So Holder lied to congress...will they go after him like they did Nolan Ryan?

[CosmicCowboy]

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20115038-10391695.html

WASHINGTON - New documents obtained by CBS News show Attorney General Eric Holder was sent briefings on the controversial Fast and Furious operation as far back as July 2010. That directly contradicts his statement to Congress.

On May 3, 2011, Holder told a Judiciary Committee hearing, "I'm not sure of the exact date, but I probably heard about Fast and Furious for the first time over the last few weeks."

Yet internal Justice Department documents show that at least ten months before that hearing, Holder began receiving frequent memos discussing Fast and Furious.

The documents came from the head of the National Drug Intelligence Center and Assistant Attorney General Lanny Breuer.

In Fast and Furious, ATF agents allegedly allowed thousands of weapons to cross the border and fall into the hands of Mexican drug cartels.

It's called letting guns "walk," and it remained secret to the public until Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry was murdered last December. Two guns from Fast and Furious were found at the scene, and ATF agent John Dodson blew the whistle on the operation.

Ever since, the Justice Department has publicly tried to distance itself. But the new documents leave no doubt that high level Justice officials knew guns were being "walked."

Two Justice Department officials mulled it over in an email exchange Oct. 18, 2010. "It's a tricky case given the number of guns that have walked but is a significant set of prosecutions," says Jason Weinstein, Deputy Assistant Attorney General of the Criminal Division. Deputy Chief of the National Gang Unit James Trusty replies "I'm not sure how much grief we get for 'guns walking.' It may be more like, "Finally they're going after people who sent guns down there."

The Justice Department told CBS News that the officials in those emails were talking about a different case started before Eric Holder became Attorney General. And tonight they tell CBS News, Holder misunderstood that question from the committee - he did know about Fast and Furious - just not the details.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

"headwinds"

[elbamba]

Did you mean Roger Clemmens?

[ElNono]

Did you mean Bill Clinton?

[clambake]

i guess he could use the "i don't recall" defense.

[CosmicCowboy]

Did you mean Roger Clemmens?

Yeah, Clemens.

oops

Steroids in baseball is SO much more important than our Federal government giving thousands of guns to the Mexican drug cartels.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I think we can all agree the government made WAY too big a deal out of steroids in baseball

[clambake]

I think we can all agree the government made WAY too big a deal out of steroids in baseball

back in the day...americans bitched and moaned about the east germans.

[boutons_deux]

"thousands of guns"

probably bought those guns from NRA members, it's all about the $$$.

[George Gervin's Afro]

I could have sworn a previous administration received a memo about planes flying into buidlings prior to planes flying into buildings...

then the administration claimed it had no prior warning when in fact they had

..and the same right wingers were silent back then...and now they are outraged by memos and stuff..

just sayin

[CosmicCowboy]

I could have sworn a previous administration received a memo about planes flying into buidlings prior to planes flying into buildings...

then the administration claimed it had no prior warning when in fact they had

..and the same right wingers were silent back then...and now they are outraged by memos and stuff..

just sayin

What a fucking idiot

[ChumpDumper]

lol Nolan Ryan

[George Gervin's Afro]

What a fucking idiot

lol nolan ryan..

[George Gervin's Afro]

What a fucking idiot



"The weekly reports (100 + pages) are provided to the office of the AG and (deputy attorney general) each week from approximately 24 offices and components. These are routine reports that provide general overviews and status updates on issues, policies, cases and investigations from offices and components across the country. None of these reports referenced the controversial tactics of that allowed guns to cross the border," the official said.


lol idiot

[CosmicCowboy]

lol idiot

lol gullible koolaid drinking idiot

[elbamba]

I like Nolan Ryan. He was a great home run hitter.

[LnGrrrR]

While I don't agree with anyone lying, I'd say his "I'm not sure of the exact date" covers him.

Especially since Abu Gonzalez was able to say, "I don't recall" four thousand times and get away scot-free.

