican checked the list one more time, carefully examining each name.
"Yeah, you're not on here, sorry."
The man hung his head and slowly walked away into the night. The Mexican lardass, in a rare display of compassion for those not on the list, tried what he could to lessen the hurt in the man's heart.
"Hey!" the Mexican said. "You aren't on this list, but check out the club down the road! It's called 'Second Bananas'. I'm sure you're on that list. In fact, I saw your friends Manu and Tony walkin in there without a problem!"
Monostradamus
09-29-2011, 06:33 PM
that whole post and ur entire argument pretty much boils down to dirk found a way to ring and rob/kg didnt, 1 ring faggot!
the very same argument you mock 'gnsf' for, wat a faggot :lmao
The Ring's The Thing!
In a world of hype, Dirk just wins.
Believe.
I wouldn't trade Stevenson for Carmelo. There's a thing called chemistry.
nowhereman523
09-29-2011, 06:59 PM
You obviously lack basic reading comprehension. All I'm saying is, don't just throw out a random number and ignore the reasons behind it. Duncan didn't have consistent help and the majority of the help he did have, was mostly his doing.
I understand the context. That whole team was Duncan. But you're downplaying Dirk's effect on the team and especially downplaying his effect on Terry. Both guys had other people step up, and the reason those guys were able to step up was because of what their stars were doing on the floor. Timmy is well above Dirk, and I think about the same as Hakeem historically, but all 3 guys single-handedly won a championship. The Mavs went 2-7 without him against mostly weak competition, and 55-18 + ring with him. He hit multiple huge shots down the stretch in almost every single playoff victory, with the exception of a couple of blowouts.
Downplay the stats all you want, the reality is Olajuwon's '94 (and '95), as great as they were, have become overrated. Duncan scored just as efficiently, rebounded significantly better, blocked roughly the same percent of shots and had a far superior defensive rating, in addition to a higher PER and win shares.
Win shares aren't a real stat, PER has some obvious holes in it. Mad Max and Horry straight up did not give Hakeem what Jax/Robinson/Parker/Bowen gave Timmy.
Most efficient at what, though? Shooting/scoring. He's sub par in almost every other area, which takes him out of the conversation with the aforementioned players. Barkley was elite at two things, Wade, for his position, is elite at everything outside of range shooting and Garnett was elite at most things and close, for his position, at everything else. Everyone talks about the lack of a second star post Nash and Finley, but Nowitzki's also had almost unparalleled depth surrounding him, thanks to an annual top 3 payroll.
I would rather have a player that can drop 48 on 15 shots, and go 12/14 in a playoff win, than a player who misses an extra 5 shots a game and turns the ball over an extra time every 2 games, but gets 2 more blocks or 4 more offensive rebounds. Basketball is about playing roles. Dirk plays his role at an all-time elite level.
An annual top 3 payroll that significantly overpaid guys like Damp, Lafrentz, Diop, Matt Carroll, Michael Finley, etc. etc. etc. No one on his team has been selected to an all-star game in 8 seasons. Kidd and Howard made it on as replacements only because of team success. The mavs overpaid for some guys, and routinely took bad contracts back in trades. For most of the last few years, they were paying $30/million a year for Finley, Dampier, and Diop/Carroll.
The difference is, O'Neal was and James is an all around force. See, I don't dock Nowitzki points because he's a sub par rebounder, shot blocker, defender, etc. I dock him points because he's sub par at ALL OF THOSE THINGS.
So you probably think Chris Webber was better than Shaq because he was a better passer and free throw shooter? This is basketball. Not a chipotle burrito.
The awards are largely based on team success, hype, who's turn it is to get something, etc. If they weren't, the three best players of their generation, Duncan, O'Neal and Bryant, wouldn't have a combined 4 MVP's. Bryant made All-NBA third team in his prime once. Does that make him or Garnett lesser players? Did anyone think Nowitzki was on their level in the mid aughts? Don't pretend, after the fact, that that was the case. If you followed the league then, you'd know Duncan, O'Neal, Bryant, Garnett and McGrady, were considered the clear cut five best players in the league for a good stretch of years.
:lol at impacting the game so much your team is one of the worst in the NBA. Dirk's been better than 3 of the guys on that list since 2004-05. Just because you bought the hype doesn't mean the hype was right. And if you can't make an all-nba team in your prime, you have NO GROUNDS to be considered the 2nd best PF of your generation while another guy was going 37/15 on the road in an elimination game against the defending champions.
And if you're just gonna be spouting off about how Dirk was overrated for most of his career, and then talk about how these guys were "considered the clear cut five best players" then you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. You wanna know a good link that shows you where the same people you say "considered" those 5 guys the best players in the league NOW consider Dirk? There's a really good link at the start of this post that shows you a balanced system that weighs what many credible pundits now say.
You guys are really stretching here. The guy has it all. All the accolades, incredible numbers, multiple awards, playoff skins, and single-handedly carrying his team to a championship. Just deal with it. It's okay. Nothing against guys like Garnett, Robinson, Barkley, etc. Great players. But the verdict is in.
TD 21
09-29-2011, 07:37 PM
I understand the context. That whole team was Duncan. But you're downplaying Dirk's effect on the team and especially downplaying his effect on Terry. Both guys had other people step up, and the reason those guys were able to step up was because of what their stars were doing on the floor. Timmy is well above Dirk, and I think about the same as Hakeem historically, but all 3 guys single-handedly won a championship. The Mavs went 2-7 without him against mostly weak competition, and 55-18 + ring with him. He hit multiple huge shots down the stretch in almost every single playoff victory, with the exception of a couple of blowouts.
No, I'm properly assessing Nowitzki's effect on the team. He essentially played the role of Olajuwon and Duncan on offense, but didn't have all of the other responsibilities they had. Statistically speaking, it wasn't even his best playoff performance and it definitely wasn't on the short list of the greatest of all time, such as Olajuwon's and Duncan's.
Win shares aren't a real stat, PER has some obvious holes in it. Mad Max and Horry straight up did not give Hakeem what Jax/Robinson/Parker/Bowen gave Timmy. The bottom line is, there's nothing statistically that indicates either of Olajuwon's runs were better than Duncan's. And they're easy to compare, because they're such similar players.
