Why has no one been fired?

[Yonivore]

Gunwalker: ATF Walked Guns Directly to Cartel Using Taxpayer Dollars (http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/gunwalker-atf-walked-guns-directly-to-cartel-using-taxpayer-dollars/)

Seriously. There should be people in jail, already.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Gunwalker: ATF Walked Guns Directly to Cartel Using Taxpayer Dollars (http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/gunwalker-atf-walked-guns-directly-to-cartel-using-taxpayer-dollars/)

Seriously. There should be people in jail, already.

We're still waiting for the prosecution of those who led us into an unecessary war...

[Yonivore]

We're still waiting for the prosecution of those who led us into an unecessary war...
Okay, keep beating your dead horse while we deal with the present. And, that's a question you should ask the Obama Justice Department; seems to me they'd be the ones doing any prosecuting.

But, seriously, do you think crimes were committed here? Why did the Obama administration promote and transfer the two most culpable participants?

[hater]

There should be people in jail, already.

Rummy, Cheney, Rove and/or Bush?

[hater]

http://rlv.zcache.com/nixon_gop_button-p145594916104587165t5sj_400.jpg

[George Gervin's Afro]

Okay, keep beating your dead horse while we deal with the present. And, that's a question you should ask the Obama Justice Department; seems to me they'd be the ones doing any prosecuting.

But, seriously, do you think crimes were committed here? Why did the Obama administration promote and transfer the two most culpable participants?

Unlike you I find it to a serious offense to wage war on 'less than certain facts'.... but hey you go back to ankle biting..


just sayin

[Yonivore]

Unlike you I find it to a serious offense to wage war on 'less than certain facts'.... but hey you go back to ankle biting..
Unlike you, I don't believe any crimes were committed but, continue your crusade to bring your boogeymen to justice. No one is stopping you.

Now, do you believe, as I do, that crimes have been committed in the "Fast and Furious" government tax dollars and guns for narco-terrorist program?


just sayin
Just askin'.

[101A]

I haven't paid any attention to the "Fast and Furious" - but the knee jerk reaction of the Obamabots to anything critical is as unproductive as it is predictable.

(and now you can respond with, "But that's what the Bushies did!"

In the meantime, no actual discussion takes place.

[hater]

Unlike you, I don't believe any crimes were committed

WASHINGTON — The Army general who led the investigation into prisoner abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison accused the Bush administration Wednesday of committing "war crimes" and called for those responsible to be held to account.

The remarks by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, who's now retired, came in a new report that found that U.S. personnel tortured and abused detainees in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, using beatings, electrical shocks, sexual humiliation and other cruel practices.

"After years of disclosures by government investigations, media accounts and reports from human rights organizations, there is no longer any doubt as to whether the current administration has committed war crimes," Taguba wrote. "The only question that remains to be answered is whether those who ordered the use of torture will be held to account."

Taguba, whose 2004 investigation documented chilling abuses at Abu Ghraib, is thought to be the most senior official to have accused the administration of war crimes. "The commander in chief and those under him authorized a systematic regime of torture," he wrote.

A White House spokeswoman, Kate Starr, had no comment.

[CosmicCowboy]

Okay, keep beating your dead horse while we deal with the present. And, that's a question you should ask the Obama Justice Department; seems to me they'd be the ones doing any prosecuting.

But, seriously, do you think crimes were committed here? Why did the Obama administration promote and transfer the two most culpable participants?

The justice department is neck deep in this. This was all a ploy to intentionally provide guns to the cartels (KNOWING and CELEBRATING when they were used to commit crimes) from the USA to build public and political sentiment for cracking down on gun sales.

[101A]

WASHINGTON — The Army general who led the investigation into prisoner abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison accused the Bush administration Wednesday of committing "war crimes" and called for those responsible to be held to account.

The remarks by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, who's now retired, came in a new report that found that U.S. personnel tortured and abused detainees in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, using beatings, electrical shocks, sexual humiliation and other cruel practices.

"After years of disclosures by government investigations, media accounts and reports from human rights organizations, there is no longer any doubt as to whether the current administration has committed war crimes," Taguba wrote. "The only question that remains to be answered is whether those who ordered the use of torture will be held to account."

Taguba, whose 2004 investigation documented chilling abuses at Abu Ghraib, is thought to be the most senior official to have accused the administration of war crimes. "The commander in chief and those under him authorized a systematic regime of torture," he wrote.

A White House spokeswoman, Kate Starr, had no comment.

Seems to be OT. You should start a new thread with this.

[101A]

We're still waiting for the prosecution of those who led us into an unecessary war...

Seems to be OT, you should start a new thread with this.

[101A]

Rummy, Cheney, Rove and/or Bush?

This should go in GGA's new thread

[George Gervin's Afro]

Seems to be OT, you should start a new thread with this.

I like to keep reminding the hypocrites of who they are..


in regards to the possibility of a crime? I have no doubt that the red team in Congress will do whatever they can to at least give the impression there was a crime..

the guy who created the OP already believes there was a crime without all of the facts so pardon some of us for not taking him too seriously...

[CosmicCowboy]

i like to keep reminding the hypocrites that i am incapable of independent thought but great at regurgitating tired talking points

50

[Yonivore]

The Obama administration is indefensible on this, and so many other matters, that I choose to regurgitate a decade-old liberal canard instead of admitting the King has no clothes.
There, fixed it for you.

So, do you believe any crimes have been committed in the "Fast and Furious" scandal and are you outraged no one has been indicted or arrested?

Just askin'.

[George Gervin's Afro]

I haven't paid any attention to the "Fast and Furious" - but the knee jerk reaction of the Obamabots to anything critical is as unproductive as it is predictable.

(and now you can respond with, "But that's what the Bushies did!"

In the meantime, no actual discussion takes place.

I don't know if there was a crime that was committed so I am not ready to level the charges... considering no one esle has of yet either..

now back to your ..

[George Gervin's Afro]

There, fixed it for you.

I don't need any facts to level charges
Just askin'.

[George Gervin's Afro]

50

speaking of regurgitating talking points, where ya been CC?

[Yonivore]

Fact. The "Fast and Furious" Program was a federally funded ATF Program.

Fact. The "Fast and Furious" Program gave tax dollars to drug cartels so they could buy guns from ATF-selected gun shops in America.

Fact. Some of those guns have been used to kill a U.S. Law Enforcement Officer.

That's enough for me to say someone needs to be in jail.

[George Gervin's Afro]

so now yoni is for holding an administration accountable before he was against holding an administration accountable..got it..

very intellectually honest of you..

[Yonivore]

I don't know if there was a crime that was committed so I am not ready to level the charges... considering no one esle has of yet either..

now back to your ..
Well, no one else has leveled charges because the agency that would do so is implicated as being neck-deep in the program.

[CosmicCowboy]

so now yoni is for holding an administration accountable before he was against holding an administration accountable..got it..

very intellectually honest of you..


Talk about hypocrisy...

[George Gervin's Afro]

Fact. The "Fast and Furious" Program was a federally funded ATF Program.

Fact. The "Fast and Furious" Program gave tax dollars to drug cartels so they could buy guns from ATF-selected gun shops in America.

Fact. Some of those guns have been used to kill a U.S. Law Enforcement Officer.

That's enough for me to say someone needs to be in jail.

what law was broken?

[101A]

Fact. The "Fast and Furious" Program was a federally funded ATF Program.

Fact. The "Fast and Furious" Program gave tax dollars to drug cartels so they could buy guns from ATF-selected gun shops in America.

Fact. Some of those guns have been used to kill a U.S. Law Enforcement Officer.

That's enough for me to say someone needs to be in jail.

Obviously. The person(s) who killed the ATF officer should be in jail. None of the other stuff you list is necessarily a crime.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Well, no one else has leveled charges because the agency that would do so is implicated as being neck-deep in the program.

so as of now no laws were broken...


wow yoni accusing someone without any charges being filed..SHOCKING

[CosmicCowboy]

what law was broken?

do you know what a straw purchase is?

[George Gervin's Afro]

Talk about hypocrisy...

I am for accountability dummy.. difference between you and me is that you level charges without waiting for all of the facts to be laid out... now go back pick your pom poms and lift your skirt...

[Yonivore]

so now yoni is for holding an administration accountable before he was against holding an administration accountable..got it..

very intellectually honest of you..
I was for holding the Bush administration accountable. You and I just disagree on whether or not the Bush administration committed any crimes.

I hold the Bush administration accountable for giving Barack Obama a boost on his economic war against America by signing TARP into law. Beyond that, I'm pretty satisfied with the conduct of the Bush administration over the 8 years he was in office.

This administration seems to be one scandal after another.

