Best #2s of all time

[ambchang]

#1 – Kobe Bryant
This one is pretty obvious, nobody plays the second fiddle quite like Kobe. He opened up the lane for Shaq, he scored a huge amount of points off of Shaq doubles. Only if he could learn to pass the ball to the main man, he would be that much better.

#2 – Magic Johnson / Kareem Abdul Jabbar
It’s kind of unclear, they could have been co #1s, but if you have to really have a #2, they are pretty interchangeable. Magic won the Finals MVP as the #2, Kareem played amazing ball in 85 playoffs as the #2.

#3 – Kevin McHale
One of the best low post player in the history of the league, and one of the premier defenders, McHale could easily be a playoff team’s #1.

#4 – Scottie Pippen
The best thing about Pippen is that he knew he was a #2, but if you are playing next to Jordan, I guess everybody would realise this. Pippen is one of the best perimeter defenders of all time, and can really direct an offense. He can score from inside and out, rebound, defend, pass. He fills in the gaps for that entire Bulls team

[Leetonidas]

Good list. But Magic was the man in LA imo he made the entire offense work

[stretch]

failed troll attempt by ambchang

:td

[DeadlyDynasty]

lol ambchang

[Veterinarian.]

lol ambchang

[stretch]

lol ambchang

[Monostradamus]

lol ambchang

[Nathan89]

Magic/Kareem have both led their team in TS%(during a championship season). So they don't belong on the list, imho.

The list starts off strong...

[InK]

Kobe clearly GOAT of #2's, as long as that greatest sidekick of all time gets his then the rest aint really that important.

2.) Pippen
3.) Malone
4.) McHale

[ambchang]

I thought about Karl Malone, but he never won a championship.

I should have left room for Dr. J somewhere in there, maybe the 5th best #2 of all time.

[LkrFan]

failed troll attempt by ambchang

:td

:lol

[Deuce Bigalow]

You got to add Duncan in there aswell, great #2 in 2005 and 2007

[MR.SILVER&BLack]

You got to add Duncan in there aswell, great #2 in 2005 and 2007
nope he was great as #1 in 99 & 03 but kobe sure does deserve this with his work as 2nd banana in 00-02, 09, & 2010.:toast

[Giuseppe]

That's why:::

Kobe: 5

the shit bag: 4

is so satisfying.

[Leetonidas]

You got to add Duncan in there aswell, great #2 in 2005 and 2007

http://images.pictureshunt.com/pics/f/fail-14138.jpg

[MR.SILVER&BLack]

That's why:::

Kobe: 5

the shit bag: 4

is so satisfying.
well the ring argument really doesnt make sense for this thread due to the fact that is

pippen: 6

tired old shit bag rapist: 5

but kobe is the greatest 2nd banana off all time. after he got rid of shaq he realized LA wasnt gonna do shit with him as the man so as a good little 2nd banana he went out and found himself a new man for him to backup.

[Deuce Bigalow]

http://images.pictureshunt.com/pics/f/fail-14138.jpg

2005, Manu played better than Duncan in the Finals and playoffs
2007, Parker played better in Finals and won Finals MVP

[MR.SILVER&BLack]

2005, Manu played better than Duncan in the Finals and playoffs
2007, Parker played better in Finals and won Finals MVP
oh you mean how kobe was outplayed by shaq from 00-02 & gasol from 09 & 2010. i think see your point.:wakeup

[Deuce Bigalow]

oh you mean how kobe was outplayed by shaq from 00-02 & gasol from 09 & 2010. i think see your point.:wakeup

If your on crack

[Giuseppe]

pippen: 6

tired old shit bag rapist: 5

Fine. You take that one. I'm stayin' with:::

Kobe: 5

the shit bag: 4

[Leetonidas]

2005, Manu played better than Duncan in the Finals and playoffs
2007, Parker played better in Finals and won Finals MVP

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

[Leetonidas]

oh you mean how kobe was outplayed by shaq from 00-02 & gasol from 09 & 2010. i think see your point.:wakeup

Yeah Gasol delivered them. He was the only thing keeping Kobe's 40% shooting from sinking their title hoops. lol 6-24 in a Finals clinching game :lmao

[Giuseppe]

...though Gasol couldn't win a single playoff game till Kobe took him in.

[Leetonidas]

And Kobe couldn't even win a single playoff series til Gasol took him in

:lol choking up 3-1
:lol quitting

[Giuseppe]

...though Kobe won two without Daddy, and Gasol couldn't win a single playoff game without Kobe.

The constant? Kobe.

[MR.SILVER&BLack]

...though Gasol couldn't win a single playoff game till Kobe took him in.
to be fair before gasol was gifted to LA he was alone in memphis and got stuck going up against the player of the decade......Tim Duncan. when kobe was alone he got stuck agaisnt.......steve nash.

[Giuseppe]

to be fair before gasol was gifted to LA he was alone in memphis and got stuck going up against the player of the decade......Tim Duncan. when kobe was alone he got stuck agaisnt.......steve nash.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Blah, blah, blah. The fact remains:::Gasol couldn't win a single playoff game till Kobe took him in.

[MR.SILVER&BLack]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Blah, blah, blah. The fact remains:::Gasol couldn't win a single playoff game till Kobe took him in.
Blah, bLah, blah, blah. The fact remains::: Kobe couldnt get pasted Nash till Gasol took him. :toast

[MR.SILVER&BLack]

wonder whos gonna get kobe a win in the playoffs over dirk?

[Giuseppe]

Blah, bLah, blah, blah. The fact remains::: Kobe couldnt get pasted Nash till Gasol took him. :toast

Though Gasol couldn't win a single playoff game till Kobe took him in.

[MR.SILVER&BLack]

Though Gasol couldn't win a single playoff game till Kobe took him in.
True but gasol would have eventually gotten a win in the playoffs. didnt look like kobe was ever gonna get pasted nash & the "defensive juggernaut" Suns.

[Leetonidas]

...though Kobe won two without Daddy, and Gasol couldn't win a single playoff game without Kobe.

The constant? Kobe.

But Shaq won without Kobe. If anything it proves that Kobe + great big man = title. Kobe alone = assraping in the 1st round/missing the playoffs/crying to be traded

[Giuseppe]

But Shaq won without Kobe. If anything it proves that Kobe + great big man = title. Kobe alone = assraping in the 1st round/missing the playoffs/crying to be traded

But Kobe won two without Daddy. Daddy only one one without Kobe. & Kobe retired Daddy at that deficit.

[Giuseppe]

True but gasol would have eventually gotten a win in the playoffs.

Yeah, once Kobe took him in.

[Leetonidas]

But Kobe won two without Daddy. Daddy only one one without Kobe. & Kobe retired Daddy at that deficit.

0 minus Daddy/MVPau

[Giuseppe]

0 minus Daddy/MVPau

Though Gasol couldn't win a single playoff game till Kobe took him.

[MR.SILVER&BLack]

Yeah, once Kobe took him in.
well like i stated its alot easier to win a game in the playoffs then get pasted a team in the playoffs. thank god Gasol was their to carry kobe over Nash & the "defensive juggernaut" Suns. didnt look like kobe was ever gonna be able to say " i beat Steve Nash".

[Giuseppe]

well like i stated its alot easier to win a game in the playoffs

Though Gasol couldn't do that until Kobe took him in.

[Deuce Bigalow]

you dumbass spurs fans

Lakers were 30-16 in 2007-08 before the Gasol trade, best record in the Western Conference

Then Kobe led them to the Finals without a All Star or All NBA teammate (Gasol didnt make any of the teams), or their Starting Center (Bynum was injured the whole run)

[Deuce Bigalow]

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

everything I said was true

[MR.SILVER&BLack]

Though Gasol couldn't do that until Kobe took him in.
to be fair gasol could have left to the east & won with a game with any team over their. only a select few had the ability to take kobes failed hero attempts and carry him across Nash & the "defensive juggernaut" Suns.

[MR.SILVER&BLack]

you dumbass spurs fans

Lakers were 30-16 in 2007-08 before the Gasol trade, best record in the Western Conference

Then Kobe led them to the Finals without a All Star or All NBA teammate (Gasol didnt make any of the teams), or their Starting Center (Bynum was injured the whole run)
to be fair gasol was stuck in the west trying to get a spot going against TD, KG, & Dirk. Kind if impossible really.

still without gasol taking charge kobe would have ran into the brick wall of Nash "defensive juggernaut" Suns.

[Deuce Bigalow]

to be fair gasol was stuck in the west trying to get a spot going against TD, KG, & Dirk. Kind if impossible really.

still without gasol taking charge kobe would have ran into the brick wall of Nash "defensive juggernaut" Suns.

