Cains Message: Not rich? No Job? Blame yourself

[Agloco]

Lol Hermann.

Lol electable.

Way to squash any momentum you might have had coming out of FL.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/05/cain-not-rich-no-job-blame-yourself/


If you're dissatisfied with the economy, or unemployed, Herman Cain thinks you should take a long, hard look in the mirror.

In an interview with the Wall Street Journal posted Wednesday, the up-and-coming GOP 2012 contender and former CEO of Godfather's Pizza summed up his bewilderment about recent demonstrations on Wall Street.

[boutons_deux]

working class, poor tea baggers and red-state bubbas suck this kind of shit down, even without cheese and bacon and bbq sauce on it.

5+ job seekers for every job offered.

Cain, and all you Repugs, just GFY.

[CosmicCowboy]

What exactly is wrong with what he said?

[JoeChalupa]

Nothing wrong with it at all. He won't win the nomination any how.

[boutons_deux]

Another supposedly smart right-winger claiming he doesn't know what the Wall St protests are about.

Another hate-govt right winger, like Jimmy Ricky, who worked in or for govt for a long time, getting paid with taxpayer dollars when taxes were a lot higher.

[MannyIsGod]

Considering what Wall St did, I think its OK to blame them. That doesn't mean you can't be introspective, but come the fuck on.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

He probably should've left out the "no job" bit, but I'm ok with what he said. Chris Gardner, anyone?

[MannyIsGod]

He probably should've left out the "no job" bit, but I'm ok with what he said. Chris Gardner, anyone?

Do you think Wall Street deserves blame?

[Agloco]

What exactly is wrong with what he said?

"It is not a person's fault because they succeeded. It is a person's fault if they failed." - Godfather Herm

Blanket statements such as these tbh. Herm's world is black and white. That's a dangerous mindset.

I don't really give a rats ass about the comment itself though. My point was really to say that he's unelectable.

[Yonivore]

Considering what Wall St did, I think its OK to blame them. That doesn't mean you can't be introspective, but come the fuck on.
Exactly what did Wall Street do?

Pay their CEOs too much? It's their money...Oh, and I seem to remember posting an article that pointed our the compensation packages for the top 25, of the Fortune 500 companies, did not amount to the more than $500 million dollars the Obama administration threw down the Solyndra money pit.

Not pay enough in taxes? Government constructed the tax code and businesses would do their stockholders a disservice to throw away money when they are playing by the rules that have been dictated.

Took TARP money? I seem to remember there was a meeting, during the Bush administration, where his Treasury Secretary, Paulson, current Treasury Secretary Tim Geigthner, FDIC Chair Sheila Blair, and Fed Chair Ben Bernanke strong-armed Wall Street Banks into taking TARP money (http://www.judicialwatch.org/news/2009/may/judicial-watch-forces-release-bank-bailout-documents). I said, at the time, they should have let the banks fail.

And, another thing, the "Occupy Wall Street" protests are doing less to big business than they are to the thousands of not-so-rich Wall Street employees just trying to eke out a living like the rest of us.

[Yonivore]

I'm a Cracker for Cain!

Here's the entire quote...


"When I was growing up I was blessed to have had parents. That didn't teach me to be jealous of anybody and didn't teach me to be jealous of somebody," Cain explained.

"It is not a person's fault because they succeeded. It is a person's fault if they failed. And so this is why I don't understand these demonstrations and what is it that they're looking for."
I think the point is; jealousy and blame won't put food on your plate.

[CosmicCowboy]

Basically he said that if things aren't going the way you want them to then take a hard look at yourself first. I think that is great advice.

Life is full of choices. The people that make good choices somehow always seem to be the "lucky" ones.

If you can't get a job, take a hard look at yourself and ask yourself why and what you can proactively do to increase your chances of getting a job instead of (making the choice) to sit on your ass and bitch about the bad economy.

[MannyIsGod]

Exactly what did Wall Street do?



I stopped reading here.

If you've got 2 hours to spare watch Inside Job. I know your aversion to reading so I won't recommend any books. Inside Job is the best delivery of the material I've come across in any case.

[MannyIsGod]

Basically he said that if things aren't going the way you want them to then take a hard look at yourself first. I think that is great advice.

Life is full of choices. The people that make good choices somehow always seem to be the "lucky" ones.

If you can't get a job, take a hard look at yourself and ask yourself why and what you can proactively do to increase your chances of getting a job instead of (making the choice) to sit on your ass and bitch about the bad economy.

I agree, I think that is damn good advice to individuals. But he also said not to blame Wall St. I have a huge problem with that.

I honestly think a lot of people in this country could use a huge dose of introspection. But I have a real problem with a presidential candidate letting Wall Street off the hook like that.

I don't have a problem with a politician telling you that when shit gets bad to sack up and just get things done. I would LOVE more of that, actually.

[Agloco]

If you can't get a job, take a hard look at yourself and ask yourself why and what you can proactively do to increase your chances of getting a job instead of (making the choice) to sit on your ass and bitch about the bad economy.

Yeah, I completely agree with the premise.

I problem I have is that somehow protesting and being proactive in job hunting are mutually exclusive in Herms mind.

[CosmicCowboy]

I agree, I think that is damn good advice to individuals. But he also said not to blame Wall St. I have a huge problem with that.

I honestly think a lot of people in this country could use a huge dose of introspection. But I have a real problem with a presidential candidate letting Wall Street off the hook like that.

I think we agree on this issue, I just think it's a matter of interpretation of what he said/meant. Basically I interpreted him to be saying don't blame your PERSONAL problems or lack of success on Wall Street. In other quotes I have read/heard Cain doesn't really let Wall street off the hook for contributing to the current state of the economy and clearly recognizes that money is influencing politics...thus his simple 999 tax change proposal.

[MannyIsGod]

Fair enough.

[Yonivore]

Yeah, I completely agree with the premise.

I problem I have is that somehow protesting and being proactive in job hunting are mutually exclusive in Herms mind.
Well, if you're "occupying Wall Street," you're not hunting for a job; are you?

[JoeChalupa]

9 9 9

[CosmicCowboy]

9 9 9

That plan is so creepy.

If you play it backwards it says over and over "Turn me on, dead man"

and of course, if you turn it upside down it is

6 6 6

Did Cain listen to the Beatles too much?

[xrayzebra]

Another supposedly smart right-winger claiming he doesn't know what the Wall St protests are about.

Another hate-govt right winger, like Jimmy Ricky, who worked in or for govt for a long time, getting paid with taxpayer dollars when taxes were a lot higher.


Maybe you would like to explain the incoherent ramblings of the the mob. Other than Obama is their man and he deserves re-election as
dictator in chief.

The "Occupy Wall Street" protesters have listed 13 proposed demands from their website.

Demand one: Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by ending "Freetrade" by re-imposing trade tariffs on all imported goods entering the American market to level the playing field for domestic family farming and domestic manufacturing as most nations that are dumping cheap products onto the American market have radical wage and environmental regulation advantages. Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr.

Demand two: Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. To do this all private insurers must be banned from the healthcare market as their only effect on the health of patients is to take money away from doctors, nurses and hospitals preventing them from doing their jobs and hand that money to wall st. investors.

Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.

Demand four: Free college education.

Demand five: Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand.

Demand six: One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now.

Demand seven: One trillion dollars in ecological restoration planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America's nuclear power plants.

Demand eight: Racial and gender equal rights amendment.

Demand nine: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live.

Demand ten: Bring American elections up to international standards of a paper ballot precinct counted and recounted in front of an independent and party observers system.

Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the "Books." World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the "Books." And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.

Demand twelve: Outlaw all credit reporting agencies.

Demand thirteen: Allow all workers to sign a ballot at any time during a union organizing campaign or at any time that represents their yeah or nay to having a union represent them in collective bargaining or to form a union.

These demands will create so many jobs it will be completely impossible to fill them without an open borders policy.

.....

Hey Boutons when are you hitting the streets?

[CosmicCowboy]

uhhh...that list isn't an official list. It was just posted by a nobody on a blog and got picked up by the media as being official.

[boutons_deux]

While I admire the people who are hitting the streets (to be hit by the white-shirted pigs), they won't accomplish anything unless they get people elected to Congress.

And since, unlike the tea baggers who had/have Kock Bros and other VRWC payers, the Occupy Wall St crowds don't have any financial backing.

Since America has been, is, always be for sale, no financial backing means no electoral results.

Their demands would do so much for jobs for Human-Americans, and for American.

Compare with Repugs' intentions and actions of pro-cyclical job destruction.

[Yonivore]

uhhh...that list isn't an official list. It was just posted by a nobody on a blog and got picked up by the media as being official.
They actually have one posted now.

First OFFICIAL Release from OCCUPY WALL STREET (User Submitted) (http://occupywallst.org/forum/first-official-release-from-occupy-wall-street/)

Looks to me like most of their grievances are self-inflicted or should be directed at government.

[Agloco]

Well, if you're "occupying Wall Street," you're not hunting for a job; are you?

Didn't we just get a reminder of how that can be done anywhere now?

[Agloco]

I think we agree on this issue, I just think it's a matter of interpretation of what he said/meant. Basically I interpreted him to be saying don't blame your PERSONAL problems or lack of success on Wall Street. In other quotes I have read/heard Cain doesn't really let Wall street off the hook for contributing to the current state of the economy and clearly recognizes that money is influencing politics...thus his simple 999 tax change proposal.