[George Gervin's Afro]

do you know what a straw purchase is?

have you ever heard of undercover officers doing things that criminals do to catch them? It's called undercover work. in fact under cover police officers purchase and sell drugs.. and 'gasp' those drungs may find their way in someone's body..Oh the horrah!.

[CosmicCowboy]

I am for accountability dummy.. difference between you and me is that you level charges without waiting for all of the facts to be laid out... now go back pick your pom poms and lift your skirt...

:lmao:lmao

There are a lot more differences than that, loser.

[hater]

point is if Cheney and co didn't get locked up for torture, leaking cia operatives, making personal profit off Iraq war, wiretapping, spying, etc, etc.

nobody now is gonna get locked up for a few guns being "sold in the black market"

[George Gervin's Afro]

I was for holding the Bush administration accountable. You and I just disagree on whether or not the Bush administration committed any crimes.

I hold the Bush administration accountable for giving Barack Obama a boost on his economic war against America by signing TARP into law. Beyond that, I'm pretty satisfied with the conduct of the Bush administration over the 8 years he was in office.

This administration seems to be one scandal after another.

what charges have been brought from all of the 'scandals'

[Yonivore]

do you know what a straw purchase is?
I'm pretty sure it's against the law to sell to felons, too.

It's also against the law to export certain firearms.

I'm pretty sure there's a lot illegal about giving a criminal tax dollars to buy a gun he then takes across an international border to kill a U.S. agent.

[Yonivore]

what charges have been brought from all of the 'scandals'
Well, when you have a complicit Justice Department, it's pretty hard to make headway but, I think Republicans in Congress are making progress on several of the scandals.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Well, when you have a complicit Justice Department, it's pretty hard to make headway but, I think Republicans in Congress are making progress on several of the scandals.

so in other words no charges= no scandals

:lmao you and CC are a hoot!

[George Gervin's Afro]

I'm pretty sure it's against the law to sell to felons, too.

It's also against the law to export certain firearms.

I'm pretty sure there's a lot illegal about giving a criminal tax dollars to buy a gun he then takes across an international border to kill a U.S. agent.


have you ever heard of undercover officers doing things that criminals do to catch them? It's called undercover work. in fact under cover police officers purchase and sell drugs.. and 'gasp' those drungs may find their way in someone's body..Oh the horrah!.

[Yonivore]

point is if Cheney and co didn't get locked up for torture,
Because there was no torture -- except the abuses at Abu Ghraib, which were prosecuted.


... leaking cia operatives,...
I don't believe Valerie Plame was even subject to the law being cited but, even so, Richard Armitage confessed to his boss who passed that on to the FBI, early in the investigation. Everything after that was a witch hunt.


... making personal profit off Iraq war,...
Elaborate.


...wiretapping,...
A legitimate intelligence technique.


...spying,...
OMG! Nations spy on their enemies? NO!


...nobody now is gonna get locked up for a few guns being "sold in the black market"
How many deaths can be attributed to the "Fast and Furious" program?

:lmao @ calling it the "black market." Black markets are generally employed to circumvent government controls and taxes; it's pretty goddamn funny when someone applies that term to a government program.

[CosmicCowboy]

have you ever heard of undercover officers doing things that criminals do to catch them? It's called undercover work. in fact under cover police officers purchase and sell drugs.. and 'gasp' those drungs may find their way in someone's body..Oh the horrah!.

EXCEPT there was no attempt to track the guns in Mexico or prosecute the cartel members that took possession of the guns and THERE NEVER WAS. The goal was to make sure crimes got committed in Mexico with guns the ATF could document were purchased in the US.

[boutons_deux]

Not only was nobody fired nor job grade degraded, the main guy was transferred into another pretty good govt job.

Above a certain level, there really is no accountability anymore in American life.

HCA's massive govt fraud under Rick Scott cost Scott nothing of his $Bs. Now he's gov of FL.

[Yonivore]

have you ever heard of undercover officers doing things that criminals do to catch them? It's called undercover work. in fact under cover police officers purchase and sell drugs.. and 'gasp' those drungs may find their way in someone's body..Oh the horrah!.
You watch too much television.

I've been involved in law enforcement - in one facet or another - for my entire adult life.

Whatever undercover officers do to convince criminals they're legitimate, they do to themselves or they get help in faking it. Never have I heard of a legitimate undercover operation enabling criminals to commit a crime. That's illegal.

If it's done to catch a criminal committing a crime, it's called entrapment.

If it's done with reckless disregard for the well-being of others, it makes the undercover officers complicit in whatever crime ensues from the act. In this case, it's the murder of a U.S. Law Enforcement Officer.

In either case, it's illegal and should be prosecuted. There are no loopholes in the law to allow an undercover officer to violate the law...particularly any law that results (or has the potential to result) in death or injury.

[clambake]

I've been involved in law enforcement - in one facet or another - for my entire adult life.

you make sure the kids are tall enough to ride?

[ElNono]

This again? Sure, they should be prosecuted. They probably won't for the same political reasons as always, regardless of whose team they play for.

[hater]

Above a certain level, there really is no accountability anymore in American life.


right. this is why nobody went to jail from bush admin and nobody will go to jail from obama admin.

in a perfect world, I agree both admins should have ppl in jail. that is something Yoni,etc should be in agreement with.

[ChumpDumper]

EXCEPT there was no attempt to track the guns in Mexico or prosecute the cartel members that took possession of the guns and THERE NEVER WAS. The goal was to make sure crimes got committed in Mexico with guns the ATF could document were purchased in the US.How would they track it, other than documenting when it was used?

[CosmicCowboy]

How would they track it, other than documenting when it was used?

No shit, Sherlock. You made my point.

Thank you.

[ChumpDumper]

No shit, Sherlock. You made my point.

Thank you.So it was tracked.

Thank you.

[CosmicCowboy]

So it was tracked.

Thank you.

Sure. The FBI/ATF bought guns in the USA and made sure the cartels got them hoping they would kill people with them so they could be "re-located".

Great "tracking" plan there Einstein.

[ChumpDumper]

Sure. The FBI/ATF bought guns in the USA and made sure the cartels got them hoping they would kill people with them so they could be "re-located".

Great tracking plan there Einstein.Again, how else would they track them?

[CosmicCowboy]

Again, how else would they track them?

You are kidding, right? How about not giving them the fucking guns to start with?

[George Gervin's Afro]

EXCEPT there was no attempt to track the guns in Mexico or prosecute the cartel members that took possession of the guns and THERE NEVER WAS. The goal was to make sure crimes got committed in Mexico with guns the ATF could document were purchased in the US.

so let's assume they didn't track the guns, is that illegal? The whole point of the operation was to track the guns to cartels in Mexico... maybe you should broaden your news sources skippy..

god you are a dumbass.

[George Gervin's Afro]

You are kidding, right? How about not giving them the fucking guns to start with?

to track them to the cartels ..how hard is that to understand stupid?

[CosmicCowboy]

so let's assume they didn't track the guns, is that illegal? The whole point of the operation was to track the guns to cartels in Mexico... maybe you should broaden your news sources skippy..

And you condone this? What was the fucking point?

[CosmicCowboy]

to track them to the cartels ..how hard is that to understand stupid?

You condone GIVING FUCKING GUNS TO THE CARTELS and you call ME stupid?

You fucking moron.

[George Gervin's Afro]

And you condone this? What was the fucking point?

the whole point of the operation was to track the guns.... they apparently didn't do a good job..they didn't break any laws..

[ChumpDumper]

So track the guns by not putting the guns in circulation and keeping them yourself.

There is a certain simplicity to it.

[CosmicCowboy]

the whole point of the operation was to track the guns.... they apparently didn't do a good job..they didn't break any laws..

:lmao

moron

[George Gervin's Afro]

You condone GIVING FUCKING GUNS TO THE CARTELS and you call ME stupid?

You fucking moron.

ok I'll slow down stupid, the game was to sell to gun runners who would then turn and sell them to the cartels.. (hint this inverstigation was started by the Bush administration) the US would then be able to locate cartel members from the purchased guns.. you do realize this was the basis for the operation, right?

[George Gervin's Afro]

:lmao

moron

so they didn't break any laws.. thanks for clarifying that your feinged outrage/ bitching was for naught.. just a show

[CosmicCowboy]

So track the guns by not putting the guns in circulation and keeping them yourself.

There is a certain simplicity to it.

What is the point of "proving" the cartels use guns to commit violent crimes by giving them guns to commit the violent crimes with? Did any reasonable person think the cartels were using rubber bands and spitballs?

[ChumpDumper]

What is the point of "proving" the cartels use guns to commit violent crimes by giving them guns to commit the violent crimes with? Did any reasonable person think the cartels were using rubber bands and spitballs?Where do you think they get the guns other than those involved in this operation?

