Spurfan needs to let go of their sentimental/nostalgic attachment to David Robinson..

[midnightpulp]

...and be realistic about his status among other NBA greats.

Reading that "Top 100 players" players thread, some Spurs fans are starting to sound like disgruntled Jazz fans when they try to argue that Karl Malone is the greater player than Tim Duncan.

Let me start out with a disclaimer by saying that David Robinson is one of my favorite players of all-time, possibly the most athletic 7 footer we've ever seen, and easily a top 10 regular season player in history. But the reason he'll never get the respect his more devoted fans think he deserves is not because he failed to win a championship as the main guy (anyone with an IQ above 80 should understand that championships are team accomplishments), or because he was a victim of rewritten history, or because his most notable playoff moment was being thoroughly outplayed in his MVP season by Hakeem Olajuwon. It's because, year after year, even prior to the '95 Western Conference Finals, he never matched his regular season brilliance in the post-season.

Take the '93 WC Semis for example. The Spurs gave up decent 4th quarter leads in two straight games, the last of which concluded with a Barkley game winner that closed down Hemisphere Arena. In games 5 and 6, Robinson scored 24 and 22 points on .488 shooting. Those are simply not acceptable numbers for a player considered the best center in the league at the time, and especially against a team whose best interior defender was Oliver Miller.

Moving on to the '94 first round matchup with the Jazz. David was the regular season scoring champion and simply a machine that year on the offense end. Having homecourt advantage, the Spurs were heavy favorites against the Jazz. Robinson followed up his regular season dominance with a tepid 20 points-per-game average on a terrible .411 shooting percentage, including a truly abysmal 2-14 outing in a game 2. And like the Suns the year before, the Jazz had an average interior defense. This should've been Robinson's series to shine.

'95. We know what happened.

'96. After destroying the Suns in the first round, Robinson massively under performed in the Semis against the Jazz, including two straight 11 point games.

It's not an insult to David Robinson for him to be ranked anywhere from 25-30 on any given all-time greats lists. Nor is it an insult for Dirk to be ranked ahead of him.

Here's a thought experiment: Exchange Dirk for David on the '06 Mavs. Do any Spurs fans legitimately think a David Robinson led Mavs team beats San Antonio in the Western Conference Semifinals?

[DPG21920]

I think that in their careers if you swap Dirk with David, the Spurs are worse and the Mavs are better, yes.

[TD 21]

It's not an insult to David Robinson for him to be ranked anywhere from 25-30 on any given all-time greats lists. Nor is it an insult for Dirk to be ranked ahead of him.

I was with you up until this. Robinson's in the high-teens - early-twenties. And it absolutely is an insult for Nowitzki to be ranked ahead of him.

[midnightpulp]

I was with you up until this. Robinson's in the high-teens - early-twenties. And it absolutely is an insult for Nowitzki to be ranked ahead of him.

Why?

Even when you take away Robinson's non-prime years, Dirk's playoffs stats are still better.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Plus there's the part where Dirk never traded a chance at a championship away just so he could chase his teammate around with a bible.

[JayTheClown]

Why?

Even when you take away Robinson's non-prime years, Dirk's playoffs stats are still better.

Defense Defense Defense

[midnightpulp]

Defense Defense Defense

But as stretch argued, Dirk's impact on the offensive end is greater than David' impact on the defensive end. And besides, once Rodman came along, it took an immense amount of pressure off David on the defensive end, enabling him to go wild offensively. So in the 94 and 95 seasons, David's defensive role was significantly reduced.

[Koolaid_Man]

...and be realistic about his status among other NBA greats.

Reading that "Top 100 players" players thread, some Spurs fans are starting to sound like disgruntled Jazz fans when they try to argue that Karl Malone is the greater player than Tim Duncan.

Let me start out with a disclaimer by saying that David Robinson is one of my favorite players of all-time, possibly the most athletic 7 footer we've ever seen, and easily a top 10 regular season player in history. But the reason he'll never get the respect his more devoted fans think he deserves is not because he failed to win a championship as the main guy (anyone with an IQ above 80 should understand that championships are team accomplishments), or because he was a victim of rewritten history, or because his most notable playoff moment was being thoroughly outplayed in his MVP season by Hakeem Olajuwon. It's because, year after year, even prior to the '95 Western Conference Finals, he never matched his regular season brilliance in the post-season.

Take the '93 WC Semis for example. The Spurs gave up decent 4th quarter leads in two straight games, the last of which concluded with a Barkley game winner that closed down Hemisphere Arena. In games 5 and 6, Robinson scored 24 and 22 points on .488 shooting. Those are simply not acceptable numbers for a player considered the best center in the league at the time, and especially against a team whose best interior defender was Oliver Miller.

Moving on to the '94 first round matchup with the Jazz. David was the regular season scoring champion and simply a machine that year on the offense end. Having homecourt advantage, the Spurs were heavy favorites against the Jazz. Robinson followed up his regular season dominance with a tepid 20 points-per-game average on a terrible .411 shooting percentage, including a truly abysmal 2-14 outing in a game 2. And like the Suns the year before, the Jazz had an average interior defense. This should've been Robinson's series to shine.

'95. We know what happened.

'96. After destroying the Suns in the first round, Robinson massively under performed in the Semis against the Jazz, including two straight 11 point games.

It's not an insult to David Robinson for him to be ranked anywhere from 25-30 on any given all-time greats lists. Nor is it an insult for Dirk to be ranked ahead of him.

Here's a thought experiment: Exchange Dirk for David on the '06 Mavs. Do any Spurs fans legitimately think a David Robinson led Mavs team beats San Antonio in the Western Conference Semifinals?


I could fucking care less...:hat

[TD 21]

Why?

Even when you take away Robinson's non-prime years, Dirk's playoffs stats are still better.

You mean, Nowitzki scored slightly more and did so slightly more efficiently. He sure didn't rebound, block shots or play defense at anywhere near the same rate. Funny how the only time those things don't matter is when they're applied to Nowitzki. No other player get's a free pass in those areas, no matter how good their offense is.

One clearly biased, defensive Mavs fan claims "Nowitzki's offense trumps Robinson's defense" and now it's the gospel? Even if it were true, Robinson was close enough to Nowitzki offensively, that the fact that he was vastly superior in almost every other area of the game gives him the edge. And actually, based on plenty of people's logic on this board, doesn't the fact that Robinson has two higher single season scoring averages than Nowitzki, automatically make him better offensively? Or does that only apply when it's convenient?

[lefty]

David was a pussy

[Koolaid_Man]

David was a pussy

now you're speaking my language....:lol

[lefty]

now you're speaking my language....:lol

Kobe is a pussy too

[midnightpulp]

You mean, Nowitzki scored slightly more and did so slightly more efficiently. He sure didn't rebound, block shots or play defense at anywhere near the same rate. Funny how the only time those things don't matter is when they're applied to Nowitzki. No other player get's a free pass in those areas, no matter how good their offense is.

One clearly biased, defensive Mavs fan claims "Nowitzki's offense trumps Robinson's defense" and now it's the gospel? Even if it were true, Robinson was close enough to Nowitzki offensively, that the fact that he was vastly superior in almost every other area of the game gives him the edge. And actually, based on plenty of people's logic on this board, doesn't the fact that Robinson has two higher single season scoring averages than Nowitzki, automatically make him better offensively? Or does that only apply when it's convenient?

But not in the post-season. If regular season David consistently showed up in the playoffs, he shits all over Dirk. But that was never the case. No scoring champ should go 20 and 10 on .411 against Felton Spencer. And yes, you can counter that no MVP should get fucked by the 8th seeded Golden State Warriors, but Dirk had a great post-season run the year before, as well as plenty of other strong performances. Robinson didn't have one great season playoff campaign in his entire career. Not one.

[stretch]

You mean, Nowitzki scored slightly more and did so slightly more efficiently. He sure didn't rebound, block shots or play defense at anywhere near the same rate. Funny how the only time those things don't matter is when they're applied to Nowitzki. No other player get's a free pass in those areas, no matter how good their offense is.

lmao i still dont get where this idea that dirk doesnt rebound comes from

funny that he is one of like 4 people ever to average 25 and 10 in their entire playoff careers, yet all he does is score, and apparently isnt even that good at that according to gnsf

[stretch]

But not in the post-season. If regular season David consistently showed up in the playoffs, he shits all over Dirk.

this right here

and that is a result of either him simply not being nearly as good as dirk offensively (as gnsf tries to claim he is nearly on par or superior :lmao), or being a flat out choker

[Phenomanul]

Why?

Even when you take away Robinson's non-prime years, Dirk's playoffs stats are still better.

Simply because Dirk's teams have always been stacked... you know with Mark Cuban's open wallet and all... (Dallas consistently had one of the highest salaries throughout the past decade)

David was a one man team, constantly doubled and triple teamed in every playoff series... unlike all other super star teams where this also happened, the Spurs' casts never made them pay for using that strategy against them...

Double Hakeem during their 2-Peat... the 3-pt bombers made you pay...

Double Shaq during that Lakers first three peat... Kobe goes bananas... or the 3-pt bombers made you pay...

Double Duncan during our recent contender run... Manu or Parker goes bananas... or the 3-pt bombers made you pay...

Double Nowitzki during their recent contender run... Finley/Nash/Terry goes bananas... or the 3-pt bombers made you pay...

see the trend?

Double Robinson prior to his injury in the playoffs... the rest of the team shriveled up... Strategy, keep doubling him...

[stretch]

:lmao

suddenly sean elliott and other spurs players suck ass

funny how spurfan loves to twist that kind of shit to be convenient to their arguments

when arguing for timmy > kobe, they are quick to point out that timmy had no one on par with Pau at his side

then when it comes to the greatness of the spurs, suddenly manu > kobe in spurfan eyes

give it a break, faggots.

:lmao

[stretch]

and also funny how much spurfan tries to claim that terry completely sucks all kinds of ass and is a useless piece of shit, and nash is massively overrated and parker >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nash in every facet of the game, but suddenly they are capable of going bananas and great players

:rolleyes

[stretch]

:lmao spurfan

"sean elliott, vinny del negro, and chuck person couldnt shoot 3s for shit!!!! robinsons teams sucked, despite being top 10 in the league for several seasons on both offensive and defensive efficiency, it was all david robinson defending 5 on 1 and scoring 1 on 5!!!!!!!!"

[Phenomanul]

Mav fan speculation... If you can find where I made any of those arguments (like Manu > Kobe, or Parker > Nash) feel free to keep going...

Completely neglect the Cuban factor at your own demise...

[midnightpulp]

Simply because Dirk's teams have always been stacked... you know with Mark Cuban's open wallet and all... (Dallas consistently had one of the highest salaries throughout the past decade)

David was a one man team, constantly doubled and triple teamed in every playoff series... unlike all other super star teams where this also happened, the Spurs' casts never made them pay for using that strategy against them...

Double Hakeem during their 2-Peat... the 3-pt bombers made you pay...

Double Shaq during that Lakers first three peat... Kobe goes bananas... or the 3-pt bombers made you pay...

Double Duncan during our recent contender run... Manu or Parker goes bananas... or the 3-pt bombers made you pay...

Double Nowitzki during their recent contender run... Finley/Nash/Terry goes bananas... or the 3-pt bombers made you pay...

see the trend?

Double Robinson prior to his injury in the playoffs... the rest of the team shriveled up... Strategy, keep doubling him...

Dirk's teams have never "always been stacked." Their high payroll is due to the fact they overpay everyone. How much was Dampier making again? How much they pay a shitty Antoine Walker?

And Spurfan trying to rewrite history by stating Robinson didn't have any help is the same thing Jazzfan does with Malone.

[Magua]

Chris Webber was a more clutch playoff performer than David Robinson.

True story.

[stretch]

Mav fan speculation... If you can find where I made any of those arguments (like Manu > Kobe, or Parker > Nash) feel free to keep going...

Completely neglect the Cuban factor at your own demise...

yes, paying Tariq Abdul-Wahad $6mil a year to sit on the bench and do nothing, or paying Erick Dampier $10mil a year to average 6/7 automatically means money buys unmatchable talent and championships

:rolleyes

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Spurfan's "high payroll" argument is almost a new low for them

[stretch]

as an all-around basketball player, i will say 10 times out of 10, David Robinson was better. he was a more complete player than Dirk ever became.

but if I wanted to pick one guy to lead a team of role players, i will pick Dirk 10 times out of 10 over Robinson.

[Phenomanul]

Malone had another all-time great playing alongside him his entire career, and arguably one of the best coaches of all time calling the shots...

I didn't realize that Sean Elliott was an all-time great (at least not 'til his MDM shot in '99)... but please, remind us how many All-NBA teams Del Negro, Avery or Elliott made? While you're at it, please remind us how many game winning 3 point daggers our perimeter cast made to seal a playoff game... And Rodman for all of his rebounding tenacity went crazy at the most inopportune moment...

I mean in your examples above you neglect the influence of such supporting casts... IIRCt prior to Barkley's basket, Dan Marjle had nailed two back-to-back three pointers to get them close enough... no one ever did that for David prior to '96. Instead you have a series of clutch miscues (Strickland's over the head pass to nowhere in a GM 7 comes to mind)....

eh... whatever...

Look, you're entitled to your opinion... but don't denigrate the legacy of your "alleged favorite player" simply because you happen to see a parallelism that isn't there...

[Phenomanul]

Malone had another all-time great playing alongside him his entire career, and arguably one of the best coaches of all time calling the shots...

I didn't realize that Sean Elliott was an all-time great (at least not 'til his MDM shot in '99)... but please, remind us how many All-NBA teams Del Negro, Avery or Elliott made? While you're at it, please remind us how many game winning 3 point daggers our perimeter cast made to seal a playoff game... And Rodman for all of his rebounding tenacity went crazy at the most inopportune moment...

I mean in your examples above you neglect the influence of such supporting casts... IIRCt prior to Barkley's basket, Dan Marjle had nailed two back-to-back three pointers to get them close enough... no one ever did that for David prior to '96. Instead you have a series of clutch miscues (Strickland's over the head pass to nowhere in a GM 7 comes to mind)....

eh... whatever...

Look, you're entitled to your opinion... but don't denigrate the legacy of your "alleged favorite player" simply because you happen to see a parallelism that isn't there...

[HarlemHeat37]

Both Robinson and Dirk are overrated on SpursTalk, tbh, IMHO..both are underrated by the media and the rest of NBA fans IMO..