:tu

[boutons_deux]

"him to be saying don't blame your PERSONAL problems or lack of success on Wall Street"

what are these vague "personal problems" and why is Cain't-Be-Elected addressing them?

Certainly Wall St sucking up capital while restricting loans makes the work of real job creators, the entrepreneurs and small businesses, much more difficult if not impossible.

[hitmanyr2k]

Cain is an idiot. If you're going to win a general election (we all know he won't lol) you can't let one side off the hook and single out the other side. You have to assign blame all around. Siding with wall street and corporations right now is just plain dumb from a presidential candidate standpoint. That shit will play well with the Tea party crowd but it's going to kick you in the ass in a general election. Yeah we're in 2011 but to ignore the way Wall street's practices have had a residual effect on the economy and people's lives in general is beyond ignorant. It's not all black and white and not everyone protesting is jobless. Some of these guys just don't like where the country is going and are voicing their opinions. The same can be said about the Tea party. While some of that faction is rooted in racism some people are just genuinely scared where the country is headed and are voicing their opinion about it.

And I agree SOME people need to take a look in the mirror like people on this very board blaming hard working immigrants for "stealing" jobs from Americans because they think their entitled to be put first instead of sharpening their skill set. Regardless of someone's nationality if that person has more skills and is more qualified than you that's your fault.

[clambake]

uhhh...that list isn't an official list. It was just posted by a nobody on a blog and got picked up by the media as being official.

lol someone should reward his obedience.

[RandomGuy]

Exactly what did Wall Street do?

Pay their CEOs too much? It's their money...Oh, and I seem to remember posting an article that pointed our the compensation packages for the top 25, of the Fortune 500 companies, did not amount to the more than $500 million dollars the Obama administration threw down the Solyndra money pit.


The top ten best paid CEOs made more than $500M this year.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2011/12/ceo-compensation-11_land.html


Bosses are again feeling flush, receiving their first bump since 2006. Our top 500 executives earned $4.5 billion last year. How do those dollars break down?

It isn't "their" money it is their stockholders'.

Capitalism fail.

[RandomGuy]

They actually have one posted now.

First OFFICIAL Release from OCCUPY WALL STREET (User Submitted) (http://occupywallst.org/forum/first-official-release-from-occupy-wall-street/)

Looks to me like most of their grievances are self-inflicted or should be directed at government.

That isn't a list of demands, goober.

[CosmicCowboy]

That isn't a list of demands, goober.

The link to the demands (goals) is at the bottom of the page. The rest of us were apparently able to find it.

[ChumpDumper]

The link to the demands (goals) is at the bottom of the page. The rest of us were apparently able to find it.So who voted on this?

[CosmicCowboy]

So who voted on this?

It's their official website Chump. ask them.

[MannyIsGod]

It's their official website Chump. ask them.

Its actually a forum. Anyone can go on there and post. Its pretty much as official as any thread that someone puts OFFICIAL in on Spurstalk.

[Yonivore]

That isn't a list of demands, goober.
I didn't call them demands.

[CosmicCowboy]

Its actually a forum. Anyone can go on there and post. Its pretty much as official as any thread that someone puts OFFICIAL in on Spurstalk.

OK, then Manny, what do they want? :p:

[ChumpDumper]

It's their official website Chump. ask them.


Its actually a forum. Anyone can go on there and post. Its pretty much as official as any thread that someone puts OFFICIAL in on Spurstalk.:lmao

[MannyIsGod]

OK, then Manny, what do they want? :p:
I hate you.

[Wild Cobra]

What exactly is wrong with what he said?
That's what I'm wondering.

People need to better themselves for a better life, rather than expecting someone to hand it to them of a silver platter, or think someone is somehow holding them back.

[Wild Cobra]

Yeah, I completely agree with the premise.

I problem I have is that somehow protesting and being proactive in job hunting are mutually exclusive in Herms mind.
I think you should give him more credit than that. I don't see how he implied such a thing. Sure, in my opinion, some of the segments of "Wall Street" have done damage, but not "Wall Street" as a whole has not. Without addressing the root cause, such a protest is meaningless, except to make people feel like they are doing something.

[boutons_deux]

""Wall Street" as a whole has not."

proof? or just bias in favor the 1% fucking the 99%

"addressing the root cause"

which is, in your deeply evidenced opinion?

[Wild Cobra]

Cain is an idiot. If you're going to win a general election (we all know he won't lol) you can't let one side off the hook and single out the other side. You have to assign blame all around.
Just because you vote on that criteria doesn't mean the rest of us do. I like someone who just says as he thinks, instead of always being cautious of word choice.

[Wild Cobra]

The top ten best paid CEOs made more than $500M this year.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2011/12/ceo-compensation-11_land.html
careful...

Your jealousy is showing.

It isn't "their" money it is their stockholders'.

Capitalism fail.
Yet the majority shareholders are how sets their wages.

You fail.

[Blake]

I like someone who just says as he thinks, instead of always being cautious of word choice.

It sure makes it easier to root out idiots like Cain.

[Agloco]

I think you should give him more credit than that. I don't see how he implied such a thing. Sure, in my opinion, some of the segments of "Wall Street" have done damage, but not "Wall Street" as a whole has not. Without addressing the root cause, such a protest is meaningless, except to make people feel like they are doing something.

They don't address the root cause (segments of Wall Street) by protesting against the whole? Perhaps this gathering is not precise in its aims, but it's certainly not inaccurate.

[Agloco]

Just because you vote on that criteria doesn't mean the rest of us do. I like someone who just says as he thinks, instead of always being cautious of word choice.

I suppose that we're all fortunate you're in the vast minority.

[Wild Cobra]

I suppose that we're all fortunate you're in the vast minority.
Is that the case? When it comes time to vote, do you really know for fact how people around you voted? I don't. What insight might you have? Then again, may be my confirmation bias, and yours, since we tend to hang around people with similar views.

[Yonivore]

They don't address the root cause (segments of Wall Street) by protesting against the whole? Perhaps this gathering is not precise in its aims, but it's certainly not inaccurate.
I think we simply disagree on what is the root cause.

But, to your point, no, one generally gains nothing by shotgunning a whole sector and painting them as villains when, in fact, the vast majority of Wall Street businesses play by the rules, employ our workers, and pay the bills.

[Agloco]

Is that the case? When it comes time to vote, do you really know for fact how people around you voted? I don't. What insight might you have? Then again, may be my confirmation bias, and yours, since we tend to hang around people with similar views.

It based on precedent. Have you seen a cannon as loose as Cain elected to the highest office in modern times?

Do you honestly think he's going to win a general election WC?

[Agloco]

I think we simply disagree on what is the root cause.

But, to your point, no, one generally gains nothing by shotgunning a whole sector and painting them as villains when, in fact, the vast majority of Wall Street businesses play by the rules, employ our workers, and pay the bills.

Point taken. It not an easy picture to disassemble and put together again. They could use a more precise mission statement or whatever you call it.

[Wild Cobra]

It based on precedent. Have you seen a cannon as loose as Cain elected to the highest office in modern times?
I see some similarities to Reagan, in that he says things other politicians will not.

Do you honestly think he's going to win a general election WC?
No. I think he would if he made it to the general election, but I don't think he will win the primaries.

When it comes to the primary elections, and in the states that have open primaries, the democrats will also be voting for the republican nominee. This will probably produce a weak candidate to oppose Obama. It gave the republicans McCain last time. A very poor choice for conservatives to vote for.

[hitmanyr2k]

Just because you vote on that criteria doesn't mean the rest of us do. I like someone who just says as he thinks, instead of always being cautious of word choice.

It's not just word choice. I vote on a higher level of thinking where people don't see things in black and white and are willing to recognize multiple variables to a problem. What Cain said struck me as a person in his own little world ignorant of what people are actually going through in this country whether they're employed or not. I have no problem with one speaking his mind but what he said was just plain dumb.

[Yonivore]

Point taken. It not an easy picture to disassemble and put together again. They could use a more precise mission statement or whatever you call it.
Of course, I would suggest they take their grievances to the proper person or, better yet, go to work and start contributing to society instead of sucking the life out of every productive member that pays their taxes and fuels the economy that provides them the luxury to stand around Wall Street for days on end.

[Wild Cobra]

It's not just word choice. I vote on a higher level of thinking where people don't see things in black and white and are willing to recognize multiple variables to a problem. What Cain said struck me as a person in his own little world ignorant of what people are actually going through in this country whether they're employed or not. I have no problem with one speaking his mind but what he said was just plain dumb.
I disagree.

I think Cain knows better than you.

Life, in one way or another, is always throwing obstacles at us. I have found that generally, the people who blame others, instead of saying to themselves "what can I do to overcome this" don't get very far in life.

I'm pretty sure that Cain has had some huge obstacles he had to get past in his life. Especially his early life, when there was real racism rather than this pussy ass perceived racism.

[hitmanyr2k]

I disagree.

I think Cain knows better than you.

Life, in one way or another, is always throwing obstacles at us. I have found that generally, the people who blame others, instead of saying to themselves "what can I do to overcome this" don't get very far in life.