I would rather have a player that can drop 48 on 15 shots, and go 12/14 in a playoff win, than a player who misses an extra 5 shots a game and turns the ball over an extra time every 2 games, but gets 2 more blocks or 4 more offensive rebounds. Basketball is about playing roles. Dirk plays his role at an all-time elite level.
An annual top 3 payroll that significantly overpaid guys like Damp, Lafrentz, Diop, Matt Carroll, Michael Finley, etc. etc. etc. No one on his team has been selected to an all-star game in 8 seasons. Kidd and Howard made it on as replacements only because of team success. The mavs overpaid for some guys, and routinely took bad contracts back in trades. For most of the last few years, they were paying $30/million a year for Finley, Dampier, and Diop/Carroll. The others played their role at an all-time elite level, their role just entailed more than one thing and entailed far more arduous things. They didn't get to have someone else do the dirty work for them.
Overpaid or not, they've had elite depth for years, so don't pull the "poor Dirk" act.
So you probably think Chris Webber was better than Shaq because he was a better passer and free throw shooter? This is basketball. Not a chipotle burrito.I didn't say you can't be very good if you're only elite at one thing. But when you're talking top 20 all-time guys, being elite at one thing and sub par at almost everything else isn't good enough to be mentioned in the same breathe as them.
:lol at impacting the game so much your team is one of the worst in the NBA. Dirk's been better than 3 of the guys on that list since 2004-05. Just because you bought the hype doesn't mean the hype was right. And if you can't make an all-nba team in your prime, you have NO GROUNDS to be considered the 2nd best PF of your generation while another guy was going 37/15 on the road in an elimination game against the defending champions.
And if you're just gonna be spouting off about how Dirk was overrated for most of his career, and then talk about how these guys were "considered the clear cut five best players" then you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. You wanna know a good link that shows you where the same people you say "considered" those 5 guys the best players in the league NOW consider Dirk? There's a really good link at the start of this post that shows you a balanced system that weighs what many credible pundits now say.
You guys are really stretching here. The guy has it all. All the accolades, incredible numbers, multiple awards, playoff skins, and single-handedly carrying his team to a championship. Just deal with it. It's okay. Nothing against guys like Garnett, Robinson, Barkley, etc. Great players. But the verdict is in.Look at the roster Wade had. Nowitzki has never played on a roster anywhere near that poor. Nowitzki wasn't better than any of them by 04-05. It's not about "buying hype", that was the consensus, as anyone who followed the league then would know. The awards are so credible that Duncan has zero defensive player of the year awards. 37/15 against two 6-7 wings.
From '06-on, Nowitzki has been overrated. Don't confuse overrated with not good, though. He was/is more than good, he was/is very good, he's just not as good as he's made out to be. We're not talking about where he ranks now, we're talking mid aughts.
I don't see how he "has it all", when he's above average at one thing. And the only "verdict" that's in, is you being a typical biased, overly defensive Mavs fan. Only a biased Mavs fan would think he's better than any of them.
stretch
09-29-2011, 09:05 PM
David was better than Dirk.
no argument here from me
but Dirk is greater than David.
stretch
09-29-2011, 09:07 PM
only spurfans, and "real talk" black dudes think dirk is overrated
pretty much everyone else appreciates what he does, accomplished, and his greatness
ElNono
09-29-2011, 09:12 PM
NBA 2K12 got it right, IMO...
After leading the Mavs to their first ship: Dirk = Manu
Proxy
09-29-2011, 09:33 PM
:lol here's a bit of objectivity for you...Duncan is 33 and 22 in points and rebounds respectively...what rates him so high...ohh wait is it titles won? :lol If so then we need to go with the old tried and true:
Kobe 5
Tired Old shitbag 4
and just like that Kool dismantles the blogger who has really nice pictures on his blog...:lmao
How does a tired old shitbag dick taste in your mouth?
nowhereman523
09-29-2011, 10:27 PM
No, I'm properly assessing Nowitzki's effect on the team. He essentially played the role of Olajuwon and Duncan on offense, but didn't have all of the other responsibilities they had. Statistically speaking, it wasn't even his best playoff performance and it definitely wasn't on the short list of the greatest of all time, such as Olajuwon's and Duncan's.
The bottom line is, there's nothing statistically that indicates either of Olajuwon's runs were better than Duncan's. And they're easy to compare, because they're such similar players.
The others played their role at an all-time elite level, their role just entailed more than one thing and entailed far more arduous things. They didn't get to have someone else do the dirty work for them.
Overpaid or not, they've had elite depth for years, so don't pull the "poor Dirk" act.
I didn't say you can't be very good if you're only elite at one thing. But when you're talking top 20 all-time guys, being elite at one thing and sub par at almost everything else isn't good enough to be mentioned in the same breathe as them.
Look at the roster Wade had. Nowitzki has never played on a roster anywhere near that poor. Nowitzki wasn't better than any of them by 04-05. It's not about "buying hype", that was the consensus, as anyone who followed the league then would know. The awards are so credible that Duncan has zero defensive player of the year awards. 37/15 against two 6-7 wings.
From '06-on, Nowitzki has been overrated. Don't confuse overrated with not good, though. He was/is more than good, he was/is very good, he's just not as good as he's made out to be. We're not talking about where he ranks now, we're talking mid aughts.
I don't see how he "has it all", when he's above average at one thing. And the only "verdict" that's in, is you being a typical biased, overly defensive Mavs fan. Only a biased Mavs fan would think he's better than any of them.
You've clearly predecided this issue and will stick to your guns against a mountain of evidence. Guys like KG get props because they played on shitty teams and didn't get anywhere, while Dirk plays on better teams and wins 50 games every year, gets to 2 finals, wins every accolade along the way, but then gets penalized because he doesn't... what, get enough offensive rebounds? Anchor a defense? If some of those guys were really so good at doing all those things, maybe they would have had some more success.
Dirk was better at the one thing he did best than any of those guys were at the one thing they did best. Give me excellence over balance.
It takes a really special type of person to look at a site run by a bulls fan, a site that takes a large number of objective lists, combines them in an effort to neutralize biases, and calculates that dirk is a greater player than any of the people you listed, and gives him the props, and responds with "only a biased mavs fan would think he's better than any of them."