[Phenomanul]

yes, paying Tariq Abdul-Wahad $6mil a year to sit on the bench and do nothing, or paying Erick Dampier $10mil a year to average 6/7 automatically means money buys unmatchable talent and championships

:rolleyes

MVP caliber players like Nash don't ring a bell...

Michael Finley?

Jason Terry (as much as I abhor him) is still an all-star player, and can come up big on the big stage...

Jason Kidd?

[stretch]

:lmao also funny is spurfans that wanna bring up all the stats on why Robinson shits on Dirk, then suddenly when flipping to playoff stats, you see how badly Dirk shits on robinson. and all this despite Dirks first several adjustment years to the NBA, while he was still developing, as opposed to Robinson who hit the ground running when he entered.

interesting, Dirk shits on D-Rob on TS%, eFG%, DEFENSIVE REBOUNDING %, turnover %, and win shares. so basically David > Dirk in the regular season, but Dirk > David in the post season. funny, that spurfan of all people is taking the regular season performer over the post season performer, after years and years off the bullshit about "regular season means nothing mavfan!!! FOUR FUCKING RINGS FAGGOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

go fist yourself you faggot spurfans

:lmao

[stretch]

MVP caliber players like Nash don't ring a bell...

Michael Finley?

Jason Terry (as much as I abhor him) is still an all-star player, and can come up big on the big stage...

hmmm... Nash who was never remotely close to being considered an MVP type player until put in the right system

Finley who was clearly on the downside of his career as Dirk started coming into his own

Jason Terry who has never sniffed an all-star team, and was shat on here for years by spurfans as being one of if not the biggest choker in the NBA, suddenly is a guy who comes up big on the big stage??? :wow

[stretch]

Look, you're entitled to your opinion... but don't denigrate the legacy of your "alleged favorite player" simply because you happen to see a parallelism that isn't there...

:lmao

of all people to be saying this


:lmao :lmao :lmao

[stretch]

Jason Kidd?

LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

need i bring up the endless number of threads around here of how garbage of a pickup this was, how he brought absolutely nothing to the mavs, completely washed up, and was <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Devin "Jesus Christ" Harris?

riiiiiiiiight

[midnightpulp]

Malone had another all-time great playing alongside him his entire career, and arguably one of the best coaches of all time calling the shots...

I didn't realize that Sean Elliott was an all-time great (at least not 'til his MDM shot in '99)... but please, remind us how many All-NBA teams Del Negro, Avery or Elliott made? While you're at it, please remind us how many game winning 3 point daggers our perimeter cast made to seal a playoff game... And Rodman for all of his rebounding tenacity went crazy at the most inopportune moment...

I mean in your examples above you neglect the influence of such supporting casts... IIRCt prior to Barkley's basket, Dan Marjle had nailed two back-to-back three pointers to get them close enough... no one ever did that for David prior to '96. Instead you have a series of clutch miscues (Strickland's over the head pass to nowhere in a GM 7 comes to mind)....

eh... whatever...

Look, you're entitled to your opinion... but don't denigrate the legacy of your "alleged favorite player" simply because you happen to see a parallelism that isn't there...

David is one of my faves, but I'm realistic concerning his legacy.

[dirk4mvp]

do spurfans as a collective whole realize how pathetic they look trying to backpedal and call Dirk's supporting cast anything other than a bunch of thuggish mental midgets since he rang? It's like JET went from being a nut punching turtle headed faggot to GOAT 2nd fiddle overnight.

[Phenomanul]

:lmao

of all people to be saying this


:lmao :lmao :lmao


What is that supposed to mean?? I'm not here trying to denigrate Nowiztki...

Simply giving 5-0 his due...

I seriously doubt you even saw him play in his prime... I was an avid Spurs fan from the first game he played... and caught every televised game since...

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

And Rodman for all of his rebounding tenacity went crazy at the most inopportune moment...
Rodman went crazy because he got fed up with being chased around with a bible all fuckin season, that's D-Rob's fault.

[Monostradamus]

:lmao

Spurs fans bringing up Before His Prime Nash and Past His Prime Kidd as examples that Dirk has played with nothing but stacked teams is fucking stupid.

Dale Ellis/Terry Cummings/Sean Elliott were all 20+ PPG scorers. Nevermind when their primes correlated with D-Rob's. Dirk would kill to have that many weapons surrounding him!

[Monostradamus]

I seriously doubt you even saw him play in his prime... I was an avid Spurs fan from the first game he played... and caught every televised game since...

Shit, I'm all out of gold stars but I'll stick one on your hand as soon as I get some more!

[Nathan89]

I think that in their careers if you swap Dirk with David, the Spurs are worse and the Mavs are better, yes.

This is a solid point, IMHO.

Some people want to bring up the fact that Dirk got a ring as the main man and David never did. The fact is that Dirk would have never got a ring on those Spurs teams. It is up for debate though if David would have got a ring with the Mavs. I will say David would have probably won the ring back in 2006 with the Mavs. Of course I wouldn't say he would win it this year but then again I would have never predicted Dirk would win the ring this year. A line-up of David and Tyson would be pretty impenetrable though, so you just don't know.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

:lmao

Spurs fans bringing up Before His Prime Nash and Past His Prime Kidd as examples that Dirk has played with nothing but stacked teams is fucking stupid.

Dale Ellis/Terry Cummings/Sean Elliott were all 20+ PPG scorers. Nevermind when their primes correlated with D-Rob's. Dirk would kill to have that many weapons surrounding him!
Don't forget Rod motherfucking Strickland!

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

It is up for debate though if David would have got a ring with the Mavs. I will say David would have probably won the ring back in 2006 with the Mavs. Of course I wouldn't say he would win it this year but then again I would have never predicted Dirk would win the ring this year. A line-up of David and Tyson would be pretty impenetrable though, so you just don't know.
This is one of the dumbest basketball takes I've ever read.

[Monostradamus]

Don't forget Rod motherfucking Strickland!

And you'd think D-Rob and the Spurs wouldn't be stupid enough to tank a season with Dominique Motherfucking Wilkins in the house. STAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACKED.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

And you'd think D-Rob and the Spurs wouldn't be stupid enough to tank a season with Dominique Motherfucking Wilkins in the house. STAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACKED.
THAT nigga 'NIQUE!

And Vernon Maxwell :wow


STAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACKED

[Monostradamus]

Some people want to bring up the fact that Dirk got a ring as the main man and David never did.

Yep, facts are facts.


The fact is that Dirk would have never got a ring on those Spurs teams.

That's not a fact, that's speculation.


It is up for debate though if David would have got a ring with the Mavs. I will say David would have probably won the ring back in 2006 with the Mavs. Of course I wouldn't say he would win it this year but then again I would have never predicted Dirk would win the ring this year. A line-up of David and Tyson would be pretty impenetrable though, so you just don't know.

And more speculation. You can speculate all you want, but I'll stick to facts.

Dirk 1
D-Rob 0

[Phenomanul]

:lmao Mav krew unleashed... must be troll-hour...

[Monostradamus]

:LOL Mav krew unleashed... must be troll-hour...

:lmao you're the fucking moron who claims Dirk's played with nothing but stacked teams because he had 37 year old Jason Kidd by his side.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Idk what's more retarded, Spurfan's $90,000,000 payroll argument, or the claim that the 2011 Mavs with David Robinson instead of Dirk could have also won a championship.

[Nathan89]

This is one of the dumbest basketball takes I've ever read.

:lol shitty poster

Anyways I given Dirk props on numerous occasions. The fact is he would have never won shit on those Spurs teams that David had. So it's bullshit to knock David for not winning a ring as the main man.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

How is your claim that Dirk would have never won with those teams a "fact"

[Nathan89]

Yep, facts are facts.



That's not a fact, that's speculation.



And more speculation. You can speculate all you want, but I'll stick to facts.

Dirk 1
D-Rob 0

Not fact but it's pretty obvious. Do you speculate otherwise?

Actually those aren't facts
Dirk 1
D-Rob 2

[Nathan89]

How is your claim that Dirk would have never won with those teams a "fact"

Yes it's not a fact but I think it's pretty obvious. Do you think he would have won a ring on those teams?

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

IMO Dirk could have easily won a championship with Dominique Wilkins and Sean Elliott.

[Veterinarian.]

Not fact but it's pretty obvious. Do you speculate otherwise?

Actually those aren't facts
Dirk 1
D-Rob 2

Resort to ring smack when you get fucked up the ass in an argument :lmao

You've just showed the forum that you're just as shitty of a poster as cully

[stretch]

The fact is he would have never won shit on those Spurs teams that David had.

proof?

link?

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Plus if Dirk had Dennis Rodman as a teammate, he wouldn't have alienated Rodman by chasing him around with a bible. He would have been grateful for the 15 rebounds per game Rodman got for his team and he would have been OK with Rodman leaving his house on the weekend.

[Veterinarian.]

Plus if Dirk had Dennis Rodman as a teammate, he wouldn't have alienated Rodman by chasing him around with a bible. He would have been grateful for the 15 rebounds per game Rodman got for his team and he would have been OK with Rodman leaving his house on the weekend.

:lmao

[Nathan89]

Resort to ring smack when you get fucked up the ass in an argument :lmao

You've just showed the forum that you're just as shitty of a poster as cully

No dipshit he said he was going to stick to facts and then claimed that David had zero rings. I would have never brought up rings otherwise.

[Nathan89]

proof?

link?

I already addressed this issue.

[Veterinarian.]

No dipshit he said he was going to stick to facts and then claimed that David had zero rings. I would have never brought up rings otherwise.

Are you fuckin stupid? He is arguing about winning rings as the main guy, the number 1 you dipshit. Even a fuckin chimp like koolaid could read that.

No one gives a fuck about robinsons two rings that he rode dick to get. Fact is, he could not get it done when it mattered and his highlight of his career was getting ass raped by Dream

[Monostradamus]

Not fact but it's pretty obvious. Do you speculate otherwise?

Actually those aren't facts
Dirk 1
D-Rob 2

D-Rob 2 as a supporting cast member
Perdue 4 as a supporting cast member

Will Perdue, greatest center in Spurs history!

[Monostradamus]

Although Dirks offensive stats may be better than Davids, he has always been horrible on defense. The stars aligned for the Mavs at the right time. Terry didnt choke. Dirk played tough. Kidd was a steady leader. Cuban shut the fuck up. They figured it out. For the first time the Mavs were the hunters, and not thw hunted. David was a much better all around player and id still take him over Dirk even though the highlight of his career was getting shitted on by Hakeem. Midget made some good points about Robinson, but he went too far with the Dirk comparisons. A prime David could guard a prime Dirk. A prime Dirk gets drug by a prime David.

E5OQp4YfkdA

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

1997 Spurs with Dirk instead of D-Rob

Will Purdue
Dirk
Dominique Wilkins
Sean Elliott
Avery Johnson

w/ Vernon Maxwell as the 6th man


STAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACKED

[Nathan89]

IMO Dirk could have easily won a championship with Dominique Wilkins and Sean Elliott.

So you think Dirk could win a championship with Wilkins(who was 37,shot .417fg%,avg 18ppg) and Sean (15ppg, on .422fg%). This would have been against Jordan(goat) and Pippen(top 50 all-time).

But Dirk couldn't win it in 2006 when Terry(17ppg on 47%fg) and Howard(15.6ppg on .471fg%).

:lmao IMO terrible post.

[Isitjustme?]

I think that in their careers if you swap Dirk with David, the Spurs are worse and the Mavs are better, yes.

[Nathan89]

Was merely stating that you weren't posting the facts you were claiming to.

[Monostradamus]

So you think Dirk could win a championship with Wilkins(who was 37,shot .417fg%,avg 18ppg) and Luck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_Lu ck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_(15p pg, on .422fg%). This would have been against Jordan(goat) and Pippen(top 50 all-time).

But Dirk couldn't win it in 2006 when Terry(17ppg on 47%fg) and Howard(15.6ppg on .471fg%).

:lmao IMO terrible post.

:lmao can't even spell Elliott right. What kind of shitty Spurs fan are you?

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

So you think Dirk could win a championship with Wilkins(who was 37,shot .417fg%,avg 18ppg) and Luck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_Lu ck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_(15p pg, on .422fg%). This would have been against Jordan(goat) and Pippen(top 50 all-time).

But Dirk couldn't win it in 2006 when Terry(17ppg on 47%fg) and Howard(15.6ppg on .471fg%).

:lmao IMO terrible post.
Funny, when Spurfan talks about 2011 Jason Kidd as a :crygreat fuckin supporting cast member:cry, his old age isn't mentioned at all, but you were quick to point out Wilkins' old age. Gotta love the double standard.

[Monostradamus]

Bynum 2
Mavs 1

E5OQp4YfkdA

[Nathan89]

:lmao can't even spell Elliott right. What kind of shitty Spurs fan are you?

yes I see that.

Are you going to stick to fact now?

[Monostradamus]

Every argument Spurs fans have in this thread is "I think...."

"I think D-Rob would have made the Mavs better"
"I think D-Rob could have led the Mavs to a title"
"I think Dirk would have made the Spurs worse"

How about posting what you know?

I know two things.

1. Dirk led his team to a title.
2. Robinson never did.

[Nathan89]

Funny, when Spurfan talks about 2011 Jason Kidd as a :crygreat fuckin supporting cast member:cry, his old age isn't mentioned at all, but you were quick to point out Wilkins' old age. Gotta love the double standard.

I didn't mention Kidd.

[Monostradamus]

yes I see that.

Are you going to stick to fact now?

2 facts.

1. Dirk led his team to a title.
2. Robinson never did.

[Monostradamus]

Pau 2
Dirk 1

Its settled

E5OQp4YfkdA

[Nathan89]

2 facts.

1. Dirk led his team to a title.
2. Robinson never did.

Do you think Dirk would have won on the Spurs?

[Monostradamus]

Do you think Dirk would have won on the Spurs?

I don't want to speculate. I want to speak the facts.

1. Dirk led his team to a title.
2. Robinson never did.

[Nathan89]

I don't want to speculate. I want to speak the facts.

1. Dirk led his team to a title.
2. Robinson never did.

I will speculate this comment to be a "No".

[Monostradamus]

I will speculate this comment to be a "No".

1. Dirk led his team to a title.
2. Robinson never did.

[Monostradamus]

I know 1 title wont erase a mountain of chokes. David was never up 2-0 with HC in the finals then went on to get swept. David never got his ass kicked by an 8th seed while having the best team in the league. Dirk did. Oh, and Jim did too. David never let one player alone outscore his entire fucking team for three quarters. David never got outplayed by a player the likes of David West. Wake up mavfag, we havent forgot.