I'm pretty sure that Cain has had some huge obstacles he had to get past in his life. Especially his early life, when there was real racism rather than this pussy ass perceived racism.

Until Cain knows what every single one of those protesters have been through, if they have a job or not, or exactly what they're angrry about in the first place he really doesn't know shit and shouldn't speak as if he does. Refusing to acknowledge the problems that got the country to this state is ignorant. Both sides (U.S. citizens and wall street) have major problems...not just one.

[Yonivore]

Until Cain knows what every single one of those protesters have been through, if they have a job or not, or exactly what they're angrry about in the first place he really doesn't know shit and shouldn't speak as if he does. Refusing to acknowledge the problems that got the country to this state is ignorant. Both sides (U.S. citizens and wall street) have major problems...not just one.
I disagree, U.S. Citizens and Wall Street have the same, singular problem; government.

[Wild Cobra]

Until Cain knows what every single one of those protesters have been through, if they have a job or not, or exactly what they're angrry about in the first place he really doesn't know shit and shouldn't speak as if he does. Refusing to acknowledge the problems that got the country to this state is ignorant. Both sides (U.S. citizens and wall street) have major problems...not just one.
Nobody is saying we don't have problems. Time protesting is time lost for looking for work though, right? What good does protesting the vast institution of "wall street" do instead of the specific corporations to blame?

Focus people, focus!

[Wild Cobra]

I disagree, U.S. Citizens and Wall Street have the same, singular problem; government.
LOL...

Ain't that the truth. And liberals keep wanting more government, not realizing that is the problem and not the solution.

[djohn2oo8]

LOL...

Ain't that the truth. And liberals keep wanting more government, not realizing that is the problem and not the solution.

Less regulation = more corruption

[Yonivore]

Less regulation = more corruption
:lmao

Really? Politicians regulate to enrich themselves and pander to voting groups they hope to attract to the polls next election.

Why did the UAW deserve preferential treatment, over legitimate investors, in the bankruptcy of GM?

How did Obama's campaign bundler get moved ahead of others in the Solyndra bankruptcy?

Why is Christopher Dodd real estate rich?

Why do so many legislators go to Washington of relatively normal wealth, and leave millionaires?

Fuck, the list is too long...

Government regulation fosters corruption. Government regulation is the root of corruption.

Market competition will weed out the corrupt businessmen easier than voters appear to be rooting out the corrupt politicians.

Of what kind of corruption are you concerned? Unlike the government, private companies cannot take your money by force. You have to voluntarily engage in commerce (well, unless Obama's individual mandate passes constitutional muster the, all bets are off). You don't have to deal with a corrupt business.

And, if they're doing something illegal, there are laws to hold them accountable. But, I would argue it should only be illegal to dishonestly separate you from your money and to collude with others, over a finite resource, to artificially inflate prices.

[Wild Cobra]

Less regulation = more corruption
Who watches the watchers?

The payoffs just get bigger.

Besides, it's not enforcement i speak of as much as stupid regulations and excessive government. We need sensible regulations. Just not all we do have.

[Agloco]

Of course, I would suggest they take their grievances to the proper person or, better yet, go to work and start contributing to society instead of sucking the life out of every productive member that pays their taxes and fuels the economy that provides them the luxury to stand around Wall Street for days on end.

I'm thinking if that were possible, the need for protests and Cains Cannoneering would be obviated no?

So we're back to square one.

[Agloco]

I see some similarities to Reagan, in that he says things other politicians will not.

Reagan had a scalpel in his hand though. Cain has a hatchet.




No. I think he would if he made it to the general election, but I don't think he will win the primaries.

How many drinks have you had since lunch?

[Wild Cobra]

Reagan had a scalpel in his hand though. Cain has a hatchet.
That may be a correct analogy, but just the same. I like hearing a politician say things that are not controlled by handlers.

How many drinks have you had since lunch?
None.

Maybe that's my problem?

Haven't had any weed for a couple years either. Maybe I need to mellow out?

[Yonivore]

I'm thinking if that were possible, the need for protests and Cains Cannoneering would be obviated no?

So we're back to square one.
It is possible. The newspaper is full of help wanted ad every day. My seventeen year old went out and found a job in about three days.

If you're willing to work, there's a job for you.

[boutons_deux]

"If you're willing to work, there's a job for you."

YOU LIE

[baseline bum]

Reagan had a scalpel in his hand though. Cain has a hatchet.



How many drinks have you had since lunch?

Counting the current one?

[Agloco]

It is possible. The newspaper is full of help wanted ad every day. My seventeen year old went out and found a job in about three days.

If you're willing to work, there's a job for you.

That's great Yoni. I'm truly glad for your 17 year old.

Now how about that student who has 90k in debt after finishing his masters? You think he would be selected for that job your 17 year old just got? If he was, do you think his bills would be covered?

Lets discuss the kinds of jobs that are available.

[Agloco]

None.

Maybe that's my problem?

Haven't had any weed for a couple years either. Maybe I need to mellow out?

I'm just saying. Cain probably doesn't work for most people, even after a six pack.

[Yonivore]

That's great Yoni. I'm truly glad for your 17 year old.

Now how about that student who has 90k in debt after finishing his masters? You think he would be selected for that job your 17 year old just got? If he was, do you think his bills would be covered?
Maybe he should have majored in a job that was in demand. But, in any case, any job pays more than standing in the street.


Lets discuss the kinds of jobs that are available.
The paying kind.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Exactly what did Wall Street do?

Pay their CEOs too much? It's their money...Oh, and I seem to remember posting an article that pointed our the compensation packages for the top 25, of the Fortune 500 companies, did not amount to the more than $500 million dollars the Obama administration threw down the Solyndra money pit.

Not pay enough in taxes? Government constructed the tax code and businesses would do their stockholders a disservice to throw away money when they are playing by the rules that have been dictated.

Took TARP money? I seem to remember there was a meeting, during the Bush administration, where his Treasury Secretary, Paulson, current Treasury Secretary Tim Geigthner, FDIC Chair Sheila Blair, and Fed Chair Ben Bernanke strong-armed Wall Street Banks into taking TARP money (http://www.judicialwatch.org/news/2009/may/judicial-watch-forces-release-bank-bailout-documents). I said, at the time, they should have let the banks fail.

And, another thing, the "Occupy Wall Street" protests are doing less to big business than they are to the thousands of not-so-rich Wall Street employees just trying to eke out a living like the rest of us.

Well lets see.

1) They initially via Gramm and Clinton in 1996 wrote the legislation that gutted the Glass Steagal Act that FDR put in place.

2) Destroyed the housing market buy turning mortgages into 'investments' so that they could pass them off as speculation which caused the housing crisis.

3) Systematically lobbied the tax codes since the late 1970s campaign finance deregulations such as to make them a joke.

4) Leech 3% or so off of every 'credit' transaction off of vendors while charging high interest to borrowers and systematically trying to marginalize cash transactions as to try and get a stranglehold on the US means of exchange. this alone has a huge parasitic effect on the US economy.

5) Stymied any attempt to recoup the fuck up that Gramm and Clinton did 15 years ago by delaying, delegating and marginalizing any attempt of reregulation.

6) The largest bout of corporate welfare that i can think of that resulted in no net gain in the economy. Lending never picked up so it was an absolute waste of money on the part of the American taxpayer.

7) Marginalized entrepreneurs and industry the country over by dominating the method of exchange. high interest and still demands a high level of control. Anyone that has ever tried a high tech startup knows exactly what I am talking about.

8) Made consumer confidence tied to the stupid popularity contest that is the DowJones and then been the driving force behind the gross inflation of the stock values. 15:1 dividend ratios are considered good nowadays. Bloated bullshit.

Thats just off the top of my head im sure that there is more but I think thats a good start.

[Yonivore]

Well lets see.

1) They initially via Gramm and Clinton in 1996 wrote the legislation that gutted the Glass Steagal Act that FDR put in place.
Sounds like a government action.


2) Destroyed the housing market buy turning mortgages into 'investments' so that they could pass them off as speculation which caused the housing crisis.
See The Community Reinvestment Act and it's amendments. Oh, and check in with ACORN. They caused the mortgage industry to seek risk offsets that ended up failing.


3) Systematically lobbied the tax codes since the late 1970s campaign finance deregulations such as to make them a joke.
Sounds like a government function.


4) Leech 3% or so off of every 'credit' transaction off of vendors while charging high interest to borrowers and systematically trying to marginalize cash transactions as to try and get a stranglehold on the US means of exchange. this alone has a huge parasitic effect on the US economy.
All pursuant to agreements signed by all parties.

I don't use credit cards; neither should you.


5) Stymied any attempt to recoup the fuck up that Gramm and Clinton did 15 years ago by delaying, delegating and marginalizing any attempt of reregulation.
Again, sounds like you're describing a government failure.


6) The largest bout of corporate welfare that i can think of that resulted in no net gain in the economy. Lending never picked up so it was an absolute waste of money on the part of the American taxpayer.
Government.


7) Marginalized entrepreneurs and industry the country over by dominating the method of exchange. high interest and still demands a high level of control. Anyone that has ever tried a high tech startup knows exactly what I am talking about.
Business attempts to beat out competition. Wow, what an evil concept. If they break any laws, prosecute.