[Yonivore]

While I don't agree with anyone lying, I'd say his "I'm not sure of the exact date" covers him.
It was the part, following that statement, where he said; "...a few weeks ago," when, in fact, it had been ten months.


Especially since Abu Gonzalez was able to say, "I don't recall" four thousand times and get away scot-free.
So, AG Gonzalez is smarter than AG Holder. Your point?

[LnGrrrR]

It was the part, following that statement, where he said; "...a few weeks ago," when, in fact, it had been ten months.

Hence the statement, "I'm not sure", and then the further, "probably heard about it".



So, AG Gonzalez is smarter than AG Holder. Your point?

Highly debatable. Anyways, "I'm not sure" is nearly the same as saying, "I don't recall" in this instance. If you ask me what my wife had for breakfast a week ago, and I say, "Eggs" when it happened to be pancakes, it doesn't mean I'm deliberately lying.

All that said, Holder probably was lying. I just don't think you could use any statement that says, "I'm not sure" and then try to convict him on it, anymore than you could convict Abu for saying, "I don't recall" a hundred times.

[Yonivore]

Hence the statement, "I'm not sure", and then the further, "probably heard about it".

Highly debatable. Anyways, "I'm not sure" is nearly the same as saying, "I don't recall" in this instance.
At least Gonzalez didn't qualify the remark with a time frame. There's the stupidity.


If you ask me what my wife had for breakfast a week ago, and I say, "Eggs" when it happened to be pancakes, it doesn't mean I'm deliberately lying.
Only if you genuinely thought it was eggs. If you didn't know and said, "eggs" because you didn't think it mattered and, in fact, it turned out to be "pancakes." I say you lied.


All that said, Holder probably was lying. I just don't think you could use any statement that says, "I'm not sure" and then try to convict him on it, anymore than you could convict Abu for saying, "I don't recall" a hundred times.
I don't think all the facts are out. It appears the July 2010 memorandum that put the lie to his "few weeks ago" qualifier was just the beginning of a long run of updates and briefings in which the Fast and Furious "gunwalking" practice was mentioned.

In other words, if you establish "Fast and Furious" was something that routinely crossed the AG's desk for a period of 10 months, I'd say claiming you'd only heard about it a "few weeks ago," is a blatant lie.

How do you prove, "I don't recall," is a lie?

[Liar]

I wonder if yoni or CC has ever told a lie? Nah, their conservative views will not allow them to lie.

[Yonivore]

I wonder if yoni or CC has ever told a lie? Nah, their conservative views will not allow them to lie.
Sure I lie; but, I don't do it under oath.

[Liar]

Sure I lie; but, I don't do it under oath.

But you are a liar. Hypocrite.

[boutons_deux]

If only Yoni had been all over the Repug lies before the Iraq war with the intensity he brings to sleuthing the Dems, he'd be able to say that he discovered the lies rather than defending his sorry ass by saying there were no lies and the Iraq was fully justified.

[LnGrrrR]

Only if you genuinely thought it was eggs. If you didn't know and said, "eggs" because you didn't think it mattered and, in fact, it turned out to be "pancakes." I say you lied.

I think "lying" in this case requires a deliberate attempt at falsification.

Note: I think Holder lied above, I just don't think it's enough "proof" to get him. It's not like he said, "Definitely X time".


I don't think all the facts are out. It appears the July 2010 memorandum that put the lie to his "few weeks ago" qualifier was just the beginning of a long run of updates and briefings in which the Fast and Furious "gunwalking" practice was mentioned.


In other words, if you establish "Fast and Furious" was something that routinely crossed the AG's desk for a period of 10 months, I'd say claiming you'd only heard about it a "few weeks ago," is a blatant lie.

Fair enough.


How do you prove, "I don't recall," is a lie?

Well, one could use common sense. If one was an attorney general, you'd think they had some idea of what was actually going on in his office. That said, it IS hard to say he's lying without direct proof he "remembered" in another instance.

So instead of a liar, he just looks like a bumbling incompetent fool.