E5OQp4YfkdA

[Nathan89]

1. Dirk led his team to a title.
2. Robinson never did.

During different decades/eras.

[Monostradamus]

David never got pranked called and tricked into marriage by an armed and dangerous fugitive.

E5OQp4YfkdA

[Monostradamus]

During different decades/eras.

1. Dirk led his team to a title.
2. Robinson never did.

[Nathan89]

1. Dirk led his team to a title.
2. Robinson never did.

goodnight culburn.

[Monostradamus]

David is an offspring of Hitler

E5OQp4YfkdA

[Monostradamus]

goodnight culburn.

can't argue with facts. sucks for you.

1. Dirk led his team to a title.
2. Robinson never did.

[Deuce Bigalow]

:lmao

suddenly sean elliott and other spurs players suck ass

funny how spurfan loves to twist that kind of shit to be convenient to their arguments

when arguing for timmy > kobe, they are quick to point out that timmy had no one on par with Pau at his side

then when it comes to the greatness of the spurs, suddenly manu > kobe in spurfan eyes

give it a break, faggots.

:lmao

so stretch, who do you think is better all time, Timmy or Jellybean?

[Leetonidas]

itt: 1 ring, faggot!

[FkLA]

but if I wanted to pick one guy to lead a team of role players, i will pick Dirk 10 times out of 10 over Robinson.

No you idiot, if you have a team thats really well balanced defensively and already has a defensive anchor like the 2011 Mavs than sure you probably pick Dirk. If its a team with no defensive anchor you take Robinson, if its a team full of players with average skillsets on both sides of the ball you take Robinson because he is elite in both those areas. Unless youre a homer mavfan of course.


do spurfans as a collective whole realize how pathetic they look trying to backpedal and call Dirk's supporting cast anything other than a bunch of thuggish mental midgets since he rang? It's like JET went from being a nut punching turtle headed faggot to GOAT 2nd fiddle overnight.

do mavfans as a collective whole realize how pathetic they look trying completely throw supporting casts out the window, when prior to Dirk ringing turtle headed faggot being his #2 was their excuse when defending Dirk's playoff shortcomings ?

[ElNono]

Dirk is pretty classy tbh... but DRob was the classiest of them all.

Did you all know that when a player receives the NBA's Community Assist Award, they receive the David Robinson Plaque, with the inscription "Following the standard set by NBA Legend David Robinson who improved the community piece by piece."?

DRob might have been shitted on by Hakeem, bible thumped his way out of a championship and might have never won a 'ship without riding Duncan's coattails, but goddamn he's a classy guy.

[ElNono]

One other argument to make is that DRob played in the Jordan era. Basically, a lot of good players didn't win in that time because the GOAT was just the GOAT. When Jordan temporarily retired, Hakeem just took a steamy dump over Dave and seized the moment.

Similarly, Dirk has been always pretty good, but not good enough to win in the Shaq/Duncan era. Those guys at their peak were just too dominant. Once the decline on those guys was apparent, that's where he seized the moment, and he should get all the credit for that.

[FkLA]

its hilarious watching mavfan always uses this 'gnsf is out to get the mavs' persecution complex, that they never give dirk or the mavs their due :cry

especially when most unbiased observers agree with the dumb, dallas hating, gnsf...that greatest pf of all time thread that had the kg/dirk argument had piston, cavs, lakers, suns, and celtic fans all rating kg higher than dirk and saw all these homer gooks get defensive about noone respecting dirk :lol

ask the drob or dirk question to an unbiased audience and ull get similar results.

[Monostradamus]

its hilarious watching mavfan always uses this 'gnsf is out to get the mavs' persecution complex, that they never give dirk or the mavs their due :cry

especially when most unbiased observers agree with the dumb, dallas hating, gnsf...that greatest pf of all time thread that had the kg/dirk argument had piston, cavs, lakers, suns, and celtic fans all rating kg higher than dirk and saw all these homer gooks get defensive about noone respecting dirk :lol

ask the drob or dirk question to an unbiased audience and ull get similar results.

1. Dirk led his team to a title.
2. Robinson never did.

[ambchang]

Once there was a wise man who advised the emperor on who to trust and how to make decisions:

Wise man: Your royal highness, what if someone come rushing to you and tell you there is a dragon in the middle of the city?

Emperor: I would think he is a fool, and not pay attention to him.

Wise man: Your royal highness, what if another man came in and said the exact same thing.

Emperor: I would think about it twice, but would not believe it.

Wise man: Your royal highness, what if a third person came in and repeat the same thing again?

Emperor: I would think there is some level of truth to it.

Wise man: Your royal highness, what if a fourth person did the same?

Emperor: I would believe it.

[stretch]

lol ambchang thinking hes clever and witty when he really is just a retarded bag of shit

[stretch]

itt: 1 ring, faggot!

:toast

[TD 21]

But not in the post-season. If regular season David consistently showed up in the playoffs, he shits all over Dirk. But that was never the case. No scoring champ should go 20 and 10 on .411 against Felton Spencer. And yes, you can counter that no MVP should get fucked by the 8th seeded Golden State Warriors, but Dirk had a great post-season run the year before, as well as plenty of other strong performances. Robinson didn't have one great season playoff campaign in his entire career. Not one.

Yes, in the post season. Robinson's efficiency dropped more, but if you're talking raw production, it's close offensively. Keep in mind, Robinson didn't have the luxury of having guys significantly smaller defending him. He also had barely half the chances Nowitzki's had as a number one option and didn't have anywhere near the talent on his team Nowitzki's had. I'm not saying Robinson didn't under perform in the playoffs as a number one option, I'm just saying, you're overstating the offensive gulf between the two and ignoring every other facet of the game.

stretch, it's not "an idea", it's a reality. You have no credibility or common sense if you're going to bring up Nowitzki averaging "10 rpg in the playoffs". He's averaged 41.3 mpg in the playoffs and according to Carlisle, he's 7-1 - 7-1 and 1/2. That's why he's averaged 10 rpg in the playoffs, not because of his rebounding acumen.

It's all about rebound percent or rate. He's pulled down 14.4% of rebounds in the playoffs. To give you an idea of how terrible that is, the elite rebounders are between 17-22. And before you go pulling the "but he plays away from the basket, so obviously he doesn't get many offensive rebounds" excuse, check Ryan Anderson's offensive rebound rate.

[DMC]

I know 1 title wont erase a mountain of chokes. David was never up 2-0 with HC in the finals then went on to get swept. David never got his ass kicked by an 8th seed while having the best team in the league. Dirk did. Oh, and Jim did too. David never let one player alone outscore his entire fucking team for three quarters. David never got outplayed by a player the likes of David West. Wake up mavfag, we havent forgot.
The Spurs did not have the best team in the league when they were beaten by the 8th seed.

In fact, they had only one more win since January than Memphis. They had the best record in the West, but not the best in the league.

Also, since when did best record = best team?

Let's see... if a team beats SA, they beat the best team in the league.

If SA wins, then the team with the best record won.

Why do you have such faggy takes?

[DMC]

Comparing Dirk and David is like comparing Barkley and Ray Allen. They don't have the same roles and you cannot compare them side by side.

As far as who belongs higher on the all time list? After 10, who gives a fuck?

[Giuseppe]

The Spurs did not have the best team in the league when they were beaten by the 8th seed.

In fact, they had only one more win since January than Memphis. They had the best record in the West, but not the best in the league.

Also, since when did best record = best team?

Let's see... if a team beats SA, they beat the best team in the league.

If SA wins, then the team with the best record won.

Why do you have such faggy takes?

Boiled down:::8

[stretch]

It's all about rebound percent or rate. He's pulled down 14.4% of rebounds in the playoffs. To give you an idea of how terrible that is, the elite rebounders are between 17-22. And before you go pulling the "but he plays away from the basket, so obviously he doesn't get many offensive rebounds" excuse, check Ryan Anderson's offensive rebound rate.

fucking idiot, not looking at the whole picture :rolleyes

funny is that in his playoff career, he actually have a higher defensive rebound rate than D-Rob. i guess d-rob completely blows ass at rebounding

and there is a difference from periodically setting picks and running out for open 3s, and being a hustle guy the rest of the game, as opposed to being the #1 offensive option on your team out on the perimeter.

but it figures you are too stupid to understand the difference between those things.

[Killakobe81]

:lmao

suddenly sean elliott and other spurs players suck ass

funny how spurfan loves to twist that kind of shit to be convenient to their arguments

when arguing for timmy > kobe, they are quick to point out that timmy had no one on par with Pau at his side

then when it comes to the greatness of the spurs, suddenly manu > kobe in spurfan eyes

give it a break, faggots.

:lmao

You notice this too? LOL

Like mid said if it came down to athleticism or defense only it's David. Dirk gives you boards and scoring.But his best case is his numbers actually go up most playoff seasons not down, with David that was rarely the case.

I do agree David's teams were not that great, but shouldnt that made his numbers better though probably less efficient.

I watched some Dream Team and ASG footage the other day from David's prime. And athletically he just stands out on "film". To be honest some of the shit I give Shaq for not maximizing his talents should also fall on David. He kept himself in great shape his whole career unlike shaq, but the fact his post game was never close to Timmy's (hakeem's was almost impossible for normal big men) was a shame. David was kind of like the 7 foot Lebron. An amazing specimen with an incredible size/speed ratio. Besides a college gain Shaq ... David has been the best bigman prospect I have ever seen. But he just did not have the drive of say Duncan or Dirk. No way Tim should be the GOAT spur player, but he is and it is not close.

Back to dirk. i probably do give him the edge over David. And that gap will only grow wider if Dirk has a few more elite seasons. But Dirk overrating is starting to get ridiculous. He was underrated after G-state, A bit overrated right now.

[LkrFan]

David never got pranked called and tricked into marriage by an armed and dangerous fugitive.

:lol

[FkLA]

Dirk shot 41% in the Finals.

Can you imagine Robinson shooting that percentage and his Spurs still being able to close out a Finals series? :lol

[Giuseppe]

Dirk shot 41% in the Finals.

Can you imagine Robinson shooting that percentage and his Spurs still being able to close out a Finals series? :lol

...with Duncan/pre shit bag days holding his hand. No.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Only someone who has never watched pre-back injury Robinson could start such a thread. 89'-96' DRob would destroy any of nowaday's frontcourts.

Just imagine a prime DRob guarding ZBo in last season's playoffs lol it's not even funny, he would have averaged over 10 blocks per game.

[Giuseppe]

Just imagine a prime DRob guarding ZBo in last season's playoffs lol it's not even funny

8 is mighty funny.

tee, hee.

[stretch]

Dirk shot 41% in the Finals.

Can you imagine Robinson shooting that percentage and his Spurs still being able to close out a Finals series? :lol

if Robinson was as good as Dirk at utilizing his ability to draw double teams and put his teammates in the best possible position to score, sure.

but he wasnt.

dirk > davey

[stretch]

Only someone who has never watched pre-back injury Robinson could start such a thread. 89'-96' DRob would destroy any of nowaday's frontcourts.

Just imagine a prime DRob guarding ZBo in last season's playoffs lol it's not even funny, he would have averaged over 10 blocks per game.

:lmao

[FkLA]

if Robinson was as good as Dirk at utilizing his ability to draw double teams and put his teammates in the best possible position to score, sure.

but he wasnt.

dirk > davey

Mavfan before 11': Dirks supporting cast just isnt good enough. Has nothing to do with Dirk.
Mavfan after 11': Dirk made all the difference, he made the supporting look great out there.

stretch homerism>spurfan homerism :lol

[stretch]

Mavfan before 11': Dirks supporting cast just isnt good enough. Has nothing to do with Dirk.
Mavfan after 11': Dirk made all the difference, he made the supporting look great out there.

completely incorrect

mav fans have given his supporting cast all the credit in the world for finally stepping up

Dirk has been great for years, and was once again great as usual, just it was more noticable how great he is since they were winning. but make no mistake, his presence makes the game exponentially more easier for his teammates, just like any legit superstar should be able to do.

Dirk > davey

[Killakobe81]

Only someone who has never watched pre-back injury Robinson could start such a thread. 89'-96' DRob would destroy any of nowaday's frontcourts.

Just imagine a prime DRob guarding ZBo in last season's playoffs lol it's not even funny, he would have averaged over 10 blocks per game.

Fair enough, maybe only Dwight in today's game could match David from a physical stand-point. I think Howard's improving post-game in some ways may be slightly better than David's (don't flame me I just don't remember him being that effective) but Robinson's jumper was far more effective ...IMHO.

But David should of been better than he was. He was so graceful watching him block a shot on one end and beat guards down to the other end ...was a thing of beauty.What does his numbers look like without the naval commitment? What he lose? 2 of his prime years?

[Leetonidas]

I still don't see why everyone's getting so butthurt when either side picks one over the other. If anything, sitting here arguing who is better between Robinson or Dirk shows that Robinson didn't maximize his talents and choked a lot in the playoffs and Dirk still has a ways to go to be compared to the big boys.

Like I said before, I'd pick David to build a team around, but it's close. I give Nowitzki the nod in the playoffs and as an overall better talent but David was a much more complete player. His shortcomings cannot be denied though. So really, boiled down:::

Regular season? David.
Playoffs? Dirk.

Despite Dirk's shortcomings on defense his ability to score efficiently from the perimeter on ANYONE makes him a HUGE asset in the post season when defenses get tighter. Even when that happens you have basically a 7'1" shooting guard who can shoot over anyone with high accuracy, and that makes him more valuable imo because he really is unguarable.

[stretch]

I still don't see why everyone's getting so butthurt when either side picks one over the other. If anything, sitting here arguing who is better between Robinson or Dirk shows that Robinson didn't maximize his talents and choked a lot in the playoffs and Dirk still has a ways to go to be compared to the big boys.

Like I said before, I'd pick David to build a team around, but it's close. I give Nowitzki the nod in the playoffs and as an overall better talent but David was a much more complete player. His shortcomings cannot be denied though. So really, boiled down:::

Regular season? David.
Playoffs? Dirk.

Despite Dirk's shortcomings on defense his ability to score efficiently from the perimeter on ANYONE makes him a HUGE asset in the post season when defenses get tighter. Even when that happens you have basically a 7'1" shooting guard who can shoot over anyone with high accuracy, and that makes him more valuable imo because he really is unguarable.

i think its moreso mavs fans enjoy fucking with GNSF here

myself and plenty of others have admitted, straight up, David is a more complete basketball player than Dirk, and in one-on-one, I would probably take David to beat Dirk.

but in terms of leading a team, I think Dirk brings more to the table, especially with his ability to dominate a game offensively in the clutch against elite defensive teams, something that is not very common to come across. hell, in the NBA today, there are maybe 5 players that come to mind that truly have that ability (Kobe, Dirk, Wade, Nash, CP3), and one of them is old and probably about done in that department (Nash), and another is capable, but is also equally capable of being a monumental choker (CP3).