1. KG was in Boston dumbass, which is in the East
2. Lakers were 30-16 without Gasol, and had the best record in the West, so even without him they would have had HCA throughout the Western Conf. Playoffs
3. That "defensive juggernaut" Suns team swept the Spurs in 2010 :lol

[MR.SILVER&BLack]

1. KG was in Boston dumbass, which is in the East
2. Lakers were 30-16 without Gasol, and had the best record, so even without him they would have had HCA throughout the Western Conf. Playoffs
3. That "defensive juggernaut" Suns team swept the Spurs in 2010 :lol
1. Gasol entered the NBA in 2001. you stated he never made the allstar team until he became a laker. i was simply letting you know their really where no spots open for him till KG left.

2. yes the lakers would have had HCA all thru the playoffs soley to due them being 30-16 half way thru the season.:rolleyes

3. True but thats because the spurs just got thru betting down the same mavs team that pushed in the lakers shit this year. Hell its the same suns team that had bukkaked on kobe for years.:toast


God your a complete dumbass. due me a favor. go visit your uncle cullby. hes looking for a young B hole.

[Deuce Bigalow]

1. Gasol entered the NBA in 2001. you stated he never made the allstar team until he became a laker. i was simply letting you know their really where no spots open for him till KG left.

2. yes the lakers would have had HCA all thru the playoffs soley to due them being 30-16 half way thru the season.:rolleyes

3. True but thats because the spurs just got thru betting down the same mavs team that pushed in the lakers shit this year. Hell its the same suns team that had bukkaked on kobe for years.:toast


God your a complete dumbass. due me a favor. go visit your uncle cullby. hes looking for a young B hole.

1. I never said he didnt make the allstar team, he made it in 2006, I just said that he didnt make the allstar team in 2007-08.

2. Uh, they would atleast be top 3, the way Kobe was playing and getting his teammates involved.

3. dumb post

Go back to Your daddy Tim, he want to molest you again like he did in the old days

[ezau]

But Shaq won without Kobe. If anything it proves that Kobe + great big man = title. Kobe alone = assraping in the 1st round/missing the playoffs/crying to be traded

Kobe+ two very talented big men=Swept. :lol:lol

[MR.SILVER&BLack]

1. I never said he didnt make the allstar team, he made it in 2006, I just said that he didnt make the allstar team in 2007-08.

2. Uh, they would atleast be top 3, the way Kobe was playing and getting his teammates involved.

3. dumb post

Go back to Your daddy Tim, he want to molest you again like he did in the old days
:lmao Go back to your daddy Kobe, he has a new maids costume & hes eager to try it out.


top 3 with an injured bynum intersting.

:lmao "dumb post" is it dumb because Tim can beat both Nash & Dirk?

your a complete fail. now go vistit your uncle cullby. hes looking for a young b hole

[Deuce Bigalow]

:lmao Go back to your daddy Kobe, he has a new maids costume & hes eager to try it out.


top 3 with an injured bynum intersting.

:lmao "dumb post" is it dumb because Tim can beat both Nash & Dirk?

your a complete fail. now go vistit your uncle cullby. hes looking for a young b hole

no
the Spurs beat them, you know Manu, Parker, and Bowen
and Dirk owned Duncan in 06, when they were both in their primes

[Leetonidas]

Timmy had 40 in the closeout game I hardly call that being owned brah, especially when they didn't guard each other :lmao

[ezau]

no
the Spurs beat them, you know Manu, Parker, and Bowen
and Dirk owned Duncan in 06, when they were both in their primes

and then lost against the Cheat when Wade wasn't even in his prime:lol:lol

[MR.SILVER&BLack]

no
the Spurs beat them, you know Manu, Parker, and Bowen
and Dirk owned Duncan in 06, when they were both in their primes
none the less Nash only beat Tim once in the playoffs. Hell Duncan beat both Nash & dirk at the same time in 03. if dirk owned duncan in 06, then dirk raped kobe in 2011 like a colorado maid.:toast

[ezau]

none the less Nash only beat Tim once in the playoffs. Hell Duncan beat both Nash & dirk at the same time in 03. if dirk owned duncan in 06, then dirk raped kobe in 2011 like a colorado maid.:toast

FYI: Gasol and Kobe are a combined 0-12 against Dirk in the playoffs. :toast

[Stalin]

well the ring argument really doesnt make sense for this thread due to the fact that is

pippen: 6

tired old shit bag rapist: 5

but kobe is the greatest 2nd banana off all time. after he got rid of shaq he realized LA wasnt gonna do shit with him as the man so as a good little 2nd banana he went out and found himself a new man for him to backup.

Co sign

[wekko368]

2. Lakers were 30-16 without Gasol, and had the best record in the West, so even without him they would have had HCA throughout the Western Conf. Playoffs


Don't forget that Bynum had just sustained a season-ending injury. After he went down, the Lakers played 10 games before Gasol arrived and won 5 of them. 4 of those wins came against the Raptors (41-41), Wizards (43-39), and Knicks(23-59), and Seattle (20-62).

There's a good chance that if Gasol hadn't arrived, the Lakers wouldn't even have made the playoffs. There's no way they would've had HCA.

They would've needed 49 wins to get to the playoffs as the 8th seed. That means they would've had to go 19-17 the rest of the way, and if you look at their schedule, it would've been possible but not easy.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Don't forget that Bynum had just sustained a season-ending injury. After he went down, the Lakers played 10 games before Gasol arrived and won 5 of them. 4 of those wins came against the Raptors (41-41), Wizards (43-39), and Knicks(23-59), and Seattle (20-62).

There's a good chance that if Gasol hadn't arrived, the Lakers wouldn't even have made the playoffs. There's no way they would've had HCA.

They would've needed 49 wins to get to the playoffs as the 8th seed. That means they would've had to go 19-17 the rest of the way, and if you look at their schedule, it would've been possible but not easy.

:lol
your a funny guy

[wekko368]

:lol
your a funny guy

Yeah. I'm also right. :lol

[Deuce Bigalow]

Yeah. I'm also right. :lol

uh no your not
Kobe led the Lakers to a 45-37 record in 2005-06 with a even worse roster, and you think that a 30-16 record and having no bynum will take them out of the playoffs :lmao

[wekko368]

uh no your not
Kobe led the Lakers to a 45-37 record in 2005-06 with a even worse roster, and you think that a 30-16 record and having no bynum will take them out of the playoffs :lmao

The western conference in 2008 was much better than the wc in 2006. In 2008, you essentially had to be a 50 win team to be in the playoffs. Go look at the lakers schedule in 2008 for the 2nd half of the season. Getting to the playoffs without gasol wouldn't have been easy.

[InK]

Fact remains is that Lakers franchise should do everything that they can to keep Gasol's gf happy. That is their number 1 priority. Cause when she aint happy then Gasol aint happy. When Gasol aint happy, he doesnt play like an HOF'er. And when Gasol doesnt play like a HOF'er, Kobe gets swept by a jumpshooting team.

The job of the 2nd banana is to keep the 1st happy, we all seen what happened in 2004, and in now in 2011. Kobe should really stop acting like he bitchmade and do what GOAT 2nd option is supposed to do. Or else his legacy will be severly tarnished imho

[joshdaboss]

All trolling aside, I would take Pippen over Bryant any day of the week. I remember the corpse of Scottie Pippen shitting on Bryant when he played for Portland. Just imagine what Prime Pippen does to Bryant, it would have been embarrassing for him. He would have taken Bryant right to the post and just worked him over.

[Giuseppe]

^Pippen saved & enabled MJ's career so you may have a point.

tee, hee.

[stretch]

But Shaq won without Kobe. If anything it proves that Kobe + great big man = title.

um

shaq needed an elite wingman to win that

without an elite wingman, he didnt do any better than Kobe without a big man

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

uh no your not
Kobe led the Lakers to a 45-37 record in 2005-06 with a even worse roster, and you think that a 30-16 record and having no bynum will take them out of the playoffs :lmao
They were a .500 team without Bynum or Gasol. They could have very easily missed the playoffs without the Gasol trade.

[Giuseppe]

They could have very easily missed the playoffs without the Gasol trade.

Though Gasol never won a playoff game until Kobe took him him.

[m>s]

Though Gasol never won a playoff game until Kobe took him him.
they complete each other well but neither is capable of carrying a shitty team past the 1st round. Kobe never made even the 2nd round w/o another superstar playing alongside him. as the ONLY star player of a team no one could've done a better job than what dirk managed to do in 2006 tbh

and i know winning da championship isn't enough

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Though Gasol never won a playoff game until Kobe took him him.
Kobe never won a playoff series without an AS big man.

[Giuseppe]

as the ONLY star player of a team no one could've done a better job than what dirk managed to do in 2006

He managed to lose.

[Giuseppe]

Kobe never won a playoff series without an AS big man.

I'd still fuck ya, DoK.

tee, hee.

[ambchang]

2005, Manu played better than Duncan in the Finals and playoffs

Not true, look up the stats. Duncan and Manu was equal on offense, and Duncan still manned the defense.