Bravo.
Sportstudi
09-30-2011, 07:25 AM
Overpaid or not, they've had elite depth for years, so don't pull the "poor Dirk" act.
:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao
TD21 is completely butthurt.
TD 21
09-30-2011, 05:38 PM
You've clearly predecided this issue and will stick to your guns against a mountain of evidence. Guys like KG get props because they played on shitty teams and didn't get anywhere, while Dirk plays on better teams and wins 50 games every year, gets to 2 finals, wins every accolade along the way, but then gets penalized because he doesn't... what, get enough offensive rebounds? Anchor a defense? If some of those guys were really so good at doing all those things, maybe they would have had some more success.
Dirk was better at the one thing he did best than any of those guys were at the one thing they did best. Give me excellence over balance.
It takes a really special type of person to look at a site run by a bulls fan, a site that takes a large number of objective lists, combines them in an effort to neutralize biases, and calculates that dirk is a greater player than any of the people you listed, and gives him the props, and responds with "only a biased mavs fan would think he's better than any of them."
Bravo.
The word is predetermined and no, I didn't. I decided after watching all of the aforementioned players play over the years, unlike you Mavs fans. "Evidence"? The evidence points to him being the worst of the five players in question, which jives perfectly with the eye test.
They'd have had more success if they played with more talent. Three of them also had the misfortune of going against the consensus great player of all-time, in his prime. One player can only prop a team up so much, it's still a team sport. What more did you want Garnett to do? He did everything for them, unlike Nowitzki, who's always done one thing for the Mavs.
Balance is excellence because balance wins championships. How was he "better at the one thing he did best than the one thing they did best"? There's nothing to back that up.
stretch, what are you talking about? Spurs fans are almost as in love with Nowitzki as Mavs fans. And "real talk black dudes"? On a board filled with ignorant comments, that one might top them all. So let me get this straight: If you don't incessantly slobber over Nowitzki and act as if he's greater than players most wouldn't consider him greater than, then you're a racist? Then by that same logic, you're a racist for placing him above those players.
Monostradamus
09-30-2011, 05:43 PM
And "real talk black dudes"? On a board filled with ignorant comments, that one might top them all. So let me get this straight: If you don't incessantly slobber over Nowitzki and act as if he's greater than players most wouldn't consider him greater than, then you're a racist? Then by that same logic, you're a racist for placing him above those players.
He's talking about the way Dirk is viewed generally by black people, especially those in the city of Dallas.
nowhereman523
09-30-2011, 06:18 PM
The word is predetermined and no, I didn't. I decided after watching all of the aforementioned players play over the years, unlike you Mavs fans. "Evidence"? The evidence points to him being the worst of the five players in question, which jives perfectly with the eye test.
They'd have had more success if they played with more talent. Three of them also had the misfortune of going against the consensus great player of all-time, in his prime. One player can only prop a team up so much, it's still a team sport. What more did you want Garnett to do? He did everything for them, unlike Nowitzki, who's always done one thing for the Mavs.
Balance is excellence because balance wins championships. How was he "better at the one thing he did best than the one thing they did best"? There's nothing to back that up.
stretch, what are you talking about? Spurs fans are almost as in love with Nowitzki as Mavs fans. And "real talk black dudes"? On a board filled with ignorant comments, that one might top them all. So let me get this straight: If you don't incessantly slobber over Nowitzki and act as if he's greater than players most wouldn't consider him greater than, then you're a racist? Then by that same logic, you're a racist for placing him above those players.
It takes a really special type of person to look at a site run by a bulls fan, a site that takes a large number of objective lists, combines them in an effort to neutralize biases, and calculates that dirk is a greater player than any of the people you listed, and gives him the props, and responds with "only a biased mavs fan would think he's better than any of them."
nowhereman523
09-30-2011, 06:19 PM
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/predecided
dipshit
nowhereman523
09-30-2011, 06:21 PM
You're at least 0-2 on things that have an objectively right and wrong answer (1 - only mavs fans would rank him higher, 2 - 'the word is predetermined'). So don't mind me if I go ahead and not give you the benefit of the doubt on subjective matters.
stretch
10-01-2011, 10:05 PM
stretch, what are you talking about? Spurs fans are almost as in love with Nowitzki as Mavs fans. And "real talk black dudes"? On a board filled with ignorant comments, that one might top them all. So let me get this straight: If you don't incessantly slobber over Nowitzki and act as if he's greater than players most wouldn't consider him greater than, then you're a racist? Then by that same logic, you're a racist for placing him above those players.
i can pull up about 10000 comments on this site alone of spurs fans wishing stupid shit like injury and death on dirk. its not hard to find any.
and its not a matter of me being racist, as opposed to ignorant black people who never want to give a good white player credit, which is not an uncommon thing whatsoever. maybe if you pulled your head out of your ass, you would see how massively underrated Dirk generally has been in his career by ignorant black dudes who only look at dunking and athleticism as meaning anything in basketball.
joshdaboss
10-01-2011, 11:21 PM
:lmao
thinking d-rob could hold dirk
duncan, kg, and a whole least of great defenders in the NBA hasnt been able to hold dirk for shit. what makes you think d-rob suddenly can?
oh wait, beacuse bruce bowen blocked dirk on that shot that one time :rolleyes
I think Robinson can because he's the tallest/longest big time athlete the NBA has ever seen. One could argue Wilt I suppose, but he never had that sort of physique Robinson had. Also, prime Duncan can most certainly guard Dirk, same for KG. The difference is they're both old now and Dirk's jumper isn't going to leave him.
joshdaboss
10-01-2011, 11:28 PM
only spurfans, and "real talk" black dudes think dirk is overrated
pretty much everyone else appreciates what he does, accomplished, and his greatness
I like Dirk, but he got overrated by first beating the Lakers and then Stern handing him a ring(to bring more white fans in).
Jodelo
10-02-2011, 04:11 AM
I think Robinson can because he's the tallest/longest big time athlete the NBA has ever seen. One could argue Wilt I suppose, but he never had that sort of physique Robinson had. Also, prime Duncan can most certainly guard Dirk, same for KG. The difference is they're both old now and Dirk's jumper isn't going to leave him.