[FkLA]

i think its moreso mavs fans enjoy fucking with GNSF here

or mavfan and their persecution complex :cry

[ambchang]

do spurfans as a collective whole realize how pathetic they look trying to backpedal and call Dirk's supporting cast anything other than a bunch of thuggish mental midgets since he rang? It's like JET went from being a nut punching turtle headed faggot to GOAT 2nd fiddle overnight.

Just like how Dirk went from the poster boy of choke to the taking over Jerry West's nickname.

[ambchang]

if Robinson was as good as Dirk at utilizing his ability to draw double teams and put his teammates in the best possible position to score, sure.

but he wasnt.

dirk > davey

Right, nobody would dare double off of Avery Johnson, Vinny Del Negro and Dennis Rodman.

[TD 21]

fucking idiot, not looking at the whole picture :rolleyes

funny is that in his playoff career, he actually have a higher defensive rebound rate than D-Rob. i guess d-rob completely blows ass at rebounding

and there is a difference from periodically setting picks and running out for open 3s, and being a hustle guy the rest of the game, as opposed to being the #1 offensive option on your team out on the perimeter.

but it figures you are too stupid to understand the difference between those things.

It's funny that you bring up the "whole picture", Mr. But he averages 10 rpg in the playoffs.

Who cares about drr? It's about overall rebound rate. Typical Mavs fans, always slicing the game in half to prop up Nowitzki. And who said Robinson was the standard for rebounding? He was between a good-very good rebounder, but he wasn't a great one.

You're absolute right, there is a difference between the two things you described. Which is precisely why Nowitzki has no business being compared to Robinson or other all-time great bigs, who had to be the number one option for their teams AND do everything else. They didn't get to consistently shoot over undersized defenders and have no other responsibilities.

[Stalin]

If dirk is so great, why he only manage one championship, while playing in a big market and having one of the highest payrolls year after year. He pretty much has had cuban stack his team at will. Oh, right, there is that decade of perennial choking, dirk had, almost forgot. At least the mavs fo, finally realized how one dimensional dirk is, a 7 foot reggie miller, if you will, and is stacking the team with defencive players, rather than additional scoring options. Not sure why anyone would pick a one trick pony, glorified specialist like dirk, over an overall better talent like robinson that does everything for you, when building a team around. It took mavs fo over 10 years, to finally come up with a supporting cast, that covers up enough of dirks physical and mental definciencies to bring home a title.

[dirk4mvp]

Just like how Dirk went from the poster boy of choke to the taking over Jerry West's nickname.

He was the poster boy of choke maybe to retards like yourself.


spurfans really don't like the idea that Dirk > davey is a tangible argument now.

[stretch]

Right, nobody would dare double off of Avery Johnson, Vinny Del Negro and Dennis Rodman.

Right, nobody would dare double off of Jason Kidd, Shawn Marion, and Tyson Chandler.

[stretch]

It's funny that you bring up the "whole picture", Mr. But he averages 10 rpg in the playoffs.

Who cares about drr? It's about overall rebound rate. Typical Mavs fans, always slicing the game in half to prop up Nowitzki. And who said Robinson was the standard for rebounding? He was between a good-very good rebounder, but he wasn't a great one.

You're absolute right, there is a difference between the two things you described. Which is precisely why Nowitzki has no business being compared to Robinson or other all-time great bigs, who had to be the number one option for their teams AND do everything else. They didn't get to consistently shoot over undersized defenders and have no other responsibilities.

dirk > davey

keep crying faggot

this is a fact

[ulosturedge]

Robinson dominated on both sides of the floor and put up some monster statistics throughout the prime of his career. Scoring, Rebounding, blocks, and even put up some good numbers for steals for a big man. What did Dirk do well? Score that's about fucking it. I'll give you that Dirk is way more clutch then Robinson ever was. But overall Robinson was a way better player. He excelled in all facets of the game.

One ring and all the sudden Dirk is a legend huh. Whatever. Trying to make this all based on playoff performances is laughable. Dirk doesn't ring last season and there wouldn't even be a discussion.

[Monostradamus]

Robinson dominated on both sides of the floor

In the regular season.


and put up some monster statistics throughout the prime of his career.

In the regular season.


Scoring, Rebounding, blocks, and even put up some good numbers for steals for a big man.

In the regular season.


What did Dirk do well? Score that's about fucking it.

In the regular season and the playoffs.


I'll give you that Dirk is way more clutch then Robinson ever was.

In the regular season and the playoffs.


But overall Robinson was a way better player. He excelled in all facets of the game.

In the regular season.


One ring and all the sudden Dirk is a legend huh.

The ring completed his legend status.


Trying to make this all based on playoff performances is laughable.

Until someone brings legit statistical proof that Karl Malone > Duncan, then magically playoff performance is all that matters.

[midnightpulp]

Robinson dominated on both sides of the floor and put up some monster statistics throughout the prime of his career. Scoring, Rebounding, blocks, and even put up some good numbers for steals for a big man. What did Dirk do well? Score that's about fucking it. I'll give you that Dirk is way more clutch then Robinson ever was. But overall Robinson was a way better player. He excelled in all facets of the game.

One ring and all the sudden Dirk is a legend huh. Whatever. Trying to make this all based on playoff performances is laughable. Dirk doesn't ring last season and there wouldn't even be a discussion.

Uh, what?

Basketball isn't like baseball and football where playoff statistics and performances, while important, aren't typically the defining factor when evaluating a player's legacy.

In the NBA, however, what you do in the playoffs (you don't have to necessarily stack championships, but you do at least need to perform at a high level), is 90% of the equation when figuring out a player's all-time great status.

If Robinson would've matched, or even come near, his regular season form in the playoffs, he's easily ahead of Dirk. But unfortunately for us Spurs fans, he never did. Not once.

[FkLA]

Uh, what?

Basketball isn't like baseball and football where playoff statistics and performances, while important, aren't typically the defining factor when evaluating a player's legacy.

In the NBA, however, what you do in the playoffs (you don't have to necessarily stack championships, but you do at least need to perform at a high level), is 90% of the equation when figuring out a player's all-time great status.

If Robinson would've matched, or even come near, his regular season form in the playoffs, he's easily ahead of Dirk. But unfortunately for us Spurs fans, he never did. Not once.

FG%
2001-42.3%
2002-44.5%
2003-47.9%
2004-45.0%
2005-40.2%
2006-46.8%
2007-38.3%
2008-47.3%
2009-51.8%
2010-54.7%
2011-48.5%

Had his fare share of chokejobs/dissapearing acts when his team looked like the best team in the league etc. Im not defending Robinson, his playoff shortcomings are well documented. Just saying why ignore Dirk's choking resume as well? His choker label was there for a reason, his team's massive failures and his numbers are there for you to see.

Even this year he shot 41% in the Finals and had a couple of disappearing acts in the 1st round vs the Blazers, first in the collapse in Game 4 and then in the near collapse in Game 6. Fortunately Terry bailed his ass out or who knows if this nigga wouldve gotten a chance to redeem himself. His playoff track record is far from perfect.

[ambchang]

Right, nobody would dare double off of Jason Kidd, Shawn Marion, and Tyson Chandler.

They probably shouldn't, given how Kidd made 43 3pters on 37.4% shooting in the playoffs, while Marion scores 12 points per game.

Chandler was the defensive anchor, and still averaged 8 ppg on 58% shooting.

Of course, there is the turtle, shooting 44% from 3 and making 42 of them, averaging 17.5 ppg.

Compare that to Robinson's teammates in the 95 playoffs. Sean Elliott was the one making the most 3pters in the playoffs at 20, a PG who made none, a SG shooting 43% from the field on wide open jumpers. Yeah, I would double off of Avery Johnson, Vinny Del Negro, Dennis Rodman and Sean Elliott (maybe on the last one), before I double off of Marion, Kidd, Terry and Chandler, no question.

[ambchang]

I mean, it's not like Mav fans have not given up their hope of Dirk being the #1 guy leading the them to the promised land:


Dirk has peaked, and definitely is declining. Fortunately, due to his skill set, he should be able to still play at a fairly high level for a pretty long time. He won't ever be what he used to be obviously, but he can still average over 20 ppg for another 4-5 years just because he is such a tough match-up, and has such great shooting touch.

Mavs should do what they can to get a youthful star, and have Dirk become the #2 guy soon. He would still be fantastic as a #2. If they could somehow land a guy like Dwayne Wade or Kevin Durant... that would be something great to see.


Dirk is currently better than several of the players ballijuana mentioned, but those same teams wouldnt trade their best players at this point in his career for him either. maybe if he was just entering, or currently in his prime, i can see that. but i wouldnt trade JJ, Dwight Howard, Deron Williams, or several other players for Dirk at this point in his career, even though he is RIGHT NOW, a better basketball player than them.

Gotta side with ballijuana on this one, and I might be the biggest Dirk lover on this board.

But then after 1 title when everything fell into place, Dirk is this irreplaceable player that is most definitely a number 1 option because he couldn't be guarded in the playoffs.

[Monostradamus]

after 1 title

The End.

[stretch]

They probably shouldn't, given how Kidd made 43 3pters on 37.4% shooting in the playoffs, while Marion scores 12 points per game.

Chandler was the defensive anchor, and still averaged 8 ppg on 58% shooting.

Interesting, because in the 95 playoffs Del Negro shot over 45% from three, and Avery averaged 15ppg on 52% shooting.

Dennis Rodman was a defensive and rebounding anchor, and still averaged 9 ppg on 54% shooting.

Those three guys stats looks pretty comparable, if not superior to the Mavs supporting players this postseason.


Of course, there is the turtle, shooting 44% from 3 and making 42 of them, averaging 17.5 ppg.

And there was Sean Elliott, putting up a comparable 17.3 ppg.


Compare that to Robinson's teammates in the 95 playoffs. Sean Elliott was the one making the most 3pters in the playoffs at 20, a PG who made none, a SG shooting 43% from the field on wide open jumpers. Yeah, I would double off of Avery Johnson, Vinny Del Negro, Dennis Rodman and Sean Elliott (maybe on the last one), before I double off of Marion, Kidd, Terry and Chandler, no question.

:lmao @ you trying to downplay them, when statistically the supporting cast of the 94-95 Spurs were extremely comparable to the supporting cast of the 10-11 Mavericks. Two can play that game, because the Mavs sported 2 guys who were known as career chokers (Marion/Terry), two very undersized shooting guards (Terry/Barea), a PG who cant beat Shaquille O'Neal off the dribble (Kidd), a center who cant score any points off anything other than a wide open dunk (Chandler), and a SF who is incapable of defending a drunk retard (Peja).

In the playoffs, both teams sported 3 guys who averaged double digits, and 4 more guys who averaged more than 6ppg.

The Spurs had 2 guys average double digit rebounds (Davey being one of them, Rodman being the other), and the Mavs had none.

Spurs also had a PG who racked up a higher APG average than the Mavs PG(Avery over Kidd)




Quit being a moron and trying to downplay the supporting cast of that Spurs squad. They weren't nearly as bad as you suggest, and quite comparable to the Mavs. Remember, few people thought the Mavs supporting cast was very good either, until they won a title. So what is the biggest difference between these two teams? Obviously it's not the supporting casts, as it was just proven how close they actually are.

Rather, its the fact that Dirk kicked ass in the playoffs, while Robinson choked on dick. When things got tough and odds stacked against the Mavs, Dirk stepped up by helping improve the play of his teammates, while Davey didnt (and chased people around with bibles instead :lol)

Dirk > Davey

go fuck yourself

[stretch]

I mean, it's not like Mav fans have not given up their hope of Dirk being the #1 guy leading the them to the promised land:





But then after 1 title when everything fell into place, Dirk is this irreplaceable player that is most definitely a number 1 option because he couldn't be guarded in the playoffs.

:lmao

pulling up posts from 2 and a half years ago

is that all you got?

[Bill_Brasky]

:lmao conveniently ignoring dream

[stretch]

:lmao conveniently ignoring dream

:lmao conveniently ignoring Kobe, Durant, and the Big 3

not to mention what is often considered one of the better frontlines in NBA history, in Odom, Gasol, and Bynum, all taking turns at Dirk and failing miserably in the process

level of competition is not a legit argument

[Veterinarian.]

:lmao ambchink reaching

:lol 2 years ago
:lol defending someone who put fucking someone with a bible over a championship
:lol career defined loser spook until he got piggy backed by Duncan

[Bill_Brasky]

:lmao conveniently ignoring Kobe, Durant, and the Big 3

not to mention what is often considered one of the better frontlines in NBA history, in Odom, Gasol, and Bynum, all taking turns at Dirk and failing miserably in the process

level of competition is not a legit argument

kobe, durant, lebron, and wade didnt guard dirk. The lakers front line was shitty and let jjb parade to the rim. B:lolsh cant defend.

Seriosuly, dirk would stand no chance against dream in 94/95 either. That and he's at 2-1 with no quad-dub.

[stretch]

kobe, durant, lebron, and wade didnt guard dirk. The lakers front line was shitty and let jjb parade to the rim. B:lolsh cant defend.

Seriosuly, dirk would stand no chance against dream in 94/95 either. That and he's at 2-1 with no quad-dub.

:sleep

okay

[ambchang]

Interesting, because in the 95 playoffs Del Negro shot over 45% from three,

Making 9 of them?


nd Avery averaged 15ppg on 52% shooting.

Avery Johnson has always been great in layups. Still couldn't nail an outside shot to open up the lane for any post player though.


Dennis Rodman was a defensive and rebounding anchor, and still averaged 9 ppg on 54% shooting.

Defensive anchor who left Horry to have his breakout party? He certainly didn't do too well in the Rockets series. And why would he average 9ppg on 54% shooting on top of being the defensive and rebounding anchor, I thought he gave up because Robinson chased him with a Bible.


Those three guys stats looks pretty comparable, if not superior to the Mavs supporting players this postseason.

Making 9 3pters is similar to making 42, making 0 3pters is similar to making 43. Sure.


And there was Sean Elliott, putting up a comparable 17.3 ppg.

Sean was good in that series, if he wasn't torched by Drexler on the other end. Sean was great most playoffs, he just wasn't well matched against Drexler, not to mention Bob Hill's "defensive" schemes didn't really help him.