Be specific.

[CosmicCowboy]

so they didn't break any laws.. thanks for clarifying that your feinged outrage/ bitching was for naught.. just a show

:lmao

moron

Don't be so quick to claim no laws were broken when the investigations aren't even close to being over. New facts are coming out almost every day.

It's really appalling that you guys support and condone the US government GIVING weapons to the Mexican Drug Cartels.

[hater]

Don't be so quick to claim no laws were broken when the investigations aren't even close to being over.

and vice-versa

[Yonivore]

to track them to the cartels ..how hard is that to understand stupid?
Were they equipped with tracking devices? I haven't heard that.

Tell me, how did the design of the "Fast and Furious" program intend to allow U. S. federal agents to track down cartels? It's no mystery cartels use guns. It's no mystery cartels kill people with them.

What is apparently a mystery to the U.S. federal agents in charge of this clusterfuck is that cartels dump guns used to kill U.S. agents and, therefore screw up their plan. Guess they didn't see that coming.

They also seem to be oblivious to the fact the cartels don't give a fuck that you're trying to locate them. And, I don't think giving them weapons with the hopes (there's that word again) you'll be able to find out who and where they are, later, when the guns turn up in their possession, is the best way to track them down.

Seriously, what was the plan between selling them the guns and locating the cartels in possession of them? Seems to me they cut out a pretty important part of the plan...tracking the fucking guns.

If they had truly wanted to track down the cartels, they would have conducted surveillance on the transit of the guns they sold to the narco-terrorists.

Tracking down cartels, as an excuse, is laughable on it's face.

[CosmicCowboy]

Where do you think they get the guns other than those involved in this operation?

Be specific.

Surely you aren't THAT stupid. They are billionaires. They can get guns anywhere they want. Central America is loaded with AK's and AR's. Do some come from the US too? Sure...so fucking what?

[ChumpDumper]

Surely you aren't THAT stupid. They are billionaires. They can get guns anywhere they want. Central America is loaded with AK's and AR's. Do some come from the US too? Sure...so fucking what?So some of the guns come from the US?

How does that happen?

[CosmicCowboy]

So some of the guns come from the US?

How does that happen?

Duh. They buy them and smuggle them out of the country just like they smuggle drugs into the country.

That is no reason to quit selling guns in the USA.

[George Gervin's Afro]

I am begining to agree with the dumbasses on this board..we need to start looking at the adminstration who started this prgram in 2006... who was president then? I would assume you guys who want to get to the bottom of it would want to start with who authorized it. Did Obama authorize this?

I demand answers..

[ChumpDumper]

Duh. They buy them and smuggle them out of the country just like they smuggle drugs into the country.So how do they do that?


That is no reason to quit selling guns in the USA.Nice straw man.

[Yonivore]

Surely you aren't THAT stupid. They are billionaires. They can get guns anywhere they want. Central America is loaded with AK's and AR's. Do some come from the US too? Sure...so fucking what?
But, I think ChumpDumper actually hits on the real reason behind "Fast and Furious."

About the time this program was begun, Obama was commiserating with the Mexicans and advancing the narrative, but for guns going to Mexico from the United States, there wouldn't be so much violence there.

What better way to support that narrative than to insure American guns show up at Mexican crime scenes.

What better way to ensure American guns show up at Mexican crime scenes than to give narco-terrorists tax dollar to buy them, in American, and then wave buh bye as they take them back to Mexico?

I think that's the sinister objective behind "Fast and Furious." Obama needed to support his claim that American guns were the chief cause of Mexican violence and, thus, be able to start implementing gun controls domestically.

Thankfully, the program was exposed. Unfortunately, it came at the price of many lives, including that of one if his own employees.

[George Gervin's Afro]

But, I think ChumpDumper actually hits on the real reason behind "Fast and Furious."

About the time this program was begun, Obama was commiserating with the Mexicans and advancing the narrative, but for guns going to Mexico from the United States, there wouldn't be so much violence there.

What better way to support that narrative than to insure American guns show up at Mexican crime scenes.

What better way to ensure American guns show up at Mexican crime scenes than to give narco-terrorists tax dollar to buy them, in American, and then wave buh bye as they take them back to Mexico?

I think that's the sinister objective behind "Fast and Furious." Obama needed to support his claim that American guns were the chief cause of Mexican violence and, thus, be able to start implementing gun controls domestically.

Thankfully, the program was exposed. Unfortunately, it came at the price of many lives, including that of one if his own employees.

Wait a minute..I thought your side believes that more guns are needed not less. In fact your argument is that if there are more guns on the street the safer we will be...



I think that's the sinister objective behind "Fast and Furious." Obama needed to support his claim that American guns were the chief cause of Mexican violence and, thus, be able to start implementing gun controls domestically.


you're just making stuff up left and right now..

[CosmicCowboy]

But, I think ChumpDumper actually hits on the real reason behind "Fast and Furious."

About the time this program was begun, Obama was commiserating with the Mexicans and advancing the narrative, but for guns going to Mexico from the United States, there wouldn't be so much violence there.

What better way to support that narrative than to insure American guns show up at Mexican crime scenes.

What better way to ensure American guns show up at Mexican crime scenes than to give narco-terrorists tax dollar to buy them, in American, and then wave buh bye as they take them back to Mexico?

I think that's the sinister objective behind "Fast and Furious." Obama needed to support his claim that American guns were the chief cause of Mexican violence and, thus, be able to start implementing gun controls domestically.

Thankfully, the program was exposed. Unfortunately, it came at the price of many lives, including that of one if his own employees.

X2

IMHO that was the real purpose.

[Yonivore]

I am begining to agree with the dumbasses on this board..we need to start looking at the adminstration who started this prgram in 2006... who was president then? I would assume you guys who want to get to the bottom of it would want to start with who authorized it. Did Obama authorize this?

I demand answers..
Source?

By all accounts I've read, the practice of "gunwalking" wasn't instituted by the ATF until the Fall of 2009.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Will someone tell me who started the fast and furious operation?

[Yonivore]

Wait a minute..I thought your side believes that more guns are needed not less. In fact your argument is that if there are more guns on the street the safer we will be...
In the hands of law-abiding citizens. Absolutely.


...you're just making stuff up left and right now..
It's a theory. How do you explain why they didn't bother to actually track the guns?

The practice of "gunwalking" does correspond to the time when Obama was blaming Mexican violence on American guns.

[George Gervin's Afro]

X2

IMHO that was the real purpose.

of course you would.. no proof needed just someone making the claim and the idiots slurp it up like a whore ...

[George Gervin's Afro]

Will someone tell me who started the fast and furious operation?

[Yonivore]

Will someone tell me who started the fast and furious operation?
You seemed to know a few posts ago but, again; it has already been established the practice of "gunwalking" which allowed American guns to traverse into Mexico unabated was instituted by the ATF in the Fall of 2009.

That's probably the question you should be asking. Who started the "gunwalking?"

[ChumpDumper]

But, I think ChumpDumper actually hits on the real reason behind "Fast and Furious."

About the time this program was begun, Obama was commiserating with the Mexicans and advancing the narrative, but for guns going to Mexico from the United States, there wouldn't be so much violence there.

What better way to support that narrative than to insure American guns show up at Mexican crime scenes.

What better way to ensure American guns show up at Mexican crime scenes than to give narco-terrorists tax dollar to buy them, in American, and then wave buh bye as they take them back to Mexico?

I think that's the sinister objective behind "Fast and Furious." Obama needed to support his claim that American guns were the chief cause of Mexican violence and, thus, be able to start implementing gun controls domestically.

Thankfully, the program was exposed. Unfortunately, it came at the price of many lives, including that of one if his own employees.yoni doesn't care about many lives at all, and really, the gun control boogeyman never came true when the Democrats controlled all of Congress.

Yeah, it was a stupid operation, but your conspiracy theory is even more stupid.

[ElNono]

CAIR is committed to instituting Sharia law in place of the Constitution


Source?

[boutons_deux]

US is World Champion Killer and World Champion Death Peddler

U.S. Retains Title of "Lord of War" By Flooding the World With Weapons

The United States consolidated its domination of a shrinking global arms market in 2010, signing 21.3 billion dollars in new weapons orders with foreign countries, according to the latest edition of an annual report on conventional weapons transfers by the Congressional Research Service (CRS).

http://www.alternet.org/world/152541/u.s._retains_title_of_"lord_of_war"_by_flooding_th e_world_with_weapons?utm_source=feedblitz&utm_medium=FeedBlitzRss&utm_campaign=alternet

It's all about the Benjamins, not freedom and justice for all.