2007, Parker played better in Finals and won Finals MVP

You can make an argument here, but as a sidekick, Duncan was nowhere close to the four I mentioned. 07 Duncan simply wasn't as good as 02 Kobe, early 80's Magic, mid 80s McHale or 90's Pippen.

Some players are just born to be sidekicks, Duncan wasn't one of them.

[m>s]

He managed to lose.
they got fucked by rigged officiating and horseshit shots, and the sorry minions didn't do shit to help dirk. but as the truth stands, carrying a shitload of fucks straight into the NBA finals was still a great achievement after all

[Giuseppe]

^He lost. That's the bottom line. If you're going to take the Championship(s) then you have to take the losses. You don't get to pick & choose here. When I lit (right after that squirt for Orlando missed that layup) I set this Forum straight:::no spelling indictment...no bitching about calls. You have to act like somebody.

[Killakobe81]

No shame in Kobe being a great #2 for the first 2 titles I dont think anyone sane can dispute that. Yes, Kobe was still getting an increased role by 2001, but part of the reason why the Lakers steam-rolled in the playoffs that year was because Kobe accepted his role for the good of the team. Now Kobe was probably the better more consistent player in those playoffs ... but Shaq dominated in the finals and deserevd Finals MVP.

By 2002 Kobe was not really a #2 they were co #1's. Shaq had grown fat and though still effective, he took off much of the early part of the regular season and kobe carried that team when Shaq was in foul trouble throughout (which he had been doing going all the way back in 2000, but it was clearly Shaq's team)

Kobe winning 3 as either the #1 or co #1, along with two as the #2 ... still pretty remarkable.

I think the confusion here is many cite Duncan's achievements: winning 4 titles as a #1, 2 MVP's and never missing playoffs ... = he is the "greater" player. When i think most objective (non Laker/Spur fans) would not make that case. Winning his 4 should mean a lot, because he did it in a small market wih no shaq or Kobe as a team-mate. I would never dispute that.

But when you add Kobe's 5 rings, to the numbers he puts up (voulme shooter or not) I just cant see how you could say duncan>Kobe. It doesnt add up.

Are Duncan's titles impressive? Yes him 4 winning titles in an era with Kobe/Shaq/KG/Dirk/Lebron/Wade/Nash is prety damn impressive, especially when he is probaly the least gifted natutral athlete of that group. No one can ever accuse Duncan (like they do shaq or Lebron) of not MAXIMIZING his talent.

I cant hate on Tim. I just think he is overrated here a bit, but it's a spurs site. One of the most overrated all-time? No. But those that rank him over kobe are wrong.

[ambchang]

I don't really get your rationale.

Kobe won 3 with Shaq, and 2 with a loaded frontline, while Duncan won one less ring with obviously less support, and yet it is obvious Kobe > Duncan? How does that work?

[Giuseppe]

But when you add Kobe's 5 rings.

& contrast 'em to the shit bag's: 4

It's like shaved puss.

[Giuseppe]

I don't really get your rationale.

Kobe won 3 with Shaq, and 2 with a loaded frontline, while Duncan won one less ring with obviously less support, and yet it is obvious Kobe > Duncan? How does that work?

Like this:::

Kobe: 5

the shit bag: 4

[stretch]

I don't really get your rationale.

Kobe won 3 with Shaq, and 2 with a loaded frontline, while Duncan won one less ring with obviously less support, and yet it is obvious Kobe > Duncan? How does that work?

funny how suddenly team accomplishments come into play when debating Kobe/Duncan, but when its Dirk/Davey, its all about individual play.

oh, and if its about individual play and ability, Kobe >>>> Timmy. The thing that made Timmy so great is his natural ability to lead. There have been plenty of big-men as or more skilled than him in multiple facets of the game, but he knew how to step up his play when his team needed him most, and help his teammates be able to elevate the level of their own play.

[Giuseppe]

The thing that made Timmy so great is his natural ability to lead. There have been plenty of big-men as or more skilled than him in multiple facets of the game, but he knew how to step up his play when his team needed him most, and help his teammates be able to elevate the level of their own play.

Then his bag took on shit.

[m>s]

tim glued up the team making everyone perform better then they were supposed to do, dude was born to be a leader and deserved the credits for his team's success, but when speaking of individual play he is nowhere close to the greatest powerforwards and centers like dirk, bird, hakeem, shaq etc...

[stretch]

tim glued up the team making everyone perform better then they were supposed to do, dude was born to be a leader and deserved the credits for his team's success, but when speaking of individual play he is nowhere close to the greatest powerforwards and centers like dirk, bird, hakeem, shaq etc...

pretty fair assessment. as much as faggot spur fans keep trying to argue "Davey did 100000000000000x more for his team than Dirk ever did!!!!", you can make the argument that he was a superior all-around individual player to Timmy as well. But what made them different was Timmy's ability to take over games when it mattered most, and elevate the play of his teammates, things Davey knew nothing about.

[DPG21920]

Sorry, Dave > Dirk

[stretch]

Sorry, Dirk > Dave

[Killakobe81]

I don't really get your rationale.

Kobe won 3 with Shaq, and 2 with a loaded frontline, while Duncan won one less ring with obviously less support, and yet it is obvious Kobe > Duncan? How does that work?

Look Im not gonna shit on my team to elevate kobe. But Im with Stretch ...when it's talk about Lakers vs. Spurs... Bynum is overpaid bum, with man boobs and time bombs for knees. Gasol is soft. BTW, for some reason spur fans love Odom and dont get on him too much. I guess ... because until they drfted their rookie, they have never had anyone with a chance of matching up with him, so he plays well against the Spurs.

The 80's Celts and Lakers had "loaded" frontlines. 90's Pistons too.
The LAkers of the past 3 years had greath length and skill but with Bynum's injuries would hardly call them "loaded". Duncan had to win with less in some respect but let's not get carried away. Besides he had a HOF center (aging) for his first two rings. And 2 HOF candidates in the back-court for the last two.

I doubt Parker makes it in. But depends on how his career closes. The Finals MVP sure wont hurthis case. I think Manu is probably an 80% lock. He has ben the #2 on two title teams ...and a case can be made he has been anywhere from the 2nd best to 4th best SG of the past 6 years when healthy.

You cant have it both ways. Boosting Kobe's cast while downplaying duncan's. Kobe's has been better especially the past 4 seasons. But not like duncan was elevating scrubs to get his rings.

[stretch]

Look Im not gonna shit on my team to elevate kobe. But Im with Stretch ...when it's talk about Lakers vs. Spurs... Bynum is overpaid bum, with man boobs and time bombs for knees. Gasol is soft. BTW, for some reason spur fans love Odom and dont get on him too much.

:lmao this is the funniest shit ever

when spurfan is arguing Kobe being overrated: "Gasol, Bynum, and Odom are one of, if not the greatest frontline in NBA history!!! Kobe is arguably the 4th best player on the Lakers!!!"

when spurfan is arguing how the Lakers are overrated: "Gasoft, Andrew Bitchtits Bynum, and Lamar Odumb are garbage, can be handled by Timmy, Splitter, and Blair, and the Lakers are basically Kobe and no one else worth mentioning!!!!! they would get swept if the 99 Spurs faced them!!!!!!"

:lmao faggot spurfans

[Giuseppe]

tim glued up the team making everyone perform better then they were supposed to do

Who. Who'd he transform?

[ambchang]

funny how suddenly team accomplishments come into play when debating Kobe/Duncan, but when its Dirk/Davey, its all about individual play.

oh, and if its about individual play and ability, Kobe >>>> Timmy. The thing that made Timmy so great is his natural ability to lead. There have been plenty of big-men as or more skilled than him in multiple facets of the game, but he knew how to step up his play when his team needed him most, and help his teammates be able to elevate the level of their own play.

A gerbil up your ass can see this entire thread is about the importance of teammates. As in Kobe having a #1 in Shaq.

[Giuseppe]

As in Kobe having a #1 in Shaq.

& 1 more NBA Title than the shit bag.

[stretch]

a gerbil up your ass can see this entire thread is about the importance of teammates. As in kobe having a #1 in shaq.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahaha

[ambchang]

Look Im not gonna shit on my team to elevate kobe. But Im with Stretch ...when it's talk about Lakers vs. Spurs... Bynum is overpaid bum, with man boobs and time bombs for knees. Gasol is soft. BTW, for some reason spur fans love Odom and dont get on him too much. I guess ... because until they drfted their rookie, they have never had anyone with a chance of matching up with him, so he plays well against the Spurs.

The 80's Celts and Lakers had "loaded" frontlines. 90's Pistons too.
The LAkers of the past 3 years had greath length and skill but with Bynum's injuries would hardly call them "loaded". Duncan had to win with less in some respect but let's not get carried away. Besides he had a HOF center (aging) for his first two rings. And 2 HOF candidates in the back-court for the last two.