Dirk shitted on KG everytime KG tried to guard him, please...
Duncan was early on in his career on Dirk but i can´t tell tell if he can guard him, Dirk wasn´t in his prime back then!
Giuseppe
10-02-2011, 05:35 AM
i can pull up about 10000 comments on this site alone of spurs fans wishing stupid shit like injury and death on dirk. its not hard to find any.
Yep, yep.
stretch
10-02-2011, 09:32 AM
Also, prime Duncan can most certainly guard Dirk, same for KG. The difference is they're both old now and Dirk's jumper isn't going to leave him.
obviously once again you have no clue in hell what the fuck you are talking about, considering a young, developing Dirk torched the shit out of both Duncan and KG in the playoffs. Then when he began to hit his prime, Duncan had such a hard time, they had to put Bruce Bowen on Dirk, only for his ass to get torched as well.
fucking idiot
DUNCANownsKOBE
10-02-2011, 09:35 AM
The only Spurs player who ever really defended Dirk well was Malik Rose tbh
i can pull up about 10000 comments on this site alone of spurs fans wishing stupid shit like injury and death on dirk. its not hard to find any.
and its not a matter of me being racist, as opposed to ignorant black people who never want to give a good white player credit, which is not an uncommon thing whatsoever. maybe if you pulled your head out of your ass, you would see how massively underrated Dirk generally has been in his career by ignorant black dudes who only look at dunking and athleticism as meaning anything in basketball.
persecution complex :lmao
go upstairs, there are a few niggas that dont give him his due but for the most part most reasonable spurfans love the guy even though he plays for the state rivals.
and not slobbering over him like u =/= underappreciated faggot...im sure youd consider me one of those mean gnsf out to get dirk :cry yet ive said dirk is a borderline top 25 player of all-time, the 4th best pf of all-time, and that his fadeaway is arguably a top 5 most unstoppable move of all-time. for a one-dimensional player with supreme offense and little else, that was considered a second tier franchise player because of his teams playoff shortcomings, that has shriveled up in key moments thats not underappreciating at all imo.
nowhereman523
10-02-2011, 11:11 PM
18 – Dirk Nowitzki (PF, 7'0", 245 lb)
Awards: 1 x NBA champion, 1 x Regular Season MVP, 1 x Finals MVP, 4 x All-NBA 1st Team, 10 x All-Star
Numbers: 23.0ppg, 8.4rpg, 2.7apg, .877 FT% (1998-)
Words: “We'll remember him as one of the 20 best basketball players of all time, the best European player ever, one of the best shooters ever, someone who came through when it mattered” (Bill Simmons).
Will be higher than Pettit, Havlicek, and Erving by the end of next season.. whenever there is a next season. Right next to Moses.
stretch
10-03-2011, 10:18 AM
for a one-dimensional player with supreme offense and little else, that was considered a second tier franchise player because of his teams playoff shortcomings, that has shriveled up in key moments thats not underappreciating at all imo.
:lmao @ this bullshit
Monostradamus
10-03-2011, 10:54 AM
a second tier franchise player because of his teams playoff shortcomings, that has shriveled up in key moments
wait are we talking about Dirk or D-Rob here?
:lmao @ this bullshit
Your telling me Dirk was considered a first-tier franchise player, in the same pantheon as guys like Shaq, Duncan, Kobe or even guys like AI & Kidd? :lol
Last 7 minutes of 2006 Finals Game 3, Mavs up 13 with the knife on the heat's jugular:
Terry- 2/5
Harris-2/2
Stackhouse-0/1
Dirk-0/1 (took this shot with 6 min remaining :lol), offensive foul, interception by haslem
missed game-tying FT at end of game despite shooting 90%+ in both the reg season and playoffs :lmao
inbounder on the last play only being down by 2 and with a sec left :lmao:lmao
Same shit in Game 6 were Terry was taking all the big shots in the 4th qtr. GS series is self explanatory. Also people forget but this niggas balls shriveled up in that meltdown vs Portland in the 1st round this yr, he took like 1-2 shots the final 5 minutes despite beasting prior to that. Did the same in Game 6 when Portland nearly came back again but Terry bailed his ass out. The videos are there for niggas to see and confirm this.
stretch
10-03-2011, 01:00 PM
Dirk rang, and was the #1 reason for his team to be able to do so, and none of that garbage changes that. if we really want, we can go up and pull stats for basically every great player in years where they did not win championships, and find sub-par playoff runs.
Dirk has had subpar playoff runs, but has had more great playoff runs than poor ones. about the only truly POOR playoff run he had was the GS series. the next poorest was the 2005 run against Houston and Phoenix, where he didnt shoot the ball consistently, but was a monster on the boards, defense, and setting his teammates up. after that, basically every playoff run Dirk has had has been absolute money.
Killakobe81
10-03-2011, 01:29 PM
Interesting debate. Of course robinson was the better all-around player. But I cant argue with taking dirk over him either. If it was dirk vs. Tim (both prime) I take Tim. But dirk can score against half-court defense so much more effectively than David I can at least see where Stretch is coming from.
Let me ask you this ... Pippen (though he did not ring as a #1) has MANY of the same advantages that David has over Dirk ...So would anyone here that saw them both play in their primes take Pippen over Bird?
Just asking because a lot of the same stuff applies. Myself im not sure which way I would go but my heart says Larry, even though he is a faggot-ass Celtic ...
nowhereman523
10-03-2011, 01:52 PM
:lmao @ this bullshit
:toast
nowhereman523
10-03-2011, 02:08 PM
Your telling me Dirk was considered a first-tier franchise player, in the same pantheon as guys like Shaq, Duncan, Kobe or even guys like AI & Kidd? :lol
Last 7 minutes of 2006 Finals Game 3, Mavs up 13 with the knife on the heat's jugular:
Terry- 2/5
Harris-2/2
Stackhouse-0/1
Dirk-0/1 (took this shot with 6 min remaining :lol), offensive foul, interception by haslem
missed game-tying FT at end of game despite shooting 90%+ in both the reg season and playoffs :lmao
inbounder on the last play only being down by 2 and with a sec left :lmao:lmao
Same shit in Game 6 were Terry was taking all the big shots in the 4th qtr. GS series is self explanatory. Also people forget but this niggas balls shriveled up in that meltdown vs Portland in the 1st round this yr, he took like 1-2 shots the final 5 minutes despite beasting prior to that. Did the same in Game 6 when Portland nearly came back again but Terry bailed his ass out. The videos are there for niggas to see and confirm this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg1qGTLTzec
Not pictured - Duncan's balls shriveling as he misses a shot from 6 feet away to win the game at the end.