[hater]

:lmao "some guns come from the US"

[Yonivore]

**bump**


Will someone tell me who started the fast and furious operation?
You seemed to know a few posts ago but, again; it has already been established the practice of "gunwalking" which allowed American guns to traverse into Mexico unabated was instituted by the ATF in the Fall of 2009.

That's probably the question you should be asking. Who started the "gunwalking?"

[ChumpDumper]

**bump**


You seemed to know a few posts ago but, again; it has already been established the practice of "gunwalking" which allowed American guns to traverse into Mexico unabated was instituted by the ATF in the Fall of 2009.

That's probably the question you should be asking. Who started the "gunwalking?"An assistant director of field operations.

[CosmicCowboy]

An assistant director of field operations.

That has been proven to date. If this is really the case, why is the Justice department and the state department stonewalling the congressional investigation?

[Yonivore]

That has been proven to date. If this is really the case, why is the Justice department and the state department stonewalling the congressional investigation?
Hell, why wasn't he fired? Instead, they promoted him to an inaccessible position in Washington.

[ElNono]

That has been proven to date. If this is really the case, why is the Justice department and the state department stonewalling the congressional investigation?

Probably for the same reason they've stonewalled investigations in the past: politics. Like when the US attorneys were fired and the executive simply said they would not allow Congress to interrogate them under oath.

[DarrinS]

Too busy raiding Gibson guitar factories?

[boutons_deux]

At least all the US attorneys are not aggressively, relentlessly tracking down all those unfindable, non-existent fraudulent voters the Repugs are obsessed with.

[ChumpDumper]

That has been proven to date. If this is really the case, why is the Justice department and the state department stonewalling the congressional investigation?Define stonewalling in this case.

[CosmicCowboy]

Define stonewalling in this case.

Shit. You're kidding, right?

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/documents/2011/04/issa-threatens-contempt-proceedings-if-atf-doesnt-cooperate-with-project-gunrunner-probe.php?page=1

[ChumpDumper]

Shit. You're kidding, right?

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/documents/2011/04/issa-threatens-contempt-proceedings-if-atf-doesnt-cooperate-with-project-gunrunner-probe.php?page=1That was half a year ago.

Was anyone charged with contempt?

[CosmicCowboy]

Actually, I hold YOU in complete contempt for your pissy little arguments when the Justice Department is clearly stonewalling and I provided itemized proof. Yes they are still stonewalling and no, no one has officially been charged YET with contempt. Justice and the State Department are ducking and covering like a cat with the shits. If you don't believe me then google is your friend.

[ChumpDumper]

Actually, I hold YOU in complete contempt for your pissy little arguments when the Justice Department is clearly stonewalling and I provided itemized proof. Yes they are still stonewalling and no, no one has officially been charged YET with contempt. Justice and the State Department are ducking and covering like a cat with the shits. If you don't believe me then google is your friend.Itemized?

You gave a link to an April 20 threat that appears to have completely failed. I guess Issa is a pussy.

It's cool that you and yoni share the same conspiracy theory that this is some kind of back door gun control scheme by Obama, but I'm not sure you want to be in that company.

[Nbadan]

Actually, I hold YOU in complete contempt for your pissy little arguments when the Justice Department is clearly stonewalling and I provided itemized proof. Yes they are still stonewalling and no, no one has officially been charged YET with contempt. Justice and the State Department are ducking and covering like a cat with the shits. If you don't believe me then google is your friend.

:lol

Arrest the whole Bush administration and we'll talk...

[Yonivore]

:lol

Arrest the whole Bush administration and we'll talk...
For what?

[Nbadan]

Speaking of which..

Veterans attempt citizens arrest of Rumsfeld in Boston
Posted on 09.27.11
By David Edwards


Several members of the group Veterans for Peace were escorted out of the Old South Meeting House in Boston Monday night after they attempted a citizen’s arrest of former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

“I went down in front and looked Donald Rumsfeld in the eye and said, ‘I’m making a citizen’s arrest,’” protester Nate Goldschlag told WCVB-TV.

“He lied us into Iraq. He lied about weapons of mass destruction. He lied about Saddam Hussein being involved in 9/11.”

Three of the protesters removed from the event were with Veterans for Peace and a fourth was a member of Code Pink. One protester was arrested outside the event for allegedly using a bullhorn to assault a police officer.

Link (http://www.rawstory.com/rawreplay/2011/09/veterans-attempt-citizens-arrest-of-rumsfeld-in-boston)

I seriously think none of these guys should leave the country...

[ElNono]

For what?

Torture for starters. TARP should be on the table too, seeing how banks made out like bandits.

[Yonivore]

Torture for starters.
There wasn't any torture except for the crimes committed at Abu Ghraib which, were prosecuted.


TARP should be on the table too, seeing how banks made out like bandits.
You'd have to prosecute the Democrat Congress that passed the piece of shit law that authorized the program, as well...including, I believe, the current President.

[ElNono]

There wasn't any torture

Sure there was. The torture that the military currently calls, well, torture.


You'd have to prosecute the Democrat Congress that passed the piece of shit law that authorized the program, as well...including, I believe, the current President.

Sure.

Then we can continue with whoever authorized the secret NSA wiretaps, the snitch that outed a CIA agent, etc.

[Yonivore]

Sure there was. The torture that the military currently calls, well, torture.
If conducted by soldiers subject to the UCMJ, maybe. But, again, that is only true if the military's definition of torture includes the definition of the enhanced interrogation technique known as "waterboarding."


Sure.
Get started.


Then we can continue with whoever authorized the secret NSA wiretaps,
Not illegal either. But the NYTimes duo that exposed it are criminals.


...the snitch that outed a CIA agent, etc.
If, in fact, Valerie Plame enjoyed protection of the specific law cited, which I don't think is a slam dunk, Richard Armitage should be prosecuted.

[ElNono]

If conducted by soldiers subject to the UCMJ, maybe.

Waterboarding was torture before the US military "defined" it.
Waterboarding is still torture now under whatever the definition was then.


Not illegal either. But the NYTimes duo that exposed it are criminals.

Illegal under FISA law, passed right after Nixon to stop those abuses. That's the reason that FISA law had to be modified, and immunity granted to telecoms.

The NYTimes defended your rights. You should be thankful. And the fuckers that authorized it prosecuted.


If :blah:blah:blah

Indict them. Let's see what the court finds out. That's why we have a justice system in place, so idiots like you or Wild Cobra don't have to go "interpreting" the law and talking out of their asses.

[ElNono]

Plenty to prosecute in both administrations. Heck, I'm not even asking to skip a fair trial.

No "state secrets" bullshit, and just a fair trial, with appeals and the whole nine yards.

[Yonivore]

Waterboarding was torture before the US military "defined" it.
Waterboarding is still torture now under whatever the definition was then.

Where is the exact technique, employed by the intelligence services on the four detainees identified, defined as torture. Just cite the law that says, waterboarding, as defined and practiced by the Bush administration on four detainees, is torture or even illegal? Hell, I'd settle for a court finding that the Justice Departments' two reviews of the practice, in 2002 or 2004, finding them within the law and not constituting torture, are wrong.


Illegal under FISA law, passed right after Nixon to stop those abuses. That's the reason that FISA law had to be modified, and immunity granted to telecoms.

The NYTimes defended your rights. You should be thankful. And the fuckers that authorized it prosecuted.
It's not worth going through the entire argument, all over again, but the administration's defense is that they only authorized surveillance of communications traffic originating outside the U.S. which wasn't subject to FISA and that any purely domestic interceptions were unintentional and not authorized by the President's executive order.

No, I don't think any laws were broken, except by the New York Times.


Indict them. Let's see what the court finds out. That's why we have a justice system in place, so idiots like you or Wild Cobra don't have to go "interpreting" the law and talking out of their asses.
Indict them? I believe Richard Armitage is the only person implicated in the case.

[LnGrrrR]

Hell, why wasn't he fired? Instead, they promoted him to an inaccessible position in Washington.

Because that's what happens if you're a political elite today. Hell, look at Abu Gonzalez. That guy had no clue what was going on in his office per his testimony, and nothing happened to him. They put a private in jail for Abu Ghraib, but AFAIK, nobody in charge lost rank.

They'll find some small-time scapegoat to take the heat, like they always do.

[Yonivore]

They'll find some small-time scapegoat to take the heat, like they always do.
The two that were promoted and whisked away to Washington were small-time in comparison to the level suggested in your unrelated rant about Abu Ghraib which, by the way, did result in a General and Colonel being relieved of their commands and some military punishment.

[ElNono]

Where is the exact technique, employed by the intelligence services on the four detainees identified, defined as torture.
Just cite the law that says, waterboarding, as defined and practiced by the Bush administration on four detainees, is torture or even illegal?