[Yonivore]

So instead of a liar, he just looks like a bumbling incompetent fool.
Sure had the President's foes apoplectic, didn't it?

President Obama has adopted most of President Bush's foreign policy agenda, with respect to the war on terror, the majority of which, I believe, was developed under the counsel of Alberto Gonzalez's Justice Department.

Some incompetent.

[Yonivore]

I think "lying" in this case requires a deliberate attempt at falsification.
On the "egg vs. pancake" lie; I think I could argue your "egg" answer was a deliberate lie because, you answered "egg" when it was "pancake."

In your response, if you used some rationale to arrive at "egg," like saying, "my wife usually has eggs for breakfast," or "Tuesday is egg day so, I'm pretty sure it was eggs," I think you're safe. But, in your example, you didn't do that. You simply answered "egg."

To just answer "egg," instead of saying "I don't know," or "I don't recall" when, in fact, you don't know or recall, is a lie.

It's the certitude of your answer that gets you in trouble. On the other hand, being wrong, after demonstrating some rationale in arriving at the wrong answer, would work in your favor.

[Yonivore]

And, one more thing. I'm pretty sure they convicted Scooter Libby of lying to federal investigators after the claimed not to remember something.

[LnGrrrR]

President Obama has adopted most of President Bush's foreign policy agenda, with respect to the war on terror, the majority of which, I believe, was developed under the counsel of Alberto Gonzalez's Justice Department.

Some incompetent.

I don't see how it could've been developed under his counsel, since he seemingly didn't know anything about his job, or what his staff was doing. Developed in spite of him, perhaps.

[Wild Cobra]

And, one more thing. I'm pretty sure they convicted Scooter Libby of lying to federal investigators after the claimed not to remember something.
I still think that's because he knew Valarie by only one of three references about her. But... the liberals wanted someone convicted.

[LnGrrrR]

On the "egg vs. pancake" lie; I think I could argue your "egg" answer was a deliberate lie because, you answered "egg" when it was "pancake."

In your response, if you used some rationale to arrive at "egg," like saying, "my wife usually has eggs for breakfast," or "Tuesday is egg day so, I'm pretty sure it was eggs," I think you're safe. But, in your example, you didn't do that. You simply answered "egg."

To just answer "egg," instead of saying "I don't know," or "I don't recall" when, in fact, you don't know or recall, is a lie.

It's the certitude of your answer that gets you in trouble. On the other hand, being wrong, after demonstrating some rationale in arriving at the wrong answer, would work in your favor.

Agreed. So, if I answered, "I'm not sure, but she probably had eggs" then I would likely be safe. I think the same applies to Holder's statement. If, as you stated, more evidence comes out that he saw it multiple times and there's no way he could have not known, then that changes the situation.

[Yonivore]

I don't see how it could've been developed under his counsel, since he seemingly didn't know anything about his job, or what his staff was doing. Developed in spite of him, perhaps.
Whatever you like; I don't think it matters one whit to Alberto Gonzalez. Holder has a real issue on his hands with this "gunwalking" scandal and, it's not likely to go away...no matter how hard you try and conflate his circumstances with those of the previous Attorney General.

Alberto Gonzalez, on the other hand, seems to be enjoying life again.

[TeyshaBlue]

Yeah, Clemens.

oops


Dammit. I want to see Ryan put congress in a headlock and pound the shit out of them.:lol

[Yonivore]

Agreed. So, if I answered, "I'm not sure, but she probably had eggs" then I would likely be safe. I think the same applies to Holder's statement. If, as you stated, more evidence comes out that he saw it multiple times and there's no way he could have not known, then that changes the situation.
Well, we could get into the whole aspect of you're talking about what your wife had for breakfast versus what you had for breakfast.

If the question had been, when did President Obama first hear about the "Fast and Furious" gunwalking fiasco, you'd have a point. But, we're talking about Holder's first-hand knowledge of when he became aware. I think qualifying his "I'm not sure" with "probably a few weeks ago," is pretty weak.