I doubt Parker makes it in. But depends on how his career closes. The Finals MVP sure wont hurthis case. I think Manu is probably an 80% lock. He has ben the #2 on two title teams ...and a case can be made he has been anywhere from the 2nd best to 4th best SG of the past 6 years when healthy.

You cant have it both ways. Boosting Kobe's cast while downplaying duncan's. Kobe's has been better especially the past 4 seasons. But not like duncan was elevating scrubs to get his rings.

I agree in the context of NBA history, the 08-11 Lakers frontline wasn’t anything special, but taken in the context of 08-11, the Lakers frontline was far and away the best in the league, with the Celtics a distant 2nd during that period.

Duncan’s prime didn’t coincide with the primes of this best teammates. Duncan’s prime was 98 to 04, maybe 05. Robinson’s prime was 90-96, Manu was 05 to maybe 09, Parker is 06 onwards. It’s not fair to say that Duncan had 3 HoF teammates playing with him, just like saying the 04 team had 4 HoF on it despite the fact that both Malone and Payton were clearly past their primes. I would say 09 and 10 Gasol played better than 03 Robinson, yet Robinson’s career clearly was better than Pau. I would say 09 and 10 Odom had a bigger impact than 03 Ginobili and 03, maybe even 05 Parker, and again, over the course of their careers, I would say Ginobili and Parker are better than Odom.

Yeah, Manu is pretty much a lock (based mostly of his international resume), much like Gasol is as well. Parker is maybe 60% there with his international stuff.

[ambchang]

pretty fair assessment. as much as faggot spur fans keep trying to argue "Davey did 100000000000000x more for his team than Dirk ever did!!!!", you can make the argument that he was a superior all-around individual player to Timmy as well. But what made them different was Timmy's ability to take over games when it mattered most, and elevate the play of his teammates, things Davey knew nothing about.

The butthurt is strong in this one.

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

#1 – Kobe Bryant
This one is pretty obvious, nobody plays the second fiddle quite like Kobe. He opened up the lane for Shaq, he scored a huge amount of points off of Shaq doubles. Only if he could learn to pass the ball to the main man, he would be that much better.

Hey ambchang, I am not going to get into a debate with you over this because you have already proven you can't argue and fail at reading comprehension. However, your statement is nothing but opinion without proof. However, I did start a proof of its truth awhile back and so far no one has taken the challenge to prove it one way or the other. Certainly a Kobe hater like you would love to prove it to be true. No I am not trying to say people will believe opinon as truth. What I am saying is, become educated. Right now, your opinon is WAY FUCKING OFFBASE. Kobe was not a sidekick to Shaq, but a near equal. Especially when it counted most, the defacto NBA finals (WCF and WC SF 2000-2002). Right now, the PROOF backs my opinion up, so have at it. Attack the message, not the messenger. As I said, I have no desire to debate you, you have no clue what's going on in arguments, you keep spinning meaningless tangents. Here it's simple what's going on, Kobe was, or wasn't a sidekick.

Check these out, where the proof starts:

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5382088&postcount=73

The video referred to can be seen here:

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183819

[stretch]

The butthurt is strong in this one.

you are the one who picks and chooses, and changes your argument to fit your needs. id say thats the sign of a butthurt one :lmao

[ambchang]

Hey ambchang, I am not going to get into a debate with you over this because you have already proven you can't argue and fail at reading comprehension. However, your statement is nothing but opinion without proof. However, I did start a proof of its truth awhile back and so far no one has taken the challenge to prove it one way or the other. Certainly a Kobe hater like you would love to prove it to be true. No I am not trying to say people will believe opinon as truth. What I am saying is, become educated. Right now, your opinon is WAY FUCKING OFFBASE. Kobe was not a sidekick to Shaq, but a near equal. Especially when it counted most, the defacto NBA finals (WCF and WC SF 2000-2002). Right now, the PROOF backs my opinion up, so have at it. Attack the message, not the messenger. As I said, I have no desire to debate you, you have no clue what's going on in arguments, you keep spinning meaningless tangents. Here it's simple what's going on, Kobe was, or wasn't a sidekick.

Check these out, where the proof starts:

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5382088&postcount=73

The video referred to can be seen here:

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183819

You have continuously proved to lack common sense and love to argue that arguments are arguable.

Comparing players, in and of itself, is an opinion. There are no facts backing up Jordan being the GOAT, but it's a generally held opinion.

As for Kobe being a #2, the supporting arguments are around the entire Lakers offense being built around Shaq and not Kobe.

[ambchang]

you are the one who picks and chooses, and changes your argument to fit your needs. id say thats the sign of a butthurt one :lmao

You, with your post in its entirety, stated about the impact of double teams.

[Killakobe81]

I agree in the context of NBA history, the 08-11 Lakers frontline wasn’t anything special, but taken in the context of 08-11, the Lakers frontline was far and away the best in the league, with the Celtics a distant 2nd during that period.

Duncan’s prime didn’t coincide with the primes of this best teammates. Duncan’s prime was 98 to 04, maybe 05. Robinson’s prime was 90-96, Manu was 05 to maybe 09, Parker is 06 onwards. It’s not fair to say that Duncan had 3 HoF teammates playing with him, just like saying the 04 team had 4 HoF on it despite the fact that both Malone and Payton were clearly past their primes. I would say 09 and 10 Gasol played better than 03 Robinson, yet Robinson’s career clearly was better than Pau. I would say 09 and 10 Odom had a bigger impact than 03 Ginobili and 03, maybe even 05 Parker, and again, over the course of their careers, I would say Ginobili and Parker are better than Odom.

Yeah, Manu is pretty much a lock (based mostly of his international resume), much like Gasol is as well. Parker is maybe 60% there with his international stuff.

Offensively yes, we know Robinson's post-season struggles are legendary. But aren't you one of the guys that lauds David for his all-around play? Besides passing for Pau and Odom and Pau's post game what do they do better than an aging robinson. Bynum probably has better post-game even less than 100% ...but what besides length and a few dropsteps did Andrew have on David?

1. On one hand you argue David was this great player. Yes he was aging and past his prime when he rang, but you dont lose the HOF skills he has through age. Sure he lost athleticism, (which was his best asset) but it's not like Bynum on bad wheels or Pau on good ones were better rebounders or shot blockers than David was at an advanced age. And did not the spurs win on the strength of their defense?

2. Sure in today's NBA the Lakers have one of the better front-lines. But when you look at production, especially in the Finals. Odom's contributions fluctuate greatly, which is why he has never been an all-star. Parker and Manu made all-star games. (not the best indicator, but still). Bynum and Odom none and Bynum has been hurt or wildly ineffective in both Finals. Heck Cully even jokes his biggest contribution was taking out Perk. So really you are comparing Pau and Odom to David and later on ... Manu and Tony.

3. You are right not many teams have HOFers together in their prime. You have: the 90's Bulls (pippen/MJ) and Jazz (Stockton/Malone)
80's Celts (big 3) and Lakers Worthy/Magic (Kareem was past his prime)
2008 Celts maybe only Pierce was in his ... point is it is rare to getr HOF'ers in their prime together and when you do rings, usually follow.

Again I agree duncan is a great leader and who knows if Manu and Parker develop without Tim to lead the way (Pop too?). For that he deserves much props. But just like Pippen with MJ the talent has to be there for them to develop and Parker and Manu had plenty. Sure Duncan missed his prime with their "primes" ... but that doesnt change the fact Tim had a at least 1 HOF'er on each of his teams that rang.


Mj won 3 rings before Pippen his his, and Shaq won 2 before Kobe was close to his prime as well ...so what?

[ambchang]

Offensively yes, we know Robinson's post-season struggles are legendary. But aren't you one of the guys that lauds David for his all-around play? Besides passing for Pau and Odom and Pau's post game what do they do better than an aging robinson. Bynum probably has better post-game even less than 100% ...but what besides length and a few dropsteps did Andrew have on David?

1. On one hand you argue David was this great player. Yes he was aging and past his prime when he rang, but you dont lose the HOF skills he has through age. Sure he lost athleticism, (which was his best asset) but it's not like Bynum on bad wheels or Pau on good ones were better rebounders or shot blockers than David was at an advanced age. And did not the spurs win on the strength of their defense?

2. Sure in today's NBA the Lakers have one of the better front-lines. But when you look at production, especially in the Finals. Odom's contributions fluctuate greatly, which is why he has never been an all-star. Parker and Manu made all-star games. (not the best indicator, but still). Bynum and Odom none and Bynum has been hurt or wildly ineffective in both Finals. Heck Cully even jokes his biggest contribution was taking out Perk. So really you are comparing Pau and Odom to David and later on ... Manu and Tony.

3. You are right not many teams have HOFers together in their prime. You have: the 90's Bulls (pippen/MJ) and Jazz (Stockton/Malone)
80's Celts (big 3) and Lakers Worthy/Magic (Kareem was past his prime)
2008 Celts maybe only Pierce was in his ... point is it is rare to getr HOF'ers in their prime together and when you do rings, usually follow.