Pictured - No one being able to slow down Dirk - especially not Timmy in his prime.
Sean Cagney
10-03-2011, 02:14 PM
The usual nonsense about how Duncan is only what he is "because he played with a lot of talent (even though he didn't)" and "because he's big (as if he's physically overwhelming, like a Chamberlain/Robinson/O'Neal/Howard). McGrady is unquestionably on the short list of most talented players of all time, but so is Duncan. Duncan didn't overwhelm players physically the vast majority of the time, he flat out out skilled them. In his prime, he could do everything, from leading a break, to being the ball handler in pick-and-rolls, to shooting on the move, to guarding face up fours, etc.
.
YES SIR!!!!!!!:king
Killakobe81
10-03-2011, 02:35 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg1qGTLTzec
Not pictured - Duncan's balls shriveling as he misses a shot from 6 feet away to win the game at the end.
Pictured - No one being able to slow down Dirk - especially not Timmy in his prime.
Duncan is not as infallible and clutch in the playoffs as spur fans would have you believe, but no one is. even MJ had moments where he failed. But Duncan came up big more times than not ...
nowhereman523
10-03-2011, 03:12 PM
Duncan is not as infallible and clutch in the playoffs as spur fans would have you believe, but no one is. even MJ had moments where he failed. But Duncan came up big more times than not ...
Yup which is why he is consensus #1 PF. Just pointing out this silliness of using isolated instances to say guys like Kobe and Dirk aren't clutch.
Dirk rang, and was the #1 reason for his team to be able to do so, and none of that garbage changes that. if we really want, we can go up and pull stats for basically every great player in years where they did not win championships, and find sub-par playoff runs.
Yeaa he rang this year thats why I said for practically all of his career he was a second-tier franchise player, Im excluding this past season. Aside from homer mavfans noone ever had him in the same tier as guys like Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Kidd, AI, Tmac, or KG. Thats a fact.
but was a monster on the boards, defense
At this point I hope your just trolling nigga. Calling Dirk a monster on defense at any point in his career, or even for a series is ridiculous and u know it.
Let me ask you this ... Pippen (though he did not ring as a #1) has MANY of the same advantages that David has over Dirk ...So would anyone here that saw them both play in their primes take Pippen over Bird?
Just asking because a lot of the same stuff applies. Myself im not sure which way I would go but my heart says Larry, even though he is a faggot-ass Celtic ...
People like to point to Bird or Magic being average on defense to try to defend how one dimensional Dirk is. Heres the thing though...despite their average D both of them were some of the most complete players of all-time. Magic was a triple double machine with arguably the best courtvision the league has seen. Bird has the 5th most triple doubles of all-time. Not to mention they both won a whole lot more than Dirk has.
Guys like Gervin or Wilkins are the kind of players Dirk's one-dimensionalness should be compared to. They were truly strictly scorers and little else, just like Dirk. Dirk does have a title on them though so you definitely rank him above guys like them. While Dirk is a borderline Top 25 player, those guys probably rank in the 30s or 40s range.
stretch
10-03-2011, 03:21 PM
Yeaa he rang this year thats why I said for practically all of his career he was a second-tier franchise player, Im excluding this past season. Aside from homer mavfans noone ever had him in the same tier as guys like Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Kidd, AI, Tmac, or KG. Thats a fact.
:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao
i no longer wish to continue this debate with you and your complete dumbassery
How old are you, did you even watch AI and Tmac during their prime? Youre a fucking retard if you wouldve taken Dirk over either of those two players in the early & mid 2000s.
cantthinkofanything
10-03-2011, 03:23 PM
People like to point to Bird or Magic being average on defense to try to defend how one dimensional Dirk is. Heres the thing though...despite their average D both of them were some of the most complete players of all-time. Magic was a triple double machine with arguably the best courtvision the league has seen. Bird has the 5th most triple doubles of all-time. Not to mention they both won a whole lot more than Dirk has.
LOL. You're right. Magic and Bird won a whole lot more than Dirk. And with arguably weaker supporting casts.
LOL. You're right. Magic and Bird won a whole lot more than Dirk. And with arguably weaker supporting casts.
Ok exclude the winning part if you like, the point still stands.
Magic and Bird were still two of the most complete players of all-time. Dirk, not so much.
stretch
10-03-2011, 03:55 PM
How old are you, did you even watch AI and Tmac during their prime? Youre a fucking retard if you wouldve taken Dirk over either of those two players in the early & mid 2000s.
ive always said T-Mac is the most talented player to ever play in the NBA
but that doesnt mean shit if you dont put in the work to fully utilize it, which he didnt
AI is just laughable, putting up 30 points a game taking 30 shots a game
nowhereman523
10-03-2011, 03:58 PM
I as well no wish to continue this debate against this joker and his dumbassery.
The OP's list still underrates Dirk. By the time he retires, t15 no doubt.
cantthinkofanything
10-03-2011, 04:00 PM
Ok exclude the winning part if you like, the point still stands.
Magic and Bird were still two of the most complete players of all-time. Dirk, not so much.
I'm going to exclude it all. You could put me on a team with Scott, Kareem, Worth, Cooper, et al. and I've have great numbers as well. Bird is similar. But he did have a great shot.
ive always said T-Mac is the most talented player to ever play in the NBA
but that doesnt mean shit if you dont put in the work to fully utilize it, which he didnt
AI is just laughable, putting up 30 points a game taking 30 shots a game
So youre basically saying that most people wouldve taken Dirk over a young, healthy, prime Tmac in the early-mid 00s? :lol
AI was easily a better player than Dirk during that period as well. Try to ignore the fact that Dirk just won a title and that AI is somewhere in Turkey then maybe you wouldnt have such stupid takes.