Already did. Both US Code and Military law. You can use the search function.


Hell, I'd settle for a court finding that the Justice Departments' two reviews of the practice, in 2002 or 2004, finding them within the law and not constituting torture, are wrong.

That it wasn't tried doesn't make it legal. That would be a monumentally retarded argument. It would also answer the question that started this thread. Since nobody was tried, it's all legal, right? Why are you outraged?


It's not worth going through the entire argument, all over again

:lol Of course there's no argument. There would be no need for retroactive immunity if no crime was committed. The granted immunity speaks for itself.


No, I don't think any laws were broken, except by the New York Times.

Indict them? I believe Richard Armitage is the only person implicated in the case.

What you think is, frankly, irrelevant. If what I wanted was your opinion, nobody would need to be indicted. Let the professionals do their job, and see what they can find, while you keep acting like a 6 year old.

[ElNono]

Oh, and while we're indicting, lets also add the fellas at MMS (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/11/usa.oil) during the last administration.

[LnGrrrR]

The two that were promoted and whisked away to Washington were small-time in comparison to the level suggested in your unrelated rant about Abu Ghraib which, by the way, did result in a General and Colonel being relieved of their commands and some military punishment.

Relieved of command, big whoop. The private got jail time. What did the Colonel get?

http://www.military.com/NewContent/0,13190,SS_051205_Abu,00.html

Non-judicial punishment and an $8,000 fine, which according to this chart, is about a month's pay. http://www.militaryfactory.com/2005_military_pay_scale.asp

That's nothing. I've seen airmen who get DUIs that get worse than that.

At least the General got reduced a rank.



Last week, Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski was reduced to the rank of colonel and forced to relinquish command of the 800th Military Police Brigade, part of the Army Reserve.


Still, no jail time for either, no court-martial.

And it's not unrelated. Look at anyone in a position of power in the executive/political levels. Look at the bankers who control the financial strings. They get free money, no strings attached, no punishments. It's the system.

[ElNono]

And it's not unrelated. Look at anyone in a position of power in the executive/political levels. Look at the bankers who control the financial strings. They get free money, no strings attached, no punishments. It's the system.


Probably for the same reason they've stonewalled investigations in the past: politics.

:toast

[Yonivore]

Already did. Both US Code and Military law. You can use the search function.
Administration made the determination their technique did not violate the U.S. Cod and it wasn't subject to the UCMJ. Don't need to search unless you have a court case that says otherwise.


That it wasn't tried doesn't make it legal. That would be a monumentally retarded argument. It would also answer the question that started this thread. Since nobody was tried, it's all legal, right? Why are you outraged?
Certainly doesn't support your argument is was illegal, either. Maybe it wasn't tried because all the rhetoric, claiming it was, was just that - rhetoric.


:lol Of course there's no argument. There would be no need for retroactive immunity if no crime was committed. The granted immunity speaks for itself.
I don't jump to that conclusion. If I saw a bunch of rabid dogs (liberals) at the gate wanting a piece of me just for helping the government conduct surveillance -- I'd ask for immunity, as well. At the time, the whole NSA program was being declared a travesty and illegal. However, if conducted pursuant to the President's executive order, it was perfectly legal.

The problem seems to be when the telecommunications companies inadvertently captured purely domestic communications. They claim is was accidental, the administration claims it wasn't authorized in the executive order. Granting immunity seems logical to me.


What you think is, frankly, irrelevant. If what I wanted was your opinion, nobody would need to be indicted. Let the professionals do their job, and see what they can find, while you keep acting like a 6 year old.
Apparently, I'm not the only person who thinks that way. Now, get someone to tuck you into bed and read you a story.

[Yonivore]

Meanwhile, back on topic...


http://pl-mgroup-akamai.powerlineblog.com/admin/ed-assets/2011/09/ISStoonBW0928.jpg.cms_.jpeg

Related...

‘Every Single One’ Fallout: Justice Dept. in Turmoil From PJMedia Series (http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/%E2%80%98every-single-one%E2%80%99-fallout-justice-dept-in-turmoil-from-pjmedia-series/)


Following the Justice Department’s long-delayed compliance with a Freedom of Information Act request, PJMedia recently published content from the resumes of each career attorney hired to the DOJ’s Civil Rights Division under Attorney General Eric Holder. The articles were written by two former Civil Rights Division attorneys — J. Christian Adams and Hans von Spakovsky — and PJMedia Editor Richard Pollock.

The Justice Department is forbidden by federal law from hiring employees based on political affiliation. Yet the resumes revealed the following ideological breakdown among the new hires:

Leftist lawyers: 113

Moderate, non-ideological, or conservative lawyers: 0.
Hmmm....how does that happen if you follow the law and don't consider political affiliation?

Part 12 of a 12 part (and counting) series on Justice Department scandals.

The legacy media appears uninterested.

[ElNono]

Administration made the determination their technique did not violate the U.S. Cod and it wasn't subject to the UCMJ.

Administration subsequently made the determination that their technique qualified as torture.


Certainly doesn't support your argument is was illegal, either.

My argument is supported by the current reality. Ultimately my argument is that the responsible people stand on trial and let the people in charge of administering justice to do their job.

Why do you oppose justice?


I don't jump to that conclusion.

You already jumped to a conclusion, idiot.


The problem seems to be when the telecommunications companies inadvertently

There was nothing inadvertent about NSA equipment installed at telcos. Obviously, once again, you're not familiar with that you're talking about.
Ultimately, you don't have the knowledge or authority to determine what was legal or not.


Apparently, I'm not the only person who thinks that way.

Apparently, I wasn't clear the first time. What you think is irrelevant. I didn't ask for your opinion. You asked what should they be tried for, and I provided a list.

Surprised you didn't play ankle-biter with excuses for MMS... yet.

[Wild Cobra]

Why is it that when relevant questions to current events are asked to be discussed, you libtards try to throw the discussion off with unrelated tangents of the past?

Shame on you.

[George Gervin's Afro]

:lmao
Why is it that when relevant questions to current events are asked to be discussed, you libtards try to throw the discussion off with unrelated tangents of the past?

Shame on you.

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao :lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao


it's because you guys are hypocites

[LnGrrrR]

Why is it that when relevant questions to current events are asked to be discussed, you libtards try to throw the discussion off with unrelated tangents of the past?

Shame on you.

Could you be more specific?

[LnGrrrR]

Hmmm....how does that happen if you follow the law and don't consider political affiliation?

Part 12 of a 12 part (and counting) series on Justice Department scandals.

The legacy media appears uninterested.

For one, lol powerline and pajamasmedia. I'm pretty sure their idea of left-leaning is everyone that doesn't agree with them on every issue.

Second, ideological viewpoints are different from political affiliation. He's not allowed to say, "You're a Republican so I'm not hiring you" but he can say, "I don't think you're right for this job."

[Wild Cobra]

Could you be more specific?
No. I'm intentionally non specific to make people think.

[ElNono]

No. I'm intentionally non specific to make people think.

You make people speculate, not think when you bring no specifics.

smh

[boutons_deux]

More evidence that the plutocracy and bureaucracy is not held accountable for malfeasance and even outright crimes by their organizations.

Outsize Severance Continues for Executives, Even After Failed Tenures

http://199.239.138.183/h/Ucndih5oE6gOFUJ7vdXy02Y8agrylPtMTKAtA6tgZPIj6z8drL T0U2XihV4isB0TLw5DDOwoae6z-CXtlRiHHe-d--Lkb3qxtrn7sivJ3L5tEJsuL5aSA2YSNLP4RyARJvZpn3DesPFT hS0nDivLEZxdC_U*.cr

The golden goodbye has not gone away.

Just last week, Léo Apotheker was shown the door after a tumultuous 11-month run atop Hewlett-Packard. His reward? $13.2 million in cash and stock severance, in addition to a sign-on package worth about $10 million, according to a corporate filing on Thursday.

At the end of August, Robert P. Kelly was handed severance worth $17.2 million in cash and stock when he was ousted as chief executive of Bank of New York Mellon after clashing with board members and senior managers.

A few days later, Carol A. Bartz took home nearly $10 million from Yahoo after being fired from the troubled search giant.

A hallmark of the gilded era of just a few short years ago, the eye-popping severance package continues to thrive in spite of the measures put in place in the wake of the financial crisis to crack down on excessive pay.

Critics have long complained about outsize compensation packages that dwarf ordinary workers' paychecks, but they voice particular ire over pay-for-failure.

Much of Wall Street and corporate America has shifted a bigger portion of pay into longer-term stock awards and established policies to claw back bonuses.

And while fuller disclosure of exit packages several years ago has helped ratchet down the size of the biggest severance deals, efforts by shareholders and regulators to further restrict payouts have had less success.