8) Made consumer confidence tied to the stupid popularity contest that is the DowJones and then been the driving force behind the gross inflation of the stock values. 15:1 dividend ratios are considered good nowadays. Bloated bullshit.
Legal or not? I'm not sure to what you're referring.


Thats just off the top of my head im sure that there is more but I think thats a good start.
Business is self-interested and acting within the law. Okay.

[Bill_Brasky]

It is possible. The newspaper is full of help wanted ad every day. My seventeen year old went out and found a job in about three days.

If you're willing to work, there's a job for you.

Oh wow :lol

$8/hr jobs dont cut it when youre a college grad with 50k+ of debt.

Lol thinking these people are lazy or uninspired when theyre standing up for what they believe in instead of sitting on a couch collecting welfare/unemployment. They just want a fair shake, same as you and I.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Sounds like a government action.


See The Community Reinvestment Act and it's amendments. Oh, and check in with ACORN. They caused the mortgage industry to seek risk offsets that ended up failing.


Sounds like a government function.


All pursuant to agreements signed by all parties.

I don't use credit cards; neither should you.


Again, sounds like you're describing a government failure.


Government.


Business attempts to beat out competition. Wow, what an evil concept. If they break any laws, prosecute.


Legal or not? I'm not sure to what you're referring.


Business is self-interested and acting within the law. Okay.

Having had friends that have been senatorial aids as well as working for various PACs just goes to show you have no idea how laws are contrived and negotiated. If you thin that Gramm's office drew up the draft that ended up in law then you are pretty dumb.

You clearly have no idea how PAC's and lawmaking synergize. Then again its like your trying to pass it off as completely out of the financial industry's hands.

Do you think that our reps get their political will from their constituents? Are you really that naive?

[Agloco]

Maybe he should have majored in a job that was in demand. But, in any case, any job pays more than standing in the street.


Sure. While he was at it, perhaps he should have looked into his crystal ball as well. A college freshman should have the insight to know what's going to be in demand 4-6 years out?


The paying kind.

90k of debt is now manageable with a Wal-Mart gig? Maybe I'm in the wrong profession.

[Spurminator]

Sounds like a government action.

Sounds like Wall Street influence on Government action which is exactly what these protests are about. It's not a Business vs. Government perspective.

[Yonivore]

Sounds like Wall Street influence on Government action which is exactly what these protests are about. It's not a Business vs. Government perspective.
Still sounds like a problem with government.

[ElNono]

:lmao

Really? Politicians regulate to enrich themselves

:lmao

Really? Lobbyists lobby to enrich the politicians and get the favors back.
Who pays the lobbyists?

[ElNono]

Still sounds like a problem with government.

Partially. The corruptor also shares responsibility.

[Yonivore]

Sure. While he was at it, perhaps he should have looked into his crystal ball as well. A college freshman should have the insight to know what's going to be in demand 4-6 years out?
Well, four years ago, I could have told you that lawyers wouldn't have job waiting for them. Yet, they continued to stream into law school

Yes, people need to give considerable thought into their future before they borrow money to get an education.


90k of debt is now manageable with a Wal-Mart gig? Maybe I'm in the wrong profession.
Maybe you shouldn't have gotten into $90K of debt before you knew how you were going to pay it back. And, $90K of debt is now manageable on a protesters salary?

Sorry, I've never relied on credit...except for my mortgage. And, I wouldn't have done that if houses weren't so goddamned expensive. As it is, I'm paying off a 15-year fixed rate in about 7 years.

[ElNono]

Personal anecdotes FTW

[Spurminator]

Still sounds like a problem with government.

It's a problem of government's relationship with Wall Street.

[Wild Cobra]

"If you're willing to work, there's a job for you."

YOU LIE

Wow...

A response in 8 minutes.

Did you try to find a job in that time frame?

[Wild Cobra]

I'm just saying. Cain probably doesn't work for most people, even after a six pack.
Well, he works for me. I like him and think he is presidential material.

[Wild Cobra]

Maybe he should have majored in a job that was in demand. But, in any case, any job pays more than standing in the street.

No shit.

Here people are, protesting Wall Street, when they really don't recognize the scam the education system can be. Besides, was the $90k debt towards a field that was in demand at the time, and projected to be in demand in the years later?

I don't know how many times I have noticed hyped ads over the years for an education in "X, Y , or Z," just to see in the years later, the grand design was to get a abundance of qualified graduates, so the wages could be lowered.

[Yonivore]

It's a problem of government's relationship with Wall Street.
You're not persuading me. Of the two, which has the power to force the other to act?

[Yonivore]

Back to the OP topic...

Lawrence O’Donnell lectures Herman Cain on how to be black in the segregated South (http://legalinsurrection.com/2011/10/lawrence-odonnell-lectures-herman-cain-on-how-to-be-black-in-the-segregated-south/)


Where do you think black people would be sitting on the bus today if Rosa Parks had followed your father’s advice [for Herman not to make trouble if told to sit in the back of the bus; my note, Cain was 9 years old at the time of Parks' act of defiance.]

You watched black college students from around the country and white college students from around the country come to the south and be murdered, fighting for the rights of African-Americans; do you regret sitting on the sidelines at that time?
Link to the entire interview at the site.

And this...

The Herman Cain Story (http://theothermccain.com/2011/10/06/the-herman-cain-story/)

Which ponders the question of why the "experts" are saying Cain is unelectable.

It also links to another blog that reprinted a readers e-mail recounting Cain's experience.


Herman Cain is running for president. He’s not a career politician (in fact he has never held political office). He’s known as a pizza guy, but there’s a lot more to him. He’s also a computer guy, a banker guy, and a rocket scientist guy.

Here’s his bio:
• Bachelor’s degree in Mathematics.
• Master’s degree in Computer Science.
• Mathematician for the Navy, where he worked on missile ballistics (making him a rocket scientist).
• Computer systems analyst for Coca-Cola.ENTAL
• VP of Corporate Data Systems and Services for Pillsbury (this is the top of the ladder in the computer world, being in charge of information systems for a major corporation).

All achieved before reaching the age of 35. Since he reached the top of the information systems world, he changed careers!
• Business Manager. Took charge of Pillsbury’s 400 Burger King restaurants in the Philadelphia area, which were the company’s poorest performers in the country. Spent the first nine months learning the business from the ground up, cooking hamburger and yes, cleaning toilets. After three years he had turned them into the company’s best performers.
• Godfather’s Pizza CEO. Was asked by Pillsbury to take charge of their Godfather’s Pizza chain (which was on the verge of bankruptcy). He made it profitable in 14 months.
• In 1988 he led a buyout of the Godfather’s Pizza chain from Pillsbury. He was now the owner of a restaurant chain. Again he reached the top of the ladder of another industry.
• He was also chairman of the National Restaurant Association during this time. This is a group that interacts with government on behalf of the restaurant industry, and it gave him political experience from the non-politician side.
Having reached the top of a second industry, he changed careers again!
• Adviser to the Federal Reserve System. Herman Cain went to work for the Federal Reserve Banking System advising them on how monetary policy changes would affect American businesses.
• Chairman of the Kansas City Federal Reserve Bank. He worked his way up to the chairmanship of a regional Federal Reserve bank. This is only one step below the chairmanship of the entire Federal Reserve System (the top banking position in the country). This position allowed him to see how monetary policy is made from the inside, and understand the political forces that impact the monetary system.
After reaching the top of the banking industry, he changed careers for a fourth time!
• Writer and public speaker. He then started to write and speak on leadership. His books include Speak as a Leader, CEO of Self, Leadership is Common Sense, and They Think You're Stupid.
• Radio Host. Around 2007—after a remarkable 40 year career—he started hosting a radio show on WSB in Atlanta (the largest talk radio station in the country).

He did all this starting from rock bottom (his father was a chauffeur and his mother was a maid). When you add up his accomplishments in his life—including reaching the top of three unrelated industries: information systems, business management, and banking—Herman Cain may have the most impressive resume of anyone that has run for the presidency in the last half century.
Cain is, by far, the most qualified person to seek the office in several generations.

I'm a Cracker for Cain!

[boutons_deux]

"Cain is, by far, the most qualified person to seek the office in several generations."

YOU LIE

[Agloco]

Which ponders the question of why the "experts" are saying Cain is unelectable.

An honest listen to a few of his soundbytes should cure what ails you.




Cain is, by far, the most qualified person to seek the office in several generations.

Agreed. Yet he remains unelectable.

[Yonivore]

An honest listen to a few of his soundbytes should cure what ails you.
His soundbytes are no worse than any other politician on either side of the aisle. You could assemble 3 hours of Obama soundbytes that make him look like an absolute idiot but, alas, he was elected -- even when he lacked the basic qualifications to be an executive.


Agreed. Yet he remains unelectable.
I agreed with you when Cain was at 8% just like I thought Obama was unelectable when he trailed Hillary Clinton.

Things change.

I think more attention only makes Cain a stronger candidate, not a weaker one.

I'm a Cracker for Cain!

[Agloco]

His soundbytes are no worse than any other politician on either side of the aisle. You could assemble 3 hours of Obama soundbytes that make him look like an absolute idiot but, alas, he was elected -- even when he lacked the basic qualifications to be an executive.