I'm going to exclude it all. You could put me on a team with Scott, Kareem, Worth, Cooper, et al. and I've have great numbers as well. Bird is similar. But he did have a great shot.
:lol
Leetonidas
10-03-2011, 04:45 PM
T-Mac I can see an argument for but Allen Iverson? Really?? He was never anything more than a glorified chucker who gambled on defense for steals and had to be the center of a team that would never win because he was their best player. Who wouldn't take a 7 footer with as much offensive talent over a 5'11" chucker with a bad attitude? C'mon son
T-Mac I can see an argument for but Allen Iverson? Really?? He was never anything more than a glorified chucker who gambled on defense for steals and had to be the center of a team that would never win because he was their best player. Who wouldn't take a 7 footer with as much offensive talent over a 5'11" chucker with a bad attitude? C'mon son
Tmac only shot slightly less and with a slightly higher FG% than AI during that half decade.
Did you actually watch AI play though? Do you know who his #2 even was? His #3? Both his and Tmac's teammates were pretty bad, defenses focusing in on them so much had alot to do with the low FG%. Check his FG% when he was traded to Denver, it immediately went up from low 40s to mid 40s just by playing alongside more competent teammates. Both these players had some selfishness in them, just like most great scorers do, but alot of the 'chucking' was justified as well.
badfish22
10-03-2011, 05:21 PM
so much time spent in this thread by gnsf
Just as much time spent by the regulatorz :lol
TD 21
10-03-2011, 06:28 PM
i can pull up about 10000 comments on this site alone of spurs fans wishing stupid shit like injury and death on dirk. its not hard to find any.
and its not a matter of me being racist, as opposed to ignorant black people who never want to give a good white player credit, which is not an uncommon thing whatsoever. maybe if you pulled your head out of your ass, you would see how massively underrated Dirk generally has been in his career by ignorant black dudes who only look at dunking and athleticism as meaning anything in basketball.
Maybe so, but if you look hard enough, you'll find double that of Spurs fans who are blatant Nowitzki fans.
That's exactly what it is and with each passing racist comment, you only make it more obvious. "Ignorant black people who never want to give a good white player credit", aka not incessantly slobbering over every good white player and pretending they're better than they actually are. It's not about "dunking and athleticism", it's about being an all around player and he never has been. I never had Iverson rated as high as the vast majority for the exact same reason. Nowitzki has been massively overrated since '06. I knew it would go to another level after the championship and sure enough, it has. He's benefiting from revisionist history to almost Bryant proportions at this point.
Giuseppe
10-03-2011, 06:45 PM
He's benefiting from revisionist history to almost Bryant proportions at this point.
Kobe: 5
that revised white guy: 1
withstanding.
dirk4mvp
10-03-2011, 07:33 PM
Kobe: 5
that revised white guy: 1
withstanding.
that revised white guy: 4
Kobe: 0
permanent.
joshdaboss
10-04-2011, 05:36 AM
obviously once again you have no clue in hell what the fuck you are talking about, considering a young, developing Dirk torched the shit out of both Duncan and KG in the playoffs. Then when he began to hit his prime, Duncan had such a hard time, they had to put Bruce Bowen on Dirk, only for his ass to get torched as well.
fucking idiot
Please show me evidence of Dirk torching Duncan and KG. ROFL I'd love to see this mythical video footage.
stretch
10-04-2011, 08:42 AM
Please show me evidence of Dirk torching Duncan and KG. ROFL I'd love to see this mythical video footage.
quit being lazy and get your own evidence, faggot
if you were a true spur fan, you would vividly recall many times Dirk completely lighting Duncan and the Spurs up. lol bandwagon fan
Veterinarian.
10-04-2011, 09:02 AM
it's sad how an "elite" defender like Duncan had to pussy out and resort to his SF guarding Dirk. But hey, he did a good job at guarding Dampier so that's all that matters!
Dampiers offensive resume wore Duncan out though and he proceeded to get shit all over by Desagana muthafuckin Diop :lmao
If Duncan had balls, he would've taken Dirk 1v1 especially because he is an "elite" defender. Maybe Smokey Howard wouldn't have gone off either
Killakobe81
10-04-2011, 11:38 AM
Yeaa he rang this year thats why I said for practically all of his career he was a second-tier franchise player, Im excluding this past season. Aside from homer mavfans noone ever had him in the same tier as guys like Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Kidd, AI, Tmac, or KG. Thats a fact.
At this point I hope your just trolling nigga. Calling Dirk a monster on defense at any point in his career, or even for a series is ridiculous and u know it.
People like to point to Bird or Magic being average on defense to try to defend how one dimensional Dirk is. Heres the thing though...despite their average D both of them were some of the most complete players of all-time. Magic was a triple double machine with arguably the best courtvision the league has seen. Bird has the 5th most triple doubles of all-time. Not to mention they both won a whole lot more than Dirk has.
Guys like Gervin or Wilkins are the kind of players Dirk's one-dimensionalness should be compared to. They were truly strictly scorers and little else, just like Dirk. Dirk does have a title on them though so you definitely rank him above guys like them. While Dirk is a borderline Top 25 player, those guys probably rank in the 30s or 40s range.
Thing is Bird and Magic were both great team defenders, but shitty 1on 1 defenders. Like I said I am not taking sides here, I think both Dirk and David are great. I think that despite Dirk not being as great an all-around player the debate is close enough that a ring give Dirk the edge. But IF YOU don't think they are close, than the ring should break the "tie" ... IMHO.
I guess my question is, where do folks here (non-biased spur fans) truly rank David? And where do they rank Dirk? Again, for me it's close and I would probably give David the edge, but Dirk is still going and is finishing his career strong. So even if you discount the ring, unless dirk suffers a debilitating injury most would say he will of had the better career. The Navy and his back shaved off some of his prime ...