:lmao @ you trying to downplay them, when statistically the supporting cast of the 94-95 Spurs were extremely comparable to the supporting cast of the 10-11 Mavericks. Two can play that game, because the Mavs sported 2 guys who were known as career chokers (Marion/Terry), two very undersized shooting guards (Terry/Barea), a PG who cant beat Shaquille O'Neal off the dribble (Kidd), a center who cant score any points off anything other than a wide open dunk (Chandler), and a SF who is incapable of defending a drunk retard (Peja).

You mentioned about doubling off players, and when the other team double off a teams post player, the supporting cast was supposed to nail open shots. Kidd, Marion, Terry did that, Avery Johnson, Vinny Del Negro did not (Sean did too).


In the playoffs, both teams sported 3 guys who averaged double digits, and 4 more guys who averaged more than 6ppg.

Yet one team have four players making more than 1 3pter per game and shooting over 37%, the other had one (Doc Rivers made 17 3pters in 15 games right on 37% shooting).


The Spurs had 2 guys average double digit rebounds (Davey being one of them, Rodman being the other), and the Mavs had none.

Great, I can see how this relates to double teams.


Spurs also had a PG who racked up a higher APG average than the Mavs PG(Avery over Kidd)

I can again see how this relates to double teams.


Quit being a moron and trying to downplay the supporting cast of that Spurs squad. They weren't nearly as bad as you suggest, and quite comparable to the Mavs. Remember, few people thought the Mavs supporting cast was very good either, until they won a title. So what is the biggest difference between these two teams? Obviously it's not the supporting casts, as it was just proven how close they actually are.

The biggest difference is that one supporting casts was actually built to hide the weakness of their best player, while the other doesn't. The Spurs had good players, Avery Johnson, Dennis Rodman and Sean Elliott were at least average (I actually believe Elliott is one of the best SF in the league during that time), just that their games do not compliment Robinson's.

Robinson needs outside shooting, it was not a surprise, everyone knew it. In fact, the Spurs got Chuck Person and Dale Ellis just because of that, too bad both of them were way over the hill when they joined the Spurs. Off the top of my head, I cannot think of one single dominant inside player who won without good outside shooting in the modern game. Jabbar had Magic, Hakeem had Drexler/Maxwell, Smith, Elie, Horry and Cassell, Shaq had Kobe, Duncan had Horry/Kerr/Elie/Jacksons/Manu.

Two things Robinson needed but never had, and that's consistent outside shooting, and a reliable PF to do the dirty work for him. Rodman was supposed to be the answer to need #2, but he wilted at the most important time.

Dirk had a team built to his needs. He had a floor general to dictate the offense in Kidd, he had a defensive anchor to hide his defensive shortcomings in Chandler, he had a reliable 2nd option in turtle, and he had a perimeter defender in Marion.


Rather, its the fact that Dirk kicked ass in the playoffs, while Robinson choked on dick. When things got tough and odds stacked against the Mavs, Dirk stepped up by helping improve the play of his teammates, while Davey didnt (and chased people around with bibles instead :lol)

Dirk kicked ass because he was empowered to do it. He choked in 06, choked 07, what suddenly made him so much better, despite you yourself labelling him past his prime? He got the teammates he needed.

Robinson never did get those teammates. Look at Robinson's rookie year when he had Rod Strickland, a healthy Terry Cummings and Willie Anderson was still decent, Robinson played as well in the playoffs as he did in the regular season.


Dirk > Davey

go fuck yourself

Hey, if you lack arguments, go to insults.

[ambchang]

:lmao

pulling up posts from 2 and a half years ago

is that all you got?

So what, Dirk found the fountain of youth?

He was past his prime 2.5 years ago! And all of a sudden, he is now worthy of being #1 leading the team to the promised land! Yeah!

[ambchang]

:lmao ambchink reaching

:lol 2 years ago

Mav fan logic:

Dirk is past his prime 2.5 years ago, and no longer good enough to be the #1 on a championship team, but as time passed, he got younger and reached his 2nd prime, good enough to be a #1.


:lol defending someone who put fucking someone with a bible over a championship

This just in, Rodman played fantastic with the Mavs and the Lakers, when nobody hit him on the head with a bible.


:lol career defined loser spook until he got piggy backed by Duncan

Actually, Robinson was well regarded within the league all the way up till he had two career-altering injuries. But hey, what do you know? You don't even know basketball.

It's so funny you are adding nothing to this discussion. Thanks for shedding comedy to this thread by letting us laugh at you.

[DPG21920]

My vote is for ambchang

[ambchang]

It is just sad how fans just cannot get over the fact that basketball is a team game. People label Jordan as the #1 of all time, but he couldn't win squat before he had a team built around him. He had a great perimeter defender and floor general in Pippen who wouldn't get in the way, he had fantastic outside shooting undersized SGs who rarely makes mistakes (Armstrong, Paxson, Kerr), he had strong interior defenders (Cartwright, Grant, Rodman), he had some decent passing/shooting big man perfect for the triangle (Wellington, Longley).

Before these players (and expansion destroying the Pistons), Jordan couldn't go too far in the playoffs. He shot 43.6% in the 85 playoffs and 41.7% in the 87 playoffs. He didn't choke in those playoffs, it was simply the other teams deciding to leave his teammates open and crowd Jordan.

I actually thought, out of all people, Mav fans would understand this simple concept, this concept that basketball is a team game, better than any other fan base in the world because their God Dirk Nowitzki was once dragged through the mud for underperforming in the playoffs through no fault of his own, but I guess I am putting too much faith in people who have consistently acted like 15 year olds.

[DPG21920]

It's definitely a sports fan fallacy. A player who isn't good enough to accomplish something the better part of their career, even when it's known they are past their true prime, accomplishes said event and now become better than they ever were.

[FkLA]

Gotta side with ballijuana on this one, and I might be the biggest Dirk lover on this board.

No might to it, you definitely are. :lol


the Mavs sported 2 guys who were known as career chokers (Marion/Terry)

Three. You forgot about Dirk himself.

[FkLA]

http://l.yimg.com/a/p/sp/editorial_image/6d/6d6ba5af9c2016e07412e7dadd832721/dirk_nowitzki_offers_words_of_support_to_tony_romo .png

:lmao

[stretch]

It is just sad how fans just cannot get over the fact that basketball is a team game. People label Jordan as the #1 of all time, but he couldn't win squat before he had a team built around him. He had a great perimeter defender and floor general in Pippen who wouldn't get in the way, he had fantastic outside shooting undersized SGs who rarely makes mistakes (Armstrong, Paxson, Kerr), he had strong interior defenders (Cartwright, Grant, Rodman), he had some decent passing/shooting big man perfect for the triangle (Wellington, Longley).

Before these players (and expansion destroying the Pistons), Jordan couldn't go too far in the playoffs. He shot 43.6% in the 85 playoffs and 41.7% in the 87 playoffs. He didn't choke in those playoffs, it was simply the other teams deciding to leave his teammates open and crowd Jordan.

I actually thought, out of all people, Mav fans would understand this simple concept, this concept that basketball is a team game, better than any other fan base in the world because their God Dirk Nowitzki was once dragged through the mud for underperforming in the playoffs through no fault of his own, but I guess I am putting too much faith in people who have consistently acted like 15 year olds.


It's definitely a sports fan fallacy. A player who isn't good enough to accomplish something the better part of their career, even when it's known they are past their true prime, accomplishes said event and now become better than they ever were.

explain why Tim Duncan > Karl Malone

[stretch]

Making 9 of them?

maybe if Davey helped him get more shots he would have made more


Avery Johnson has always been great in layups. Still couldn't nail an outside shot to open up the lane for any post player though.

hm, pretty much like Shawn Marion, completely useless offensively unless taking layups/dunks. wash


Defensive anchor who left Horry to have his breakout party? He certainly didn't do too well in the Rockets series. And why would he average 9ppg on 54% shooting on top of being the defensive and rebounding anchor, I thought he gave up because Robinson chased him with a Bible.

still put up 9 and 14 or whatever. better than chandlers 8 and 8, since stats matter so much to you. or do they? make up your mind, instead of just twisting it to fit your argument, and your argument only. wash again


Making 9 3pters is similar to making 42, making 0 3pters is similar to making 43. Sure.

im sorry that they had a comparable supporting cast, but werent able to play enough playoff games due to the fact that the Spurs did not have a good enough leader to help his teammates be more effective and be able to succeed more to have more opportunities.


Sean was good in that series, if he wasn't torched by Drexler on the other end. Sean was great most playoffs, he just wasn't well matched against Drexler, not to mention Bob Hill's "defensive" schemes didn't really help him.

kinda like Terry getting torched by Brandon Roy, Dwayne Wade, and James Harden. wash


You mentioned about doubling off players, and when the other team double off a teams post player, the supporting cast was supposed to nail open shots. Kidd, Marion, Terry did that, Avery Johnson, Vinny Del Negro did not (Sean did too).

statistically, it shows they did. again, make up your mind, stats or no stats? either way, i have a hard time believing they could have multiple guys averaging double digit scoring if they cant hit an open shot.


Yet one team have four players making more than 1 3pter per game and shooting over 37%, the other had one (Doc Rivers made 17 3pters in 15 games right on 37% shooting).

There are other ways to score than just hitting 3s. not sure why you have such an obsession with hitting 3s. there have been plenty of championship teams that didnt have to have 10 different players hitting 3s like you are suggesting is neccesary. If Davey knew how to pass the ball out correctly, instead of turning it over 4 times a game, maybe Del Negro would have had a few more 3s.


Great, I can see how this relates to double teams.

I can again see how this relates to double teams.

double teams were never even the point of discussion or the reason why i pulled these stats. the point is, that Robinson got more help than you would like to admit.


The biggest difference is that one supporting casts was actually built to hide the weakness of their best player, while the other doesn't. The Spurs had good players, Avery Johnson, Dennis Rodman and Sean Elliott were at least average (I actually believe Elliott is one of the best SF in the league during that time), just that their games do not compliment Robinson's.

And this proves my point exactly. Dirk is a superior clutch player and leader. Thanks for playing, dumbass. I'm not going to waste time on the rest of your post, because its a bunch of horseshit that I didn't and wont bother reading. But I hope you enjoyed typing it all out, despite the fact that you just proved my exact point right and didn't even realize it.

[stretch]

My vote is for ambchang

of course it is.

[ambchang]

explain why Tim Duncan > Karl Malone
Because Karl Malone had one of the best coaches in the history of the league along with the #2 PG, and still couldn’t make it. He had his chances against a Jordanless league, twice, and he lost both times.

He had outside shooters opening up the lane for him time and time again in Stockton, Jeff Malone and Jeff Hornacek, but he never made it.
Duncan had great teammates as well, but was his wings on the caliber of Malone in 99 and 03? No way, not even close. Jaren Jackson, Mario Elie, Steve Kerr, and Stephen Jackson, as much as I love them, is not on the same level as Malone’s wings in terms of nailing outside shots.

[stretch]

Because Karl Malone had one of the best coaches in the history of the league along with the #2 PG, and still couldn’t make it. He had his chances against a Jordanless league, twice, and he lost both times.

He had outside shooters opening up the lane for him time and time again in Stockton, Jeff Malone and Jeff Hornacek, but he never made it.
Duncan had great teammates as well, but was his wings on the caliber of Malone in 99 and 03? No way, not even close. Jaren Jackson, Mario Elie, Steve Kerr, and Stephen Jackson, as much as I love them, is not on the same level as Malone’s wings in terms of nailing outside shots.

So in other words, the difference was that Timmy won, and Karl lost. Why? Because Karl wasn't anywhere CLOSE to being as good of a team leader as Tim Duncan. Many people argue that he actually might have had a better skillset and was a more naturally talented and gifted player. However, he had his chances and pissed them away. Timmy had his chances and made the best of them, multiple times.

And I like how you pick and choose when comparing teammates, but don't like to pick and choose when looking at other teammates and opponents faced, or the situations going on, such as the strike in 99, having Robinson at his side, and facing some weak-ass competition. Also in 2003, facing an unhealthy, imploding Lakers squad, as well as a Dirk-less Mavericks, and LMAO nets. Don't forget he had the help of Parker and Ginobili by 2003. They might not have been as good as they were come 2005 and 2007, but they were still KEY parts of that Spurs championship team.

If you are going to do this pick-and-choose garbage, then look at it from all aspects, or don't do it at all.

Anyways, I'm a 100% believer that Timmy >>>>>>>> Malone as well. But I just love how much you pick and choose shit, as well as your revisionist history that Timmy took a squad of simply Mario Elie, Stephen Jackson, Steve Kerr, and Jaren Jackson to a title, forgetting the assistance of Robinson, Avery, Elliott, Manu, and Parker in those years as well. Kinda like how just to fit your ridiculous 95 Spurs argument, a team that won 62 games suddenly completely sucked astronomical amounts of ass, and all 62 games were won entirely at the hands of David Robinson going 1-on-5 against everyone. Cut that shit out, and debate logically, instead of twisting and making shit up just to fit your argument.

[ambchang]

maybe if Davey helped him get more shots he would have made more
Maybe you should watch the games again. I did.

v=EPQZWzDX8ZY The other parts are then linked.

Del Negro was consistently passing up wide open shots, and clanking them when he took them. Then on defense, he was burned by whoever he was guarding, every single time. I can’t fault him though, Del Negro was known to be a bad defender.


hm, pretty much like Shawn Marion, completely useless offensively unless taking layups/dunks. Wash
As ugly as Marion’s shot is, he still made more than 1 single three pointer in his entire playoff career.

In fact, he nailed 63, making 33% of them. Sure, all of those were done during his Suns days, and Carlisle obviously reined him in when he was playing for the Mavs, but Marion was an outside threat, and can make a 3 pter if need be.

Avery Johnson made 1 3 pter his entire playoff career out of 16 tries. That’s 6% (No, not 60%, 6%, as in 0.06)


still put up 9 and 14 or whatever. better than chandlers 8 and 8, since stats matter so much to you. or do they? make up your mind, instead of just twisting it to fit your argument, and your argument only. wash again
Of course stats matter, he scored 8 pts in the paint, great, he didn’t open up the lane for Robinson, just like Chandler didn’t open up the lane for Dirk. But guess what? Kidd, turtle, and a bunch of other Mavs did.


im sorry that they had a comparable supporting cast, but werent able to play enough playoff games due to the fact that the Spurs did not have a good enough leader to help his teammates be more effective and be able to succeed more to have more opportunities.



kinda like Terry getting torched by Brandon Roy, Dwayne Wade, and James Harden. Wash

I can go with a Terry and Elliott wash. In fact, I think 95 Elliott was better than 11Terry. So?


statistically, it shows they did. again, make up your mind, stats or no stats? either way, i have a hard time believing they could have multiple guys averaging double digit scoring if they cant hit an open shot.