Again I agree duncan is a great leader and who knows if Manu and Parker develop without Tim to lead the way (Pop too?). For that he deserves much props. But just like Pippen with MJ the talent has to be there for them to develop and Parker and Manu had plenty. Sure Duncan missed his prime with their "primes" ... but that doesnt change the fact Tim had a at least 1 HOF'er on each of his teams that rang.


Mj won 3 rings before Pippen his his, and Shaq won 2 before Kobe was close to his prime as well ...so what?
You might have confused me with someone else, as I don’t believe I ever argued Robinson is particularly skilful. In fact, I think his entire career was built on his freakish athleticism. He never developed the offensive game of an Hakeem or a Duncan, simply because he was not wired as a center, but more of a giant SF. His main strength was his speed, and he relied on it to drive past defenders and get them into foul trouble. In fact, in Game 1 vs. Hou, he got Hakeem in early foul trouble (I think 3 fouls by the early 2nd quarter or so), and Tomjonavich was smart enough to switch Charles Jones on him with constant double/triple teaming. It turned out to be somewhat of a revelation that despite how many defenders you throw at Robinson, the guys around him won’t/can’t shoot, and this continued until the end of the series.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t consider Robinson particularly unskilful, as I think his jumper is mostly money, but when it’s off, and when the doubles and triples come, he doesn’t have much to fall back on (There are only a handful of guys who can consistently score on double teams in the low post, Hakeem and McHale, but even they would prefer to pass it out to the open man).

One advantage of Pau/Odom/Bynum is that you have three of them. Most frontcourts in the NBA today simply do not match up with that kind of size. If you put your best big defender on Pau, Bynum and Odom is going to score on you, but with Robinson, you can put your best guy on him, and not have to worry about anything else (well, except of course, Duncan). It’s the overall package of the Lakers frontline that causes headaches for all the coaches around the league. Look at the contending teams in last few years, they continue to overpaid marginal defensive bigs like Perkins and Chandler, because they all know they have to match up with the Lakers size. Heat is pretty much the only notable exception to the group.

On point 1) , I agree the Spurs won on the strength of defense, but so did the Lakers. Pau, Odom, Bynum, Artest/Ariza is simply better, talent-wise, than Robinson, Avery Johnson, Jaren Jackson, and Sean Elliott.

On point 2), my main argument is that Duncan’s supporting cast is not at their primes when Duncan was. Parker and Manu in 03 wasn’t anything special, and Robinson in 03 was pretty much playing at a Chandler level, not bad, still a defensive force at times, but it’s not all-star level talent, especially at a time when front courts were loaded compared to now.

On point 3) Agreed. No matter how dominant a player is, he needs teammates. Duncan is just easier to build around as he has demonstrated that he could win as the center of a defensive team on both O and D (99), the guy who carries the team (03) with a mix of young and old, and a defensive anchor that is the marginal #1 on offense (05), and a defensive anchor who shares offensive responsibilities with two other players (07).

I do not agree Jordan won 3 before Pippen hit his prime, Pippen was plenty much at his prime starting 91. And Kobe is hitting his prime starting 02 when the league changed all the rules to benefit perimeter players like him.

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

You have continuously proved to lack common sense and love to argue that arguments are arguable.

Comparing players, in and of itself, is an opinion. There are no facts backing up Jordan being the GOAT, but it's a generally held opinion.

As for Kobe being a #2, the supporting arguments are around the entire Lakers offense being built around Shaq and not Kobe.
No, you have no common sense, you proved countless times you want to argue about everything except what the main point of the argument is about! (And it takes a ton of elephants to drag you through a shitstorm of your posts to point out what it's all about, and even then you have proved you have difficulty comprehending what the argument was!)

The entire Lakers offense was built around Shaq, and not Kobe? Well, you can argue it all you want, but it isn't true, therefore it is just your opinion. Therefore, every time you diss Kobe from now on, you'll simply have to admit to yourself, as much as you hate to, that Kobe was not a sidekick to Shaq.

I would say from 2000-01 to 2001-03 the Lakers offense was built around Shaq and Kobe since Derek Fisher was well behind as the number 3 scorer. Don't give me any crap about Shaq drawing double teams thus freeing Kobe, my video example starts the death knell of that myth.

Here I give you a perfect chance to prove once and for all Kobe was a sidekick but since you know it isn't true, you run for the hills. Typical.

[Killakobe81]

You might have confused me with someone else, as I don’t believe I ever argued Robinson is particularly skilful. In fact, I think his entire career was built on his freakish athleticism. He never developed the offensive game of an Hakeem or a Duncan, simply because he was not wired as a center, but more of a giant SF. His main strength was his speed, and he relied on it to drive past defenders and get them into foul trouble. In fact, in Game 1 vs. Hou, he got Hakeem in early foul trouble (I think 3 fouls by the early 2nd quarter or so), and Tomjonavich was smart enough to switch Charles Jones on him with constant double/triple teaming. It turned out to be somewhat of a revelation that despite how many defenders you throw at Robinson, the guys around him won’t/can’t shoot, and this continued until the end of the series.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t consider Robinson particularly unskilful, as I think his jumper is mostly money, but when it’s off, and when the doubles and triples come, he doesn’t have much to fall back on (There are only a handful of guys who can consistently score on double teams in the low post, Hakeem and McHale, but even they would prefer to pass it out to the open man).

One advantage of Pau/Odom/Bynum is that you have three of them. Most frontcourts in the NBA today simply do not match up with that kind of size. If you put your best big defender on Pau, Bynum and Odom is going to score on you, but with Robinson, you can put your best guy on him, and not have to worry about anything else (well, except of course, Duncan). It’s the overall package of the Lakers frontline that causes headaches for all the coaches around the league. Look at the contending teams in last few years, they continue to overpaid marginal defensive bigs like Perkins and Chandler, because they all know they have to match up with the Lakers size. Heat is pretty much the only notable exception to the group.

On point 1) , I agree the Spurs won on the strength of defense, but so did the Lakers. Pau, Odom, Bynum, Artest/Ariza is simply better, talent-wise, than Robinson, Avery Johnson, Jaren Jackson, and Sean Elliott.

On point 2), my main argument is that Duncan’s supporting cast is not at their primes when Duncan was. Parker and Manu in 03 wasn’t anything special, and Robinson in 03 was pretty much playing at a Chandler level, not bad, still a defensive force at times, but it’s not all-star level talent, especially at a time when front courts were loaded compared to now.

On point 3) Agreed. No matter how dominant a player is, he needs teammates. Duncan is just easier to build around as he has demonstrated that he could win as the center of a defensive team on both O and D (99), the guy who carries the team (03) with a mix of young and old, and a defensive anchor that is the marginal #1 on offense (05), and a defensive anchor who shares offensive responsibilities with two other players (07).

I do not agree Jordan won 3 before Pippen hit his prime, Pippen was plenty much at his prime starting 91. And Kobe is hitting his prime starting 02 when the league changed all the rules to benefit perimeter players like him.

1. "primes" are kind of hard to define. I was following your example more than my own. You kind of painted the picture that Manu and Parker's prime was after Tim's. Kobe did not truly hit his prime until the 3peat. Not that he was not running the offense, or instrumental but that was when his game became more complete. IF we are using your argument "well the perimeter rules benefited the players after ... " then wouldn't that APPLY TO EVERY SEASON of MANU's AND TONY's career? since they came in to prominence AFTER the rules were changed to benefit perimeter players? Especially tony who is one of the fastest players in the NBA?

2. What "loaded" front-courts did the Spurs face? How tall is Ben Wallace? How loaded are they if he can't score? Wallace, wallace and Prince provided great length (much like the Lakers) but loaded? the Lakers had Shaq Horry and a bunch of stiffs were they loaded? The knicks without Ewing ... were they loaded? New Jersey ran out Aaron williams, Kmart and that big white guy was that front-court loaded too? How about amare and diaw? Maybe Verejao and big Z is a loaded front-court?

Maybe they were more decent big men spread out in the early part of the decade but the spurs did not have to beat many "loaded" from courts to win the West or win the title ...

Look, as I said before Duncan was the man. I dont take that away but yall try to overstate things to improve his resume ...same with David but it's not necessary they are both great. This is not specifically directed at you, but the posts here in the forum lately.

[DMC]

Tim Duncan is more clutch from the 3 against the Suns than Kobe was.

[DMC]

2. What "loaded" front-courts did the Spurs face? How tall is Ben Wallace? How loaded are they if he can't score? Wallace, wallace and Prince provided great length (much like the Lakers) but loaded?

They beat Kobe, Shaq, Malone, Payton and insert role player here in the Finals.

Beating 4 HOFers with a HOF coach sounds loaded to me.