"We repeatedly see companies' assets go out the door to reward failure," said Scott Zdrazil, the director of corporate governance for Amalgamated Bank's $11 billion Longview Fund, a labor-affiliated investment fund that sought to tighten the restrictions on severance plans at three oil companies last year.

"Investors are frustrated that boards haven't prevented such windfalls."

http://mobile.nytimes.com/article?a=848218&f=19

Just another reason why a CEO recruits friends (well-paid for their board "work") to his board.

But we never hear right-wingers here trashing rip-off pay to corporate execs, only about the joyous firing of teachers, fireman, police, union-busting, etc.

[Yonivore]

ATF Death Watch 89: 40 Fast and Furious Firearms “Found” in Dallas (http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/09/robert-farago/atf-death-watch-89-40-fast-and-furious-firearms-found-in-dallas/)
Somebody needs to go to jail.

[boutons_deux]

6000+ dead US military in Repug-phony, Repug-botched Iraq/Afgha wars.

Somebody need to go to jail.

[Yonivore]

Did our esteemed Attorney General lie to Congress?

ATF Fast and Furious: New documents show Attorney General Eric Holder was briefed in July 2010 (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20115038-10391695.html)


On May 3, 2011, Holder told a Judiciary Committee hearing, "I'm not sure of the exact date, but I probably heard about Fast and Furious for the first time over the last few weeks."
Unless "few" = 40 (10 months), I'm thinking he was being less than forthcoming in his testimony.

:corn:

Again, what was the legitimate law enforcement purpose of "Fast & Furious'" gunwalker scheme?


http://ace.mu.nu/archives/FF_p93_chart.jpg

[LnGrrrR]

Yoni, could you boil down this case for me?

[Yonivore]

Yoni, could you boil down this case for me?
The administration needs to answer why they purchased and armed narco-terrorists and then allowed them to walk the guns across the border into Mexico and elsewhere.

By the way, "Fast and Furious" is only one of two named operations (the other being "Wide Receiver" operated out of New Mexico), and possibly other unnamed operations (out of Dallas and Houston and Florida) all designed to do the same as "Fast and Furious;" allow guns to walk into criminal hands and across international borders.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

ATF Death Watch 89: 40 Fast and Furious Firearms “Found” in Dallas (http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/09/robert-farago/atf-death-watch-89-40-fast-and-furious-firearms-found-in-dallas/)
Somebody needs to go to jail.

Someone needs to be fired. it was a failed drug sting. You use the illicit goods to entrap in a sting. Thats the whole gig. The fucked up and lost the goods and didn't bring in a big fish. Attempting a failed sting is incompetence not criminal or otherwise you don't run any stings in that manner.

The democrats and the ATF have been riding the fail whale for decades.

[LnGrrrR]

The administration needs to answer why they purchased and armed narco-terrorists and then allowed them to walk the guns across the border into Mexico and elsewhere.

On its face, it certainly seems asinine. What was the government's reasoning? Were they tagging these guns to track them or something?

[Yonivore]

On its face, it certainly seems asinine. What was the government's reasoning? Were they tagging these guns to track them or something?
Apparently, they were just waiting to see where they would "end up." No, as fare as I can determine, the guns did not have any electronic tracking devices attached.

[Yonivore]

Someone needs to be fired. it was a failed drug sting. You use the illicit goods to entrap in a sting. Thats the whole gig. The fucked up and lost the goods and didn't bring in a big fish. Attempting a failed sting is incompetence not criminal or otherwise you don't run any stings in that manner.

The democrats and the ATF have been riding the fail whale for decades.
It's a bit more than a "sting" gone wrong...

Gunwalker: Under White House Control? (http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/gunwalker-under-white-house-control/?singlepage=true)

And, certainly don't take that blogger's word; follow the links provided and make your own judgement.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It's a bit more than a "sting" gone wrong...

Gunwalker: Under White House Control? (http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/gunwalker-under-white-house-control/?singlepage=true)

And, certainly don't take that blogger's word; follow the links provided and make your own judgement.

What do you think is the criminal activity. The factual evidence in the first half just says that they let the guns out of their sight which is incompetence.

I know you love the witchhunting in the second half where they intimate that the allowing of the guns accross the border was a deliberate move to get guns to them but I see no evidence of that. Thats quite an accusation along the lines of Serpico.

i like how you 'conservatives' turn on the law and order crowd so easily. Lovely.

The two party system is so dumb.

[Yonivore]

Meanwhile, in related news:

Media Silence Is Deafening About Important Gun News (http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/09/30/media-silence-is-deafening-about-important-gun-news/)


In the first six months of this year, there were 14% fewer murders in Chicago compared to the first six months of last year – back when owning handguns was illegal. It was the largest drop in Chicago’s murder rate since the handgun ban went into effect in 1982.

[Yonivore]

What do you think is the criminal activity. The factual evidence in the first half just says that they let the guns out of their sight which is incompetence.

I know you love the witchhunting in the second half where they intimate that the allowing of the guns accross the border was a deliberate move to get guns to them but I see no evidence of that. Thats quite an accusation along the lines of Serpico.

i like how you 'conservatives' turn on the law and order crowd so easily. Lovely.

The two party system is so dumb.
I suppose it's just coincidence the "gunwalking" operations (yes plural) were implemented around the time Obama's commiseration with Mexico that most of the violence there was caused by guns bought from U.S. gun dealers. I think he placed the number at 90%, according to the report.

The actual number was around 8%. Well, that's embarrassing. What to do? Start running guns into Mexico and see if you can't achieve 90%, eh?

Did you see the ATF chart I posed earlier?


http://ace.mu.nu/archives/FF_p93_chart.jpg

All those points ending in Mexico is where the guns just "ended up," presumably at a crime scene. And, that's just from "Fast and Furious." They're still balking on "Wide Receiver" and the other unnamed "gunwalking" operations.

Incompetence my ass. It was intentional.

[Yonivore]

What do you want to bet the percentage of guns bought at U.S. gun dealers and used in Mexican crimes has gone up from 8% since the inception of these "gunwalker" programs?

[George Gervin's Afro]

i see yoni is still peddling his conspiracy theory.....

[Yonivore]

i see yoni is still peddling his conspiracy theory.....
It's not my theory.

But, to be fair, the administration isn't offering any defense that would counter the theory.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Innuendo becomes fact when its a GOP tink tank that its read from in Yoni's world.

Keep on turning on the law and order crowd. Its adorable.

[Wild Cobra]

Meanwhile, in related news:

Media Silence Is Deafening About Important Gun News (http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/09/30/media-silence-is-deafening-about-important-gun-news/)
In the first six months of this year, there were 14% fewer murders in Chicago compared to the first six months of last year – back when owning handguns was illegal. It was the largest drop in Chicago’s murder rate since the handgun ban went into effect in 1982.
This is a truth that all wise Americans understand. When the criminals have to compete in a level playing field, so many more of them chicken out.

[Yonivore]

Innuendo becomes fact when its a GOP tink tank that its read from in Yoni's world.

Keep on turning on the law and order crowd. Its adorable.
I'm pretty sure the blog I linked, in turn, linked to both mainstream media reports (CBS) and official documents, so far -- if reluctantly -- released by the administration.

I ask you again, what could possibly be the legitimate law enforcement or national interest in setting up multiple "gunwalking" operations with no way to track the guns, once they left our soil?

[Yonivore]

Are More Damaging Findings from 'Fast and Furious' About to Surface? (http://nation.foxnews.com/fast-and-furious/2011/10/07/are-more-damaging-findings-fast-and-furious-about-surface)


O'REILLY: No but you know what I'm talking about here. Usually lights a fuse particularly to somebody like that at the level the White House level who actually curse at a reporter, a CBS News correspondent. That's not something that happens every day, Sharyl. So what do you think lit that fuse?

ATTKISSON: Well, I would say there have been some pretty incredible developments in the past week. Also, documents we haven't even had time to report on all of them. They are very sensitive documents and allegations going around. Many of them we haven't reported yet because we need to get more confirmation of them.

But what you see on the surface that we do report in our stories is really only a part of what may be going on and we may be reporting the future when we can get confirmation.

[ChumpDumper]

They're still translating the documents!

[Yonivore]

Irony and hypocrisy, Eric Holder embraces both in his letter to Congress...

Attorney General Eric Holder fires back on Fast & Furious (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/65456.html)


Holder also lashed out at some of the more extreme charges being leveled by Republican lawmakers, such as a statement this week by Rep. Paul Gosar (R-Ariz.) that federal officials who approved the “gun-walking” technique should be charged as accessories to murder.