Because big man requires an open lane, and if a player cannot nail outside shots, the lane is closed. Duncan saw it in 01, 02 and 04, Hakeem saw it in the early 90’s/late 80’s, Kareem saw that in the late 70’s.


There are other ways to score than just hitting 3s. not sure why you have such an obsession with hitting 3s. there have been plenty of championship teams that didnt have to have 10 different players hitting 3s like you are suggesting is neccesary. If Davey knew how to pass the ball out correctly, instead of turning it over 4 times a game, maybe Del Negro would have had a few more 3s.

See above. I am not sure why this is such a hard concept to understand. Big man works in the paint, if you do not have shooters to open up the lane for you, defense crowds the lane and dares you to shoot open jumpers (that will clank).


double teams were never even the point of discussion or the reason why i pulled these stats. the point is, that Robinson got more help than you would like to admit.

Are you Stretch, or did somebody hack into your account?

if Robinson was as good as Dirk at utilizing his ability to draw double teams and put his teammates in the best possible position to score, sure.

but he wasnt.

dirk > davey


And this proves my point exactly. Dirk is a superior clutch player and leader. Thanks for playing, dumbass. I'm not going to waste time on the rest of your post, because its a bunch of horseshit that I didn't and wont bother reading. But I hope you enjoyed typing it all out, despite the fact that you just proved my exact point right and didn't even realize it.
Apparently, you didn’t bother reading your own posts either.

Hey, and thanks for resorting to insults and backtracking, first rate arguments.

Coles Notes:
Stretch – Dirk > Davey because Dirk draws double teams while Robinson chokes
Ambchang – Robinson’s teammates suck at shooting open shots
Stretch – Double team is not the point of discussion.

[stretch]

Maybe you should watch the games again. I did.

v=EPQZWzDX8ZY The other parts are then linked.

Del Negro was consistently passing up wide open shots, and clanking them when he took them. Then on defense, he was burned by whoever he was guarding, every single time. I can’t fault him though, Del Negro was known to be a bad defender.


As ugly as Marion’s shot is, he still made more than 1 single three pointer in his entire playoff career.

In fact, he nailed 63, making 33% of them. Sure, all of those were done during his Suns days, and Carlisle obviously reined him in when he was playing for the Mavs, but Marion was an outside threat, and can make a 3 pter if need be.

Avery Johnson made 1 3 pter his entire playoff career out of 16 tries. That’s 6% (No, not 60%, 6%, as in 0.06)


Of course stats matter, he scored 8 pts in the paint, great, he didn’t open up the lane for Robinson, just like Chandler didn’t open up the lane for Dirk. But guess what? Kidd, turtle, and a bunch of other Mavs did.



I can go with a Terry and Elliott wash. In fact, I think 95 Elliott was better than 11Terry. So?



Because big man requires an open lane, and if a player cannot nail outside shots, the lane is closed. Duncan saw it in 01, 02 and 04, Hakeem saw it in the early 90’s/late 80’s, Kareem saw that in the late 70’s.



See above. I am not sure why this is such a hard concept to understand. Big man works in the paint, if you do not have shooters to open up the lane for you, defense crowds the lane and dares you to shoot open jumpers (that will clank).



Are you Stretch, or did somebody hack into your account?



Apparently, you didn’t bother reading your own posts either.

Hey, and thanks for resorting to insults and backtracking, first rate arguments.

Coles Notes:
Stretch – Dirk > Davey because Dirk draws double teams while Robinson chokes
Ambchang – Robinson’s teammates suck at shooting open shots
Stretch – Double team is not the point of discussion.

:lmao

more picking and choosing

i dont have any more time to waste on this. you are set in your ways, im set in mine, and obviously nothing either one of us says will change each others viewpoint, which is perfectly fine. ill just stick to the fact that mattered most.

Dirk as the true #1 - rang

Davey as the true #1 - never sniffed the finals

Dirk > Davey

[stretch]

oh great, DPG in here now to give ambchang a blowjob

its probably extra easy for DPG because he can stand up straight, and still blow a gnome with ease

[DPG21920]

Dirk before he rang, not better than David.

Dirk, according to Mav fans was past his true prime.

Dirk was past his true prime before he rang and wasn't better than David until he rang per Mav fan.

Dirk being past his true prime where he wasn't considered better than David now has a ring and that somehow made him better than David.

[ambchang]

So in other words, the difference was that Timmy won, and Karl lost. Why? Because Karl wasn't anywhere CLOSE to being as good of a team leader as Tim Duncan. Many people argue that he actually might have had a better skillset and was a more naturally talented and gifted player. However, he had his chances and pissed them away. Timmy had his chances and made the best of them, multiple times.
Yeah, so how does that apply to Dirk vs. Robinson, when it is so obvious that one player have the necessary support, while the other didn’t?


And I like how you pick and choose when comparing teammates, but don't like to pick and choose when looking at other teammates and opponents faced, or the situations going on, such as the strike in 99, having Robinson at his side, and facing some weak-ass competition. Also in 2003, facing an unhealthy, imploding Lakers squad, as well as a Dirk-less Mavericks, and LMAO nets. Don't forget he had the help of Parker and Ginobili by 2003. They might not have been as good as they were come 2005 and 2007, but they were still KEY parts of that Spurs championship team.
The Spurs swept Portland and the Lakers. The Lakers won the next 3 championships, while Portland was 17 FTAs in the 4th quarter from winning one. How is that weak?

And Robinson opened up the lane for Duncan how? Robinson and Duncan were the ONLY twin towers that ever won the championship, reason being it is very difficult to find big men who don’t get into each others’ way.
The Lakers were imploding then? They imploded since 01, didn’t stop them from winning two more championships. THe Spurs went up 2-1 vs. the Mavs with Dirk, with both wins in relatively large margins. The Spurs eventually closed them out 4-2, showing Dirk had minimal effect on the results.
Parker sucked in 03, he had Speedy Claxton and Steve Kerr save his butt vs. the Nets and Mavs. Ginobili was a rookie, and was putting up barely 10ppg. Ginobili didn’t even start, and played 28mpg. Ginobili was as key in 03 as Barrea was key in 11.

If you are going to do this pick-and-choose garbage, then look at it from all aspects, or don't do it at all.

Or should I go revisionist history like you?


Anyways, I'm a 100% believer that Timmy >>>>>>>> Malone as well. But I just love how much you pick and choose shit, as well as your revisionist history that Timmy took a squad of simply Mario Elie, Stephen Jackson, Steve Kerr, and Jaren Jackson to a title, forgetting the assistance of Robinson, Avery, Elliott, Manu, and Parker in those years as well. Kinda like how just to fit your ridiculous 95 Spurs argument, a team that won 62 games suddenly completely sucked astronomical amounts of ass, and all 62 games were won entirely at the hands of David Robinson going 1-on-5 against everyone. Cut that shit out, and debate logically, instead of twisting and making shit up just to fit your argument.

Because was are, and has been talking about double teaming big-men. But wait, you weren’t talking about that at all suddenly, despite the fact that you raised the topic.

[stretch]

Dirk before he rang, not better than David.

Dirk, according to Mav fans was past his true prime.

Dirk was past his true prime before he rang and wasn't better than David until he rang per Mav fan.

Dirk being past his true prime where he wasn't considered better than David now has a ring and that somehow made him better than David.

without rings, is Timmy the greatest PF ever? without rings, is he even considered better than Chuck or Malone?

rings matter when it comes to talk of historical greatness, especially when you are the centerpiece of the championship squads




i think you idiots keep forgetting the fact that I am the first to admit that Davey was a superior all-around basketball player to Dirk. But Dirk will go down as the a greater historical figure, because he was the key centerpiece of a championship team, and did so in a legendary manner.

same for Shaq and David Robinson debates. David was unquestionably a more well-rounded and skilled player than Shaq in virtually every aspect of the game. But Shaq was capable of raising the play of his teammates, and putting a team on his back when they needed him most. Shaq is historically the greater player, and most people would probably prefer to build a team around Shaq before building around David.

Winning isn't everything, but when two players are very comparable, and one was clearly a better winner than the other, it most definitely is a legitimate deal-breaker.

[stretch]

Robinson and Duncan were the ONLY twin towers that ever won the championship, reason being it is very difficult to find big men who don’t get into each others’ way.

um, Pau and Bynum?

McHale and Parish?

yeah, they were the ONLY ones ever :rolleyes

[Killakobe81]

without rings, is Timmy the greatest PF ever? without rings, is he even considered better than Chuck or Malone?

rings matter when it comes to talk of historical greatness, especially when you are the centerpiece of the championship squads




i think you idiots keep forgetting the fact that I am the first to admit that Davey was a superior all-around basketball player to Dirk. But Dirk will go down as the a greater historical figure, because he was the key centerpiece of a championship team, and did so in a legendary manner.

same for Shaq and David Robinson debates. David was unquestionably a more well-rounded and skilled player than Shaq in virtually every aspect of the game. But Shaq was capable of raising the play of his teammates, and putting a team on his back when they needed him most. Shaq is historically the greater player, and most people would probably prefer to build a team around Shaq before building around David.

Winning isn't everything, but when two players are very comparable, and one was clearly a better winner than the other, it most definitely is a legitimate deal-breaker.

I agree. But Spur fan (some) likes to switch their debates to suit their case. Prior to Kobe/Dirk ringing winning was why duncan was better. Numbers disnt tell the whole story. Then when PER and especially win shares said duncan was amazing they latched there. But now that 5>4 (kobe/tim) or 1>0 (dirk/david) the rings don't matter. Im with you Stretch, if the two players are CLOSE just as Kobe/duncan and Dirk/David are, then the rings should end the debate. Just like it does for duncan/malone.

For the record I also take Duncan over Karl but if the rings were even or close I would consider going the other way and I despise Malone. But the man could play he is just not clutch.

[Killakobe81]

But you can make the case that if Dirk and Kobe put up a couple more elite seasons neither of the above debates will be close.

[ambchang]

:lmao

more picking and choosing

i dont have any more time to waste on this. you are set in your ways, im set in mine, and obviously nothing either one of us says will change each others viewpoint, which is perfectly fine. ill just stick to the fact that mattered most.

Dirk as the true #1 - rang

Davey as the true #1 - never sniffed the finals

Dirk > Davey

Wait, where is the content and arguments? Oh noes, there are none! Because stretch couldn't get over the fact that he is now arguing against himself.

Stretch: Dirk > Davey because he commands double teams

Stretch: Nobody's talking about double teams.

[ambchang]

um, Pau and Bynum?

Um, Kobe?


McHale and Parish?

Um Bird?

yeah, they were the ONLY ones ever :rolleyes[/QUOTE]

Might as well put in Dirk and Chandler in there, because twin towers mean two 7-fters.

What about Garnett and Perkins?

[stretch]

Wait, where is the content and arguments? Oh noes, there are none! Because stretch couldn't get over the fact that he is now arguing against himself.

Stretch: Dirk > Davey because he commands double teams

Stretch: Nobody's talking about double teams.

right, when I was in the middle of comparing the quality of teammates, and clearly stated that was what I was doing, that means I was talking about double teams from something I posted several pages earlier.

:lmao picking and choosing

[stretch]

Um, Kobe?

Um Bird?

Might as well put in Dirk and Chandler in there, because twin towers mean two 7-fters.

What about Garnett and Perkins?

not merely two 7fters, but a twin tower combo that generally dominated their positions, and did so effectively without getting in each others ways. you were the one that basically said its impossible to have two heavily effective big men on the same team to win a championship that don't get in each others way, but both of those combos won multiple championships, and didnt seem to have too much trouble working with each other effectively.

[ambchang]

right, when I was in the middle of comparing the quality of teammates, and clearly stated that was what I was doing, that means I was talking about double teams from something I posted several pages earlier.

:lmao picking and choosing

How do you double off of a big man? You double off of

a) Perimeter players because a there is more time to recover on defense, and because a jump shot from further away is a lower percentage shot from closer. Dirk had some decent, not great, shooters that other teams are hesitant to double off of. Robinson had Avery Johnson and Vinny Del Negro, where every single defender is willing to double off of.
b) Inside sidekick with no offense. Dirk mans the high post, if someone doubles off of Chandler, he can dump the ball to the middle for an easy dunk/layup. Robinson mans the low post and high post, if people double off of Rodman, he refuses to shoot unless it is an ill-advised 3pter.


not merely two 7fters, but a twin tower combo that generally dominated their positions, and did so effectively without getting in each others ways. you were the one that basically said its impossible to have two heavily effective big men on the same team to win a championship that don't get in each others way, but both of those combos won multiple championships, and didnt seem to have too much trouble working with each other effectively.

Fine, your definition defers from mine. I name twin towers as two big man who are specifically and clearly #1 and #2 options on a team that.

[ambchang]

BTW, I thought you were done with this thread.

[ambchang]

BTW2, nobody has yet to explain how Dirk is past his prime 2.5 years ago, and not good enough to become the #1 option on championship team, to suddenly becoming good enough again.

[stretch]

lol more picking and choosing

:sleep


BTW2, nobody has yet to explain how Dirk is past his prime 2.5 years ago, and not good enough to become the #1 option on championship team, to suddenly becoming good enough again.

I was incorrect 2.5 years ago to think he was done. You happy?

[DPG21920]

:lmao Stretch wrong about that Dirk

Also here comes Killa to bang Stretch again. Which should be easy because Stretch is a huge v*gina.

[Giuseppe]

...& everybody was wrong about that Barea.

Cept Cubby.

[Killakobe81]

:lmao Stretch wrong about that Dirk

Also here comes Killa to bang Stretch again. Which should be easy because Stretch is a huge v*gina.

Bang stretch? Me and this man have hardly agreed on ANYTHING before this ...except maybe we both root for the Cowboys.

[DPG21920]

You hate the Spurs

[DPG21920]

But you're good people like Stretch

[Bill_Brasky]

Cubby used up all his wrongness on the Suns :lmao

[Killakobe81]

You hate the Spurs

I do not hate the Spurs. In fact, I thought I would adopt them as a "second team" when I moved there. Catch teh Lakers and afew other games at the AT&T ...