BTW feel the same about Bird vs. Magic. Bird was the better player early, Magic had the better finish. Magic has more rings so I take him over Larry. but I admit i am biased, Magic is my all-time favorite player. Here I have no stake in this debate, but was never a fan of David but like I said earlier I guess I expected more than we got.
cantthinkofanything
10-04-2011, 11:59 AM
If I have to choose DRob or Dirk to start a team, it's a no brainer that I take DRob. He immediatley gives you scoring, rebounding, and a dominating defensive presence in thet post.
stretch
10-04-2011, 12:01 PM
If I have to choose DRob or Dirk to start a team, it's a no brainer that I take DRob. He immediatley gives you scoring, rebounding, and a dominating defensive presence in thet post.
he also gives you a choker for a leader, who is more interested in chasing niggas around with a bible than winning playoff basketball games
:cry great fuckin leader :cry
Giuseppe
10-04-2011, 12:05 PM
he also gives you a choker for a leader
It's just the truth. Bitter, but, the truth nonetheless.
cantthinkofanything
10-04-2011, 12:06 PM
double teamed by dumb and dumber
stretch
10-04-2011, 12:11 PM
Thing is Bird and Magic were both great team defenders, but shitty 1on 1 defenders. Like I said I am not taking sides here, I think both Dirk and David are great. I think that despite Dirk not being as great an all-around player the debate is close enough that a ring give Dirk the edge. But IF YOU don't think they are close, than the ring should break the "tie" ... IMHO.
I guess my question is, where do folks here (non-biased spur fans) truly rank David? And where do they rank Dirk? Again, for me it's close and I would probably give David the edge, but Dirk is still going and is finishing his career strong. So even if you discount the ring, unless dirk suffers a debilitating injury most would say he will of had the better career. The Navy and his back shaved off some of his prime ...
BTW feel the same about Bird vs. Magic. Bird was the better player early, Magic had the better finish. Magic has more rings so I take him over Larry. but I admit i am biased, Magic is my all-time favorite player. Here I have no stake in this debate, but was never a fan of David but like I said earlier I guess I expected more than we got.
My main issue with David is that he never was a truly elite leader. He could help his team win lots of regular season games, but when the playoffs rolled around, and defenses clamped down, he had trouble leading his team, in particular on the offensive end. He could get some easy buckets off of putbacks and open mid-range shots, but when crunch-time rolled around, he struggled. He did not have a very good range of offensive moves to use. In a way, he was a lot like Dwight Howard is now. When crunch time rolls around, pretty much any elite defensive team dares Dwight to beat them straight up, only shooting a double when he kills his dribble. Dwight doesn't have the skillset to find ways to either score at will, or to draw extra defensive attention to involve his teammates.
Faggots like Fkla and TD21 keep talking about "Dirk shot 41% in the finals!!!!!! he is a choker!!!!!! :madrun". Just take a look at how Dirk would finish those games... is there any way in hell a guy like David or Dwight finds ways to create those comebacks, or to prevent Miami from making late game runs the way Dirk did? No way.
Dirk in a way is a one trick pony, and his one trick is offensive dominance. It's a damn strong trick too. David had several tricks, although none of his tricks were ever nearly as strong as Dirk's one trick. This is evident in how their playoff careers have gone. David is known for crumbling, while Dirk made a career of improving. Yeah, he had a few bad games, a couple bad series, but everyone has, whether you are talking about MJ, Kobe, Duncan, Bird, Magic, etc... but he had way more good performances, than he had bad ones. Can't say the same about Davey.
Dirk > Davey
Giuseppe
10-04-2011, 12:20 PM
double teamed by dumb and dumber
:lol
badfish22
10-04-2011, 12:28 PM
Just as much time spent by the regulatorz :lol
not at all. You've wrote novels of butthurt itt.
Cuppycake Gumdrop
10-04-2011, 01:15 PM
it's sad how an "elite" defender like Duncan had to pussy out and resort to his SF guarding Dirk. But hey, he did a good job at guarding Dampier so that's all that matters!
Dampiers offensive resume wore Duncan out though and he proceeded to get shit all over by Desagana muthafuckin Diop :lmao
If Duncan had balls, he would've taken Dirk 1v1 especially because he is an "elite" defender. Maybe Smokey Howard wouldn't have gone off either
:lmao so true.
Axe Murderer
10-04-2011, 01:19 PM
How old are you, did you even watch AI and Tmac during their prime? Youre a fucking retard if you wouldve taken Dirk over either of those two players in the early & mid 2000s.
sons there is one thing that these two were GREAT at and did much better than Dirk.
that was making flashy coon/nignog plays that wowed your casual audience. However, when it came to taking your team deep in the playoffs these two were nowhere to be found. Outside of one fluky season (2001 where Iverson beat up on a bunch of high school teams) these two were more interested in making covers of Sports ######strated than helping their team
Giuseppe
10-04-2011, 01:29 PM
sons there is one thing that these two were GREAT at and did much better than Dirk.
that was making flashy coon/nignog plays that wowed your casual audience. However, when it came to taking your team deep in the playoffs these two were nowhere to be found. Outside of one fluky season (2001 where Iverson beat up on a bunch of high school teams) these two were more interested in making covers of Sports ######strated than helping their team
I hate this SOB with a passion reserved only for my MIL and that fool Hussein Obama, but, Axe here makes good sense.
My main issue with David is that he never was a truly elite leader. He could help his team win lots of regular season games, but when the playoffs rolled around, and defenses clamped down, he had trouble leading his team, in particular on the offensive end. He could get some easy buckets off of putbacks and open mid-range shots, but when crunch-time rolled around, he struggled. He did not have a very good range of offensive moves to use. In a way, he was a lot like Dwight Howard is now. When crunch time rolls around, pretty much any elite defensive team dares Dwight to beat them straight up, only shooting a double when he kills his dribble. Dwight doesn't have the skillset to find ways to either score at will, or to draw extra defensive attention to involve his teammates.
Faggots like Fkla and TD21 keep talking about "Dirk shot 41% in the finals!!!!!! he is a choker!!!!!! :madrun". Just take a look at how Dirk would finish those games... is there any way in hell a guy like David or Dwight finds ways to create those comebacks, or to prevent Miami from making late game runs the way Dirk did? No way.
Dirk in a way is a one trick pony, and his one trick is offensive dominance. It's a damn strong trick too. David had several tricks, although none of his tricks were ever nearly as strong as Dirk's one trick. This is evident in how their playoff careers have gone. David is known for crumbling, while Dirk made a career of improving. Yeah, he had a few bad games, a couple bad series, but everyone has, whether you are talking about MJ, Kobe, Duncan, Bird, Magic, etc... but he had way more good performances, than he had bad ones. Can't say the same about Davey.