[ambchang]

No, you have no common sense, you proved countless times you want to argue about everything except what the main point of the argument is about! (And it takes a ton of elephants to drag you through a shitstorm of your posts to point out what it's all about, and even then you have proved you have difficulty comprehending what the argument was!)

The entire Lakers offense was built around Shaq, and not Kobe? Well, you can argue it all you want, but it isn't true, therefore it is just your opinion. Therefore, every time you diss Kobe from now on, you'll simply have to admit to yourself, as much as you hate to, that Kobe was not a sidekick to Shaq.

I would say from 2000-01 to 2001-03 the Lakers offense was built around Shaq and Kobe since Derek Fisher was well behind as the number 3 scorer. Don't give me any crap about Shaq drawing double teams thus freeing Kobe, my video example starts the death knell of that myth.

Here I give you a perfect chance to prove once and for all Kobe was a sidekick but since you know it isn't true, you run for the hills. Typical.
LOL, after beaten to the ground with those 6 arguments you raised, you went back to say that arguments are arguable.

Kobe being a #2 isn’t a fact, it’s a general opinion. Just as Kobe co-sharing the #1 isn’t a fact, it’s an opinion. There are no arguments in the world that would quantifiably state that Kobe and Shaq shared the #1 or Kobe was the definitive #2, but it’s a generally held opinion that Kobe was the clear #2 all the way up to 2003.

Your video “evidence” was a snip shot of the game, and unless you go through each and every possession of how many times all the Lakers perimeter players opened up due to double teams on Shaq, and how many times Kobe created his own shot vs. benefitting from double teams off of Shaq, they are no prove, they are just snipshots of highlights taken out of context to satisfy your own agenda.

I am not exactly sure what you want to argue in this case, because you may have noticed, you stated explicated that you do not want to debate with me, but then you have continuously done so. What is it then? You want to talk about leading sentences? Is your whole point of this argument about you not wanting to debate with me? Stay consistent with your approach, either you are arguing against your own standards, or you are acting hypocritically against the standards you have set for yourself.

On a totally unrelated topic from your point of view, Kobe made 168, 187 and 137 FTM in the 01, 01 and 03 playoffs, while Shaq had 191, 203 and 121 (out of 12 games). Players like Fisher, Horry and Fox benefitted off of Shaq double teams, and a player like Kobe, while being able to create his own shot, also benefitted from it. I am not exactly sure where you would say that Kobe creating his own shot meant that he was a co#1. Pippen created his own shot, does that make him a co#1? And to pull out some weak videos claiming it’s some sort of proof is just purely laughable.

[Giuseppe]

Tim Duncan is more clutch from the 3 against the Suns

Thank Christ.

[ambchang]

1. "primes" are kind of hard to define. I was following your example more than my own. You kind of painted the picture that Manu and Parker's prime was after Tim's. Kobe did not truly hit his prime until the 3peat. Not that he was not running the offense, or instrumental but that was when his game became more complete. IF we are using your argument "well the perimeter rules benefited the players after ... " then wouldn't that APPLY TO EVERY SEASON of MANU's AND TONY's career? since they came in to prominence AFTER the rules were changed to benefit perimeter players? Especially tony who is one of the fastest players in the NBA?

Oh yes, the rules benefitted Parker big time, because it’s a rule that benefits quick perimeter players. I firmly believe that without the rules, Parker would have been an average PG at best, and no where near the Finals MVP and all-star level player he became. It didn’t benefit Manu as much because of his unorthodox style, I think, but I still think there is some benefit to it.

But yes, Tim’s prime, and primes in general, are hard to define, I am not sure if I should put 05-07 as Tim’s prime, and I actually think his absolute prime was 99 to 03.

As for Kobe, he hit his prime in around 02 or so, his game didn’t actually became complete, ever. He still have questionable shot selection, and he still tries to take over a game when he really shouldn’t. But he pretty much is as dominant back in 02 as he is now, and everywhere in between. You can argue his absolute prime was 04 to 07, maybe even up to 09, but then again, you see how even God Kobe can suffer with horrible teammates.


2. What "loaded" front-courts did the Spurs face? How tall is Ben Wallace? How loaded are they if he can't score? Wallace, wallace and Prince provided great length (much like the Lakers) but loaded? the Lakers had Shaq Horry and a bunch of stiffs were they loaded? The knicks without Ewing ... were they loaded? New Jersey ran out Aaron williams, Kmart and that big white guy was that front-court loaded too? How about amare and diaw? Maybe Verejao and big Z is a loaded front-court?

Maybe they were more decent big men spread out in the early part of the decade but the spurs did not have to beat many "loaded" from courts to win the West or win the title ...

The Wallace brothers were without a doubt the best defensive combo in the league over the last decade, maybe just slightly less so than the 99 Spurs. But yes, the rest of the front court sucked, but that is not the point of the argument, because Kobe having a loaded front court (compared to the competition) is akin to Tim having a loaded backcourt. The frontcourt for Kobe is support, but Duncan’s support is his backcourt. I know it sounds confusing, but Tim and Kobe plays totally different positions, and the supporting system around them are totally different as a result.

In that case, the Spurs did face some decent backcourt. As good as the Parker Manu backcourt was, I don’t think it was exceptional compared to the Kobe, Wade backcourts. In 03, the Spurs backcourt was relatively pedestrian (though clutch).


Look, as I said before Duncan was the man. I dont take that away but yall try to overstate things to improve his resume ...same with David but it's not necessary they are both great. This is not specifically directed at you, but the posts here in the forum lately.

I personally think Robinson is one of the most underrated players of all-time, people paint him as a choker, and I guess throughout the years, I just got used to the general ignorance and laziness of people to paint a story. I am not sure which one is appalling, the sportswriter who came up with this crap to destroy a great players legacy to sell a story, or the supposed fans ignorant enough to lap it up and take it as facts. Robinson have always had teammates that other teams can easily double off of, and does not have to pay, and those teammates happen to be the two most responsible for nailing outside shots, PG and SG. His only reliable sidekick throughout his prime was Sean Elliott, and as much as I love Elliott (probably one of my favourite 5 players of all time), he was no Kobe, he was no Clyde, he was no Pippen, and he was no McHale. My main frustrations is with Mavs fans, because Dirk went through the exact same thing as Robinson, but he was given a chance to redeem himself by having a perfect team (in retrospect) built around him, Robinson never had that chance as he only had 6 healthy seasons.

As for Duncan, I think he is about correctly rated, greatest PF of all time, top 10 of all time, slightly ahead of/same as / slightly behind Shaq in the #7 to #10 spot. I like to give Duncan the upper hand because he is a Spur, and also because he is just much more versatile on both offense and defense. People pick Shaq because of his sheer dominance, and I have no issues with that. As for Kobe, I just never saw him being ahead of Duncan, he is slightly, but clearly behind Duncan. He is in the marginal top 10 of all time, and there is no shame in there. He has proven to be the best sidekick in the history of the league, and he has proven to be a competent #1 when given the right team. He was not as easy to build around as either Duncan or Shaq (building a great frontcourt is always harder than building a great backcourt, just because there are less skilled big men), and he has never been the defensive center of the Lakers.

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

LOL, after beaten to the ground with those 6 arguments you raised, you went back to say that arguments are arguable.

Kobe being a #2 isn’t a fact, it’s a general opinion. Just as Kobe co-sharing the #1 isn’t a fact, it’s an opinion. There are no arguments in the world that would quantifiably state that Kobe and Shaq shared the #1 or Kobe was the definitive #2, but it’s a generally held opinion that Kobe was the clear #2 all the way up to 2003.

Your video “evidence” was a snip shot of the game, and unless you go through each and every possession of how many times all the Lakers perimeter players opened up due to double teams on Shaq, and how many times Kobe created his own shot vs. benefitting from double teams off of Shaq, they are no prove, they are just snipshots of highlights taken out of context to satisfy your own agenda.

I am not exactly sure what you want to argue in this case, because you may have noticed, you stated explicated that you do not want to debate with me, but then you have continuously done so. What is it then? You want to talk about leading sentences? Is your whole point of this argument about you not wanting to debate with me? Stay consistent with your approach, either you are arguing against your own standards, or you are acting hypocritically against the standards you have set for yourself.

On a totally unrelated topic from your point of view, Kobe made 168, 187 and 137 FTM in the 01, 01 and 03 playoffs, while Shaq had 191, 203 and 121 (out of 12 games). Players like Fisher, Horry and Fox benefitted off of Shaq double teams, and a player like Kobe, while being able to create his own shot, also benefitted from it. I am not exactly sure where you would say that Kobe creating his own shot meant that he was a co#1. Pippen created his own shot, does that make him a co#1? And to pull out some weak videos claiming it’s some sort of proof is just purely laughable.
So says the guy with no credibility due to his consistent demonstration of lack of reading comprehension, including the thread linked at the bottom of my signature. Hey, don't fret, people everywhere don't read threads. I made a recent post at a Mercedes Benz forum trying to get help for a recent car problem. I outlined, in bullet form, the things I had tried to rectify the situation with. First reply I got, some guy asked me if I tried something I had already pointed out didn't work! so, plenty of dumbasses out there.