But when I found out how much SPur fans "hated on the Lakers" and the purple and gold faithful, I started to build up a dislike of Spur fan. But with no Bowen there is no one to hate. I dont care for RJ or Frenchy but I have so much respect for Pop and duncan cant truly hate the spurs. I like a dumbass picked you guys to beat the Suns in the playoffs 2 years ago and the Grizz last season. I also posted upstairs I did NOT think you guys were done.

Some, hate ...

[Bill_Brasky]

Killa = most spur-friendly lakerfan, I've seen him show love for Duncan/Gino/Pop

[stretch]

Bang stretch? Me and this man have hardly agreed on ANYTHING before this ...except maybe we both root for the Cowboys.

i dont root for the Cowboys either

Raider Nation

[Killakobe81]

i dont root for the Cowboys either

Raider Nation

Well shit, we aint even got that ...:lol

We just think yall overrating David that is all, let us proceed.

[Killakobe81]

Killa = most spur-friendly lakerfan, I've seen him show love for Duncan/Gino/Pop

Yep them 3 I would take on my squad anyday and twice in the Finals ...:toast

Frenchy, RJ, Avery (hate that voice) and Bowen I despise i even hate him as an analyst. That bowtie is hideous ...

[Bill_Brasky]

Yep them 3 I would take on my squad anyday and twice in the Finals ...:toast

Frenchy, RJ, Avery (hate that voice) and Bowen I despise i even hate him as an analyst. That bowtie is hideous ...

:toast

Soft spot in my heart for Bruce/Parker though

[ambchang]

Saying perimeter players have an effect on a big man's offensive game is picking and choosing? What brand of basketball are you watching.

Please name me one dominant big who won a championship without some legit outside threat.

Wilt had it
Russell had a whole team of them, and he doesn't even need to score.
Kareem had it
Moses had it
Hakeem had it
Shaq had it
Duncan had it
Even Ewing, Malone and Barkley had it

I am not sure who I missed, but really, I just can't think of a championship winning #1 big who won it all without legit outside threats.

[ambchang]

I was incorrect 2.5 years ago to think he was done. You happy?

You were actually wrong 2.5 years ago, and even more wrong now.

Dirk has always been good enough to be the #1 on a championship team since 05/06 or so, but he just never had the support. He never had the team built around him to magnify his strengths like the 11 team. That 11 team supporting cast was by no means amazing, but it does compliment Dirk very well and allowed him to win the championship.

The ideal team for Dirk would be:
1) Interior defender (Chandler)
2) Outside shooter/slasher (Turtle, Barrea)
3) Perimeter defender (Marion, could definitely be upgraded, and Kidd)
4) Floor general who can nail open shots (Kidd).

That team certainly could be upgraded, and the Mavs would be more devastating, and Dirk certainly made his mark in the 11 playoffs, but it's not because he all of a sudden became a better leader and is more clutch, that's for lazy writers who don't understand the game.

[stretch]

lol Sean Elliott
lol Chuck Person
lol Vinny Del Negro

lol all above 35% career 3pt shooters
lol all shot over 38% in the 94-95 season, Davey's best opportunity

lol legit outside threats

[stretch]

You were actually wrong 2.5 years ago, and even more wrong now.

Dirk has always been good enough to be the #1 on a championship team since 05/06 or so, but he just never had the support. He never had the team built around him to magnify his strengths like the 11 team. That 11 team supporting cast was by no means amazing, but it does compliment Dirk very well and allowed him to win the championship.

The ideal team for Dirk would be:
1) Interior defender (Chandler)
2) Outside shooter/slasher (Turtle, Barrea)
3) Perimeter defender (Marion, could definitely be upgraded, and Kidd)
4) Floor general who can nail open shots (Kidd).

That team certainly could be upgraded, and the Mavs would be more devastating, and Dirk certainly made his mark in the 11 playoffs, but it's not because he all of a sudden became a better leader and is more clutch, that's for lazy writers who don't understand the game.

I don't disagree with anything posted here, whatsoever.

[Killakobe81]

Saying perimeter players have an effect on a big man's offensive game is picking and choosing? What brand of basketball are you watching.

Please name me one dominant big who won a championship without some legit outside threat.

Wilt had it
Russell had a whole team of them, and he doesn't even need to score.
Kareem had it
Moses had it
Hakeem had it
Shaq had it
Duncan had it
Even Ewing, Malone and Barkley had it

I am not sure who I missed, but really, I just can't think of a championship winning #1 big who won it all without legit outside threats.

Disagree. Maybe he had it with Houston but by then Ewing wa spast his prime. I loved starks but we saw what he did in Game 7 of the Finals ...

[stretch]

I really don't get ambchangs real issue.

Is his issue the fact that myself and others are putting a great emphasis on winning? That's basically what it appears to be.

So winning suddenly isn't that important anymore?

Okay.

[Bill_Brasky]

The thing is that Dirk is a big who IS a legit outside scoring threat.

[DPG21920]

No Stretch, winning is important, but the importance Mav fan is placing one title is what's out of whack.

The fact remains that even Mav fan would say, along with most every pundit that before this last year David was ahead of Dirk. While the ring certainly helps Dirk in any discussion I refuse to believe that winning 1 ring with a well balanced team even if he was the number 1 offensive option changes the player he was. If he wasn't regarded as better than David before the ring and he didn't improve as an overall player, winning the ring doesn't jump him.

1 ring is great and a lot more than many but unless you are winning multiple rings as the clear cut man, it doesn't drastically change my rankings. The truly dominant number 1's all ring more than once. I could also understand if David had 0, but he has two rings even if it's not as the number one guy.

[FkLA]

Im with you Stretch, if the two players are CLOSE just as Kobe/duncan and Dirk/David are, then the rings should end the debate.

So basically you have the same retarded stretch logic that how those rings were won shouldnt be analyzed?

It doesnt matter that Kobe plays in a team that has historically always won, that he had a Top 10 player of all-time during his prime by his side for 3 of them, or that his payroll was always greater than Duncan's Spurs? All that matters is he has 5 and Duncan has 4 right? Just forget that Duncan's circumstances were tougher considering he did it in a small-market city that hadnt won anything before him and likely wont without him and with a low payroll. It's like Kobe winning 5 at NC or Duncan winning 4 at Gonzaga or something...tell me which is more impressive?

You do the same for the Dirk/DRob argument. Robinson never had the depth or the type of solid veterans Dirk had on his team this year. He never had his teammates perform the way some of Dirk's did either, despite being doubled and focused on by opposing defenses just as much.

[FkLA]

No Stretch, winning is important, but the importance Mav fan is placing one title is what's out of whack.

The fact remains that even Mav fan would say, along with most every pundit that before this last year David was ahead of Dirk. While the ring certainly helps Dirk in any discussion I refuse to believe that winning 1 ring with a well balanced team even if he was the number 1 offensive option changes the player he was. If he wasn't regarded as better than David before the ring and he didn't improve as an overall player, winning the ring doesn't jump him.

1 ring is great and a lot more than many but unless you are winning multiple rings as the clear cut man, it doesn't drastically change my rankings. The truly dominant number 1's all ring more than once. I could also understand if David had 0, but he has two rings even if it's not as the number one guy.

Funny thing is he was a second-tier franchise player most of his career. How many years can you look back on and say Dirk was a Top 5 player in the league? Or that he was the best player at his position? You can count them on one hand yet now mavfan wants to place him as a Top 20 or even Top 15 player of all-time after one ring. :lol

[Stalin]

Funny thing is he was a second-tier franchise player most of his career. How many years can you look back on and say Dirk was a Top 5 player in the league? Or that he was the best player at his position? You can count them on one hand yet now mavfan wants to place him as a Top 20 or even Top 15 player of all-time after one ring. :lol

Co sign

[stretch]

No Stretch, winning is important, but the importance Mav fan is placing one title is what's out of whack.

The fact remains that even Mav fan would say, along with most every pundit that before this last year David was ahead of Dirk. While the ring certainly helps Dirk in any discussion I refuse to believe that winning 1 ring with a well balanced team even if he was the number 1 offensive option changes the player he was. If he wasn't regarded as better than David before the ring and he didn't improve as an overall player, winning the ring doesn't jump him.

1 ring is great and a lot more than many but unless you are winning multiple rings as the clear cut man, it doesn't drastically change my rankings. The truly dominant number 1's all ring more than once. I could also understand if David had 0, but he has two rings even if it's not as the number one guy.

ROFL

this is pure gold. spurfan at their finest.

"rings only mean something if you have more than one! if you only get one, it means you are as shitty as anyone else!!!!!!!!!"

:lmao

[Bill_Brasky]

ROFL

this is pure gold. spurfan at their finest.

"rings only mean something if you have more than one! if you only get one, it means you are as shitty as anyone else!!!!!!!!!"

:lmao

More retarded than the logic of

":cry1 ring as the main guy is :cryso much more important than 2 as second fiddle, :cryeven if that team would have never stood a chance :crywithout you on it:cry"

?

[Veterinarian.]

Explain why Duncan>Malone please.

[Killakobe81]

So basically you have the same retarded stretch logic that how those rings were won shouldnt be analyzed?

It doesnt matter that Kobe plays in a team that has historically always won, that he had a Top 10 player of all-time during his prime by his side for 3 of them, or that his payroll was always greater than Duncan's Spurs? All that matters is he has 5 and Duncan has 4 right? Just forget that Duncan's circumstances were tougher considering he did it in a small-market city that hadnt won anything before him and likely wont without him and with a low payroll. It's like Kobe winning 5 at NC or Duncan winning 4 at Gonzaga or something...tell me which is more impressive?

You do the same for the Dirk/DRob argument. Robinson never had the depth or the type of solid veterans Dirk had on his team this year. He never had his teammates perform the way some of Dirk's did either, despite being doubled and focused on by opposing defenses just as much.

HUH?
1. So Mj shoul have points taken away because he beat an aging Lakers or Pistons instead of the prime 80's Lakers, Celtics or sixers?

2. So Dirk beating the defending champ Lakers, the new power Heat and thunder is LESS impressive than beating a young Cavs with Lebron but no wade or Bosh? or Beating the powerhouse NJ Nets? Or a Ewing-less Knicks team? Only run that compares is when you beat the pistons in the finals. Sure the Lakers were on fumes but the Mavs run led by dirk is every bit as impressive as any of the Spur title runs.

3. though no small market, what had Dallas won? As you pointed out many doubted dirk could even carry a team to a ring as the #1 ...he did.

4. I never said how the rings were won or shouldnt be analyzed but only the land of wizards, tongue rings, D&D and calf tats would anyone argue that Kobe/duncan or Dirk/David is not at least close enough to debate. So I think if it's close ring counts is the deciding factor. You do not. that is cool.

*BTW ...no i dont think Horry is better than Malone becuase he has more rings. that is stupid. Malone is miles better. it's only when the debate is close do rings matter.

*Just waiting for a dumbass to bring up Horry or john Salley ...

[stretch]

fwiw, I can understand TO AN EXTENT, what DPG is trying to say here, but its entirely situational. If Dirk were to have won a championship, and was mostly carried by great teammates, then I'd be inclined to say that it wasn't as significant of a championship for that particular player's legacy. For instance, the 2007 championship, IMO isn't as big for Timmy's legacy as the 2003 one was. In 2007, while he was the centerpiece, he many times was outshined by Parker and Ginobili. But in 2003, that was almost 100% Timmy putting the team on his back and elevating their play.

However, in Dirk's case, he flat out put the team on his back, and carried them almost 100% of the time. In the few moments where he was not at his best, they stepped up, which is normal. No player has been borderline perfect in an entire playoff run, not even MJ. But generally, Dirk was far and away the best basketball player in the entire playoff picture. Dirk has almost always been a monster and dominant in the playoffs, especially over the past 3-4 years. But this year in particular, he seemed even more focused than I had ever seen him before, and put the Mavs on his back in a way I had never seen before. Even though he was playing incredibly well in previous years, he just seemed to be forcing his own will on games this time around, instead of taking what came to him. He forced defenses to adjust to him playing in the post, instead of attacking whatever defense was presented to him. He forced defenses to have to completely focus their entire attack on stopping him, giving his teammates more room than ever to work with. THAT is where this year I had seen the biggest difference in Dirk that I hadn't seen before. I felt Dirk was capable of leading a team to a championship prior to this season, but I honestly thought he would need better teammates around him to do so. But the way he enforced his will on the game this year, was the difference maker, and the #1 reason the Mavs not only won, but dominated. If you really want to see the difference he made, check out his own personal plus-minus. The Mavs were pathetic as fuck when he went out of the game, but when he was in the game, they were completely dominant.

The last time I have seen a single player completely dominate an entire playoff run to winning an NBA title the way Dirk did, was the 2003 Timmy. Before that, it had to be MJ.

[Killakobe81]

Co sign

Tought to say top 15 but top 25 is possible.

Now keep in mind I dont rate players I never saw, so to crack my top 25 is a bit easier but wherever Dirk is on my list David is right there. Many on here act as though David should be many spots higher, I don't see it.

[DPG21920]

ROFL

this is pure gold. spurfan at their finest.

"rings only mean something if you have more than one! if you only get one, it means you are as shitty as anyone else!!!!!!!!!"

:lmao

ROFL missing the point completely then saying you and the whole world was wrong about Dirk since he rang although he was past his prime and didn't improve.

Dirk pre-ring in prime: very good player, second tier #1 option, flawed all around game, not considered a top 25 player of all time

Dirk post-ring: No improvement, past his prime, wins ring, #2 pf of all time

Ok.

[Killakobe81]

fwiw, I can understand TO AN EXTENT, what DPG is trying to say here, but its entirely situational. If Dirk were to have won a championship, and was mostly carried by great teammates, then I'd be inclined to say that it wasn't as significant of a championship for that particular player's legacy. For instance, the 2007 championship, IMO isn't as big for Timmy's legacy as the 2003 one was. In 2007, while he was the centerpiece, he many times was outshined by Parker and Ginobili. But in 2003, that was almost 100% Timmy putting the team on his back and elevating their play.