True, but unlike Obamas bytes, Cains need not be cherry-picked. There's a steady dose of "WTF" in virtually every sentence.




I agreed with you when Cain was at 8% just like I thought Obama was unelectable when he trailed Hillary Clinton.

Things change.

I think more attention only makes Cain a stronger candidate, not a weaker one.

Sure, but once gotten it needs to be the correct kind of attention. Here is where his mouth will ultimately betray him.


I'm a Cracker for Cain!

Were you also a Cracker for Godfathers Pizza?

[boutons_deux]

Cain will wilt under close scrutiny, not bloom, just like Jimmy Ricky propaganda and lies about TX exposed him as a dumb fraud.

He'll need $1B+ to win. The Repug/VRWC moneybags won't give it to him.

[Yonivore]

True, but unlike Obamas bytes, Cains need not be cherry-picked. There's a steady dose of "WTF" in virtually every sentence.
We disagree. But, oh well. Whatever Cain is saying that turns you off, he has successfully turned more than one business around, bringing it back from the brink and making it successful.

If his ideas work that, I'm willing to let him try them out on government. I don't care how crazy you think he sounds.


Sure, but once gotten it needs to be the correct kind of attention. Here is where his mouth will ultimately betray him.
We shall see.


Were you also a Cracker for Godfathers Pizza?
Not a big pizza eater.

[Agloco]

Well, he works for me. I like him and think he is presidential material.

:tu

[CosmicCowboy]

I like Cain because he is the only candidate out there with the balls to take on our fucked up tax system. 999 is clean, simple, and easily enforceable. Congress would REALLY hate it.

[TDMVPDPOY]

ppl complaining, maybe shouldve throught about a career in politics, thats where the money and incentives are at, have you seen some of the packages they get compared to ur private industry worker...fkn these guys give themselves raises more then CPI inflation, yet when the avg person goes ask for a pay rise, they get the gtfo look.

[Yonivore]

I like Cain because he is the only candidate out there with the balls to take on our fucked up tax system. 999 is clean, simple, and easily enforceable. Congress would REALLY hate it.
It's also the gateway to a FairTax system where the federal government is completely funded by a consumption tax.

[boutons_deux]

9 9 9

cost shifts taxes from 1%, wealthy, corps to the 99%

[coyotes_geek]

I like Cain because he is the only candidate out there with the balls to take on our fucked up tax system. 999 is clean, simple, and easily enforceable. Congress would REALLY hate it.

Yep. Without tax loopholes to sell off, how are congresscritters supposed to attract campaign contributions?

[CosmicCowboy]

9 9 9

cost shifts taxes from 1%, wealthy, corps to the 99%

Like GE that currently doesn't pay any taxes at all?

[ChumpDumper]

yoni's got a new flavor of the week.

[Yonivore]

Like GE that currently doesn't pay any taxes at all?
Under the 9 9 9 plan, they'd pay 9% corporate tax.

[RandomGuy]

I... think [Herman Cain] is presidential material.

:lol

A guy who doesn't feel the need to do research to justify an opinion, liking a guy who starts a sentence with "I don't have the facts to back this up, but..."

:rollin

Wheeeee!

[CosmicCowboy]

:lol

A guy who doesn't feel the need to do research to justify an opinion, liking a guy who starts a sentence with "I don't have the facts to back this up, but..."

:rollin

Wheeeee!

Yeah, he might be too honest. Unlike Obama, who states shit as fact all the time that isn't true. But hey...he's on your blue team...that makes it OK.

[Yonivore]

I think the Republican establishment wants Romney -- or Perry, if he can get his shit together. But, at this point in the 2008 race, the Democrat establishment wanted Hillary.

If, by chance, Cain makes it as the Republican nominee -- and, if he doesn't, it won't be because of anything anyone on the left says -- I think he has a good chance of beating Obama in the general election.

Republicans and Tea Party member will vote for him and the left is chasing off Jews, blacks and the center with their anti-Jew rhetoric, high unemployment rate, and their generally crazy leftist agenda of "big government good - big business bad."

[George Gervin's Afro]

Yeah, he might be too honest. Unlike Obama, who states shit as fact all the time that isn't true. But hey...he's on your blue team...that makes it OK.

now cc is telling us obama is the first president to eeeevvvvvvvvvvveeeer to be loose with the facts when maikng a cliam....

so I guess that this means this is the first time a president has ever 'lied'... how did I miss it?:rolleyes

[CosmicCowboy]

now cc is telling us obama is the first president to eeeevvvvvvvvvvveeeer to be loose with the facts when maikng a cliam....

so I guess that this means this is the first time a president has ever 'lied'... how did I miss it?:rolleyes

keep whacking that straw man, shithead.

[George Gervin's Afro]

I think the Republican establishment wants Romney -- or Perry, if he can get his shit together. But, at this point in the 2008 race, the Democrat establishment wanted Hillary.

If, by chance, Cain makes it as the Republican nominee -- and, if he doesn't, it won't be because of anything anyone on the left says -- I think he has a good chance of beating Obama in the general election.

Republicans and Tea Party member will vote for him and the left is chasing off Jews, blacks and the center with their anti-Jew rhetoric, high unemployment rate, and their generally crazy leftist agenda of "big government good - big business bad."

hey Random this is exactly what you were talking about...right on cue for Yoni..:lmao

[George Gervin's Afro]

keep whacking that straw man, shithead.

I'm outraged at this revelation!

[ChumpDumper]

If, by chance, Cain makes it as the Republican nominee -- and, if he doesn't, it won't be because of anything anyone on the left saysRight, it will be because of what Cain says.

You really are smitten with this black man.

[Yonivore]

I don't know why I can't access the page on Zogby's site but, webcache had it.
IBOPE Zogby Poll: Cain Expands Lead Over GOP Field & Leads Obama, 46%-44% (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.zogby.com/news/2011/10/06/ibope-zogby-poll-cain-expands-lead-over-gop-field-leads-obama-46-44/)


Obama Approval Steady at 41%
UTICA, NY--Herman Cain has opened up a 20 percentage point lead among likely Republican primary voters in the race for the Presidential nomination, and also holds a narrow lead among all likely voters over President Barack Obama.
That's 20 percentage points over Mitt Romney - 38% - 18%.

and, WTF? I thought we were in a post-racial period...

Fireworks: MSNBC's Lawrence O'Donnell's Hostile Interview With Herman Cain (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/10/06/fireworks_msnbcs_lawrence_odonnell_hostile_intervi ew_with_herman_cain.html)


O'Donnell tried to paint Cain as some sort of traitor to blacks because he didn't participate in protests and sit-ins during the Civil Rights era.

"I did not insult the intelligence of all black Americans," Herman Cain said about his 'brainwashing' comment. "I insulted the attitude of those that will not consider an alternate idea." He also said black voters "did not consider my statement insulting because a lot of them are thinking for themselves."

"Now, if they want to talk about insulting, they need to look at the president when he talks to the Congressional Black Caucus and insulted black people, in my opinion, by telling them to take off their slippers and put on their marching boots when he has had nothing but failed policies," Cain said in response to Lawrence accusing him of insulting black Americans.
I'm a Cracker for Cain!

[Yonivore]

Also, please note the primaries are coming early this year. Romney, Perry, et. al. don't have much time to reverse this trend.

[cheguevara]

:lmao american dream: everyone can be millionaire.

[Yonivore]

:lmao american dream: anyone can be millionaire.
There, fixed it for you.

[cheguevara]

:lmao american dream: anyone can be a millionaire

ppl still eat that shit up? :lol

[ChumpDumper]

Why isn't yoni a millionaire?

[cheguevara]

btw by millionaire I mean multi-millionaire. Anyone can come up with a pathetic 1.2, 1.8 million dollars, that don't mean shit in this day and age.

[boutons_deux]

Cain is a purchased shill for the VRWC, Kock Bros division:

Why Herman Cain Is The Koch Brothers’ Favorite Presidential Candidate

Herman Cain’s rise from niche radio host to presidential frontrunner appears to have been largely fueled by the Koch network. From Cain’s early foray into politics to his presidential campaign speeches to his top staff, the former pizza executive has had close, consistent ties with the Koch Brothers.

www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/676951/why_herman_cain_is_the_koch_brothers’_favorite_pre sidential_candidate/

[ElNono]

yoni, Cobra, etc. will definitely fight for them. Who's going to throw them a bone otherwise?

[Yonivore]

:lmao american dream: anyone can be a millionaire

ppl still eat that shit up? :lol
Because it's true.

Anyone that works hard, makes the right choices, and takes advantage of the right opportunities can be a millionaire in the United States of America.

Of course, those who don't believe that never will.

[cheguevara]

:lol do you believe in Santa Claus too? :lol

[Yonivore]

btw by millionaire I mean multi-millionaire. Anyone can come up with a pathetic 1.2, 1.8 million dollars, that don't mean shit in this day and age.
Your goalpost not mine.

I would just counter that anyone can be wealthy in America.

[Yonivore]

:lol do you believe in Santa Claus too? :lol
Okay, who, in American, can't become wealthy?

[cheguevara]

like I said anyone can make a measly 1.8 million. that don't mean shit when you have your retirement and children's collegue education to look forward to.

for the ppl in the 2 million club to go up to the 5+ million club is virtually impossible. again, to get into the entry level "millionaire club" is pretty much impossible.