[LnGrrrR]

Whatever you like; I don't think it matters one whit to Alberto Gonzalez. Holder has a real issue on his hands with this "gunwalking" scandal and, it's not likely to go away...no matter how hard you try and conflate his circumstances with those of the previous Attorney General.

Not trying to conflate. Just saying, on the basis of what Holder said and the evidence revealed so far, I don't think it's enough to convict him of lying.


Alberto Gonzalez, on the other hand, seems to be enjoying life again.

What's he doing now? Working somewhere else where he has no clue what's going on? :D

[Yonivore]

Of course, antics like this aren't helping the administration's case...

CBS News Reporter Says White House Screamed, Swore at Her Over Fast and Furious (http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/cbs-news-reporter-says-white-house-screamed-swore-her-over-fast-and-furious_595011.html)


CBS News investigative journalist Sharyl Attkisson -- who's been covering the scandal from the beginning -- says in an interview on the Laura Ingraham Show today that the White House and Justice Department have taken to screaming at her for reporting on the story.

[LnGrrrR]

If the question had been, when did President Obama first hear about the "Fast and Furious" gunwalking fiasco, you'd have a point. But, we're talking about Holder's first-hand knowledge of when he became aware. I think qualifying his "I'm not sure" with "probably a few weeks ago," is pretty weak.

I agree it's pretty weak. But since his statement was so wishy-washy, I don't think you can get him on lying, unless you could produce enough evidence that it would have been damn near impossible to not be aware of the situation.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Can you quote the specific lie? And if its the part where he says "probably" and "I'm not sure" then you need to punch yourself in the face.

Its obvious lawyer speak but that is the whole point of it, you create plausible deniability. Keep on parroting GOP spin though please.

Really what should happen is the head of the ATF and the direct supervisors of the program need to be fired. This criminality nonsense trying to pin it on political opponents is just two party political nonsense.

Its precisely that type of approach and you giving credence to it that makes me think you are unable to come up with an original thought.

One thing that is troubling is that they are going to such desperate measures because it implies that they have very little real intelligence on the cartels. Its also obvious by the cartels attacks on journalists and bloggers that they want to keep it that way.

I have a solution. Decriminalize drugs but the law and order crowd that you and your GOP mouthpieces normally side with are waging a massive campaign to prevent. I for example still want to know where the figure of 20% of Americans smoke pot comes from other than the fraternal order of police mouthpieces.

Regardless you keep on turning on your own. it just makes me realize that having only two groups to represent this country is a fucking joke.

[Yonivore]

I agree it's pretty weak. But since his statement was so wishy-washy, I don't think you can get him on lying, unless you could produce enough evidence that it would have been damn near impossible to not be aware of the situation.
Fair enough; I think we've beaten the dead horse.

[LnGrrrR]

Fair enough; I think we've beaten the dead horse.

To be honest, I'm pretty sure the horse died at the egg/pancake analogy. :lol

[Yonivore]

Can you quote the specific lie? And if its the part where he says "probably" and "I'm not sure" then you need to punch yourself in the face.

Its obvious lawyer speak but that is the whole point of it, you create plausible deniability. Keep on parroting GOP spin though please.

Really what should happen is the head of the ATF and the direct supervisors of the program need to be fired. This criminality nonsense trying to pin it on political opponents is just two party political nonsense.
You make a good point, Fuzzy. It just so happens, DOJ has reassigned the ATF agents, in charge of Fast and Furious, to inaccessible jobs in Washington -- which, as I understand it, resulted in pay raises. Only whistleblowers have suffered any punishment.

Another brick in the wall making it look more and more like a coverup. Not to mention all the stalling on FOIA requests, Friday night information dumps, etc...


Its precisely that type of approach and you giving credence to it that makes me think you are unable to come up with an original thought.

One thing that is troubling is that they are going to such desperate measures because it implies that they have very little real intelligence on the cartels. Its also obvious by the cartels attacks on journalists and bloggers that they want to keep it that way.