“Such irresponsible and inflammatory rhetoric must be repudiated in the strongest possible terms,” Holder wrote. “Those who serves in the ranks of law enforcement are our nation’s heroes and deserve our nation’s thanks, not the disrespect that is being heaped on them by those who seek political advantage.”
Pretty rich, coming from the guy that led investigations (http://articles.latimes.com/2009/aug/25/nation/na-interrogate-prosecutor25)into the interrogation techniques employed by the CIA and intelligence services, during the Bush administration, which resulted in no deaths and preserved American lives; unlike the "gun walking" practice which led to the deaths of two American agents and hundreds of Mexican nationals - - so far.

Why are "those who serve the ranks" of national security not our nation's heroes and undeserving of our nation's thanks instead of the disrespect heaped on them by those who seek political advantage?

[ChumpDumper]

lol preserved American lives

[Yonivore]

1WaOh1ovdBg
Who's accountable for the hundreds of deaths of Mexican nationals and the two U.S. Agents?

[Yonivore]

Oh yeah, the Arizona Sheriffs are pissed too...

Arizona Sheriffs call for special prosecutor in Fast & Furious (http://volokh.com/)


Ten of Arizona’s 15 county sheriffs, including Democrats and Republicans, have called for the appointment of a federal special prosecutor in the Fast & Furious scandal.

[Yonivore]

Issa: 'Fast and furious' subpoenas issued soon (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_FAST_AND_FURIOUS_ISSA?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-10-09-16-42-32)

I hope they drag Holder's ass back before the Committee.

[boutons_deux]

Who is accountable for 6000+ of wasted US military lives and 100s of 1000s of of IRaqi and Afghani lives?

Yoni always refuses to answer that one, preferring to repeat the Repug lies.

[Yonivore]

-YtBxoQEkZ0

Is there anything this clip can't do? :lmao

[CosmicCowboy]

Thanks for the link Yoni. That was freaking hilarious!

[ElNono]

Issa: "the American people want to know"! :rolleyes

[cherylsteele]

Who is accountable for 6000+ of wasted US military lives and 100s of 1000s of of IRaqi and Afghani lives?

Yoni always refuses to answer that one, preferring to repeat the Repug lies.
So, are you saying going into Afghanistan to get rid of the Taliban was a bad thing? The 9/11 attacks were instigated from there.

That would be like us not doing anything after the Pearl Harbor according to your logic.

What would you have had us do in regards to Iraq?

[Yonivore]

So, are you saying going into Afghanistan to get rid of the Taliban was a bad thing? The 9/11 attacks were instigated from there.

That would be like us not doing anything after the Pearl Harbor according to your logic.

What would you have had us do in regards to Iraq?
It's his go to argument in all threads.

Criticize the Obama administration on a completely unrelated issue well, what about the KIA's in a legitimate war! Why don't you care about that cherylsteele.

It's bouton's only strategy.

[Wild Cobra]

Who is accountable for 6000+ of wasted US military lives and 100s of 1000s of of IRaqi and Afghani lives?

Yoni always refuses to answer that one, preferring to repeat the Repug lies.
Are you saying we furnished them with the IED's, weapons, etc?

[Yonivore]

Issa responds. I can save the Holder acolytes the trouble of having to read such a damning take down of Eric Holder by telling you he basically calls Holder a fucking liar and tells him, we'll see you in Committee.


Dear Attorney General Holder:

From the beginning of the congressional investigation into Operation Fast and Furious, the Department of Justice has offered a roving set of ever-changing explanations to justify its involvement in this reckless and deadly program. These defenses have been aimed at undermining the investigation. From the start, the Department insisted that no wrongdoing had occurred and asked Senator Grassley and me to defer our oversight responsibilities over its concerns about our purported interference with its ongoing criminal investigations. Additionally, the Department steadfastly insisted that gunwalking did not occur.

Once documentary and testimonial evidence strongly contradicted these claims, the Department attempted to limit the fallout from Fast and Furious to the Phoenix Field Division of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF). When that effort also proved unsuccessful, the Department next argued that Fast and Furious resided only within ATF itself, before eventually also assigning blame to the U.S. Attorney's Office in Arizona. All of these efforts were designed to circle the wagons around DOJ and its political appointees.

To that end, just last month, you claimed that Fast and Furious did not reach the upper levels of the Justice Department. Documents discovered through the course of the investigation, however, have proved each and every one of these claims advanced by the Department to be untrue. It appears your latest defense has reached a new low. Incredibly, in your letter from Friday you now claim that you were unaware of Fast and Furious because your staff failed to inform you of information contained in memos that were specifically addressed to you. At best, this indicates negligence and incompetence in your duties as Attorney General. At worst, it places your credibility into serious doubt.

Following the Committee's issuance of a subpoena over six months ago, I strongly believed that the Department would fully cooperate with Congress and support this investigation with all the means at its disposal. The American people deserve no less. Unfortunately, the Department's cooperation to date has been minimal. Hundreds of pages of documents that have been produced to my Committee are duplicative, and hundreds more contain substantial redactions, rendering them virtually worthless. The Department has actively engaged in retaliation against multiple whistleblowers, and has, on numerous occasions, attempted to disseminate false and misleading information to the press in an attempt to discredit this investigation.

Your letter dated October 7 is deeply disappointing. Instead of pledging all necessary resources to assist the congressional investigation in discovering the truth behind the fundamentally flawed Operation Fast and Furious, your letter instead did little but obfuscate, shift blame, berate, and attempt to change the topic away from the Department's responsibility in the creation, implementation, and authorization of this reckless program. You claim that, after months of silence, you "must now address these issues" over Fast and Furious because of the harmful discourse of the past few days. Yet, the only major development of these past few days has been the release of multiple documents showing that you and your senior staff had been briefed, on numerous occasions, about Fast and Furious.

The Mexican Cartels

A month after you became Attorney General, you spoke of the danger of the Mexican drug cartels, and the Sinaloa cartel in particular. The cartels, you said, "are lucrative, they are violent, and they are operated with stunning planning and precision." You promised that under your leadership "these cartels will be destroyed." You vowed that the Department of Justice would "continue to work with [its] counterparts in Mexico, through information sharing, training and mutual cooperation to jointly fight these cartels, both in Mexico and the United States."

Under your leadership, however, Operation Fast and Furious has proven these promises hollow. According to one agent, Operation Fast and Furious "armed the cartel. It is disgusting." Fast and Furious simply served as a convenient means for dangerous cartels to acquire upwards of 2,000 assault-style weapons. On top of that, the Government of Mexico was not informed about Fast and Furious. In fact, DOJ and ATF officials actively engaged in hiding information about Fast and Furious from not only Mexican officials, but also U.S. law enforcement officials operating in Mexico for fear that they would inform their Mexican counterparts. This strategy is inapposite and contradicts the promises you made to the American people.

Your September 7, 2011 Statement

On September 7, 2011, you said that "[t]he notion that [Fast and Furious] reaches into the upper levels of the Justice Department is something that at this point I don't think is supported by the facts and I think once we examine it and once the facts are revealed we'll see that's not the case." Unfortunately, the facts directly contradict this statement.

Lanny Breuer, the Assistant Attorney General for the Criminal Division, clearly a member of the Department's senior leadership, knew about Fast and Furious as early as March 2010. In fact, I have learned that the amount of detail shared with Breuer's top deputies about Fast and Furious is simply astounding.

For example, Manuel Celis-Acosta was the "biggest fish" of the straw purchasing ring in Phoenix. From the time the investigation started in September 2009 until March 15, 2010, Manuel Celis-Acosta acquired at least 852 firearms valued at around $500,000 through straw purchasers. Yet in 2009, Celis-Acosta reported an Arizona taxable income of only $15,475. Between September 2009 and late January 2010, 139 of these firearms were recovered, 81 in Mexico alone. Some of these firearms were recovered less than 24 hours after they were bought.

This information, and hundreds of pages worth of additional information, was included in highly detailed wiretap applications sent for authorization to Breuer's top deputies. It is my understanding, the Department applied to the United States District Court for the District of Arizona for numerous wire taps from March 2010 to July 2010. These wire tap applications were reviewed and approved by several Deputy Assistant Attorney Generals, including Kenneth A. Blanco, John C. Keeney, and Jason M. Weinstein. Breuer's top deputies approved these wiretap applications to be used against individuals associated with the known drug cartels. As I understand it, the wire tap applications contain rich detail of the reckless operational tactics being employed by your agents in Phoenix. Although Breuer and his top deputies were informed of the operational details and tactics of Fast and Furious, they did nothing to stop the program. In fact, on a trip to Mexico Breuer trumpeted Fast and Furious as a promising investigation.