And no, even if you 'take advantage of the right opportunities and work hard' that won't matter.

[cheguevara]

Okay, who, in American, can't become wealthy?

A. Come from rich family
B. Be that 1 in 1000 person who is destined to be a millionaire by a combination of luck and genius.

that disqualifies 99.9% of the population which means your statement "anyone can be a millionaire" is retarded.

[ElNono]

If it's so easy how come yoni didn't make the right choices yet? :lol

[CosmicCowboy]

A. Come from rich family
B. Be that 1 in 1000 person who is destined to be a millionaire by a combination of luck and genius.

that disqualifies 99.9% of the population which means your statement "anyone can be a millionaire" is retarded.

Actually, it's not that difficult. You just have to save money and build assets. Lets say you work from 25-65...that gives you 40 years of earning capacity to compound your savings.

[CosmicCowboy]

Actually, everyone SHOULD set their goal to be a millionaire. It takes that much just to retire in decent fashion.

[ElNono]

Actually, it's not that difficult. You just have to save money and build assets. Lets say you work from 25-65...that gives you 40 years of earning capacity to compound your savings.

And hope you can work all those 40 years, and that your savings ain't going down the drain in some market collapse, and that you're healthy, and a plethora of other variables...

[CosmicCowboy]

And hope you can work all those 40 years, and that your savings ain't going down the drain in some market collapse, and that you're healthy, and a plethora of other variables...

Yeah you're right. Lets just give up. It's just not worth trying. Fuck those lucky rich people.

[ElNono]

Actually, everyone SHOULD set their goal to be a millionaire. It takes that much just to retire in decent fashion.

This I agree with. You should always aim for the moon, at least early on.

[ElNono]

Yeah you're right. Lets just give up. It's just not worth trying. Fuck those lucky rich people.

Not what I said.Nice strawman though.

[Yonivore]

like I said anyone can make a measly 1.8 million. that don't mean shit when you have your retirement and children's collegue education to look forward to.

for the ppl in the 2 million club to go up to the 5+ million club is virtually impossible. again, to get into the entry level "millionaire club" is pretty much impossible.

And no, even if you 'take advantage of the right opportunities and work hard' that won't matter.
Hold on, you're getting off topic.

If not anyone can get wealthy in America, who are they? Who are the people that do not have the American dream available to them?

[Yonivore]

A. Come from rich family
Someone in the family wasn't always rich.


B. Be that 1 in 1000 person who is destined to be a millionaire by a combination of luck and genius.
Luck is just preparation meeting opportunity. You can plan to be lucky or you can plan to be unlucky. Take your pick.


that disqualifies 99.9% of the population which means your statement "anyone can be a millionaire" is retarded.
Okay, which of the 99.9% can't become wealthy?

[cheguevara]

Okay, which of the 99.9% can't become wealthy?

the ones that aren't

currently the # of ppl with 5 or more million dollars in USA is around 1 million persons. that means 99.9% of population is not in that club.

[JohnnyMarzetti]

This Cain guy flips and flops more than Romney.

[Yonivore]

the ones that aren't
Becoming wealthy takes time and energy. It doesn't just happen.


currently the # of ppl with 5 or more million dollars in USA is around 1 million persons. that means 99.9% of population is not in that club.
Whatever your statistic is, I can point to one of those millionaires and demonstrate he is identically situated, or once was, to any person you believe is incapable of becoming wealthy.

[cheguevara]

Becoming wealthy takes time and energy. It doesn't just happen.


and only 1% have a real chance at making it. not anyone :tu

[Yonivore]

and only 1% have a real chance at making it. not anyone :tu
Anyone can be in that 1% -- and, to be fair, it's a bit bigger than 1%.

[Agloco]

Because it's true.

Anyone that works hard, makes the right choices, and takes advantage of the right opportunities can be a millionaire in the United States of America.

Sure, I could also win Pick 5 if I played long enough. The odds seem fairly similar tbh.



Actually, it's not that difficult. You just have to save money and build assets. Lets say you work from 25-65...that gives you 40 years of earning capacity to compound your savings.

I don't suppose anything could happen during those 40 years to change this utopian gameplan?

[Yonivore]

Sure, I could also win Pick 5 if I played long enough. The odds seem fairly similar tbh.
Except, with life, the odds are largely determined by your choices.


I don't suppose anything could happen during those 40 years to change this utopian gameplan?
Absolutely. And, a lot of times it does. Sometimes because of your choices and sometimes because of the choices of others. Smart people spend their lives trying to make good choices and trying to avoid the consequences of other people's bad choices. Many times, they're successful...and, in America, there is no accident of birth preventing you from being wealthy or successful.

No one is claiming everyone can become wealthy.

There is a difference.

[ElNono]

Except, with life, the odds are largely determined by your choices.

MegaMillions or PowerBall? decisions, decisions :lol

[Agloco]

Except, with life, the odds are largely determined by your choices.

Debatable, but point taken.

[Yonivore]

Debatable, but point taken.
Largely but, I admit, not always.

What I would add is that, until you die, there is always the chance you can realize success.

[CosmicCowboy]

and only 1% have a real chance at making it. not anyone :tu

you can become a millionaire on a $50,000 a year salary. It just takes willpower.

[Agloco]

you can become a millionaire on a $50,000 a year salary. It just takes willpower.

Oversimplification. That's really where the divide begins. Though I don't necessarily disagree with the idea you've posted, I do disagree with how it's packaged.

A la Cain.

[CosmicCowboy]

Oversimplification. That's really where the divide begins. Though I don't necessarily disagree with the idea you've posted, I do disagree with how it's packaged.

A la Cain.

OK, willpower and planning. You spend less than you make and let your savings and investments compound. Be the ant and not the grasshopper and just hope the government doesn't steal too much of your stash to feed the grasshoppers.

[ElNono]

OK, willpower and planning. You spend less than you make and let your savings and investments compound. Be the ant and not the grasshopper and just hope the government doesn't steal too much of your stash to feed the grasshoppers.

A grasshoppers post! Now we're talking :lol

[Wild Cobra]

Yep. Without tax loopholes to sell off, how are congresscritters supposed to attract campaign contributions?

They might actually have to get contributions from their constituents.

[Wild Cobra]

Actually, everyone SHOULD set their goal to be a millionaire. It takes that much just to retire in decent fashion.
No shit. I still have a ways to go on my retirement account before I'm comfortable to retire.

[Wild Cobra]

And hope you can work all those 40 years, and that your savings ain't going down the drain in some market collapse, and that you're healthy, and a plethora of other variables...
If you place it in a retirement plan, you are not required to liquidate any of it for debt owed. If you invest $200 a month for 40 years and earn 3% above inflation, my value in todays dollars at the end of 40 years is $183k. Sure, not a millionaire, but add that to SS benifits and you are better off than someone who doesn't plan for the future. I started investing later in life than I should have and will probably have just short of $1 million by todays dollars when I retire. However, if I were to invest 15% of my average wages since I was out of the military, I would probably have over $2 million by todays dollars.

[ElNono]

my value in todays dollars at the end of 40 years is $183k. Sure, not a millionaire

I think this resumes your post nicely. $183K is not even close to a millionaire.

And the point I was making with that post, which apparently flew right above your head, is that different people have different situations. Not always the seemingly right decisions, are the right decisions. Hindsight is always 20/20.

Then there's the difference of the guy that starts off with a $60K loan behind his back vs the rich kid that has no such weight. If you take both as being as equally hard worker, intelligent and the like, there's no doubt who is going to have the toughest road, and who might not be able to start saving at 25.

Market crashes, job market conditions. If monetary success would only entail making the "right decisions", then a whole lot more people would be millionaires.

[Yonivore]

Fact is, if everyone of us had started saving 5-10% of our income, with our first job, and never changed the habit, we could all be millionaires by age 65.

[ElNono]

Fact is, if everyone of us had started saving 5-10% of our income, with our first job, and never changed the habit, we could all be millionaires by age 65.

Not even close. $1 million / 40 years = $25000 savings a year = $2000 savings a month (rounded). $2000/mo in savings being 5% of your salary means your salary is $40K/mo. At 10%, your salary would be $20K/mo. That's a pretty fucking good salary.

And that figure doesn't even include adjustment for inflation, taxes, SS, etc. and only factors $1 million.

Basically, yoni talking out of his ass again.

[Yonivore]

Not even close. $1 million / 40 years = $25000 savings a year = $2000 savings a month (rounded). $2000/mo in savings being 5% of your salary means your salary is $40K/mo. At 10%, your salary would be $20K/mo. That's a pretty fucking good salary.

And that figure doesn't even include adjustment for inflation, taxes, SS, etc. and only factors $1 million.

Basically, yoni talking out of his ass again.
Damn, I peeked.

You've obviously never heard of interest.

A person saving $250.00 a month can reach a million dollars in 51 years at 6% interest, 42 at 8%, and 35 at 10%. Invest your savings wisely and you could, in fact be a millionaire at retirement. I will be; if not sooner.

Love your math skills.

[ElNono]

Damn, I peeked.

You've obviously never heard of interest.

You've obviously never heard of inflation.