I have a solution. Decriminalize drugs but the law and order crowd that you and your GOP mouthpieces normally side with are waging a massive campaign to prevent. I for example still want to know where the figure of 20% of Americans smoke pot comes from other than the fraternal order of police mouthpieces.

Regardless you keep on turning on your own. it just makes me realize that having only two groups to represent this country is a fucking joke.
Okay, way to run off the rails there.

[Yonivore]

To be honest, I'm pretty sure the horse died at the egg/pancake analogy. :lol
Quite possibly but, continuing to beat it, we did.

[LnGrrrR]

You make a good point, Fuzzy. It just so happens, DOJ has reassigned the ATF agents, in charge of Fast and Furious, to inaccessible jobs in Washington -- which, as I understand it, resulted in pay raises. Only whistleblowers have suffered any punishment.

It's funny, but Obama was all about whistleblowers when he was campaigning. Then, when he gets into office, he is worse than Bush when it comes to protecting whistleblowers. Pretty pathetic.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Okay, way to run off the rails there.

Everything i wrote has to do with the subject matter here. That you have to stay on rails to keep up is the most telling. You need to be spoonfed your politics.

[Yonivore]

Everything i wrote has to do with the subject matter here. That you have to stay on rails to keep up is the most telling. You need to be spoonfed your politics.
Now you're going all boutons on me. Nice.

Whether or not your extended comments in the post were germane to the discussion is not your determination, alone, to make. But, damn it, I defend to the death your right to be irrelevant.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Now you're going all boutons on me. Nice.

Whether or not your extended comments in the post were germane to the discussion is not your determination, alone, to make. But, damn it, I defend to the death your right to be irrelevant.

There is a reason that I treat the both of you the same.

You have your little crusade that you got from a GOP mouthpiece to witchhunt for a democrat. You need to eat your feedback. You alone are not the one who gets to decide what is discussed. you are just upset because I went on a course that was not your witchunt.

[Yonivore]

There is a reason that I treat the both of you the same.
You obviously misunderstood the boutons reference.


You have your little crusade that you got from a GOP mouthpiece to witchhunt for a democrat. You need to eat your feedback. You alone are not the one who gets to decide what is discussed. you are just upset because I went on a course that was not your witchunt.
I'm not upset. In fact, I'm not even sure on what course you are embarked. But, carry on.

[baseline bum]

Dammit. I want to see Ryan put congress in a headlock and pound the shit out of them.:lol

:rollin

[boutons_deux]

AP sources: Bush-era probe involved guns 'walking'

By PETE YOST, Associated Press – 6 hours ago

WASHINGTON (AP) — The federal government under the Bush administration ran an operation that allowed hundreds of guns to be transferred to suspected arms traffickers — the same tactic that congressional Republicans have criticized President Barack Obama's administration for using, two federal law enforcement officials said Tuesday.

Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., Sen. Chuck Grassley, R-Iowa, and other Republicans have been hammering the Obama Justice Department over the practice known as "letting guns walk." The congressional target has been Operation Fast and Furious, which was designed to track small-time gun buyers at several Phoenix-area gun shops up the chain to make cases against major weapons traffickers. In the process, federal agents lost track of many of the more than 2,000 guns linked to the operation.

When Bush, a Republican, was president, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives in Tucson, Ariz., used a similar enforcement tactic in a program it called Operation Wide Receiver. The fact that there were two such ATF investigations years apart in separate administrations raises the possibility that agents in still other cases may have allowed guns to "walk."

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jJ_0RC29mA0_cz7UXWAE_y2dWikA?docId=09d6fa8b4 c7a44089382e04b303ad45c

====

Come on, Yoni, tell how it's ok when your lover boy dubya does it, but we gotta imprison Barry's guys.

[Jamtas#2]

I nominate the congressman/congresswoman who has not been involved in deceiving the american public to lead the questioning here

Love the outrage they have when they are lied to - don't tend to buy the "i don't recall" or "technically speaking..." arguments when used on them huh?