Gary Grindler, the then-Deputy Attorney General and currently your Chief of Staff, received an extremely detailed briefing on Operation Fast and Furious on March 12, 2010. In this briefing, Grindler learned such minutiae as the number of times that Uriel Patino, a straw purchaser on food stamps who ultimately acquired 720 firearms, went in to a cooperating gun store and the amount of guns that he had bought. When former Acting ATF Director Ken Melson, a career federal prosecutor, learned similar information, he became sick to his stomach:

I had pulled out all Patino's -- and ROIs is, I'm sorry, report of investigation -- and you know, my stomach being in knots reading the number of times he went in and the amount of guns that he bought. Transcribed interview of Acting ATF Director Kenneth Melson at 42.

At the time of his briefing in March of last year, Grindler knew that Patino had purchased 313 weapons and paid for all of them in cash. Unlike Melson, Grindler clearly saw nothing wrong with this. If Grindler had had the sense to shut this investigation down right then, he could have prevented the purchase of an additional 407 weapons by Patino alone. Instead, Grindler did nothing to stop the program.

Following this briefing, it is clear that Grindler did one of two things. Either, he alerted you to the name and operational details of Fast and Furious, in which case your May 3, 2011 testimony in front of Congress was false; or, he failed to inform you of the name and the operational details of Fast and Furious, in which case Grindler engaged in gross dereliction of his duties as Acting Deputy Attorney General. It is fair to infer from the fact that Grindler remains as your Chief of Staff that he did not engage in gross dereliction of his duties and told you about the program as far back as March of 2010.

In the summer of 2010, at the latest, you were undoubtedly informed about Fast and Furious. On at least five occasions you were told of the connection between Fast and Furious and a specific Mexican cartel – the very cartel that you had vowed to destroy. You were informed that Manuel Celis-Acosta and his straw purchasers were responsible for the purchase of 1,500 firearms that were then supplied to Mexican drug trafficking cartels. Yet, you did nothing to stop this program.

You failed to own up to your responsibility to safeguard the American public by hiding behind "[a]ttorneys in [your] office and the Office of the Deputy Attorney General," who you now claim did not bring this information to your attention. Holder Letter, supra note 1. As a result of your failure to act on these memos sent to you, nearly 500 additional firearms were purchased under Fast and Furious.

The facts simply do not support any claim that Fast and Furious did not reach the highest levels of the Justice Department. Actually, Fast and Furious did reach the ultimate authority in the Department – you.

Your May 3, 2011 Statement

On May 3, 2011, I asked you directly when you first knew about the operation known as Fast and Furious. You responded directly, and to the point, that you weren't "sure of the exact date, but [you] probably heard about Fast and Furious for the first time over the last few weeks." This statement, made before Congress, has proven to be patently untrue. Documents released by the Department just last week showed that you received at least seven memos about Fast and Furious starting as early as July 2010.

In your letter Friday, you blamed your staff for failing to inform you about Operation Fast and Furious when they reviewed the memos sent to you last summer. Your staff, therefore, was certainly aware of Fast and Furious over a year ago. Lanny Breuer was aware of Fast and Furious as early as March 2010, and Gary Grindler was also aware of Fast and Furious as early as March 2010. Given this frequency of high level involvement with Fast and Furious as much as a year prior to your May 3, 2011 testimony, it simply is not believable that you were not briefed on Fast and Furious until a few weeks before your testimony. At the very least, you should have known about Fast and Furious well before then. The current paper trail, which will only grow more robust as additional documents are discovered, creates the strong perception that your statement in front of Congress was less than truthful.

The February 4, 2011 Letter

Perhaps the most disturbing aspect of this intransigence is that the Department of Justice has been lying to Congress ever since the inquiry into Fast and Furious began. On February 4, 2011, Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich wrote that "ATF makes every effort to interdict weapons that have been purchased illegally and prevent their transport into Mexico." This letter, vetted by both the senior ranks of ATF as well as the Office of the Deputy Attorney General, is a flat-out lie.

As we understand it, in March 2010, top deputies to Lanny Breuer were informed that law enforcement officers intercepted calls that demonstrated that Manuel Celis-Acosta was conspiring to purchase and transport firearms for the purpose of trafficking the firearms from the United States into Mexico. Not only was ATF aware of this information, but so was the Drug Enforcement Administration and the Federal Bureau of Investigation. This information was shared with the Criminal Division. All of these organizations are components of the Department of Justice, and they were all aware of the illegal purchase of firearms and their eventual transportation into Mexico.

These firearms were not interdicted. They were not stopped. Your agents allowed these firearms purchases to continue, sometimes even monitoring them in person, and within days some of these weapons were being recovered in Mexico. Despite widespread knowledge within its senior ranks that this practice was occurring, when asked on numerous occasions about the veracity of this letter, the Department has shockingly continued to stand by its false statement of February 4, 2011.

Mr. Attorney General, you have made numerous statements about Fast and Furious that have eventually been proven to be untrue. Your lack of trustworthiness while speaking about Fast and Furious has called into question your overall credibility as Attorney General. The time for deflecting blame and obstructing our investigation is over. The time has come for you to come clean to the American public about what you knew about Fast and Furious, when you knew it, and who is going to be held accountable for failing to shut down a program that has already had deadly consequences, and will likely cause more casualties for years to come.

Operation Fast and Furious was the Department's most significant gun trafficking case. It related to two of your major initiatives – destroying the Mexican cartels and reducing gun violence on both sides of the border. On your watch, it went spectacularly wrong. Whether you realize yet or not, you own Fast and Furious. It is your responsibility.

Sincerely,

Darrell Issa

Chairman

####


http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6071/6087446034_81aa738580_z.jpg

[ChumpDumper]

yoni's bluster is usually inversely proportional to the actual impact of whatever he's ranting about.

[ElNono]

Link (http://www.scribd.com/doc/67933221/Eric-Holder-Fast-and-Furious) to Holder's letter to the Commission on Oct 7. Since we're only getting one side of the story here, I figured we'll add the other side.

[Yonivore]

Seriously, why does Obama keep him around?

Eric Holder, Obama’s albatross (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/eric-holder-obamas-albatross/2011/10/10/gIQA5u8IaL_story.html)

It's adding up.

[ElNono]

Reminds me of Alberto Gonzales or Donald Rumsfeld... when the president says "complete confidence" start packing your shit up...

[boutons_deux]

batshit ideological Yoni joined by batshit crazy bitch Geller

Geller Calls For Impeachment Based On Gunwalker Myths

The Recovery Act funded Project Gunrunner operations, but not in Phoenix. Holder's speech references Project Gunrunner, but not Fast and Furious.

Indeed, Fast and Furious was not begun until fall 2009, months after Holder's comment.

Even right-wing bloggers have pointed out that people making this conflation are wrong. But Geller apparently can't be bothered to fact-check.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/201110120010?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+MediaMattersForAmerica-CountyFair+%28Media+Matters+for+America+-+County+Fair%29

[Yonivore]

FARAGO: Gunwalker is only the tip of a scandal iceberg (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/oct/12/gunwalker-is-only-the-tip-of-a-scandal-iceberg/)


Obama administration-approved black ops in Mexico more extensive than known

For one thing, the ATF didn’t “lose” some 2,000 firearms to Mexican gun smugglers. The bureau intentionally allowed firearms to “walk” from U.S. gun stores to members of the Sinaloa drug cartel. For another, Fast and Furious is only one spoke in an entire wheel of extralegal intrigue. For example:

Mr. Issa’s subpoena demands all Justice Department documents “referring or relating to the murder of Immigrations and Customs Enforcement Agent Jaime Zapata, including any correspondence outlining the details of Zapata’s mission at the time he was murdered.”

Zapata’s assassination didn’t receive nearly the publicity afforded U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry - despite the fact that both men died at the hands of drug thugs wielding ATF-enabled weapons. But Zapata’s case is the more potentially revealing of the two.

In February, cartel members stopped Zapata’s car as he drove from Monterrey to Mexico City. Thanks to his partner, Victor Avila (who survived the attack), we know Zapata’s last words: “We’re Americans. We’re diplomats.”

Zapata was not a diplomat but he was on some sort of diplomatic mission. According to both Mexican and American authorities, Zapata’s killers belonged to the Los Zetas drug cartel. Given accusations that the U.S. government has been supporting the Zetas’ deadly enemy - the Sinaloa cartel, recipients of Fast and Furious firearms - Zapata’s death could be directly related to America’s covert policy to choose sides in the “war on drugs.”
Damn! Is Mexico the third country Obama has invaded without Congressional authority?

I guess it's good to be the King.

[ElNono]

yoni NOW is mad that the government is secretive...

[Winehole23]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-fast-furious-20120322,0,3334424.story

[TeyshaBlue]

Whoops.