A person saving $250.00 a month can reach a million dollars in 51 years at 6% interest, 42 at 8%, and 35 at 10%. Invest your savings wisely and you could, in fact be a millionaire at retirement. I will be; if not sooner.

Love your math skills.

My math skills are fine. Those interest rates are over the inflation rate.
Inflation between 1960-2011 = 665.4%, or an average of 13% / year.

Which means you needed 19% interest for 51 years, 21% for 42, 23% for 35. Now tell me what kind of investment gives you those returns consistently over a 51/42/35 year span.

Thanks for playing.

[ElNono]

Heck, I'll settle if you find me anything with a consistent return of a 10% interest rate over 35 years. So, yeah, not even close.

[Yonivore]

Heck, I'll settle if you find me anything with a consistent return of a 10% interest rate over 35 years. So, yeah, not even close.
I know I'm going to regret re-engaging you.


http://getrichslowly.org/images/stowerschart.jpg

[ElNono]

I know I'm going to regret re-engaging you.

I didn't ask for probabilities. Buying a $1 ticket buys me odds to be a millionaire too. You said it was a fact that saving 5% or 10% on every paycheck would make all of us millionaires. Fact implies certainty.

I'm calling you out on your claim. What's more, if you want to remain "engaged" I'm not going to let you dodge addressing inflation.

I couldn't care less what you regret, tbh. I didn't ask you to answer.

[Wild Cobra]

I think this resumes your post nicely. $183K is not even close to a millionaire.

And the point I was making with that post, which apparently flew right above your head, is that different people have different situations. Not always the seemingly right decisions, are the right decisions. Hindsight is always 20/20.

Then there's the difference of the guy that starts off with a $60K loan behind his back vs the rich kid that has no such weight. If you take both as being as equally hard worker, intelligent and the like, there's no doubt who is going to have the toughest road, and who might not be able to start saving at 25.

Market crashes, job market conditions. If monetary success would only entail making the "right decisions", then a whole lot more people would be millionaires.
Has nobody ever told you that life isn't fair? We have to do the best we can with the hand we are dealt with in life. Blaming others, or asking the government to legally steal from others is flat out wrong. the bottom line is, we are responsible for ourselves.

[Wild Cobra]

Not even close. $1 million / 40 years = $25000 savings a year = $2000 savings a month (rounded). $2000/mo in savings being 5% of your salary means your salary is $40K/mo. At 10%, your salary would be $20K/mo. That's a pretty fucking good salary.

And that figure doesn't even include adjustment for inflation, taxes, SS, etc. and only factors $1 million.

Basically, yoni talking out of his ass again.
Do you understand compound interest, and the fact that the market historically exceeds inflation?

Remember, he didn't index it to inflation.

If you make $50k annual, invest 7.5% of your wages per month at a 8% APR market gain annual, you make a million out of it in 40 years.

[Yonivore]

Has nobody ever told you that life isn't fair? We have to do the best we can with the hand we are dealt with in life. Blaming others, or asking the government to legally steal from others is flat out wrong. the bottom line is, we are responsible for ourselves.
Actually, the website from which I gipped that one-time $10,000 dollar investment chart was showing the chart as the follow up to an anecdote about a theoretical one-time investment in 1932.

For the first 4 quarters the $10,000 would have lost 69% of its value but, if the investor had stayed in the market, it would have realized an average of over 14% over the next 29 years...finally being worth a half million in 30 years. $10,000 is less than $250.00 per month for 10 years so, let's say you start at $250.00 a month and in 10 years you have $30,000. If you left it alone, it would historically realize at least 12-14% but, if you keep investing $250.00 per month for another 30 years, it would be over a million.

Also, inflation only devalues the money. It's still a fucking million dollars or more. I wasn't talking about buying power.

[ElNono]

Has nobody ever told you that life isn't fair?

You still haven't told me what your point is. We all know life isn't fair. Nobody here, as far as I can tell, is advocating stealing from anybody.

What is the message you intend to pass along?

[ElNono]

Do you understand compound interest, and the fact that the market historically exceeds inflation?

Remember, he didn't index it to inflation.

If you make $50k annual, invest 7.5% of your wages per month at a 8% APR market gain annual, you make a million out of it in 40 years.

No, he said it was a fact. The market is far, far from a certainty. Nasdaq is -6.54% YTD, S&P -8.12% YTD, Dow -4.10% YTD, not only it wasn't an 8% gain, it didn't even catch up to inflation.

In order for the compound interest to work you need to make at least that 8% gain every year.

Theory is always nice, but when you look at the numbers there's an actual reason why only 1% of the population make it.

[ElNono]

Actually, the website from which I gipped that one-time $10,000 dollar investment chart was showing the chart as the follow up to an anecdote about a theoretical one-time investment in 1932.

For the first 4 quarters the $10,000 would have lost 69% of its value but, if the investor had stayed in the market, it would have realized an average of over 14% over the next 29 years...finally being worth a half million in 30 years. $10,000 is less than $250.00 per month for 10 years so, let's say you start at $250.00 a month and in 10 years you have $30,000. If you left it alone, it would historically realize at least 12-14% but, if you keep investing $250.00 per month for another 30 years, it would be over a million.

Also, inflation only devalues the money. It's still a fucking million dollars or more. I wasn't talking about buying power.

So it's not a fact that you can become a millionaire by saving 5%-10% of your paycheck.... didn't think it was.

[Wild Cobra]

No, he said it was a fact. The market is far, far from a certainty. Nasdaq is -6.54% YTD, S&P -8.12% YTD, Dow -4.10% YTD, not only it wasn't an 8% gain, it didn't even catch up to inflation.

In order for the compound interest to work you need to make at least that 8% gain every year.

Theory is always nice, but when you look at the numbers there's an actual reason why only 1% of the population make it.
Nice to know you live in a static world.

[Agloco]

OK, willpower and planning.

Keep going. The list is quite long.

[Agloco]

Edit....wrong thread.

[ElNono]

Nice to know you live in a static world.

Compound interest doesn't wait for the rebound. The money you didn't make this year, you'll have to make up next year + interest to reach your goal. That's why a lot of baby boomers are freaking out and not retiring when they thought they would.

Nice to know you don't know your economics.

[CosmicCowboy]

Compound interest doesn't wait for the rebound. The money you didn't make this year, you'll have to make up next year + interest to reach your goal. That's why a lot of baby boomers are freaking out and not retiring when they thought they would.

Nice to know you don't know your economics.

Actually, El Nono, a 25 year old today has an excellent chance of having a million dollars of savings by the time they retire. The way the US is borrowing and printing money it might even be easy. Of course, by then, a loaf of bread may cost $1000.

[CosmicCowboy]

Compound interest doesn't wait for the rebound. The money you didn't make this year, you'll have to make up next year + interest to reach your goal. That's why a lot of baby boomers are freaking out and not retiring when they thought they would.

Nice to know you don't know your economics.

Plus, you are acting like the only way you can make money is the stock market. Everyone needs housing and if you buy you can turn that monthly housing expense into equity. Also, once you DO save some money you can use that money + brains/initiative to make more money. I started a company as a second job back in the 90's using nothing but credit and sold my share 5 years later for $300,000. Basically I took a financial risk and then invested about 20 additional hours a week of my time. There are a lot of ways to build net worth if you work at it.

[ElNono]

Actually, El Nono, a 25 year old today has an excellent chance of having a million dollars of savings by the time they retire. The way the US is borrowing and printing money it might even be easy. Of course, by then, a loaf of bread may cost $1000.

Exactly what I mean by "adjusted for inflation". I didn't take that out of the equation.


Plus, you are acting like the only way you can make money is the stock market. Everyone needs housing and if you buy you can turn that monthly housing expense into equity. Also, once you DO save some money you can use that money + brains/initiative to make more money. I started a company as a second job back in the 90's using nothing but credit and sold my share 5 years later for $300,000. Basically I took a financial risk and then invested about 20 additional hours a week of my time. There are a lot of ways to build net worth if you work at it.

Actually, I'm the one saying that the stock market isn't guaranteed to give you the kind of returns that are being claimed here (offset by inflation) to make the premise presented here work (or pass as 'fact').

I'm a (minority) business owner too and completely agree there's different ways to make your money. I specifically mentioned in the past I prefer investing in 'brick' than in the market. Or temporarily gold to offset inflation when the economy is in shambles. And obviously, having a good business will help you get there too.

But I also know that getting there requires more than just making the "right choices". You need some resources, a good amount of luck and brainpower, the right people surrounding you and the economic situation around has to be the good too. Even then, life sometimes hits you in the balls too.

I'm nowhere near being a millionaire. I don't stress over it either. I just work hard because that's mostly what I can control. What's really idiotic is people selling you the fairy tale of "it only takes right choices and saving 5%-10% of your salary". That's a magic bullet. There's no such thing or the number of really wealthy and successful people will be way above 1%.

[Wild Cobra]

Exactly what I mean by "adjusted for inflation". I didn't take that out of the equation.

There is no way to predict future stock growth, but long term has been something like 5% above inflation. I guess I should stop using moderate examples, and make extreme examples so your counter arguments make sense.

[Agloco]

But I also know that getting there requires more than just making the "right choices". You need some resources, a good amount of luck and brainpower, the right people surrounding you and the economic situation around has to be the good too. Even then, life sometimes hits you in the balls too.