Dirk > Davey
Dirk has arguably a top 5 most unstoppable move ever in his fadeaway. The fact that he has that in his repertoire makes him more effective in late game situations than Robinson. You can say he is more valuable in the clutch and that would be accurate. Instead your using that as your reason for why Dirk was a better basketball player, and thats just plain stupid.
Manu>Bron using that logic.
not at all. You've wrote novels of butthurt itt.
and several regulatorz have taken the time to respond to every single one of them :)
stretch
10-04-2011, 03:00 PM
Dirk has arguably a top 5 most unstoppable move ever in his fadeaway. The fact that he has that in his repertoire makes him more effective in late game situations than Robinson. You can say he is more valuable in the clutch and that would be accurate. Instead your using that as your reason for why Dirk was a better basketball player, and thats just plain stupid.
Manu>Bron using that logic.
Dirk has plenty more moves than just a fadeaway. It was evident when he hit 2 game winners in the Finals alone by driving past his opponent with a series of dribble and post moves.
and in crunchtime, yes, Manu is arguably better than Lebron because of his skillset, although Manu has never been a true #1, so thats a completely different story. Dirk is a true #1.
Thing is Bird and Magic were both great team defenders, but shitty 1on 1 defenders. Like I said I am not taking sides here, I think both Dirk and David are great. I think that despite Dirk not being as great an all-around player the debate is close enough that a ring give Dirk the edge. But IF YOU don't think they are close, than the ring should break the "tie" ... IMHO.
I guess my question is, where do folks here (non-biased spur fans) truly rank David? And where do they rank Dirk? Again, for me it's close and I would probably give David the edge, but Dirk is still going and is finishing his career strong. So even if you discount the ring, unless dirk suffers a debilitating injury most would say he will of had the better career. The Navy and his back shaved off some of his prime ...
BTW feel the same about Bird vs. Magic. Bird was the better player early, Magic had the better finish. Magic has more rings so I take him over Larry. but I admit i am biased, Magic is my all-time favorite player. Here I have no stake in this debate, but was never a fan of David but like I said earlier I guess I expected more than we got.
Im a biased spurfan (against Dirk) apparently, but I'll give my take either way. I'd rank Dirk as a borderline Top 25 player. So probably mid-late 20s range. Which really isnt bad for a player as one-dimensional as Dirk has been. Which other player in the Top 30 can you look at and realize he only had one elite skill? The fact that Dirk is ranked that high despite that is a testament to just how great his offense is but at the same time you just cant ignore his other deficiencies.
David I'd rank slightly above, just inside the Top 25. I if Dirk finishes his career strong, and performs in the playoffs like he did this year (which hasnt always been the case despite what homer mavfan say) then he likely surpasses Dave. But as of today David>Dirk.
Dirk has plenty more moves than just a fadeaway. It was evident when he hit 2 game winners in the Finals alone by driving past his opponent with a series of dribble and post moves.
and in crunchtime, yes, Manu is arguably better than Lebron because of his skillset, although Manu has never been a true #1, so thats a completely different story. Dirk is a true #1.
Dirk is more valuable than Dave in the clutch. I agree.
stretch
10-04-2011, 03:21 PM
Dirk is more valuable than Dave in the clutch. I agree.
Dirk > davey
Axe Murderer
10-04-2011, 04:33 PM
I hate this SOB with a passion reserved only for my MIL and that fool Hussein Obama, but, Axe here makes good sense.
what about Will Hunting?
Giuseppe
10-04-2011, 06:58 PM
what about Will Hunting?
Please. He ain't shown up since Vuj took the Celtics by the scruff of the neck and dragged 'em all to the free throw line where he proceeded to leave them there. You guessed it, baby-doll....dead...in the fuckin' ground.
Boston Pancake
10-04-2011, 07:01 PM
Please. He ain't shown up since Vuj took the Celtics by the scruff of the neck and dragged 'em all to the free throw line where he proceeded to leave them there. You guessed it, baby-doll....dead...in the fuckin' ground.
Come here, I'll give you a fuckin baby doll! it'll be wicked good too!
Giuseppe
10-04-2011, 07:11 PM
Come here, I'll give you a fuckin baby doll! it'll be wicked good too!
Git naked & bend over, bitch. I'm more than a little horny.
Boston Pancake
10-04-2011, 07:18 PM
Git naked & bend over, bitch. I'm more than a little horny.
You'll have to wait till after I finish wrecking Katie-girl's balloon knot.
Giuseppe
10-04-2011, 07:22 PM
You'll have to wait till after I finish wrecking Katie-girl's balloon knot.
lmcontrollinao!!!
Axe Murderer
10-04-2011, 09:58 PM
Please. He ain't shown up since Vuj took the Celtics by the scruff of the neck and dragged 'em all to the free throw line where he proceeded to leave them there. You guessed it, baby-doll....dead...in the fuckin' ground.
Actually he crossed the line here on spurstalk soil and it was the Ellis girl leavin him dead in the ground.
Just like that
You'll have to wait till after I finish wrecking Katie-girl's balloon knot.
:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao :lmao:lmao
Giuseppe
10-04-2011, 10:50 PM
:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao :lmao:lmao
Look at ya.
:rolleyes
Koolaid_Man
10-09-2011, 04:39 PM
.
dirk4mvp
10-09-2011, 05:58 PM
rofl balloon knot
nevitt_&_smrek
10-11-2011, 04:33 AM
Kareem > Wilt.
stretch
10-11-2011, 10:47 AM
Kareem > Wilt.
:tu
Giuseppe
10-11-2011, 10:48 AM
:tu
Ditto.
Veterinarian.
10-11-2011, 10:50 AM
Sup 'seppe
Giuseppe
10-11-2011, 10:52 AM
& I'll tell ya why:::Wilt was a broken negroe. Kareem was not. Wilt did not have Robertson or Magic. Kareem had each. Wilt was born too early. Kareem was born on time.
Giuseppe
10-11-2011, 10:53 AM
Sup 'seppe
Good morning, my fine friend.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2026 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.