Also, you miss the gist of my video evidence. To my knowledge, this is the only time anyone ever examined a video to determine if Kobe scored easy points off Shaq double and triple teams, or not. In other words, to PROVE fact over opinion, every game they played would have to be examined. This short random sample is no proof at all, but it did demonstrate one thing convincingly in it's short random sample: The Spurs played horrible help defense; other players should have been doubling Shaq, not Kobe's man.

All I was trying to say with my posts, other than those that are intentionally insulting you, was that if someone examined enough Kobe and Shaq's videos in detail, a realistic and statistically significant conclusion could be made whether or not Kobe was a sidekick. It would seem to me, either a Kobe lover or hater would be happy to try, because proving it would be very sweet. You don't seem to want to do it. Maybe someone else will someday.

See, I understand the love/hate for Kobe and Tim, especially on this forum. As I have said before, Kobe lovers overrate him, and Kobe haters underrate him. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. Same goers for Tim. you can't compare these two players other than by opinion mainly because they play different positions. Tim may be the better players by the common logic that generally Big men are more valuable than small guys. Really, it doesn't matter who is better, both men have legacies that are secure.

Check my recent posts, I gave a compelling argument who the biggest sidekick in NBA playoff history is, and it's Bill Russell. How often was he the number one offensive option? Try never. He grabbed rebounds, and Bob Cousy ran the break with his passing abilities. Boston didn't win because of Russell, they won because their coach was miles ahead of the competition, and their teams were stacked, far more than what LeBron, Wade, and Bosh just tried to form. However, revisionist historians have vaulted Bill pretty much to the top of the list of all time greats. He wasn't, period. He would be just another player in today's NBA. MJ, Wilt, Kareem, Oscar, Dr.J., Baylor, etc could thrive in any era. Put Timmy in the early 1950's and he's the GOAT for at least 30 years.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe never won a playoff series without an AS big man.

:lol
Went to the Finals in 2008

[Deuce Bigalow]

Not true, look up the stats. Duncan and Manu was equal on offense, and Duncan still manned the defense.



You can make an argument here, but as a sidekick, Duncan was nowhere close to the four I mentioned. 07 Duncan simply wasn't as good as 02 Kobe, early 80's Magic, mid 80s McHale or 90's Pippen.

Some players are just born to be sidekicks, Duncan wasn't one of them.

Manu was much better offense, and tim duncan was busy getting dunked on defense :lol

[m>s]

Sorry, Dave > Dirk
the stump persistently being wrong :tu

[m>s]

:lol
Went to the Finals in 2008
went to the finals in 08 with the new signing of pau who was without a doubt an all-star player at that time

[Deuce Bigalow]

went to the finals in 08 with the new signing of pau who was without a doubt an all-star player at that time

:lol

Gasol did not make the All-Star team or an All-NBA team in 2007-08 and in 2006-07

[m>s]

:lol

Gasol did not make the All-Star team or an All-NBA team in 2007-08 and in 2006-07
can't argue against it :lol however the shitbag Yao made it EVERY year throughout his whole pitiful career and he was indeed a good player

[Giuseppe]

:lol

Gasol did not make the All-Star team or an All-NBA team in 2007-08 and in 2006-07

Nor did Gasol win a single playoff game till Kobe took him in.

[DMC]

Nor did Gasol win a single playoff game till Kobe took him in.
Kobe is to Pau's success as Watson was to Edison's.

[ambchang]

So says the guy with no credibility due to his consistent demonstration of lack of reading comprehension, including the thread linked at the bottom of my signature. Hey, don't fret, people everywhere don't read threads. I made a recent post at a Mercedes Benz forum trying to get help for a recent car problem. I outlined, in bullet form, the things I had tried to rectify the situation with. First reply I got, some guy asked me if I tried something I had already pointed out didn't work! so, plenty of dumbasses out there.

Yeah, arguing over 6 specific points on a basketball forum over talking about whether arguments is arguable is definite lack of reading comprehension. Speaking of which, why are you still arguing with me? You have specifically said you do not want to debate with me in your first leading sentence. And I am well aware of the fact that you like to dictate what specifically an argument is about when it was you who respond to my post.


Also, you miss the gist of my video evidence. To my knowledge, this is the only time anyone ever examined a video to determine if Kobe scored easy points off Shaq double and triple teams, or not. In other words, to PROVE fact over opinion, every game they played would have to be examined. This short random sample is no proof at all, but it did demonstrate one thing convincingly in it's short random sample: The Spurs played horrible help defense; other players should have been doubling Shaq, not Kobe's man.

So the gist of your video is to demonstrate how Kobe have scored points without the help of doubles and triples off Shaq. Great! So what? How does that show that he is not the #2 on his team? Why are you bringing short random samples that are, in your own words, “no proof at all” into this? Stop wasting my time and get to the point of your original premise, and that is Kobe was not a sidekick to Shaq.

Please feel free to skip over the FGM in my previous post as proof to Shaq being the top dog. Because we all know you are great at reading things.


All I was trying to say with my posts, other than those that are intentionally insulting you, was that if someone examined enough Kobe and Shaq's videos in detail, a realistic and statistically significant conclusion could be made whether or not Kobe was a sidekick. It would seem to me, either a Kobe lover or hater would be happy to try, because proving it would be very sweet. You don't seem to want to do it. Maybe someone else will someday.
A few minutes of video is a realistic and statistically significant sample for 3 years worth of games? Which planet did you came from?
With your amazing reading comprehension, it should be noted that the original point of this thread is not to argue whether Kobe was a sidekick to Shaq during the 3 peat, it is an established assumption, but the assertion is who is the best of all the sidekicks.

See, I understand the love/hate for Kobe and Tim, especially on this forum. As I have said before, Kobe lovers overrate him, and Kobe haters underrate him. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. Same goers for Tim. you can't compare these two players other than by opinion mainly because they play different positions. Tim may be the better players by the common logic that generally Big men are more valuable than small guys. Really, it doesn't matter who is better, both men have legacies that are secure.
I am not sure where you are going with this? Oh wait! You come up with your own rules, you can go on a random diatribe about something to do with nothing whenever you please.


Check my recent posts, I gave a compelling argument who the biggest sidekick in NBA playoff history is, and it's Bill Russell. How often was he the number one offensive option? Try never. He grabbed rebounds, and Bob Cousy ran the break with his passing abilities. Boston didn't win because of Russell, they won because their coach was miles ahead of the competition, and their teams were stacked, far more than what LeBron, Wade, and Bosh just tried to form. However, revisionist historians have vaulted Bill pretty much to the top of the list of all time greats. He wasn't, period. He would be just another player in today's NBA. MJ, Wilt, Kareem, Oscar, Dr.J., Baylor, etc could thrive in any era. Put Timmy in the early 1950's and he's the GOAT for at least 30 years.
So after a whole bunch of something about nothing, you finally came back to topic. Russell is a good candidate depending on how you measure #2s. However, the Celtics were known for revolutionising the game through defense and fastbreaks, both of which relies on the defense and rebounding of Russell.

[Stalin]

http://kobebryantisoverrated.webs.com/kobestillasidekick.htm

have you seen this site?

[MR.SILVER&BLack]

http://kobebryantisoverrated.webs.com/kobestillasidekick.htm

have you seen this site?
:toast this deserves its own thread

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

Yeah, arguing over 6 specific points on a basketball forum over talking about whether arguments is arguable is definite lack of reading comprehension. Speaking of which, why are you still arguing with me? You have specifically said you do not want to debate with me in your first leading sentence. And I am well aware of the fact that you like to dictate what specifically an argument is about when it was you who respond to my post.


Yeah, and not reading the thread linked in my signature thus making the wrong conclusions further proved you lack reading comprehension, Dumbass. I should say why are you arguing with me? Maybe this thread needs to be about David Hassellhoff, it took a gif of him to shut you up in the other thread you wanted the last word in.
http://www.post-literate.com/gerpunx/archives/hasselhoffian-recursion.gif


So the gist of your video is to demonstrate how Kobe have scored points without the help of doubles and triples off Shaq. Great! So what? How does that show that he is not the #2 on his team? Why are you bringing short random samples that are, in your own words, “no proof at all” into this? Stop wasting my time and get to the point of your original premise, and that is Kobe was not a sidekick to Shaq.


Dumbass, It shows he wasn't a sidekick. Jordan and Pippen were number 1 and number 2. So were Shaq and Kobe, But the gap is close with the latter. not with the former. You act as if all #1's are #2's are equal. they aren't. Huge bit of flawed logic on your part. Being number 2 in Kobe's case is not the degradation of him you want it to be, and that kills much of your argument.