However, in Dirk's case, he flat out put the team on his back, and carried them almost 100% of the time. In the few moments where he was not at his best, they stepped up, which is normal. No player has been borderline perfect in an entire playoff run, not even MJ. But generally, Dirk was far and away the best basketball player in the entire playoff picture. Dirk has almost always been a monster and dominant in the playoffs, especially over the past 3-4 years. But this year in particular, he seemed even more focused than I had ever seen him before, and put the Mavs on his back in a way I had never seen before. Even though he was playing incredibly well in previous years, he just seemed to be forcing his own will on games this time around, instead of taking what came to him. He forced defenses to adjust to him playing in the post, instead of attacking whatever defense was presented to him. He forced defenses to have to completely focus their entire attack on stopping him, giving his teammates more room than ever to work with. THAT is where this year I had seen the biggest difference in Dirk that I hadn't seen before. I felt Dirk was capable of leading a team to a championship prior to this season, but I honestly thought he would need better teammates around him to do so. But the way he enforced his will on the game this year, was the difference maker, and the #1 reason the Mavs not only won, but dominated. If you really want to see the difference he made, check out his own personal plus-minus. The Mavs were pathetic as fuck when he went out of the game, but when he was in the game, they were completely dominant.

The last time I have seen a single player completely dominate an entire playoff run to winning an NBA title the way Dirk did, was the 2003 Timmy. Before that, it had to be MJ.

You had me up until here. cases can be made for Wade, Duncan, Pierce, Kobe, Shaq that made similar runs some more than others. But dirk was amazing. I will say best shooting season I have ever seen from a volume shooter ...ever. When counting regular season through finals.

[Bill_Brasky]

Yes. Dirk stepped up(amazingly) for 1 playoffs. I think when he walked off the court without even celebrating the WCF he made it known that he wasn't being stopped and was already gameplanning for Mimai. I say his legacy is still TBD. If he has another amazing run he jumps plenty of people. If he comes up short again, people will look back and say he got lucky one year.

[stretch]

ROFL missing the point completely then saying you and the whole world was wrong about Dirk since he rang although he was past his prime and didn't improve.

Dirk pre-ring in prime: very good player, second tier #1 option, flawed all around game, not considered a top 25 player of all time

Dirk post-ring: No improvement, past his prime, wins ring, #2 pf of all time

Ok.

He most definitely did improve, and apparently wasn't past his prime as we thought. He developed a post game, and a mentality that he wouldn't be denied. He apparently peaked a little later than most players do, even if it isn't in sync with his physical development.

I had said even prior to the playoff run, that Dirk IMO is arguably the #2 PF of all time. The way he put the Mavs on his back and won a championship just sealed that argument away, because he accomplished generally the same things Barkley, KG, and Malone had... great consistency, won an MVP, and was the #1 option on teams that went deep in the playoffs, but with no championships to show. Dirk did what none of those guys were able to accomplish, which makes it more than deserving for him to be viewed on a greater pedestal than they are.

[stretch]

You had me up until here. cases can be made for Wade, Pierce, Kobe Shaq that made similar runs some more than others. But dirk was amazing. I will say best shooting season I have ever seen from a volume shooter ...ever. When counting regular season through finals.

MAYBE Shaq. But those guys all had series where they were great, and other series where they were either overshadowed by a teammate, or their team was flat out better regardless if they stepped it up or not.

But in every single series the Mavs were in, the difference maker was Dirk being better than the opponents best player, and Dirk was far and away the best player in each series they were in. He didn't have a Shaq, KG, Ray-Ray, Gasol, or Kobe at his side. His best sidekick was a committee of Shawn Marion, Jason Terry, Jason Kidd, and JJ Barea, none of whom are remotely on par with any of those guys.

It's definitely arguable that the opposing teams #1 player on each squad the Mavs faced, had a better supporting cast than Dirk did. Kobe's Lakers and Wade's Heat both unquestionably had what should have been superior supporting cast help. I'd say the Blazers and Thunder were about on par.

[stretch]

If he comes up short again, people will look back and say he got lucky one year.

Depends. If he goes out there and lays an egg, understandable. If he kicks ass, but loses simply to a better team, that's not neccesarily fair.

[FkLA]

HUH?
1. So Mj shoul have points taken away because he beat an aging Lakers or Pistons instead of the prime 80's Lakers, Celtics or sixers?

2. So Dirk beating the defending champ Lakers, the new power Heat and thunder is LESS impressive than beating a young Cavs with Lebron but no wade or Bosh? or Beating the powerhouse NJ Nets? Or a Ewing-less Knicks team? Only run that compares is when you beat the pistons in the finals. Sure the Lakers were on fumes but the Mavs run led by dirk is every bit as impressive as any of the Spur title runs.

3. though no small market, what had Dallas won? As you pointed out many doubted dirk could even carry a team to a ring as the #1 ...he did.

4. I never said how the rings were won or shouldnt be analyzed but only the land of wizards, tongue rings, D&D and calf tats would anyone argue that Kobe/duncan or Dirk/David is not at least close enough to debate. So I think if it's close ring counts is the deciding factor. You do not. that is cool.

*BTW ...no i dont think Horry is better than Malone becuase he has more rings. that is stupid. Malone is miles better. it's only when the debate is close do rings matter.

*Just waiting for a dumbass to bring up Horry or john Salley ...

I agree that Kobe and Duncan are both all-time greats. There's no huge gap between the two.

Rings can definitely be the deciding factor in that case, my issue is that you turn to rings as the deciding factor without analyzing them. Sure 5>4 numerically, but once analyzed I think 4 at Gonzaga is a greater feat than 5 at North Carolina...wouldnt you agree?

[Bill_Brasky]

Depends. If he goes out there and lays an egg, understandable. If he kicks ass, but loses simply to a better team, that's not neccesarily fair.

True. The way he played last playoffs he seems like he's not gonna just go down to some scrubs like he did in '07.....he's gonna get deep and if anybody beats him, it's simply because they're better.

[Killakobe81]

He most definitely did improve, and apparently wasn't past his prime as we thought. He developed a post game, and a mentality that he wouldn't be denied. He apparently peaked a little later than most players do, even if it isn't in sync with his physical development.

I had said even prior to the playoff run, that Dirk IMO is arguably the #2 PF of all time. The way he put the Mavs on his back and won a championship just sealed that argument away, because he accomplished generally the same things Barkley, KG, and Malone had... great consistency, won an MVP, and was the #1 option on teams that went deep in the playoffs, but with no championships to show. Dirk did what none of those guys were able to accomplish, which makes it more than deserving for him to be viewed on a greater pedestal than they are.

This is where you lose me ...for now. Like i said if it is close, rings should decide it. Not sure you can say Malone and Dirk are close ....yet. If you ask me who I prefer, it's dirk cuz he is clutch. But who should be ranked higher is Malone even sans ring. If dirk gets close production wise, than yes the ring will move him above Karl. But for now, but I can't co-sign that yet. Probably same with chuck. I prefer winners but right now the body of work favors those guys over Dirk.

[FkLA]

I had said even prior to the playoff run, that Dirk IMO is arguably the #2 PF of all time.

This nigga just wont stop with his ridiculously homerish takes. :lmao

[Killakobe81]

I agree that Kobe and Duncan are both all-time greats. There's no huge gap between the two.

Rings can definitely be the deciding factor in that case, my issue is that you turn to rings as the deciding factor without analyzing them. Sure 5>4 numerically, but once analyzed I think 4 at Gonzaga is a greater feat than 5 at North Carolina...wouldnt you agree?

i agree to an extent. But not totally. if we play that game the Spurs only beat one elite team in the finals. (3 peat Lakers none but had a brutal West)

So I dont think we should go down that road. And that may help in Kobe vs. duncan but when going dirk vs. David doesnt Dirk face the same issues EXCEPT market size?

So does the Packers title mean more than the Patriots? Maybe a better story but a ring is a ring.

[Killakobe81]

Also KG slightly over Dirk. Argued with a Mavs fan at work before dirk closed out Heat, not sure if I take dirk over KG. It's close ... but i think KG's all-around game and resume trumps dirk ...for now.

1. they have same ring count and KG was at least the co #1 on that team.
2. He has 1 MVP like Dirk
3. both have 2 finals appearances. Very close.

[FkLA]

i agree to an extent. But not totally. if we play that game the Spurs only beat one elite team in the finals. (3 peat Lakers none but had a brutal West)

So I dont think we should go down that road. And that may help in Kobe vs. duncan but when going dirk vs. David doesnt Dirk face the same issues EXCEPT market size?

So does the Packers title mean more than the Patriots? Maybe a better story but a ring is a ring.

What does the quality of the Finals teams have to do with how great of a feat winning 4 at Gonzaga is? Especially since Duncan played in the same era as Kobe, where the quality of the Eastern teams was just as bad for LA as it was for SA in the Finals. A ring is a ring, but the difficulty of obtaining one can vary alot. Its much easier to win one in LA than SA.

As far as the original argument... Dirk had a bigger payroll, and thus better savvy vets that stepped up big in the playoffs. Something Robinson never had. Thats a pretty important difference imo. Robinson does just as bad in the playoffs even with an owner with deeper pockets resulting in better teammates? Does Dirk ring with lesser teammates? When you use stretch logic ( Dirk 1> Davey 0) your basically answering yes to both those questions, which is retarded.

[TD 21]

dirk > davey

keep crying faggot

this is a fact

Way to cop out.

It's a fact, how? Because some dumb, whiny, defensive, overly sensitive, immature, racist hick thinks so? You're a joke.

[stretch]

Way to cop out.

It's a fact, how? Because some dumb, whiny, defensive, overly sensitive, immature, racist hick thinks so? You're a joke.

hi faggot

[TD 21]

:cry:cry Dirk is the greatest player ever, because he scores lots of points, he plays for my favorite team and most importantly, he's white! :cry:cry

[Veterinarian.]

lol td 21 with no credibility. You got shit on all over during the playoffs.

[Duncan2177]

lol ambchang thinking hes clever and witty when he really is just a retarded bag of shit

Grow up

[stretch]

im gay

[FkLA]

I had said even prior to the playoff run, that Dirk IMO is arguably the #2 PF of all time.

[stretch]

dirk > davey

facts are facts

[Giuseppe]

True. The way he played last playoffs he seems like he's not gonna just go down to some scrubs like he did in '07.....he's gonna get deep and if anybody beats him, it's simply because they're better.

& because then it'd be fair.

tee, hee.

[Nathan89]

I agree. But Spur fan (some) likes to switch their debates to suit their case. Prior to Kobe/Dirk ringing winning was why duncan was better. Numbers disnt tell the whole story. Then when PER and especially win shares said duncan was amazing they latched there. But now that 5>4 (kobe/tim) or 1>0 (dirk/david) the rings don't matter. Im with you Stretch, if the two players are CLOSE just as Kobe/duncan and Dirk/David are, then the rings should end the debate. Just like it does for duncan/malone.

For the record I also take Duncan over Karl but if the rings were even or close I would consider going the other way and I despise Malone. But the man could play he is just not clutch.

Lets just forget the fact that Kobe was the second best player on his team for his rings.

Or the fact that he has the luxury of playing on a team that can afford to keep more talent then the Spurs.

Lakeretard :lmao

[Nathan89]

Dirk couldn't win a ring if he had the teams David did.(during the same years as David)


On another note:
I have said that Dirk was the #2 Pf of all-time but now after thinking of this comparison I am not so sure. This thread has made me reconsider where I would rank Dirk on the Pf list.

[stretch]

Dirk couldn't win a ring if he had the teams David did.(during the same years as David)


On another note:
I have said that Dirk was the #2 Pf of all-time but now after thinking of this comparison I am not so sure. This thread has made me reconsider where I would rank Dirk on the Pf list.

dirk > davey

[Nathan89]

So you think Dirk would have won on the teams David had?

[stretch]

So you think Dirk would have won on the teams David had?

honestly don't know. impossible to tell as they havent had a chance to play with each others teammates.

what I do know is, both guys had a team without any all-stars, but was good enough to win lots of games, get a good seeding, be very successful statistically all-around, and go far in the playoffs.

Dirk took that caliber of squad and won a championship. Davey didn't.

Dirk > Davey

[ulosturedge]

Dirks teammates finally stepped the fuck up and quit being pussies. Specifically Terry. Then Barea turned into wonder burrito. Kidd was puttin down the 3's also. Everything came together alot like the Spurs first championship. Everything was clicking. Everyone fed of each other.

That was the difference. The REST of your team actually stepped the fuck up after years of choking. That never happened for David until Duncan came along of course.

Not to mention David played through a lot of shitty coaches. Bob Hill, Jerry Tarkanian, John Lucas, Bob Bass, ect. The Larry Brown days was probably his best shot but that was in David's early years. He never got enough support. He had teammates that were either streaky or one dimensional and none of them were ever clutch. You lived and died with Robinson. Double and triple teams nobody ever made them pay.

Hakeem had Kenny Smith and Horry sinkin dagger after dagger making teams pay. Shit even Mario Elie joined in the fun.

[Giuseppe]

Dirks teammates finally stepped the fuck up and quit being pussies. Specifically Terry. Then Barea turned into wonder burrito. Kidd was puttin down the 3's also. Everything came together .

Dirk too finally stepped up & quit being a pussy.

& I called Barea. I was the only one.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

You also called Turkoglu, Warrick and Childress

[Giuseppe]

You also called Turkoglu, Warrick and Childress

Let's just fuck. Okay?

[Veterinarian.]

Hope your ass gets banned soon. Your schtick is lame now and does nothing to this forum.

[Giuseppe]

^Though that didn't stop you from accessing my page & propositioning me for naughties.

tee, hee.

[Veterinarian.]

True tbh you got me. Although I thought I was still logged into Lincoln before I found it it was banned :cry

[Giuseppe]

True tbh you got me.

lmvictoriousao!!!

[Veterinarian.]

:lol

Tbh you should write an autobiography

[Killakobe81]

Lets just forget the fact that Kobe was the second best player on his team for his rings.

Or the fact that he has the luxury of playing on a team that can afford to keep more talent then the Spurs.

Lakeretard :lmao

A sure sign of someone losing an argument, resorting to name calling! :lmao

Step your game up, son.

"i adopted Nathan, Phillip Drummoned him" ... :ihit

[ambchang]

I really don't get ambchangs real issue.

Is his issue the fact that myself and others are putting a great emphasis on winning? That's basically what it appears to be.

So winning suddenly isn't that important anymore?

Okay.

If you really want to boil it down, yes, I don't think team accomplishments should be greatly emphasized in individual comparisons.

Some players have better luck than others, while some players are just easier to build around than others. Kareem, Duncan, Russell Bird and Magic are easy players to build around, Dirk, Robinson and a few others are not. Why should players be penalized for the incompetence of their organizations?

As for your earlier comment around Elliott, Person and Del Negro being dead-eye outside shooters. I don't agree with it. I do agree that Elliott and Person are accurate shooters from the perimeter, but they don't have enough volume, Del Negro just sucked, he was like Hedo in 04, great in regular season, horrible in the post season, only Del Negro was much much worse than Hedo.