I'm nowhere near being a millionaire. I don't stress over it either. I just work hard because that's mostly what I can control. What's really idiotic is people selling you the fairy tale of "it only takes right choices and saving 5%-10% of your salary". That's a magic bullet. There's no such thing or the number of really wealthy and successful people will be way above 1%.

:tu

[Agloco]

A person saving $250.00 a month can reach a million dollars in 51 years at 6% interest, 42 at 8%, and 35 at 10%.

:lol

[ElNono]

There is no way to predict future stock growth, but long term has been something like 5% above inflation. I guess I should stop using moderate examples, and make extreme examples so your counter arguments make sense.

That's exactly why such claims are not facts, but mere predictions.

We agree.

[boutons_deux]

Human-Americans hauling in the filthy lucre, because this is Yoni's America

U.S. incomes ‘fell more after than during recession’

US household incomes fell more in the two years following the end of the recession than during the downturn itself, according to a New York Times report published on its website.

A study by two former Census Bureau officials said inflation-adjusted income fell 6.7 percent, to $49,909, between June 2009 — when the recession ended — and June 2011, the newspaper said.

During the recession — from December 2007 to June 2009 — household incomes fell less than half of that, 3.2 percent, according to the report.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/10/10/u-s-incomes-fell-more-after-than-during-recession/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheRawStory+%28The+Raw+Story% 29

========

And it's all their criminalized, loser faults for not grabbing the numerous, on-the-table-just-dying-to-be-grabbed opportunities to be millionaires. Anybody Can Do It in The Land of Yoni Opportunity!

Cain won't kill everybody's Able-ity to become millionaires. :lol

[boutons_deux]

Pressed About His Plan To Raise Taxes On Food, Herman Cain Says Poor People Should Just Buy Used Goods

In response to sharp questioning from the moderators and his fellow contenders about the effects of his plan, which would raise taxes on common food items to pay for a massive corporate tax cut, Cain seemed to have settled on a simple solution: the poor should just eat used food and buy used goods.

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/10/12/341817/cain-food-used/

=======

Cain grovelling for nigga votes

[Agloco]

Pressed About His Plan To Raise Taxes On Food, Herman Cain Says Poor People Should Just Buy Used Goods

In response to sharp questioning from the moderators and his fellow contenders about the effects of his plan, which would raise taxes on common food items to pay for a massive corporate tax cut, Cain seemed to have settled on a simple solution: the poor should just eat used food and buy used goods.

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/10/12/341817/cain-food-used/

=======

Cain grovelling for nigga votes

Used food? :wtf

Yeah, there's not a steady dose of WTF in every line is there?

lol unelectable

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

:lol
He's actually right tbh. Only problem being that saving for 51+ years means you're retiring at around age 70 (assuming you entered the workforce in the 18-20 range like most do) and an investment that maintains a steady 6% rate over 51 years isn't certain when there are unforeseen events like the 2008 crash that probably fucked with your investment.


The 35 years @ 10% thing is wrong tho assuming my math is right.

[scott]

Used food? :wtf


We all produced used food, sometimes multiple times a day. Doesn't look or smell too tasty though.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

And yeah 51 years from now $1,000,000 isn't gonna be worth anything close to what it's worth today. It certainly won't be enough to retire on.

[Agloco]

He's actually right tbh. Only problem being that saving for 51+ years means you're retiring at around age 70 (assuming you entered the workforce in the 18-20 range like most do) and an investment that maintains a steady 6% rate over 51 years isn't certain when there are unforeseen events like the 2008 crash that probably fucked with your investment.


The 35 years @ 10% thing is wrong tho assuming my math is right.

Ya, hence the :lol

Didn't bother to check the math on 35 years though. Probably more :lol

[Agloco]

We all produced used food, sometimes multiple times a day. Doesn't look or smell too tasty though.

Soylent Brown anyone?

[Heath Ledger]

you can watch inside job here http://www.movie2k.to/movie-525565-Inside-Job-film.html

[Wild Cobra]

Used food? :wtf

Yeah, there's not a steady dose of WTF in every line is there?

lol unelectable
Was there some kind of a mistake made? I can see charging tax of prepared food and maybe ready to cook foods, but not necessities.

Now I notice the video starts in the middle of the question. I think some context is missing.

[CosmicCowboy]

Was there some kind of a mistake made? I can see charging tax of prepared food and maybe ready to cook foods, but not necessities.

Now I notice the video starts in the middle of the question. I think some context is missing.

That's how the sales tax works in Texas. Things that are considered life essential (like un-prepared food at the grocery store) are not taxed. Fast food and prepared food in restaurants is taxed.

[Wild Cobra]

That's how the sales tax works in Texas. Things that are considered life essential (like un-prepared food at the grocery store) are not taxed. Fast food and prepared food in restaurants is taxed.
What do you think of the video starting after the question started, and not hearing the whole question?

[CosmicCowboy]

Meh...not going to speculate without any info.

[Agloco]

Was there some kind of a mistake made? I can see charging tax of prepared food and maybe ready to cook foods, but not necessities.

Now I notice the video starts in the middle of the question. I think some context is missing.

I'm willing to entertain that possibility. I wonder if the entire clip is available somewhere?

[Agloco]

It's only a matter of time.......

rofl Herman.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20121269-503544.html


Presidential contender Herman Cain was joking when he promised his administration would build a 20 foot electrified fence on the border with Mexico to keep out illegal immigrants.

At a pair of campaign stops in Tennessee on Saturday, Cain said the United States has an immigration crisis and he would be willing to put U.S. troops on the border in addition to the barbed-wire fence with a sign that says "it will kill you -- warning," the New York Times reported.

Seemed quite serious to me tbh.

[RandomGuy]

Not even close. $1 million / 40 years = $25000 savings a year = $2000 savings a month (rounded). $2000/mo in savings being 5% of your salary means your salary is $40K/mo. At 10%, your salary would be $20K/mo. That's a pretty fucking good salary.

And that figure doesn't even include adjustment for inflation, taxes, SS, etc. and only factors $1 million.

Basically, yoni talking out of his ass again.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/math/e/0/c/e0ca87a82c591a0e0610792963751fd5.png
Basic equation. Do that for each cash chunk, slowly reducing the number of periods of compounding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_interest

A more advanced equation, that shows how to calculate a series of cash flows and their compounding:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/math/d/7/a/d7af15f8d99a97fe9253563e650ff97b.png


1.FV(A) is the value of the annuity at time = n
2.A is the value of the individual payments in each compounding period
3.i is the interest rate that would be compounded for each period of time
4.n is the number of payment periods

It gets wickedly more complex, but that should do it. (reasonably sure about the underlying equations, I usually let excel handle it)

(edit)
Best to make the periods into months, and break the interest rate out into a monthly rate as well, to be a bit more reflective of reality.-RG
(end edit)

To get to $1,000,000 in forty years at 6% return (over inflation) would require a constant saving of about $500 per month, or about $1100/month at 3% return.

My best guess is that your average 18 year old will need somewhere on the order of about $2M by the time they hit 65 to retire at a minimal level.

Health care costs are going to royally fuck a lot of people, who planned on being somewhat healthy when they get to that point, but who are ending up in reality being much sicker than they had saved for.

[RandomGuy]

I know I'm going to regret re-engaging you.


http://getrichslowly.org/images/stowerschart.jpg

I would buy that a lot more if the components of the DJIA were held constant over that period of time.

The fact that they adjust the components, dropping laggards, adding strong/large companies, tends to skew it, to my understanding.

The principle does hold though: The longer the time period the easier it is to get an overall consitant return, and the US stock markets have been remarkably consistant over the last decades that people have been paying attention.

Still, the only thing certain is change, and I am not entirely sure the next 40 years are going to see the DJIA returns anywhere near 10%. Unless of course they re-jigger the index, a LOT.

[Agloco]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/math/e/0/c/e0ca87a82c591a0e0610792963751fd5.png
Basic equation. Do that for each cash chunk, slowly reducing the number of periods of compounding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_interest

A more advanced equation, that shows how to calculate a series of cash flows and their compounding:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/math/d/7/a/d7af15f8d99a97fe9253563e650ff97b.png

:wow

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

My best guess is that your average 18 year old will need somewhere on the order of about $2M by the time they hit 65 to retire at a minimal level.
This is a pretty generous estimate tbh, 45-50 years from now I think you might need a lot more than $2M to retire.

[RandomGuy]

This is a pretty generous estimate tbh, 45-50 years from now I think you might need a lot more than $2M to retire.

(edit)

A good rough sketch can be had for anyone using a nifty little online calculator at Yahoo personal finance:

http://finance.yahoo.com/calculator/retirement/ret02

[RandomGuy]

This is a pretty generous estimate tbh, 45-50 years from now I think you might need a lot more than $2M to retire.

No, actually it isn't.

Remember that when you start drawing on the money, the first few years gets you drawing down mostly interest, making the pile of cash seem a lot larger.

If you try out the calculator, they do a rather good little graph that shows this effect.

If you want to see what effect that interest has, then set the "post-retirement return" to zero.

If my post-retirement return is the same 8% that I got before, then I only need about 2.5M. If that is zero, then the required figure jumps to $6M

(both assume no social security, an unlikely assumption)