Please feel free to skip over the FGM in my previous post as proof to Shaq being the top dog. Because we all know you are great at reading things.


See my quote above, there you go again, with your flawed logic, and we know you are the one that can't read. I proved that time and time again, and refuted you when you said I fail at reading comprehension.
A few minutes of video is a realistic and statistically significant sample for 3 years worth of games? Which planet did you came from?
With your amazing reading comprehension, it should be noted that the original point of this thread is not to argue whether Kobe was a sidekick to Shaq during the 3 peat, it is an established assumption, but the assertion is who is the best of all the sidekicks.

God you are stupid. Did you even see what the point of that video was? no, we know you didn't because you fail at reading comprehension. Of course it isn't a proof. It's a start. Bring on the next video, maybe it supports you. If you don't get it now, you are hopeless. I started the proof, you finish it. If you look at all their games together, you could prove Kobe was a sidekick. go back and read my posts again, you idiot, and don't bring any silly tangents. Bring on the next video and start the proof. that's the point, do I need to say it again?
I am not sure where you are going with this? Oh wait! You come up with your own rules, you can go on a random diatribe about something to do with nothing whenever you please.


Of course you have no clue where this is going, you fail at reading comprehension! I'm not making any rules, you just can't read and debate!
So after a whole bunch of something about nothing, you finally came back to topic. Russell is a good candidate depending on how you measure #2s. However, the Celtics were known for revolutionising the game through defense and fastbreaks, both of which relies on the defense and rebounding of Russell.

The fact that they relied on Russell for defense and rebounds still relegates him to a sidekick. First, Russell didn't get every rebound, or stop every center. Chamberlain ate him alive. No fast break when Wilt did his number on him. However, Bill had teammates that would outplay Wilt's teammates. Bill also had a coach that figured out the game years before any other coach did. Auerbach is the main reason Boston won. Not Bill Russell. John Wooden was the next coach that could build a dynasty. Then Red Holtzman.

http://www.post-literate.com/gerpunx/archives/hasselhoffian-recursion.gif
http://www.post-literate.com/gerpunx/archives/hasselhoffian-recursion.gif
http://www.post-literate.com/gerpunx/archives/hasselhoffian-recursion.gif

[cheguevara]

I take Pippen over Kobe tbh.

Pippen embraced the role of #2 and made the best of it.

Kobe got dragged kicking and screaming as #2 and alienated a 3 time world champ.

[Giuseppe]

I take Pippen over Kobe tbh.

Understandable. Without Pippen there'd be no "MJ" in the sense we know him by now.

[Killakobe81]

I take Pippen over Kobe tbh.

Pippen embraced the role of #2 and made the best of it.

Kobe got dragged kicking and screaming as #2 and alienated a 3 time world champ.

you have a point but why wouldn't a Pippen a true #2, embrace the role he is best suited for? Kobe was meant to be a #1 ...but agre he should of been patient and waited for Shaq to age. But Shaq got lazy and fat and the beef was on ...

[lefty]

http://kobebryantisoverrated.webs.com/kobestillasidekick.htm

have you seen this site?
Greatest website ever :cry

[hater]

Kobe was meant to be a #1 ...

no he wasn't. that's lakerfan lore

[Killakobe81]

no he wasn't. that's lakerfan lore

Just because your name is "hater" doesnt mean you have to act like you don't know "ball" ...

[Spur_Fanatic]

Pippen or Kobe, but I'd go with Kobe.
Awesome #2 to Shaq, credit where cred is due.

[Giuseppe]

Pippen or Kobe, but I'd go with Kobe.
Awesome #2 to Shaq, credit where cred is due.

Kobe: 5

Daddy: 4

[Leetonidas]

http://kobebryantisoverrated.webs.com/kobestillasidekick.htm

have you seen this site?

Pertinent information, thanks bro! Funny stuff :lmao

[Giuseppe]

^:rolleyes

[Spur_Fanatic]

Kobe: 5

Daddy: 4

Dude, I'm praising Kobe and you still don't like it.

I don't get it. :(

[ambchang]

Yeah, and not reading the thread linked in my signature thus making the wrong conclusions further proved you lack reading comprehension, Dumbass. I should say why are you arguing with me? Maybe this thread needs to be about David Hassellhoff, it took a gif of him to shut you up in the other thread you wanted the last word in.
http://www.post-literate.com/gerpunx...-recursion.gif
First please learn how to quote.

Second, why is the onus on me to read a linked post in your signature to guess what you are trying to argue? I mean, you have already shown that you like to argue about arguments are arguable in a basketball forum, so you suddenly taking on a topic around David Hassellhoff is not all that shocking. It is your after, the master of forcing others to argue your point and your point only.

How is your leading sentence treating you? Why are you still debating? You stated in your leading sentence you do not want to debate.


Dumbass, It shows he wasn't a sidekick. Jordan and Pippen were number 1 and number 2. So were Shaq and Kobe, But the gap is close with the latter. not with the former. You act as if all #1's are #2's are equal. they aren't. Huge bit of flawed logic on your part. Being number 2 in Kobe's case is not the degradation of him you want it to be, and that kills much of your argument.

So Kobe creating his own shots doesn’t mean he is a sidekick? McHale created his own shots, Pippen created his own shots, Drexler created his own shots, Ginobili created his own shots, and yet they are all side kicks. And guess what the title is, it’s about ranking all the #2s, which in and of itself means that not all #2s are equal.

And since when was I degrading Kobe? He is the best #2 of all time. Above the ranks of McHale and Pippen, who are just some of my favourite players of all time.


See my quote above, there you go again, with your flawed logic, and we know you are the one that can't read. I proved that time and time again, and refuted you when you said I fail at reading comprehension.


Where did I say all #1s and #2s are the same?


God you are stupid. Did you even see what the point of that video was? no, we know you didn't because you fail at reading comprehension. Of course it isn't a proof. It's a start. Bring on the next video, maybe it supports you. If you don't get it now, you are hopeless. I started the proof, you finish it. If you look at all their games together, you could prove Kobe was a sidekick. go back and read my posts again, you idiot, and don't bring any silly tangents. Bring on the next video and start the proof. that's the point, do I need to say it again?

First off, a person not seeing a point in a video has nothing to do with reading comprehension. Second, you bringing in these tidbits of “proof” that shows nothing is pointless. I do not agree tidbits of Kobe creating his own shot is any indication that he is not a sidekick because:
a) It’s just a small sample, absolutely not enough to prove anything
b) Creating your own shot doesn’t mean you are not a sidekick.
Also, I don’t feel like bringing in videos. Why do I have to? You going on determining the rules again?


Of course you have no clue where this is going, you fail at reading comprehension! I'm not making any rules, you just can't read and debate!


You have your leading sentence about not wanting to debate, and yet you are debating, what the hell?


The fact that they relied on Russell for defense and rebounds still relegates him to a sidekick. First, Russell didn't get every rebound, or stop every center. Chamberlain ate him alive. No fast break when Wilt did his number on him. However, Bill had teammates that would outplay Wilt's teammates. Bill also had a coach that figured out the game years before any other coach did. Auerbach is the main reason Boston won. Not Bill Russell. John Wooden was the next coach that could build a dynasty. Then Red Holtzman.
Sure, I am not overly invested in this anyways. I am not going to act like a 60-year old guy to get creds on the internet like some pathetic low lives do.

[stretch]

lol ambchang crying like a total faggot

what else is new :rolleyes

[Nathan89]

you have a point but why wouldn't a Pippen a true #2, embrace the role he is best suited for? Kobe was meant to be a #1 ...but agre he should of been patient and waited for Shaq to age. But Shaq got lazy and fat and the beef was on ...

2006:rolleyes

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

lol ambchang crying like a total faggot

what else is new :rolleyes
LMAO/QFT




Cut/Snip/Shred



Told you I wasn't going to argue with you, you have no reading comprehension and aren't worth my time.

However, i did tell you if you respond it is because you want this thread to be about David Hasselhoff. Therefore, your wish is granted. This thread is now about David Hasselhoff:

http://s1115.photobucket.com/albums/k559/DaddyDiddy2011/
http://s1115.photobucket.com/albums/k559/DaddyDiddy2011/http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k559/DaddyDiddy2011/hasselhoffian-recursion.gif



http://s1115.photobucket.com/albums/k559/DaddyDiddy2011/
http://s1115.photobucket.com/albums/k559/DaddyDiddy2011/

[NewcastleKEG]

Link to Pippen losing in the Finals

Yeah thought so

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

More David Hasselhoff for ambchang

http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k559/DaddyDiddy2011/hasselhoffian-recursion.gif
http://22h22.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/David_Hasselhoff.jpeg

[Giuseppe]

Link to Pippen losing in the Finals

Yeah thought so

At least you finally showed back up.

tee, hee.